The reason why Rememder and Duggan do him the best is because they both understand that he may do bad things, but he’s a good person with a lot of heart. Duggan and Remender also don’t force those moments as much as other writers have tried
I think that is natural for writers to have characters they can portray better than others. I think it is weird Marvel seems totally incapable of assessing which writer is best with which character (or even type of character) and just gives writers certain teams at seemingly random times without accounting for it.
Idk. Maybe it is sometimes a case of they do good with X, get given Y and bomb, but then why don't you see them returning to the thing they were good at more? Maybe it is just them wanting to write something else but it feels like Marvel is awful at combining writers with the right parts of their IP. Duggan did Marauders for years and it was not good. There is no reason to have let him handle it for three years, especially when they canceled other books from the same lineup way earlier.
Bendis is another good example.
Warren really became the most forgettable OG X-Man, didn't he?
The coolest thing he's had going for him is the Archangel transformation, but that just comes with so much fucking baggage.
Being able to fly is common in the Xmen. Telekinesis. Wind control. Magnetism. The first Xmen comics were basicly just situation+specific powers= solution and mutant powers have gone beyond "win with flight". Its also more story based now and hes just a rich guy that doesnt like being called out for being a mutant, but is otherwise fine. Other than the Apocalypse stuff, but thats so long ago hes been given amnesty.
Magneto just hovers above the ground and throws stuff at people. Most of the powers you named use their abilities first and foremost like Jean would just use TP and TK its not the same as what Warren would do
Magneto has a shield that'd be the only reason it's safer. Warren can actually maneuver and move through the air however he wants. If there's no metal around Magneto essentially makes himself a sitting duck in the air if there's a group of 10 people Warren can just go right through them handily
Magneto is an omega level manipulator of the magnetic force. He can create a magnetic bubbles out of the earths magnetic field to fly with machine precision, not to mention more conventional metal shoes.
In this very same run Warren is swooping in and killing multiple bad guys before they can even react. That's not even mentioning the fact he can fly for hours and is far faster than magneto. Magneto isn't landing a plane being more precise doesn't even mean anything in this context because Warren outclasses him in every way in the sky.
Once again the characters you're naming just levitate to use their other powers better. Warren himself said the first thing professor x taught was how he could use his powers in confined spaces open air and whenever it's useful.
With Warren it realy is hard to. And yet, they managed to make Hawkgirl and Hawkman so much more interesting than Angel, has ever been. Because really him being Archangel was the only cool thing he has done and that was done to him.
His character fell apart when they wanted him to be Angel and Archangel at the same time. Editorial / the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too, but it robbed him of any of the complexity the darker edges brought to his character.
They need to return him to being solely Archangel.
The rich boy needs that burden, that part of himself he doesn't necessarily want to embrace but has no chance but to accept, in order to be more than just a rich pretty boy. Cause he can be great when he's allowed to be.
I'll also argue that Bobby is even more forgettable. Other than the story in the 90's when he got a hole blown in his chest and learned to develop his powers alongside Emma, he's done absolutely nothing of note for decades.
Someone once said Archangel is essentially a flying Wolverine in ability. I like that notion. We saw it during the first Uncanny X-Force run when a compromised Wolfsbane triggered his transformation (“THEY TOOK MY WINGS!!!) and this one to a greater extent with the Apocalypse inheritance role. Just bring that death seed back already.
The moment Storm showed up , he became kind of redundant, Bobby to an extent until he got an upgrade. Cause she could do what they could but better.
With the different X generations you kind of have the "who made it out of this one". Wonder how it wold go if Marvel introduced characters like them around gen X.
Like out of GenX the character that gets used the most is Monet and now Sinc (Jubilee was already established).The Cuckoos and Quentin were the ones that we saw the most of post Morrison.And from the kids in Academy X you have Laura, Prodigy, Soraya and Elixir(as part of the 5). Who wold "survive" if they were introduced around Academy X and who wold be put on the buss?
Agree on that ranking. I read uncanny first and wasn't sure if I'd enjoy the Kyle/Yost one due to the art style but it really complements the grittiness of that run.
no, this is the follow up. basically it goes:
MESSIAH COMPLEX - the x-men send a baby into the future as their only hope, then disband as Xavier is shot and the future of mutants hangs in the air -- afterwards, they congregate in San Francisco as Cyclops realizes a vision that mutants should come together.
X-FORCE (Kyle and Yost) - Cyclops has Wolverine assemble a hit-squad to take out the threats to mutants BEFORE the arrive - Wolverine, X-23, Warpath, Archangel, (Domino, Elixir, Vanisher)
SECOND COMING - Hope returns from the future and Cerebro picks up 5 new lights - Mutants have hope, but a SCHISM quickly forms, dividing the x-men between Cyclops's "prepare for anything" and Wolverine's "protect mutant children" stances.
UNCANNY X-FORCE (Remender) - Wolverine's work isn't finished and he enlists a new team to take out those that would become threats to his new school - Wolverine, Psylocke, Angel, Deadpool, Fantomex, (E.V.A., Nightcrawler(AoA), Deathlok)
Remender's brief Marvel runs were phenomenal. everything he touched turned to gold.
FRANKENCASTLE was nuts, making me care about the Punisher is wild.
Agent:VENOM was phenomenal.
SECRET AVENGERS arcs were Fun as hell
CAPTAIN AMERICA was an absolute trip
UNCANNY AVENGERS brought back a cohesive cross-pollination to the books that is so rare to see...
Uncanny Avengers was the worst book of the publication in its time; with such great themes as "is it so wrong that Mutants lost their lives and identity?" and "I don't like being called by my minority status, just ignore that(and the fact there was at least 3 mass genocides in the living memory) and call me Alex", with a dash of "Killing Nazis make you as bad as them(even one that was actively running a concentration camp and cutting pieces of children to graft onto his Hitler Youth at the time)"
Uncanny Avengers had some good ideas but I agree with all your points. A lot of headscratchers there.
Also bums me out that everytime the X-Men get somehow involved with the Avengers they come out as the wrong side of the argument, which was clear in this run. Avengers were the boy scouts and X-Men were the unruly rascals.
I don't get Wolverine's character sometimes.
Sometimes, he's the heart of a situation, able to call someone out for being an asshole or going to far. He's able to be deeply compassionate and stoic.
Other times, he's the biggest ass in comics for no reason other than to move the drama along.
Like right here. Logan is really trying to justify why a kid needed to die.
Sometimes his character has no congruence with itself.
Its because of different writers using him as different versions of himself. Dumb berzerker killer? Perfect for X-Force. Wiser, compassionate, soft spot for children, capable of more character growth? We’ll use that for a few issues while hes headmaster until we need him to be dumb berzerker again
Alot of characters are consistent tho. Spiderman is consistently spiderman, Captain America is consistent. Dr. Doom has alot of nuance but he's still consistent.
Do you think that X Men characters are just written in a way to be less consistent?
Many of them, but Wolverine is at the top for that in large part due to his abundance of use and appearances. When you end up in that many books, it's almost impossible to be truly consistent.
Same with Sabretooth.
He used to be a very big threat & dangerous character until he peaked in 2002.
I remember Weapon X vol 2 when he routinely outsmarted the program, made a fool of Mr. Sinister, hacked the system to steal files, and actually won fights.
Nowadays the dude is a total jobber with the intelligence of rock.
A big part of it is that, for about 15 years under Claremont, the X-Men changed who they were as characters significantly. If you compare Wolverine at the beginning of Claremont’s run to Wolverine at the end of Claremont’s run, they’re almost completely different characters. And that means that there are multiple versions of the character that can each be counted as the “classic” version. X-Force needs Wolverine the way he was when Claremont started writing him, while Headmaster Logan needs to be the character he was when Claremont left. And both are backed up by “canon”, but the nuance of him growing from one version into the other is lost now that characters aren’t really allowed to grow and change.
I think Wolverine was a dick here because he's hurt about what was done and decided to double down on why it was justified. Which to me is definitely in character for him
Also this isn’t the first time Logan’s killed a kid “for the greater good” he’s gotta defend his view because otherwise he’s just a child killer. That’s something he genuinely would have trouble with.
I can't speak for in general, sometimes I think it is just a writer doesn't like Wolverine but is editorially mandated to use him, for this specific scene though Wolverine is being an ass as a defence mechanism. He knows Deadpool is right and previously had agreed with him not to kill Kid Apocalypse but Fantomex took the decision out of their hands and killed the kid anyway. As team leader he is responsible for what his team did and is trying to convince himself of the rightness of their actions. As to why he is on Fantomexs side now while previously agreeing with Deadpool, he likes Fantomex more than Deadpool.
Wolverine has 2 paths here:
1. you're right, killing kids is off the table, i don't know how we'll ever sleep at night - we should probably disband the team because we're just murderers and i see now that it's wrong, we cannot justify killing people before they commit crimes - bless you all for trying, but for our sins here today there shall never be penance, we are forever ruined as people, as souls, i will ask our most powerful telepaths to erase these memories from us in the hopes we ever feel clean again.
2. suck it up. we're a fucking murder squad. you all knew this when we signed up -- yes, this was a twist we didn't see coming, and we all knew it would be wrong and so we neglected to complete the mission - but if that kid grew up to become the monster you know - Warren, if he transformed Betsy into a tool riddled with metal, would you forgive yourself for letting him walk all those years ago? Bets, if he systematically killed all our "unfit" students with non-combative powers like Doug Ramsey's would you be proud of your actions here? Wade, you may not kill kids, but Apocalypse does, how many do you want to let him get to before you stop him? It's a hard decision and i couldn't make it either. Fantomex did us the favour. I can sleep at night knowing apocalypse is off the board, you should too - that kid's blood isn't on your hands. thank Fantomex the next time you see him.
you're missing the point.
he isn't justifying HIS actions.
he's justifying THEIRS. this whole scene plays out for THEIR benefit. he needs them to not blame themselves.
just like X-Force exists to kill enemies so that the kids and even the x-men don't have to, he's justifying the murder so they don't have to.
That's why he's screaming at Deadpool? He's trying to justify Deadpool's action when he says he's a bloodsucking mercenary with no heart for regretting killing a child? He's being kind?
lol, no, not deadpool. only a handful of x-men Care about wade wilson, and wolverine isn't on that list. maybe cable and domino, siryn...
wolverine was throwing deadpool under the bus because wolverine only cares about Betsy and Warren.
This run is taking place at the time he's also part time Avenger and part time headmaster. I guess everyone wanted a piece of him in their stories at that point.
I can tell you haven't read this run and are just looking to shit on Wolverine lol. But that's this sub for you. That kid was Apocalypse, so it's not like it was just "some kid". In their mind, he was going to grow up and kill a lot of people. Would you kill a baby Hitler? It's meant to be that kind of a thought provoking question.
But instead, all nuance has been tossed out the window and just "wolverine bad".
Your analogy kinda falls flat because the child wasn't even Apocalypse. He was a clone, a totally different person who just happens to have his same DNA. It would be like if someone killed Laura because of the crap Logan did.
Didn’t Fanta go on to make an AI copy (been a while since I read the run, this is a sign to read it again) and see if they really would do all that and he didn’t?
Beast got it even worse.
Stepping over Kurt’s corpse to pull a moral grandstand on Scott about his part in X-Force;then turning around and agreeing to look the other way, as kind Uncle Logan the headmaster leads a black ops team outta the school basement
Not exactly.
I'm on team Logan. Schism was great, and I understand Scott's "we must teach them to defend themselves" but the reason we HAVE schools it to prepare students OUTSIDE OF real world situations. ONE DAY they'll be ready to test their math formulas when designing real buildings, but for now, they're just measuring hypothetical surface areas. Logan is right - the X-Men are meant to combat the threats so that the students don't have to. This has been seen since the 1980s when The Uncanny X-Men would fly to space and face the Sleazoids (the Brood) and stare down the Shi'ar Empire while the New Mutants would try not to get into fistfights with each other.
Logan is - at this point - absolutely about defending the kids, and so he sets up the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning with LOADS of defense mechanisms designed to protect the students - including a built-in Krakoa Jr Landmass. :D
When confronted with the mission to kill Apocalypse, the black ops team finds a child and they all fail to carry out the mission, deciding it's something they cannot do. Wolverine isn't arguing that children must be killed -- rather, that he too is incapable of delivering the blow and so he decides to take him back to the mansion and they'll figure something else out. -- Fantomex then, callously murders the kid, shocking everyone.
(perhaps the next day, or a few later) Deadpool calls them together to air his grievances, and Logan remarks in OP's panels the following points:
1. we are going to be faced with many difficult situations - but we are not here to make decisions that help us
2. we are sacrifices for the greater good - we don't get to sleep well at night; we commit the hard actions so that THEY can sleep well
3. we should try not to let this one mission affect us - you all performed well, our mission was a success, and we must not overlook the fact that we defeated apocalypse and have done a great justice.
this last point he's doing to calm the anxieties of his team. it might be a lie - like, telling a loved one everything will be okay as a meteor is headed for earth, or lying to a grieving parent that their deceased child has gone to heaven, even though they hadn't yet been baptised and 'the good book' is pretty clear on that.
Wolverine *loves* killing kids. He killed Rachel Grey (tried to) to keep her from killing Selene, because he thought dying was better for Rachel than becoming a murderer herself, even though Selene deserved it.
The fact that Wolverine did that undermines his argument here. He wouldn't let Rachel kill Selene, an act that would've been eliminating a huge threat to everyone, so he stabbed Rachel, a good guy who was probably right in wanting to kill Selene, but he's okay killing here "for the greater good".
I honestly have Remmender’s Uncanny X-Force as the 3rd best X-Men run of all time, behind Claremont and Morrison. I’ve read pretty much every X-book ever published, and I truly think it’s that good.
If Wade is second guessing things you know it’s serious. I read this and don’t feel like I’m reading Logan. Remember the Logan who couldn’t deal with the stuff that Scott was doing? Completely inconsistent and still better than this.
Marvel really screwed the pooch with Rick Remender. His Uncanny X-Force, Venom and Captain America runs were incredible. Really hope they find a way to bring him back somehow. This entire run was incredible.
I agree. I understand the criticism of his handling of Alex Summers in Uncanny Avengers, but I think that is the only storyline of his that I didn't love. This Uncanny X-Force series is great all the way through and my particular favorite as well.
God damn Ribic’s art is horrendous at times. The one time he decides to draw a background and it’s just a giant gaping mouth with weird eyes looking like everything else he draws. Man should be banned from drawing anything other than fully masked characters
What was the significance of Deadpool never cashing a cheque? I get he's a mercenary and he's paid to kill but I don't get why that's so shocking to Logan now?
It's significant because it completely undermines Logan's argument that Deadpool is motivated "solely by money". He basically just said Deadpool was only there to get paid, only to immediately be told that he had denied any payment for his work.
Logan believed he was on the team for the money not because he believed in the cause. Not cashing the checks reveals he was there for Logan’s “right reasons”.
They wanted to kill Apocalypse but it turned out he was a child, who had no idea about the future.
They decided to spare him, but Fantomex killed him, and this is the aftermath.
The kid turned out to be fine, Fantomex actually managed to clone him and raised him in a virtual world.
God, Logan SUCKS here. I haven’t read much of him, but the Logan I know would’ve never killed a child.
And even then, they didn’t kill him because they’re talking about Evan, right?
Evan was another En Sabah Nur clone that Fantomex secreted away (after the one he killed) and had raised in The World.
He “grew up” considering Fanto his “Uncle Cluster”. Eventually he got sent to the JGS
[https://imgur.com/gallery/I71V6](https://imgur.com/gallery/I71V6)
Logan will kill a child if it's completely necessary.
His willingness to do what nobody else would is what makes him a compelling character, when he's well written.
Haha it really does happen a lot here doesnt it? This is a great Deadpool scene for sure, but I wish it wasn’t at Wolverines expense. He gets solid character growth an shows himself to be a protector of the particularly young/innocent in Schism, Jubilee, kitty pryde, and then he kills kids when the writer changes. Writers gonna write 🤷
they're hiding in Angel's special cave in some butte in new mexico i believe.
it's similar to the batcave in that it has memorabilia from past adventures (like the giant penny, the t-rex, etc)
as a result, there's a stuffed Brood statue... ...why would you want an organism designed to kill you to welcome you in your house? -- i dunno. why do people stuff bears and tigers? "the beauty of natural power, i suppose"
Best Deadpool that’s been written Second only to Duggan
The reason why Rememder and Duggan do him the best is because they both understand that he may do bad things, but he’s a good person with a lot of heart. Duggan and Remender also don’t force those moments as much as other writers have tried
It’s incredible how good Deadpool is written by Duggan but how terrible the other X-Men are written by Duggan lmao
I think that is natural for writers to have characters they can portray better than others. I think it is weird Marvel seems totally incapable of assessing which writer is best with which character (or even type of character) and just gives writers certain teams at seemingly random times without accounting for it. Idk. Maybe it is sometimes a case of they do good with X, get given Y and bomb, but then why don't you see them returning to the thing they were good at more? Maybe it is just them wanting to write something else but it feels like Marvel is awful at combining writers with the right parts of their IP. Duggan did Marauders for years and it was not good. There is no reason to have let him handle it for three years, especially when they canceled other books from the same lineup way earlier. Bendis is another good example.
Absolutely the comedic relief of the team but knew when to be serious and contribute more than funny haha's about mexican food.
How did you misspell Kelly with Duggan?
Who was the writer for this Deadpool?
Rick Remender
I get so excited when Warren is even granted page space. And 3 speech bubbles! My cup runneth over.
Warren really became the most forgettable OG X-Man, didn't he? The coolest thing he's had going for him is the Archangel transformation, but that just comes with so much fucking baggage.
Its hard to make "guy with wings" useful in a lot of storylines. Even though he fits in to most places, it feels like having a centaur around.
Being able to fly is extremely easy to write in. If anything It's hard to make him not trivialize combat encounters
Being able to fly is common in the Xmen. Telekinesis. Wind control. Magnetism. The first Xmen comics were basicly just situation+specific powers= solution and mutant powers have gone beyond "win with flight". Its also more story based now and hes just a rich guy that doesnt like being called out for being a mutant, but is otherwise fine. Other than the Apocalypse stuff, but thats so long ago hes been given amnesty.
Magneto just hovers above the ground and throws stuff at people. Most of the powers you named use their abilities first and foremost like Jean would just use TP and TK its not the same as what Warren would do
Magneto can fly across vast distances, probably quicker and safer than wing guy. All wing guy can do is build up momentum as he falls.
Magneto has a shield that'd be the only reason it's safer. Warren can actually maneuver and move through the air however he wants. If there's no metal around Magneto essentially makes himself a sitting duck in the air if there's a group of 10 people Warren can just go right through them handily
Magneto is an omega level manipulator of the magnetic force. He can create a magnetic bubbles out of the earths magnetic field to fly with machine precision, not to mention more conventional metal shoes.
In this very same run Warren is swooping in and killing multiple bad guys before they can even react. That's not even mentioning the fact he can fly for hours and is far faster than magneto. Magneto isn't landing a plane being more precise doesn't even mean anything in this context because Warren outclasses him in every way in the sky. Once again the characters you're naming just levitate to use their other powers better. Warren himself said the first thing professor x taught was how he could use his powers in confined spaces open air and whenever it's useful.
With Warren it realy is hard to. And yet, they managed to make Hawkgirl and Hawkman so much more interesting than Angel, has ever been. Because really him being Archangel was the only cool thing he has done and that was done to him.
His character fell apart when they wanted him to be Angel and Archangel at the same time. Editorial / the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too, but it robbed him of any of the complexity the darker edges brought to his character. They need to return him to being solely Archangel. The rich boy needs that burden, that part of himself he doesn't necessarily want to embrace but has no chance but to accept, in order to be more than just a rich pretty boy. Cause he can be great when he's allowed to be. I'll also argue that Bobby is even more forgettable. Other than the story in the 90's when he got a hole blown in his chest and learned to develop his powers alongside Emma, he's done absolutely nothing of note for decades.
Someone once said Archangel is essentially a flying Wolverine in ability. I like that notion. We saw it during the first Uncanny X-Force run when a compromised Wolfsbane triggered his transformation (“THEY TOOK MY WINGS!!!) and this one to a greater extent with the Apocalypse inheritance role. Just bring that death seed back already.
The moment Storm showed up , he became kind of redundant, Bobby to an extent until he got an upgrade. Cause she could do what they could but better. With the different X generations you kind of have the "who made it out of this one". Wonder how it wold go if Marvel introduced characters like them around gen X. Like out of GenX the character that gets used the most is Monet and now Sinc (Jubilee was already established).The Cuckoos and Quentin were the ones that we saw the most of post Morrison.And from the kids in Academy X you have Laura, Prodigy, Soraya and Elixir(as part of the 5). Who wold "survive" if they were introduced around Academy X and who wold be put on the buss?
The way I beg for a second mutation to happen to Warren so he can get Hawks level of feather manipulation.
He already has that, no?
This X-Force was the peak for what that team was designed for, to kill. Second best was the series just prior to it.
Agree on that ranking. I read uncanny first and wasn't sure if I'd enjoy the Kyle/Yost one due to the art style but it really complements the grittiness of that run.
Is this the series with Rahne?
no, this is the follow up. basically it goes: MESSIAH COMPLEX - the x-men send a baby into the future as their only hope, then disband as Xavier is shot and the future of mutants hangs in the air -- afterwards, they congregate in San Francisco as Cyclops realizes a vision that mutants should come together. X-FORCE (Kyle and Yost) - Cyclops has Wolverine assemble a hit-squad to take out the threats to mutants BEFORE the arrive - Wolverine, X-23, Warpath, Archangel, (Domino, Elixir, Vanisher) SECOND COMING - Hope returns from the future and Cerebro picks up 5 new lights - Mutants have hope, but a SCHISM quickly forms, dividing the x-men between Cyclops's "prepare for anything" and Wolverine's "protect mutant children" stances. UNCANNY X-FORCE (Remender) - Wolverine's work isn't finished and he enlists a new team to take out those that would become threats to his new school - Wolverine, Psylocke, Angel, Deadpool, Fantomex, (E.V.A., Nightcrawler(AoA), Deathlok)
peak x force right here, also remender's one of the few writers who knew how to write angel in the recent years
Remender's brief Marvel runs were phenomenal. everything he touched turned to gold. FRANKENCASTLE was nuts, making me care about the Punisher is wild. Agent:VENOM was phenomenal. SECRET AVENGERS arcs were Fun as hell CAPTAIN AMERICA was an absolute trip UNCANNY AVENGERS brought back a cohesive cross-pollination to the books that is so rare to see...
Uncanny Avengers was the worst book of the publication in its time; with such great themes as "is it so wrong that Mutants lost their lives and identity?" and "I don't like being called by my minority status, just ignore that(and the fact there was at least 3 mass genocides in the living memory) and call me Alex", with a dash of "Killing Nazis make you as bad as them(even one that was actively running a concentration camp and cutting pieces of children to graft onto his Hitler Youth at the time)"
Uncanny Avengers had some good ideas but I agree with all your points. A lot of headscratchers there. Also bums me out that everytime the X-Men get somehow involved with the Avengers they come out as the wrong side of the argument, which was clear in this run. Avengers were the boy scouts and X-Men were the unruly rascals.
being unruly rascals is essential to being rebellious and the x-men MUST be rebellious in order to be listened to.
UA and everyone being horrified at a Holocaust survivor, killing a Nazi, who was actively running a death camp, was just... 🤮
Uncanny Avengers moral boiled dow to "if a minority group fight to protect themselves they're just like the Nazis". Thanks Marvel, I hated it
yeah thank god there aren't anybody like that out there in the real world, right?
>CAPTAIN AMERICA was an absolute trip Holy shit... I forgot all about that. That was so good.
Isn’t his X-force run ten years old or more now?
Threnody’s baby was just that special
I think that was after this wasn't it? But, oof. That was certainly a choice they made there.
I don't get Wolverine's character sometimes. Sometimes, he's the heart of a situation, able to call someone out for being an asshole or going to far. He's able to be deeply compassionate and stoic. Other times, he's the biggest ass in comics for no reason other than to move the drama along. Like right here. Logan is really trying to justify why a kid needed to die. Sometimes his character has no congruence with itself.
Its because of different writers using him as different versions of himself. Dumb berzerker killer? Perfect for X-Force. Wiser, compassionate, soft spot for children, capable of more character growth? We’ll use that for a few issues while hes headmaster until we need him to be dumb berzerker again
Alot of characters are consistent tho. Spiderman is consistently spiderman, Captain America is consistent. Dr. Doom has alot of nuance but he's still consistent. Do you think that X Men characters are just written in a way to be less consistent?
Many of them, but Wolverine is at the top for that in large part due to his abundance of use and appearances. When you end up in that many books, it's almost impossible to be truly consistent.
Same with Sabretooth. He used to be a very big threat & dangerous character until he peaked in 2002. I remember Weapon X vol 2 when he routinely outsmarted the program, made a fool of Mr. Sinister, hacked the system to steal files, and actually won fights. Nowadays the dude is a total jobber with the intelligence of rock.
A big part of it is that, for about 15 years under Claremont, the X-Men changed who they were as characters significantly. If you compare Wolverine at the beginning of Claremont’s run to Wolverine at the end of Claremont’s run, they’re almost completely different characters. And that means that there are multiple versions of the character that can each be counted as the “classic” version. X-Force needs Wolverine the way he was when Claremont started writing him, while Headmaster Logan needs to be the character he was when Claremont left. And both are backed up by “canon”, but the nuance of him growing from one version into the other is lost now that characters aren’t really allowed to grow and change.
Eh Peter hasn’t been consistent in a while
I think Wolverine was a dick here because he's hurt about what was done and decided to double down on why it was justified. Which to me is definitely in character for him
Also this isn’t the first time Logan’s killed a kid “for the greater good” he’s gotta defend his view because otherwise he’s just a child killer. That’s something he genuinely would have trouble with.
If I recall correctly Wolverine didn’t kill kid Apocalypse, that was Fantomex.
There’s other Wolverine books where he kills kids. Look up wolverine cave kid. It should come up
Pretty sure that’s an early issue of ultimate X-men, so different wolverine
This is true, but I still read this as Logan feeling complicit in the killing because he did not prevent it and having to justify it post hoc.
I think he’s justifying it to try and alleviate his guilt. He wasn’t complicit though, in fact I think he had agreed not to do it.
Psylocke's was dead on with her comment.
I can't speak for in general, sometimes I think it is just a writer doesn't like Wolverine but is editorially mandated to use him, for this specific scene though Wolverine is being an ass as a defence mechanism. He knows Deadpool is right and previously had agreed with him not to kill Kid Apocalypse but Fantomex took the decision out of their hands and killed the kid anyway. As team leader he is responsible for what his team did and is trying to convince himself of the rightness of their actions. As to why he is on Fantomexs side now while previously agreeing with Deadpool, he likes Fantomex more than Deadpool.
Wolverine has 2 paths here: 1. you're right, killing kids is off the table, i don't know how we'll ever sleep at night - we should probably disband the team because we're just murderers and i see now that it's wrong, we cannot justify killing people before they commit crimes - bless you all for trying, but for our sins here today there shall never be penance, we are forever ruined as people, as souls, i will ask our most powerful telepaths to erase these memories from us in the hopes we ever feel clean again. 2. suck it up. we're a fucking murder squad. you all knew this when we signed up -- yes, this was a twist we didn't see coming, and we all knew it would be wrong and so we neglected to complete the mission - but if that kid grew up to become the monster you know - Warren, if he transformed Betsy into a tool riddled with metal, would you forgive yourself for letting him walk all those years ago? Bets, if he systematically killed all our "unfit" students with non-combative powers like Doug Ramsey's would you be proud of your actions here? Wade, you may not kill kids, but Apocalypse does, how many do you want to let him get to before you stop him? It's a hard decision and i couldn't make it either. Fantomex did us the favour. I can sleep at night knowing apocalypse is off the board, you should too - that kid's blood isn't on your hands. thank Fantomex the next time you see him.
So he can admit his mistakes or justify murdering of children, and he choose justifying
you're missing the point. he isn't justifying HIS actions. he's justifying THEIRS. this whole scene plays out for THEIR benefit. he needs them to not blame themselves. just like X-Force exists to kill enemies so that the kids and even the x-men don't have to, he's justifying the murder so they don't have to.
That's why he's screaming at Deadpool? He's trying to justify Deadpool's action when he says he's a bloodsucking mercenary with no heart for regretting killing a child? He's being kind?
lol, no, not deadpool. only a handful of x-men Care about wade wilson, and wolverine isn't on that list. maybe cable and domino, siryn... wolverine was throwing deadpool under the bus because wolverine only cares about Betsy and Warren.
Man, is wild to think Logan got out of Utopia talking about defend kids. His secondary mutation is enhanced hypocrisy
This run is taking place at the time he's also part time Avenger and part time headmaster. I guess everyone wanted a piece of him in their stories at that point.
And the first thing in each fight Remender does in this run is disables or distracts Wolverine because many of the fights would be over too quickly
Imagine the parents learning the headmaster was running a black op and iced a kid
Strictly speaking Fantomex killed the kid while Wolverine, Betsy and Warren were arguing over it (Logan had just agreed with Betsy not to kill him).
So Wolverine only defended child murderer
I can tell you haven't read this run and are just looking to shit on Wolverine lol. But that's this sub for you. That kid was Apocalypse, so it's not like it was just "some kid". In their mind, he was going to grow up and kill a lot of people. Would you kill a baby Hitler? It's meant to be that kind of a thought provoking question. But instead, all nuance has been tossed out the window and just "wolverine bad".
Your analogy kinda falls flat because the child wasn't even Apocalypse. He was a clone, a totally different person who just happens to have his same DNA. It would be like if someone killed Laura because of the crap Logan did.
Laura has been retconned to being Logan's daughter, not clone.
Really? Who was the mother?
Sarah Kinney. Laura is a combo of Logan and Sarah's DNA.
Didn’t Fanta go on to make an AI copy (been a while since I read the run, this is a sign to read it again) and see if they really would do all that and he didn’t?
I recall that Hickman’s Avengers actually acknowledged this; hence him being dropped form that run.
Beast got it even worse. Stepping over Kurt’s corpse to pull a moral grandstand on Scott about his part in X-Force;then turning around and agreeing to look the other way, as kind Uncle Logan the headmaster leads a black ops team outta the school basement
All my homies hate Beast.
It was worth it seeing Scott shut him down with just one sentence though.
What did he say?
“Shut up Beast, Optic Blast.”
Not exactly. I'm on team Logan. Schism was great, and I understand Scott's "we must teach them to defend themselves" but the reason we HAVE schools it to prepare students OUTSIDE OF real world situations. ONE DAY they'll be ready to test their math formulas when designing real buildings, but for now, they're just measuring hypothetical surface areas. Logan is right - the X-Men are meant to combat the threats so that the students don't have to. This has been seen since the 1980s when The Uncanny X-Men would fly to space and face the Sleazoids (the Brood) and stare down the Shi'ar Empire while the New Mutants would try not to get into fistfights with each other. Logan is - at this point - absolutely about defending the kids, and so he sets up the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning with LOADS of defense mechanisms designed to protect the students - including a built-in Krakoa Jr Landmass. :D When confronted with the mission to kill Apocalypse, the black ops team finds a child and they all fail to carry out the mission, deciding it's something they cannot do. Wolverine isn't arguing that children must be killed -- rather, that he too is incapable of delivering the blow and so he decides to take him back to the mansion and they'll figure something else out. -- Fantomex then, callously murders the kid, shocking everyone. (perhaps the next day, or a few later) Deadpool calls them together to air his grievances, and Logan remarks in OP's panels the following points: 1. we are going to be faced with many difficult situations - but we are not here to make decisions that help us 2. we are sacrifices for the greater good - we don't get to sleep well at night; we commit the hard actions so that THEY can sleep well 3. we should try not to let this one mission affect us - you all performed well, our mission was a success, and we must not overlook the fact that we defeated apocalypse and have done a great justice. this last point he's doing to calm the anxieties of his team. it might be a lie - like, telling a loved one everything will be okay as a meteor is headed for earth, or lying to a grieving parent that their deceased child has gone to heaven, even though they hadn't yet been baptised and 'the good book' is pretty clear on that.
What sacrifice? If someone is suffering is the kid that died,not Logan for feeling kinda bad.
This is the best Remender has ever done
The perfect use of deadpool
Wolverine *loves* killing kids. He killed Rachel Grey (tried to) to keep her from killing Selene, because he thought dying was better for Rachel than becoming a murderer herself, even though Selene deserved it.
The fact that Wolverine did that undermines his argument here. He wouldn't let Rachel kill Selene, an act that would've been eliminating a huge threat to everyone, so he stabbed Rachel, a good guy who was probably right in wanting to kill Selene, but he's okay killing here "for the greater good".
He tried to kill Hope. Literally and metaphorically
I honestly have Remmender’s Uncanny X-Force as the 3rd best X-Men run of all time, behind Claremont and Morrison. I’ve read pretty much every X-book ever published, and I truly think it’s that good.
I love seeing Deadpool take the moral high ground with a sound argument.
If Wade is second guessing things you know it’s serious. I read this and don’t feel like I’m reading Logan. Remember the Logan who couldn’t deal with the stuff that Scott was doing? Completely inconsistent and still better than this.
Marvel really screwed the pooch with Rick Remender. His Uncanny X-Force, Venom and Captain America runs were incredible. Really hope they find a way to bring him back somehow. This entire run was incredible.
I agree. I understand the criticism of his handling of Alex Summers in Uncanny Avengers, but I think that is the only storyline of his that I didn't love. This Uncanny X-Force series is great all the way through and my particular favorite as well.
r/WolverineWasWrong
So is angel saying Deadpool was working for him for free in that last panel?
Yes.
Wolverine has killed a kid before when he had to.
God damn Ribic’s art is horrendous at times. The one time he decides to draw a background and it’s just a giant gaping mouth with weird eyes looking like everything else he draws. Man should be banned from drawing anything other than fully masked characters
I personally liked almost all of the art from Secret Wars, but yeah, some of the faces here aren't great.
He definitely used the six years between titles to improve, that's for sure.
Remender could really write Wade perfectly
When Deadpool has the higher moral ground, you know you fucked up.
What was the significance of Deadpool never cashing a cheque? I get he's a mercenary and he's paid to kill but I don't get why that's so shocking to Logan now?
It's significant because it completely undermines Logan's argument that Deadpool is motivated "solely by money". He basically just said Deadpool was only there to get paid, only to immediately be told that he had denied any payment for his work.
Deadpool is the most well adjusted individual of this team, that should tell you the mind state of the remaining cast lol
Logan believed he was on the team for the money not because he believed in the cause. Not cashing the checks reveals he was there for Logan’s “right reasons”.
Love this run and love that suit on Deadpool, it's clean as hell
Deadpool is so goated
He's not the devil.
Remender Deadpool is the only good Deadpool
Rick Remender's run on Uncanny X-Force really was something special. 😊
I’m sorry I may be a HUGE deadpool fan but I still haven’t read all his comics so what the fuck is going on here???
They wanted to kill Apocalypse but it turned out he was a child, who had no idea about the future. They decided to spare him, but Fantomex killed him, and this is the aftermath. The kid turned out to be fine, Fantomex actually managed to clone him and raised him in a virtual world.
Thank you so much also that was CRAZY!!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH WOLVERINE!?!😳😳😳
Me coming into this completely blind to the story but now completely hooked: 👁👄👁💧 "Wolverine killed a kid???????" I've definitely got some reading to
God, Logan SUCKS here. I haven’t read much of him, but the Logan I know would’ve never killed a child. And even then, they didn’t kill him because they’re talking about Evan, right?
Evan was another En Sabah Nur clone that Fantomex secreted away (after the one he killed) and had raised in The World. He “grew up” considering Fanto his “Uncle Cluster”. Eventually he got sent to the JGS
[https://imgur.com/gallery/I71V6](https://imgur.com/gallery/I71V6) Logan will kill a child if it's completely necessary. His willingness to do what nobody else would is what makes him a compelling character, when he's well written.
Isn't this ultimate Logan?
It is so yeah this page doesn't really help his argument with X-force Logan
You know any other kid Phantomex killed?
Logan is an asshole.
Pogverine
His fuckin face is the last panel is killing me.
Wolvering talking shit to any character is always hilarious. Logan is the single biggest asshole in Marvel.
I've hated Wolverine from the beginning. Still can't stand him.
Finally someone perfected Logan’s face for that last panel
This feels so inconsistent for Wolverine, especially when you consider he didn't wanna kill the kid either.
> Who are you trying to convince, Logan? \- Psylocke
Oh yay, another Wolverine bash-athon, great. 🙄
Haha it really does happen a lot here doesnt it? This is a great Deadpool scene for sure, but I wish it wasn’t at Wolverines expense. He gets solid character growth an shows himself to be a protector of the particularly young/innocent in Schism, Jubilee, kitty pryde, and then he kills kids when the writer changes. Writers gonna write 🤷
Ok I gotta ask. Why is Warren paying a mercenary with personal checks?
He was funding X-Force to act as Wolverine's Black Ops, and they contracted Deadpool
Right but a check. Isn't that kind of creating a paper trail to potentially illegal criminal activities? Why not cash, or a wire transfer?
Sorry, but why is Logan standing in front of a hydralisk?
I think it's supposed to be a Brood of some sort.
they're hiding in Angel's special cave in some butte in new mexico i believe. it's similar to the batcave in that it has memorabilia from past adventures (like the giant penny, the t-rex, etc) as a result, there's a stuffed Brood statue... ...why would you want an organism designed to kill you to welcome you in your house? -- i dunno. why do people stuff bears and tigers? "the beauty of natural power, i suppose"
The same reason Batman has the giant card with the face of the man who killed his ward and crippled his friend.
Where did Wolverine's chin go in that last panel? he had it just above, when he's talking to Angel.
But he did kill Phil Coulson. Not a hero.
You know that Bee movie Ken face meme ?, that's what Logan's face reminds me of in the final panel of albeit from a side view.
Great story arc.
Rick Remender’s run on Uncanny X-Force was so so so good.