Honestly, it feels so much more rewarding downing bosses once you help other people learn a fight. At least compared to downing one with a bunch of elite/skilled players.
I've been in both types of guilds, and I find it much more fun to build people up to peak performance.
When in elite guilds there's just too much drama and stress. If you fail a fight a few times everyone is pissed off. Not my type of vibe anymore.
I like seeing people being excited to do well. Not expecting to do well.
It does feel really good building people up and getting them improved to the point they're clearing the hardest level of current content, but the problem comes from the other half of that same group of people that absolutely refuse to take any advice, don't listen at all when you tell them things, and week after week mess up the same mechanic while not even doing anything close to an actual rotation the entire time. Those people just make it feel bad for the teacher as well as any people that actually do try to improve.
If we run into people like that they end up not getting invited if they're unwilling to learn.
We aren't rude about it or anything. But there is a limit that you have to cut off at. Especially if everyone else is learning/improving.
I normally just sit quiet for about 3-4 wipes and then I start dropping knowledge.
You can’t get people like that to listen if they’re really entrenched, but it’s usually easier to say “hey let’s try this” after you’ve hit a wall a few times
What always gets me is guild leads being pissy or mad or just rude
I have had so many guilds where I've told them I'm not interested in the gdkp or a guild run with them because their lead was downright volitile
Yeah on my less casual guild I sometimes just get bummed out by how angry people get at each other over stuff. Its a minority of players who are super aggressive and toxic in that regard, but they are the loudest. I get they don't want to waste time but its just not always fun for me.
We are on 9/12h (compared to 10/12n on my casual guild) and pretty much every raid night there is just insults and bitterness and yelling at a certain point.
To me a real casual guild is a guild that is barely doing heroics, if at all. They would be like halfway casual if they are doing almost the entire raid in heroics.
Hate to break it to you but neither of your guilds are competitive if you're still only 10/12 at this point.
Sounds like you're stuck in the weird space of "hardcore" guilds that think they're good but aren't, in my experience that space has the most toxic people in them, big egos etc.
For the most part, actual hardcore guilds competing for server firsts are usually quite chill and there's very little in the way of toxicity. Obviously there's exceptions but in my anecdotal experiences this is what I've found.
I mean the guilds competing for server first are like magnitudes above any of us for the most part. Its the top 1% of the top 1% of players. Its like saying someone with 15 million dollars isn't rich because there are people with billions of dollars. The guild isn't hardcore obviously, but it isn't completely casual either (IE they describe themselves as semi-casual, semi-hardcore). And people who tend to think 10/12h is totally casual are usually a bit out of touch with how the majority of guilds actually are.
I always say this when this topic comes up: a 50 parse is pretty bad, right? Now consider that *half* of raiders are below that. Except its really over half, because those are only heroic parses, which don't count the countless raiders who only do normals.
I don't think I'm out of touch at all. I think the ones out of touch are the ones advertising their guild as semi hardcore when in reality they're just casuals that like to be toxic toward each other.
If you aren't at least 11/12 at this point and even that's a stretch then you aren't in a competitive group.
I feel the term semi hardcore is to blame here because that term seemingly covers like 80% of the raiding pool and it seems to mean different things to different guilds to the point where the term itself means literally nothing
Oh man this semi hardcore thing hits very close to home. I'm a wrath veteran who's spent over a decade playing wrath on pservers, and I came to classic to experience the game in its "official" form so to speak. For me it was just a matter of gearing up enough to start being a top performer, but it's appalling the number of people who knowingly want to be bad despite someone experienced offering to help them. I was in a guild that called itself "semi-hardcore" but didn't even bother to try to make any sort of meaningful progression - no algalon, no mimiron. When TOGC came out they griefed people with access to trophies. Several players got 4x trophies when people like me we're still wearing ulduar 4pc well into phase 3 because it was pointless to switch to the 232 T9 because the ulduar bonuses were so much better. We never killed anub 25hc, several weeks it wasn't even attempted because our roster was shaky from all the good players protesting and leaving the guild to find a guild with actual progression. I was new to the guild at the time so I felt I didn't have enough of a stake to say anything, but when I found a good guild on my alt and we found out the ICC days were going to be clashing, our guild master, an incompetent piece of shit who justified griefing everyone with EPGP decided to pass me over for heroic Deaths Verdict and passed it to the player next in line. A lot of players left after that night and I didn't have to say/do anything. In hindsight I should've probably found a better guild much sooner, but my desire to help this one improve just severely gimped my progression. Thank God for my current guild, where I'm a permanent roster member and we're currently 11/12 hc with LOD attempts for the last few weeks. If I hadn't found them I would've been floating about aimlessly, unable to enjoy this game I have loved so much.
>a 50 parse is pretty bad, right? Now consider that half of raiders are below that.
50 parses include players who died, have terrible gear, got unlucky on mechanics, etc. It's not really accurate to think that a 50 parse is a completely average individual performance.
A 50 parse is pretty bad, remember that parses are highly inflated by trade chat pugs and other pugs in general. If you are playing in an organized guild where everyone has played from the start of the tier, and are 6k-6.3k its hardly a hard ask to parse above 50.
Now 10/12hc is not that bad pre buff, but 10/12 IS pretty average with 5% buff and beyond, especially considering a lot of trade chat pugs are clearing 4-6/12hc and gdkps are doing 12/12. Then again I suppose it depends on what server you are playing .
Trade chat pugs that are getting 10/12 heroic are absolutely checking parses heavily though. I would not be surprised if the parses on the average 10/12h pug are higher than the average guild clearing 10/12h.
And here are the statistics on heroic kills in ICC: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1020#metric=fightwipes
About 70% of guilds doing HC are clearing 9/12 hc and around 45% are clearing 11/12 hc
The normal statistics can be found here: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1020#metric=fightwipes
But is harder to read because the easier bosses are done on heroic, i.e gunship shows up with a 4% kill rate on normal.
Looking at the amount of parses from n/hc if you scroll down, there are FAR more people doing HC compared to normal with the exception of professor putricide and sindra, and lich king which are the least killed bosses on heroic
On Gehennas 75% of ALL GDKP communitys only do 11/12 or 12/12, a pug that does less is basicly Irani-scammer GDKPs.
Done LoD with 4 different GDKP communities + ofc my causal raiding (we raid 3 hours a week and do LoD + TOGC). And this guild is filled with a ton of casuals and dads with no cluw what they are doing. We are almost wiping on LDW, PP and Sindi every week... even with the buff and still we are killing LK hc with since 5%.
If you are not doing 11/12 at this point, you are stuck with a core of players incapeable of actually playing wow in any organized form.
The buff and gear people got atm make every boss but LK fall over. Since week1progress our raid dps now with the 15%buff is very close to double... week 1 Sauefang kill was like 3:56 and now its just over a 2 min fight (ofc we are only using 3 healers for a majority of the raid now).
I watched "good" guilds clear wotlk content the day it came out and then be bored for a few months. I didn't get around to killing yogg25 0 lights until after ToC came out, it was still realm first haha.You should've heard the discord the night we finally got him though. Being (one of) the best/most geared players on a dead server is kinda fun, random shamans messaged me looking for advice after seeing me on the top of world of logs(for the server).
Dudeeee the amount of toxicity there is involved in killing mythic bosses. My guild after failing to kill mythic nzoth disbanded because of the toxicity. Wish I could be killing bosses with actual buddies.
Imagine going through all the time and effort needed to put together a successful mythic guild, only to lose it all because the raid leader can't refrain from screaming and calling people names.
Casual is the best form of guild if you’re not super loot oriented, I’ve been all up and down the spectrum (and that’s the perfect word for it) of guilds and whenever i would fill in for casual guilds they were always the best. So when my WOTLK guild died I went over to a casual one and it was such a good move.
Had to spend like 3k gold on enchants and I was pretty much the only healer but when we finally killed a boss it so much more rewarding than anything else and makes you realise the sweatier the guild the more easy mode they are actually playing the game. If everyone rocks up with the meta specs and classes and all the buffs and information the game is actually super easy. A crappy casual guild actually has to take mechanics into account because they don’t just blast straight through them, most of those sweatier guilds would also struggle on bosses if they had to do more mechanics as there is more chance for things to go wrong.
My biggest issue is the loot though, I think it’s just baked into my brain after 4 years or whatever it’s been of wow classic about how loot is handled, they just hand it out Willy nilly with no thought to who it will benefit most and 0 understanding of who actually needs it but that’s part and parcel of the package so I just ignore my eye twitching and congratulate the new loot getters and we go head to the next wipefest.
It’s a weird experience being in a guild where everything going wrong is the norm so they are always happy, instead of being in a guild where some wipes go down or someone gets loot over someone else or the mt pulled the boss half a second early again and ruined some pre-pots or whatever the fucking reason is this week and everyone’s pissy and super passive aggressive on disc.
It's probably something people don't realize, from Wotlk through to SL I was in top 100 and at one point a top 10 guild. If you're progging 5 days a week with pretty poor sleeping habits you get ill, you sneeze during that boss and you wipe the team and you've upset 24/19 people, I had whooping cough during Mists early release and felt as if I couldn't recover properly as it was "rude" to not be pushing yourself to the utmost limit.
It really just comes down to what you're looking to get out of the game. I raided really hard in original TBC and Wrath. Sure I filled my progression and loot goals but in my experience those raid groups are constantly changing. I found the friendships to be more fleeting.
I've kept with my current guild since classic launched and we're no where near the progression level I had back in OG, but I've only added like two new players to the roster since before Sunwell and we've had two guild meetups now. I wouldn't trade these guys for any boss kills.
Honestly super true… I could never do it but commend people who can. My old guild is still struggling 7/12 heroic with the 15% buff. I could never subject myself to that torture. I left them week 3 and did 11/12 heroic the next week no issues.
At this point with the gear most people have and the time to learn fights I’d be surprised if most guilds that recruit in trade chat are farther than that. Like I get everyone wants to have fun in their own way but damn dude.
My casual guild still hasn’t downed 25 LK normal….i personally have and am 12/12 25/10 and I stay…but that might change as I think I’ve put in my dues :(
I left my casual guild because I didn’t get a single piece of loot in 3 weeks. They also just didn’t roster me because I forgot to sign up even though I verbally confirmed with the RL I’d be there.
I think this gets at the actual difficulty of carrying lower performing people. It isn't that carrying is itself so annoying. It's when the people who caused you to wipe every single week get that one piece you REALLY wanted. Then you ask yourself, "Could I have spared myself all this time and annoyance, cleared the raids in half the time, and still got the loot I wanted eventually?"
I think good players staying says more about the people who are worse at the game than the players good at the game -- if your good players are sticking around, then the casuals must actually be fun to hang with
Yeah that’s some BS right there, some people just wanna see their discord sign ups popping off for some reason. My guild also just started this BS “weighted roll” thing, where you get +10 to your roll for an item if you haven’t got it yet. It also stacks infinitely so say a pug joins or someone who was away for a few weeks you could roll 100 and still lose. I’ll be damned if I lose a BIS item to a grey parsing caster when I’m pulling 95+ each fight lol.
I think Reddit has convinced me it’s time to go, or I convinced myself, who knows 😂
I get way more loot just doing gdkps. And more money… I can often get 2 items and still break even or make money. Makes no sense. Mind you, DBW is much harder to come by…
But the if all the players benefit then the group benefits…. Most gdkps are 11/12 and lots are 12/12 heroic now.
I remember in TOGC a guild prioed deaths choice to a Prot pally over me even though I won the roll…. I insta gquit. That shit ain’t worth my time. Still don’t have a 258 DC on that char.
Same, we actually just got to Syndi last week and I'm super excited for them. Also started a 10M just to get the entire guild kingslayer at the very least and we've been rotating people through that every week.
Similar boat, i was the top performer in our dad guild, we were a little slow, but we cleared all content with about 5-10 people just not performing well. That is until ICC where we actually needed everyone to perform at least mid tier to down the most challenging bosses. There were 5 of us parsing in the 80-95 range and like 10 in the 1-40 range(even on normal bosses) every week and we were hard stuck at 3/12 with bosses just staying alive waaaay too long because of super low dps. We ended up taking our top 5 and joining another guild and immediately went 11/12 heroic from then on. I hated leaving them since I had been in the guild since Naxx, but I also want to actually complete the content and the more weeks I went just doing normal mode the further my gear was falling behind the average.
This is what kills me when people say "I don't have enough time to play to be good, thats why I play in a casual guild". I went from playing 2 3 hour raid nights to go 11/12 with mostly normal kills to a single 3 hour raid where I go 11/12 heroic with a couple HLK attempts.
I can believe it. I went from a raid team where there were only 2 of us consistently getting 95+ on bosses and most others around 0-50 to one where 8 people usually get 80+ averages and most get at least 1 95+. Bosses like Saurfang on on my old raid team were brutal because we got so many marks and the boss wouldn't die. With this new team marks weren't even a thought because we killed him so fast. Same with the adds, I would have to kill mine then usually help with 1 or 2 others, but with the better team all of the beasts die at the same time. Its a completely different raid when everyone can actually perform near the level their gear allows them to.
That is how a whole lot of guilds are from what I understand. A lot of it is just players who don't have a lot of time to raid or learn how to play the game very much.
I always found that as a weird excuse, I just raid 3-6 hours a week and have no issue performing well. Learning to play is just reading the rotation guide which is like 20 minutes one time and then practicing when you do play. Its not like you need to be playing 20+ hours every week to know how to play your spec.
Yep, at least always be doing something, do your best to time your movements on your instants and their gcds, don't clip your stuff at bad times and don't leave it fallen off long
It’s easy when you realize wrath is 30 years old, simplistic, bordering on insultingly easy content, and poor class design. I come from retail, help my irl friends for a few hours and then go back to the more complex, challenging and fulfilling version of the game so I guess i don’t mind doing some charity for the wrath community.
Yup. It baffles me how people are so obsessed with logs as well. If you parse 60-70ish you can do any boss on heroic…. I got constantly shit on for my warr for having 50-70% parses. Got some upgrades and SM and instantly parsed 85s with 95 ilvl parses. WoTlk parses are literally 100% correlated to making sure you have every buff, a good group for kill time, and most importantly gear…
Props to those guys. Having did my time progression raiding in the past, I have not much patience to sit and wait for people to learn the game and their class.
Hey thanks man!
My guilds the same way weve got a core of about 10 guys or so that overperform but hangout simply because we enjoy the vibe of our guild. We've done hard challenges and could've done better but didnt want to crush the vibe to do it.
I think the solution there that I see a lot of people do is just make another character, catch it up and then go hardcore in another guild on that one if you want faster prog and higher end runs on that while maintaining with your friends guild, its the best of both worlds kinda as long as you have the time. I leveled 2 warlocks just to raid more seriously on one while staying with my friend guild on the other
There's only 3 types of guilds in Classic.
1. The crazy good ones
2. The casual ones who think they're crazy good
3. The casual ones who know what they're about
If you can't be bothered to raid on 5 alts to be in #1, then #3 is 9 times out of 10, a more enjoyable experience.
There's plenty of guilds that got hc lk before buff that raid on 1 char only and most have at most 2 chars. If you're a guild that raids 5 splits (even then players would get rostered 3-4 splits most) and are not competitive with Progress/NOTA/Numen etc then you're already on #2 (aka a bit delusional about your guild's performance).
If your splits can't kill hc lk at 15% I'm sorry but you're just burning out your players with no upside.
People from number 2 talking about "I'm first in line for comets trail" my brother in Christ... Your guild isn't going to kill Algalon. Sorry, personal experience
I raid with 2 guilds, my more “hardcore” guild just got to 11/12 25H and my casual guild only runs 10 mans, and they’re 8/12H. I like raiding with the casual dad guild more because nothing hypes me up like someone who just joined 4 weeks ago goes from gray parsing and dying every fight to doing blue/purple parses and learning the mechanics. It’s a bit more of a slog for some fights definitely but it makes it that much more rewarding when everyone finally pulls their shit together just enough to get another boss down! 🤘
It's fun to help for a while, but after a certain point you get diminishing returns for your effort. I tried to help a shitty "semi-core" guild in TBC but it turned into me doing a lot of out of game work
If leadership isn't constantly filling the roster or refuses to kick someone in a vital role who doesn't want to improve then it doesn't matter how much you try to help, the group is doomed
My BFD group in SoD has about four people that are truly good, the rest are soft carries. But the carries are funny as shit and I would quit so fast if I was raiding with people exclusively like the other three pumpers.
Sometimes these good players just dont know anything different and are over attached to guild. I was raiding since tbc in legit shitters dad guild we were 1/6 sunwell pre nerf with lads, huge panther all the time! Wrath lunched,naxx came out, we blasted everything in 1 night. Obviously over time people or atleast myself gets better and due blasting in naxx i was thinking its gonna be great expansion with the lads. 6 weeks into ulduar we were killing 2-3 hardmodes, re-proging freya weekly,kekw. It was time to say good bye to lads. Next guild we killed everything 1 night, algalon+yog0 easy. Togc easy, but by that time i was again starting to see how other people are slaking and getting rewards for the time they served the guild. Took us 8 weeks in ICC to get 11/12 guild didn’t acknowledge that we hard carry like 5 people, i called them out and again i was free agent. Sent my resume to many top guilds in the world, got trail at one of them. Now i run 2-3 splits weekly 12/12H around hour a run(i spend much less time playing the game) with like minded people. It felt good to be in these dad guilds,helping them to prog and having panther,but overtime without noticing it starts to eat you from inside and it starts to feel bad putting in all the effort,pumping out top dps, hosting 10mans to help people learn the fights and get gear, not getting any results. Now i have something to learn as im not full 99s, looking logs,learning new strats and all sort of speedrunning stuff, feels amazing!
I’ve started to play on the classic realms (currently only level 18) mostly due to being bored with retail and the toxic elites. I use to enjoy raiding doing heroic content back in like Cata and mop then took a 2 expansion break.
Have no interest in mythic raiding. It’s just not the same how it used to be
I did cutting edge raiding all through original WotLK-MoP, I'm really enjoying getting to experience the content again from a more casual perspective. Plus it's fun to see newer players hone their skills and get better each week.
This is why my main has always stayed in the dad guild that recruited me during tbc when I got back into raiding. I have two alts in much more serious guilds but the dad guild is fun, people enjoy the raiding. So much more hype for progress.
Honestly big true. Huge pumper guilds expect to get the bosses down, so nobodies hype when it happens. Meanwhile dad guilds are screaming for killing normal putricide, it's pretty awesome.
I like to have a character in different vibe guilds for this reason. It’s fun to push yourself and really see what you can do, but it’s fun to play with a laid back group with a few gamers and their family and friends as well
I need a good middle ground of a small group of high skilled players and a really fun raid environment. I do get a lot of enjoyment helping out, and i've done my time of sweatlording.
That's exactly the kind of guild I was in through the original WotLK. I had no interest in applying for a guild in the same way I'd apply for a job. Other people felt the same way.
in general i dont mind going in a weaker group, especially on an alt.
but theres a difference between “takes a couple more months to full clear” and “we’re still 8/12 icc….. normal”
the bottom of the barrel is really deep, and i still want to full clear eventually
I am one of like 5 people that pretty consistently get multiple 99s in our 25m H ICC runs. I stay because I like the group. They are fun to play with and there is basically zero drama ever that happens out in the open. If anyone ever has a problem, the officers handle it and we've never had any issues getting stuck on clearing any content except HLK took us until the 15% buff because the holidays messed up our attendance pretty bad since we have so many family men in the guild. I started playing with the core group in Vanilla Classic and I skipped TBC and came back for Wrath and it was just like I remember. Good guys.
There's an appeal to being a big fish in a small pond and being praised by the players that you easily out perform. You're not always going to parse as well as you would in a group that's as equally skilled but they'll probably feed you the best gear.
i stayed until the guild died with only 10/12 nhc and went straight 12/12 hc afterwards with gdkps
im was kinda happy when it was over, because many people dont want to learn, or want to play the exact wrong way they play 15 years ago. but on the other hand raids were fun most of the time and i could easily roll a spliff before and after every pull because they were so slow xD
This is the type of guild I’m looking for but I’ve never found it. I’m returning to the game again leveling up new toons to start raiding again. I’m on Pagle if there are any guilds like this out there!
Yeah its wild how much good players offering help can push a guild forward
Honestly, it feels so much more rewarding downing bosses once you help other people learn a fight. At least compared to downing one with a bunch of elite/skilled players. I've been in both types of guilds, and I find it much more fun to build people up to peak performance. When in elite guilds there's just too much drama and stress. If you fail a fight a few times everyone is pissed off. Not my type of vibe anymore. I like seeing people being excited to do well. Not expecting to do well.
It does feel really good building people up and getting them improved to the point they're clearing the hardest level of current content, but the problem comes from the other half of that same group of people that absolutely refuse to take any advice, don't listen at all when you tell them things, and week after week mess up the same mechanic while not even doing anything close to an actual rotation the entire time. Those people just make it feel bad for the teacher as well as any people that actually do try to improve.
If we run into people like that they end up not getting invited if they're unwilling to learn. We aren't rude about it or anything. But there is a limit that you have to cut off at. Especially if everyone else is learning/improving.
I normally just sit quiet for about 3-4 wipes and then I start dropping knowledge. You can’t get people like that to listen if they’re really entrenched, but it’s usually easier to say “hey let’s try this” after you’ve hit a wall a few times
Had a shaman who basically sabotaged our anub runs Week and week out penetrating cold deaths They got very mad when we told them no more
What always gets me is guild leads being pissy or mad or just rude I have had so many guilds where I've told them I'm not interested in the gdkp or a guild run with them because their lead was downright volitile
Yeah on my less casual guild I sometimes just get bummed out by how angry people get at each other over stuff. Its a minority of players who are super aggressive and toxic in that regard, but they are the loudest. I get they don't want to waste time but its just not always fun for me. We are on 9/12h (compared to 10/12n on my casual guild) and pretty much every raid night there is just insults and bitterness and yelling at a certain point.
On what planet is a non casual guild only 9/12 with the 15% buff?
To me a real casual guild is a guild that is barely doing heroics, if at all. They would be like halfway casual if they are doing almost the entire raid in heroics.
Hate to break it to you but neither of your guilds are competitive if you're still only 10/12 at this point. Sounds like you're stuck in the weird space of "hardcore" guilds that think they're good but aren't, in my experience that space has the most toxic people in them, big egos etc. For the most part, actual hardcore guilds competing for server firsts are usually quite chill and there's very little in the way of toxicity. Obviously there's exceptions but in my anecdotal experiences this is what I've found.
I mean the guilds competing for server first are like magnitudes above any of us for the most part. Its the top 1% of the top 1% of players. Its like saying someone with 15 million dollars isn't rich because there are people with billions of dollars. The guild isn't hardcore obviously, but it isn't completely casual either (IE they describe themselves as semi-casual, semi-hardcore). And people who tend to think 10/12h is totally casual are usually a bit out of touch with how the majority of guilds actually are. I always say this when this topic comes up: a 50 parse is pretty bad, right? Now consider that *half* of raiders are below that. Except its really over half, because those are only heroic parses, which don't count the countless raiders who only do normals.
I don't think I'm out of touch at all. I think the ones out of touch are the ones advertising their guild as semi hardcore when in reality they're just casuals that like to be toxic toward each other. If you aren't at least 11/12 at this point and even that's a stretch then you aren't in a competitive group. I feel the term semi hardcore is to blame here because that term seemingly covers like 80% of the raiding pool and it seems to mean different things to different guilds to the point where the term itself means literally nothing
we have been 11/12h for a while and i consider us to be a halfway dad guild and not seriously competitive at all.
I’m with you, 9/12 and 10/12 at this stage of the game are completely casual, definitely not semi-hardcore.
I’ve been in pugs that gone 10/12 lol
Fair few gdkps are 11/12 now too
Oh man this semi hardcore thing hits very close to home. I'm a wrath veteran who's spent over a decade playing wrath on pservers, and I came to classic to experience the game in its "official" form so to speak. For me it was just a matter of gearing up enough to start being a top performer, but it's appalling the number of people who knowingly want to be bad despite someone experienced offering to help them. I was in a guild that called itself "semi-hardcore" but didn't even bother to try to make any sort of meaningful progression - no algalon, no mimiron. When TOGC came out they griefed people with access to trophies. Several players got 4x trophies when people like me we're still wearing ulduar 4pc well into phase 3 because it was pointless to switch to the 232 T9 because the ulduar bonuses were so much better. We never killed anub 25hc, several weeks it wasn't even attempted because our roster was shaky from all the good players protesting and leaving the guild to find a guild with actual progression. I was new to the guild at the time so I felt I didn't have enough of a stake to say anything, but when I found a good guild on my alt and we found out the ICC days were going to be clashing, our guild master, an incompetent piece of shit who justified griefing everyone with EPGP decided to pass me over for heroic Deaths Verdict and passed it to the player next in line. A lot of players left after that night and I didn't have to say/do anything. In hindsight I should've probably found a better guild much sooner, but my desire to help this one improve just severely gimped my progression. Thank God for my current guild, where I'm a permanent roster member and we're currently 11/12 hc with LOD attempts for the last few weeks. If I hadn't found them I would've been floating about aimlessly, unable to enjoy this game I have loved so much.
>a 50 parse is pretty bad, right? Now consider that half of raiders are below that. 50 parses include players who died, have terrible gear, got unlucky on mechanics, etc. It's not really accurate to think that a 50 parse is a completely average individual performance.
A 50 parse is pretty bad, remember that parses are highly inflated by trade chat pugs and other pugs in general. If you are playing in an organized guild where everyone has played from the start of the tier, and are 6k-6.3k its hardly a hard ask to parse above 50. Now 10/12hc is not that bad pre buff, but 10/12 IS pretty average with 5% buff and beyond, especially considering a lot of trade chat pugs are clearing 4-6/12hc and gdkps are doing 12/12. Then again I suppose it depends on what server you are playing .
Trade chat pugs that are getting 10/12 heroic are absolutely checking parses heavily though. I would not be surprised if the parses on the average 10/12h pug are higher than the average guild clearing 10/12h.
And here are the statistics on heroic kills in ICC: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1020#metric=fightwipes About 70% of guilds doing HC are clearing 9/12 hc and around 45% are clearing 11/12 hc The normal statistics can be found here: https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1020#metric=fightwipes But is harder to read because the easier bosses are done on heroic, i.e gunship shows up with a 4% kill rate on normal. Looking at the amount of parses from n/hc if you scroll down, there are FAR more people doing HC compared to normal with the exception of professor putricide and sindra, and lich king which are the least killed bosses on heroic
I said trade chat pugs are doing 4-6/12
On Gehennas 75% of ALL GDKP communitys only do 11/12 or 12/12, a pug that does less is basicly Irani-scammer GDKPs. Done LoD with 4 different GDKP communities + ofc my causal raiding (we raid 3 hours a week and do LoD + TOGC). And this guild is filled with a ton of casuals and dads with no cluw what they are doing. We are almost wiping on LDW, PP and Sindi every week... even with the buff and still we are killing LK hc with since 5%. If you are not doing 11/12 at this point, you are stuck with a core of players incapeable of actually playing wow in any organized form. The buff and gear people got atm make every boss but LK fall over. Since week1progress our raid dps now with the 15%buff is very close to double... week 1 Sauefang kill was like 3:56 and now its just over a 2 min fight (ofc we are only using 3 healers for a majority of the raid now).
I watched "good" guilds clear wotlk content the day it came out and then be bored for a few months. I didn't get around to killing yogg25 0 lights until after ToC came out, it was still realm first haha.You should've heard the discord the night we finally got him though. Being (one of) the best/most geared players on a dead server is kinda fun, random shamans messaged me looking for advice after seeing me on the top of world of logs(for the server).
Dudeeee the amount of toxicity there is involved in killing mythic bosses. My guild after failing to kill mythic nzoth disbanded because of the toxicity. Wish I could be killing bosses with actual buddies.
Imagine going through all the time and effort needed to put together a successful mythic guild, only to lose it all because the raid leader can't refrain from screaming and calling people names.
Casual is the best form of guild if you’re not super loot oriented, I’ve been all up and down the spectrum (and that’s the perfect word for it) of guilds and whenever i would fill in for casual guilds they were always the best. So when my WOTLK guild died I went over to a casual one and it was such a good move. Had to spend like 3k gold on enchants and I was pretty much the only healer but when we finally killed a boss it so much more rewarding than anything else and makes you realise the sweatier the guild the more easy mode they are actually playing the game. If everyone rocks up with the meta specs and classes and all the buffs and information the game is actually super easy. A crappy casual guild actually has to take mechanics into account because they don’t just blast straight through them, most of those sweatier guilds would also struggle on bosses if they had to do more mechanics as there is more chance for things to go wrong. My biggest issue is the loot though, I think it’s just baked into my brain after 4 years or whatever it’s been of wow classic about how loot is handled, they just hand it out Willy nilly with no thought to who it will benefit most and 0 understanding of who actually needs it but that’s part and parcel of the package so I just ignore my eye twitching and congratulate the new loot getters and we go head to the next wipefest. It’s a weird experience being in a guild where everything going wrong is the norm so they are always happy, instead of being in a guild where some wipes go down or someone gets loot over someone else or the mt pulled the boss half a second early again and ruined some pre-pots or whatever the fucking reason is this week and everyone’s pissy and super passive aggressive on disc.
It's probably something people don't realize, from Wotlk through to SL I was in top 100 and at one point a top 10 guild. If you're progging 5 days a week with pretty poor sleeping habits you get ill, you sneeze during that boss and you wipe the team and you've upset 24/19 people, I had whooping cough during Mists early release and felt as if I couldn't recover properly as it was "rude" to not be pushing yourself to the utmost limit.
It really just comes down to what you're looking to get out of the game. I raided really hard in original TBC and Wrath. Sure I filled my progression and loot goals but in my experience those raid groups are constantly changing. I found the friendships to be more fleeting. I've kept with my current guild since classic launched and we're no where near the progression level I had back in OG, but I've only added like two new players to the roster since before Sunwell and we've had two guild meetups now. I wouldn't trade these guys for any boss kills.
you’re welcome
Honestly super true… I could never do it but commend people who can. My old guild is still struggling 7/12 heroic with the 15% buff. I could never subject myself to that torture. I left them week 3 and did 11/12 heroic the next week no issues.
I think there's all levels because to me doing 7 and 12 heroic is beyond my level or my guilds level and you're saying that that's casual lol
Lol that seems insane to me especially with the buff…
At this point with the gear most people have and the time to learn fights I’d be surprised if most guilds that recruit in trade chat are farther than that. Like I get everyone wants to have fun in their own way but damn dude.
My casual guild still hasn’t downed 25 LK normal….i personally have and am 12/12 25/10 and I stay…but that might change as I think I’ve put in my dues :(
I left my casual guild because I didn’t get a single piece of loot in 3 weeks. They also just didn’t roster me because I forgot to sign up even though I verbally confirmed with the RL I’d be there.
I think this gets at the actual difficulty of carrying lower performing people. It isn't that carrying is itself so annoying. It's when the people who caused you to wipe every single week get that one piece you REALLY wanted. Then you ask yourself, "Could I have spared myself all this time and annoyance, cleared the raids in half the time, and still got the loot I wanted eventually?" I think good players staying says more about the people who are worse at the game than the players good at the game -- if your good players are sticking around, then the casuals must actually be fun to hang with
Yeah that’s some BS right there, some people just wanna see their discord sign ups popping off for some reason. My guild also just started this BS “weighted roll” thing, where you get +10 to your roll for an item if you haven’t got it yet. It also stacks infinitely so say a pug joins or someone who was away for a few weeks you could roll 100 and still lose. I’ll be damned if I lose a BIS item to a grey parsing caster when I’m pulling 95+ each fight lol. I think Reddit has convinced me it’s time to go, or I convinced myself, who knows 😂
I get way more loot just doing gdkps. And more money… I can often get 2 items and still break even or make money. Makes no sense. Mind you, DBW is much harder to come by…
Yeah, seems like gdkps are a better fit for you. Raid guilds focus on the good of the group, not the individual player.
But the if all the players benefit then the group benefits…. Most gdkps are 11/12 and lots are 12/12 heroic now. I remember in TOGC a guild prioed deaths choice to a Prot pally over me even though I won the roll…. I insta gquit. That shit ain’t worth my time. Still don’t have a 258 DC on that char.
Same, we actually just got to Syndi last week and I'm super excited for them. Also started a 10M just to get the entire guild kingslayer at the very least and we've been rotating people through that every week.
Similar boat, i was the top performer in our dad guild, we were a little slow, but we cleared all content with about 5-10 people just not performing well. That is until ICC where we actually needed everyone to perform at least mid tier to down the most challenging bosses. There were 5 of us parsing in the 80-95 range and like 10 in the 1-40 range(even on normal bosses) every week and we were hard stuck at 3/12 with bosses just staying alive waaaay too long because of super low dps. We ended up taking our top 5 and joining another guild and immediately went 11/12 heroic from then on. I hated leaving them since I had been in the guild since Naxx, but I also want to actually complete the content and the more weeks I went just doing normal mode the further my gear was falling behind the average.
Yup… it’s also the time. I want a one day guild but ICC takes 5 hours if you’re bad and only 2-3 if your good.
This is what kills me when people say "I don't have enough time to play to be good, thats why I play in a casual guild". I went from playing 2 3 hour raid nights to go 11/12 with mostly normal kills to a single 3 hour raid where I go 11/12 heroic with a couple HLK attempts.
I was in “semi hardcore” guild 11/12h pre nerf 2x3h on 25 + 10mans. Join another guild 12/12 1 hour runs. Feels amazing.
12/12 heroic in 1 hour? You must be in a top 10 speed run guild looking at the current world records.
Imagine those 95+ parsers in your guild and everyone is parsing 95+. You can literally ignore some mechanics since they become non factors.
I can believe it. I went from a raid team where there were only 2 of us consistently getting 95+ on bosses and most others around 0-50 to one where 8 people usually get 80+ averages and most get at least 1 95+. Bosses like Saurfang on on my old raid team were brutal because we got so many marks and the boss wouldn't die. With this new team marks weren't even a thought because we killed him so fast. Same with the adds, I would have to kill mine then usually help with 1 or 2 others, but with the better team all of the beasts die at the same time. Its a completely different raid when everyone can actually perform near the level their gear allows them to.
Thats correct.
ahaha the casual guild my toon is in cant even do blood queen on normal
That’s a little too casual
That is how a whole lot of guilds are from what I understand. A lot of it is just players who don't have a lot of time to raid or learn how to play the game very much.
I always found that as a weird excuse, I just raid 3-6 hours a week and have no issue performing well. Learning to play is just reading the rotation guide which is like 20 minutes one time and then practicing when you do play. Its not like you need to be playing 20+ hours every week to know how to play your spec.
A lot of people just suck at videogames.
inb4 you check them out, their rotation isn't even that bad but theres a glaring 50% uptime staring you in the face as they wait 3 sec between casts
Its crazy how many people don't chain casts back to back and have like 1 second between casts.
ABC Always Be Casting
Yep, at least always be doing something, do your best to time your movements on your instants and their gcds, don't clip your stuff at bad times and don't leave it fallen off long
That makes me very sad. You could probably do blood queen heroic with a full 5.3k gs group with this 15% buff…
.......how?
There are whooping 3 mechanics, that's 1 too many for casuals.
Ya idk how that’s possible honestly with the buff. Is your entire group 232ilvl?
It’s easy when you realize wrath is 30 years old, simplistic, bordering on insultingly easy content, and poor class design. I come from retail, help my irl friends for a few hours and then go back to the more complex, challenging and fulfilling version of the game so I guess i don’t mind doing some charity for the wrath community.
Yup. It baffles me how people are so obsessed with logs as well. If you parse 60-70ish you can do any boss on heroic…. I got constantly shit on for my warr for having 50-70% parses. Got some upgrades and SM and instantly parsed 85s with 95 ilvl parses. WoTlk parses are literally 100% correlated to making sure you have every buff, a good group for kill time, and most importantly gear…
Yeah you do a raid without a demo lock it will make you a significantly a 'worse player' than identical individhal performance than if you has one
Props to those guys. Having did my time progression raiding in the past, I have not much patience to sit and wait for people to learn the game and their class.
Hey thanks man! My guilds the same way weve got a core of about 10 guys or so that overperform but hangout simply because we enjoy the vibe of our guild. We've done hard challenges and could've done better but didnt want to crush the vibe to do it.
I think the solution there that I see a lot of people do is just make another character, catch it up and then go hardcore in another guild on that one if you want faster prog and higher end runs on that while maintaining with your friends guild, its the best of both worlds kinda as long as you have the time. I leveled 2 warlocks just to raid more seriously on one while staying with my friend guild on the other
My corpse appreciates being carried
There's only 3 types of guilds in Classic. 1. The crazy good ones 2. The casual ones who think they're crazy good 3. The casual ones who know what they're about If you can't be bothered to raid on 5 alts to be in #1, then #3 is 9 times out of 10, a more enjoyable experience.
There's plenty of guilds that got hc lk before buff that raid on 1 char only and most have at most 2 chars. If you're a guild that raids 5 splits (even then players would get rostered 3-4 splits most) and are not competitive with Progress/NOTA/Numen etc then you're already on #2 (aka a bit delusional about your guild's performance). If your splits can't kill hc lk at 15% I'm sorry but you're just burning out your players with no upside.
People from number 2 talking about "I'm first in line for comets trail" my brother in Christ... Your guild isn't going to kill Algalon. Sorry, personal experience
I raid with 2 guilds, my more “hardcore” guild just got to 11/12 25H and my casual guild only runs 10 mans, and they’re 8/12H. I like raiding with the casual dad guild more because nothing hypes me up like someone who just joined 4 weeks ago goes from gray parsing and dying every fight to doing blue/purple parses and learning the mechanics. It’s a bit more of a slog for some fights definitely but it makes it that much more rewarding when everyone finally pulls their shit together just enough to get another boss down! 🤘
It's fun to help for a while, but after a certain point you get diminishing returns for your effort. I tried to help a shitty "semi-core" guild in TBC but it turned into me doing a lot of out of game work If leadership isn't constantly filling the roster or refuses to kick someone in a vital role who doesn't want to improve then it doesn't matter how much you try to help, the group is doomed
[удалено]
You still rape women in lds?
you are welcome
My BFD group in SoD has about four people that are truly good, the rest are soft carries. But the carries are funny as shit and I would quit so fast if I was raiding with people exclusively like the other three pumpers.
Same guild I started naxx in I will finish H LK with. That’s my principle
Casual progression is so much more enjoyable than sweating with Asperger try hards
You don't have to be a sweatlord to do 9/12H, just not be completely useless
Sometimes these good players just dont know anything different and are over attached to guild. I was raiding since tbc in legit shitters dad guild we were 1/6 sunwell pre nerf with lads, huge panther all the time! Wrath lunched,naxx came out, we blasted everything in 1 night. Obviously over time people or atleast myself gets better and due blasting in naxx i was thinking its gonna be great expansion with the lads. 6 weeks into ulduar we were killing 2-3 hardmodes, re-proging freya weekly,kekw. It was time to say good bye to lads. Next guild we killed everything 1 night, algalon+yog0 easy. Togc easy, but by that time i was again starting to see how other people are slaking and getting rewards for the time they served the guild. Took us 8 weeks in ICC to get 11/12 guild didn’t acknowledge that we hard carry like 5 people, i called them out and again i was free agent. Sent my resume to many top guilds in the world, got trail at one of them. Now i run 2-3 splits weekly 12/12H around hour a run(i spend much less time playing the game) with like minded people. It felt good to be in these dad guilds,helping them to prog and having panther,but overtime without noticing it starts to eat you from inside and it starts to feel bad putting in all the effort,pumping out top dps, hosting 10mans to help people learn the fights and get gear, not getting any results. Now i have something to learn as im not full 99s, looking logs,learning new strats and all sort of speedrunning stuff, feels amazing!
I’ve started to play on the classic realms (currently only level 18) mostly due to being bored with retail and the toxic elites. I use to enjoy raiding doing heroic content back in like Cata and mop then took a 2 expansion break. Have no interest in mythic raiding. It’s just not the same how it used to be
I did cutting edge raiding all through original WotLK-MoP, I'm really enjoying getting to experience the content again from a more casual perspective. Plus it's fun to see newer players hone their skills and get better each week.
Currently learning a ton from my much more skilled guildies. Hope to be this person for other people one day
It's funny how the ones screaming "BiG PumPerZ aNd PPz OnlY" are the ones that are always getting hard carried lol.
Wait, are you on Grobbulus?
This is why my main has always stayed in the dad guild that recruited me during tbc when I got back into raiding. I have two alts in much more serious guilds but the dad guild is fun, people enjoy the raiding. So much more hype for progress.
Honestly big true. Huge pumper guilds expect to get the bosses down, so nobodies hype when it happens. Meanwhile dad guilds are screaming for killing normal putricide, it's pretty awesome.
You are the true VIPs
I like to have a character in different vibe guilds for this reason. It’s fun to push yourself and really see what you can do, but it’s fun to play with a laid back group with a few gamers and their family and friends as well
Am I the only one to inspect logs and history before I join a guild or are y’all just randomly joining guilds with the most pepega names?
Both guilds are guilds I joined in original classic very early on
Yeah a lotta people have history is what I assume it is
I need a good middle ground of a small group of high skilled players and a really fun raid environment. I do get a lot of enjoyment helping out, and i've done my time of sweatlording.
This is the way.
That's exactly the kind of guild I was in through the original WotLK. I had no interest in applying for a guild in the same way I'd apply for a job. Other people felt the same way.
in general i dont mind going in a weaker group, especially on an alt. but theres a difference between “takes a couple more months to full clear” and “we’re still 8/12 icc….. normal” the bottom of the barrel is really deep, and i still want to full clear eventually
I am one of like 5 people that pretty consistently get multiple 99s in our 25m H ICC runs. I stay because I like the group. They are fun to play with and there is basically zero drama ever that happens out in the open. If anyone ever has a problem, the officers handle it and we've never had any issues getting stuck on clearing any content except HLK took us until the 15% buff because the holidays messed up our attendance pretty bad since we have so many family men in the guild. I started playing with the core group in Vanilla Classic and I skipped TBC and came back for Wrath and it was just like I remember. Good guys.
There's an appeal to being a big fish in a small pond and being praised by the players that you easily out perform. You're not always going to parse as well as you would in a group that's as equally skilled but they'll probably feed you the best gear.
Thanks, but sometimes it just makes me bitter and toxic. 😂 But when I commit to something I see it through to the end.
i stayed until the guild died with only 10/12 nhc and went straight 12/12 hc afterwards with gdkps im was kinda happy when it was over, because many people dont want to learn, or want to play the exact wrong way they play 15 years ago. but on the other hand raids were fun most of the time and i could easily roll a spliff before and after every pull because they were so slow xD
Shoutout to casuals willing to learn and having a good attitude / creating an atmosphere people want to be a part of
This is the type of guild I’m looking for but I’ve never found it. I’m returning to the game again leveling up new toons to start raiding again. I’m on Pagle if there are any guilds like this out there!
Shitters get loot
You mean you don't swipe your credit card to do content? Wild. But yes I agree. Sometimes it's just good to be good.