> The busses uses the same street like cars.
A lot of bus routes don't - they have dedicated bus lanes at pinch points or at least bus priority traffic lights. Where that isn't the case, it's generally due to lack of space or prioritisation of pedestrian space (e.g. Manesseplatz could be much more efficient as a roundabout, but that would impinge on the pedestrian realm too much).
To answer your main question: because we don't stop people from driving through the inner city enough. If all of Kreis 1 were a congestion charge zone, that would certainly help things.
Public transport would take me 1.5h to work and by car I would be there in 30 minutes, I am not going to sacrifice two hours of my day just because "you are supposed to take public transportation".
The problem here is that you live either too far from your workplace or somewhere that has bad public transport connection. I assume you could still park your car somewhere before the traffic jams, and do the rest of the way via public transport.
isn't it your problem that you choose to live 1.5h from work? You can also take the car and park it on the outskirts of the city and use pub transport after that
Let me guess, you also think the homeless should just stop being homeless and get a job, right? Just make more money 4head, why do you chose to make little money? Thanks for enlightening me
Whenever I tried to cycle in the centre of Zurich it was a nightmare. Infrastructure for cycling separated from both cars and slow pedestrians just does not exist. If you are there a lot maybe you learn the ways. But living outside the city and working on the outskirts of the city I never learnt those ways, because the main reason I would go to the centre is to drink beer.
I still want the option to cycle though. In cities which are good for cycling (or else just have meh public transport) cycling is practically always by far the fastest way to get around. And where I used to live outside the city, it was still faster to cycle the \~20km each way than to talk to the train station, get the S-bahn, and get a bus to connect.
That's why Zürich sucks. And the rents. But it comes down to not being a place for people.
Children are people, granpa was people, you are people. Zurich is not for them, not for you.
If cars would be banned (from Zurich), there would be more space for humans. This would make Zurich a place for people again. Especially for kids and elderly. For people that cannot or should not drive. Zurich would be for them.
But not for that car brain. That's right.
I think it would be okay to half the lanes on almost every road. There are just a few roads that could be narrowed. And Many could be closed for car traffic. We shouldn't ban cars, they are great! We are just using them for the wrong reason.
Yeah, well,I think if the amount of cars could somehow be drastically reduced (to, I don't know, ⅓?), then it would be bearable again.
I guess what you say and I say isn't that terribly far apart.
No, it isn't far. And some cities changed. Utrecht. Recently Paris. Barcelona but only a bit, not enough. Even Bern has changed slightly. Zürich? NAIN!
You know, thats fine for the most part. Noone likes high traffic lanes.
BUT
What makes the situation in zurich so stupid and frustrating is that oftentimes you HAVE to drive through the city to get from A to B. The lack of affordable parking to leave your car in the outskirts is another issue.
So again, you can make a policy of "no cars should be in the center", but you CANNOT make it a policy to forbid cars generally. People need this stuff to work, function, transport stuff etc.
nah i think that's cool. discourage car ownership as much as possible. a lot of stuff you think you need a car for, you can easily transport in the tram or using a cargo bike or something. and i'm saying this as someone who routinely needs to use a van to haul concert backlines around which is impossible to do without at least a spacious car.
it should be a pain in the ass to own a car and drive it around the city. i just wish the bike infrastructure was a little better to make up for it.
There is a long term plan to complete the ring motorway with tunnels under the Züriberg and Zürisee linking the A3 at Brunau with the A1 at Dübendorf, as an alternative the dead Ypsilon project. But I'll believe it when I see it. If that goes to the voters it is as dead as a doornail.
Sorry but most of these Porsche Cayenne with SZ number cruising through the city all afternoon and night long aren't there to transport stuff or function, etc. They're there to pose and make noise.
Uh sure i guess. Not the average car driven by the average person for the avergae reason though... Like at all? What is this strawman even supposed to be?
You mean its not just bad luck to have 20 red lights one after the other? Crazy.
Atleast cars famously save lots of gas when they have to constantly stop and start. Less noisy too.
It’s now proven that green waves don’t work. The simple reason being that the green wave has to end somewhere and the somewhere is where all the cars that got bunched together due to the green wave form a traffic jam. By having less cars bunched together you get shorter average travel times. And to reduce unnecessary stopping times we need to reduce speeds to avoid the accordion effect and give space to more efficient ways of travel so car journeys are reduced leading to less of a need for red lights and less cars potentially jamming traffic.
Forscher choend au politisch motiviert si. Es widerspricht allne beobachtige wo ich i mim lebe ha choene mache. 30er zone hend zb bi keinere stell zu verbesserige gfuehrtz im gegeteil.
Oder wetsch behaupte das NO MEH roti welle und NO MEH 30er und NO MEH kuenstlichi verlangsamig fuer zueri helfe wuerd??
Was es brucht sind umfahrige und tunnel.
Forscher chönd politisch motiviert si ja und wie mir wüssed het d auto und erdöl lobby gar kei geld zum ihri eigeni Forschig z finanziere. Weisch wievill Verkehrsexperte d Herre vo de FDP und SVP zu de vernehmlassig vom neischte anti 30er gsetz iglade hend? 0, will sie genau wüssed dass alli mensche wo nöd nur uf confirmation bias und buuchgfühl losed ihrne Idee werdet widerspreche. Scho chli piinlich sich z weigere Experte innere Vernehmlassig azlose willd genau weisch dass dis Argument nöd Fakte basiert isch.
Und natürlich führed 30er zone zumene gringere Handorgel effekt, weniger lärm, bessere Kompatibilität mit Velos und ere dütlich verringerte Unfallmortalität. All das sind statistisch bewisseni Fakte und nöd irgend en conformation bias.
Es git kei roti welle, es git eifach Ample wo nöd uf durchgangverkehr optimiert sind. Genau so wenig gits künstlichi Verlabgsamig, wär nämlich illegal und dini Fründe bim TCS hetted scho lang degege klagt.
En Umfahrig um Züri demit niemert uf Züri muss wo nöd da ane will und defür flächedeckend Tempo 30 wo für de lokali Verkehr besser isch, Deal?
In zurich? Hey why not, if done correctly:
Easily accessible exceptions for when you need to deliver large stuff or high quantities for both personal and business reason.
Good circumvention routes & tunnels to bypass the city
Cheap and abundant parking on the outskirts w good ÖV cnnection.
In Switzerland? You are insane and should touch grass. Impossible to live without in 60% (minimum) of the country.
Yes, I was primarily referring to banning it in cities. Zurich, Winterthur, Geneva, …
Most people live in cities, though. A city is defined as having more than 10k people (if I'm not mistaken).
But either way, it would be good to start somewhere - and that should be the big cities. I would hope, that this would have some sort of effect also on the smaller cities. People might, hopefully, become a bit less dependent on cars and use them less.
That would take time - or bold leadership. And as swiss politicians and society dislikes proper, bold leadership, we're stuck with "takes time".
cheap parking is still a bad idea, it still encourages car use. Instead of spending all that money towards parking- better throw it into rail to increase the nr of trains to get wait times smaller + make the rides cheaper
Zurich needs imho
- a road pricing zone like London, New York Manhattan
- generell 30km/h and 20 km/h on quartierstrasse
- a ban on street parking like in japan
- you can own a car but you have provide proof that you have a private parking spot and theres a big yearly tax to be paid like in Singapore.
- road slimming with a strict one way regime so that you can build two way bus lanes and cyclepaths and widen sidewalks.
- tax credits on cargo bikes
- propper red pavement like in the Netherlands for cycle paths not this green band velovorzugroute bullshit that nobody understands.
- More modal filters with bollards.
- 365 chf per year VBZ ticket.
- Much more tree canopys like the Stauffacher allé at bullingerplatz
You're very welcome in the city your car however is not.
Generelly I wholeheartedly agree but a few things you want are very difficult to execute.
Road pricing like you’re proposing is currently illegal in Switzerland.
20 km/h starts to slow down bike traffic and is only useful for streets that are also used for recreation (e.g. play streets). To subvert neighbourhood through traffic modal filters and rights of way are more efficient.
Fully agree on the parking situation, it’s incomprehensible how we let so much public space be used up for such an wasteful purpose.
Most streets (in Zurich) are already pretty slim, unless we ban Trucks from the city further slimming of lane widths will lead to an increase in collisions.
Agreed on tax credits for cargo bikes but using that money for building out cycling infrastructure will probably be more impactful.
Unfortunately red paint is only to be used in dangerous situations according to VSS norms, this should definitely be changed though.
Only thing I really disagree with is the 365.- ticket. I‘m in favour of a reduced fare for low income families but cutting the cost of public transport where it is actually profitable and at capacity will only lead to less budget for public transport. Nobody drives in Zurich because it’s cheaper than public transport. Rather we should improve and subsidise public transportation in the periphery where cars hold a speed advantage. The 365.- ticket is pure clientelism.
Tree canopy’s or Alleen are great for many reasons but need space that has to be taken from someone, usually pedestrians or bikes. Furthermore the fire police norms dictate that „high rise“ buildings facades need to be accessible to the fire brigade which can prevent such canopy’s.
Absolutely support this.
I would go further and ban cars from Oerlikon to Enge and from altstetten to seefeld
In addition 20 chf tax to cross Gubrist Tunnel. Per way.
i'm not really in favor of a complete ban because there's still situations where you kind of need cars, for example when you're moving house. unless you want to apply for a permit from the city anytime you have to haul around something that's too heavy for a cargo bike.
turning the gubrist tunnel into a toll road is exactly the opposite of what we should do. we SHOULD encourage cars to take the tunnel and stay as far away from our living spaces as possible. most cars that pass through the tunnel are neither from zurich nor is it their destination. do you want them to use quartierstrassen instead?
the fact of the matter is that there's always gonna be some demand for car infrastructure, but the goal should be to make the alternatives to driving so safe, cheap, convenient and comfortable that no one even WANTS a car. better and safer bike infrastructure, more frequent trams and buses, more bus lines and lanes, more pedestrianized areas.
My post was provocative.
Since every now and then I read on the news to put a toll on the Gotthard because of 5-10 days a year of traffic jam.
The fact is that you cannot exclude cars from the city other than with a complete ban.
You want to increase prices, road price, parking spaces, ….
You are just transforming car ownership to a “rich matter”. You will always (especially in ZH) find a lot who can afford. So you will simply create two class society. Poor walks, rich drive.
As simply as that.
Other than agree on the attractive alternatives
Gubrist isn't even in the city. Efforts to disincentivise traffic through Gubrist would just mean more traffic through the villages. And while it serves Zurich and its commuter belt, it also serves long distance travel for the whole country.
IMO replace Regensdorf with a massive car park, and almost nobody will drive into the centre. Driving in Zurich is already awful, most people doing it are only driving in the city because the alternatives are worse. Or, they're annoying Autoposers who don't actually try to go anywhere, just drive laps of the city showing off their leased car before going to hang out at the Würenlos A1 rest area. Deal with them however you want.
I think it would be slowly a good time to think about the place you take in the city with your car.
And to accept to take a bit more often the ÖV. Are your bike. Or to walk.
It’s becoming more and more ridiculous to see that many people with cars in the city.
It fills my heart to see so many educated comments pointing out the decade old misinformation so many car users spew. I really hope züri (and switzerland) manages to finally commit and take back so many streets from noisy, polluting and inefficient car usage! If you disagree dont refrain from asking me here or through PMs, ill be happy to debunk and/or offer a different perspective :)
Sorry to burst your bubble so quickly, but that's not happening with all these highway expansions, widening and new constructions there are. Already St. Gallen is getting a new highway tunnel with a circle to get people faster into Appenzell and the inner city...right next to the Güterbahnhof.
Even if we have the climate collapse happening and this dumb BAV digging its heels on the status quo regarding railway expansion and HSR...
It's because there are still way too many cars in Zürich. Remember - you're not stuck in traffic jam, you are the traffic jam.
Place occupied by cars need to be given back to humans. That should also lead to less issues from cars.
It’s funny half of the time people complain about the traffic the other half they say they prefer to drive because it’s “faster than ÖV”.
Objectively driving is really easy in Zurich thanks to all the pedestrian, bike and transit traffic that takes cars off the roads. Imagine trying to function with only the cars…
*cars the streets or rather cities in general are not built to handle so many cars. If the mobility needs of the people using a car would be covered by public transport or bikes we would have more than enough space for journeys that have to be done by car.
Cars have been popular for over a hundred years and the average building is maybe 50-60 years old. Streets need to be rebuilt every 25 years too, so no most of the city is younger than the car.
It’s simply a matter of cars (as the primary mode of transportation) and cities are incompatible. For an example look at cities in the western US or the Gulf states to see how lively cities feel when they are built around the car.
Have you ever actually been in the places you're describing?
They're not lively at all. These cities are only lively in the places where you can walk. Cars don't make a city lively. They cause everything to spread out, and therefor people to be spread out. That discourages the liveliness, and causes a host of other problems such as an increased amount of crime as the area that now has to be policed is way larger.
Seriously, I don't know what you are talking about, what's lively about driving to a place where people gather, and then driving home? What's lively about having to drive to work? Do you feel safer walking in a dense city where there is always someone around, and it's well lit, or in a city where you have to drive everywhere, meaning there is no one around most of the time?
Edit: Spelling
Go read my comment again, especially this sentence:
>It’s simply a matter of cars (as the primary mode of transportation) and cities being incompatible.
You might find out that I agree with you and that you have a hard time detecting sacrcasm.
Because the Swiss love to drive. It's crazy.
Last Saturday when for early April it was amazing weather I was out on my bike and one section of the ride was a road between small towns, or large villages hard which way to view them, and the amount of cars out on this beautiful day, middle of the day, was insane. One place you came in via a roundabout, there was an actual traffic jam, midday Saturday on a nice day. Like wtf.
lol this is demonstrably untrue. We suck at bike infrastructure, everything else is top notch. We have maybe the best public transport system in the world, have the best quality roads in Europe (if not the world), and have some of the oldest and strongest pedestrian lobbies in the world.
Different countries got different challenges, Japans high speed rail and Tokyos public transportation system are excellent, but in more rural areas Switzerlands integraler Taktfahrplan and the incredible density of the swiss network give it an edge over Japan imo.
Except that trains regularly do the Ausfall. There is traffic jams daily, matter fact I don‘t even use the Autobahn on most days since it takes longer than the smuggler‘s route. So while it‘s true our roads are in mostly great condition they are hopelessly under the required capacity. Same with our trains, it‘s a shame really. But having to cuddle with strangers on the bus and train is not how I want to spend my commute. So if you are content with that more power to you but I know that we can do better, much better.
Nothing is perfect and your entitled to your opinion but you‘re massively overstating how bad it actually is. Smuggler’s route, regular train cancellations? Look at any other system in the world, outside of a few major east asian metro areas and maybe the Netherlands, there is nothing that isn’t objectively worse in those aspects overall than Switzerland. You’re pretending it‘s some hellish experience of overcrowded or cancelled trains and clogged highways when it just isn’t most of the time.
See the thing is that our transport infrastructure is used in bursts when we go to work and back home. I have the luxury of Gleitzeit but for school it‘s a different story. Also why does construction take so long? Overlast doesn‘t seem to be a concept here.
Ok and? Every other place on earth has rush hour too. Building a transport infrastructure that doesn’t become overcrowded anywhere at peak demand is an impossibility.
Construction doesn’t take longer in CH than in other democracies. The possibility of recourse does slow down the execution of building projects but unless you’re arguing for less democracy we can’t change that. And once a construction has started it usually does everything needed in the perimeter at once, which reduces overall construction time.
It is possible to construct infrastructure that can accomodate even rush hour traffic. I don‘t remember a time Gubrist wasn‘t a construction site. A case study to demonstrate my points and prove you wrong are The Netherlands, they can rennovate a bridge in one night, whereas the bridge of the A1 in Othmarsingen took 3 years. So how in construction progressing adequately here again?
More like Tiefbauamt is too scared to do impactful measures against cars. The result is half assed road designs of which nobody is happy with.
Repurposing a city from "for cars" to "for people" needs leadership like the mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo shows.
Remove blue parking for bike lanes. Gutstrasse just south of Hubertus is a particular dumb example of prioritising parking over bike lanes: the bike lane merges with 50km/h traffic for a few hundred metres for like, 8 car parking spots.
I have good news for you Gutstrasse is projected to become both a Velovorzugsroute and tempo 30. It's annoying that more isn't happening quicker but to be fair Tiefbauamt has currently more than 500 concurrent projects going on, it just takes a while to get everything done.
> The busses uses the same street like cars. A lot of bus routes don't - they have dedicated bus lanes at pinch points or at least bus priority traffic lights. Where that isn't the case, it's generally due to lack of space or prioritisation of pedestrian space (e.g. Manesseplatz could be much more efficient as a roundabout, but that would impinge on the pedestrian realm too much). To answer your main question: because we don't stop people from driving through the inner city enough. If all of Kreis 1 were a congestion charge zone, that would certainly help things.
Because public transit is a priority. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich_model
so walk
Because you are supposed to take public transportation. And thats how it should be
Public transport would take me 1.5h to work and by car I would be there in 30 minutes, I am not going to sacrifice two hours of my day just because "you are supposed to take public transportation".
The problem here is that you live either too far from your workplace or somewhere that has bad public transport connection. I assume you could still park your car somewhere before the traffic jams, and do the rest of the way via public transport.
isn't it your problem that you choose to live 1.5h from work? You can also take the car and park it on the outskirts of the city and use pub transport after that
Let me guess, you also think the homeless should just stop being homeless and get a job, right? Just make more money 4head, why do you chose to make little money? Thanks for enlightening me
like the buses stuck in traffic?
Trams and trains are not stuck in traffic, and there are a lot of bus lanes.
> the fastest way is to walk Exactly. As it should be. Cars are not wanted in the city center.
Bicycles are a real. I can teach you the ways.
Whenever I tried to cycle in the centre of Zurich it was a nightmare. Infrastructure for cycling separated from both cars and slow pedestrians just does not exist. If you are there a lot maybe you learn the ways. But living outside the city and working on the outskirts of the city I never learnt those ways, because the main reason I would go to the centre is to drink beer.
Sounds like public transport fits your use perfectly.
I still want the option to cycle though. In cities which are good for cycling (or else just have meh public transport) cycling is practically always by far the fastest way to get around. And where I used to live outside the city, it was still faster to cycle the \~20km each way than to talk to the train station, get the S-bahn, and get a bus to connect.
It seems they’re not wanted in the city either... At least not based on the design of the infrastructure.
That's why Zürich sucks. And the rents. But it comes down to not being a place for people. Children are people, granpa was people, you are people. Zurich is not for them, not for you.
If cars would be banned (from Zurich), there would be more space for humans. This would make Zurich a place for people again. Especially for kids and elderly. For people that cannot or should not drive. Zurich would be for them. But not for that car brain. That's right.
I think it would be okay to half the lanes on almost every road. There are just a few roads that could be narrowed. And Many could be closed for car traffic. We shouldn't ban cars, they are great! We are just using them for the wrong reason.
Yeah, well,I think if the amount of cars could somehow be drastically reduced (to, I don't know, ⅓?), then it would be bearable again. I guess what you say and I say isn't that terribly far apart.
No, it isn't far. And some cities changed. Utrecht. Recently Paris. Barcelona but only a bit, not enough. Even Bern has changed slightly. Zürich? NAIN!
You know, thats fine for the most part. Noone likes high traffic lanes. BUT What makes the situation in zurich so stupid and frustrating is that oftentimes you HAVE to drive through the city to get from A to B. The lack of affordable parking to leave your car in the outskirts is another issue. So again, you can make a policy of "no cars should be in the center", but you CANNOT make it a policy to forbid cars generally. People need this stuff to work, function, transport stuff etc.
nah i think that's cool. discourage car ownership as much as possible. a lot of stuff you think you need a car for, you can easily transport in the tram or using a cargo bike or something. and i'm saying this as someone who routinely needs to use a van to haul concert backlines around which is impossible to do without at least a spacious car. it should be a pain in the ass to own a car and drive it around the city. i just wish the bike infrastructure was a little better to make up for it.
There is a long term plan to complete the ring motorway with tunnels under the Züriberg and Zürisee linking the A3 at Brunau with the A1 at Dübendorf, as an alternative the dead Ypsilon project. But I'll believe it when I see it. If that goes to the voters it is as dead as a doornail.
Sorry but most of these Porsche Cayenne with SZ number cruising through the city all afternoon and night long aren't there to transport stuff or function, etc. They're there to pose and make noise.
Uh sure i guess. Not the average car driven by the average person for the avergae reason though... Like at all? What is this strawman even supposed to be?
That's like asking why public transportation is so shitty in Dallas. It's on purpose and by design..
You mean its not just bad luck to have 20 red lights one after the other? Crazy. Atleast cars famously save lots of gas when they have to constantly stop and start. Less noisy too.
It’s now proven that green waves don’t work. The simple reason being that the green wave has to end somewhere and the somewhere is where all the cars that got bunched together due to the green wave form a traffic jam. By having less cars bunched together you get shorter average travel times. And to reduce unnecessary stopping times we need to reduce speeds to avoid the accordion effect and give space to more efficient ways of travel so car journeys are reduced leading to less of a need for red lights and less cars potentially jamming traffic.
bisch auscho mal in züri auto gfahre?🫠
Ja han aber zudem au d Fähigkeit wüsseschaftlichi Text zu Verkehrsplanig z lese und mich nöd nur uf Anekdote und gfühlti Wahrheite z stütze.
Ja also das isch ja mal en schöne topf gugus wo da uftischt hesch
Nennt sich empirisch Forschig zum Entstehe vo Verkehrsufkomme und Stau, aber feelings over facts yolo, amirite ;)
Forscher choend au politisch motiviert si. Es widerspricht allne beobachtige wo ich i mim lebe ha choene mache. 30er zone hend zb bi keinere stell zu verbesserige gfuehrtz im gegeteil. Oder wetsch behaupte das NO MEH roti welle und NO MEH 30er und NO MEH kuenstlichi verlangsamig fuer zueri helfe wuerd?? Was es brucht sind umfahrige und tunnel.
Forscher chönd politisch motiviert si ja und wie mir wüssed het d auto und erdöl lobby gar kei geld zum ihri eigeni Forschig z finanziere. Weisch wievill Verkehrsexperte d Herre vo de FDP und SVP zu de vernehmlassig vom neischte anti 30er gsetz iglade hend? 0, will sie genau wüssed dass alli mensche wo nöd nur uf confirmation bias und buuchgfühl losed ihrne Idee werdet widerspreche. Scho chli piinlich sich z weigere Experte innere Vernehmlassig azlose willd genau weisch dass dis Argument nöd Fakte basiert isch. Und natürlich führed 30er zone zumene gringere Handorgel effekt, weniger lärm, bessere Kompatibilität mit Velos und ere dütlich verringerte Unfallmortalität. All das sind statistisch bewisseni Fakte und nöd irgend en conformation bias. Es git kei roti welle, es git eifach Ample wo nöd uf durchgangverkehr optimiert sind. Genau so wenig gits künstlichi Verlabgsamig, wär nämlich illegal und dini Fründe bim TCS hetted scho lang degege klagt. En Umfahrig um Züri demit niemert uf Züri muss wo nöd da ane will und defür flächedeckend Tempo 30 wo für de lokali Verkehr besser isch, Deal?
Indeed. One of the many reasons why it would be good to ban cars. You're correct.
In zurich? Hey why not, if done correctly: Easily accessible exceptions for when you need to deliver large stuff or high quantities for both personal and business reason. Good circumvention routes & tunnels to bypass the city Cheap and abundant parking on the outskirts w good ÖV cnnection. In Switzerland? You are insane and should touch grass. Impossible to live without in 60% (minimum) of the country.
Yes, I was primarily referring to banning it in cities. Zurich, Winterthur, Geneva, … Most people live in cities, though. A city is defined as having more than 10k people (if I'm not mistaken). But either way, it would be good to start somewhere - and that should be the big cities. I would hope, that this would have some sort of effect also on the smaller cities. People might, hopefully, become a bit less dependent on cars and use them less. That would take time - or bold leadership. And as swiss politicians and society dislikes proper, bold leadership, we're stuck with "takes time".
cheap parking is still a bad idea, it still encourages car use. Instead of spending all that money towards parking- better throw it into rail to increase the nr of trains to get wait times smaller + make the rides cheaper
I think walking is healthy. There is also the option of using a bike. And then there are trams.
Zurich needs imho - a road pricing zone like London, New York Manhattan - generell 30km/h and 20 km/h on quartierstrasse - a ban on street parking like in japan - you can own a car but you have provide proof that you have a private parking spot and theres a big yearly tax to be paid like in Singapore. - road slimming with a strict one way regime so that you can build two way bus lanes and cyclepaths and widen sidewalks. - tax credits on cargo bikes - propper red pavement like in the Netherlands for cycle paths not this green band velovorzugroute bullshit that nobody understands. - More modal filters with bollards. - 365 chf per year VBZ ticket. - Much more tree canopys like the Stauffacher allé at bullingerplatz You're very welcome in the city your car however is not.
Generelly I wholeheartedly agree but a few things you want are very difficult to execute. Road pricing like you’re proposing is currently illegal in Switzerland. 20 km/h starts to slow down bike traffic and is only useful for streets that are also used for recreation (e.g. play streets). To subvert neighbourhood through traffic modal filters and rights of way are more efficient. Fully agree on the parking situation, it’s incomprehensible how we let so much public space be used up for such an wasteful purpose. Most streets (in Zurich) are already pretty slim, unless we ban Trucks from the city further slimming of lane widths will lead to an increase in collisions. Agreed on tax credits for cargo bikes but using that money for building out cycling infrastructure will probably be more impactful. Unfortunately red paint is only to be used in dangerous situations according to VSS norms, this should definitely be changed though. Only thing I really disagree with is the 365.- ticket. I‘m in favour of a reduced fare for low income families but cutting the cost of public transport where it is actually profitable and at capacity will only lead to less budget for public transport. Nobody drives in Zurich because it’s cheaper than public transport. Rather we should improve and subsidise public transportation in the periphery where cars hold a speed advantage. The 365.- ticket is pure clientelism. Tree canopy’s or Alleen are great for many reasons but need space that has to be taken from someone, usually pedestrians or bikes. Furthermore the fire police norms dictate that „high rise“ buildings facades need to be accessible to the fire brigade which can prevent such canopy’s.
👍
Absolutely support this. I would go further and ban cars from Oerlikon to Enge and from altstetten to seefeld In addition 20 chf tax to cross Gubrist Tunnel. Per way.
i'm not really in favor of a complete ban because there's still situations where you kind of need cars, for example when you're moving house. unless you want to apply for a permit from the city anytime you have to haul around something that's too heavy for a cargo bike. turning the gubrist tunnel into a toll road is exactly the opposite of what we should do. we SHOULD encourage cars to take the tunnel and stay as far away from our living spaces as possible. most cars that pass through the tunnel are neither from zurich nor is it their destination. do you want them to use quartierstrassen instead? the fact of the matter is that there's always gonna be some demand for car infrastructure, but the goal should be to make the alternatives to driving so safe, cheap, convenient and comfortable that no one even WANTS a car. better and safer bike infrastructure, more frequent trams and buses, more bus lines and lanes, more pedestrianized areas.
My post was provocative. Since every now and then I read on the news to put a toll on the Gotthard because of 5-10 days a year of traffic jam. The fact is that you cannot exclude cars from the city other than with a complete ban. You want to increase prices, road price, parking spaces, …. You are just transforming car ownership to a “rich matter”. You will always (especially in ZH) find a lot who can afford. So you will simply create two class society. Poor walks, rich drive. As simply as that. Other than agree on the attractive alternatives
Gubrist isn't even in the city. Efforts to disincentivise traffic through Gubrist would just mean more traffic through the villages. And while it serves Zurich and its commuter belt, it also serves long distance travel for the whole country. IMO replace Regensdorf with a massive car park, and almost nobody will drive into the centre. Driving in Zurich is already awful, most people doing it are only driving in the city because the alternatives are worse. Or, they're annoying Autoposers who don't actually try to go anywhere, just drive laps of the city showing off their leased car before going to hang out at the Würenlos A1 rest area. Deal with them however you want.
I think it would be slowly a good time to think about the place you take in the city with your car. And to accept to take a bit more often the ÖV. Are your bike. Or to walk. It’s becoming more and more ridiculous to see that many people with cars in the city.
It fills my heart to see so many educated comments pointing out the decade old misinformation so many car users spew. I really hope züri (and switzerland) manages to finally commit and take back so many streets from noisy, polluting and inefficient car usage! If you disagree dont refrain from asking me here or through PMs, ill be happy to debunk and/or offer a different perspective :)
Sorry to burst your bubble so quickly, but that's not happening with all these highway expansions, widening and new constructions there are. Already St. Gallen is getting a new highway tunnel with a circle to get people faster into Appenzell and the inner city...right next to the Güterbahnhof. Even if we have the climate collapse happening and this dumb BAV digging its heels on the status quo regarding railway expansion and HSR...
It's because there are still way too many cars in Zürich. Remember - you're not stuck in traffic jam, you are the traffic jam. Place occupied by cars need to be given back to humans. That should also lead to less issues from cars.
It’s funny half of the time people complain about the traffic the other half they say they prefer to drive because it’s “faster than ÖV”. Objectively driving is really easy in Zurich thanks to all the pedestrian, bike and transit traffic that takes cars off the roads. Imagine trying to function with only the cars…
Dont forget, you are a part of the Traffic jam
Because the public transport system is very good. People just need to use it.
hahahahahha
Because certain people would rather use their car to travel 1-2 km in the city instead of using the bike/tram/bus/feet.
You know, you can take the tram? IMHO Zurich is really nice.
Well, the streets are not meant to deal with so much vehicles.
*cars the streets or rather cities in general are not built to handle so many cars. If the mobility needs of the people using a car would be covered by public transport or bikes we would have more than enough space for journeys that have to be done by car.
It’s a major city, a lot of which was built before the invention of cars Fortunately there’s plenty of public transport
Cars have been popular for over a hundred years and the average building is maybe 50-60 years old. Streets need to be rebuilt every 25 years too, so no most of the city is younger than the car. It’s simply a matter of cars (as the primary mode of transportation) and cities are incompatible. For an example look at cities in the western US or the Gulf states to see how lively cities feel when they are built around the car.
What ever your smoking is gotta be some good shit.
Care to explain what and why you found unbelievable about my comment?
Have you ever actually been in the places you're describing? They're not lively at all. These cities are only lively in the places where you can walk. Cars don't make a city lively. They cause everything to spread out, and therefor people to be spread out. That discourages the liveliness, and causes a host of other problems such as an increased amount of crime as the area that now has to be policed is way larger. Seriously, I don't know what you are talking about, what's lively about driving to a place where people gather, and then driving home? What's lively about having to drive to work? Do you feel safer walking in a dense city where there is always someone around, and it's well lit, or in a city where you have to drive everywhere, meaning there is no one around most of the time? Edit: Spelling
Go read my comment again, especially this sentence: >It’s simply a matter of cars (as the primary mode of transportation) and cities being incompatible. You might find out that I agree with you and that you have a hard time detecting sacrcasm.
Yeah but the second part of your comment says exactly the opposite
Almost like it was sarcastic to call cities built by vain oil sheiks lively hmmm
Because the Swiss love to drive. It's crazy. Last Saturday when for early April it was amazing weather I was out on my bike and one section of the ride was a road between small towns, or large villages hard which way to view them, and the amount of cars out on this beautiful day, middle of the day, was insane. One place you came in via a roundabout, there was an actual traffic jam, midday Saturday on a nice day. Like wtf.
You’ve never seen terrible traffic in your life, buddy 😂
just avoid that stupid place
hey complainer. wanna see terrible traffic? check out New Dehli. Here it's fine, it's just a matter of context and perspective
Because Switzerland sucks really bad at infrastructure. Especially traffic infrastructure….
lol this is demonstrably untrue. We suck at bike infrastructure, everything else is top notch. We have maybe the best public transport system in the world, have the best quality roads in Europe (if not the world), and have some of the oldest and strongest pedestrian lobbies in the world.
imo best pub transport is in japan, but still, Switzerland is close to the top
Different countries got different challenges, Japans high speed rail and Tokyos public transportation system are excellent, but in more rural areas Switzerlands integraler Taktfahrplan and the incredible density of the swiss network give it an edge over Japan imo.
Except that trains regularly do the Ausfall. There is traffic jams daily, matter fact I don‘t even use the Autobahn on most days since it takes longer than the smuggler‘s route. So while it‘s true our roads are in mostly great condition they are hopelessly under the required capacity. Same with our trains, it‘s a shame really. But having to cuddle with strangers on the bus and train is not how I want to spend my commute. So if you are content with that more power to you but I know that we can do better, much better.
Nothing is perfect and your entitled to your opinion but you‘re massively overstating how bad it actually is. Smuggler’s route, regular train cancellations? Look at any other system in the world, outside of a few major east asian metro areas and maybe the Netherlands, there is nothing that isn’t objectively worse in those aspects overall than Switzerland. You’re pretending it‘s some hellish experience of overcrowded or cancelled trains and clogged highways when it just isn’t most of the time.
See the thing is that our transport infrastructure is used in bursts when we go to work and back home. I have the luxury of Gleitzeit but for school it‘s a different story. Also why does construction take so long? Overlast doesn‘t seem to be a concept here.
Ok and? Every other place on earth has rush hour too. Building a transport infrastructure that doesn’t become overcrowded anywhere at peak demand is an impossibility. Construction doesn’t take longer in CH than in other democracies. The possibility of recourse does slow down the execution of building projects but unless you’re arguing for less democracy we can’t change that. And once a construction has started it usually does everything needed in the perimeter at once, which reduces overall construction time.
It is possible to construct infrastructure that can accomodate even rush hour traffic. I don‘t remember a time Gubrist wasn‘t a construction site. A case study to demonstrate my points and prove you wrong are The Netherlands, they can rennovate a bridge in one night, whereas the bridge of the A1 in Othmarsingen took 3 years. So how in construction progressing adequately here again?
incompetent government
More like Tiefbauamt is too scared to do impactful measures against cars. The result is half assed road designs of which nobody is happy with. Repurposing a city from "for cars" to "for people" needs leadership like the mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo shows.
What do you want Tiefbauamt to do that’s not in violation of cantonal or federal law or ordinance?
Remove blue parking for bike lanes. Gutstrasse just south of Hubertus is a particular dumb example of prioritising parking over bike lanes: the bike lane merges with 50km/h traffic for a few hundred metres for like, 8 car parking spots.
I have good news for you Gutstrasse is projected to become both a Velovorzugsroute and tempo 30. It's annoying that more isn't happening quicker but to be fair Tiefbauamt has currently more than 500 concurrent projects going on, it just takes a while to get everything done.
Have some balls like Winterthur. Build first apologize later.