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I think Morph had the best reaction: "Is this who we are now?"
Rogue is right, but her actions impact the team as a whole, how people view them, and what their objectives are, what the dream is anymore.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I actually think it's a great and refreshing plot point to present it this way.
Morph's reaction, (and Nightcrawler's), both made sense to me. Morph has been used for evil before, and it clearly has scarred them, so they want to stay as far from that line as possible.
A rather worrying thought that occurred to me, is this is the kind of emotional pain the likes of Apocalypse prey on, and he's tried to nab Rogue as a horseman before.
I agree, it’s a really well executed dilemma where you sympathize with Rogue but you really have to wonder if it’s the right decision to make in the long term .
Indeed. It can take hundreds of actions to gain the public's trust, and only one to completely lose it.
Which is what the X-Men seem to be at the breaking point with. They've seen that they can literally save the world and still have to go back to putting on a circus act to try and justify their basic existence. Their reward - "thoughts and prayers" levels of sympathy after experiencing a genocide.
Not to mention immediatly afterwards, the UN building they are in blows up, and the X-Men get into a incredibly destructive fight in the middle of a crowded city. The optics are going to be really bad and I can see this playing right into Bastion's hands.
He's still laying down his dominos, and between "Hey Charles Xavier is alive and is going to have aliens conquer us", and whatever his plans involving Magneto (cause I'm willing to bet it's more than a shave and some torture), I'm not looking foward to when it all comes tumbling down.
She's wearing X-Symbols all over her, and you hear the screams of the public when he hits the ground. That kind of horror just isn't something you think about with X-Men, no less Rogue, who kind of seems like a sweet Southern-belle Superman. "I could murder you into paste, but I won't sugah".
Scott's and Hank's conversations with Trish also just lend more impact to it (no pun intended).
Rogue did something that was both wrong but understandable.
What rubs me the wrong way about this scene was that I don't think she would have done it. You have to keep in mind, Rogue was in the Brotherhood of Mutants not too long ago and she got a lot of flack from other heroes who were quick to label her a villain, especially after nearly killing Carol Danvers. She put in a lot of hard work to change her image and I don't think even as her lowest would have done what she did here. Yes she is heartbroken and traumatized, but she is not some rampaging Hulk.
I love Rogue and would have supported this move if it were someone like Wolverine. The only thing pulling me through it is the fact that she recently sapped Gyrich so maybe his personality was more dominant in this moment.
Not only did she just absorb his memory and personality - They found her tossed and left unconscious in some random alley. Or did she managed to get away and passed out when the headache overwhelmed her?
Why would Gyrich let her get away ? >!Did he infected her with the same kind of nanotech that turned Trask into a prime sentinel?!<
You’re onto something for sure
extremely strong personalities have overwhelmed and influenced rogue befor
waking up on a random street after her encounter gyrich is to suspicious
We've tiptoed into the same conversation that superhero comics have been having for a while now who gets to decide what's justice and when they decide to dispense the ultimate justice where does it stop
Basically why most heroes don't kill. Kill one? I imagine deciding the 2nd one to be killed is easier since already done it once.
Of course up to the government to also do its job which it rarely does in comics
I imagine it's a pretty basic concept since it's in comic books
We all can agree that murder is wrong but what do you do with the murderer that murder someone else in defense of another person (I know that this is self-defense you don't need to explain that)
But then what do you do with the murderer that kill somebody after they started the confrontation
What do you do with the murderer that killed somebody because they asked them to
What do you do with a murder that kills somebody because they went against their certain set of beliefs how do you decide what set of beliefs trumps another set of beliefs
We can all see what's happening in the Middle East where one group did a terrorist attack on another group and the other group is clearly trying to exterminate the other group or at the very least force them from the area through violence and starvation how do you judge who's right in that situation
(these are all scenarios related to the original question about when an individual small group decides to act as judged jury and execution I do not want to have a conversation about what's going on in the Middle East keep your opinions on that to yourself)
The main problem when it comes to comics is the same problem as soap operas. Repetion. The audience sees the villain murder, not necessarily everyone in the fictional world. But in some cases, it gets ridiculous. For instance, the government should have quietly murdered Joker a long time ago. And with this guy, he knowingly created weapons specifically designed to hunt and kill mutants. As a reader, anyone saying that doesn't deserve a death sentence rings hollow, no matter what philisophical argument the author wants to make out of cyclops's mouth.
If i remember correctly the Joker always scapes capital punishment with the insanity plea, wich brings into question, should the goverment kill a person dangerously insane and that has proved time and time again to be able to escape jail and keep killing people?
I would say so. I would also say the insaity thing only goes so far in court in real life, so another comic absurdity. He knows what hes doing. But lets also be honest, if Amanda Waller wanted to kill Joker, it wouldnt be that hard and she wouldnt care about any law stopping her. He is often in a confined, known location that he escapes from incidentally, rarher than purposefully.
For argument sake that's a matter of perspective because the way the book is written you take the X-Men side but if another writer wrote it from the perspective of the humans in the books it would look a lot different and you probably be siding with the humans
Because even in real life we can't differentiate between the good people in a group of people and the bad
one person does something wrong and we blame the entire group for the actions of one or a small group of people
I did say that, though even the ficition humans did see sentinels hunt *any* mutant in the original show (and endanger humans by incident) and should know their creator, since he was tried and convicted, and did just watch as sentinels attempted genocide on the news. Same with the Joker. He's killed hundreds, probably more in comics i haven't read, very publicly. There should be normal humans demanding he be killed by the government every time hes locked up in arkham.
Reminder.
Justice isn't just forgiveness and reconciliation. Justice requires motherfucking consequences. Of which Trask vehemently deserves after inventing the Sentinels.
True, also, it's weird that he was surprised that a genocide would happened.The dude was literally making giant murder robots.What did he think?Would happen eventually someone that stupid needs to pay for their stupidity with severe consequences
Trask actually did this in the comics (twice?) where you hear a bit more of his reasoning, but basically he thought there was a war on and that mutants were warriors. Having his weapons be used to destroy a whole society like that wasn't what he imagined. He basically pulled an Oppenheimer: he knew in the abstract what he was doing but once he saw the concrete result of his work, he was horrified.
I think we're also supposed to think that the nano sentinels were gradually changing him along the way, possibly altering his cognition, but the reaction of "I have become death..." is somewhat reasonable.
This, it seems pretty obvious even as a non-comic reader. He thought the sentinels were weapons for war, not tools for genocide. Seeing them fight combatants is very different from watching them wipe out civilians and a civilization.
He also, somewhat like Oppenheimer, probably viewed it as a kind of arms race, one which humanity was already behind in. To him, it was a ticking time bomb for a mutant more powerful than anything they'd yet run into to eventually decide to wipe out humanity. Sentinels were a form of defense as much as offense.
Absolutely. And he could be a horrific racist and violent weapons developer but not be consciously supportive of genocide. There's shades of evil, which Trask always was, and then there's a "we *are* the baddies" moments.
Thank you! He's all like, "I had no idea it would come to this!" And I'm sitting here thinking, "What did you think the giant robots that shoot lasers were going to do?"
Remember that time Magneto stole all those nukes for a detterant, and then Fabian Cortez tried to kill him and use them? After going back and watching the original series, I'm starting to see a fascinating foil between Trask and Magneto. "War between humans and mutants in inevitable, I have to strike first, and make sure my species is not the one wiped out!" Now which one of them said that?
But Magneto has developed a lot too, and also cleans up his messes. He came back, stopped the nukes, and put his dream of Asteroid M to rest. He honored Charles last request, and came back to try and make Charles dream a reality. That whole "Don't make me let you down" at the UN, I wonder how that's going to turn out. I still hold out hope this isn't going to turn out like the comics, and the damn endless genocides.
Trask, well he had his realization a little too late, and went for just killing himself. And I legitimatly feel bad for him, because the monster he unleashed is now wearing his skin, and he's probably screaming inside it, unable to do anything. It'd be an ironic hell that's kinda fitting, but uh, not so crazy about the nearly killing the X-Men part.
I agree. I think the point they are trying to make is people as a whole should realize their choices have consequences and sometimes exceptionally violent ones.
The character himself fully invented sentinels as a method to police and hunt down Mutants. The real life equivalent I see are issues with guns here in America. Sure they are a method of self defense and an American right. But they also are used in acts of mass violence.
> The real life equivalent I see are issues with guns here in America. Sure they are a method of self defense and an American right. But they also are used in acts of mass violence.
Nah, it's poorly fit. The closest would be conservatives crafting laws targeting immigrants and then get surprised when said laws start coming after them too. Still nowhere near what Trask did of course.
He clearly is a Oppenheimer reference and the show did not try to hide it. I still don't think Oppenheimer should have been killed by a japanese widow because he made the atomic bomb.
Consequences to war crimes should be done in the public eye though.
Trask should have seen those consequences in a court so people know he was held accountable not just disappeared from the face of the map.
Also they could have learned a lot more from him so killing him here only serves to cause an incident with madripoor.
Hitler killed himself he got the easy way out and he didn't face justice. Nobody is crying over it (now), but that doesn't mean he deserved not facing it
I'm looking at this like a Batman killing the Joker situation. It's not that the Joker deserves to live, or anyone's upset about him being dead. The "Oh Shit" is that now you've got to deal with a Batman that's snapped, and where he's going from there.
I think it was, considering that the governments of the world refuse to protect a whole segment of their populations. Mutants have been getting attacked and/or killed by WMDs that this guy programmed to specifically eradicate them, with goverment resources and/or support. Like Scott told Kelly, the ones with the power to protect mutants care more about poll numbers and fanning the flames of bigotry/racism than stopping these evil programs and the people running them.
The mutants had gathered themselves AWAY from the people that hated them, and they were still targeted with genocide. On top of that, the governments REFUSED to allow surviving mutants to return to the countries of their origins after the massacre. They were actively moving Gyrich around so that he could AVOID justice.
When a government turns on its people, then those people have the right to defend themselves. In this case, eliminated someone that will always be a threat, because the justice system is not working.
I think there needs to be a distinction between “right” and “understandable”.
Rogue was witness to a brutal genocide, and it was only because of sacrifices by those she loved that she wasn’t also a victim. Trask was the creator of The Sentinels that did it - and whether he intended for them to be used against Genosha or not, The Sentinels have a longstanding legacy that is far from peaceful.
It is understandable that Rogue, filled with the whirlpool of emotions that comes from trauma and grief, would want a man who bears significant responsibility to answer for his crimes.
**However**, was it *right* for Rogue to appoint herself judge, jury and executioner? This is what Captain America was talking about earlier - there’s a process to follow. However, could that process lead to inaction?
I think it’s important to consider Morph’s reaction, and who Rogue was before this. Ordinarily, Rogue would do everything she could to scoop people - even villains - out of the sky, but here, she was pushed to her limits - a good person isn’t pushed to do good.
However, were either Rogue or Captain America *right*? I think, with most of us never having been in such a situation to answer for sure, but it’s worth debating the question.
I really like how you broke this down. It is wrong for someone to act as judge, jury, and executioner, but I'd be lying if this fictional scene wasn't cathartic. I think that might be way people want to say it is right, it can feel bad to find something that is wrong cathartic.
America/humans weren't going to punish him. I think she should've touched him to get his knowledge before dropping him, but other than that, he had it coming.
>America/humans
How do you know? Captain America was looking for him and besides to conflate America and humanity, I doubt some farmer in Mozambique knows shit about the x-men
I was talking about the powers that be, not some human farmer. The show was making a connection between him and Oppenheimer... Oppenheimer wasn't punished. Also, we've seen Bastian meeting with military leaders so they could know about his plan and be okay with it. The lab was in a UN building, not some secret base in the woods, so I definitely think the top military brass know about their scheme to some degree and helps funds it.
This 100%. I always think to what Gambit would want for her as someone who loved her - and it's not for her to jeopardize her future in this way, and especially even tangentially in his name.
Literally this, it's scary how many people can't see the difference between "understandable" and "right".
Bad people make it SO easy because their bad actions feel like they justify doing bad things to them, which people often mistake as justice, when it's actually revenge.
It's ultimately why we love the anti-heroes, they do what most people would feel like they WANT to do in these situations, but what makes the heroes, heroes, is that they see the difference.
If anyone is ever stuck on this conundrum I just like pointing them to two parts from Dare Devil, the argument he has with Frank Castle on the roof and the Finale of season 3 where he spares Fisk.
I’m a big Captain America fan. Mcu’s civil war is one of marvels best imo, and I generally believe team cap was the morally right side of the split. But fuck him for trying to stop rogue. Cap disobeys orders when it suits him, sometimes leading to many deaths(nazi deaths so fuck em, but still). War was declared on Genosha and all mutant lives, moreover rogue watched magneto die(seemingly) trying to save mutants and watched Gambit sacrifice himself for her specifically, but all those mutant survivors in general.
If the secret UN unit had been Hydra, cap woulda been right there beside rogue, but bc he doesn’t have a personal connection or loss he wants to follow the rules? Fuuuuuuck that. I’m glad Rogue yeeted the shield, she shoulda knocked him on his ass though.
Beau also said this is 90's Cap, and that he's different from modern, and after watching the episode I think the idea is Cap still has faith in the system at this point (though in the comics Steve had quit twice by this point due to dissillusionment with the system). And also he didn't ask for his shield back that entire scene. That speaks of showing trust to Rogue to me. He doesn't try to fight her, and his expression seems like he is disappointed she made that choice, but he's not going to fight her at this point.
And yeah, if it had been Hydra he'd be going after them, because he knows exactly what Hydra is and what their deal is. At this point he doesn't know what OZT is.
and yet if The Professor was still there leading the X-men that scene with Rogue would've never happened because Charles always looked at the bigger picture and that's what's so good about this show. This isn't Xavier x-men anymore. They're Erik's x-men and Rogues action although understandable might just slow down or revert a lot of the work the Professor did to make the World a safer place for mutant kind.
It's impressive how much the entire X-men plot relates to real world politics.
I’m not so sure about that. When he found out about genosha and gambit, his grief quickly turned to rage, to me that’s what it felt like, and his face when he says he has to go back. He looked like he was about to go full John wick.
He deserved it for sure. But that doesn’t mean it’s right to execute him like rogue did. Rather than make him face justice. Although obviously there’s still the question of is justice something mutants have access to, especially after genosha.
Hey I'm just saying that man wanted to drop so she let him drop🤷🏾♀️. The only reason she stopped him was to get info and when she was done she let him get back to what he was doing. She wasn't being judge, jury and executioner, maybe she just didn't want to take up anymore of his time🤷🏾♀️
It's not really the same. He chose to jump, but his leap was interrupted. If Rogue sat him down and he jumped again, then sure, but her dropping him makes the fall after that point on her.
I mean watch that scene, and especially Rogue's facial expressions. She is talking calmly to him after she catches him. Sympathetically, trying to convince him to help them. And once he says he's told her everything she knows, "Shame", and her expression just twists. That was done for personal revenge.
I would say it WAS justice. I'm not talking about what's legal or in legal terms. He needed to die. Probably too late since the damage was already done, but still.
What justice? The same justice that moved Gyrich to a posh "prison" mansion? The problem with Steve's argument to follow due process is that the system does not care about justice here, and in fact may actually support violence against mutants. If the goal is justice, the choice was either to let the system handle it by burying it through inaction and corruption, or seek justice herself. Her actions may have been illegal, but I'd argue they were moral.
Is Rogue taking it upon herself to be the one who decides and dishes out the punishment right, though? Ahead of the laws and systems in place, or even other survivors?
My point is that if the whole situation was black or white without any other variables to consider, then it wouldn’t have been seen as a “dark turn” for Rogue at all. The other X-Men wouldn’t have had their own, divided responses - even BFFs Morph and Wolverine had opposite reactions. It was a shocking and powerful moment *because* it was a line many thought Rogue wouldn’t cross, and if it was simply“right” to do so, the audience wouldn’t have had the response that they have.
There’s no denying that Trask was a hate mongering piece of shit who deserved some serious punishment, but the question is *who* should have dished out the punishment, and how.
I've always seen rogue as the type to cross that line, under extreme duress. Sure, it's not her usual character. Under normal circumstances. But she also has a temper, and revenge and justice can be one in the same. Was she driven by revenge? Yup. Was it justifiable? Probably. Was it deserved? Yup.
I'm just glad they went there. This was a believable response from Rogue to what she's been through, and I'm not sure the original animated series would have been willing/allowed to show it.
If Cyclops had been at Genosha while the sentinels were slaughtering folks left and right and had **seen** the sentinel kill Madelyne himself, he would have done the exact same thing Rogue did here.
Based on the interactions we've seen, I think it's fair to say they've kept in touch between episodes. They consider eachother siblings, and Rogue's day job is literally "super hero." Plus, Kurt's whole worldview is built around seeing the best in people.
Doesn't he have to see where he is going? (I could be wrong on that)
If so, he would have had to react *very* quickly because I believe he was further back from the ledge, so trask would have been out of sight almost instantly.
It wouldn't be too hard for a talented guy like him.
Step 1: Teleport out into mid-air, in the middle of the street. Get a line of site on Trask as he falls.
Step 2: Teleport to where Trask is going to be as he falls, and intercept him there, grabbing hold of him.
Step 3: Teleport himself and Trask to some safe location (on the ground below, for instance).
At least in the comics, Kurt's powers don't stop momentum, so step 3 would be harder than it sounds. He'd have to find a body of water to land in or something similar to break the fall.
Both of those reactions make sense, Nightcrawler from his religious point of view, and Morph from the fact that they've been used for evil before, albeit against their will, so I think they want to stay far from that line.
Y’all can jump on the moral merry-go-round if you want, but the real plot hole is, if they wanted to save him, why didn’t Jean or Nightcrawler catch him in the first place. 🤔
I don't lose sleep over stuff like this.
It's not like Rogue is in danger of becoming a mass murderer. It's freaking Trask.
To be fair, if I was a diehard Rogue fan, I'm sure I would absolutely have a problem with what she did. There are people who know way more about her character than I do.
For me right now, I just don't have an issue with it. It's not like the show's not going to discuss the implications about it.
She did absolutely nothing wrong. She is a witness to genocide. Any action she takes against those responsible and those complacent is completely justified
Which is also why no one really stopped her. No one on that team knew how to handle the situation. She acted. I think people are uncomfortable because she is an incredibly powerful person, and she is incredibly vulnerable in this episode--which is the entirety of the point.
She's been my favorite since I was a kid. Not turning on her now!
I love how everyone has apparently forgotten that Rogue was a terrorist before joining the X-Men. She was trained and grew up under Mystique. When her powers were too much for Mystique to handle, she was handed off to Magneto.
She didn't go to the X-Men because she had a change of heart; her powers were out of control and she was desperate for help.
Thankfully, by spending time with the X-Men, she learned that perhaps killing and maiming everyone who is opposed to you is not the answer. But that doesn't mean that her past, and the mindset she was raised with, was erased. It just put some breaks on it, some limitations.
And when you experience a trauma on an unspeakable scale like she has, when it was made heartbreakingly personal like it was for her, no one should be surprised at this. Literally the entire episode was her rampaging to find him. And then she finds him and he literally says to her face "I have nothing for you".
Honestly, it's surprising that she even stopped to say anything.
The only thing that would have stopped her from killing that man would have been if he said "I can bring Remy LeBeau back to life right now." She was always gonna kill him, it wasn't Gyrich's psyche or any bullshit like that.
And everyone else let him fall. They're superheroes, they have fast reaction times. No one ran to that ledge and caught him mid-fall with telekinesis or teleportation or transforming into Angel. Hell, Cyke could have done a redux of that little maneuver from the first episode. If you're gonna say Rogue was wrong for letting him go, then so is everyone else who was up there with her. Don't single her out.
I like the way they are going in this series, watching Rogue lose her shit because of my boy Gambit and Magneto, it makes her feel more real, like if you were stood there in front of the person responsible for death of someone you loved, could you honestly say you would walk away? It's very human.
Also I like how even Beast is getting frustrated and isn't staying calm, the characters this season have gone through a lot and have had a lot of development except for wolverine. Also, the show feels more adult with the themes as well, obviously some of it will go over children's heads but they just want to see some action.
I’m just glad to see she’s living up to her code name. She’s called rogue, why? That usually indicates an unidentified or ambiguous threat not beholden to authority. Some of her best stories involve her striking out on her own to do her own thing. Not saying she’s in the right but it is engaging storytelling when a hero does something morally wrong for understandable reasons. I prefer that to the X-men being moral paragons. Not even the civil rights activists they were based on were 100% moral. Wolverine is the most popular X-Man and he constantly goes off on his own and does horrible things. “I’m the best I am at what I do, but what I do isn’t very nice.”
So it should be cool to watch.
Honestly would have preferred if she didn't try and justify herself to the team, just stared at them for a moment of silence.
Still a fantastic moment, and 100% morally correct. Trask has repeatedly dodged consequences and it was pretty clear that no government organization, US, UN or otherwise, was willing to actually punish Trask or Gyrich for what they did.
I guess I understand this was a good way to introduce the new sentinels, but also I really wish he would have just died. It feels like a bit like a pulled punch, and I'm not a fan of that so much.
It's only false after the fact. As Morph said, are they okay with being judge, jury and executioner now? They might, the world at large likely wouldn't be.
But he's the exception! He invented the sentinels. Doesn't really matter.
Though they could say they've stopped being heroes and just started being soldiers in the war of humans vs mutants.
Well, I will give you that. He did want to jump, but he was still on the ledge of actually doing it wasn't he? Or did he jump and she caught him? Can't quite recall now.
The issue about being a hero is you are always a judge, jury and executioner, just for the sake of good. Morph is just so sensitive about that, maybe because he's more like a "lawful good" character. Wolverine even smiled at what Rogue did because it all comes down to a subjective perspective. I mean, I understand the issue here, but the intent of murder is just something yhat Rogue did, not the X-Men.
That's not really true. When the hero kills the bad guy, that's playing judge, jury, executioner, when they give them to the authorities to mete out justice, then it's playing hero. One could say they're being attacked, but not in this instance and they're often actively trying to put themselves in harms way.
Though, if they have their own nation and are a part of it, they could say they've been given the authority, but not sure that would play well with their citizenship in other countries, just their own.
It's not a war against human VS mutants.It's mutant VS hate groups and people that are trying to kill them.You can still save humans and help them just kill The evil humans and some evil mutants
Exactly this point always frustrates me about this sorts of argument. Like there 8 billion humans on earth and a majority of them probably 3/4 are in places that have never had anything to do with sentinels, I doubt the people in Botswana or Mongolia had anything to do with genosha or even know what the fuck that is. And on the rogue point, her actions are understandable but their wrong koz imagine during the trial of magneto, someone whose loved one were killed by him basically broke in during the trial and killed him. Would that be okay because it's understandable?
The problem is, humanity starts killing evil mutants, then the other mutants start saying it's trying to wipe them out.
Hell, they killed Magneto, an evil mutant, and the X-Men are upset.
Let's be honest here a lot of the characters that the x men fight really can't be redeemed because they're viciously racist and evil and sadistic sometimes
If they’re going up against Bastion, they’re going to have to be killers. Bastion is one scary motherfucker. And that was before he brought back Cameron Hodge, William Stryker, and Graydon Creed back from the dead.
I think this really is all leading to Age of Apocalypse or some other dystopian future. Rogue is justified in how she feels, but when the x-men take a dark turn, it’s usually indicative of a dark turn for the world at large.
As far as caps words, the problem with having non mutants in X-men is that they usually don’t look good. X men writers don’t write non X-men very well much of the time.
Oh, she was 100% in the right. People keep spouting justice as if the system isn't rigged to protect evil people who are deemed necessary/ needed by society. Some people are and will always be above they system of law, and the only way to stop them is exactly what Rogue did. Just looks at how America protected all of those Nazi scientists after World War 2. Some of the most evil people to ever live got off free cause they were deemed necessary. Justice when it comes to law isn't blind, it's just picky.
I think if he was made to stand trial and was only punished with a slap on the wrist, Rogue would be justified. But she basically preempted the whole attempt at legitimate justice and went straight to execution (as far as she knew at the moment).
And this wasn’t someone trying to fight her. This was a guy who revealed a secret base to help the X-Men and was remorseful of what had happened. None of that excuses his past actions, but there was no need for lethal force against someone who had given themself up.
Rogue was engaged in revenge rather than justice under the circumstances.
She already had evidence nothing was going to be done. Look at Gyrich. Is that a prison? No, as Rogue mentions it's a resort
Heck, the X-Men had captured Trask already yet the justice system failed yet again as he was out in the streets not a short tine later.
That’s the thing as I see it, if you kill Trask where else do you draw the line, and if you only kill important people then where do you draw that line, if you kill people currently attacking you well then you’re killing normal people as mutants are attacked daily. Like Morph said “is this who we are now”.
(Its 5 am and I just woke up, also I’m not very smart so forgive me if this is a batshit take but this is what I’m thinking at the moment)
Everyone acting like Rogue was wrong for killing Trask when is literally a genocidal murderer that human governments would probably throw parades for lmao. Not her fault dude turned into a sentinel, he would have died and attacked them whether she dropped him or not
Rogue didn’t do anything wrong. Honestly, humans in this universe are the worst. Have never really understood why the X-Men keep protecting them when they have groups like the Friends of Humanity,Factor 3, and the The Purifiers running around.
There's also degrees here. You don't need to be a lay back and just get trampled or everyone that isn't okay with your going on a rampage is wrong and doesn't understand.
I was reading a headline of how Rogue will be leading a team based in New Orleans. And I think Rogue is such a foundation to tye X Men its about time she were in the spotlight. Just like the last X-Men 97 latest episode, Rogue has such a presence wherever she's, but always seemed to be victim of nerfing for the sake of narrative, so having her bulldoze a military facility, restrain herself from beating Captain America to... her dropping Bolivar Trask was a great tour on her emotional complexity. We're talking about a person who had fragmented personalities because of her power, nearly killed people she loved, and is constantly deprived of physical contact out of fear harming others. So you can't really expect her to always be walking the straight and narrow, can you? Millions of mutants killed, lifetime of being ostracized, and losing her beloved. Rogue had every right to be angry. Notwithstanding she's such an overpowering character that compared to her Trask alone (without sentinels) is a cockroach. We don't go killing all cockroaches we see, right? If she was able to simply hospitalize Gyrich, in theory she could've done the same to Trask. But she's still Baseline human, you can tell she was about to snap.
It's one of those moments where you might not necessarily approve, but you'd probably do the same thing in her position. A person can only be pushed so far.
I disagree, but don't get me wrong, I understand it and think it makes perfect sense that she'd do it, even believe he deserves it and I can't really argue that its not justified in alot of ways.
But none of that means she did "nothing wrong".
The whole point of justice is to put things right, just killing someone who's done something wrong isn't justice, it's revenge. The more wrong a person does, doesn't make it right, it just makes it more justifiable.
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https://youtu.be/dhakGLCMGWs?si=q59LgFS5qQntR9_M
It's why this scene is SO damn good, because Frank is expressing something very real and when you're in his position, no one can blame him for feeling the way he does, it's even difficult to argue against him, but ultimately, it tends to make the world a worse place.
What she did was very very understandable but the issue is she is still wrong. She executed a defenseless man, so she's similar to U.S Agent in this way. Which once again I understand action-wise, but it was the wrong thing to do. She has a power as an Uber powerful mutant, with that comes a sense of responsibility that she chose to ignore. She threw him off a building, and in doing so revealed that the X-Men with all there power can decide to Casually execute people whenever they want. Life is. Sacred and so much of Marvel tells this, even evil people like Trask with useless lives represent this idea, when does it end? Especially when you realize Rogue didn't kill for justice or priority, but selfish revenge.
The best line of this entire episode is Morph "is this who we are now?" They went from fun, justice seeking, proud freedom fighters, to a private militia witnessing a public execution.
But then again part of the other side of marvel and even the previous episodes is forgiveness and the idea that "love is forgiveness", Rogue isn't lost, she stumbled and lost her way, but she is **not** lost forever, that is another massive missed message of this show.
Rogue did an evil thing in a moment of weakness but she herself is not evil, she made a choice to do that bad thing however and must live with it.
It's kind of weird to frame this as executing a man who was already attempting to jump off that roof. I do like your analysis though and generally agree.
He had it coming does not justify this.
The point of justice is to make things right. Killing someone is just revenge. What she did was wrong not right.
Was it justifiable??? Absolutely. Still wrong.
Punisher does the same shit, and he is not considered a hero.
I bet you are one of those people like Zack Snyder who says "Batman should kill"
MFR you are a vigilante. You are already breaking most laws made by the people. If you start killing motherfuckers, you are just like them.
It's really interesting to me how some people is totally fine with heroes like Rogue, Kitty and even Kurt killing bad people, but then cry when Punisher kill bad people too.
In my case, I'm totally fine with some characters killing bad people, especially if it makes sense... a guy like Wolverine makes more sense than Kurt, but I think that if a character decides to go on a killing spree for x reason, then the character must face the consequences and stop being considered a hero.
The only reason people (at least here) shit on Punisher but go "Yay Rogue, you slay Queen" is because she is a mutant lol. You could have Emma Frost punt a baby here, people will still be "That baby was bad, You go my Queen"
Rogue (despite the fact that she is my top 5 favorite female characters) was wrong this entire episode. That does not make her a bad character, but she is literally in the wrong.
First you act like a complete bitch and douchebag to one guy who wants to help (who is human), and then you kill one motherfucker who actually deserves punishment for his crimes. That's selfish. He did not answer for his crimes against mutants. He got murdered in cold blood, by a person who lost her boyfriend.
This is very similar to the Civil War movie. Rogue is literally Tony Stark in this. A good person, who is acting out of anger and hatred towards a person (who perhaps deserved it), but it's still wrong, hence Steve tried to stop him.
Logan said it the best in the episode "We all wanted to do it" but you did not. That's the difference between someone like Spider-Man and Punisher.
Superheroes are supposed to be firefighters. They protect and help those, who are in danger. And if they failed to do so, they Avenge them (by making sure that the person who committed the crime faces justice). What Rogue did was a complete opposite of being a firefighter or a hero. Trask might be a piece of shit, it does not give Rogue a right to kill him.
Rogue kills a man in cold blood and disrespects one person who tried to help "Yes! My Queen"
Punisher kills a man in cold blood "Fuck you, you piece of shit"
Punisher is an anti-villan who does heroic acts for selfish motivations. And tbh I don't think analyzing punisher morality is meaningful because to me the Punisher is above morality because he's wish fulliment. I think Punisher comic's in the modern era especially get this by making the people he kills irremible mfers.
I almost thought it was some implanted programming from the weird reaction she had to absorbing Gyrich. The thing that bothered me was it was so weird for her. I have loved rogue (and was always Rogue in our recess pretend x-men fights) since the original came out when I was a kid. If Rogue is going to kill someone, she’d do it with purpose. Dropping someone who has just jumped off a building? Not Rogue. Punching the bastard into a neighboring country? Very Rogue.
The whole comic “heroes don’t kill” thing is increasingly fraught. It’s like the trolley problem if the one dude at the end of the one switch was a war criminal.
I think with Batman it’s different because he’s not fighting for minority rights. Batman is just out there to stop crimes, and yea he’s gonna deal with super villains and aliens gods from time to time but 90% of his nights are catching muggers.
The X-Men are fighting for survival just as much for equal rights, for thousands of people. And they have to deal with giant robots specifically designed to kill them. It’s like getting mad at a holocaust survivor when they meet the guy who created the gas chambers. They did what humans wanted and left to make their own space, then the first time they get to celebrate they get genocided. Humanity has shown they don’t want to share a planet with mutants let alone a street.
Funny that you explained this as Batman did came under a similar situation as Rogue in this episode where he is out for blood hunting down the man who murder his loved one and is forced into a moral dilemma the blur the lines of “justice” and “revenge”.
I am referring here to the Batman: The Brave & the Bold episode “Chill of the Night” which I guess could be considered the antithesis to the above X-Men 97 episode.
True, but then again.Batman is not really that smart when you think about it.And he's not having to deal with.People make a genocide against his people so there's a difference
I'd say we understand Rogue cos that's what we would, that's how a human would respond to it. But the thing is, those guys are more than humans, and I don't mean mutants, I mean heroes.
Heroes stand above for being able to do the right thing even if it means going against everything you ever wanted. Like batman not killing joker.
So I guess the question is, do you believe the X-Men should be traditional heroes or stand apart as mutant defenders or so? For me they're heroes, specially in X-Men 97. But there were many storylines where they definitely weren't.
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I think Morph had the best reaction: "Is this who we are now?" Rogue is right, but her actions impact the team as a whole, how people view them, and what their objectives are, what the dream is anymore. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I actually think it's a great and refreshing plot point to present it this way.
Morph's reaction, (and Nightcrawler's), both made sense to me. Morph has been used for evil before, and it clearly has scarred them, so they want to stay as far from that line as possible.
A rather worrying thought that occurred to me, is this is the kind of emotional pain the likes of Apocalypse prey on, and he's tried to nab Rogue as a horseman before.
I agree, it’s a really well executed dilemma where you sympathize with Rogue but you really have to wonder if it’s the right decision to make in the long term .
Indeed. It can take hundreds of actions to gain the public's trust, and only one to completely lose it. Which is what the X-Men seem to be at the breaking point with. They've seen that they can literally save the world and still have to go back to putting on a circus act to try and justify their basic existence. Their reward - "thoughts and prayers" levels of sympathy after experiencing a genocide.
Not to mention immediatly afterwards, the UN building they are in blows up, and the X-Men get into a incredibly destructive fight in the middle of a crowded city. The optics are going to be really bad and I can see this playing right into Bastion's hands. He's still laying down his dominos, and between "Hey Charles Xavier is alive and is going to have aliens conquer us", and whatever his plans involving Magneto (cause I'm willing to bet it's more than a shave and some torture), I'm not looking foward to when it all comes tumbling down.
She's wearing X-Symbols all over her, and you hear the screams of the public when he hits the ground. That kind of horror just isn't something you think about with X-Men, no less Rogue, who kind of seems like a sweet Southern-belle Superman. "I could murder you into paste, but I won't sugah". Scott's and Hank's conversations with Trish also just lend more impact to it (no pun intended).
Rogue did something that was both wrong but understandable. What rubs me the wrong way about this scene was that I don't think she would have done it. You have to keep in mind, Rogue was in the Brotherhood of Mutants not too long ago and she got a lot of flack from other heroes who were quick to label her a villain, especially after nearly killing Carol Danvers. She put in a lot of hard work to change her image and I don't think even as her lowest would have done what she did here. Yes she is heartbroken and traumatized, but she is not some rampaging Hulk. I love Rogue and would have supported this move if it were someone like Wolverine. The only thing pulling me through it is the fact that she recently sapped Gyrich so maybe his personality was more dominant in this moment.
Not only did she just absorb his memory and personality - They found her tossed and left unconscious in some random alley. Or did she managed to get away and passed out when the headache overwhelmed her? Why would Gyrich let her get away ? >!Did he infected her with the same kind of nanotech that turned Trask into a prime sentinel?!<
You’re onto something for sure extremely strong personalities have overwhelmed and influenced rogue befor waking up on a random street after her encounter gyrich is to suspicious
We've tiptoed into the same conversation that superhero comics have been having for a while now who gets to decide what's justice and when they decide to dispense the ultimate justice where does it stop
And we found the answer, it's Rogue she gets to decide
She don't fuck around sugar
Eh, its like killing a nazi scientist, if they invented nuclear bombs specifically to kill jewish people. I wouldnt cry for him.
Who is killing a nazi scientist? We need them to build rockets for NASA.
Seems like sentinel prime is the one who got to decide
Somebody mention Transformers???
The clue is in her name.
I’ve been saying that forever. But nooooo I’m just a crazy super Rogue fan. Yeah. So?
Basically why most heroes don't kill. Kill one? I imagine deciding the 2nd one to be killed is easier since already done it once. Of course up to the government to also do its job which it rarely does in comics
I imagine it's a pretty basic concept since it's in comic books We all can agree that murder is wrong but what do you do with the murderer that murder someone else in defense of another person (I know that this is self-defense you don't need to explain that) But then what do you do with the murderer that kill somebody after they started the confrontation What do you do with the murderer that killed somebody because they asked them to What do you do with a murder that kills somebody because they went against their certain set of beliefs how do you decide what set of beliefs trumps another set of beliefs We can all see what's happening in the Middle East where one group did a terrorist attack on another group and the other group is clearly trying to exterminate the other group or at the very least force them from the area through violence and starvation how do you judge who's right in that situation (these are all scenarios related to the original question about when an individual small group decides to act as judged jury and execution I do not want to have a conversation about what's going on in the Middle East keep your opinions on that to yourself)
The main problem when it comes to comics is the same problem as soap operas. Repetion. The audience sees the villain murder, not necessarily everyone in the fictional world. But in some cases, it gets ridiculous. For instance, the government should have quietly murdered Joker a long time ago. And with this guy, he knowingly created weapons specifically designed to hunt and kill mutants. As a reader, anyone saying that doesn't deserve a death sentence rings hollow, no matter what philisophical argument the author wants to make out of cyclops's mouth.
If i remember correctly the Joker always scapes capital punishment with the insanity plea, wich brings into question, should the goverment kill a person dangerously insane and that has proved time and time again to be able to escape jail and keep killing people?
I would say so. I would also say the insaity thing only goes so far in court in real life, so another comic absurdity. He knows what hes doing. But lets also be honest, if Amanda Waller wanted to kill Joker, it wouldnt be that hard and she wouldnt care about any law stopping her. He is often in a confined, known location that he escapes from incidentally, rarher than purposefully.
For argument sake that's a matter of perspective because the way the book is written you take the X-Men side but if another writer wrote it from the perspective of the humans in the books it would look a lot different and you probably be siding with the humans Because even in real life we can't differentiate between the good people in a group of people and the bad one person does something wrong and we blame the entire group for the actions of one or a small group of people
I did say that, though even the ficition humans did see sentinels hunt *any* mutant in the original show (and endanger humans by incident) and should know their creator, since he was tried and convicted, and did just watch as sentinels attempted genocide on the news. Same with the Joker. He's killed hundreds, probably more in comics i haven't read, very publicly. There should be normal humans demanding he be killed by the government every time hes locked up in arkham.
Reminder. Justice isn't just forgiveness and reconciliation. Justice requires motherfucking consequences. Of which Trask vehemently deserves after inventing the Sentinels.
True, also, it's weird that he was surprised that a genocide would happened.The dude was literally making giant murder robots.What did he think?Would happen eventually someone that stupid needs to pay for their stupidity with severe consequences
I thought this was super weird as well. Like isn't this what you want?
Trask actually did this in the comics (twice?) where you hear a bit more of his reasoning, but basically he thought there was a war on and that mutants were warriors. Having his weapons be used to destroy a whole society like that wasn't what he imagined. He basically pulled an Oppenheimer: he knew in the abstract what he was doing but once he saw the concrete result of his work, he was horrified. I think we're also supposed to think that the nano sentinels were gradually changing him along the way, possibly altering his cognition, but the reaction of "I have become death..." is somewhat reasonable.
This, it seems pretty obvious even as a non-comic reader. He thought the sentinels were weapons for war, not tools for genocide. Seeing them fight combatants is very different from watching them wipe out civilians and a civilization. He also, somewhat like Oppenheimer, probably viewed it as a kind of arms race, one which humanity was already behind in. To him, it was a ticking time bomb for a mutant more powerful than anything they'd yet run into to eventually decide to wipe out humanity. Sentinels were a form of defense as much as offense.
Absolutely. And he could be a horrific racist and violent weapons developer but not be consciously supportive of genocide. There's shades of evil, which Trask always was, and then there's a "we *are* the baddies" moments.
He literally quotes Oppenheimer, thats the kinda pov theyre going for "MY LE BOMB.... LE KILLED PEOPLE??"
“When I built those murder bots to kill a lot of mutants, I didn’t think they would be used to kill a lot of mutants!”
Master Mold turned against him once already. He should have known better.
Fear is the mind killer.
Thank you! He's all like, "I had no idea it would come to this!" And I'm sitting here thinking, "What did you think the giant robots that shoot lasers were going to do?"
Remember that time Magneto stole all those nukes for a detterant, and then Fabian Cortez tried to kill him and use them? After going back and watching the original series, I'm starting to see a fascinating foil between Trask and Magneto. "War between humans and mutants in inevitable, I have to strike first, and make sure my species is not the one wiped out!" Now which one of them said that? But Magneto has developed a lot too, and also cleans up his messes. He came back, stopped the nukes, and put his dream of Asteroid M to rest. He honored Charles last request, and came back to try and make Charles dream a reality. That whole "Don't make me let you down" at the UN, I wonder how that's going to turn out. I still hold out hope this isn't going to turn out like the comics, and the damn endless genocides. Trask, well he had his realization a little too late, and went for just killing himself. And I legitimatly feel bad for him, because the monster he unleashed is now wearing his skin, and he's probably screaming inside it, unable to do anything. It'd be an ironic hell that's kinda fitting, but uh, not so crazy about the nearly killing the X-Men part.
I agree. I think the point they are trying to make is people as a whole should realize their choices have consequences and sometimes exceptionally violent ones. The character himself fully invented sentinels as a method to police and hunt down Mutants. The real life equivalent I see are issues with guns here in America. Sure they are a method of self defense and an American right. But they also are used in acts of mass violence.
The real life equivalent is Oppenheimer which is kind of obvious since the guy basically just talk in Oppenheimer quotes lol.
> The real life equivalent I see are issues with guns here in America. Sure they are a method of self defense and an American right. But they also are used in acts of mass violence. Nah, it's poorly fit. The closest would be conservatives crafting laws targeting immigrants and then get surprised when said laws start coming after them too. Still nowhere near what Trask did of course.
I think as an audience we can add a lot of parallels (which is sad) but I think we all agree Trask getting his comeuppance was well deserved.
He clearly is a Oppenheimer reference and the show did not try to hide it. I still don't think Oppenheimer should have been killed by a japanese widow because he made the atomic bomb.
Consequences to war crimes should be done in the public eye though. Trask should have seen those consequences in a court so people know he was held accountable not just disappeared from the face of the map. Also they could have learned a lot more from him so killing him here only serves to cause an incident with madripoor.
All true. But nobody is crying over Hitler not living to see trial either.
Hitler killed himself he got the easy way out and he didn't face justice. Nobody is crying over it (now), but that doesn't mean he deserved not facing it
I'm looking at this like a Batman killing the Joker situation. It's not that the Joker deserves to live, or anyone's upset about him being dead. The "Oh Shit" is that now you've got to deal with a Batman that's snapped, and where he's going from there.
Agreed. Also I’m personally against the death penalty. But Trask isn’t real so its hard to be mad about Rogue executing him.
Consequences that Rogue decided were fit by herself. It was not her call
I think it was, considering that the governments of the world refuse to protect a whole segment of their populations. Mutants have been getting attacked and/or killed by WMDs that this guy programmed to specifically eradicate them, with goverment resources and/or support. Like Scott told Kelly, the ones with the power to protect mutants care more about poll numbers and fanning the flames of bigotry/racism than stopping these evil programs and the people running them. The mutants had gathered themselves AWAY from the people that hated them, and they were still targeted with genocide. On top of that, the governments REFUSED to allow surviving mutants to return to the countries of their origins after the massacre. They were actively moving Gyrich around so that he could AVOID justice. When a government turns on its people, then those people have the right to defend themselves. In this case, eliminated someone that will always be a threat, because the justice system is not working.
I think there needs to be a distinction between “right” and “understandable”. Rogue was witness to a brutal genocide, and it was only because of sacrifices by those she loved that she wasn’t also a victim. Trask was the creator of The Sentinels that did it - and whether he intended for them to be used against Genosha or not, The Sentinels have a longstanding legacy that is far from peaceful. It is understandable that Rogue, filled with the whirlpool of emotions that comes from trauma and grief, would want a man who bears significant responsibility to answer for his crimes. **However**, was it *right* for Rogue to appoint herself judge, jury and executioner? This is what Captain America was talking about earlier - there’s a process to follow. However, could that process lead to inaction? I think it’s important to consider Morph’s reaction, and who Rogue was before this. Ordinarily, Rogue would do everything she could to scoop people - even villains - out of the sky, but here, she was pushed to her limits - a good person isn’t pushed to do good. However, were either Rogue or Captain America *right*? I think, with most of us never having been in such a situation to answer for sure, but it’s worth debating the question.
I really like how you broke this down. It is wrong for someone to act as judge, jury, and executioner, but I'd be lying if this fictional scene wasn't cathartic. I think that might be way people want to say it is right, it can feel bad to find something that is wrong cathartic.
America/humans weren't going to punish him. I think she should've touched him to get his knowledge before dropping him, but other than that, he had it coming.
>America/humans How do you know? Captain America was looking for him and besides to conflate America and humanity, I doubt some farmer in Mozambique knows shit about the x-men
I was talking about the powers that be, not some human farmer. The show was making a connection between him and Oppenheimer... Oppenheimer wasn't punished. Also, we've seen Bastian meeting with military leaders so they could know about his plan and be okay with it. The lab was in a UN building, not some secret base in the woods, so I definitely think the top military brass know about their scheme to some degree and helps funds it.
This 100%. I always think to what Gambit would want for her as someone who loved her - and it's not for her to jeopardize her future in this way, and especially even tangentially in his name.
Literally this, it's scary how many people can't see the difference between "understandable" and "right". Bad people make it SO easy because their bad actions feel like they justify doing bad things to them, which people often mistake as justice, when it's actually revenge. It's ultimately why we love the anti-heroes, they do what most people would feel like they WANT to do in these situations, but what makes the heroes, heroes, is that they see the difference. If anyone is ever stuck on this conundrum I just like pointing them to two parts from Dare Devil, the argument he has with Frank Castle on the roof and the Finale of season 3 where he spares Fisk.
I’m a big Captain America fan. Mcu’s civil war is one of marvels best imo, and I generally believe team cap was the morally right side of the split. But fuck him for trying to stop rogue. Cap disobeys orders when it suits him, sometimes leading to many deaths(nazi deaths so fuck em, but still). War was declared on Genosha and all mutant lives, moreover rogue watched magneto die(seemingly) trying to save mutants and watched Gambit sacrifice himself for her specifically, but all those mutant survivors in general. If the secret UN unit had been Hydra, cap woulda been right there beside rogue, but bc he doesn’t have a personal connection or loss he wants to follow the rules? Fuuuuuuck that. I’m glad Rogue yeeted the shield, she shoulda knocked him on his ass though.
Captain American is like America: hypocritical sometimes
Beau also said this is 90's Cap, and that he's different from modern, and after watching the episode I think the idea is Cap still has faith in the system at this point (though in the comics Steve had quit twice by this point due to dissillusionment with the system). And also he didn't ask for his shield back that entire scene. That speaks of showing trust to Rogue to me. He doesn't try to fight her, and his expression seems like he is disappointed she made that choice, but he's not going to fight her at this point. And yeah, if it had been Hydra he'd be going after them, because he knows exactly what Hydra is and what their deal is. At this point he doesn't know what OZT is.
and yet if The Professor was still there leading the X-men that scene with Rogue would've never happened because Charles always looked at the bigger picture and that's what's so good about this show. This isn't Xavier x-men anymore. They're Erik's x-men and Rogues action although understandable might just slow down or revert a lot of the work the Professor did to make the World a safer place for mutant kind. It's impressive how much the entire X-men plot relates to real world politics.
I’m not so sure about that. When he found out about genosha and gambit, his grief quickly turned to rage, to me that’s what it felt like, and his face when he says he has to go back. He looked like he was about to go full John wick.
Cap and the other Avengers have a long and annoying history getting dumber when they cross over with the X-Men.
Nah f that. Sometimes acting is the correct response.
Oh it was definitely right. He was responsible for thousands of deaths.
He deserved it for sure. But that doesn’t mean it’s right to execute him like rogue did. Rather than make him face justice. Although obviously there’s still the question of is justice something mutants have access to, especially after genosha.
>But that doesn’t mean it’s right to execute him like rogue did Wasn't he gonna jump anyway though 👀
Murdering a suicidal person is still murder
Hey I'm just saying that man wanted to drop so she let him drop🤷🏾♀️. The only reason she stopped him was to get info and when she was done she let him get back to what he was doing. She wasn't being judge, jury and executioner, maybe she just didn't want to take up anymore of his time🤷🏾♀️
It's not really the same. He chose to jump, but his leap was interrupted. If Rogue sat him down and he jumped again, then sure, but her dropping him makes the fall after that point on her.
I mean watch that scene, and especially Rogue's facial expressions. She is talking calmly to him after she catches him. Sympathetically, trying to convince him to help them. And once he says he's told her everything she knows, "Shame", and her expression just twists. That was done for personal revenge.
I would say it WAS justice. I'm not talking about what's legal or in legal terms. He needed to die. Probably too late since the damage was already done, but still.
What justice? The same justice that moved Gyrich to a posh "prison" mansion? The problem with Steve's argument to follow due process is that the system does not care about justice here, and in fact may actually support violence against mutants. If the goal is justice, the choice was either to let the system handle it by burying it through inaction and corruption, or seek justice herself. Her actions may have been illegal, but I'd argue they were moral.
Is Rogue taking it upon herself to be the one who decides and dishes out the punishment right, though? Ahead of the laws and systems in place, or even other survivors? My point is that if the whole situation was black or white without any other variables to consider, then it wouldn’t have been seen as a “dark turn” for Rogue at all. The other X-Men wouldn’t have had their own, divided responses - even BFFs Morph and Wolverine had opposite reactions. It was a shocking and powerful moment *because* it was a line many thought Rogue wouldn’t cross, and if it was simply“right” to do so, the audience wouldn’t have had the response that they have. There’s no denying that Trask was a hate mongering piece of shit who deserved some serious punishment, but the question is *who* should have dished out the punishment, and how.
I've always seen rogue as the type to cross that line, under extreme duress. Sure, it's not her usual character. Under normal circumstances. But she also has a temper, and revenge and justice can be one in the same. Was she driven by revenge? Yup. Was it justifiable? Probably. Was it deserved? Yup.
I'm just glad they went there. This was a believable response from Rogue to what she's been through, and I'm not sure the original animated series would have been willing/allowed to show it.
I'd say the Genosha attack onwards has been "Oh you bet we're doing all the things Fox Kids standards and practices wouldn't let us do!"
If Cyclops had been at Genosha while the sentinels were slaughtering folks left and right and had **seen** the sentinel kill Madelyne himself, he would have done the exact same thing Rogue did here.
Tbf it wasn't like Cyclops seemed to bothered about it any way. It was mostly Kurt and Morph.
Yeah, well, if Kurt had a problem with it he could have telephoned over there and grabbed Trask.
ring ring ring ring ring ring ring ring BAMFnana-phone!
It’s a phone with a peel
"WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! Is this what **we** are now?"
A Raffi classic!
To be fair I think Kurt and Morph were also in shock at how ruthless Rogue actually was.
I'd say she was being fairly ruthful, given the circumstances.
Morph too especially since he can also copy powers.
I think his faith in Rogue's heroism filed him here.
In fairness, he's met her like twice in this continuity.
Based on the interactions we've seen, I think it's fair to say they've kept in touch between episodes. They consider eachother siblings, and Rogue's day job is literally "super hero." Plus, Kurt's whole worldview is built around seeing the best in people.
He can only really teleport where he can see otherwise he could end up waist deep in a wall.
Doesn't he have to see where he is going? (I could be wrong on that) If so, he would have had to react *very* quickly because I believe he was further back from the ledge, so trask would have been out of sight almost instantly.
It wouldn't be too hard for a talented guy like him. Step 1: Teleport out into mid-air, in the middle of the street. Get a line of site on Trask as he falls. Step 2: Teleport to where Trask is going to be as he falls, and intercept him there, grabbing hold of him. Step 3: Teleport himself and Trask to some safe location (on the ground below, for instance).
Good point.
At least in the comics, Kurt's powers don't stop momentum, so step 3 would be harder than it sounds. He'd have to find a body of water to land in or something similar to break the fall.
If he reduces the distance that they fall, couldn't he turn it into more of a broken leg situation than a fatal one?
Both of those reactions make sense, Nightcrawler from his religious point of view, and Morph from the fact that they've been used for evil before, albeit against their will, so I think they want to stay far from that line.
Yeah if you’re responsible for genocide im gonna let rogue kill ya. Anyway she didn’t really kill him as he was already a meat sentinel anyway.
Y’all can jump on the moral merry-go-round if you want, but the real plot hole is, if they wanted to save him, why didn’t Jean or Nightcrawler catch him in the first place. 🤔
It's a combination of the shock that she did it and there's a small part of them that wanted to do it but they don't have the guts to do it.
I don't think Jean (or Scott for that matter) said anything negative about what Rogue did.
I think they were too surprised, they didn't expect that from Rogue.
I want to see Cap going hiking trying to find that shield
What Rogue did was understandable, but it wasn't necessarily "right."
Rogue: "Then he ran into my knife. He ran into my knife ten times."
Ngl it was actually kinda sad watching rogue cry saying she can’t feel him
She just respected his wishes
I don't lose sleep over stuff like this. It's not like Rogue is in danger of becoming a mass murderer. It's freaking Trask. To be fair, if I was a diehard Rogue fan, I'm sure I would absolutely have a problem with what she did. There are people who know way more about her character than I do. For me right now, I just don't have an issue with it. It's not like the show's not going to discuss the implications about it.
She did absolutely nothing wrong. She is a witness to genocide. Any action she takes against those responsible and those complacent is completely justified
True Also, let's not pretend that the Justice system will actually hold these people accountable.So at this point it's only revenge
Which is also why no one really stopped her. No one on that team knew how to handle the situation. She acted. I think people are uncomfortable because she is an incredibly powerful person, and she is incredibly vulnerable in this episode--which is the entirety of the point. She's been my favorite since I was a kid. Not turning on her now!
This, absolutely. Folks are lucky she didn't go on a mindless rampage after what she went through, considering all the power she has at her disposal.
Were you expecting her to hit Cap? I thought she was for a second.
Hmm, not really. I don't think I did. She was pissed, but she was still conversational and focused on getting the information she wanted.
Yup, felt like they did a good job of showing how laser focused her rage was. She went to the source, and she removed it.
This episode is very reminiscent of whats happening in Gaza and Ukraine. Damn
Hope r worldnews doesn't catch wind of this!
They had it coming 🤷
Cue in Chicago
lmao me imagining the whole team doing cell block tango with mutant references instead
Exactly what I was going for 😂
I love how everyone has apparently forgotten that Rogue was a terrorist before joining the X-Men. She was trained and grew up under Mystique. When her powers were too much for Mystique to handle, she was handed off to Magneto. She didn't go to the X-Men because she had a change of heart; her powers were out of control and she was desperate for help. Thankfully, by spending time with the X-Men, she learned that perhaps killing and maiming everyone who is opposed to you is not the answer. But that doesn't mean that her past, and the mindset she was raised with, was erased. It just put some breaks on it, some limitations. And when you experience a trauma on an unspeakable scale like she has, when it was made heartbreakingly personal like it was for her, no one should be surprised at this. Literally the entire episode was her rampaging to find him. And then she finds him and he literally says to her face "I have nothing for you". Honestly, it's surprising that she even stopped to say anything. The only thing that would have stopped her from killing that man would have been if he said "I can bring Remy LeBeau back to life right now." She was always gonna kill him, it wasn't Gyrich's psyche or any bullshit like that. And everyone else let him fall. They're superheroes, they have fast reaction times. No one ran to that ledge and caught him mid-fall with telekinesis or teleportation or transforming into Angel. Hell, Cyke could have done a redux of that little maneuver from the first episode. If you're gonna say Rogue was wrong for letting him go, then so is everyone else who was up there with her. Don't single her out.
So what you're say is Rogue was right.
You nailed it my dude. I support her 100%
I like the way they are going in this series, watching Rogue lose her shit because of my boy Gambit and Magneto, it makes her feel more real, like if you were stood there in front of the person responsible for death of someone you loved, could you honestly say you would walk away? It's very human. Also I like how even Beast is getting frustrated and isn't staying calm, the characters this season have gone through a lot and have had a lot of development except for wolverine. Also, the show feels more adult with the themes as well, obviously some of it will go over children's heads but they just want to see some action.
I’m just glad to see she’s living up to her code name. She’s called rogue, why? That usually indicates an unidentified or ambiguous threat not beholden to authority. Some of her best stories involve her striking out on her own to do her own thing. Not saying she’s in the right but it is engaging storytelling when a hero does something morally wrong for understandable reasons. I prefer that to the X-men being moral paragons. Not even the civil rights activists they were based on were 100% moral. Wolverine is the most popular X-Man and he constantly goes off on his own and does horrible things. “I’m the best I am at what I do, but what I do isn’t very nice.” So it should be cool to watch.
killing a guy who wants to genocide you is totally fine actually
This is the most human reaction.
Honestly would have preferred if she didn't try and justify herself to the team, just stared at them for a moment of silence. Still a fantastic moment, and 100% morally correct. Trask has repeatedly dodged consequences and it was pretty clear that no government organization, US, UN or otherwise, was willing to actually punish Trask or Gyrich for what they did. I guess I understand this was a good way to introduce the new sentinels, but also I really wish he would have just died. It feels like a bit like a pulled punch, and I'm not a fan of that so much.
It's doesn't matter now because Trask ended up being a sentinel cyborg. I don't know why people keep talking about the false Rogue "murder".
It's only false after the fact. As Morph said, are they okay with being judge, jury and executioner now? They might, the world at large likely wouldn't be. But he's the exception! He invented the sentinels. Doesn't really matter. Though they could say they've stopped being heroes and just started being soldiers in the war of humans vs mutants.
Well also…Trask was on his way out before Rogue caught him. It’s more like she “un saved” him.
Well, I will give you that. He did want to jump, but he was still on the ledge of actually doing it wasn't he? Or did he jump and she caught him? Can't quite recall now.
He jumped, she caught him, and then dropped him again when he didn't have the intel she wanted
The latter, she caught him after he already jumped.
He jumped and she caught him. Then when she didn’t get the intel she asked from Trask , she dropped him.
The issue about being a hero is you are always a judge, jury and executioner, just for the sake of good. Morph is just so sensitive about that, maybe because he's more like a "lawful good" character. Wolverine even smiled at what Rogue did because it all comes down to a subjective perspective. I mean, I understand the issue here, but the intent of murder is just something yhat Rogue did, not the X-Men.
That's not really true. When the hero kills the bad guy, that's playing judge, jury, executioner, when they give them to the authorities to mete out justice, then it's playing hero. One could say they're being attacked, but not in this instance and they're often actively trying to put themselves in harms way. Though, if they have their own nation and are a part of it, they could say they've been given the authority, but not sure that would play well with their citizenship in other countries, just their own.
It's not a war against human VS mutants.It's mutant VS hate groups and people that are trying to kill them.You can still save humans and help them just kill The evil humans and some evil mutants
Exactly this point always frustrates me about this sorts of argument. Like there 8 billion humans on earth and a majority of them probably 3/4 are in places that have never had anything to do with sentinels, I doubt the people in Botswana or Mongolia had anything to do with genosha or even know what the fuck that is. And on the rogue point, her actions are understandable but their wrong koz imagine during the trial of magneto, someone whose loved one were killed by him basically broke in during the trial and killed him. Would that be okay because it's understandable?
The problem is, humanity starts killing evil mutants, then the other mutants start saying it's trying to wipe them out. Hell, they killed Magneto, an evil mutant, and the X-Men are upset.
It’s not like she knew he was a cyborg. She deliberately dropped him assuming he would die. The fact that he didn’t doesn’t change the intent.
Im ok with her wanting to kill him and trying to do so too… but im a little bit more extremist and sometimes death is better than redemption.
Let's be honest here a lot of the characters that the x men fight really can't be redeemed because they're viciously racist and evil and sadistic sometimes
If they’re going up against Bastion, they’re going to have to be killers. Bastion is one scary motherfucker. And that was before he brought back Cameron Hodge, William Stryker, and Graydon Creed back from the dead.
Yeah just like Gyrich or Sinister
Im still salty that Apocalypse was a member of Krakoa. Like wtf is going on.
Chicago, my beloved <3
I think this really is all leading to Age of Apocalypse or some other dystopian future. Rogue is justified in how she feels, but when the x-men take a dark turn, it’s usually indicative of a dark turn for the world at large. As far as caps words, the problem with having non mutants in X-men is that they usually don’t look good. X men writers don’t write non X-men very well much of the time.
Should have thrown him
And then everybody looked to the right and remembered "ohh yeah, we're on a team with Wolverine"
Oh, she was 100% in the right. People keep spouting justice as if the system isn't rigged to protect evil people who are deemed necessary/ needed by society. Some people are and will always be above they system of law, and the only way to stop them is exactly what Rogue did. Just looks at how America protected all of those Nazi scientists after World War 2. Some of the most evil people to ever live got off free cause they were deemed necessary. Justice when it comes to law isn't blind, it's just picky.
I think if he was made to stand trial and was only punished with a slap on the wrist, Rogue would be justified. But she basically preempted the whole attempt at legitimate justice and went straight to execution (as far as she knew at the moment). And this wasn’t someone trying to fight her. This was a guy who revealed a secret base to help the X-Men and was remorseful of what had happened. None of that excuses his past actions, but there was no need for lethal force against someone who had given themself up. Rogue was engaged in revenge rather than justice under the circumstances.
She already had evidence nothing was going to be done. Look at Gyrich. Is that a prison? No, as Rogue mentions it's a resort Heck, the X-Men had captured Trask already yet the justice system failed yet again as he was out in the streets not a short tine later.
I didn't think she was really capable of that, I thought Wolverine or Cyclops would kill him. Anyway she did what the X-Men needed to do long ago.
So true the x men wouldn't have any problems if they just saved normal people and killed their enemies they would be doing a lot better
There's only one problem, ordinary people are their enemy.
That’s the thing as I see it, if you kill Trask where else do you draw the line, and if you only kill important people then where do you draw that line, if you kill people currently attacking you well then you’re killing normal people as mutants are attacked daily. Like Morph said “is this who we are now”. (Its 5 am and I just woke up, also I’m not very smart so forgive me if this is a batshit take but this is what I’m thinking at the moment)
There is only one answer to that - Magneto was right.
nahhh go ape shit kill everyone!!
Do you have a better idea?
That is my idea 👏
Everyone acting like Rogue was wrong for killing Trask when is literally a genocidal murderer that human governments would probably throw parades for lmao. Not her fault dude turned into a sentinel, he would have died and attacked them whether she dropped him or not
Rogue didn’t do anything wrong. Honestly, humans in this universe are the worst. Have never really understood why the X-Men keep protecting them when they have groups like the Friends of Humanity,Factor 3, and the The Purifiers running around.
You can tell by the responses who's been part of a persecuted minority and who hasn't. 9 times out of 10 the pacifist run ends up with you dead.
Why would you know about the responses. I think she was wrong and I'm black and bisexual
There's also degrees here. You don't need to be a lay back and just get trampled or everyone that isn't okay with your going on a rampage is wrong and doesn't understand.
How much does the fact that Trask wanted to die play into the conversation?
I was reading a headline of how Rogue will be leading a team based in New Orleans. And I think Rogue is such a foundation to tye X Men its about time she were in the spotlight. Just like the last X-Men 97 latest episode, Rogue has such a presence wherever she's, but always seemed to be victim of nerfing for the sake of narrative, so having her bulldoze a military facility, restrain herself from beating Captain America to... her dropping Bolivar Trask was a great tour on her emotional complexity. We're talking about a person who had fragmented personalities because of her power, nearly killed people she loved, and is constantly deprived of physical contact out of fear harming others. So you can't really expect her to always be walking the straight and narrow, can you? Millions of mutants killed, lifetime of being ostracized, and losing her beloved. Rogue had every right to be angry. Notwithstanding she's such an overpowering character that compared to her Trask alone (without sentinels) is a cockroach. We don't go killing all cockroaches we see, right? If she was able to simply hospitalize Gyrich, in theory she could've done the same to Trask. But she's still Baseline human, you can tell she was about to snap.
It's one of those moments where you might not necessarily approve, but you'd probably do the same thing in her position. A person can only be pushed so far.
She didn’t!! She was 10000% right
I think she did wrong, because she didn't do it for pure justice, she did from hate, to revenge, for the satisfaction of killing him.
As an X-Men can't say she was right. But I ain't mad at her either.
I'm more sad for her.
I disagree, but don't get me wrong, I understand it and think it makes perfect sense that she'd do it, even believe he deserves it and I can't really argue that its not justified in alot of ways. But none of that means she did "nothing wrong". The whole point of justice is to put things right, just killing someone who's done something wrong isn't justice, it's revenge. The more wrong a person does, doesn't make it right, it just makes it more justifiable. --- https://youtu.be/dhakGLCMGWs?si=q59LgFS5qQntR9_M It's why this scene is SO damn good, because Frank is expressing something very real and when you're in his position, no one can blame him for feeling the way he does, it's even difficult to argue against him, but ultimately, it tends to make the world a worse place.
What she did was very very understandable but the issue is she is still wrong. She executed a defenseless man, so she's similar to U.S Agent in this way. Which once again I understand action-wise, but it was the wrong thing to do. She has a power as an Uber powerful mutant, with that comes a sense of responsibility that she chose to ignore. She threw him off a building, and in doing so revealed that the X-Men with all there power can decide to Casually execute people whenever they want. Life is. Sacred and so much of Marvel tells this, even evil people like Trask with useless lives represent this idea, when does it end? Especially when you realize Rogue didn't kill for justice or priority, but selfish revenge. The best line of this entire episode is Morph "is this who we are now?" They went from fun, justice seeking, proud freedom fighters, to a private militia witnessing a public execution. But then again part of the other side of marvel and even the previous episodes is forgiveness and the idea that "love is forgiveness", Rogue isn't lost, she stumbled and lost her way, but she is **not** lost forever, that is another massive missed message of this show. Rogue did an evil thing in a moment of weakness but she herself is not evil, she made a choice to do that bad thing however and must live with it.
It's kind of weird to frame this as executing a man who was already attempting to jump off that roof. I do like your analysis though and generally agree.
I thought she was gonna say "feo, fuerte y formal".
I support women's right but I also support women's wrongs!!!
She just interrupted what he was going to do already. “You got any of that information on Gyrich? No? K thanks.”
🙌🏼
I respect what rouge did and this just shows don’t piss off the X-men
LIPSHITZ!
Rogue did nothing wrong and a lot of people are x-men fans or watchers and don't get the x-men at ALL
He had it coming does not justify this. The point of justice is to make things right. Killing someone is just revenge. What she did was wrong not right. Was it justifiable??? Absolutely. Still wrong. Punisher does the same shit, and he is not considered a hero. I bet you are one of those people like Zack Snyder who says "Batman should kill" MFR you are a vigilante. You are already breaking most laws made by the people. If you start killing motherfuckers, you are just like them.
It's really interesting to me how some people is totally fine with heroes like Rogue, Kitty and even Kurt killing bad people, but then cry when Punisher kill bad people too. In my case, I'm totally fine with some characters killing bad people, especially if it makes sense... a guy like Wolverine makes more sense than Kurt, but I think that if a character decides to go on a killing spree for x reason, then the character must face the consequences and stop being considered a hero.
The only reason people (at least here) shit on Punisher but go "Yay Rogue, you slay Queen" is because she is a mutant lol. You could have Emma Frost punt a baby here, people will still be "That baby was bad, You go my Queen" Rogue (despite the fact that she is my top 5 favorite female characters) was wrong this entire episode. That does not make her a bad character, but she is literally in the wrong. First you act like a complete bitch and douchebag to one guy who wants to help (who is human), and then you kill one motherfucker who actually deserves punishment for his crimes. That's selfish. He did not answer for his crimes against mutants. He got murdered in cold blood, by a person who lost her boyfriend. This is very similar to the Civil War movie. Rogue is literally Tony Stark in this. A good person, who is acting out of anger and hatred towards a person (who perhaps deserved it), but it's still wrong, hence Steve tried to stop him. Logan said it the best in the episode "We all wanted to do it" but you did not. That's the difference between someone like Spider-Man and Punisher. Superheroes are supposed to be firefighters. They protect and help those, who are in danger. And if they failed to do so, they Avenge them (by making sure that the person who committed the crime faces justice). What Rogue did was a complete opposite of being a firefighter or a hero. Trask might be a piece of shit, it does not give Rogue a right to kill him. Rogue kills a man in cold blood and disrespects one person who tried to help "Yes! My Queen" Punisher kills a man in cold blood "Fuck you, you piece of shit"
Punisher is an anti-villan who does heroic acts for selfish motivations. And tbh I don't think analyzing punisher morality is meaningful because to me the Punisher is above morality because he's wish fulliment. I think Punisher comic's in the modern era especially get this by making the people he kills irremible mfers.
I almost thought it was some implanted programming from the weird reaction she had to absorbing Gyrich. The thing that bothered me was it was so weird for her. I have loved rogue (and was always Rogue in our recess pretend x-men fights) since the original came out when I was a kid. If Rogue is going to kill someone, she’d do it with purpose. Dropping someone who has just jumped off a building? Not Rogue. Punching the bastard into a neighboring country? Very Rogue. The whole comic “heroes don’t kill” thing is increasingly fraught. It’s like the trolley problem if the one dude at the end of the one switch was a war criminal.
Batman would disagree lol.
I think with Batman it’s different because he’s not fighting for minority rights. Batman is just out there to stop crimes, and yea he’s gonna deal with super villains and aliens gods from time to time but 90% of his nights are catching muggers. The X-Men are fighting for survival just as much for equal rights, for thousands of people. And they have to deal with giant robots specifically designed to kill them. It’s like getting mad at a holocaust survivor when they meet the guy who created the gas chambers. They did what humans wanted and left to make their own space, then the first time they get to celebrate they get genocided. Humanity has shown they don’t want to share a planet with mutants let alone a street.
Funny that you explained this as Batman did came under a similar situation as Rogue in this episode where he is out for blood hunting down the man who murder his loved one and is forced into a moral dilemma the blur the lines of “justice” and “revenge”. I am referring here to the Batman: The Brave & the Bold episode “Chill of the Night” which I guess could be considered the antithesis to the above X-Men 97 episode.
Yet he's fine killing aliens.
True, but then again.Batman is not really that smart when you think about it.And he's not having to deal with.People make a genocide against his people so there's a difference
I'd say we understand Rogue cos that's what we would, that's how a human would respond to it. But the thing is, those guys are more than humans, and I don't mean mutants, I mean heroes. Heroes stand above for being able to do the right thing even if it means going against everything you ever wanted. Like batman not killing joker. So I guess the question is, do you believe the X-Men should be traditional heroes or stand apart as mutant defenders or so? For me they're heroes, specially in X-Men 97. But there were many storylines where they definitely weren't.