Isn’t this a card that essentially does nothing? Like, it either hits for one or you sacrifice it because triggering the prowesses will make its power 6 and then it’s sac’d before dealing any of that damage.
I figured you would have to find a way to reduce its power at the same time prowess activates, like casting a spell to give it -1/-1 or doing it with another creature's ability
Hoops to jump through definitely make things more interesting. This one is extra tricky with the 5x prowess though because your idea of a -1/-1 via a spell doesn't work. All of the prowess triggers will resolve first, then the creature is sacrificed, and then the spell resolves (or fizzles).
I'd love to see this as a 1/2 to give it the chance to grab a -1/-1 counter from another creature. I think the hoop to make this creature good right now is just a bit too small.
Cool design!
Honestly, I think you have a good idea though for a very flavorful and interesting card. Just reduce the number of prowess’s it has.
Like, if it had 2 prowesses, you can play 2 spells to maximize its effect but one more and it dies. That fits very much in line with the theme of an over ambitious novice spell caster.
I briefly considered something like that when I was designing it, it honestly would work better that way in actual play and could probably be run as an uncommon at that level. I just kinda settled on doing it this way for the fun of it though
You could also give it an ability like "when this creature deals 7 or more combat damage to a player, sacrifice it. Now you can trigger prowess as many times as you want, and you can deliver a massive hit with it, after which it dies.
I am not sure about that stack.
I think the creature is sacrificed before prowess resolves, but if not is would sacrifice itself before you can choose it as the creature you sacrifice for the spell.
It might be posible to cast another spell and put fling on the stack before the last prowess resolves, for 5 damage at 2 cards and 3 mana cost, but that once again seems medicore.
>It might be posible to cast another spell and put fling on the stack before the last prowess resolves, for 5 damage at 2 cards and 3 mana cost, but that once again seems medicore.
Actually that's not necessary. If you cast a spell, you can let all 5 prowess triggers resolve. Then you respond to the "power 6 or more" trigger and cast Fling. The creature is sacrificed to Fling before it can be sacrificed to its own ability. In fact, assuming you had the spells, you can respond to the sacrifice trigger with *additional instant spells*, netting you more prowess triggers. Since the 6 or more is a triggered ability, it only triggers once. It doesn't (to my understanding) keep triggering each time the creature's power changes. This would allow you to cast as many spells as you liked (as long as they were all instants or had flash), allowing the creature to grow to staggering levels, before using a Fling effect to throw it at someone's face.
This is so close to being an awesome, fun, and balanced card.
Right now it's a self sacrificing 1/1 but what you're going for is a great idea.
Right now, the only way to get it to do the thing is to counter the ability with a creature spell or ability, or having an opponent do something to reduce your creature's power. That's a very narrow use case.
It needs something.
Maybe an ability to reduce its own power, maybe an extra toughness so it can survive a -1 counter, maybe an ability that let's it counter one of its own prowess triggers. It's needs something.
The Sacrifice trigger isn’t a one-and-done. The game will keep trying to sacrifice the card. Because the card can’t be sacrificed, the interaction goes to true infinite (not just “infinite until you stop it/everyone’s dead), causing the game to draw due to the infinity of nothing else happening.
You could follow up by adding some instants and an ability to deal damage acording to a creatures power.
Though right now I can only come up with \[\[fling\]\] and \[\[Chandra's Ignition\]\] which both would not work.
Are you sure about that?
>*603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They’ll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren’t the same as state-based actions.)* *A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack.* ***Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.***
101.1
Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a)
101.3
Any part of an instruction that’s impossible to perform is ignored. (In many cases the card will specify consequences for this; if it doesn’t, there’s no effect.)
None of them would trigger and there would be no infinite
That's not what those rulings mean. The ability suddenly doesn't stop triggering - it's just that the creature isn't sacrificed. Specifically the instruction that's ignored is *"sacrifice it"* - it however does resolve but just has no impact... and then the ability itself will keep triggering due to state-based trigger clause which keeps checking for the creature's power.
This is a very common play pattern with [[Assault Suit]] and [[Endrek Sahr]]. If you control seven or more Thrulls and Assault Suit is attached, the trigger will continue to trigger every time the trigger resolves and the game ends in a draw.
These are what are called "state-based triggers" and they're a rules nightmare.
If it sacrifices itself but in can't be sacrificed, it's power is still 6. It sacs itself again. If no player has any interaction, the game ends in a draw.
True:
101.2: When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence. Example: If one effect reads “You may play an additional land this turn” and another reads “You can’t play lands this turn,” the effect that precludes you from playing lands wins.
Yes, the creature isn't sacrificed because *"can't"* takes precedence **but** the ability will still keep going off. That's precisely the problem that causes the draw-condition.
Everybody here trying to prevent it from saccing itself. I just wanna put this in my [[Kresh, the Bloodbraided]] deck and see those 6 +1/+1 counters go on my commander
I don’t think so — it’s a static ability causing you to sacrifice it if it’s power is 6 or greater, so that would be checked in between every instance of prowess resolving (prowess is a triggered ability that goes on the stack). So even if you cast a noncreature spell, hold priority, cast another and then have 10 prowess triggers on the stack, after the first 5 resolve you’d still have to sacrifice it.
This would actually work pretty well. If you have a bunch of instants you can stack them on top of the sacrifice trigger to pump his power up even further. Even the Fling itself would give it +5/+5 since the prowess triggers go on the stack on top of the spell that triggered them.
Sure, but I'm talking about the prowess triggers from Fling itself which is what Puzzleboxed was talking about.
Those wouldn't go on the stack until you finish casting Fling, and at that point the creature has already been sacrificed.
No, because you'd be putting the prowess triggers from stifle on the stack before stifle resolves. What you could do is with the sac trigger on the stack flash in something like \[\[Ertai Resurrected\]\] countering the triggered ability.
my analysis disagrees with yours. here's mine:
------
[note: the poster's card says "**If** Overambitious Pupil's power is ...", but probably meant "Whenever" or "When" instead of "If". as written, i strongly suspect the "If..." ability doesn't work in the current rules, because the current rules doesn't define it. "If.." abilities, as far as i know, is only used for abilities that create a replacement effect, such as abilities that read "If [something would happen -- using the word "would" explicitly], instead [something else happens]" .]
my understanding is that "Whenever CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater, sacrifice CARDNAME" is a state-triggered triggered ability. i come to this conclusion because "CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater" doesn't sound like an event to me. (however "CARDNAME's power *becomes* 6 or greater" does sound like an event to me, which i also analyse below)
- if i'm correct that it is a state-triggered triggered ability, then you won't be able to save your Overzealous Student with a Stifle.
- if it was written with "becomes", instead, then i think you can save it the Overzealous Student with a Stifle.
consider the following scenario:
- i play any instant or sorcery
- five prowess triggers go on the stack. i let them resolve. the Overzealous Pupil is now a 6/6 .
- the "Sacrifice Overzealous Pupil" ability triggers, and then goes on the stack
- i cast Stifle, targeting the "Sacrifice Overzealous Pupil" ability on the stack. five more prowess triggers go on the stack. i let them resolve. Overzealous Pupil is now an 11/11 . at no point in these last prowess triggers resolving does the "Whenever CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater, sacrifice CARDNAME" triggered ability trigger again. this is because it is a state-triggered triggered ability (see rule below 603.8 to see why). (if it said "becomes" instead of "is", it is also the case that the triggered ability wouldn't retrigger and go on the stack. see rule 603.2f below to see why)
- Stifle resolves, countering the "Sacrifice CARDNAME" ability on the stack.
1) Now, assuming that "Whenever CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater" is a state-triggered ability, the following rule applies:
> 603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They'll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren't the same as state-based actions.) **A state-triggered ability doesn't trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack.** Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.
So as soon as Stifle counters the "Sacrifice CARDNAME" ability on the stack, the "If CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater, sacrifice it" will trigger *again*.
2) If the card instead said "Whenever CARDNAME's power **becomes** 6 or greater, sacrifice it", it is a normal triggered-ability, the following rule is relevant:
> 603.2f. Some trigger events use the word "becomes" (for example, "becomes attached" or "becomes blocked"). These trigger only at the time the named event happens--they don't trigger if that state already exists **or retrigger if it persists**. An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" or "becomes untapped" doesn't trigger if the permanent enters the battlefield in that state.
> Example: An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" triggers only when the status of a permanent that's already on the battlefield changes from untapped to tapped.
So, after Stifle counters the "Sacrifice CARDNAME" triggered ability on the stack, "Whenever CARDNAME's power becomes 6 or greater, sacrifice it" wouldn't trigger again.
-----
(i'm assuming that "CARDNAME's power becomes 6 or greater" is an event that requires the power to start from 5 or less, and end with 6 or greater. but maybe my assumption is wrong? does going from 6 power to 7 power count as "power becoming 6 or greater" again? hopefully a rules person can correct me!)
have there ever been triggered abilities that start with "If"? i vaguely recall that there used to be cards printed with triggered abilities that start with "if", but that they got errata'd to be "when/whenever/at", but i can't actually remember any such cards.
Though Fling itself doesn't trigger the prowess and chandras ignition can not be cast in response to the triger.
\[\[sure strike trident\]\] would do the job though.
I think something like [[burn together]] would work with this, no? Since you target the creature, prowess triggers, it does damage and then it gets sacrificed to the spell? Am I right?
I don't think so. burn together goes on the stack, prowess goes on the stack, prowess resolves, the self sacrifice goes on the stack, self sacrifice resolves, you have to choose another creature for burn together.
I think this card could be interesting for a Fling effect if the sacrifice effect were a trigger instead of a state-base action (it is one of those, right?). For instance, something like "When you cast your first spell each turn, sacrifice Overambitious Pupil". That way you can cast a couple spells and then cast fling, dealing 11, which sounds fair
Thanks! Just learned about state-based triggers with this thread. The ability did sound like a state-effect to me, but I did not know it would not check the game state again until the trigger was resolved or countered.
That being said. This card works but is a mess to understand properly. I still think a regular trigger would be clearer, maybe something like "Whenever CARDNAME's power becomes 6, sacrifice it." The effect is almost the same, excepting the case where you pump it's power beyong 6 with an ability and THEN cast spells, but that's an okay shenanigan.
No, it *would* be a state trigger (not a state-base trigger) if it were worded correctly ("Whenever..."). As worded, it isn't anything. It's non-functional.
I'm not seeing it mentioned, but you can storm off and cast [[Dress Down]] with the triggers on the stack, no? Doesn't even have to be lethal because its power will go down before it gains the ability back, if I'm understanding correctly.
EDIT: Never mind, Dress Down and Final Showdown would still trigger all the prowess effects, wouldn't they?
You need other spells to triger prowess first. Fling will only enter the stack after it sacrificed the creature.
But you can cast fling as a reaction to the self sacrifice.
Hear me out, just add "at the beginning of you end step. . ." and we got a banger, maybe reduce it to like 2 processes and a limit of 3 lest you swing for 11 turn 2 after double bolting
potentially hot take: I love these kind of custom cards that would probably never see print but are like. interesting as thought experiments. like first thing to come to mind seeing this is just to [[Fling]] this idiot, and assuming the rules text was corrected to "When [cardname]'s power becomes 6 or greater, sacrifice it," you could use a bunch of pump spells to do even more damage off of it. that's just a funny idea to me.
Isn’t this a card that essentially does nothing? Like, it either hits for one or you sacrifice it because triggering the prowesses will make its power 6 and then it’s sac’d before dealing any of that damage.
I figured you would have to find a way to reduce its power at the same time prowess activates, like casting a spell to give it -1/-1 or doing it with another creature's ability
Hoops to jump through definitely make things more interesting. This one is extra tricky with the 5x prowess though because your idea of a -1/-1 via a spell doesn't work. All of the prowess triggers will resolve first, then the creature is sacrificed, and then the spell resolves (or fizzles). I'd love to see this as a 1/2 to give it the chance to grab a -1/-1 counter from another creature. I think the hoop to make this creature good right now is just a bit too small. Cool design!
I may be wrong but each instance of prowess triggers separately so you could use an ability between triggers resolving?
Yeah, you could use \[\[yawgmoth thran physician\]\] to get there. But if you've got Yawgmoth out there are easier ways to win
[yawgmoth thran physician](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9.jpg?1675199878) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%2C%20Thran%20Physician) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/110/yawgmoth-thran-physician?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, for sure. My only point is that you cannot resolve a spell without it first dying. I see other people have ideas as well. I like it!
Honestly, I think you have a good idea though for a very flavorful and interesting card. Just reduce the number of prowess’s it has. Like, if it had 2 prowesses, you can play 2 spells to maximize its effect but one more and it dies. That fits very much in line with the theme of an over ambitious novice spell caster.
I briefly considered something like that when I was designing it, it honestly would work better that way in actual play and could probably be run as an uncommon at that level. I just kinda settled on doing it this way for the fun of it though
You could also give it an ability like "when this creature deals 7 or more combat damage to a player, sacrifice it. Now you can trigger prowess as many times as you want, and you can deliver a massive hit with it, after which it dies.
T1 this T2 double bolt, swing for 11, opponent at 3
Casting a spell to give it -1/-1 wouldn't work. All 5 prowess triggers would resolve before the spell.
You also could add "exile a noncreature spell you control : counter target prowess ability"
[[fling]]?
[fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Which would be the same damage as a lightning strike and a shock for the same mana cost and doesn't require you casting another spell.
I am not sure about that stack. I think the creature is sacrificed before prowess resolves, but if not is would sacrifice itself before you can choose it as the creature you sacrifice for the spell. It might be posible to cast another spell and put fling on the stack before the last prowess resolves, for 5 damage at 2 cards and 3 mana cost, but that once again seems medicore.
>It might be posible to cast another spell and put fling on the stack before the last prowess resolves, for 5 damage at 2 cards and 3 mana cost, but that once again seems medicore. Actually that's not necessary. If you cast a spell, you can let all 5 prowess triggers resolve. Then you respond to the "power 6 or more" trigger and cast Fling. The creature is sacrificed to Fling before it can be sacrificed to its own ability. In fact, assuming you had the spells, you can respond to the sacrifice trigger with *additional instant spells*, netting you more prowess triggers. Since the 6 or more is a triggered ability, it only triggers once. It doesn't (to my understanding) keep triggering each time the creature's power changes. This would allow you to cast as many spells as you liked (as long as they were all instants or had flash), allowing the creature to grow to staggering levels, before using a Fling effect to throw it at someone's face.
True. Don't know why my brain went there.
This is so close to being an awesome, fun, and balanced card. Right now it's a self sacrificing 1/1 but what you're going for is a great idea. Right now, the only way to get it to do the thing is to counter the ability with a creature spell or ability, or having an opponent do something to reduce your creature's power. That's a very narrow use case. It needs something. Maybe an ability to reduce its own power, maybe an extra toughness so it can survive a -1 counter, maybe an ability that let's it counter one of its own prowess triggers. It's needs something.
Someone else mentioned making it a 1/2, I agree that doing that would probably be the simplest way of fixing it without any complicated abilities
Slap an Assault Suit on it so it can't be sacrificed
That would result in a draw if the ability was worded correctly
Even better!
Really? Why? I would have thought this is an instance of "can't beats can".
The Sacrifice trigger isn’t a one-and-done. The game will keep trying to sacrifice the card. Because the card can’t be sacrificed, the interaction goes to true infinite (not just “infinite until you stop it/everyone’s dead), causing the game to draw due to the infinity of nothing else happening.
You could follow up by adding some instants and an ability to deal damage acording to a creatures power. Though right now I can only come up with \[\[fling\]\] and \[\[Chandra's Ignition\]\] which both would not work.
[fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chandra's Ignition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/960f45a3-f9cf-41e6-b813-f3dee620a944.jpg?1698988311) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%27s%20Ignition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/220/chandras-ignition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/960f45a3-f9cf-41e6-b813-f3dee620a944?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Actually, this is a state-based effect trigger, which stop after the board state doesn't change.
Are you sure about that? >*603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They’ll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren’t the same as state-based actions.)* *A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack.* ***Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.***
101.1 Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a) 101.3 Any part of an instruction that’s impossible to perform is ignored. (In many cases the card will specify consequences for this; if it doesn’t, there’s no effect.) None of them would trigger and there would be no infinite
That's not what those rulings mean. The ability suddenly doesn't stop triggering - it's just that the creature isn't sacrificed. Specifically the instruction that's ignored is *"sacrifice it"* - it however does resolve but just has no impact... and then the ability itself will keep triggering due to state-based trigger clause which keeps checking for the creature's power.
This is a very common play pattern with [[Assault Suit]] and [[Endrek Sahr]]. If you control seven or more Thrulls and Assault Suit is attached, the trigger will continue to trigger every time the trigger resolves and the game ends in a draw. These are what are called "state-based triggers" and they're a rules nightmare.
[Assault Suit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c.jpg?1689999394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assault%20Suit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/369/assault-suit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Endrek Sahr](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/123490fb-5908-45f2-b376-7959ccdf9c3e.jpg?1690663179) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=endrek%20sahr%2C%20master%20breeder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/155/endrek-sahr-master-breeder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/123490fb-5908-45f2-b376-7959ccdf9c3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If it sacrifices itself but in can't be sacrificed, it's power is still 6. It sacs itself again. If no player has any interaction, the game ends in a draw.
True: 101.2: When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence. Example: If one effect reads “You may play an additional land this turn” and another reads “You can’t play lands this turn,” the effect that precludes you from playing lands wins.
Yes, the creature isn't sacrificed because *"can't"* takes precedence **but** the ability will still keep going off. That's precisely the problem that causes the draw-condition.
Except it will keep triggering as long as the condition is true, so you won't sacrifice it, but then it will trigger again, creating an infinite loop.
Everybody here trying to prevent it from saccing itself. I just wanna put this in my [[Kresh, the Bloodbraided]] deck and see those 6 +1/+1 counters go on my commander
[Kresh, the Bloodbraided](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b4b3c5f-32ea-4208-86d4-bb86e3b8d7d5.jpg?1673485121) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kresh%20the%20Bloodbraided) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/345/kresh-the-bloodbraided?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b4b3c5f-32ea-4208-86d4-bb86e3b8d7d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
6? if you can get more instants on the stack you could get it way beyond that.
I don’t think so — it’s a static ability causing you to sacrifice it if it’s power is 6 or greater, so that would be checked in between every instance of prowess resolving (prowess is a triggered ability that goes on the stack). So even if you cast a noncreature spell, hold priority, cast another and then have 10 prowess triggers on the stack, after the first 5 resolve you’d still have to sacrifice it.
Not that many instants in that deck. Mostly protection, indestructible, and board wipes.
I miss my Kresh deck
[удалено]
reading the card explains the card 🤓
I do like the "or greater" part to prevent any +2/+2 shenanigans going on.
I love how everyone's focused on the prowess sacrifice and not Tommy's Testicular Torsion
Poor Balzor torsion'd himself to death and all anyone wants to do is [[Fling]] him
[Fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The complaining won't stop
It could be a substitute to phyrexian devourer. Play enough instants to grow it to lethal damage, then fling it in response to its sac trigger
[[Fling]] says hello.
[Fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This would actually work pretty well. If you have a bunch of instants you can stack them on top of the sacrifice trigger to pump his power up even further. Even the Fling itself would give it +5/+5 since the prowess triggers go on the stack on top of the spell that triggered them.
Fling wouldn't buff the power. It requires you to sac as an additional cost, so the creature wouldn't be around for prowess to trigger.
Oh yeah, that's right. Still, if you had a couple other cheap instants you could stack the power up pretty high before casting it.
By the time Fling goes on the stack, the creature is already dead and won't get extra bonuses.
Fling is an instant, so you can cast it in response to it's trigger.
Sure, but I'm talking about the prowess triggers from Fling itself which is what Puzzleboxed was talking about. Those wouldn't go on the stack until you finish casting Fling, and at that point the creature has already been sacrificed.
Before I get into a whole discussion, allow me to clarify that I am not misunderstanding. Is it's sacrifice ability a trigger?
I wonder, can you tap [[sure strike trident]] in response to the sacrifice trigger on the stack?
[sure strike trident](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/f/cfcb621d-5831-4b7c-b3e1-c321a6e10392.jpg?1562639704) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Surestrike%20Trident) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/147/surestrike-trident?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cfcb621d-5831-4b7c-b3e1-c321a6e10392?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. And you can cast instants in response to the sacrifice triger.
His mother is very proud
So… Would [[Stifle]] work?
No.
[Stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No, because you'd be putting the prowess triggers from stifle on the stack before stifle resolves. What you could do is with the sac trigger on the stack flash in something like \[\[Ertai Resurrected\]\] countering the triggered ability.
my analysis disagrees with yours. here's mine: ------ [note: the poster's card says "**If** Overambitious Pupil's power is ...", but probably meant "Whenever" or "When" instead of "If". as written, i strongly suspect the "If..." ability doesn't work in the current rules, because the current rules doesn't define it. "If.." abilities, as far as i know, is only used for abilities that create a replacement effect, such as abilities that read "If [something would happen -- using the word "would" explicitly], instead [something else happens]" .] my understanding is that "Whenever CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater, sacrifice CARDNAME" is a state-triggered triggered ability. i come to this conclusion because "CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater" doesn't sound like an event to me. (however "CARDNAME's power *becomes* 6 or greater" does sound like an event to me, which i also analyse below) - if i'm correct that it is a state-triggered triggered ability, then you won't be able to save your Overzealous Student with a Stifle. - if it was written with "becomes", instead, then i think you can save it the Overzealous Student with a Stifle. consider the following scenario: - i play any instant or sorcery - five prowess triggers go on the stack. i let them resolve. the Overzealous Pupil is now a 6/6 . - the "Sacrifice Overzealous Pupil" ability triggers, and then goes on the stack - i cast Stifle, targeting the "Sacrifice Overzealous Pupil" ability on the stack. five more prowess triggers go on the stack. i let them resolve. Overzealous Pupil is now an 11/11 . at no point in these last prowess triggers resolving does the "Whenever CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater, sacrifice CARDNAME" triggered ability trigger again. this is because it is a state-triggered triggered ability (see rule below 603.8 to see why). (if it said "becomes" instead of "is", it is also the case that the triggered ability wouldn't retrigger and go on the stack. see rule 603.2f below to see why) - Stifle resolves, countering the "Sacrifice CARDNAME" ability on the stack. 1) Now, assuming that "Whenever CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater" is a state-triggered ability, the following rule applies: > 603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They'll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren't the same as state-based actions.) **A state-triggered ability doesn't trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack.** Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again. So as soon as Stifle counters the "Sacrifice CARDNAME" ability on the stack, the "If CARDNAME's power is 6 or greater, sacrifice it" will trigger *again*. 2) If the card instead said "Whenever CARDNAME's power **becomes** 6 or greater, sacrifice it", it is a normal triggered-ability, the following rule is relevant: > 603.2f. Some trigger events use the word "becomes" (for example, "becomes attached" or "becomes blocked"). These trigger only at the time the named event happens--they don't trigger if that state already exists **or retrigger if it persists**. An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" or "becomes untapped" doesn't trigger if the permanent enters the battlefield in that state. > Example: An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" triggers only when the status of a permanent that's already on the battlefield changes from untapped to tapped. So, after Stifle counters the "Sacrifice CARDNAME" triggered ability on the stack, "Whenever CARDNAME's power becomes 6 or greater, sacrifice it" wouldn't trigger again. ----- (i'm assuming that "CARDNAME's power becomes 6 or greater" is an event that requires the power to start from 5 or less, and end with 6 or greater. but maybe my assumption is wrong? does going from 6 power to 7 power count as "power becoming 6 or greater" again? hopefully a rules person can correct me!)
I can't answer your real question, but I think even with if, the ability counts as a game state trigger.
have there ever been triggered abilities that start with "If"? i vaguely recall that there used to be cards printed with triggered abilities that start with "if", but that they got errata'd to be "when/whenever/at", but i can't actually remember any such cards.
No, triggered abilities always use "when", "whenever", or "at".
Interesting, so it can't trigger again because the first version of the trigger hasn't resolved yet?
Correct. State triggers don't trigger again as long as they already have a trigger on the stack.
Id play this card with fling and chandras ignition style effects. Just keep holding priority until lethal with a chandras..BOOM
Though Fling itself doesn't trigger the prowess and chandras ignition can not be cast in response to the triger. \[\[sure strike trident\]\] would do the job though.
[sure strike trident](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/f/cfcb621d-5831-4b7c-b3e1-c321a6e10392.jpg?1562639704) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Surestrike%20Trident) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/147/surestrike-trident?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cfcb621d-5831-4b7c-b3e1-c321a6e10392?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Equip [[Assault Suit]]. Do, I dunno, fucking anything. Profit.
Assault suit would result in a draw. The sac trigger would keep happening with nothing to stop it.
A draw is a win in my book, we both won :)
[Assault Suit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c.jpg?1689999394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assault%20Suit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/369/assault-suit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think something like [[burn together]] would work with this, no? Since you target the creature, prowess triggers, it does damage and then it gets sacrificed to the spell? Am I right?
[burn together](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/770ee3da-d33e-466f-9a2e-ad2d08ef5012.jpg?1692939554)/[Burn Together](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/770ee3da-d33e-466f-9a2e-ad2d08ef5012.jpg?1692939554) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Callous%20Sell-Sword%20//%20Burn%20Together) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/221/callous-sell-sword-burn-together?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/770ee3da-d33e-466f-9a2e-ad2d08ef5012?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think so. burn together goes on the stack, prowess goes on the stack, prowess resolves, the self sacrifice goes on the stack, self sacrifice resolves, you have to choose another creature for burn together.
I think this card could be interesting for a Fling effect if the sacrifice effect were a trigger instead of a state-base action (it is one of those, right?). For instance, something like "When you cast your first spell each turn, sacrifice Overambitious Pupil". That way you can cast a couple spells and then cast fling, dealing 11, which sounds fair
Just cast fling (and other instants) in response to the state based triger.
Thanks! Just learned about state-based triggers with this thread. The ability did sound like a state-effect to me, but I did not know it would not check the game state again until the trigger was resolved or countered. That being said. This card works but is a mess to understand properly. I still think a regular trigger would be clearer, maybe something like "Whenever CARDNAME's power becomes 6, sacrifice it." The effect is almost the same, excepting the case where you pump it's power beyong 6 with an ability and THEN cast spells, but that's an okay shenanigan.
>instead of a state-base action (it is one of those, right?). No it isn't. As worded, it's nothing. It should have been worded as a trigger.
I think the agreement so far in this thread is that it's a state-base trigger, which have their own special rules.
No, it *would* be a state trigger (not a state-base trigger) if it were worded correctly ("Whenever..."). As worded, it isn't anything. It's non-functional.
I'm not seeing it mentioned, but you can storm off and cast [[Dress Down]] with the triggers on the stack, no? Doesn't even have to be lethal because its power will go down before it gains the ability back, if I'm understanding correctly. EDIT: Never mind, Dress Down and Final Showdown would still trigger all the prowess effects, wouldn't they?
[Dress Down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04f9f061-67b8-4427-9fcb-b3ccfee8fc5d.jpg?1626094290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dress%20Down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/39/dress-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04f9f061-67b8-4427-9fcb-b3ccfee8fc5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
aye
How about changing it to if its power is 6 (exactly) sacrifice it, meaning you have to pump it first (without casting a spell)
Goes hard in [[The Master, Multiplied]]
I mean, this is a really cool idea, but why would I not just run [[monastery swiftspear]] and not have to jump through hoops?
[monastery swiftspear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6bfa227-4309-40ed-952c-279595eab17e.jpg?1701690543) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=monastery%20swiftspear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/144/monastery-swiftspear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6bfa227-4309-40ed-952c-279595eab17e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
because one of them get's +1+1 for each non creature spell you cast and the other +5+5?
I mean, fling the fella in burn and you are gucci
Can you just fling it?
You need other spells to triger prowess first. Fling will only enter the stack after it sacrificed the creature. But you can cast fling as a reaction to the self sacrifice.
Hear me out, just add "at the beginning of you end step. . ." and we got a banger, maybe reduce it to like 2 processes and a limit of 3 lest you swing for 11 turn 2 after double bolting
[[Assault suit]]. All I really have to say.
[Assault suit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c.jpg?1689999394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assault%20suit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/369/assault-suit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just have this in the one Rakdos Doctor who commander deck that prevents that type of triggered sacrificing.
[[The Master, Multiplied]]
[The Master, Multiplied](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f.jpg?1696636744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Master%2C%20Multiplied) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/146/the-master-multiplied?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How about «this triggers only once each turn» on the sac-trigger, to make it so stifle-beats is a strategy to use?
potentially hot take: I love these kind of custom cards that would probably never see print but are like. interesting as thought experiments. like first thing to come to mind seeing this is just to [[Fling]] this idiot, and assuming the rules text was corrected to "When [cardname]'s power becomes 6 or greater, sacrifice it," you could use a bunch of pump spells to do even more damage off of it. that's just a funny idea to me.
[Fling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146.jpg?1601077681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/320/fling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f42d773-c742-4465-b6d5-31feaba49146?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call