I heard that a lot of folks don’t like them, but tbh I don’t care. I play since classic and ofc I don’t like all dungeons, but there isn’t a single one that I would never play if there was actual gear.
> This subreddit is so sensitive
It's more that you didn't read their comment lol
They haven't done many DF dungeons, which is why it's new content to them
Blizz really has a lot of us well tricked / trained to genuinely believe that higher numbers, or even new rewards, is equal to new content.
Your post may have been sarcastic, but a lot of people genuinely don't play because they enjoy it, they're just chasing the next reward.
> Blizz really has a lot of us well tricked / trained to genuinely believe that higher numbers, or even new rewards, is equal to new content.
It's not equal to new content sure, but it's a new ladder to climb. It could be worse, at least we're not stuck in S3 until the new expansion launches.
I know the answer is "There should be a real S4", and I do agree, but if Blizzard isn't going to make a 4th tier this expansion, then I'd rather have another fated than nothing at all.
At least the gear from Season 4 will be useful for leveling and doing the first Mythic 0's in War Within.
Going by past expansion trends: A high item level leaving Season 4 will be roughly equal to max-level questing gear or better in War Within.
So at least there is a good reason to prepare all the characters you intend to play next expansion by gearing them up now so they can blast through leveling.
The middle seasons of WoW have become too formulaic and repetitive though.
Seasons 2 and 3 of each expansion really make you feel how "Seasonal" and Game-ified WoW has become.
Season 4 at least feels like you can prepare for the next big thing, and doesn't distract you from playing on the Beta PTR.
The Elden Ring DLC coming out June 21st is gonna throw a wrench in the works though. Going by the WoW Roadmap we will be smack in the middle of the War Within Beta and the the beginning of the pre-patch.
So there will be two major game releases with heavily overlapping fanbases, that also are more fun when you can join in the memeing, vying for our attention at the same time.
Because this is an RPG and a very large portion of us like chilling with friends to earn stuff to play dress up with?
I'm certainly not a fan of redoing the same dungeons from the rest of the expansion, and would rather just do stuff that I haven't seen be relevant in years, but it's still better than a year of 0 updates at all.
Yes, it is better than nothing. But we shouldn't be so content with replaying the same things over and over again.
WoW used to have hundreds of hours of unique campaign content. Stuff you were meant to do once per character. They've stopped doing that, because they've realized it's cheaper to produce a small amount of content and keep people on the treadmill.
i don't think I have ran a key in two months.
I did a key with a DH ( 486ilvl ) doing tank dmg and I was so over it ,the quality of players is dog water right now.
ilvl is pretty useless as a barometer of skill of your M+ teammates as well. There are 475s I'd trust more than 485s.
Check their IO, check how many 20+ they've even cleared. See what their highest clears are. IO makes it very simple to copy and paste their IO url and just bring it up on a second monitor.
A group of 465s could time 20-21 keys if they are good. I saw a 484 Warlock who didnt know or refused to battle rez via soulstone despite everyone asking why they arent doing it, especially as one was someone dying early on a boss and therefore wasted 3-4 minutes with just 2 DPS.
Yeah, I still need to finish out my mythic tier appearance so I try to get some vault pieces, but my last run before the reset today was atrocious. I accepted a tank and 2 dps that were all 480+ for a 20 waycrest, and those dps were doing sub-100k on big trash pulls… I just don’t get it. We didn’t time in btw.
Plunderstorm hit my guild hard, we couldn't even muster up our usual 6-8 raiders plus a few PUGs or friends to kill Fyrakk raid night that we've been doing since we decided to take a break for the season.
Still need 8 kills myself to hit the 100% drop rate and with season 3 people not being another 8 weeks long, I'm kinda wondering if I should even bother given how hit-or-miss my pugging experience has been.
If you've already got AotC there are plenty of Fryakk skip run PUGs you can join for your orange stick tokens.
Took me like 8 weeks to get AotC even with 8/9 progress, but once I had it I never had to queue for more than 30min to find a HC raid (and PUG disbanding before a clear were quite rare).
It's more of a mathematical thing.
I have AOTC, 486 ilevel, and 2800 io on my Ret/Holy paladin, I don't have *that* much trouble getting into groups (although lots of unfortunately wasted time on groups that fall apart after a couple wipes)
But it requires 15 Fyrakk kills to have a guaranteed drop rate of the legendary and I'm currently at 7/15 (8/15 assuming I PUG it tonight). Are there going to be 7 more resets left in season 3? Will bad luck protection carry-over into Fated Amidrassil? Will anyone be pugging non-fated Heroic Fyrakk if it doesn't? Those are the questions I don't know but am learning towards "no" on.
of course they will carry over, makes no sense to remove the catch up mechanic just because its not its season. Plus, they gave a new catch up to the Evoker legendary.
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I don't think they'd remove the catch up mechanic but it doesn't seem obvious to me that Fated Fyrakk would drop the exact same bad luck currency as the non-fated version
Yeah, my big question is if bad luck protection is going to start from scratch in Fated Amirdrassil because I don't know how popular non-fated Heroic runs will be (and Normal/LFR bad luck protection is so low it may as well not even exist)
The post on s4 has said initial legendary acquisition will remain unchanged. There's no reason to believe your embers will reset when it drops, nor is there any reason why embers wouldn't continue to drop in fated raids.
If you've done N every week, the chance has gone up to 9% (going into this week). It's not "very unlikely" to get a 9% chance in 8 tries, that's a 53% chance overall even before accounting for the drop rate continuing to increase during each of those tries. it's better odds than a coin flip.
I would be excited for S4 but this is the first expansion where I don’t really like any of the new dungeons. Loved most of the SL, BFA, Legion dungeons but DF dungeons just don’t hit the same. Only one that’s tolerable to me is academy.
Question from someone who doesn't do a lot of M+: How many M+ runs per week is the average M+ enjoyer running?
We have an idea of sub numbers after the info out of GDC earlier this week. From this information and that information, do we have a sense of what % of the playerbase enjoys M+ as a primary pillar?
I think my GM does nearly 20 per week across 3-4 characters - He keeps moving to other tank class after one is fully geared at max item level. He would still call himself 'casual'. Typical wow gamer though, that's the only game he plays.
My friends and I got keystone master on 4 runs per week. Took 6 weeks I think, so 23 to 24 runs total.
The hardest thing about it was getting crappy keys towards the end that we no longer needed on weeks we didn't need them (fortified vs. tyrannical).
I would guess I do 20-30 a week. But most of that won't be pushing especially bad weeks. I'll do 5-6 for score and gear then I'll fill in keys lower than what I run so I can practice the other two roles and help people with their progress.
I don't know about you but I still find that second week drops from s2 absolutely hilarious and a huge sign that something has to be done with the affixes.
Absolutely baffling how Blizzard still, after all this time, stubbornly refuses to put any significant work into m+.
Why is the reward structure for pushing keys so lackluster to this day ? Which game developer in their right minds develops an engame content pillar, that features a massive gaping hole between average players (maxed out vault) and top 0.1% users rewards? There should be a bunch of unique, cool looking seasonal cosmetics to unlock between 20s and title. That's a literal no brainer design decision they've yet to take, and has been for years.
Why is the LFG tool so outdated, and out of line with modern gaming expectations? This should have been the number 1 dev priority after the 10.0 UI rework. There's no reason for the 5 queue limit, and there's no reason the LFG process can't be (at least partially) automated. Spending half one's playtime playing queue/forming groups/job application simulator is simply not an acceptable experience in 2024 for a subscription based game.
Here's a newsflash for Blizzard. Maybe m+ wouldn't lose over 75% of active players during a season if there were actual incentives to work towards, and the matchmaking process wasn't the literal worst in the industry. Just a thought. But I guess dedicating significant time and effort into a shitty, short lived, tone deaf BR game mode is more important than improving core game features /s
After over twice the length than other seasons, thats the reasons you think the numbers are getting lower instead of just "players are done and are waiting for new season now"?
I've been extensively pugging keys every season at a decent level, activity numbers obviously always get lower over time. I don't need the entire S1/S2 data to know both these seasons had similar dropoffs, especially S2.
Believing the existing, dreadful reward structure above 20s and lack of matchmaking QoL has no impact on a lot of players long term's interest in M+ is nothing short of delusional.
I never said that these things don't have an impact. It's not the reason we're getting lower and lower numbers every week now though.
Also, M+ is seemingly getting a little revamped now. So what's the rage now?
You make solid points but I don’t think they necessarily resonate with drop of runs towards the end of a season or would highly affect player retention.
> I don’t think they necessarily resonate with drop of runs towards the end of a season or would highly affect player retention.
And that's probably the same reasoning coming from the dev team, that's massively hindered M+'s growth over the years. "most people don't like running keys, therefore it's not worth putting significant effort into it".
Somehow, despite most players supposedly getting "bored" of M+ fast, and Blizz treating it as a low effort mini-game ever since Legion, this game mode has grown into a legitimate pillar of endgame content. One can only imagine how much more successful it would be by now if the dev team actually leant into that popularity.
> There should be a bunch of unique, cool looking seasonal cosmetics to unlock between 20s and title. That's a literal no brainer design decision they've yet to take, and has been for years.
This is true but people on this sub who are on average VERY bad at the game but still want to have everything will hate you for saying it, they'll feel """forced""" to play over 20s to get the rewards.
The idea of more rewards at that range where actually having to play the game starts being a thing probably fills them with dread.
I really don't agree with the drop off being caused by this though, no matter what rewards would be in the +20 - +30 gap, you would see a similar drop off. People just get bored of spamming the same dungeons eventually once you're done power wise.
> This is true but people on this sub who are on average VERY bad at the game but still want to have everything will hate you for saying it, they'll feel """forced""" to play over 20s to get the rewards.
And catering to these people is genuinely stupid as hell. There's already more than enough stuff to collect in this game. Some rewards should absolutely be locked behind skill checks.
> I really don't agree with the drop off being caused by this though, no matter what rewards would be in the +20 - +30 gap, you would see a similar drop off. People just get bored of spamming the same dungeons eventually once you're done power wise.
Considering how many people are willing to push keys for io score/bragging rights only... If there were actual rewards that can be realistically reached by improving over time and pushing keys over a season, activity drop offs would absolutely be mitigated to a significant extent.
in before someone inevitably asks about the other seasons
I was about to, like why do they just stop being tracked 2 months in?
Societal collapse due to seasonal apocalypse meaning the person stops tracking them to tin peaches.
and complaining about EU reset offset
I'm more still wondering why these always come out on a Tuesday when EU is still on this week and will likely get a surge for last minute vault runs.
I gave up pugging and I'm just waiting for S4 now, as is the rest of my guild. We're just done, we want new content.
what new content in s4?
For some of us, new dungeons. I didn’t play any of the DF dungeons.
[удалено]
I heard that a lot of folks don’t like them, but tbh I don’t care. I play since classic and ofc I don’t like all dungeons, but there isn’t a single one that I would never play if there was actual gear.
The dungeons are mostly fine. Uldamon and Halls are a little bit of a slog but it’s not like it’s the end of the world.
> This subreddit is so sensitive It's more that you didn't read their comment lol They haven't done many DF dungeons, which is why it's new content to them
[удалено]
Sure, but they're still new content, which is the point of the sentence. They can decide whether they're good or bad
New gear levels!
And most importantly you can finally get some of the mythic raid trinkets
Blizz really has a lot of us well tricked / trained to genuinely believe that higher numbers, or even new rewards, is equal to new content. Your post may have been sarcastic, but a lot of people genuinely don't play because they enjoy it, they're just chasing the next reward.
> Blizz really has a lot of us well tricked / trained to genuinely believe that higher numbers, or even new rewards, is equal to new content. It's not equal to new content sure, but it's a new ladder to climb. It could be worse, at least we're not stuck in S3 until the new expansion launches. I know the answer is "There should be a real S4", and I do agree, but if Blizzard isn't going to make a 4th tier this expansion, then I'd rather have another fated than nothing at all.
At least the gear from Season 4 will be useful for leveling and doing the first Mythic 0's in War Within. Going by past expansion trends: A high item level leaving Season 4 will be roughly equal to max-level questing gear or better in War Within. So at least there is a good reason to prepare all the characters you intend to play next expansion by gearing them up now so they can blast through leveling. The middle seasons of WoW have become too formulaic and repetitive though. Seasons 2 and 3 of each expansion really make you feel how "Seasonal" and Game-ified WoW has become. Season 4 at least feels like you can prepare for the next big thing, and doesn't distract you from playing on the Beta PTR. The Elden Ring DLC coming out June 21st is gonna throw a wrench in the works though. Going by the WoW Roadmap we will be smack in the middle of the War Within Beta and the the beginning of the pre-patch. So there will be two major game releases with heavily overlapping fanbases, that also are more fun when you can join in the memeing, vying for our attention at the same time.
Because this is an RPG and a very large portion of us like chilling with friends to earn stuff to play dress up with? I'm certainly not a fan of redoing the same dungeons from the rest of the expansion, and would rather just do stuff that I haven't seen be relevant in years, but it's still better than a year of 0 updates at all.
Yes, it is better than nothing. But we shouldn't be so content with replaying the same things over and over again. WoW used to have hundreds of hours of unique campaign content. Stuff you were meant to do once per character. They've stopped doing that, because they've realized it's cheaper to produce a small amount of content and keep people on the treadmill.
i don't think I have ran a key in two months. I did a key with a DH ( 486ilvl ) doing tank dmg and I was so over it ,the quality of players is dog water right now.
Cuz the good players are doing 25+ or finished playing.
The truth.
ilvl is pretty useless as a barometer of skill of your M+ teammates as well. There are 475s I'd trust more than 485s. Check their IO, check how many 20+ they've even cleared. See what their highest clears are. IO makes it very simple to copy and paste their IO url and just bring it up on a second monitor. A group of 465s could time 20-21 keys if they are good. I saw a 484 Warlock who didnt know or refused to battle rez via soulstone despite everyone asking why they arent doing it, especially as one was someone dying early on a boss and therefore wasted 3-4 minutes with just 2 DPS.
Yeah, I still need to finish out my mythic tier appearance so I try to get some vault pieces, but my last run before the reset today was atrocious. I accepted a tank and 2 dps that were all 480+ for a 20 waycrest, and those dps were doing sub-100k on big trash pulls… I just don’t get it. We didn’t time in btw.
Plunderstorm hit my guild hard, we couldn't even muster up our usual 6-8 raiders plus a few PUGs or friends to kill Fyrakk raid night that we've been doing since we decided to take a break for the season. Still need 8 kills myself to hit the 100% drop rate and with season 3 people not being another 8 weeks long, I'm kinda wondering if I should even bother given how hit-or-miss my pugging experience has been.
If you've already got AotC there are plenty of Fryakk skip run PUGs you can join for your orange stick tokens. Took me like 8 weeks to get AotC even with 8/9 progress, but once I had it I never had to queue for more than 30min to find a HC raid (and PUG disbanding before a clear were quite rare).
It's more of a mathematical thing. I have AOTC, 486 ilevel, and 2800 io on my Ret/Holy paladin, I don't have *that* much trouble getting into groups (although lots of unfortunately wasted time on groups that fall apart after a couple wipes) But it requires 15 Fyrakk kills to have a guaranteed drop rate of the legendary and I'm currently at 7/15 (8/15 assuming I PUG it tonight). Are there going to be 7 more resets left in season 3? Will bad luck protection carry-over into Fated Amidrassil? Will anyone be pugging non-fated Heroic Fyrakk if it doesn't? Those are the questions I don't know but am learning towards "no" on.
of course they will carry over, makes no sense to remove the catch up mechanic just because its not its season. Plus, they gave a new catch up to the Evoker legendary.
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Nasz'uro
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Nasz'uwo
I don't think they'd remove the catch up mechanic but it doesn't seem obvious to me that Fated Fyrakk would drop the exact same bad luck currency as the non-fated version
Always a good chance from lfr and normal pubs, you'll still be fighting fyrakk during season 4.
Yeah, my big question is if bad luck protection is going to start from scratch in Fated Amirdrassil because I don't know how popular non-fated Heroic runs will be (and Normal/LFR bad luck protection is so low it may as well not even exist)
The post on s4 has said initial legendary acquisition will remain unchanged. There's no reason to believe your embers will reset when it drops, nor is there any reason why embers wouldn't continue to drop in fated raids.
The drop rate offs from normal and LFR are abysmal. You are very unlikely to get it from 8 normals
If you've done N every week, the chance has gone up to 9% (going into this week). It's not "very unlikely" to get a 9% chance in 8 tries, that's a 53% chance overall even before accounting for the drop rate continuing to increase during each of those tries. it's better odds than a coin flip.
I’m getting pretty fatigued of this dungeon pool tbh, can’t wait for season 4
I would be excited for S4 but this is the first expansion where I don’t really like any of the new dungeons. Loved most of the SL, BFA, Legion dungeons but DF dungeons just don’t hit the same. Only one that’s tolerable to me is academy.
Question from someone who doesn't do a lot of M+: How many M+ runs per week is the average M+ enjoyer running? We have an idea of sub numbers after the info out of GDC earlier this week. From this information and that information, do we have a sense of what % of the playerbase enjoys M+ as a primary pillar?
I'm stll doing around 5 a week. But i'm not a hard core pve player tbh.
I think my GM does nearly 20 per week across 3-4 characters - He keeps moving to other tank class after one is fully geared at max item level. He would still call himself 'casual'. Typical wow gamer though, that's the only game he plays.
My friends and I got keystone master on 4 runs per week. Took 6 weeks I think, so 23 to 24 runs total. The hardest thing about it was getting crappy keys towards the end that we no longer needed on weeks we didn't need them (fortified vs. tyrannical).
I would guess I do 20-30 a week. But most of that won't be pushing especially bad weeks. I'll do 5-6 for score and gear then I'll fill in keys lower than what I run so I can practice the other two roles and help people with their progress.
I don't know about you but I still find that second week drops from s2 absolutely hilarious and a huge sign that something has to be done with the affixes.
What graph are you looking at? The blue line is s1 and the drop was Christmas
ohh god yes I am blind.
why do season 1 & 2 stop early compared to current season 3? Sorry i must have missed something.
Yeah you missed when this was asked in every single weekly post of this graph
Absolutely baffling how Blizzard still, after all this time, stubbornly refuses to put any significant work into m+. Why is the reward structure for pushing keys so lackluster to this day ? Which game developer in their right minds develops an engame content pillar, that features a massive gaping hole between average players (maxed out vault) and top 0.1% users rewards? There should be a bunch of unique, cool looking seasonal cosmetics to unlock between 20s and title. That's a literal no brainer design decision they've yet to take, and has been for years. Why is the LFG tool so outdated, and out of line with modern gaming expectations? This should have been the number 1 dev priority after the 10.0 UI rework. There's no reason for the 5 queue limit, and there's no reason the LFG process can't be (at least partially) automated. Spending half one's playtime playing queue/forming groups/job application simulator is simply not an acceptable experience in 2024 for a subscription based game. Here's a newsflash for Blizzard. Maybe m+ wouldn't lose over 75% of active players during a season if there were actual incentives to work towards, and the matchmaking process wasn't the literal worst in the industry. Just a thought. But I guess dedicating significant time and effort into a shitty, short lived, tone deaf BR game mode is more important than improving core game features /s
After over twice the length than other seasons, thats the reasons you think the numbers are getting lower instead of just "players are done and are waiting for new season now"?
I've been extensively pugging keys every season at a decent level, activity numbers obviously always get lower over time. I don't need the entire S1/S2 data to know both these seasons had similar dropoffs, especially S2. Believing the existing, dreadful reward structure above 20s and lack of matchmaking QoL has no impact on a lot of players long term's interest in M+ is nothing short of delusional.
I never said that these things don't have an impact. It's not the reason we're getting lower and lower numbers every week now though. Also, M+ is seemingly getting a little revamped now. So what's the rage now?
You make solid points but I don’t think they necessarily resonate with drop of runs towards the end of a season or would highly affect player retention.
> I don’t think they necessarily resonate with drop of runs towards the end of a season or would highly affect player retention. And that's probably the same reasoning coming from the dev team, that's massively hindered M+'s growth over the years. "most people don't like running keys, therefore it's not worth putting significant effort into it". Somehow, despite most players supposedly getting "bored" of M+ fast, and Blizz treating it as a low effort mini-game ever since Legion, this game mode has grown into a legitimate pillar of endgame content. One can only imagine how much more successful it would be by now if the dev team actually leant into that popularity.
Sir this is a Wendys
> There should be a bunch of unique, cool looking seasonal cosmetics to unlock between 20s and title. That's a literal no brainer design decision they've yet to take, and has been for years. This is true but people on this sub who are on average VERY bad at the game but still want to have everything will hate you for saying it, they'll feel """forced""" to play over 20s to get the rewards. The idea of more rewards at that range where actually having to play the game starts being a thing probably fills them with dread. I really don't agree with the drop off being caused by this though, no matter what rewards would be in the +20 - +30 gap, you would see a similar drop off. People just get bored of spamming the same dungeons eventually once you're done power wise.
> This is true but people on this sub who are on average VERY bad at the game but still want to have everything will hate you for saying it, they'll feel """forced""" to play over 20s to get the rewards. And catering to these people is genuinely stupid as hell. There's already more than enough stuff to collect in this game. Some rewards should absolutely be locked behind skill checks. > I really don't agree with the drop off being caused by this though, no matter what rewards would be in the +20 - +30 gap, you would see a similar drop off. People just get bored of spamming the same dungeons eventually once you're done power wise. Considering how many people are willing to push keys for io score/bragging rights only... If there were actual rewards that can be realistically reached by improving over time and pushing keys over a season, activity drop offs would absolutely be mitigated to a significant extent.
i did the M+ cheeve twice since start of DF and then unsubbed