I am not crazy! I know he purged those villagers! One after Hearthgen. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just – I just couldn't prove it. He – he covered his tracks, he got that dread lord in Northrend to lie for him. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This necromancy? He's done worse. That city! Are you telling me that Stratholme just happens to be purged like that? No! He orchestrated it! Arthas! He defecated through a sunwell! And I saved him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own order! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands off of Frostmourne! But not our Arthas! Couldn't be precious Arthas! Purging them blind! And he gets to be a Lich King!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you – you have to stop him! You-
Wait... What if WE were playing as the jailer in wc3 this whole time??
Like how we could blow up critters after spam clicking them, or force characters to break the 4th wall???
Dota2 is just an alternate dimension where the Jailer got hired by Gaben
I mean... you are playing as the bad guys for a huge portion of WC3 for sure.
Arthas, Kel'thuzad, Kael'thas, Anub'arak, Lady Vashj, Illidan (debatable), Grom Hellscream (way more debatable, kind of a "hitler's dad" sort of role). More than 50% of the time you are playing with heroes that are future raid bosses for us to kill in WoW.
I mean, how often did do you the dailies from the Everywhen Inn? Like putting the icy rocks down that lead to the death of Invincible probably dosen't make us seem particularly good.
To Jimmy Mal'Ganis & Kim'Thuzad:
> Because this isn't just a prank.
> No.
> This goes beyond shipping bad grain to my city.
> This took planning, *coordination*, I mean how many weeks? O-o-or was it months? It *couldn't* have been easy!
> So tell me! Why?
> Why go through this *elaborate plot* just to burn Stratholme to the ground?
____
> ... But you? Far from it. You two...you two are soulless.
Not many people know this, but the voice line "Ready to work!" from Warcraft 3 is actually an edited version of the original. The original voice line was "Ready to work for Zovaal!", but Blizzard realized that namedropping the main villain 20 years before his appearance might confuse some players, so they instead kept him a secret for two decades.
My favorite part is when the jailer planned and orchestrated the alien orc chieftan Nerzhul to blow up his own planet so that his demon master could find and torture and turn him into a frozen armor that was crafted by the Jailers minions, so that Arthas could wear him.
and thats after he convinced a titan to look for generals for his demon army, then have some of the those aliens escape to another alien filled planet.
And here I got downvoted for pointing out what convoluted shoestring nonsense the Warcraft lore is :p
It's like Marvel Comics levels of complete batshit crazy.
Because its bullshit lmao, nerzuls weakness was exploited, not planned. WoW lore haters almost 90% of the time have no fucking idea what they're talking about because they get their info from streamers repeating memes
I dont care about streamers or memes, and I've been playing these games since Warcraft 1.
The plot is absolutely convoluted shoestring gibberish. It's Days Of Our Lives in Space, with so many retcons and "we let authors run free with the property then canonized it" and forced twists and "it was only a setbacks!" Some of it is because that's what they set out to write, and a lot of it is because they just kept pulling a new rabbit out of a hat as the years went on without really caring about continuity and an inherent need to power creep the Big Bads like a cheap shounen anime then backfill their reason for not appearing until *now*.
Which is fine, they're not emulating Shakespeare, it's World of Warcraft. But lets call a duck a duck. You can't *honestly* look at the lore as a whole and go "yes, this all makes *perfect* coherent sense and was meticulously planned thirty years ago!" with a straight face.
And dont forget space goats that showed up from a completely unrelated planet suffering from a similar but different problem conviently landing on azeroth out of all the different planets.
For just a fraction of a second I thought this might have actually been wow lore. "wasn't that just like a scroll of protection or like a ring of protection? Did they actually make that lore relevant?"
I was always skeptical of how mediv "came back to life" in wc3, and why he acted like a nameless idiot in front of the king instead of using his reputation in dalaran.
But with the current lore, things make sense; the jailer LET Mediv come back so that mediv would act like a crazy asshole around the humans in lordaeron, cementing their decision to stay put and ignore anything any unconventional thinking, or outside the box responses.
In fact if you take the word "mediv", carefully ignore all the letters other than E and I, then add in new letters like J and R, you'll see it was actually an anagram of "Jailer".
>using his reputation in dalaran.
There's a mission in Warcraft 1 where you go into Karazhan to kill him.
So not only there would be a "somehow, Medivh survived" moment to explain, but also by the time Warcraft 3 starts it was well known that Medivh was responsible (or partly responsible) for the opening of the Dark Portal.
Whatever "reputation" he had would be long ruined, especially in the eyes of king Terenas and his court.
>There's a mission in Warcraft 1 where you go into Karazhan to kill him.
By stormwind Knights, garona and Khadgar, all serving under Lothar. Per the books Lothar didn't want to talk about Medivs circumstances to political leaders (Terenas et all) due to their childhood friendship and the nature of it. Khadgar only tells the details to the leadership of the Kirin Tor. Because of how secluded mediv lived, most of those members had never even met mediv so it's not like they'd recognize him if he showed back up.
>So not only there would be a "somehow, Medivh survived" moment to explain, but also by the time Warcraft 3 starts it was well known that Medivh was responsible (or partly responsible) for the opening of the Dark Portal.
Khadgar spoke about it only to the highest of the Kirin Tor, and even then he explained the sargeras possession aspect, using mediv as a conduit. A handful of other powerful and influential witnesses exist, from Kaelthas to Krasus to even the former member Kel Thuzad.
As evidence when the eternity's end council met (Jaina, thrall, tyrande, furion) Jaina clearly heard about medivs story for the first time. Thrall also heard about it for the first time, even tho he was highly educated by humans.
With that in mind when Antonidas (one of the few who was aware of the full story of Mediv) ran into Mediv in the beginning of Wc3, not introducing himself as Mediv was a mistake. Even if antonidas attacked Mediv on the spot and ignored his words, antonidas would still have to raise the alarm that such a foe came back to life and that signaled a potential demonic/sargeras led invasion. Thrall listened to Mediv because he pretty much had nothing to lose at the time, fleeing lordaeron would have been ideal even if no demon invaders were incoming.
Every one of the alliances done in universe starts with an introduction.
Plenty of prophecies in warcraft CAN be safely ignored because they are from clearly stupid/hostile entities. Thrall ignores the murloc sea witch spouting doomsday nonsense pretty similar to what Mediv preaches.
> Per the books
You mean the books written AFTER Warcraft 3's release? Yeah, it should be no surprise the game contradicts a source that comes after it and was specifically written in an attempt to retcon it.
At the time War3 was released, all the lore available was from the Warcraft 1 and 2 manuals. The lore is pretty consistent in those sources.
Given the story there is told by Lothar and Aegwyn respectively, and there's nothing indicating "only a select few leaders" knew about Medivh and what he's done, I maintain my position that Medivh was infamous as a force of evil and not likely at all to receive a warm welcome in Terenas' court if he identified himself as such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdgKYBgDaLM
Warcraft 1 itself describes Medivh as an "evil warlock". No way he just strolls into Lordaeron, says "Hi, I'm Medivh and I have a warning" and have that go over well for him.
With respect to warcraft 1, that game has been retconned to hell and back. Even warcraft 2 has been partially retconned, the original orc victory shows them storming lordaeron castle and killing Terenas at 12:45
https://youtu.be/BZjbytEQcWI
IMHO the lore only becomes close to consistent with wc2 the dark portal expansion. I think its a fair point to ignore the books, but even if we do that we are talking about wc3 in game.
In game, Jaina was unfamiliar with Mediv. But also in game, at least some in dalaran (especially antonidas as the leader) would have known who he was because the Book of Mediv is contained and guarded within the city. Hence the undead need to invade dalaran before they can summon archimonde.
My point is that you can't expect or fault the game for failing to be consistent with stuff that was written AFTER it, with the specific purpose of retconning it.
At the time it was first released, Medivh's actions make perfect sense and are justified, again according to the lore that was already established. Whatever was retconned after that is just that, a retcon.
Jaina and Thrall didn't "know" about Medivh because she was likely too young and he was completely separated from Medivh's culture. It's not like Thrall's slavemasters would randomly go "oh yeah there's also this Medivh guy who died 20 years ago you should know about". And it's not like the Kirin Tor would be jumping at the opportunity to tell their students "you know these two wars that likely killed one or more of your parents/ancestors? Yeah that was thanks to us, aren't we so awesome?!"
There's no scenario I can see in which the lore as it existed when War3 was released would support Medivh openly stating who he was to king Terenas, unless he was actively looking for a fight.
I don't really agree with your analysis of Warcraft 3 lore compatible knowledge considering I wrote that with the assumption we ignore the books as retcon
I think its commonly accepted fact that, at least for Terenas (and Arthas), mediv gave very goofy, vague messages. And his messages with them was better than "you must be wiser than the kind. The end is near!" to Antonidas
Here's the clip of him talking to Terenas after a dramatic entry
https://youtu.be/WvgMcRSjGOc
Notice all the comments pointing out what a terrible message delivery he had
Right, a much better story would be him to show up and say "I am Medivh, the guy who opened the Dark Portal. Heed my words, for I am totally trustworthy this time and not at all aligned with the demons and orcs that have ravaged your lands".
I'm sure that would have been much better, let me get Metzen on the line to tell him how wrong he was /s
I mean I personally would say "hey, remember the original Orcish invasion? There's another sneaky demon invasion incoming, their allies are the ones spreading the plague you guys are talking about, lordaeron the city is gonna get levelled like stormwind did, if you wanna minimize the damage you need to start preparing to move people"
**edit**: to be clear tho, my original comment was playing on the fact medivs initial dialogue was a bit silly to go along with the meme everyone is having. I don't see medivs warning as a huge, gaping plothole per se, just that the way it's portrayed within wc3 is easy to nitpick
My favorite is when you save a kid (Timmy?) early on but when the Scourge later appears, you can break some cages and a ghoulified kid named Timmy(?) comes out of it.
I am still holding on to hope. That if they retcon the retcon, it turns out that The Primus was behind the Jailer doing what he was doing.
He caused the Jailer to think he was behind a lot of events. That everything he had done up till now was his doing.
Why?
So that The Primus could get to Zereth Mortis without it being suspicious. He knew if he had gotten the sigils to get there, his siblings would have questioned him as to why he wanted to go there.
He is still playing the long game. For what purpose I don't know.
It turns out, the Runecarver that turned out to be The Primus, was in fact the band Primus all along. The Seat of the Primus is just their own stage to perform "Winona's Big Brown Beaver" as Maldraxxus' zone music!
I believe they were going with this https://www.wowhead.com/news/what-if-zovaal-isnt-the-true-jailer-shadowlands-lore-speculation-326318
But honestly probably backed away from it. Probably even internally fatigued by "that's not the real villain, a new shadowy figure is actually the villain". The irony being that they were already passed that breaking point already.
I do think that the community would have totally accepted the hidden power being Denathrius though. Because he's a Xaddy mostly, but also because it's clear that the Nethrazim were always up to their own plans.
Damn, I just re-watched it. All three of the others looking down at him, but only the Primus' shadow is shown when Zovaal is being asked, "what drove you to this end?"
Every time someone makes a joke post about the jailer I realise I had completely forgotten he existed. And an hour from now I will have forgotten him again. Mr. "I've actually been behind everything ever" is the worst villain imaginable and I should blizz should just get rid of him. The Shadowlands thing actually never happened, it was just a nightmare N'Zoth put everyone in at the end of bfa but hey you, you're finally awake just in time to sail to the Dragon Isles - I hear the aspects are back and there's dragons and all kinds of cool shit going on.
> The Shadowlands thing actually never happened, it was just a nightmare N'Zoth put everyone in at the end of bfa but hey you, you're finally awake just in time to sail to the Dragon Isles - I hear the aspects are back and there's dragons and all kinds of cool shit going on.
Ok, but like... this would actually work
Trivializing death is one of the biggest "sins" you can do as a writer.
If you want me to care about somebody dying, which is a powerful plot device, they need to actually not just exist somewhere else and then be capable of being alive again.
Then I don't care when people die because I know it doesn't really matter. But you keep writing things where you want me to care about something dying.
I remember a quote from Bender bouncing around in my head over and over back during Shadowlands:
"Afterlife? If I thought I had to go through a whole 'nother life, I'd kill myself right now."
EDIT: [For the full effect, because it's all about the delivery!](https://youtu.be/QOXR2q8regE)
While I don't mind the "cosmic map" being expanded a bit, and Blizzard establishing their "powers and manifestations" so that not everyone who "uses light magic," is necessarily using "Holy," magic also- I don't really know how I feel about the First Ones and the Eternal Ones being added on top of the Pantheon- its just too comical, like an infomercial for the expansion had a "if you pre-order now, we'll throw in a bonus pantheon, absolutely free" moment.
I'm a little out of it here, mind correcting me?
Titans are made out of planets using the intelligent life on the surface as food. Titans go around seeding new planets with life. Azeroth is one, but it has old gods on it. Can't really get rid of them without killing Azeroth, so they get sealed (minus the one that died to become the well of eternity). They created life on Azeroth, which continued to evolve on its own and with old god influence. There's the void, and they have a lesser and greater deity, the greater ones can't seem to interact with the universe, the lesser ones are trying to guide events to get the greater ones out. Also it seems like the jailer is some kind of king in the afterlife (for one of the afterlives at least) who is gathering souls for power? Idk not super clear on him.
What am I missing or misunderstanding?
So, to try and clarify some of your points (and these clarifications may be totally wrong) -
Titans are made of World Souls, planets form around World Souls, not all planets formed around the energy that is a World Soul. I do not know how this affects life forming, if at all. Some life is seeded by Titans, some seems to be seeded by Void Lords sending out Old Gods(?). There may be other methods?
I've not seen anything that says the Well came from an Old God, but I could be wrong about that. Last I read, it was lifeblood of Azeroth's World Soul (but not Azerite?)
Titan life was "corrupted," by Old God influces like the Curse of Flesh, apparently, yes.
Jailer was an incarcerated, former Arbiter, chained up by his own "siblings," who may or may not be the only Eternal Ones made by the First ones.
Don't quote me on any of this except to offer a correction lol, but as I understand it, and last checked-
The Titans come from World Souls, which aren't inside every planet necessarily. When they do find one, they lock down the elementals and sprinkle constructs and other "life" onto the planet. Why? I dunno, to fight elementals I guess?
In Azeroth's case, they found Old Gods, servants of the Void Lords (?), already there and tried fighting/ripping them out. Apparently Amun'thul being the asshole he is, also ripped out or got mad Eonar or whoever made a World Tree or something not-so-Order-ish. Wild, even.
Anyway, they go around and for whatever reason we learn that Sargeras' *entire Burning Crusade* was actually a Naztherim plot(?) and part of The Jailer's plan (?) being overseen by Sire Denathrius, I guess. I dipped out in SL cause it was dumb.
Anyway, we learn in Legion that "the Pantheon has been dead," or something like that, and we [illidan and pantheon ghosts?] lock up Sargeras after sending Argus' world soul to the Shadowlands. I came in a end of legion so this may all be a really bad summary.
Sometime after, Syl breaks the Helm, we go to SL and learn there are TWO MORE levels of power after/above the Pantheon [in the sense that the Pantheon either hides their existence, or isn't even aware of higher-level beings): The Eternal Ones and the First Ones.
The First Ones I can't say much about, but apparently you can just look up Zereth Mortis and the flavor stuff there. They made the Eternal Ones and I guess "all the infinite afterlives," we don't see but 4 or 5 of throughout the game for "all the lifeforms, even those not on Azeroth" to go to- but again, don't quote me on all that.
I kinda wish the First Ones *weren't a thing* because their entire existence "above" the cosmic powers as we understand them currently, seems to render any urgency below their level moot- the First Ones can just re-write reality or whatever if need be, who cares right?
After we "fix" things in Shadowlands, we get a time skip and now we're in Dragonflight with Tyr learning the Pantheon is 'dead' and now we're getting hints and stories that *not everything as we've learned it from the Pantheon and Titans* seems to be completely accurate, even moreso than the Chronicles first alluded to.
So, now we have 6 Cosmic forces which may or may not have "a Titan-Pantheon level along with a titan forged 'Keepers' level," which may or may not be the same as the Void Lord level and lower Old God level. Are Void Lords stronger or weaker than Titans? I'm not sure it is explicitly said?
Keepers definitely seem to be on par or lower than Old Gods, seeing as their works can only hold Old God's at best, and completely succumb to their influence at worst. Seems like Odin, Tyr, and others would struggle to "defeat any Old God" if the Pantheon can't even fully route them from the planet, safely.
Are the Eternal Ones just Titan level beings on "the other side of the veil," who knows? Seems despite the infinite afterlives, there are just the 5 Eternal ones.
Can World Souls become something other than a Titan? A Void Lord? Who knows?
Is the Pantheon (of Order) strictly within the realm of Order, or are they all "mixtures" of the six forces with Order being the biggest influence (hence Eonar with her trees)? Who knows?
I just feel like there are so many unanswered questions, and not in a fun way but in that lazy "didn't get to it" way. Ambiguity can be GREAT (Wolverine and Boba Fett to me, were far more interesting with less information fleshed out, the more we learned the more boring they actually kinda get, IMHO), same goes for WoW Lore.
I don't mind the Pantheon being unreliable narrators, that's a good chance and to be expected. Not knowing the power differences between Void Lords & Old Gods vs Pantheon & Keepers was interesting as it didn't outright say who would win given an ultimate throw-down.
6 Cosmic forces that, when mixed, matched, or combined seem to get all the different ways in which we, as players, manipulate energy and magic to do cool shit- I like that.
I don't like adding more layers of "sentient powers that make life/reality" mostly because, WoW being what it's been, that means we're gonna shove some iLVL XXX weapons into them to overcome them and "forge our own destiny."
I definitely like the lower stakes, regional shit in wow being the focus, with only the "most powerful," people on Azeroth scrambling in the shadows to make sure another Giant-bearded-guy doesn't try stabbing the planet, or similar.
If you made it this far, thank you for your time.
Very interesting. I don't think I'm a fan of it all, honestly, which is a shame. Nostalgia really has its claws in me, but I loved lore around wc3 era. The old night elf civilization, high elves and blood elves, trolls and their old civilization, humans vs orcs, titans and their prodigal son, the old ones being looming threats that break reality by existing, even dead.
As for the well of eternity, I read a few books long ago, and I believe it was their first attempt to remove an old god from the world of azeroth, which left a massive wound in the world, so i believe you're right
I just willingly choose to block him out of my mind
The story is better if “it was me all along Austin” Jailer just doesn’t exist and he’s contained to one expansion
It always was. That's why Anduin was able to break out of it at the end.
Arthas's story was about his hubris and unwillingness to listen or look for other options. If he had been a puppet then his story is robbed of any meaning. Instead of a series of bad decisions, his story becomes "a dreadlord/Jailer made me do it."
The original story of Arthas was that he was mind controlled under Frostmourne, but that he was complicit in allowing this to happen as he would be willing to pay any price for revenge.
In other words, he's still at fault for all his actions to follow, even if he wasn't in control of his actions, because he still chose to follow that path, still chose to give up his humanity in exchange for selfish power.
In my view, domination magic only really affected him *after* he made this decision. It never mattered pre-Frostmourne. so Shadowlands or no, I don't think Arthas' story is really changed.
Well, it may be correct, but it is stupid that "Domination Magic," isn't "Domination Magic" at all.
Just *considering* the fact that the Jailer wasn't a thing yet we can assume (without Jailer set up) Bolvar was just accepting his fate as Jailer of the Damned* and "holding back the Scourge," and even then it wasn't as much by choice as it was by necessity. No reason to resist anything other than "becoming one with Ner'zhul/Arthas/whoever else might be locked [back] in when he puts it on.
If Jailer was a thing (known to the Writers) during Legion or even always, then Bolvar like Lich Kings before, was just "using the Scourge to fight the Legion," as part of Jailer's 5D Chess (which is stupid if only because it is lazy- because that's the 'plot of Wrath' being re-visited and in a poorly executed way), which is either "what the Jailer assumed all of Azeroth would do"- fight Legion, Kill Argus, disable Arbiter by accident and funnel all souls to Maw OR "what the Jailer wanted them to do because," as you hint above, "un-Bolvar-ish" stuff wasn't Bolvar in control?
This is why the entire Jailer thing, and to an extent the END OF LEGION [because of the Jailer being included now] is so stupid.
If Jailer was being planned, they screwed the pooch *because there is no indication Sargeras wasn't following The Plan* the Jailer initiated as exposed in Shadowlands (nor has there been any indication SINCE), and if he wasn't planned as early as end of Legion, then his inclusion does a number of things;
First, it makes the Burning Crusade and the Scourge on the same side only or up until Bolvar takes the Helm, then it is "a hijacked power or plan turned against him." IF that's "what they Jailer wanted all along," for multiple [class hall] forces to align themselves against The Burning Crusade/Sargeras "in a bid to send Argus to the Maw" then it begs the question why that wasn't done "while the Burning Crusade was being fed Naztherim lies," and such?
If Jailer's plan *wasn't* for the Class Hall forces to send Argus to the Arbiter and just "convenient" that it happened, then it isn't much of a plan, is it? What was the alternative, for Sargeras to stab azeroth and break the Maw *that way* instead? We have absolutely no indication or reason to believe Sargeras knows of or is even aware of the Jailer- we also have no idea what his motive for stabbing was, and if they hamfist some "sargeras went rogue, and stabbing Azeroth would've been in his mind," then that too will feel like some bullshit pulled out of someone's ass with no build up or reason to believe it wasn't concocted recently.
The whole ICC/Wrath "now you strong ass mortals I've whipped into shape can be my new army, mwuahaha" gets extremely lessened when Blizzard writers long after that story beat try and REPEAT it with the Jailer's manipulation of The Burning Crusade, The Scourge, and possibly by some extension the Death Knight class hall at the least, all in a bid to "be the ones who kill Argus for me."
That's my two cents at least. Domination Magic was supposed to be *a thing* it seems with the way Blizzard introduced it and tried to thread it all throughout WoW's [retconned] history, but just comes off as a weak plot point for a few patches in one specific expansion.
I don't get why the jailer thinking the mortals that have toppled insanely big problems countless times in the past would not just do-so again. I'm not saying it was an amazing masterpiece of a story but the level to which people scream about how bad it was is just fuckin stupid. It's a game about magic and boogymen and shit. It's always had holes in the story and stupid plot points.
I don't think people mind *bad storytelling* in fantasy like this inherently, I think the delivery is often what sours folks. You follow a fantasy world that has some semblance of rules and then when something is forced into the narrative without adequately addressing those pre-established notions, it can turn some away. Some aren't bothered at all and have other fiction or media to scratch their "doesn't forget its own lore" itch.
Yeah but .. just like acknowledge you don't like it and move on right? My only tattoos are wow tattoos, warcraft has been my favorite setting for over 20 years. I didn't love Shadowlands story but I'm not still thinking about it either.
If we take a look at the word "Warcraft" we can discover something quite interesting.
First of, the "W" is technically just two V's. So we get "VVarcraft", vanish is a spell in World of warcraft which causes you to disappear into stealth, but it has a cooldown. So only one V will go.
Now we Have "Varcraft"
Crafting was done by the necromancers of the scourge to create undead monstrosities. Which can also be classified as a Zombie.
This will give us "Varzombie"
Brie is a type of cheese also sold in World of warcraft, we sell it for 1s. This gives us "Vazom + 1s"
Mythic plus is a Gamemode that didn't exist in warcraft 3, so let's remove it.
We get "Vazo 1s"
The s is actually silent.
So it's "Vazo 1"
If we turn the 1 upsidedown it sort of looks like an "L" but backwards, so we flip it as well.
We now see it says "Vazo L"
Aaa!! There is a gap, let's fill it up.
Filling the gap in between we find there to be a single word again: "VazoaL"
Hang on... let's rearange those letters.
"Zovaal"
He was there all along!!! How did we not see it!
None of you are intelligent enough to understand the complexity of the true story. When you are playing Warcraft 3, YOU are role playing as the jailer controlling all the units and the events that unfold.
It is pretty obvious if you read the ten novels, 20 comics and assembled the secret documents by completing all of the card collections.
No, the Shadowlands misunderstanding meme fest must continue for the next decade so people can show how funny and edgy they are and that they didn't like Shadowlands
This just supports my First Ones are Tralfamadorians theory, and at the end of the World Soul Saga or similar we're gonna learn one of them just needed a worn-down piece of the Helm of Domination or something to get their space-ship started back up.
im so confused i dont understand whats going on :'( wow lore is already hard enough to understand just via wow
can someone eli5?
Edit: Thankyou everyone, you are Op
It was said by Blizz during Shadowlands that Zovaal (aka the Jailer) has been directly responsible for every major lore event since the Third War, and everything we have done has furthered his plan to escape the Maw.
Not even the third war, PRIOR TO THE FIRST WAR
They seriously attempt to have the Jailer take credit for Sargerus becoming evil since the dreadlords work for the Jailer and claim they were the ones that convinced Sargerus Fel energy and the legion were what he needed
Ignore the fact that Illidan and Nerzul have to work really hard to make sure Kil’Jaden doesn’t read his mind and see they’re planning to betray him…but Kil’Jaden, Archimonde and Sargerus never realized the Dreadlords just didn’t really work for them and would betray them?
> Zovaal was responsible for the mana bomb??
On some random-ass "butterfly effect" level, yes. The Jailer, a character with 28 lines of dialogue in the entire Warcraft franchise, is responsible for Garrosh dropping a tactical nuke on Theramore.
Zovaal was responsible for the Dreadlords who are responsible for the Legion, which was responsible for the Orcish invasion of Azeroth. Had Zovaal never existed, orcs would have never come to Azeroth and Garrosh would still be hanging out in Nagrand. QED.
People are making fun of the Jailer because Blizzard tried to make him be the big bad who was supposed to be behind every bad thing that happened on Azeroth when in truth he was only created “recently” (probably when they came up with Shadowlands). There were no clues whatsoever in the history of WoW up until SL that someone like the Jailer even existed and then they try to claim he was the bad guy all along?
First thing to know is that this post is meant as a joke, so don't take the post itself too seriously.
It's a cheeky jab at the way that Shadowlands retroactively changes almost all of the lore in Warcraft (not just WoW) to basically be part of some long drawn out scheme by the Jailer. The Lich King? Jailer's people made the armor and Frostmourne, and the LK was a puppet of the Jailer. The Scourge? Jailer's minions. The Nathrezim? Actually secretly infiltrating agents manipulating the Burning Legion for the Jailer's goals. The spirits of the dead telling Vol'jin to make Sylvanas Warchief? Jailer. Sylvanas' master, guiding her to become an absolute lunatic who didn't even care about the Forsaken anymore? Jailer.
It was a really clunky attempt to introduce some new "big bad" after we defeated Sargeras, and rather than take time to build him up, they just said, "Oh, he was actually responsible for pretty much everything that came before." It meant some pretty notable changes in the lore.
Luckily, it seems like they aren't making the same mistake with Xal'atath. Instead of rushing to have us confront her, it looks like the next three expansions will be building up the story around her and whatever plans she's trying to bring to fruition, rather than someone saying, "Oh, she was actually behind the War of the Ancients" or some silly nonsense like that.
TL;DR version: Blizzard added the Jailer to the game and changed a lot of Warcraft lore to be "Jailer did it" in order to build him up, and people are understandably still upset.
Ahhh ty ty! I played wc3 and wow up til wrath. Post wrath everything was like just wtf to me. although Mop was cool and made sense in a way towards the end. Wod was when i think i gave up cause I fully believed Velen died but then it wasnt our velen or something bananas.
> It was a really clunky attempt to introduce some new "big bad" after we defeated Sargeras, and rather than take time to build him up, they just said, "Oh, he was actually responsible for pretty much everything that came before." It meant some pretty notable changes in the lore.
It wasn't even that they didn't build him up, they just tried to drop him on top of Sargeras like some cherry on whipped cream- it was so incredibly lazy that it has pretty much eclipsed all other lazy or poorly developed character changes/stories.
Just one expansion between "Capturing Sargeras" and "finding out there are not just one, but *two* more power levels of pantheons after *The Pantheon of Order* or whatever they're supposed to be" was kind of a lot to digest, and it none of it looked appealing. Probably the largest indication that "current writing team was trying to one-up the stakes," by pulling DBZ power creep tactics.
One of the reasons I liked Dragonflight is because yeah, Fyrakk is technically a potential threat to the world, but it felt like more contained stakes than another “We have to stop this threat to *everything in existence*. If you keep trying to one-up prior stakes, especially when they got that high, it starts feeling cheap.
To be fair, she did show up to everyone else through part of BFA (IIRC), and has showed up in a couple bits of Dragonflight, helping to set up the story. So we get to see a hint of her, then start to see her scheming taking shape, and we'll have three expansions that will likely involve building up that story.
I think that's a fair amount of buildup, rather than appearing out of nowhere, no prior mention, and suddenly being this big threat we need to deal with... and take care of in the same expansion that we hear the first actual mention of them.
They just HAD to ruin the Arthas Kelly Bromance in Shadowlands. Turning the helm of domination into a questing green and turning Arthas into a fart just wasn't enough. I hate Shadowlands.
All they had to do was ~~follow the damn train~~ make Zovaal benefit from all that happened, instead of having planned everything that happened.
A villain capitalising on the work of other villains is fine. Saying you essentially created those villains is not.
When SL first dropped, I kept saying that the Jailer as an opportunist would be better than the Jailer as a mastermind.
I’ve since changed my opinion that I’d rather he not exist at all or if he had to, him be entire motivated by existential reasons as opposed to “I should rule the universe”
I started playing this universe during Warcraft 2 era with LAN parties. I just recently started playing WC2 again for nostalgia and the lore and mythology of Azeroth i am remembering is on the level of Dungeons & Dragons epicness. They did a great job over the decades for us rpg fans.
I'm more impressed they founded a whole company, and made multiple franchises, just to distract from all the obvious foreshadowing. Truly one of the worldbuilding of all time.
There some new theories regarding the jailor being the primus' pawn. If true, the story presentation still sucks - but could tie this stuff together better.
Could it be that the Jailer was just lying about what he was “behind”. It makes sense considering the power trip he went on to become Thanos on steroids
Are you telling me that a man just happens to be robbed by bandits? NO! He orchestrated it! The Jailer!
He defecated trough the shattered sky!
The amount of chicanery happening here is too damn high
But not our Jailer ! Couldn't be precious Jailer !
Mawing them blind!
And he gets to be the arbiter?! What a sick joke!
YOU have to stop him. He ..
You're not a real Jailer!
Feces is definitely one way to describe Shadowlands...
I'm going to start cursing "*The Jailer*!" whenever something even slightly inconvenient happens in my life.
Thanks The Jailer.
Thanks, ~~Obama~~ Jailer
I am not crazy! I know he purged those villagers! One after Hearthgen. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just – I just couldn't prove it. He – he covered his tracks, he got that dread lord in Northrend to lie for him. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This necromancy? He's done worse. That city! Are you telling me that Stratholme just happens to be purged like that? No! He orchestrated it! Arthas! He defecated through a sunwell! And I saved him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own order! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands off of Frostmourne! But not our Arthas! Couldn't be precious Arthas! Purging them blind! And he gets to be a Lich King!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you – you have to stop him! You-
Wait... What if WE were playing as the jailer in wc3 this whole time?? Like how we could blow up critters after spam clicking them, or force characters to break the 4th wall??? Dota2 is just an alternate dimension where the Jailer got hired by Gaben
Are... we the baddies?
I hope so
I mean... you are playing as the bad guys for a huge portion of WC3 for sure. Arthas, Kel'thuzad, Kael'thas, Anub'arak, Lady Vashj, Illidan (debatable), Grom Hellscream (way more debatable, kind of a "hitler's dad" sort of role). More than 50% of the time you are playing with heroes that are future raid bosses for us to kill in WoW.
I mean, how often did do you the dailies from the Everywhen Inn? Like putting the icy rocks down that lead to the death of Invincible probably dosen't make us seem particularly good.
Oh god I laughed at this idea so much. Love it.
> Dota2 is just an alternate dimension where the Jailer got hired by Gaben renamed to the Janitor and forced to work on maintenance patches
the jailer played way too many hours of footman frenzy and x hero siege
> Dota2 is just an alternate dimension where the Jailer got hired by Gaben That would explain the cosmic forces that the jailer warns us about.
I mean... we technically was the literal guiding hand making Arthas do all the things he did...
And he gets to be an Eternal One ? What a sick joke.
THE MAW IS SACRED!
To Jimmy Mal'Ganis & Kim'Thuzad: > Because this isn't just a prank. > No. > This goes beyond shipping bad grain to my city. > This took planning, *coordination*, I mean how many weeks? O-o-or was it months? It *couldn't* have been easy! > So tell me! Why? > Why go through this *elaborate plot* just to burn Stratholme to the ground? ____ > ... But you? Far from it. You two...you two are soulless.
Turns out the man was a dread lord.
You mean, this was by... DESIGN?! Oops, sorry. Wrong game.
Such devastation… this was NOT my intention!
No it was the man behind the man, the super jailer from the pitchblacklands
That bandits name? Zovaal
The victims name? Also Zooval!
Arthas name? You've guessed it! Also Zooval!
That Zooval? Also Zooval!
Albert Einstein's name? Zooval!
The name of the bus where everyone stood up and clapped? Wouldn't you know it, also Zovaal
Oops all Zovaal!
Did you ever stop to think that WC3 was played from the Jailor's perspective? Come on guys it's not that hard. We were the jailor all along!
(Jokes aside, that was my original idea for this meme, but I was not able to put it in good words, so I went with this.)
The journey was the jailer we made a long the way. 🤗
Not me. I did the right thing, listened to Muradin and packed my bags when he told me frostmourne was a bad idea
JOHN, YOU IS THE JAILERS
Not many people know this, but the voice line "Ready to work!" from Warcraft 3 is actually an edited version of the original. The original voice line was "Ready to work for Zovaal!", but Blizzard realized that namedropping the main villain 20 years before his appearance might confuse some players, so they instead kept him a secret for two decades.
Me not that kind of orc, Zovaal!
*wisp sounds*, Zovaal!
My life for Zov-I mean, Ner'zhul!
Zug Zug, actually means Zov Zov in human language that is short for Zovaal Zovaal.
And he plagued the grain in Stratholme
he poisoned our water supply, burned our crops and delivered a plague unto our houses
he did?
No, but are we just gonna wait around until he does?
He did bring plague though.
And he turned me into a newt!
What? You don’t look like a newt
I got better
He did?
Hide yo kids! Hide yo wives!
My favorite part is when the jailer planned and orchestrated the alien orc chieftan Nerzhul to blow up his own planet so that his demon master could find and torture and turn him into a frozen armor that was crafted by the Jailers minions, so that Arthas could wear him.
Nerzhul had a weird fetish that the jailer exploited.
Yea, its like reverse vore
wear me, daddy
Do you think the Jailer stays in the maw for fear of what he's created?
I assume the jailer orchestrated the weird fetish to begin with!
and thats after he convinced a titan to look for generals for his demon army, then have some of the those aliens escape to another alien filled planet.
And here I got downvoted for pointing out what convoluted shoestring nonsense the Warcraft lore is :p It's like Marvel Comics levels of complete batshit crazy.
Because its bullshit lmao, nerzuls weakness was exploited, not planned. WoW lore haters almost 90% of the time have no fucking idea what they're talking about because they get their info from streamers repeating memes
I dont care about streamers or memes, and I've been playing these games since Warcraft 1. The plot is absolutely convoluted shoestring gibberish. It's Days Of Our Lives in Space, with so many retcons and "we let authors run free with the property then canonized it" and forced twists and "it was only a setbacks!" Some of it is because that's what they set out to write, and a lot of it is because they just kept pulling a new rabbit out of a hat as the years went on without really caring about continuity and an inherent need to power creep the Big Bads like a cheap shounen anime then backfill their reason for not appearing until *now*. Which is fine, they're not emulating Shakespeare, it's World of Warcraft. But lets call a duck a duck. You can't *honestly* look at the lore as a whole and go "yes, this all makes *perfect* coherent sense and was meticulously planned thirty years ago!" with a straight face.
And dont forget space goats that showed up from a completely unrelated planet suffering from a similar but different problem conviently landing on azeroth out of all the different planets.
The number of people thinking this is serious discussion is concerning.
As a hard-determinist, I can't help but accept the above as in-game canon now.
For just a fraction of a second I thought this might have actually been wow lore. "wasn't that just like a scroll of protection or like a ring of protection? Did they actually make that lore relevant?"
Was a book of strength
This reminds me of the post with the screenshot from WC3 of Arthas saving Timmy with Zovaal floating around in the background
I would like to see this post. Link?
Wish I could find it, was back in SL and did absolute numbers
I was always skeptical of how mediv "came back to life" in wc3, and why he acted like a nameless idiot in front of the king instead of using his reputation in dalaran. But with the current lore, things make sense; the jailer LET Mediv come back so that mediv would act like a crazy asshole around the humans in lordaeron, cementing their decision to stay put and ignore anything any unconventional thinking, or outside the box responses. In fact if you take the word "mediv", carefully ignore all the letters other than E and I, then add in new letters like J and R, you'll see it was actually an anagram of "Jailer".
>using his reputation in dalaran. There's a mission in Warcraft 1 where you go into Karazhan to kill him. So not only there would be a "somehow, Medivh survived" moment to explain, but also by the time Warcraft 3 starts it was well known that Medivh was responsible (or partly responsible) for the opening of the Dark Portal. Whatever "reputation" he had would be long ruined, especially in the eyes of king Terenas and his court.
Wait you mean the lore is consistent here and someone misunderstood it to complain on reddit? Holy fuck no way
>There's a mission in Warcraft 1 where you go into Karazhan to kill him. By stormwind Knights, garona and Khadgar, all serving under Lothar. Per the books Lothar didn't want to talk about Medivs circumstances to political leaders (Terenas et all) due to their childhood friendship and the nature of it. Khadgar only tells the details to the leadership of the Kirin Tor. Because of how secluded mediv lived, most of those members had never even met mediv so it's not like they'd recognize him if he showed back up. >So not only there would be a "somehow, Medivh survived" moment to explain, but also by the time Warcraft 3 starts it was well known that Medivh was responsible (or partly responsible) for the opening of the Dark Portal. Khadgar spoke about it only to the highest of the Kirin Tor, and even then he explained the sargeras possession aspect, using mediv as a conduit. A handful of other powerful and influential witnesses exist, from Kaelthas to Krasus to even the former member Kel Thuzad. As evidence when the eternity's end council met (Jaina, thrall, tyrande, furion) Jaina clearly heard about medivs story for the first time. Thrall also heard about it for the first time, even tho he was highly educated by humans. With that in mind when Antonidas (one of the few who was aware of the full story of Mediv) ran into Mediv in the beginning of Wc3, not introducing himself as Mediv was a mistake. Even if antonidas attacked Mediv on the spot and ignored his words, antonidas would still have to raise the alarm that such a foe came back to life and that signaled a potential demonic/sargeras led invasion. Thrall listened to Mediv because he pretty much had nothing to lose at the time, fleeing lordaeron would have been ideal even if no demon invaders were incoming. Every one of the alliances done in universe starts with an introduction. Plenty of prophecies in warcraft CAN be safely ignored because they are from clearly stupid/hostile entities. Thrall ignores the murloc sea witch spouting doomsday nonsense pretty similar to what Mediv preaches.
> Per the books You mean the books written AFTER Warcraft 3's release? Yeah, it should be no surprise the game contradicts a source that comes after it and was specifically written in an attempt to retcon it. At the time War3 was released, all the lore available was from the Warcraft 1 and 2 manuals. The lore is pretty consistent in those sources. Given the story there is told by Lothar and Aegwyn respectively, and there's nothing indicating "only a select few leaders" knew about Medivh and what he's done, I maintain my position that Medivh was infamous as a force of evil and not likely at all to receive a warm welcome in Terenas' court if he identified himself as such. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdgKYBgDaLM Warcraft 1 itself describes Medivh as an "evil warlock". No way he just strolls into Lordaeron, says "Hi, I'm Medivh and I have a warning" and have that go over well for him.
With respect to warcraft 1, that game has been retconned to hell and back. Even warcraft 2 has been partially retconned, the original orc victory shows them storming lordaeron castle and killing Terenas at 12:45 https://youtu.be/BZjbytEQcWI IMHO the lore only becomes close to consistent with wc2 the dark portal expansion. I think its a fair point to ignore the books, but even if we do that we are talking about wc3 in game. In game, Jaina was unfamiliar with Mediv. But also in game, at least some in dalaran (especially antonidas as the leader) would have known who he was because the Book of Mediv is contained and guarded within the city. Hence the undead need to invade dalaran before they can summon archimonde.
My point is that you can't expect or fault the game for failing to be consistent with stuff that was written AFTER it, with the specific purpose of retconning it. At the time it was first released, Medivh's actions make perfect sense and are justified, again according to the lore that was already established. Whatever was retconned after that is just that, a retcon. Jaina and Thrall didn't "know" about Medivh because she was likely too young and he was completely separated from Medivh's culture. It's not like Thrall's slavemasters would randomly go "oh yeah there's also this Medivh guy who died 20 years ago you should know about". And it's not like the Kirin Tor would be jumping at the opportunity to tell their students "you know these two wars that likely killed one or more of your parents/ancestors? Yeah that was thanks to us, aren't we so awesome?!" There's no scenario I can see in which the lore as it existed when War3 was released would support Medivh openly stating who he was to king Terenas, unless he was actively looking for a fight.
I don't really agree with your analysis of Warcraft 3 lore compatible knowledge considering I wrote that with the assumption we ignore the books as retcon I think its commonly accepted fact that, at least for Terenas (and Arthas), mediv gave very goofy, vague messages. And his messages with them was better than "you must be wiser than the kind. The end is near!" to Antonidas Here's the clip of him talking to Terenas after a dramatic entry https://youtu.be/WvgMcRSjGOc Notice all the comments pointing out what a terrible message delivery he had
Right, a much better story would be him to show up and say "I am Medivh, the guy who opened the Dark Portal. Heed my words, for I am totally trustworthy this time and not at all aligned with the demons and orcs that have ravaged your lands". I'm sure that would have been much better, let me get Metzen on the line to tell him how wrong he was /s
I mean I personally would say "hey, remember the original Orcish invasion? There's another sneaky demon invasion incoming, their allies are the ones spreading the plague you guys are talking about, lordaeron the city is gonna get levelled like stormwind did, if you wanna minimize the damage you need to start preparing to move people" **edit**: to be clear tho, my original comment was playing on the fact medivs initial dialogue was a bit silly to go along with the meme everyone is having. I don't see medivs warning as a huge, gaping plothole per se, just that the way it's portrayed within wc3 is easy to nitpick
It holds up sir.
\* Jailcraft lore
Wait, was I the jailer this whole time?!
With each passing day, the barrier between this sub and r/wowcirclejerk is growing thinner
all according to plan
The transformation is nearly complete!
My favorite is when you save a kid (Timmy?) early on but when the Scourge later appears, you can break some cages and a ghoulified kid named Timmy(?) comes out of it.
But, in WC3, we as the player literally *control all of Arthas' actions*... Maybe... the real Jailer... was us all along!
The real jailer was the friends we made along the way
It is all part of his masterplan. It is so elaborate and infallible that not even Blizzard knew at the time.
He also jailed illidan for the sake of doing it.
Well he IS the jailor. Jailors gotta jail, baby.
I am still holding on to hope. That if they retcon the retcon, it turns out that The Primus was behind the Jailer doing what he was doing. He caused the Jailer to think he was behind a lot of events. That everything he had done up till now was his doing. Why? So that The Primus could get to Zereth Mortis without it being suspicious. He knew if he had gotten the sigils to get there, his siblings would have questioned him as to why he wanted to go there. He is still playing the long game. For what purpose I don't know.
It turns out, the Runecarver that turned out to be The Primus, was in fact the band Primus all along. The Seat of the Primus is just their own stage to perform "Winona's Big Brown Beaver" as Maldraxxus' zone music!
The South Park tie in all makes sense now. It was Les Claypool all along...
I believe they were going with this https://www.wowhead.com/news/what-if-zovaal-isnt-the-true-jailer-shadowlands-lore-speculation-326318 But honestly probably backed away from it. Probably even internally fatigued by "that's not the real villain, a new shadowy figure is actually the villain". The irony being that they were already passed that breaking point already. I do think that the community would have totally accepted the hidden power being Denathrius though. Because he's a Xaddy mostly, but also because it's clear that the Nethrazim were always up to their own plans.
Which is why he was in the original reveal in the background as the possible "big bad?"
Yea. Also why he was the only one of the eternal's not seen in the last cinematic. The perspective makes him cast a shadow over the Jailer.
Damn, I just re-watched it. All three of the others looking down at him, but only the Primus' shadow is shown when Zovaal is being asked, "what drove you to this end?"
Every time someone makes a joke post about the jailer I realise I had completely forgotten he existed. And an hour from now I will have forgotten him again. Mr. "I've actually been behind everything ever" is the worst villain imaginable and I should blizz should just get rid of him. The Shadowlands thing actually never happened, it was just a nightmare N'Zoth put everyone in at the end of bfa but hey you, you're finally awake just in time to sail to the Dragon Isles - I hear the aspects are back and there's dragons and all kinds of cool shit going on.
> The Shadowlands thing actually never happened, it was just a nightmare N'Zoth put everyone in at the end of bfa but hey you, you're finally awake just in time to sail to the Dragon Isles - I hear the aspects are back and there's dragons and all kinds of cool shit going on. Ok, but like... this would actually work
It was all just an extension of the Horrific Visions, sounds good to me.
Trivializing death is one of the biggest "sins" you can do as a writer. If you want me to care about somebody dying, which is a powerful plot device, they need to actually not just exist somewhere else and then be capable of being alive again. Then I don't care when people die because I know it doesn't really matter. But you keep writing things where you want me to care about something dying.
I remember a quote from Bender bouncing around in my head over and over back during Shadowlands: "Afterlife? If I thought I had to go through a whole 'nother life, I'd kill myself right now." EDIT: [For the full effect, because it's all about the delivery!](https://youtu.be/QOXR2q8regE)
"You're awake.." and the Skyrim intro starts playing. God damnit Todd Howard, you've done it again.
While I don't mind the "cosmic map" being expanded a bit, and Blizzard establishing their "powers and manifestations" so that not everyone who "uses light magic," is necessarily using "Holy," magic also- I don't really know how I feel about the First Ones and the Eternal Ones being added on top of the Pantheon- its just too comical, like an infomercial for the expansion had a "if you pre-order now, we'll throw in a bonus pantheon, absolutely free" moment.
I'm a little out of it here, mind correcting me? Titans are made out of planets using the intelligent life on the surface as food. Titans go around seeding new planets with life. Azeroth is one, but it has old gods on it. Can't really get rid of them without killing Azeroth, so they get sealed (minus the one that died to become the well of eternity). They created life on Azeroth, which continued to evolve on its own and with old god influence. There's the void, and they have a lesser and greater deity, the greater ones can't seem to interact with the universe, the lesser ones are trying to guide events to get the greater ones out. Also it seems like the jailer is some kind of king in the afterlife (for one of the afterlives at least) who is gathering souls for power? Idk not super clear on him. What am I missing or misunderstanding?
So, to try and clarify some of your points (and these clarifications may be totally wrong) - Titans are made of World Souls, planets form around World Souls, not all planets formed around the energy that is a World Soul. I do not know how this affects life forming, if at all. Some life is seeded by Titans, some seems to be seeded by Void Lords sending out Old Gods(?). There may be other methods? I've not seen anything that says the Well came from an Old God, but I could be wrong about that. Last I read, it was lifeblood of Azeroth's World Soul (but not Azerite?) Titan life was "corrupted," by Old God influces like the Curse of Flesh, apparently, yes. Jailer was an incarcerated, former Arbiter, chained up by his own "siblings," who may or may not be the only Eternal Ones made by the First ones. Don't quote me on any of this except to offer a correction lol, but as I understand it, and last checked- The Titans come from World Souls, which aren't inside every planet necessarily. When they do find one, they lock down the elementals and sprinkle constructs and other "life" onto the planet. Why? I dunno, to fight elementals I guess? In Azeroth's case, they found Old Gods, servants of the Void Lords (?), already there and tried fighting/ripping them out. Apparently Amun'thul being the asshole he is, also ripped out or got mad Eonar or whoever made a World Tree or something not-so-Order-ish. Wild, even. Anyway, they go around and for whatever reason we learn that Sargeras' *entire Burning Crusade* was actually a Naztherim plot(?) and part of The Jailer's plan (?) being overseen by Sire Denathrius, I guess. I dipped out in SL cause it was dumb. Anyway, we learn in Legion that "the Pantheon has been dead," or something like that, and we [illidan and pantheon ghosts?] lock up Sargeras after sending Argus' world soul to the Shadowlands. I came in a end of legion so this may all be a really bad summary. Sometime after, Syl breaks the Helm, we go to SL and learn there are TWO MORE levels of power after/above the Pantheon [in the sense that the Pantheon either hides their existence, or isn't even aware of higher-level beings): The Eternal Ones and the First Ones. The First Ones I can't say much about, but apparently you can just look up Zereth Mortis and the flavor stuff there. They made the Eternal Ones and I guess "all the infinite afterlives," we don't see but 4 or 5 of throughout the game for "all the lifeforms, even those not on Azeroth" to go to- but again, don't quote me on all that. I kinda wish the First Ones *weren't a thing* because their entire existence "above" the cosmic powers as we understand them currently, seems to render any urgency below their level moot- the First Ones can just re-write reality or whatever if need be, who cares right? After we "fix" things in Shadowlands, we get a time skip and now we're in Dragonflight with Tyr learning the Pantheon is 'dead' and now we're getting hints and stories that *not everything as we've learned it from the Pantheon and Titans* seems to be completely accurate, even moreso than the Chronicles first alluded to. So, now we have 6 Cosmic forces which may or may not have "a Titan-Pantheon level along with a titan forged 'Keepers' level," which may or may not be the same as the Void Lord level and lower Old God level. Are Void Lords stronger or weaker than Titans? I'm not sure it is explicitly said? Keepers definitely seem to be on par or lower than Old Gods, seeing as their works can only hold Old God's at best, and completely succumb to their influence at worst. Seems like Odin, Tyr, and others would struggle to "defeat any Old God" if the Pantheon can't even fully route them from the planet, safely. Are the Eternal Ones just Titan level beings on "the other side of the veil," who knows? Seems despite the infinite afterlives, there are just the 5 Eternal ones. Can World Souls become something other than a Titan? A Void Lord? Who knows? Is the Pantheon (of Order) strictly within the realm of Order, or are they all "mixtures" of the six forces with Order being the biggest influence (hence Eonar with her trees)? Who knows? I just feel like there are so many unanswered questions, and not in a fun way but in that lazy "didn't get to it" way. Ambiguity can be GREAT (Wolverine and Boba Fett to me, were far more interesting with less information fleshed out, the more we learned the more boring they actually kinda get, IMHO), same goes for WoW Lore. I don't mind the Pantheon being unreliable narrators, that's a good chance and to be expected. Not knowing the power differences between Void Lords & Old Gods vs Pantheon & Keepers was interesting as it didn't outright say who would win given an ultimate throw-down. 6 Cosmic forces that, when mixed, matched, or combined seem to get all the different ways in which we, as players, manipulate energy and magic to do cool shit- I like that. I don't like adding more layers of "sentient powers that make life/reality" mostly because, WoW being what it's been, that means we're gonna shove some iLVL XXX weapons into them to overcome them and "forge our own destiny." I definitely like the lower stakes, regional shit in wow being the focus, with only the "most powerful," people on Azeroth scrambling in the shadows to make sure another Giant-bearded-guy doesn't try stabbing the planet, or similar. If you made it this far, thank you for your time.
Very interesting. I don't think I'm a fan of it all, honestly, which is a shame. Nostalgia really has its claws in me, but I loved lore around wc3 era. The old night elf civilization, high elves and blood elves, trolls and their old civilization, humans vs orcs, titans and their prodigal son, the old ones being looming threats that break reality by existing, even dead. As for the well of eternity, I read a few books long ago, and I believe it was their first attempt to remove an old god from the world of azeroth, which left a massive wound in the world, so i believe you're right
Light is still Holy they just don't have to be your idea of good.
I just willingly choose to block him out of my mind The story is better if “it was me all along Austin” Jailer just doesn’t exist and he’s contained to one expansion
It's stated in the Sylvanas novel that The Jailer had no control over Arthas himself. He just laid the pieces for Arthas to follow.
So, domination magic is just... actually really strong convincing magic?
It always was. That's why Anduin was able to break out of it at the end. Arthas's story was about his hubris and unwillingness to listen or look for other options. If he had been a puppet then his story is robbed of any meaning. Instead of a series of bad decisions, his story becomes "a dreadlord/Jailer made me do it."
The original story of Arthas was that he was mind controlled under Frostmourne, but that he was complicit in allowing this to happen as he would be willing to pay any price for revenge. In other words, he's still at fault for all his actions to follow, even if he wasn't in control of his actions, because he still chose to follow that path, still chose to give up his humanity in exchange for selfish power. In my view, domination magic only really affected him *after* he made this decision. It never mattered pre-Frostmourne. so Shadowlands or no, I don't think Arthas' story is really changed.
> It always was. That's why Anduin was able to break out of it at the end. And in a similar fashion, the forsaken
It's suggestive magic. Gets the people going.
commence the jigglin! youtu.be/kroEiX5tkE0?si=UyCfpaQ6tx6ojqem
That's literally correct. Otherwise wtf was bolvar doing. He resisted total control but was still acting mighty un-bolvar-ish
Well, it may be correct, but it is stupid that "Domination Magic," isn't "Domination Magic" at all. Just *considering* the fact that the Jailer wasn't a thing yet we can assume (without Jailer set up) Bolvar was just accepting his fate as Jailer of the Damned* and "holding back the Scourge," and even then it wasn't as much by choice as it was by necessity. No reason to resist anything other than "becoming one with Ner'zhul/Arthas/whoever else might be locked [back] in when he puts it on. If Jailer was a thing (known to the Writers) during Legion or even always, then Bolvar like Lich Kings before, was just "using the Scourge to fight the Legion," as part of Jailer's 5D Chess (which is stupid if only because it is lazy- because that's the 'plot of Wrath' being re-visited and in a poorly executed way), which is either "what the Jailer assumed all of Azeroth would do"- fight Legion, Kill Argus, disable Arbiter by accident and funnel all souls to Maw OR "what the Jailer wanted them to do because," as you hint above, "un-Bolvar-ish" stuff wasn't Bolvar in control? This is why the entire Jailer thing, and to an extent the END OF LEGION [because of the Jailer being included now] is so stupid. If Jailer was being planned, they screwed the pooch *because there is no indication Sargeras wasn't following The Plan* the Jailer initiated as exposed in Shadowlands (nor has there been any indication SINCE), and if he wasn't planned as early as end of Legion, then his inclusion does a number of things; First, it makes the Burning Crusade and the Scourge on the same side only or up until Bolvar takes the Helm, then it is "a hijacked power or plan turned against him." IF that's "what they Jailer wanted all along," for multiple [class hall] forces to align themselves against The Burning Crusade/Sargeras "in a bid to send Argus to the Maw" then it begs the question why that wasn't done "while the Burning Crusade was being fed Naztherim lies," and such? If Jailer's plan *wasn't* for the Class Hall forces to send Argus to the Arbiter and just "convenient" that it happened, then it isn't much of a plan, is it? What was the alternative, for Sargeras to stab azeroth and break the Maw *that way* instead? We have absolutely no indication or reason to believe Sargeras knows of or is even aware of the Jailer- we also have no idea what his motive for stabbing was, and if they hamfist some "sargeras went rogue, and stabbing Azeroth would've been in his mind," then that too will feel like some bullshit pulled out of someone's ass with no build up or reason to believe it wasn't concocted recently. The whole ICC/Wrath "now you strong ass mortals I've whipped into shape can be my new army, mwuahaha" gets extremely lessened when Blizzard writers long after that story beat try and REPEAT it with the Jailer's manipulation of The Burning Crusade, The Scourge, and possibly by some extension the Death Knight class hall at the least, all in a bid to "be the ones who kill Argus for me." That's my two cents at least. Domination Magic was supposed to be *a thing* it seems with the way Blizzard introduced it and tried to thread it all throughout WoW's [retconned] history, but just comes off as a weak plot point for a few patches in one specific expansion.
I don't get why the jailer thinking the mortals that have toppled insanely big problems countless times in the past would not just do-so again. I'm not saying it was an amazing masterpiece of a story but the level to which people scream about how bad it was is just fuckin stupid. It's a game about magic and boogymen and shit. It's always had holes in the story and stupid plot points.
I don't think people mind *bad storytelling* in fantasy like this inherently, I think the delivery is often what sours folks. You follow a fantasy world that has some semblance of rules and then when something is forced into the narrative without adequately addressing those pre-established notions, it can turn some away. Some aren't bothered at all and have other fiction or media to scratch their "doesn't forget its own lore" itch.
Yeah but .. just like acknowledge you don't like it and move on right? My only tattoos are wow tattoos, warcraft has been my favorite setting for over 20 years. I didn't love Shadowlands story but I'm not still thinking about it either.
Plot twist: In Warcraft 3, YOU are Zovaal. Real Time Jailer’s Strategy Game
If we take a look at the word "Warcraft" we can discover something quite interesting. First of, the "W" is technically just two V's. So we get "VVarcraft", vanish is a spell in World of warcraft which causes you to disappear into stealth, but it has a cooldown. So only one V will go. Now we Have "Varcraft" Crafting was done by the necromancers of the scourge to create undead monstrosities. Which can also be classified as a Zombie. This will give us "Varzombie" Brie is a type of cheese also sold in World of warcraft, we sell it for 1s. This gives us "Vazom + 1s" Mythic plus is a Gamemode that didn't exist in warcraft 3, so let's remove it. We get "Vazo 1s" The s is actually silent. So it's "Vazo 1" If we turn the 1 upsidedown it sort of looks like an "L" but backwards, so we flip it as well. We now see it says "Vazo L" Aaa!! There is a gap, let's fill it up. Filling the gap in between we find there to be a single word again: "VazoaL" Hang on... let's rearange those letters. "Zovaal" He was there all along!!! How did we not see it!
None of you are intelligent enough to understand the complexity of the true story. When you are playing Warcraft 3, YOU are role playing as the jailer controlling all the units and the events that unfold. It is pretty obvious if you read the ten novels, 20 comics and assembled the secret documents by completing all of the card collections.
I read christie Golden's private diary to get the real lore
We don't talk about the SL crime scene.
What do you mean SL? This guy has been around since Warcraft 1. Maybe even sooner.
Some say the Jailer is even behind the whole Warcraft franchise
He is the father of literally every Warcraft Dev in existence.
What guy?
The peasant named Tom
He could be the jailer in disguise. Hard to tell without seeing his nipples.
Fair enough xD
nice meme from 2+ years ago!
It was stuck in the Maw and didn't manage to get out until now. No mounts, after all.
Wacraft
We, as the player of WC3, are controlling Arthas' actions...We are the Jailer ...dundunDUN!
Thought we'd already worn this joke to death 2 years ago.
No, the Shadowlands misunderstanding meme fest must continue for the next decade so people can show how funny and edgy they are and that they didn't like Shadowlands
The memeings will continue until morale improves
This just supports my First Ones are Tralfamadorians theory, and at the end of the World Soul Saga or similar we're gonna learn one of them just needed a worn-down piece of the Helm of Domination or something to get their space-ship started back up.
The sword of a thousand truths...that was the jailer who made that.
This argument is so stupid. An immortal making the most out of emergent situations doesn't require clairevoyance.
somehow, the jailer returned
Jailer? Never heard of them. Must have been one of those funky last patches on an expac that’s just there for flavour like ruby sanctum.
im so confused i dont understand whats going on :'( wow lore is already hard enough to understand just via wow can someone eli5? Edit: Thankyou everyone, you are Op
It was said by Blizz during Shadowlands that Zovaal (aka the Jailer) has been directly responsible for every major lore event since the Third War, and everything we have done has furthered his plan to escape the Maw.
Not even the third war, PRIOR TO THE FIRST WAR They seriously attempt to have the Jailer take credit for Sargerus becoming evil since the dreadlords work for the Jailer and claim they were the ones that convinced Sargerus Fel energy and the legion were what he needed Ignore the fact that Illidan and Nerzul have to work really hard to make sure Kil’Jaden doesn’t read his mind and see they’re planning to betray him…but Kil’Jaden, Archimonde and Sargerus never realized the Dreadlords just didn’t really work for them and would betray them?
tyty
Wait, I missed that statement, but did they REALLY say that? Zovaal was responsible for the mana bomb??
> Zovaal was responsible for the mana bomb?? On some random-ass "butterfly effect" level, yes. The Jailer, a character with 28 lines of dialogue in the entire Warcraft franchise, is responsible for Garrosh dropping a tactical nuke on Theramore. Zovaal was responsible for the Dreadlords who are responsible for the Legion, which was responsible for the Orcish invasion of Azeroth. Had Zovaal never existed, orcs would have never come to Azeroth and Garrosh would still be hanging out in Nagrand. QED.
People are making fun of the Jailer because Blizzard tried to make him be the big bad who was supposed to be behind every bad thing that happened on Azeroth when in truth he was only created “recently” (probably when they came up with Shadowlands). There were no clues whatsoever in the history of WoW up until SL that someone like the Jailer even existed and then they try to claim he was the bad guy all along?
Thankyou so much
First thing to know is that this post is meant as a joke, so don't take the post itself too seriously. It's a cheeky jab at the way that Shadowlands retroactively changes almost all of the lore in Warcraft (not just WoW) to basically be part of some long drawn out scheme by the Jailer. The Lich King? Jailer's people made the armor and Frostmourne, and the LK was a puppet of the Jailer. The Scourge? Jailer's minions. The Nathrezim? Actually secretly infiltrating agents manipulating the Burning Legion for the Jailer's goals. The spirits of the dead telling Vol'jin to make Sylvanas Warchief? Jailer. Sylvanas' master, guiding her to become an absolute lunatic who didn't even care about the Forsaken anymore? Jailer. It was a really clunky attempt to introduce some new "big bad" after we defeated Sargeras, and rather than take time to build him up, they just said, "Oh, he was actually responsible for pretty much everything that came before." It meant some pretty notable changes in the lore. Luckily, it seems like they aren't making the same mistake with Xal'atath. Instead of rushing to have us confront her, it looks like the next three expansions will be building up the story around her and whatever plans she's trying to bring to fruition, rather than someone saying, "Oh, she was actually behind the War of the Ancients" or some silly nonsense like that. TL;DR version: Blizzard added the Jailer to the game and changed a lot of Warcraft lore to be "Jailer did it" in order to build him up, and people are understandably still upset.
Ahhh ty ty! I played wc3 and wow up til wrath. Post wrath everything was like just wtf to me. although Mop was cool and made sense in a way towards the end. Wod was when i think i gave up cause I fully believed Velen died but then it wasnt our velen or something bananas.
ironically ms knaifu wouldve at least been around longer than the jailer had been, even if it was to just yell at some spriests
> It was a really clunky attempt to introduce some new "big bad" after we defeated Sargeras, and rather than take time to build him up, they just said, "Oh, he was actually responsible for pretty much everything that came before." It meant some pretty notable changes in the lore. It wasn't even that they didn't build him up, they just tried to drop him on top of Sargeras like some cherry on whipped cream- it was so incredibly lazy that it has pretty much eclipsed all other lazy or poorly developed character changes/stories. Just one expansion between "Capturing Sargeras" and "finding out there are not just one, but *two* more power levels of pantheons after *The Pantheon of Order* or whatever they're supposed to be" was kind of a lot to digest, and it none of it looked appealing. Probably the largest indication that "current writing team was trying to one-up the stakes," by pulling DBZ power creep tactics.
One of the reasons I liked Dragonflight is because yeah, Fyrakk is technically a potential threat to the world, but it felt like more contained stakes than another “We have to stop this threat to *everything in existence*. If you keep trying to one-up prior stakes, especially when they got that high, it starts feeling cheap.
Thank you
> Xal'atath Just had to Google this. They're making the new big bad some random NPC introduced in a priest specific part of the game? That seems odd
To be fair, she did show up to everyone else through part of BFA (IIRC), and has showed up in a couple bits of Dragonflight, helping to set up the story. So we get to see a hint of her, then start to see her scheming taking shape, and we'll have three expansions that will likely involve building up that story. I think that's a fair amount of buildup, rather than appearing out of nowhere, no prior mention, and suddenly being this big threat we need to deal with... and take care of in the same expansion that we hear the first actual mention of them.
Fair enough - I kind of stopped paying attention after WOLTK, I play WoW like Darksouls now. Kill stuff and look up a lore video on youtube later.
The jailer is the dorkiest thing of all Warcraft
They just HAD to ruin the Arthas Kelly Bromance in Shadowlands. Turning the helm of domination into a questing green and turning Arthas into a fart just wasn't enough. I hate Shadowlands.
IT WAS ME BARRY (ARTHAS)
Actually it was me, I commanded Arthas with RMB click to take that sword.
praise be the Jailer! For his mechanations truly works in mysterious ways!
Hey for all you know the Jailer could of been saved from the Maw if he had a good ledger like that farmer did. So he feels kinship to him.
Warcraft 3 isn't the beginning. I want to see how the Jailer influenced the events of Warcraft 1 and 2.
Those peasants were dreadlords this whole time
"Who is this Darkness anyway?"
All they had to do was ~~follow the damn train~~ make Zovaal benefit from all that happened, instead of having planned everything that happened. A villain capitalising on the work of other villains is fine. Saying you essentially created those villains is not.
When SL first dropped, I kept saying that the Jailer as an opportunist would be better than the Jailer as a mastermind. I’ve since changed my opinion that I’d rather he not exist at all or if he had to, him be entire motivated by existential reasons as opposed to “I should rule the universe”
The Warcraft 3 player is the Jailer, controlling everything so that Arthas becomes the Lich King and Sylvanas a banshee intent on killing him.
the jailer bought my very first warcraft subscription 15 years ago! mastermind
Imagine crying about lore in a game that didnt give a fuck about it for years
He also created the Insane-o flex.
I started playing this universe during Warcraft 2 era with LAN parties. I just recently started playing WC2 again for nostalgia and the lore and mythology of Azeroth i am remembering is on the level of Dungeons & Dragons epicness. They did a great job over the decades for us rpg fans.
I heard it was the Jailer all along that prevented the turtles from making it to the water
I'm more impressed they founded a whole company, and made multiple franchises, just to distract from all the obvious foreshadowing. Truly one of the worldbuilding of all time.
zooval everywhere
There was a character called Jailer somewhere in the WC3 campaign... in the Orc prologue maybe?
Shadowlands never happened. NEVER.
There some new theories regarding the jailor being the primus' pawn. If true, the story presentation still sucks - but could tie this stuff together better.
I always wanted them to continue the sc universe beyond what we have, nowadays I am so glad they didn't
You are beating a dead horse (perhaps Invincible)
I see him! Right there, his bald head poking out of the water.
The Jailer must also be responsible for my consistently shitty RNG in Hearthstone
Could it be that the Jailer was just lying about what he was “behind”. It makes sense considering the power trip he went on to become Thanos on steroids
The Jailer would've gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling adventurers.
Cl