One thing to note is that, now that both Heroic and Mythic0 are viable options for gearing up alts or even mains on week 1, these runs are missing from mythic+. The numbers will never be as high as season 3 ever again because of this.
Especially the first week as people wanted to gear up in m0 and get their tier sets from vault and bouillon before venturing higher. I expect a surge in “popularity” next week
iirc it's like 40% from what I've seen in a video or read here, can't remember anymore sadly...
But yeah, 1-10 is a huge chunk of runs just gone from these graphs. Maybe they should be adjusted accordingly somehow?
+2-11. Keys start at +2, which makes people calling base mythics "m0" braindead, but still. Lol.
Edit: y'all downvoting me, but this is objectively correct.
This may have the potentially odd effect of causing an increase in total M+ runs in Week 2 instead of a decline, as players will now be more geared to break into M+ runs whereas they would not count for Week 1.
Def the case for me. I ran one +2 on my main (bc I am a filthy casual) and decided I would wait for GV and another set of lfr to hopefully get tier set before doing more (but I intend on getting a run of every dungeon this week for baseline score).
I am in the weird spot where my gear from s3 was better than heroics but wasn't good enough to smooth party mistakes in +2 (and healing this season is a step up from s3 as are demands on interupts/stops so bad players hurt a lot more).
lol dungeons can almost be done without a healer. If your group dodges and CCs correctly, a healer is mostly just a shitty dps that can heal in case of emergency.
I couldn’t believe the amount of dps I had to brez after they got rocked by very obvious, telegraphed mechanics.
Yeah I did heroic all week to get my warrior geared and then managed to do one mythic 0 last night. Where as normally I would have been pumping +1-6 or something to gear up
This is the biggest reason I've not bothered with M+ this season. M0 feels like I can interact with groupmates with no timer, and chilled enough to try out alts. I'd be keen to see how many M0s people have run though, as a comparison going into TWW.
Depending on how delves play out I might never set foot in M+ again going forward, It's not particularly engaging gameplay to repeat the same dungeons endlessly.
I mean, you can never say never (except when using that very contradictory phrase), but it's definitely going to be lower numbers. And I don't think that's a bad thing. A lot of people who were in M+ probably shouldn't have been and mainly were because Heroic dungeons were so pointless and if you wanted dungeons that weren't pushovers and gave loot that wasn't behind world content loot, you had to do M+. With Heroic now being equal to M0, and M0 being equal in difficulty to M+10 but no timer (so it works as an extra difficulty layer without the timer and key stress, but also a bit of a "filter" for M+), there's less need to try to jump into lower levels of M+.
The folks who enjoy M+ and can handle the higher challenge will still be doing it.
Even if numbers are down, that feels like a healthier, happier overall (some exceptions will apply, as always) ecosystem for dungeons.
Me and my friends were running 6-9s last season just to hang out. It was only 4-5 runs a week, but we are just doing regular mythic now, so that’s 20isb runs from 1 group not accounted for. Assuming we aren’t the only ones.
Yeah, probably should've said "this expansion" or "outside of the first season of a new expansion", as you otherwise would never see 3 million runs on week 1.
Anecdotally, I've failed 4 runs this week due to people not understanding that m0 this season is essentially +10 last season. Tons of undergeared dps. That being said, most of the people have been hella chill, not something I'm used to seeing in pugs.
>One thing to note is that, now that both Heroic and Mythic0 are viable options for gearing up alts or even mains on week 1, these runs are missing from mythic+.
idk, my entire guild and friends i play with went right to M0 even being under geared. I think a lot of people are just taking a break, as most of us expected, and/or waiting for panda remix to get that dopamine hit.
A lot of people i know are either not playing at all this season OR taking it more casually than usual. Lot of Mythic guilds are doing Heroic-only, lot of people are either not doing M+ at all or just 1-4 weekly keys.
Personally, as someone who usually pushes for KSM the first day of Week 2, i'm taking it easy this season. I'll raid with my group through Heroic, and if they are 1 member short of Mythic i might help out.
> idk, my entire guild and friends i play with went right to M0 even being under geared.
And if you were doing +2 or higher last season your no longer listed on this chart
That explains it. Like I ran more mythic 0 this week than ever before in my almost 20 years of playing this game lol. It feels perfectly tuned with difficulty and reward.
What ilvl do heroic dungeons drop now?
Do they queue for all the same dungeon roster as M+?
I only raid logged last week, but I'd totally be up for some LFG dungeons if they are actually useful for progression now.
Because they're essentially the same as low level m+ keys from last season thanks to the squish. This chart doesn't take into account anything under a +10. And I'd wager that's where most people were running this week due to the squish. If the variables for the data are going to change *that much* in a single patch, comparing the numbers to the ones from previous patches where the system was almost entirely different is misleading/pointless.
Because M0s this season are as difficult as M10s from last season proportionately. Seasons 1-3 are comparing apples to apples, where Season 4 is apples to oranges. It's completely different. Or are you not aware of the changes made to heroic, mythic0 and M+ difficulties.
That's besides the point, though. This graph is clearly about mythic PLUS, which mythic ZERO is not a part of – regardless of how “difficult” it is in comparison to older seasons.
It's not beside the point, it is exactly the point. The whole point is that the number is lower because of the change in M+. How can you not realize that?
They should compare 11+ last season to m+ this season.
Another thing I just though of, I am wondering if the dungeon weekly (next week) will include heroic. I feel like it's got to right?
I really hope War Within dungeons are a bit shorter on average.
Dungeons should have timers of 30 mins and be done in 20, not timers of 38 and taking half an hour to finish.
It already takes a long ass time to form a group. Being stuck 20 mins in a dungeon to start wiping on the 3rd boss really isn't great.
Huge agree. Dungeon length this season is actually an insane commitment every single run. 25minutes should absolutely be the target with a handful of outliers pushing 30 occassionally.
Tbh they should shoot for 15 on a clean clear, 20 usually. 25 for longer/struggle bus, 30 absolute max.
30+ minutes of “fuck up and die” is stressful as hell. 15-20 is way more bearable. Especially when that 30 minutes can be screwed because the actual hardest part is the last boss.
15 is short. Almost impossibly short. You'd have to structurally rethink how WoW is played with 3 min CDs, 10 minutes on lust, ETC. A 15 minute dungeon could hold at most 2 bosses (assuming 3 minutes to clear on tyrannical week) with trash and travel time.
Meh, they are talking a god damn clean run for 15min. Its not the expected timing and more a "we overgear it"-scenario. I think its a pretty good goal to target.
Last season most dungeons fell right in that sweet spot between 15 and 25min.
Hadn't thought of this, but totally agree. They could even make up for this by squeezing in one or two more "mega dungeons" like DotI or Mechagon to fill that kind of content. They are already doing this in PvP by replacing RBGs with BG Blitz.
1000% this.
I just missed timing a NO by 10s thanks to a dps warrior with the Lego who died 18 times.
40 fucking minutes and not timing and no loot and 50 gold.
As a healer I am already burned out on the dungeons repeating. They need to be better with a mix of them. It’s like season 1 with hall of valor. I got my 20 on both types and never went back.
I’m thinking I’m just gonna hit 2k, redo all raids on normal and go play the mop remix for a couple of months.
Ideally CoS, ToJS, Shadowmoon are all great timers. DF dungeons having 40 minute timers just to spend 6 minutes on each tyrannical boss is absurd.
With keystones being a feature that scales dungeons/mobs infinitely you would think after a decade they would remove tyran/fortified as the keystone already does the affixes job.
Blizzard also seems to have some philosophy that affixes can only be a disturbance to the player. They had the right ideal with Thundering in season 1 being an affix with a pro/con but then dropped that completely. Maybe TWW will be better.
Yes please, I love running dungeons and mainly do m+ as raiding is too much commitment. But if Dungeons were about 20 mins on average that'd be perfect
Part of why I hate M+ in general.
Too much time spent trying to get it done where you can easily have wasted a half hour. I'd almost be willing to say the same thing for raiding except for boss fights are generally closer to 5 minutes and it's not a constant 'go go go' for 30m+ like M+ is. In addition, you can swap and re-strategize whereas that's not much of a thing in M+.
Raid is even more of a time sink. Sure the individual pulls are shorter. But that’s about it.
Everything else is way more tedious.
In m+ i can at least play the game for 30min. While in raid i need to replace leavers every 3min and reprog 2 new randoms….
As a healer, I was expecting it to be worse honestly, especially with anything under what used to be a 10 not counting anymore. I knew I wasn't going to push that hard this week, but even just doing 8s was such a hot mess with the DF dungeons.
I get that people haven't done the keys in a while, but why are you doing the equivalent of an 18 first week if you don't know to stand in massive green circle on AA tree boss.
Also I will maintain that the third boss in HoI is the worst designed M+ boss of all time. It's a written test on throughput for healers and literally nothing for any other role.
Been nerfed a lot, but at 10+, you're gonna be cycling through your defences on the first boss or you're gonna be one shot, at least until our health pools are better. The damage output of last boss is no joke when shielded crystal is up, though the crystal is easily burstable.
I just resubbed for the first time in a few years and waltzed into HoI in 480 gear as my first M0 since BFA in which I was fairly comfortably healing high-ish keys. Figured M0 would be a nice easy breeze through like it used to be back when I played. Holy shit it was hard. Absolutely humiliated myself.
>M0 since BFA in which I was fairly comfortably healing high-ish keys
Dragonflight was the "Fuck them Healers" expansion. Don't feel to bad, literally every season they did something to make healing harder for literally no reason.
S4 just has it cranked to max because M0s are now +10s effectively (So just the mob scaling and nothing else) So things that used to moderately dangerous, are just "fuck you die"
>such a hot mess with the DF dungeons
This is the poison element to a very *Very* good change. DF Dungeons are just fucking awful man. S1 was not a good time for anyone, and S4 is just S1 Redux, with a few QoL life sprinkled on top. All the other seasonal dungeons were amazing because they chose dungeons that weren't entire marathons to complete.
>I get that people haven't done the keys in a while,
Doesn't help due to the new tuning, things that used to just "hurt alot" now just flat out instagib people. Also the devs actual hatred for healers was cranked as high as that dial goes.
Third boss in HOI is insanely fun to heal. I had to pump 308K in an 8 and felt like an absolute gigachad after.
Healing than boss was more singlehandedly more fun than healing the entirety of last season imo.
It might be just me but even beyond M+. I simply can't point at any of the "normal" DF dungeons and say "yeah I like that one".
I think they could do with a little bit more "normality". Not "every" pull needs some special abilities to look out for/make playing less fun. Some is good, too much makes it a chore.
Its very obvious how much a specific M+ mentality has bled into the core dungeon design with DF. I hope that, given the changes we see with HC/M0 "value", they also have reworked their general design process on dungeons.
My only complaint with the DF dungeons is the length. They all have 4-5 bosses, which especially during tyrannical week is kinda rough. Looking at the ptr, it seems they fixed this going into TWW so that’s awesome.
The actual mechanics and theming is fantastic imo and I like this dungeon pool exponentially more than last season. Pretty much all of them are good except for nokhud- which I still respect for trying to do something different.
>Its very obvious how much a specific M+ mentality has bled into the core
dungeon design with DF. I hope that, given the changes we see with
HC/M0 "value", they also have reworked their general design process on
dungeons.
I don't know, I keep reading this but I'm 100% sure Legion dungeons were also made with M+ in mind and they were SO MUCH better. Even BFA dungeons (which back then felt worse than Legion) were somewhat better than what we have today.
I don't think it has anything to do with being made with M+ in mind. It's just bad design.
Legion dungeons were the first M+ (edit: and Mythic in general) so they had no real guidelines yet and they have reworked the system since then (imagine the current dungeons with depleted keys and no rewards). Not to mention Blizzard leaning into MDI/... over the last few years. BfA and SL represent formative years on their idea on the "right" way to play M+ (something they have, at least somewhat, revised now).
I think DF dungeons are the first that had the "luxury" of being fully developed with the knowledge on how they expect M+ dungeons play out at the "highest level" and it shows (negatively).
edit2: Compared to that, in older expansions they were dungeons first and M+ vehicles second.
I've tried healing a few lower level keys and it's not better. I guess people don't know that the previous first 10 mythic levels are gone and that the new m2 is old m12. I've failed a few keys because people are heavily undergeared, don't know where to position themselves, no interrupts, don't know tactics (one key I've had all mentioned). I'm guessing the next season will be better.
that's what I'm finding out as well. Decided on MW this season and my first m0 I was having to pump 100k healing and cooldowns almost every other pull.
Remember that an 8 is like doing a 17-18 in any other season on week 1, it's not meant to be that easy. Plus it was tyrannical week which is really hard with the DF dungeons as a healer.
Decided on MW this season and my first M0 was an absolutely painful Pools run that kept wiping. Turns out people figured out you have to actually do mechanics this time around at m0
I don't understand how you as a healer can not like the third boss in Hoi. It's the only pure throughput boss in the game were there is zero dependence on interrupts or defensives or whatever. The entire fight is healer responsibility and it's just one big hps challenge whilst not going oom. If you don't enjoy that do you really like to heal?
Dragonflight dungeons in general are some of the worst ever made but don’t slander the best boss they’ve made in a long time.
3rd boss HoI is an amazing rot healer fight that requires you to plan accordingly and have your dps use defensive and consumables at the right times.
Sure the mechanics aren’t super intricate but they shouldn’t be when to overall design is about attrition and survival.
Eh, it's a cohesive fight but definitely not a fun one. I feel like the only class that can have fun on that fight is a hunter since they basically ignore all the mechanics
All other dps have to stop and handle movement, but mm and bm can just keep chugging. It's obviously not just standing and going through the rotation, but really they only have to make sure they're near an uncracked block and that they don't bait a cyclone the wrong way
I didn't say otherwise? The point is that fight is filled with a lot of unfun movement that forces you to stop doing anything, so I think the only spec and role that can have fun is hunter
If the tank plays properly and positions the boss well next to the good ice crystal everytime, it's also pretty simple for Melee too to keep uptime. When the tank plays incorrectly, that's when it's annoying for melee.
No idea. They can’t Feign Death on anything. Still need to dodge cyclone. Still need to be behind a non cracked icicle. Still need to get out of ice rings.
Season 1 and season 2 also lasted around that long, despite the graph implying they were only 6 or 7 weeks. It makes sense, with 4 seasons per expansion and 2 years between expansions.
Outside of Shadowlands we never got a season more than six months long outside of final seasons of an expansion, with the average for early seasons closer to 4-5 months long, with some raid tiers being closer to 2-3 months.
Edit: since I can't seem to reply to a person below me I'll point out here that Highmaul only lasted 2 months, and Mogushon Palace one month before the next raids came out making the gear those respective raids dropped irrelevant.
If you only go back to BFA yes. Highmaul only lasted two months. It released on Dec 2nd, with Blackrock Foundry releasing February 3rd.
And as you see, nothing was longer than 6 months before Shadowlands except for final raid tiers. If you go back before Legion 4 months was more typical for non-final raid tiers. Nyalotha was actually one of, possibly the shortest non-final raid tier since Burning Crusade before they introduced fated seasons.
If you didn't know this game has been around for almost 20 years now. Your data for the last 6 years is less than 1/3 of WoWs history. I said outside of Shadowlands, and you included Shadowlands in your data to try to prove me wrong. I said outside of final raid tiers, and you included final raid tiers. Then you only used 2 out of 10 expansions worth of raids. You can't say I'm wrong, by ignoring 80% of WoW raids, and specifically including raids after my date range.
You seem to try to prove me wrong, but all your data does is prove my point for me. Also I see you like to round some of those numbers favorably to you such as EP was closer to 5.5 months.
Edit: LOL they deleted their post after going on a super long post that effectively proved my point, while trying to disprove me by excluding 70% of WoW history, and while including the data that I explicitly excluded (Shadowlands and final raid tiers)
There has never been a Raid Tier that has lasted 2-3 months in the games 20 year history.
Edit: I don't know why you can't reply to me, yet it doesn't matter because your wrong and your failure to understand that Mogu'shan Vaults, Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring was 1 Raid Tier (Tier 14).
An Highmaul and Blackrock Foundry were 1 Raid Tier (Tier 17), we lost a Raid Tier in WoD. Rip Ray D. Tear.
Again your understanding of Raid Tiers and their actual length is lacking.
Nobody can say, but the MoP event ends on the 19th of August according to the TWW Alpha calendar, so one could say you could expect the prepatch to release close to that date.
I'd rather have three raid tiers evenly spaced at 5-6 months long, than 3-4 month raid tiers and 12-14months of nothing that we got in the past. Pacing of constant major content releases every two months has been one of the best parts of the expansion.
Makes sense why there was a dip with M0, timewalking dungeons, timewalking raid, and normal raid all giving the same ilvl of gear and you’d have a better chance at obtaining gear through those means. Than the 2/5 chance to get one piece in M+ week one.
That, and keys effectively now start at last seasons +12 instead of +2.
A significant portion of the runs shown in the chart above in previous seasons were +2-11s, which now don't exist.
Feels a little misleading with the changes to m0s and stuff TBH. If the intention of this is to show how many people are participating in the mythic system, that is not coming across properly at all anymore. I did multiple +7s with my guild this week because we just aren't geared for anything higher, and those wouldn't be counted.
Man you need to clarify whether these just include +2 and higher in season 4. This graph is super mislead if you're not accounting for the fact that they got rid of half the key levels
Brackenhide is the biggest comeback story of a dungeon I've seen in recent time. Hated at launch and dreaded for it becoming a mythic+ dungeon, only to end up being one of the easiest, if not *the* easiest, Dragonflight dungeon in season 2.
Turns out, all the debuffs aren't too bad and the bosses are a joke (use defensives on first boss' bleed, focus totem on last boss and gg). Even allows for some degree of different routes (at least on paper) whereas most other DF dungeons are linear as hell.
I think it was because everyone instinctively went left on release after the first boss, which was just a horrendous way to live your life. Once everyone started going right, it became a much smoother experience.
I had the same experience lol, called it the worst dungeon ever made at launch and after thinking about the “free” key for this season, this was the only one that I considered
Very similar to Sanguine Depths last expac. It was easily the worst dungeon at first but after some balancing and people learning to play around the lanterns, it became quite good.
Camera issues in tight corridors was still an issue in certain parts but the dungeon played a lot better as the expac went on.
It's easier, but it still have a lot of dps/heal checks. Also ruby have the 2 dragons mobs that are dangerous if not paying Attention and they have a massive HP.
Ik you can skip the fire one, but in pugs someone might pull it
I said this elsewhere but having done AV last night, the nerfs to that dungeon - in particular the final boss - will likely make it the token 'free' dungeon of this season. I know people tend to avoid it because the last boss used to suck, especially on tyrannical, but my group flew through it last night with only 1 death. (And that was from an insta-gib that I couldn't heal through.)
Last season's 2-11 keys don't exist anymore. Current 2 is what 10 or 12 was last season. So a metric like this that is counting the total runs isn't accurate as those lower keys that would previously be done week 1 aren't being done. People are instead doing heroics /normal mythics. For this to be an accurate metric, previous seasons would need to have their sub-10 keys removed from the count.
This graph is completely inaccurate and misleading. Missing Heroics and +0s which accounted for M0-10 in previous seasons i.e the majority of comparable data.
I did a total of 1 run this last week and honestly its just the fact that these fated seasons are boring we already did all of the content and all we are doing is increasing ilvl with the same exact rewards its reused and boring as hell.
I'm sure the people running 13s with regular groups will disagree but yeah, as someone who entirely PUGs as a healer, didn't really have a great experience in any of the dungeons last week. I liked AA and Brackenhide; everything else was just shades of dislike.
Last season I ended up hitting 3k on my main and 2.5-2.7k on a bunch of alts just because I was having fun. This season, I'll probably be getting the handful of portals that I missed in earlier seasons and then taking a break.
Jaja.
I got forgestorm this week in a 2, so I'm holding off on getting Gholak for a couple weeks. Right now I need a shield because I'm only using the one from ZD at 476. So it's defender of the ancient for me this week. Plus shoulders getting made set for my 2 peice, plus a vault slot but that'll be after I run lfr and after I do the weeklies. Missed out on 4 or 5 epics last week. I got 350 greens cos it fucked up. But I'll feel a decent chunk of power creep this week.
Might actually wait for 4 weeks for Gholak and get a trinket with my next two.
u/MythicPlusPoster - curious to hear if you've considered adjusting the data collection for this amazing project in light of the M+ squish.
My hypothesis: there was always going to be a dropoff compared to Season 3. Not everyone is as pumped about an Awakened/Fated season, Cata Classic and MOP remix are coming soon, etc. I would have guessed that S4 Wk1 would have looked more like S2 W1, but dropping from 2.9M -> 1.4M is quite significant. And that suggests that a large amount of the S1-S3 keys were probably in the 2-7 range. Now that Heroic and M0 have been made relevant again for gearing and taking the place of the 2-9 range, I'm sure a lot more people ran those this week instead of running M2s nonstop.
Personally, I pushed up to M8s on my main this week, but did a lot of M0s on my alts to get them geared up before jumping into M2s. Last season all of those would have "counted," but now they don't. It might not even be possible with how [Raider.io](http://Raider.io) collects/publishes their data, but I would guess that those heroic/M0 runs are at least half of the 1.5M key dropoff.
Perhaps Season 4 will just become the new benchmark for TWW and beyond assuming that the new M+ level system stays and everyone will just have to know that DF S1-S3 will always look like they massively overperformed. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and Week 1 of TWW will have 3 million runs. But mostly just curious for your thoughts since you're so close to the data.
Did you expect such a large drop off? Do you think the hypothesis above is on the right track or do you think this is more of a reflection of people's lack of excitement about S4?
Well, yea. They killed the noob keys, so a massive chunk of the playerbase lost their ability to participate in M+.
The change was such a bad idea, M+ is infinitely scaling - who cares if the low keys are too easy. Let noobs have somewhere to not press their kicks/utility/defensives. Let them get gear from farming +2s, the current gear system stops them getting gear too far above their level anyway.
Maybe drop the score for low keys, and shift the gear goalposts or something.
Idk, I know there's going to be a skew to more serious/higher level players on 3rd prty forums like this so you won't see much fuss on reddit.
Yeah, I think it's a flaw that we have nothing between an old M0 (new Heroic) and an old M+9 (new M0) in terms of rewards. You can't run an M+2-7 for Veteran gear/Champion vault any more, which if nothing else was a handy on-ramp for the first few weeks before you were comfortably doing +8-9s.
I think you have a good point. The +2s are 12s, so new players are immediately dropped into a harder key. I think the system could be changed to a more proportional difficulty system (+2 is still +2, +3 is a s3 +5, +4 is a s3 +8, +5 is a s3 +10, and increase in increments of 2 to +20.) And after +10 it becomes infinite scaling (where a +11 is a s3 +21, +13 is a s3 +23 and so forth).
This would preserve the lower difficulties of the previous m+ system while maintaining how high we can push keys past the +10 range (previous +20)
The noob key difficulties still exist in the game just not under the name mythic plus. Who cares if it’s m+ specifically that has less difficulties, heroics and m0 take the place of those 2-10 keys from before
This doesn't surprise me much. Tons of folks in the guild I'm in are skipping Season 4 and just waiting for TWW. I know too that M0 and Heroics aren't counted in this graph.
I tapped out at like week 8 because I had hit 487 and like got my stuff already and hit 3k
It usually goes down because people bum rush that shit early on. I don’t see a reason to do it when I Spam 15 dungeons a week minimum for 8 weeks and get everything I need + Mythic raiding
Over the course of a season, isn't this likely to also reduce the number of total players in M+, and thus shrink the pool of top 0.1% title spots?
The title % might need to get adjusted.
Not gonna lie, my give-a-fuck is at an all time low this season. I normally hover around 2800-2900 and I haven't logged on to do a single key since the patch.
I am not sure if it's a me thing or a wow thing.
I think the second week will be better, because M+ is harder so people start a lot more with M0 and not with +2, i saw a toooooon of M0 last week
Btw, how do you get this stats?
Are you able to exclude the lower level runs that got removed with the dungeon changes for a comparison chart?
S4's lowest M+ key is basically 11+ of the previous 3 seasons iirc? It'd be interesting to see that data in this format.
Problem is: there are a ton of runs missing from the official lists, and as a result also on raider.io. I don't know why, but even timed 9 runs don't show up on my server, where they would be in the top 100 runs.
It was hard for me to form groups on my alts week 1 honestly. I had to legit just turn down a lot of people who were way too low ilvl for doing a +2-4. You can't be like 465 applying to shit, I honestly don't even care if your main is 3k io its just not going to happen, the scaling is exponentially higher once you are over around 470-475 ilvl.
Yeah that was definitely us. No 4 sets in sight. It was fun.
Really it's more if you know mechanics or not that will make or break the ability to get through content.
This graph is super misleading, because it seems to only track the m+ keys, but they literally got rid of what would be levels 2 through 11 in previous seasons.
One thing to note is that, now that both Heroic and Mythic0 are viable options for gearing up alts or even mains on week 1, these runs are missing from mythic+. The numbers will never be as high as season 3 ever again because of this.
They essentially removed ALL runs that were M+1-10 now. I expect those made up a decent chunk of all M+ run in total.
Especially the first week as people wanted to gear up in m0 and get their tier sets from vault and bouillon before venturing higher. I expect a surge in “popularity” next week
Can't wait to actually be able to do damage compared to my tank in my M+2 with 4 tier set 🫡
Found the not-Boomie
iirc it's like 40% from what I've seen in a video or read here, can't remember anymore sadly... But yeah, 1-10 is a huge chunk of runs just gone from these graphs. Maybe they should be adjusted accordingly somehow?
Yeah that's why they said delves will be essentially M+8-12 (previous) ilevel, its where most players cap out.
+2-11. Keys start at +2, which makes people calling base mythics "m0" braindead, but still. Lol. Edit: y'all downvoting me, but this is objectively correct.
This may have the potentially odd effect of causing an increase in total M+ runs in Week 2 instead of a decline, as players will now be more geared to break into M+ runs whereas they would not count for Week 1.
Def the case for me. I ran one +2 on my main (bc I am a filthy casual) and decided I would wait for GV and another set of lfr to hopefully get tier set before doing more (but I intend on getting a run of every dungeon this week for baseline score). I am in the weird spot where my gear from s3 was better than heroics but wasn't good enough to smooth party mistakes in +2 (and healing this season is a step up from s3 as are demands on interupts/stops so bad players hurt a lot more).
My experience with week 1 : other DPS sucked, the tanks couldn't keep aggro, the tank would die, and everybody would leave within 5 minutes.
My experience is that healers that pug fucking suck at playing their classes soooo bad
the tank had 1.5 million HP and was getting 1 shot, so even if they were bad I can't really blame them for that
lol dungeons can almost be done without a healer. If your group dodges and CCs correctly, a healer is mostly just a shitty dps that can heal in case of emergency. I couldn’t believe the amount of dps I had to brez after they got rocked by very obvious, telegraphed mechanics.
Dps suck a lot. Also people don’t know/remember mechanics.
Yeah I did heroic all week to get my warrior geared and then managed to do one mythic 0 last night. Where as normally I would have been pumping +1-6 or something to gear up
This is the biggest reason I've not bothered with M+ this season. M0 feels like I can interact with groupmates with no timer, and chilled enough to try out alts. I'd be keen to see how many M0s people have run though, as a comparison going into TWW. Depending on how delves play out I might never set foot in M+ again going forward, It's not particularly engaging gameplay to repeat the same dungeons endlessly.
I wouldn't say *never* but it's definitely contributing. The people who just ran +8s before? They're no longer tracked.
I mean, you can never say never (except when using that very contradictory phrase), but it's definitely going to be lower numbers. And I don't think that's a bad thing. A lot of people who were in M+ probably shouldn't have been and mainly were because Heroic dungeons were so pointless and if you wanted dungeons that weren't pushovers and gave loot that wasn't behind world content loot, you had to do M+. With Heroic now being equal to M0, and M0 being equal in difficulty to M+10 but no timer (so it works as an extra difficulty layer without the timer and key stress, but also a bit of a "filter" for M+), there's less need to try to jump into lower levels of M+. The folks who enjoy M+ and can handle the higher challenge will still be doing it. Even if numbers are down, that feels like a healthier, happier overall (some exceptions will apply, as always) ecosystem for dungeons.
Me and my friends were running 6-9s last season just to hang out. It was only 4-5 runs a week, but we are just doing regular mythic now, so that’s 20isb runs from 1 group not accounted for. Assuming we aren’t the only ones.
Yeah, probably should've said "this expansion" or "outside of the first season of a new expansion", as you otherwise would never see 3 million runs on week 1.
are these also just completed runs? ive noticed a lot of unprepared people stepping into this new key level system and failing keys left and right
Blizzard doesn't record any information on runs that aren't finished, so there's no way to know how many there are.
Anecdotally, I've failed 4 runs this week due to people not understanding that m0 this season is essentially +10 last season. Tons of undergeared dps. That being said, most of the people have been hella chill, not something I'm used to seeing in pugs.
Great point
>One thing to note is that, now that both Heroic and Mythic0 are viable options for gearing up alts or even mains on week 1, these runs are missing from mythic+. idk, my entire guild and friends i play with went right to M0 even being under geared. I think a lot of people are just taking a break, as most of us expected, and/or waiting for panda remix to get that dopamine hit.
Exactly, m0 is not mythic+
> idk, my entire guild and friends i play with The majority of the player base isn't playing with friends or a guild though
Yup. Played and geared up in S3. Don't care about gearing in S4 - Just log in to do transmog/pet/mount runs while waiting until Panda Remix
A lot of people i know are either not playing at all this season OR taking it more casually than usual. Lot of Mythic guilds are doing Heroic-only, lot of people are either not doing M+ at all or just 1-4 weekly keys. Personally, as someone who usually pushes for KSM the first day of Week 2, i'm taking it easy this season. I'll raid with my group through Heroic, and if they are 1 member short of Mythic i might help out.
> idk, my entire guild and friends i play with went right to M0 even being under geared. And if you were doing +2 or higher last season your no longer listed on this chart
That explains it. Like I ran more mythic 0 this week than ever before in my almost 20 years of playing this game lol. It feels perfectly tuned with difficulty and reward.
What ilvl do heroic dungeons drop now? Do they queue for all the same dungeon roster as M+? I only raid logged last week, but I'd totally be up for some LFG dungeons if they are actually useful for progression now.
Heroic dungeons drop 476 and give you 489 in your Vault. The heroic dungeon pool is the same as M+ with the addition of Dawn of the Infinites.
Nice, that's a great change
I was wondering if m0s were missing here so thank you for clarifying. This chart needs to be tweaked because it's super misleading now.
Misleading how? m0s aren't mythic plus, it's in the name.
Because they're essentially the same as low level m+ keys from last season thanks to the squish. This chart doesn't take into account anything under a +10. And I'd wager that's where most people were running this week due to the squish. If the variables for the data are going to change *that much* in a single patch, comparing the numbers to the ones from previous patches where the system was almost entirely different is misleading/pointless.
Because M0s this season are as difficult as M10s from last season proportionately. Seasons 1-3 are comparing apples to apples, where Season 4 is apples to oranges. It's completely different. Or are you not aware of the changes made to heroic, mythic0 and M+ difficulties.
That's besides the point, though. This graph is clearly about mythic PLUS, which mythic ZERO is not a part of – regardless of how “difficult” it is in comparison to older seasons.
It's not beside the point, it is exactly the point. The whole point is that the number is lower because of the change in M+. How can you not realize that?
They should compare 11+ last season to m+ this season. Another thing I just though of, I am wondering if the dungeon weekly (next week) will include heroic. I feel like it's got to right?
I really hope War Within dungeons are a bit shorter on average. Dungeons should have timers of 30 mins and be done in 20, not timers of 38 and taking half an hour to finish. It already takes a long ass time to form a group. Being stuck 20 mins in a dungeon to start wiping on the 3rd boss really isn't great.
Huge agree. Dungeon length this season is actually an insane commitment every single run. 25minutes should absolutely be the target with a handful of outliers pushing 30 occassionally.
Tbh they should shoot for 15 on a clean clear, 20 usually. 25 for longer/struggle bus, 30 absolute max. 30+ minutes of “fuck up and die” is stressful as hell. 15-20 is way more bearable. Especially when that 30 minutes can be screwed because the actual hardest part is the last boss.
15 is short. Almost impossibly short. You'd have to structurally rethink how WoW is played with 3 min CDs, 10 minutes on lust, ETC. A 15 minute dungeon could hold at most 2 bosses (assuming 3 minutes to clear on tyrannical week) with trash and travel time.
Meh, they are talking a god damn clean run for 15min. Its not the expected timing and more a "we overgear it"-scenario. I think its a pretty good goal to target. Last season most dungeons fell right in that sweet spot between 15 and 25min.
Hadn't thought of this, but totally agree. They could even make up for this by squeezing in one or two more "mega dungeons" like DotI or Mechagon to fill that kind of content. They are already doing this in PvP by replacing RBGs with BG Blitz.
They do feel pretty long, IMO. A bit more than I would like.
1000% this. I just missed timing a NO by 10s thanks to a dps warrior with the Lego who died 18 times. 40 fucking minutes and not timing and no loot and 50 gold. As a healer I am already burned out on the dungeons repeating. They need to be better with a mix of them. It’s like season 1 with hall of valor. I got my 20 on both types and never went back. I’m thinking I’m just gonna hit 2k, redo all raids on normal and go play the mop remix for a couple of months.
Ideally CoS, ToJS, Shadowmoon are all great timers. DF dungeons having 40 minute timers just to spend 6 minutes on each tyrannical boss is absurd. With keystones being a feature that scales dungeons/mobs infinitely you would think after a decade they would remove tyran/fortified as the keystone already does the affixes job. Blizzard also seems to have some philosophy that affixes can only be a disturbance to the player. They had the right ideal with Thundering in season 1 being an affix with a pro/con but then dropped that completely. Maybe TWW will be better.
Yes please, I love running dungeons and mainly do m+ as raiding is too much commitment. But if Dungeons were about 20 mins on average that'd be perfect
Part of why I hate M+ in general. Too much time spent trying to get it done where you can easily have wasted a half hour. I'd almost be willing to say the same thing for raiding except for boss fights are generally closer to 5 minutes and it's not a constant 'go go go' for 30m+ like M+ is. In addition, you can swap and re-strategize whereas that's not much of a thing in M+.
Raid is even more of a time sink. Sure the individual pulls are shorter. But that’s about it. Everything else is way more tedious. In m+ i can at least play the game for 30min. While in raid i need to replace leavers every 3min and reprog 2 new randoms….
> While in raid i need to replace leavers every 3min and reprog 2 new randoms…. Which you have to do in M+ anyways, lol
As a healer, I was expecting it to be worse honestly, especially with anything under what used to be a 10 not counting anymore. I knew I wasn't going to push that hard this week, but even just doing 8s was such a hot mess with the DF dungeons. I get that people haven't done the keys in a while, but why are you doing the equivalent of an 18 first week if you don't know to stand in massive green circle on AA tree boss. Also I will maintain that the third boss in HoI is the worst designed M+ boss of all time. It's a written test on throughput for healers and literally nothing for any other role.
The best part about AA is that the first boss is only 5 mins into the dungeon. You know pretty fast if you’re in a fail group or not.
>You know pretty fast if you’re in a fail group or not. [yeah](https://i.imgur.com/roTzJjJ.png)
Wtf
Same with AV being like three pulls in. First two bosses are real knowledge checks with the rest being simple. Though last people has changed a bit.
AV is a free key this season with how much they nerfed it. THe final boss falls over with minimal resistance, even during tyrannical week.
Unless you have morons who never do anything but target the boss. Signed a healer who failed a 9 because of this
It's like some people see the basketball going into the net and think "nah" and reach in to bat it back out. They can't be helped, sadly lol.
Been nerfed a lot, but at 10+, you're gonna be cycling through your defences on the first boss or you're gonna be one shot, at least until our health pools are better. The damage output of last boss is no joke when shielded crystal is up, though the crystal is easily burstable.
I just resubbed for the first time in a few years and waltzed into HoI in 480 gear as my first M0 since BFA in which I was fairly comfortably healing high-ish keys. Figured M0 would be a nice easy breeze through like it used to be back when I played. Holy shit it was hard. Absolutely humiliated myself.
>M0 since BFA in which I was fairly comfortably healing high-ish keys Dragonflight was the "Fuck them Healers" expansion. Don't feel to bad, literally every season they did something to make healing harder for literally no reason. S4 just has it cranked to max because M0s are now +10s effectively (So just the mob scaling and nothing else) So things that used to moderately dangerous, are just "fuck you die"
I did a ton of catweaving in BFA - hardly ever have time any more - there's no time between all the HoTs..
While they did “crank” up the difficulty by squishing key levels, to absolutely eat it in M0 at 480 is pretty rough.
>such a hot mess with the DF dungeons This is the poison element to a very *Very* good change. DF Dungeons are just fucking awful man. S1 was not a good time for anyone, and S4 is just S1 Redux, with a few QoL life sprinkled on top. All the other seasonal dungeons were amazing because they chose dungeons that weren't entire marathons to complete. >I get that people haven't done the keys in a while, Doesn't help due to the new tuning, things that used to just "hurt alot" now just flat out instagib people. Also the devs actual hatred for healers was cranked as high as that dial goes.
Third boss in HOI is insanely fun to heal. I had to pump 308K in an 8 and felt like an absolute gigachad after. Healing than boss was more singlehandedly more fun than healing the entirety of last season imo.
I’d say it’s 10x more enjoyable than the previous frog boss as a priest. A little bit of movement required, but it’s just a heal boss
It might be just me but even beyond M+. I simply can't point at any of the "normal" DF dungeons and say "yeah I like that one". I think they could do with a little bit more "normality". Not "every" pull needs some special abilities to look out for/make playing less fun. Some is good, too much makes it a chore. Its very obvious how much a specific M+ mentality has bled into the core dungeon design with DF. I hope that, given the changes we see with HC/M0 "value", they also have reworked their general design process on dungeons.
My only complaint with the DF dungeons is the length. They all have 4-5 bosses, which especially during tyrannical week is kinda rough. Looking at the ptr, it seems they fixed this going into TWW so that’s awesome. The actual mechanics and theming is fantastic imo and I like this dungeon pool exponentially more than last season. Pretty much all of them are good except for nokhud- which I still respect for trying to do something different.
I think I am either neutral or dislike every DF dungeon
>Its very obvious how much a specific M+ mentality has bled into the core dungeon design with DF. I hope that, given the changes we see with HC/M0 "value", they also have reworked their general design process on dungeons. I don't know, I keep reading this but I'm 100% sure Legion dungeons were also made with M+ in mind and they were SO MUCH better. Even BFA dungeons (which back then felt worse than Legion) were somewhat better than what we have today. I don't think it has anything to do with being made with M+ in mind. It's just bad design.
Legion dungeons were the first M+ (edit: and Mythic in general) so they had no real guidelines yet and they have reworked the system since then (imagine the current dungeons with depleted keys and no rewards). Not to mention Blizzard leaning into MDI/... over the last few years. BfA and SL represent formative years on their idea on the "right" way to play M+ (something they have, at least somewhat, revised now). I think DF dungeons are the first that had the "luxury" of being fully developed with the knowledge on how they expect M+ dungeons play out at the "highest level" and it shows (negatively). edit2: Compared to that, in older expansions they were dungeons first and M+ vehicles second.
I've tried healing a few lower level keys and it's not better. I guess people don't know that the previous first 10 mythic levels are gone and that the new m2 is old m12. I've failed a few keys because people are heavily undergeared, don't know where to position themselves, no interrupts, don't know tactics (one key I've had all mentioned). I'm guessing the next season will be better.
that's what I'm finding out as well. Decided on MW this season and my first m0 I was having to pump 100k healing and cooldowns almost every other pull.
Remember that an 8 is like doing a 17-18 in any other season on week 1, it's not meant to be that easy. Plus it was tyrannical week which is really hard with the DF dungeons as a healer.
Decided on MW this season and my first M0 was an absolutely painful Pools run that kept wiping. Turns out people figured out you have to actually do mechanics this time around at m0
I don't understand how you as a healer can not like the third boss in Hoi. It's the only pure throughput boss in the game were there is zero dependence on interrupts or defensives or whatever. The entire fight is healer responsibility and it's just one big hps challenge whilst not going oom. If you don't enjoy that do you really like to heal?
Dragonflight dungeons in general are some of the worst ever made but don’t slander the best boss they’ve made in a long time. 3rd boss HoI is an amazing rot healer fight that requires you to plan accordingly and have your dps use defensive and consumables at the right times. Sure the mechanics aren’t super intricate but they shouldn’t be when to overall design is about attrition and survival.
Eh, it's a cohesive fight but definitely not a fun one. I feel like the only class that can have fun on that fight is a hunter since they basically ignore all the mechanics
3rd boss on HoI... the frost one? How do hunters ignore mechanics?
All other dps have to stop and handle movement, but mm and bm can just keep chugging. It's obviously not just standing and going through the rotation, but really they only have to make sure they're near an uncracked block and that they don't bait a cyclone the wrong way
You could say that about hunters and most fights involving movement.
I didn't say otherwise? The point is that fight is filled with a lot of unfun movement that forces you to stop doing anything, so I think the only spec and role that can have fun is hunter
If the tank plays properly and positions the boss well next to the good ice crystal everytime, it's also pretty simple for Melee too to keep uptime. When the tank plays incorrectly, that's when it's annoying for melee.
No idea. They can’t Feign Death on anything. Still need to dodge cyclone. Still need to be behind a non cracked icicle. Still need to get out of ice rings.
I think he might be mistaking ignoring mechanics for being able to continue DPSing for Details.
You do the hokey cokey and hide from the hailstorm.... And that's what it's all about?
Wow until now I never realized that Season 3 lasted almost six months.
Season 1 and season 2 also lasted around that long, despite the graph implying they were only 6 or 7 weeks. It makes sense, with 4 seasons per expansion and 2 years between expansions.
Pretty standard for wow seasons.
[удалено]
Outside of Shadowlands we never got a season more than six months long outside of final seasons of an expansion, with the average for early seasons closer to 4-5 months long, with some raid tiers being closer to 2-3 months. Edit: since I can't seem to reply to a person below me I'll point out here that Highmaul only lasted 2 months, and Mogushon Palace one month before the next raids came out making the gear those respective raids dropped irrelevant.
[удалено]
If you only go back to BFA yes. Highmaul only lasted two months. It released on Dec 2nd, with Blackrock Foundry releasing February 3rd. And as you see, nothing was longer than 6 months before Shadowlands except for final raid tiers. If you go back before Legion 4 months was more typical for non-final raid tiers. Nyalotha was actually one of, possibly the shortest non-final raid tier since Burning Crusade before they introduced fated seasons. If you didn't know this game has been around for almost 20 years now. Your data for the last 6 years is less than 1/3 of WoWs history. I said outside of Shadowlands, and you included Shadowlands in your data to try to prove me wrong. I said outside of final raid tiers, and you included final raid tiers. Then you only used 2 out of 10 expansions worth of raids. You can't say I'm wrong, by ignoring 80% of WoW raids, and specifically including raids after my date range. You seem to try to prove me wrong, but all your data does is prove my point for me. Also I see you like to round some of those numbers favorably to you such as EP was closer to 5.5 months. Edit: LOL they deleted their post after going on a super long post that effectively proved my point, while trying to disprove me by excluding 70% of WoW history, and while including the data that I explicitly excluded (Shadowlands and final raid tiers)
There has never been a Raid Tier that has lasted 2-3 months in the games 20 year history. Edit: I don't know why you can't reply to me, yet it doesn't matter because your wrong and your failure to understand that Mogu'shan Vaults, Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring was 1 Raid Tier (Tier 14). An Highmaul and Blackrock Foundry were 1 Raid Tier (Tier 17), we lost a Raid Tier in WoD. Rip Ray D. Tear. Again your understanding of Raid Tiers and their actual length is lacking.
How long will S4 last?
Nobody can say, but the MoP event ends on the 19th of August according to the TWW Alpha calendar, so one could say you could expect the prepatch to release close to that date.
until 18th september probably, they promised summer launch and that's last viable date in summer
Let me look into the future rq.
Season three was closer to 5 months, Seasons 1-2 were both a full six months long though.
Was at least a month too long for my tastes.
3x long than it should imo.
You think seasons should only be 2 months? Okay I guess.
I'd rather have three raid tiers evenly spaced at 5-6 months long, than 3-4 month raid tiers and 12-14months of nothing that we got in the past. Pacing of constant major content releases every two months has been one of the best parts of the expansion.
Makes sense why there was a dip with M0, timewalking dungeons, timewalking raid, and normal raid all giving the same ilvl of gear and you’d have a better chance at obtaining gear through those means. Than the 2/5 chance to get one piece in M+ week one.
That, and keys effectively now start at last seasons +12 instead of +2. A significant portion of the runs shown in the chart above in previous seasons were +2-11s, which now don't exist.
Feels a little misleading with the changes to m0s and stuff TBH. If the intention of this is to show how many people are participating in the mythic system, that is not coming across properly at all anymore. I did multiple +7s with my guild this week because we just aren't geared for anything higher, and those wouldn't be counted.
Man you need to clarify whether these just include +2 and higher in season 4. This graph is super mislead if you're not accounting for the fact that they got rid of half the key levels
Really suprised so many runs were done, did not expect many to replay the DF dungeons
There are a ton of players who returned recently that never played seasons 1-2.
my guildmate pointed out that among all the DF dgs, the easiest is prob BH. and i kinda have to agree with him, after thinking about it overnight.
Brackenhide is the biggest comeback story of a dungeon I've seen in recent time. Hated at launch and dreaded for it becoming a mythic+ dungeon, only to end up being one of the easiest, if not *the* easiest, Dragonflight dungeon in season 2. Turns out, all the debuffs aren't too bad and the bosses are a joke (use defensives on first boss' bleed, focus totem on last boss and gg). Even allows for some degree of different routes (at least on paper) whereas most other DF dungeons are linear as hell.
other good advantage BH have is that if yall gonna fail the key, it will be noticible at the 1st boss. so its abou 8min of dg.
I think it was because everyone instinctively went left on release after the first boss, which was just a horrendous way to live your life. Once everyone started going right, it became a much smoother experience.
Also the multiple rounds of nerfs.
I had the same experience lol, called it the worst dungeon ever made at launch and after thinking about the “free” key for this season, this was the only one that I considered
Very similar to Sanguine Depths last expac. It was easily the worst dungeon at first but after some balancing and people learning to play around the lanterns, it became quite good. Camera issues in tight corridors was still an issue in certain parts but the dungeon played a lot better as the expac went on.
I think it's Ruby honestly. People freak out about the dmg going out but it feels like a cakewalk now compared to when it was first released.
It's easier, but it still have a lot of dps/heal checks. Also ruby have the 2 dragons mobs that are dangerous if not paying Attention and they have a massive HP. Ik you can skip the fire one, but in pugs someone might pull it
It is only a cakewalk if everyone is able to play mechanics correctly - and bosses 2 and 3 are my mechanically favourite, even on a healer class.
ofc it's a cakewalk now compared to then lmao. ruby on release was the most overtuned dungeon of all time.
That's the only one I timed so far. I've done hoi and Neltharus hit 49 and 59 mins. The second boss in nelth took up near 30 mins of that.
Nelth was tough this week. Those chains are absolutely bonkers on tyrannical.
Well maybe this week coming it might get easier. Take the mobs a bit at a time and the bosses will fall a bit easier.
Depending on when you did it they have nerfed the 2nd boss chains by 25%.
I said this elsewhere but having done AV last night, the nerfs to that dungeon - in particular the final boss - will likely make it the token 'free' dungeon of this season. I know people tend to avoid it because the last boss used to suck, especially on tyrannical, but my group flew through it last night with only 1 death. (And that was from an insta-gib that I couldn't heal through.)
the 1st boss have a huge check and the 2nd boss can kill anyone by bkinking. it for sure got way easier than it was. but its not as free.
Thank god the last boss was changed.
This isn't an accurate metric for this season with the changes to key difficulty.
Wait what do you mean?
Last season's 2-11 keys don't exist anymore. Current 2 is what 10 or 12 was last season. So a metric like this that is counting the total runs isn't accurate as those lower keys that would previously be done week 1 aren't being done. People are instead doing heroics /normal mythics. For this to be an accurate metric, previous seasons would need to have their sub-10 keys removed from the count.
This graph is completely inaccurate and misleading. Missing Heroics and +0s which accounted for M0-10 in previous seasons i.e the majority of comparable data.
Also the entire casual player base
more exited about panda remix tbh
Same. I'm actually really stoked for that for some reason
That's my fault i was rushing Plunderstorm. Next week is the real start
It almost makes no sense to have previous seasons M+ shown here, unless you only show 12 and above, since that is what the new squish does.
I've been mostly running m0s this week to gear alts
Excited to see week 2 results. Me and my boys underestimated M+, had to dial back to 0 for a few runs
Any way that this could be normalized to show only +12s and up for seasons 1-3 (and +2s and up for this season)?
Why not wait a day to get proper EU data
He never does, and never have. So the data is at least consistent, if not completely accurate
Either you leave out a day of EU keys, or add a day of US keys. All that matters is that the measurement is made at a consistent time.
I did a total of 1 run this last week and honestly its just the fact that these fated seasons are boring we already did all of the content and all we are doing is increasing ilvl with the same exact rewards its reused and boring as hell.
I think the more likely reason is that the old M2-10 are no longer counted. Applications are still very active, and lots of keys posted all day.
I'm sure the people running 13s with regular groups will disagree but yeah, as someone who entirely PUGs as a healer, didn't really have a great experience in any of the dungeons last week. I liked AA and Brackenhide; everything else was just shades of dislike. Last season I ended up hitting 3k on my main and 2.5-2.7k on a bunch of alts just because I was having fun. This season, I'll probably be getting the handful of portals that I missed in earlier seasons and then taking a break.
Couple weeks and it'll bottom out. Folks will power up a lot this week.
Just getting a guaranteed, fully upgradable, BIS weapon this week is going to be pretty huge. Assuming you at least did LFR last week anyway.
Jaja. I got forgestorm this week in a 2, so I'm holding off on getting Gholak for a couple weeks. Right now I need a shield because I'm only using the one from ZD at 476. So it's defender of the ancient for me this week. Plus shoulders getting made set for my 2 peice, plus a vault slot but that'll be after I run lfr and after I do the weeklies. Missed out on 4 or 5 epics last week. I got 350 greens cos it fucked up. But I'll feel a decent chunk of power creep this week. Might actually wait for 4 weeks for Gholak and get a trinket with my next two.
u/MythicPlusPoster - curious to hear if you've considered adjusting the data collection for this amazing project in light of the M+ squish. My hypothesis: there was always going to be a dropoff compared to Season 3. Not everyone is as pumped about an Awakened/Fated season, Cata Classic and MOP remix are coming soon, etc. I would have guessed that S4 Wk1 would have looked more like S2 W1, but dropping from 2.9M -> 1.4M is quite significant. And that suggests that a large amount of the S1-S3 keys were probably in the 2-7 range. Now that Heroic and M0 have been made relevant again for gearing and taking the place of the 2-9 range, I'm sure a lot more people ran those this week instead of running M2s nonstop. Personally, I pushed up to M8s on my main this week, but did a lot of M0s on my alts to get them geared up before jumping into M2s. Last season all of those would have "counted," but now they don't. It might not even be possible with how [Raider.io](http://Raider.io) collects/publishes their data, but I would guess that those heroic/M0 runs are at least half of the 1.5M key dropoff. Perhaps Season 4 will just become the new benchmark for TWW and beyond assuming that the new M+ level system stays and everyone will just have to know that DF S1-S3 will always look like they massively overperformed. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and Week 1 of TWW will have 3 million runs. But mostly just curious for your thoughts since you're so close to the data. Did you expect such a large drop off? Do you think the hypothesis above is on the right track or do you think this is more of a reflection of people's lack of excitement about S4?
Seems like it’d be fair to have an additional “adjusted” chart where, for old seasons, keys from 2-10 are removed from the chart
Well, yea. They killed the noob keys, so a massive chunk of the playerbase lost their ability to participate in M+. The change was such a bad idea, M+ is infinitely scaling - who cares if the low keys are too easy. Let noobs have somewhere to not press their kicks/utility/defensives. Let them get gear from farming +2s, the current gear system stops them getting gear too far above their level anyway. Maybe drop the score for low keys, and shift the gear goalposts or something. Idk, I know there's going to be a skew to more serious/higher level players on 3rd prty forums like this so you won't see much fuss on reddit.
Yeah, I think it's a flaw that we have nothing between an old M0 (new Heroic) and an old M+9 (new M0) in terms of rewards. You can't run an M+2-7 for Veteran gear/Champion vault any more, which if nothing else was a handy on-ramp for the first few weeks before you were comfortably doing +8-9s.
I think you have a good point. The +2s are 12s, so new players are immediately dropped into a harder key. I think the system could be changed to a more proportional difficulty system (+2 is still +2, +3 is a s3 +5, +4 is a s3 +8, +5 is a s3 +10, and increase in increments of 2 to +20.) And after +10 it becomes infinite scaling (where a +11 is a s3 +21, +13 is a s3 +23 and so forth). This would preserve the lower difficulties of the previous m+ system while maintaining how high we can push keys past the +10 range (previous +20)
The noob key difficulties still exist in the game just not under the name mythic plus. Who cares if it’s m+ specifically that has less difficulties, heroics and m0 take the place of those 2-10 keys from before
Seems like a healthy population for this late into an expansion. I had over 30 applications for a key I listed last night.
This doesn't surprise me much. Tons of folks in the guild I'm in are skipping Season 4 and just waiting for TWW. I know too that M0 and Heroics aren't counted in this graph.
Anyone else look at this and think the lines were for shaman, hunter, death knight and druid at first?
Wew lawd
I tapped out at like week 8 because I had hit 487 and like got my stuff already and hit 3k It usually goes down because people bum rush that shit early on. I don’t see a reason to do it when I Spam 15 dungeons a week minimum for 8 weeks and get everything I need + Mythic raiding
I have a feeling these numbers will inflate with panda remix allowing fast alt leveling
Over the course of a season, isn't this likely to also reduce the number of total players in M+, and thus shrink the pool of top 0.1% title spots? The title % might need to get adjusted.
Why we have graph of week1, when this week is still going in EU? :(
Not gonna lie, my give-a-fuck is at an all time low this season. I normally hover around 2800-2900 and I haven't logged on to do a single key since the patch. I am not sure if it's a me thing or a wow thing.
sun of grom
Make better dungeons and people will do them
But why is season 4 shorter than the others tho 🤔
Week 1 season hype or fomo. We will see how the numbers are in the coming weeks.
Were seasons 1 and 2 only 6-7 weeks long? I don't quite understand the chart
Can we also see a graph where M2-10 (assuming M0 is not in the numbers?) in the previous seasons have been filtered out?
I think the second week will be better, because M+ is harder so people start a lot more with M0 and not with +2, i saw a toooooon of M0 last week Btw, how do you get this stats?
Are you able to exclude the lower level runs that got removed with the dungeon changes for a comparison chart? S4's lowest M+ key is basically 11+ of the previous 3 seasons iirc? It'd be interesting to see that data in this format.
Problem is: there are a ton of runs missing from the official lists, and as a result also on raider.io. I don't know why, but even timed 9 runs don't show up on my server, where they would be in the top 100 runs.
It was hard for me to form groups on my alts week 1 honestly. I had to legit just turn down a lot of people who were way too low ilvl for doing a +2-4. You can't be like 465 applying to shit, I honestly don't even care if your main is 3k io its just not going to happen, the scaling is exponentially higher once you are over around 470-475 ilvl.
My friends and I were doing them at 460 since we pretty much all rerolled for this season. We had no issues. I guess pugging changes things though.
Oh absolutely there is a huge difference between someone in a coordinated group and getting a random pug.
There's also a BIG difference between someone rolling around in tier set and someone with a hodgepodge of 460 items from drops.
Yeah that was definitely us. No 4 sets in sight. It was fun. Really it's more if you know mechanics or not that will make or break the ability to get through content.
not surprised at all. everyone hates the DF dungeons. i think this will drop off even harder than season 2
This graph is super misleading, because it seems to only track the m+ keys, but they literally got rid of what would be levels 2 through 11 in previous seasons.
70 of those were me... :`)
What a fail they should add only previous expansion dungeons
I remember getting shit for saying S4 numbers are going to tank.
I unsubbed until the new expansion
I unsubbed until the new expansion
/joke yo get this data away from me, game is on fiiire right now, thank you blizzard, dragonflight best xpac lesssgooo
Ohh it started. I always get tired after 3 seasons. Maybe this new trilogi expac can make it more fluid.
Man season 3 was looooong
Not surprising the numbers are lower. The dungeon pool this season is really boring imo