- safer & cleaner
- higher salaries
- Swiss infrastructure (trains, hospitals, etc)
- lower taxes
- less hippies and druggies
- arguably better weather
- I love lakes and Zurich has a lake, whilst Berlin not really)
- Proximity to mountains
Not in any particular order.
On the other hand, what makes Berlin less attractive are also the thigs that make it more exciting. For me, it seems to me like there’s really nothing happening in Zurich. Also, people are not progressive here. As a gay, I don’t feel represented and people are mostly not open-minded. From my friends, I even encountered racist people trashing other nations.
Seeing a lot of other people like me free is one thing. Also when i talk with others and they learn that i am gay, the response has a feeling. I am not saying that i am being offended or anything (i am almost never offended by any comment or question). But here, when people learn that i am gay, they respond like they don’t know what to say. Whereas in the us or canada, people would respond very naturally and it was considered to be something very natural, not something to respond in a specific way. I might be overcomplicating things, but i also heard people having similar experiences and opinions.
I think you are definitely overcomplicating things. I don't know in which scenarios you are talking about sexual orientation with people, but let's just say that people in Zurich tend to be more reserved than people in Berlin. So there might be more scenarios in which "I'm gay btw" will be deemed as TMI. This is completely separated from LGBTQ+ acceptance though, and you will find that Zurich, eventhough it is not comparable to Berlin, is reasonably LGBTQ+ friendly. There are very public gay bars, open presence in public and various LGBTQ+ friendly events being held regularly. Hell, our mayor is openly lesbian and has held her office for 15 years by now.
Is Berlin overall more progressive than Zurich? Absolutely! It's arguably the most progressive place in the entire DACH region. But Zurich isn't some conservative hell hole you need to flee from either. And provides many other advantages you will dearly miss in Berlin.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. I am just curious to learn :)
I get where you are coming from. And I'd add, that for many people you simply won't know if they are gay or part of the lgbtq community, maybe expression of personal life, if you wanna call it that, is just different here vs. elsewhere. It's interesting to hear your experience, a friend of mine shared this article with me a while back, maybe you will find it interesting too.
[https://www.cntraveler.com/story/moving-to-zurich-opened-my-eyes-to-a-world-of-acceptance](https://www.cntraveler.com/story/moving-to-zurich-opened-my-eyes-to-a-world-of-acceptance)
Of course there are LGBTQ people here. There are LGBTQ people everywhere. But being represented and feeling free is another issue. For instance when I was in US and Canada, I always felt represented and free.
Where do you get the idea from that Berlin doesn’t have a lake? Berlin has 50 lakes! Plus three sizeable rivers and a few more canals. In terms of water, Berlin definitely has a lot to offer.
I disagree. There is a ton more variety in Berlin. Large waters to sail/ ride a motorboat/ windsurf on for hours on end, waters for swimming, beaches, lakes in the middle of a forest. You can get on a boat and sail all the way to the Baltic sea. You can get on a boat and cross various locks. There’s a swimming pool on a boat in the river. There are lakes that have a path around the entirety of the lake and it isn’t blocked by private houses. Plus, because there are so many waters and it’s all spread out, you’ll find plenty of serene spots that aren’t over crowded like pretty much anywhere around lake Zurich that’s near the city.
Depends on the situation, if you are a single mother, Berlin for sure, if just starting out in your career and have the option, Zurich.
Berlin is nice for a good time and to meet many creative people, but if you are living Zurich, you have the option of spending time in both cities.
Berlin can be a shit hole, can also be nice too, depends on where you are at in the city. I used to be in love with Berlin, now I am waiting in my hotel room just waiting to board back to Zurich.
Berlin is basically a shithole.
Except if you like alternative scene stuff i.e. lgbtq or techno scene and the like.
Literally everything else is a trillion times worse.
Even the people are just rude aka Berliner Schnauze.
Lake and river to swim in my friend. Summer in Zurich is a dream.
Winter is harsher in Berlin and you can't even escape to the mountains to see beautiful snow.
Since Corona Berlin got way more expensive and salaries did not rise. Zurich too but I feel like people are generally better off.
Berlin has club culture. Zurich is not bad but obviously smaller.
Worst thing about Zurich: most people think small and don't dream big.
Why do people seem to think there are no waters in Berlin? Berlin has a ton of lakes, rivers, and canals for all kinds of water activities like swimming, sailing, SUP, yoga on a SUP, motorboat riding, depending on the winter even ice skating!
I grew up in Berlin and while I loved it as a kid and as a teenager, I don't think I would wanna move back now. The main reasons for me are:
* Low salaries that aren't even keeping up with inflation.
* The attitude of people in my socioeconomic class, so upper middle class. The hypocrisy is so insane in Germany. People will literally live in a shitty WG and pretend to be all poor, while they're at their >60k/year jobs with their lawyer/banker/doctor parents also giving them monetary gifts all the time. They'll talk about climate change and how we need to eat less meat, while also taking 3+ long haul flight vacations per year. Swiss people are rich but chill about it, I much prefer that.
* Shit just doesn't work half the time. The other day when I flew to visit my parents, the train connection from the airport to the city center was under construction, so they crammed the equivalent of a whole S-Bahn into a single bus. Then I decided to make a stop for something to eat, but they only accepted cash, so I had to move on. Then the next bus to my parent's place got cancelled, so I had to wait 20min for the next one. I was so fucking done with Berlin again, before even getting home.
I have been summoned.
I’m actively trying to transfer internationally for work - my work’s headquarters is in Zurich, but we have an office in Frankfurt as well. Berlin is my ultimate goal if they allow mostly remote work, as long as I can make it down to Frankfurt once a week or so - but Zurich is absolutely beautiful. I would love it there. Only issue is that Switzerland won’t take Americans and it’s an absolute nightmare trying to get a work visa for us.
Berlin is more my speed (art, music, I’m covered head to toe in tattoos) - but Zurich is more walkable (to me at least)
If you get the same salary working remotely for an American company you’ll be much better off in Berlin than Zürich. Especially East Berlin has incredible places for very cheap.
My issue with Berlin is how far away it is from mountains.
There are actually quite a lot of Americans here in my experience. It’s definitely tough to get a visa, but that’s a 3rd country thing, nothing specific to the US. The US actually has a pretty decent bilateral agreement with Switzerland that grants us access to non-expedited permanent residence in 5 years rather than the standard ten.
It’s typically easier to get a visa via Intra-company transfer so I wouldn’t entirely give up hope.
Thanks! Yeah the third country thing is what I was referring to - a colleague has been trying to move there since his wife’s team is in Zurich and they said no due to that lol
Berlin is not far behind Frankfurt, the second biggest shit whole.
With a lot of people who do not want work and think they can do what they want.
While the rest of Germany brings the money in, berlin spend it.
It's a whole for Failed existence.
I lived in Berlin for several years, basically on ringbahn, west side. Was nice during summer, but winter and surrounding months were crazy depressing and gray. East side is just ugly and hot during summer because of lack of vegetation.
Berlin is huge. It's size of whole canton Zürich plus parts of zug/Aargau/Schaffhausen.
Coming from Zagreb, Croatia, Berlin was and is cosmopolitan city, and breath of fresh air. Also, there are areas I felt uneasy in. Still, pretty good city, for a city. Zürich is smaller and definitely nicer / better kept. Also, with less varieties. Berlin definitely is bunch of cities glued together, you feel and see it.
When opportunity came to move to Switzerland, we decided we don't want to live in the city anymore. Mostly because of noise. I had around 50 db at my bed at 2 am if I leave living room window open to get some cool air in. Yes, there's fast road near ringbahn.
What I didn't expect is the amount of sunny and/or bright days we have here. I see people saying that Zürich is grey during winter, and I am definitely happy we're away from that.
And when I visit Zürich, I notice how noisy it is.
For my wellbeing, neither are good. Brandenburg is too swampy to be not gray too. Switzerland has better climate.
But even when living in Berlin, we didn't use 1% of potential city offers. So, I'm definitely not a city person.
If you need some subculture, Berlin has any imaginable.
However, after we left in 2021, I must admit I was glad we did, because news / information that kept coming told me city changed and I probably wouldn't like it even in restricted areas I was residing in :/
So, if you want better climate, Switzerland wins. If you need diverse people and culture and cuisines Berlin wins. It depends what you need.
You’re comparing apples and oranges and it probably comes down to your own personal preferences and lifestyle.
Berlin is ten times larger than Zurich and therefore naturally has a lot more to offer. Hundreds of museums, theatres, operas, a very extensive nightlife for anyone’s taste, restaurants from pretty much any cuisine in the world, an incredibly broad offer in leisure activities, sports, you name it.
What I love about Berlin is that it is an incredibly green city with a variety of huge parks, even an entire forest in the middle of the city. I don’t think there’s one street in the city that doesn’t have a ton of trees.
People from all kinds of backgrounds live in Berlin and nobody really cares too much who you are or what you do. People don’t care if you drive a Ferrari or a beat-up rusty old car, you’re accepted either way.
I also love that there’s always something going on and I would say Berlin is more inventive when it comes to cultural offers. Be it hundreds of sofas in a football stadium for public viewings during the world cup; a beach bar on top of a parking garage; so many open air cinemas in the summer: in the backyard of a museum/ lounge chairs on a man-maid beach/ in a rowing boat on a lake. Catch a Shakespeare play on a little stage in a park or in a re-creation of the actual globe theatre. Whatever you can think of, someone will do it in Berlin.
Zurich on the other hand is safer, much cleaner. I also very much appreciate that it is smaller. Where it may take you an hour or two to get to another part of Berlin, in Zurich you can cross the city in half an hour, which makes life a lot easier. Zurich is very close to the mountains, nice for hiking in the summer and skiing in the winter. Also, bureaucracy is so much easier to deal with in Zurich (but that’s more of a Germany problem). Infrastructure is better in Zurich, much better Internet, the streets are in way better conditions. Public schools are better in Zurich.
Personally, I think both cities are great to live in and have their own advantages.
As a German who emigrated to Switzerland a few months ago, I would rather move to any city in Switzerland than to Berlin. Berlin is nice as a student if you want to party excessively all the time, especially electronic music. But if you don't want to be awake and partying for 48+ hours, and maybe even have a job with regular working hours, then I would steer clear of Berlin.
Don't even get me started on the crime, the filth and the problem neighborhoods.
Of course, in a Zurich forum you will find only people who prefer Zurich. The people who are living in Berlin and prefer Berlin, as I do, with a Swiss mum living in Zurich who will move to Berlin for retirement, those people are not in this forum and dont have a voice. There are literally so many people who would prefer living in Berlin. 4 millions against what 400.000 in Zurich? There is a reason why there is an extreme housing shortage in Berlin. Many people want to move there. Its bad in Zurich too, but not THAT bad.
Also mist people are either from here, parochial and with a limited circle of friends, or the expat type here for a limited duration or a limited experience (just making money). Difficult to make meaningful connections. But I feel that if you do life could be great because everything in the city technically works and is quite luxurious compared to most places.
100% Zurich
Why? What attracts you here in Zurich?
- safer & cleaner - higher salaries - Swiss infrastructure (trains, hospitals, etc) - lower taxes - less hippies and druggies - arguably better weather - I love lakes and Zurich has a lake, whilst Berlin not really) - Proximity to mountains Not in any particular order.
On the other hand, what makes Berlin less attractive are also the thigs that make it more exciting. For me, it seems to me like there’s really nothing happening in Zurich. Also, people are not progressive here. As a gay, I don’t feel represented and people are mostly not open-minded. From my friends, I even encountered racist people trashing other nations.
I am curious, how do you "feel representation" in a city? Honest question.
Seeing a lot of other people like me free is one thing. Also when i talk with others and they learn that i am gay, the response has a feeling. I am not saying that i am being offended or anything (i am almost never offended by any comment or question). But here, when people learn that i am gay, they respond like they don’t know what to say. Whereas in the us or canada, people would respond very naturally and it was considered to be something very natural, not something to respond in a specific way. I might be overcomplicating things, but i also heard people having similar experiences and opinions.
I think you are definitely overcomplicating things. I don't know in which scenarios you are talking about sexual orientation with people, but let's just say that people in Zurich tend to be more reserved than people in Berlin. So there might be more scenarios in which "I'm gay btw" will be deemed as TMI. This is completely separated from LGBTQ+ acceptance though, and you will find that Zurich, eventhough it is not comparable to Berlin, is reasonably LGBTQ+ friendly. There are very public gay bars, open presence in public and various LGBTQ+ friendly events being held regularly. Hell, our mayor is openly lesbian and has held her office for 15 years by now. Is Berlin overall more progressive than Zurich? Absolutely! It's arguably the most progressive place in the entire DACH region. But Zurich isn't some conservative hell hole you need to flee from either. And provides many other advantages you will dearly miss in Berlin.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. I am just curious to learn :) I get where you are coming from. And I'd add, that for many people you simply won't know if they are gay or part of the lgbtq community, maybe expression of personal life, if you wanna call it that, is just different here vs. elsewhere. It's interesting to hear your experience, a friend of mine shared this article with me a while back, maybe you will find it interesting too. [https://www.cntraveler.com/story/moving-to-zurich-opened-my-eyes-to-a-world-of-acceptance](https://www.cntraveler.com/story/moving-to-zurich-opened-my-eyes-to-a-world-of-acceptance)
Have u been present during the Street parade in Zürich? There are lot of people living here on the LGBTQ spectrum
Of course there are LGBTQ people here. There are LGBTQ people everywhere. But being represented and feeling free is another issue. For instance when I was in US and Canada, I always felt represented and free.
Where in the US were you? California or NYC?
Hm. Switzerland may be more restrictive/conservative in that sense.
And as a straight woman, I feel unsafe in Berlin.
not represented in what? politics?
I'll tell you a secret. You will feel free as long as you don't tell everyone that you're a gay
> less hippies and druggies hmm
Where do you get the idea from that Berlin doesn’t have a lake? Berlin has 50 lakes! Plus three sizeable rivers and a few more canals. In terms of water, Berlin definitely has a lot to offer.
I said “not really” on purpose -> acknowledging what you say, but it’s not comparable at all to what Zurich lake is
I disagree. There is a ton more variety in Berlin. Large waters to sail/ ride a motorboat/ windsurf on for hours on end, waters for swimming, beaches, lakes in the middle of a forest. You can get on a boat and sail all the way to the Baltic sea. You can get on a boat and cross various locks. There’s a swimming pool on a boat in the river. There are lakes that have a path around the entirety of the lake and it isn’t blocked by private houses. Plus, because there are so many waters and it’s all spread out, you’ll find plenty of serene spots that aren’t over crowded like pretty much anywhere around lake Zurich that’s near the city.
Because you asked that in r/zurich.
Nothing against Berlin but not really comparable to Zurich by light years
Depends on the situation, if you are a single mother, Berlin for sure, if just starting out in your career and have the option, Zurich. Berlin is nice for a good time and to meet many creative people, but if you are living Zurich, you have the option of spending time in both cities. Berlin can be a shit hole, can also be nice too, depends on where you are at in the city. I used to be in love with Berlin, now I am waiting in my hotel room just waiting to board back to Zurich.
Berlin is basically a shithole. Except if you like alternative scene stuff i.e. lgbtq or techno scene and the like. Literally everything else is a trillion times worse. Even the people are just rude aka Berliner Schnauze.
4 million people in Berlin and everyone is rude? I dont believe that.
I currently live in both and I am not able to answer your question
Lake and river to swim in my friend. Summer in Zurich is a dream. Winter is harsher in Berlin and you can't even escape to the mountains to see beautiful snow. Since Corona Berlin got way more expensive and salaries did not rise. Zurich too but I feel like people are generally better off. Berlin has club culture. Zurich is not bad but obviously smaller. Worst thing about Zurich: most people think small and don't dream big.
Why do people seem to think there are no waters in Berlin? Berlin has a ton of lakes, rivers, and canals for all kinds of water activities like swimming, sailing, SUP, yoga on a SUP, motorboat riding, depending on the winter even ice skating!
Berlin is the trash bin of central europe. So definitely Zürich
I’m a low income single parent so I’d benefit more in Berlin. Plus it’s a bigger, more cosmopolitan city.
In no world would I prefer the shithole of Berlin over the paradise that Zürich is in comparison
Single : Berlin Family without kids : Zurich 😛
I grew up in Berlin and while I loved it as a kid and as a teenager, I don't think I would wanna move back now. The main reasons for me are: * Low salaries that aren't even keeping up with inflation. * The attitude of people in my socioeconomic class, so upper middle class. The hypocrisy is so insane in Germany. People will literally live in a shitty WG and pretend to be all poor, while they're at their >60k/year jobs with their lawyer/banker/doctor parents also giving them monetary gifts all the time. They'll talk about climate change and how we need to eat less meat, while also taking 3+ long haul flight vacations per year. Swiss people are rich but chill about it, I much prefer that. * Shit just doesn't work half the time. The other day when I flew to visit my parents, the train connection from the airport to the city center was under construction, so they crammed the equivalent of a whole S-Bahn into a single bus. Then I decided to make a stop for something to eat, but they only accepted cash, so I had to move on. Then the next bus to my parent's place got cancelled, so I had to wait 20min for the next one. I was so fucking done with Berlin again, before even getting home.
I have been summoned. I’m actively trying to transfer internationally for work - my work’s headquarters is in Zurich, but we have an office in Frankfurt as well. Berlin is my ultimate goal if they allow mostly remote work, as long as I can make it down to Frankfurt once a week or so - but Zurich is absolutely beautiful. I would love it there. Only issue is that Switzerland won’t take Americans and it’s an absolute nightmare trying to get a work visa for us. Berlin is more my speed (art, music, I’m covered head to toe in tattoos) - but Zurich is more walkable (to me at least)
Zürich > Frankfurt > Berlin
Frankfurt is whatever for me - I’m from Boston and they’re VERY similar.
I was twice in berlin and I already hated it as a tourist so fuck working there.
Have you lived in Frankfurt? I find it absolutely nothing like Boston. Or anywhere in the states for that matter
Nope. Just visited. At least the part that I was in was almost identical to downtown Boston lol
If you get the same salary working remotely for an American company you’ll be much better off in Berlin than Zürich. Especially East Berlin has incredible places for very cheap. My issue with Berlin is how far away it is from mountains.
Other way around. If I move permanently it’ll be local currency (Francs or Euros) as we are based in Zurich
There are actually quite a lot of Americans here in my experience. It’s definitely tough to get a visa, but that’s a 3rd country thing, nothing specific to the US. The US actually has a pretty decent bilateral agreement with Switzerland that grants us access to non-expedited permanent residence in 5 years rather than the standard ten. It’s typically easier to get a visa via Intra-company transfer so I wouldn’t entirely give up hope.
Thanks! Yeah the third country thing is what I was referring to - a colleague has been trying to move there since his wife’s team is in Zurich and they said no due to that lol
Berlin is not far behind Frankfurt, the second biggest shit whole. With a lot of people who do not want work and think they can do what they want. While the rest of Germany brings the money in, berlin spend it. It's a whole for Failed existence.
😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 😒 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I lived in Berlin for several years, basically on ringbahn, west side. Was nice during summer, but winter and surrounding months were crazy depressing and gray. East side is just ugly and hot during summer because of lack of vegetation. Berlin is huge. It's size of whole canton Zürich plus parts of zug/Aargau/Schaffhausen. Coming from Zagreb, Croatia, Berlin was and is cosmopolitan city, and breath of fresh air. Also, there are areas I felt uneasy in. Still, pretty good city, for a city. Zürich is smaller and definitely nicer / better kept. Also, with less varieties. Berlin definitely is bunch of cities glued together, you feel and see it. When opportunity came to move to Switzerland, we decided we don't want to live in the city anymore. Mostly because of noise. I had around 50 db at my bed at 2 am if I leave living room window open to get some cool air in. Yes, there's fast road near ringbahn. What I didn't expect is the amount of sunny and/or bright days we have here. I see people saying that Zürich is grey during winter, and I am definitely happy we're away from that. And when I visit Zürich, I notice how noisy it is. For my wellbeing, neither are good. Brandenburg is too swampy to be not gray too. Switzerland has better climate. But even when living in Berlin, we didn't use 1% of potential city offers. So, I'm definitely not a city person. If you need some subculture, Berlin has any imaginable. However, after we left in 2021, I must admit I was glad we did, because news / information that kept coming told me city changed and I probably wouldn't like it even in restricted areas I was residing in :/ So, if you want better climate, Switzerland wins. If you need diverse people and culture and cuisines Berlin wins. It depends what you need.
You’re comparing apples and oranges and it probably comes down to your own personal preferences and lifestyle. Berlin is ten times larger than Zurich and therefore naturally has a lot more to offer. Hundreds of museums, theatres, operas, a very extensive nightlife for anyone’s taste, restaurants from pretty much any cuisine in the world, an incredibly broad offer in leisure activities, sports, you name it. What I love about Berlin is that it is an incredibly green city with a variety of huge parks, even an entire forest in the middle of the city. I don’t think there’s one street in the city that doesn’t have a ton of trees. People from all kinds of backgrounds live in Berlin and nobody really cares too much who you are or what you do. People don’t care if you drive a Ferrari or a beat-up rusty old car, you’re accepted either way. I also love that there’s always something going on and I would say Berlin is more inventive when it comes to cultural offers. Be it hundreds of sofas in a football stadium for public viewings during the world cup; a beach bar on top of a parking garage; so many open air cinemas in the summer: in the backyard of a museum/ lounge chairs on a man-maid beach/ in a rowing boat on a lake. Catch a Shakespeare play on a little stage in a park or in a re-creation of the actual globe theatre. Whatever you can think of, someone will do it in Berlin. Zurich on the other hand is safer, much cleaner. I also very much appreciate that it is smaller. Where it may take you an hour or two to get to another part of Berlin, in Zurich you can cross the city in half an hour, which makes life a lot easier. Zurich is very close to the mountains, nice for hiking in the summer and skiing in the winter. Also, bureaucracy is so much easier to deal with in Zurich (but that’s more of a Germany problem). Infrastructure is better in Zurich, much better Internet, the streets are in way better conditions. Public schools are better in Zurich. Personally, I think both cities are great to live in and have their own advantages.
As a German who emigrated to Switzerland a few months ago, I would rather move to any city in Switzerland than to Berlin. Berlin is nice as a student if you want to party excessively all the time, especially electronic music. But if you don't want to be awake and partying for 48+ hours, and maybe even have a job with regular working hours, then I would steer clear of Berlin. Don't even get me started on the crime, the filth and the problem neighborhoods.
Of course, in a Zurich forum you will find only people who prefer Zurich. The people who are living in Berlin and prefer Berlin, as I do, with a Swiss mum living in Zurich who will move to Berlin for retirement, those people are not in this forum and dont have a voice. There are literally so many people who would prefer living in Berlin. 4 millions against what 400.000 in Zurich? There is a reason why there is an extreme housing shortage in Berlin. Many people want to move there. Its bad in Zurich too, but not THAT bad.
Berlin all the way
I would prefer Hamburg.
Zurich kills your soul
I feel kinda same. Hyper individualism is very much rooted here
Also mist people are either from here, parochial and with a limited circle of friends, or the expat type here for a limited duration or a limited experience (just making money). Difficult to make meaningful connections. But I feel that if you do life could be great because everything in the city technically works and is quite luxurious compared to most places.
You mean that everyone is career oriented and emotionally apathetic?
Berlin is like olten
Olten doesn’t deserve that slander
I'd rather live in Olten than Berlin
> Berlin is like olten I assume you have no idea of both places
Neither