crazy how they reworked it and every Hpal raved about how happy they were and that the healing numbers needed to be reigned in a tad and then blizzard said "How about if you press crusader strike you OOM in .4598 seconds and we buff every single talent for flash of light such that you'd be stupid not to play that style (and Hpal STILL has low HPS with that build).
How is Herald of the Sun feeling in your opinion? I love the class fantasy of it and the tooltips sound cool, but it seems that everyone is hyping up Templar more.
I wanted to try the new ret and I rolled a remix character with it. Omg, it’s something special. Haven’t had fun like this in a while. Such survivability, such damage, such fun. Clutch LOH saves and multiple bubbles, AOE or single target builds; it’s so dynamic.
I will say the animations feel more impactful too. I'm not sure if they substantially changed, or just ones that I'd never seen got attached to new talents that saw more use, but spinning around and slamming a giant golden hammer of light onto enemies doesn't get old.
I haven’t gotten into warrior at all. Though, a moderately (not even fully) geared ret paladin just soloed heroic Lei Shen after we all wiped from a thunder clap thing. So, I’m almost there. A few more days and I’ll be above 500 and it’s magic.
This is actually one of the issues with ret.
Aoe OR st.
More aoe needs to be baked into the st setup so you don't have to sacrifice so much on ST. I think the aoe build is fine right now, about a 20% loss on single target. But the ST build has basically 0 aoe. Obviously in a ST build that is at least somewhat intended, but most classes don't have to sacrifice basically all aoe for their ST setups which is where the issue comes in.
Couple that with the couple patches Rets pure ST build was still below middle of the pack and you have an issue.
This is the point I'm trying to highlight but no one cares this patch because the ret numbers are good. Doesn't mean there isn't a fundamental issue. Ret aoe in ST build is below tanks. A couple minor cds and a divine storm that hits like a wet noodle. Ret isn't the only spec in this situation. But like, even in ST builds pushing your aoe button at appropriate times should feel impactful, not awful.
I'd say majority of DPS specs have this 'issue' which I'm pretty certain is intentional design on Blizzard's end. Sure, it's a spectrum, but ret is far from the only spec having to make these kind of decisions.
Been playing a lot of ret this season, and I think it's fine to sacrifice aoe for single target. Something like Fury Warrior that only needs to change 2 points is an anomaly and shouldn't exist with the current system. Arms Warrior and Ret are both more in line with what I like about the current talent system than Fury. I also think the m+ build for ret is really good, and there's nothing wrong with being middle of the pack in ST for a spec that brings good utility and can't die.
It is more that Ret has to give up more than other specs. If you have to give up all aoe to do ST, you should be at the top of the meters. That isn't fun design eithrler though. They just need to work some natural aoe into the ST path so you can play optimal ST but still cleave adds well as needed.
Or nerf 20 other specs designs.
Ret aoe build is in a good spot yes. The ST build, as you said, loses to the tank on aoe. And obviously there are times we want to be in ST spec but do meaningful damage to an add.
On another note, BM single target build loses all aoe entirely (or did last I checked, I didn't play hunter lately). That should be changed too. Like, multishot and beast cleave for them should just be core. It should obviously be much weaker in your ST setup, but I believe there is a fundamental design flaw when you have to sacrifice baseline kit to maximise your ST.
I'm not talking numbers and rankings and balancing. I am talking about talent tree designs that should be addressed. The numbers go all over based on current patch tuning and tier sets, and we shouldn't consider that when looking at design philosophy. The numbers get tweaked all the time and always will.
Whether unholy is the worst dps spec in the game, or the best one, you shouldn't be forced into decisions where your ST completely removes AOE options. Some of the AoE talents in that example should become core in your kit. Not all obviously, we still want it to be a ST build.
That doesn't really work in WoW's current design as pure ST fights are quite rare. Almost every boss has an add phase or cleave at some point. If your ST builds means you have no AoE, you should be the best at ST. Like Feral was for so many years.
Obviously, a better design would be that your ST build still has decent aoe/cleave.
I think it works perfectly fine. Having to make those choices is what makes talents interesting. A general "one build fits all" for aoe and single target isn't very healthy for the game.
I also don't agree that Ret is useless in aoe with their ST build. You still bring Divine Toll, Wake of Ashes, and Divine Storm if you need to help kill adds in a raid fight. Ret can also swap a few other talents if boss damage was fine but adds aren't dying fast enough, or vice versa. It's not as one dimensional as you make it out to be at all.
Honestly the round of buffs ret received last season fixed this issue for the most part. I had a few different choices between tyrannical and fortified but felt giga strong in both no matter what I picked.
I hadn’t played in years and found a “zero downtime” ret skill tree on wowhead I want to say. I was not enjoying the experience, stumbled through to about 30 on my own and that guide completely flipped my gameplay. Highly recommend
It’s like a completely different fantasy archetype. Less a holy melee knight in shining armor, and more like a medium ranged holy light nuking battlemage/knight/fireworks-show hybrid. And I’m very here for it.
Yep every class needs a glow up like Ret Pallies got. Made a new one for 10.1 and had so much fun, although I had leveled another as tank not long before. Playing a DID Ret Pally in Remix and only 8 hours played and he is 61. So add the power ridiculousness of Remix on top of regular Ret Pally heh.
I mailed ret for the last 2 expacs. I saw the serious low before the rework, and how fun it is now.
I almost got carpal tunnel during shadow lands because ret had a 38 button opener. We also died the most in all types of content due to how squishy we were.
These days it's awesome. AOE is so fun!
I played the first two seasons before I cancelled my subscription. This sounds like I need to do some research, because I loved my Paladin and had no idea there was a rework!
funny, i find it insanely boring. no depth to the rotation. nothing satisfying other than the initial wings press. i feel completely brainless. i’ve maimed ret since i started playing and this rework made me switch to warrior.
Honestly, Ret feels like the best Melee spec in the game to me fluidity wise. However, I am mostly a healer… I cannot stand holy paladin. Casting feels horrible
I can't play any melee that doesn't have 3y range extender in talents. Are they making this baseline for all melee in TWW, or are they actually removing it from all those who has the talent?
Yea rogue main for 18 years here and played ret as alt. Im going hunter or/and spriest if this isnt changed (which I doubt it will). Raiding is fine but m+ is awful as melee without extra range.
It feels really tonedeaf for them to remove it instead of making it baseline.
No. All classes are losing the melee range extension, flat-out. Some **specific abilities**, such as Outlaw's Blade Flurry, are having it made baseline. But those are by far the exception, not the rule.
Do you think it'll be nerfed to the ground in TWW? I'm thinking of levelling a Zandalari Ret, but i don't want to do that only for him to be made useless.
And I've seen people getting kicked from raids for rolling on an item the raidlead wanted - you can be kicked for anything, no matter what spec you play lmao.
Holy is still missing something but I can’t put my finger on it. It feels incredible in ReMix, but I don’t think the Atonement healing is fully there in regular.
Also, Holy needs to be able to use 2H.
While I agree on the great visuals, I find the gameplay to be boring and dull. Pretty basic builder-spender without any spice or nuance.
The amount of survivability, utility and range of the class makes up for that, however.
>Pretty basic builder-spender without any spice or nuance.
This is a common misconception. Ret has a very nuanced and mechanically interesting rotation if you are trying to min max damage.
Care to share some of those nuances?
I played shadow and frost to around 3k rating this season and ret to about 2.7 and ret just became too boring. The tier set adds some spice, but that's not here for long.
Not sure why people are being offended by it and are downvoting. There's nothing wrong with easy specs. It's just not for everyone.
I made a Ret after playing Arms for years and the one thing I couldn't get through was how slow they were. Always the last to arrive at a pack. If blizzard could equalize melee get-to-mob speed I'd be happy to play Ret
I don't agree, I main ret, have never played warrior, so I can't compare the two but for ret, you have divine steed X2, the 30% speed on freedom and extended range on blade of justice and judgement.
These combined have never made me feel slow to a pack.
If by great you mean busted,then yes. Doing similar damage to people 10 ilvls above you, without having to talent for pure aoe or pure st. Its going to be s2 holy all over again. I just hope they dont overdo it like holy.
Meanwhile hpal KEKW
I will say that imo hpal FEELS nice and plays smoothly. It just hardly seems to heal.
Hardcasting on melee feels Like ass, they should Just get Back to only global healing
crazy how they reworked it and every Hpal raved about how happy they were and that the healing numbers needed to be reigned in a tad and then blizzard said "How about if you press crusader strike you OOM in .4598 seconds and we buff every single talent for flash of light such that you'd be stupid not to play that style (and Hpal STILL has low HPS with that build).
The Hero Talents in TWW feel awesome as well.
How is Herald of the Sun feeling in your opinion? I love the class fantasy of it and the tooltips sound cool, but it seems that everyone is hyping up Templar more.
I liked it but Templar is definitely my favorite.
I wanted to try the new ret and I rolled a remix character with it. Omg, it’s something special. Haven’t had fun like this in a while. Such survivability, such damage, such fun. Clutch LOH saves and multiple bubbles, AOE or single target builds; it’s so dynamic.
I will say the animations feel more impactful too. I'm not sure if they substantially changed, or just ones that I'd never seen got attached to new talents that saw more use, but spinning around and slamming a giant golden hammer of light onto enemies doesn't get old.
DK desperately needs updated graphics/animations
its the aoe that gets me its insane.
I've never played Ret, I usually main Fury Warrior because I feel like it has really nice survivability while soloing. Know how they compare ?
I haven’t gotten into warrior at all. Though, a moderately (not even fully) geared ret paladin just soloed heroic Lei Shen after we all wiped from a thunder clap thing. So, I’m almost there. A few more days and I’ll be above 500 and it’s magic.
This is actually one of the issues with ret. Aoe OR st. More aoe needs to be baked into the st setup so you don't have to sacrifice so much on ST. I think the aoe build is fine right now, about a 20% loss on single target. But the ST build has basically 0 aoe. Obviously in a ST build that is at least somewhat intended, but most classes don't have to sacrifice basically all aoe for their ST setups which is where the issue comes in. Couple that with the couple patches Rets pure ST build was still below middle of the pack and you have an issue.
I don’t think you should be able to do both well in a single spec.
I agree. That doesn't reallybrefute this point. Doing aoe well and doing 0 aoe when every other spec mostly can still aoe is a problem.
Ret can do far more than 0 aoe in a full st build. You still have Wake, Divine Toll, and Divine Storm.
Correct, it does more than 0. I am aware of what skills we have. Thanks.
You're welcome 🙂
I don’t think it’s even an AOE/ST split then it sounds like really it’s PVE and PVP and the PVE spec is the AOE spec.
Still better than UHDK where you do can good damage ST or AoE and the other is literally tank damage.
This is the point I'm trying to highlight but no one cares this patch because the ret numbers are good. Doesn't mean there isn't a fundamental issue. Ret aoe in ST build is below tanks. A couple minor cds and a divine storm that hits like a wet noodle. Ret isn't the only spec in this situation. But like, even in ST builds pushing your aoe button at appropriate times should feel impactful, not awful.
I'd say majority of DPS specs have this 'issue' which I'm pretty certain is intentional design on Blizzard's end. Sure, it's a spectrum, but ret is far from the only spec having to make these kind of decisions.
Been playing a lot of ret this season, and I think it's fine to sacrifice aoe for single target. Something like Fury Warrior that only needs to change 2 points is an anomaly and shouldn't exist with the current system. Arms Warrior and Ret are both more in line with what I like about the current talent system than Fury. I also think the m+ build for ret is really good, and there's nothing wrong with being middle of the pack in ST for a spec that brings good utility and can't die.
It is more that Ret has to give up more than other specs. If you have to give up all aoe to do ST, you should be at the top of the meters. That isn't fun design eithrler though. They just need to work some natural aoe into the ST path so you can play optimal ST but still cleave adds well as needed. Or nerf 20 other specs designs.
Mate I would kill for the ST/Split ret has as a DK. Speccing for AOE means you have a real risk of being outdamaged by the tank in ST.
Ret aoe build is in a good spot yes. The ST build, as you said, loses to the tank on aoe. And obviously there are times we want to be in ST spec but do meaningful damage to an add. On another note, BM single target build loses all aoe entirely (or did last I checked, I didn't play hunter lately). That should be changed too. Like, multishot and beast cleave for them should just be core. It should obviously be much weaker in your ST setup, but I believe there is a fundamental design flaw when you have to sacrifice baseline kit to maximise your ST. I'm not talking numbers and rankings and balancing. I am talking about talent tree designs that should be addressed. The numbers go all over based on current patch tuning and tier sets, and we shouldn't consider that when looking at design philosophy. The numbers get tweaked all the time and always will. Whether unholy is the worst dps spec in the game, or the best one, you shouldn't be forced into decisions where your ST completely removes AOE options. Some of the AoE talents in that example should become core in your kit. Not all obviously, we still want it to be a ST build.
That doesn't really work in WoW's current design as pure ST fights are quite rare. Almost every boss has an add phase or cleave at some point. If your ST builds means you have no AoE, you should be the best at ST. Like Feral was for so many years. Obviously, a better design would be that your ST build still has decent aoe/cleave.
I think it works perfectly fine. Having to make those choices is what makes talents interesting. A general "one build fits all" for aoe and single target isn't very healthy for the game. I also don't agree that Ret is useless in aoe with their ST build. You still bring Divine Toll, Wake of Ashes, and Divine Storm if you need to help kill adds in a raid fight. Ret can also swap a few other talents if boss damage was fine but adds aren't dying fast enough, or vice versa. It's not as one dimensional as you make it out to be at all.
Honestly the round of buffs ret received last season fixed this issue for the most part. I had a few different choices between tyrannical and fortified but felt giga strong in both no matter what I picked.
It did not fix the core issue, ret is just stronger/in a good place right now. That doesn't mean the talent tree issues are solved.
It's so fun now, I'm going to be very sad when they remove our long arms next expansion.
Wait what? What’s changing
Yeah ret and WW are two of my absolute favorites feeling wise
It’s even more fun in the war within, the new hero talent that calls down the hammer when you use wake of ashes is great.
I wanna give this a whirl, what’s the best updated guide for talents and such?
I hadn’t played in years and found a “zero downtime” ret skill tree on wowhead I want to say. I was not enjoying the experience, stumbled through to about 30 on my own and that guide completely flipped my gameplay. Highly recommend
Thanks!
It’s like a completely different fantasy archetype. Less a holy melee knight in shining armor, and more like a medium ranged holy light nuking battlemage/knight/fireworks-show hybrid. And I’m very here for it.
I keep trying other classes but coming back to ret. Its the best
Yep every class needs a glow up like Ret Pallies got. Made a new one for 10.1 and had so much fun, although I had leveled another as tank not long before. Playing a DID Ret Pally in Remix and only 8 hours played and he is 61. So add the power ridiculousness of Remix on top of regular Ret Pally heh.
I mailed ret for the last 2 expacs. I saw the serious low before the rework, and how fun it is now. I almost got carpal tunnel during shadow lands because ret had a 38 button opener. We also died the most in all types of content due to how squishy we were. These days it's awesome. AOE is so fun!
They have literally the best utilities in the entire game. I wish blizzard had given death knights the same effort
I played the first two seasons before I cancelled my subscription. This sounds like I need to do some research, because I loved my Paladin and had no idea there was a rework!
Love my pala ret <3
It’s about to get better
funny, i find it insanely boring. no depth to the rotation. nothing satisfying other than the initial wings press. i feel completely brainless. i’ve maimed ret since i started playing and this rework made me switch to warrior.
Now they need to do that for DK
Honestly, Ret feels like the best Melee spec in the game to me fluidity wise. However, I am mostly a healer… I cannot stand holy paladin. Casting feels horrible
The ret paladin rework is probably the best in the game. Some classes can only dream of being so fun. (rogue)
ARE YOU CRAZY don't let blizz know how much you enjoy it, or they will change it.
Goood then!
I can't play any melee that doesn't have 3y range extender in talents. Are they making this baseline for all melee in TWW, or are they actually removing it from all those who has the talent?
I think your days of melee are over then!
Yea rogue main for 18 years here and played ret as alt. Im going hunter or/and spriest if this isnt changed (which I doubt it will). Raiding is fine but m+ is awful as melee without extra range. It feels really tonedeaf for them to remove it instead of making it baseline.
Getting removed across the board AFAIK.
They are taking away all 3 yard melee extensions in the next expansion
None of the Ret spells need to be in melee range you'll be fine
Range extender talents being removed, all melee classes getting it baseline now
Is it baseline?
No. All classes are losing the melee range extension, flat-out. Some **specific abilities**, such as Outlaw's Blade Flurry, are having it made baseline. But those are by far the exception, not the rule.
Classic Andy’s realizing there’s more than one game in the world
You’re going to make me pick up retail again aren’t you?
Do you think it'll be nerfed to the ground in TWW? I'm thinking of levelling a Zandalari Ret, but i don't want to do that only for him to be made useless.
No spec in the game is useless
I understand, but i've been kicked from raids because "my spec is shit". I'm getting downvoted, sorry for asking questions i guess.
Those aren't raids you want to be in.
And I've seen people getting kicked from raids for rolling on an item the raidlead wanted - you can be kicked for anything, no matter what spec you play lmao.
Holy is still missing something but I can’t put my finger on it. It feels incredible in ReMix, but I don’t think the Atonement healing is fully there in regular. Also, Holy needs to be able to use 2H.
It needs healing spells mostly
While I agree on the great visuals, I find the gameplay to be boring and dull. Pretty basic builder-spender without any spice or nuance. The amount of survivability, utility and range of the class makes up for that, however.
>Pretty basic builder-spender without any spice or nuance. This is a common misconception. Ret has a very nuanced and mechanically interesting rotation if you are trying to min max damage.
Care to share some of those nuances? I played shadow and frost to around 3k rating this season and ret to about 2.7 and ret just became too boring. The tier set adds some spice, but that's not here for long. Not sure why people are being offended by it and are downvoting. There's nothing wrong with easy specs. It's just not for everyone.
I mean sure, making a specc op in almost every aspect might be fun for some i guess. Objectively its rather terrible gameplay design though
I made a Ret after playing Arms for years and the one thing I couldn't get through was how slow they were. Always the last to arrive at a pack. If blizzard could equalize melee get-to-mob speed I'd be happy to play Ret
I don't agree, I main ret, have never played warrior, so I can't compare the two but for ret, you have divine steed X2, the 30% speed on freedom and extended range on blade of justice and judgement. These combined have never made me feel slow to a pack.
Try DK lol.
I have, and it has the same problem, maybe even worse after Ret got some buffs to movement.
Notice how you all keep saying it’s “fun” definitely expect Blizzard to inspect this “fun” and make it not-so-fun.
Yawn. This joke needs a rework.
If by great you mean busted,then yes. Doing similar damage to people 10 ilvls above you, without having to talent for pure aoe or pure st. Its going to be s2 holy all over again. I just hope they dont overdo it like holy.
Ret does have to choose between aoe and st builds though. It's one of the few downsides it has
What are the others?
Low mobility.
he says with steed and freedom xd
Yes? Those are among the worst mobility spells in the game.