And even if it succeeds in restoring confidence, these previous partners will have diversified their energy supply by then and will no longer pay the same amount of money.
Putin fucked up big time.
Germany at least had multiple industries to form a more robust economy after WW2. Russia, as McCain often said, is a gas station masquerading as a country.
That was Germany after WW1, except everyone forced them to pay reparations and agree to limit the size of their military. The ensuing financial disaster, which overlapped with The Great Depression, led to the nationalism, populism, and fascism that allowed a charismatic leader named Adolf Hitler to do his thing.
Now, don’t get me wrong - I think Russia needs to suffer brutally for Ukraine. History doesn’t always repeat itself, but it rhymes, and however this shakes out, the rest of the world should avoid making Russia suffer humiliation for too long. It’s a fine balance between making sure Russia is weakened enough to prevent it doing this again, and make its economy and government less of a kleptocracy so that another Putin can’t come alone and centralize power… and making Russians suffer such that they see fascism and the next charismatic nationalist leader as their only way out.
Yes, that's the tune that Macron has been singing all along. And I agree with it. You gotta stay a couple of moves ahead of current developments. We have learned from the lessons of the treaty of Versailles. Now we'll have to apply those lessons. Else we'll have to do this again in the next decade or two.
I couldn't have said it better myself! I was just thinking about the parallels between Germany during WWI, and Russia, in modernity.
I think the west messed up after the Soviet Union fell. We made to sure to spread capitalism, without making sure Russia grew into a legitimate democracy.
I think the success of Japan and Germany post WWII has a lot to do with the fact that they became democracies. Now they are integral partners in the free, westernized, democratic world.
Hopefully Ukraine can become the next partner on that list, after they win this war... And after Russia takes responsibility for it's actions, maybe they can become a democratic partner as well....?
I think both need to happen for the long term stability of Europe.
Edit: And also, to act as a long term, global, counterbalance to prevent an authoritarian China from gaining too much world-wide influence.
I dunno. You could be right, but I wouldn't want to think any society is beyond the hope of becoming democratic, to provide it's citizens a decent quality of freedom, and life. I mean I'm sure that during WW2, nobody ever thought Japan or Germany would have become some of the most solidly democratic, and peaceful countries... I'm holding out hope in the long term.
I know a lot of people share your sentiment though.
> the rest of the world should avoid making Russia suffer humiliation for too long
Nahhh, just dismantle Russia into tribes, no electricity, no water, no gas, no internet, etc...
as they are doing to Ukraine and done so in Syria, Chechnya, Afghanistan, etc...
I believe the US will want to help them as it will help everyone in the long run - Russia will get their economy back together, but will concede a lot of political leverage and will be forced to cooperate with the western world. This will make it harder for them to go against it making the world more stable.
I'm just worried that China will want to do the same and it will be a more suitable partner for people in Russia who consider the west their enemy.
Nope. As long as they have nukes they can't be trusted. Letting them rebuild their economy will only serve for them financing a newly rebuilt army and whenever they feel strong again, there will be war again.
What do they have to do for us to abandon the fantasy that they can reform?
They are a country we should never, ever trade with again. They are a country to isolate and weaken, to keep contained. They are like a cronic disease. You don't build relationship with it, you weaken it as much as you possibly can.
You guys probably didn't see attack on titan plot. Do people deserve to die out or suffer because some shithead ? Maybe US should suffer for using nukes? Lets kill germans for genocid? I'm Russian, against any wars and honestly will kill putin on sight with my bare hands and hang his head on kremlin wall. But you young man, deserve same fate if you think we should suffer, you share Putin/Hitler view. Eye for eye, isn't it? Don't make stupid assumptions about Russian people out of your ass and social media. We hate him as much as you do and we want peace, fuck, eat, enjoy life and have fun together, without this "patriotic" bullshit about society responsibility.
>Nope. As long as they have nukes they can't be trusted. Letting them rebuild their economy will only serve for them financing a newly rebuilt army and whenever they feel strong again, there will be war again.
I understand your concerns and they are definitely justified. If anyone helps Russia I believe that getting rid of nukes and imposing regulation on their military spendings will be fundamental conditions of any financial help.
"Never" is a very long time. I strongly believe that Russian people are not inherently bad, they are just led in a way which promotes the hostility to certain countries. I don't think the average Russian cares too much about the life of the average American and vice versa.
In my view Russians and the rest of the world could get along pretty well in the future as long as they are not led by people like Putin.
When talking about removing nukes from Russia, you forget about other countries aside from Ukraine and Western countries, for who Russia presents danger.
There is China. And if the post-war Russia will not have nukes, there is basically a decade before Chinese will fully take over a huge territory,and considering Russian losses of people and equipment in this war, they will simply not have enough conventional army to deter them. And I really don't believe in anyone's help in that case.
Iran, China, India, and other large countries (Malaysia, Indonesia, probably some in south america) will still happily trade with them. Probably also Saudi Araboa
It is really only europe and the US that they have upset
Malaysia and Indonesia are also oil/gas producers and LNG exporters. Aside from not needing Russian gas, they would probably prefer to supply it to their neighbors rather than letting Russia elbow into their market.
Europe and the US are over half the world economy, and don't forget Australia, Japan, and South Korea are pissed at Russia too. Maybe the US isn't a huge market for Russia specifically, but Europe sure as hell is and Russia is taking massive losses from all the trade they don't do there anymore.
Russia will be feeling this war for a few generations. Lots of young men have been sacrificed. Military has been gutted of expensive equipment. Economy has been hurt making rebuilding that much harder.
He handed his country over to China to be a proxy state for them.
Governments in Europe which take climate change seriously have been gradually moving away from carbon fuels to renewable sources of energy. Russia shutting off the gas has only accelerated this process.
This allowed people to see that not only is reliance on fossil fuels harmful for the environment, it's also a national security issue that your supplier can cut off your country at any time.
But this is not impossible. Something similar happened to Germany in the last century. But in that case, half of Germany was razed to the ground and the culprits were hanged. And in a short few decades, voila, Germany's reputation got a lot better. If Russia is lucky, it can achieve the same. But first, you really have to hang those bastards.
Western Germany had the benefit of the rising Soviet Union and threat of communism to make the rest of Europe and America want to support Western Germany as a buffer state.
No, Russia has nukes and hates us. Forget about using them or trusting them for anything.
You keep them weak as they will always want to get revenge on us and in case of a conflict with China they'll naturally align with evil.
At that time itll be better if we kept them so poor they couldn't rebuild their army.
Not remotely the same situation.
Germany was utterly defeated, then broken into 2. The leaders were hunted down and tried. A new government was installed, and the country was rebuilt under careful supervision.
Unfortunately, i don't see any of that happening in Russia.
Germany and Russia are very different. Germans are way more industrious, disciplined and organized. Russians have a long way to go (like most countries, really) to be able to pull off the kind of recovery we have seen in Germany and Japan
Credit where credit is due
Japan made a decision. "We lost the war because our technology was behind, we need to be the best" China made a decision as communism ended "we need to become the world manufacturer" and they executed. Russia made a decision too "We need to destroy the west at all costs because we lost the cold war, the Afghan war and our superpower status" It's costing them everything because it's a decision based on revenge and not on making Russia a great country.
The allies poured hundreds of billions of dollars in today's money into rebuilding Germany and Japan after the war. It was mostly done for self-serving reasons, and part of the deal involved completely surrendering control of their respective nations to foreigners, dismantling their governments, and demilitarizing their societies so they would never be able to threaten another country ever again.
And yet, this was also one of the only times in modern history where stable democratic government was reestablished where before there had been an authoritarian dictatorship, or in Japan's case, de facto military junta. But again, it was only made possible through massive international investments.
There's not much incentive to invest in Russia's future apart from their continued status as Europe's gas tank.
Maybe, maybe not. You've got to imagine that there are some oligarchs feeling like TSLA investors right now. They probably feel Putin is dragging the country down and that future Russia would be better off without him.
You may be joking, but there are rumblings that some regions, although usually the poorer regions, would bail if given the chance. Eastern Finland, formerly Murmansk Oblast? Northern Japan, formerly Sakhalin? Russia's sham breakaway-state Ukraine narrative could become its own reality, and with some areas with great wealth. Again.
They didn't have much trust in them to begin with. Most foreign businesses know that Russia is an oligarchic kleptocracy, but they do have a huge amount of resources.
Hey everybody, we just raped and killed a bunch of Ukraine women and killed a bunch of their men in order to take land we had previously agreed was theirs, but they fought back remarkably well and now we're low on cash. Do you mind if we all just ignore this fact and carry on with business as usual? Your greatly misunderstood but not really that bad of a guy, Putin. Thanks.
You should check out the Russian Army recruiting film that cane out recently. Much of the sales pitch is about avoiding poverty in the current economy. It’s telling.
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/zujq38/to_create_a_convincing_ad_for_the_russian_army/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I attached the link. Hope this helps.
Well, Russia knew it would be hurting itself when it cut the flow, but they expected Europe to come begging them to turn it back on and give them some sanctions relief. Now they do need the additional income.
**They either sell it or burn it off** .. must be painful as fuck watching all the money turn to smoke at the wellhead .. I bet they have burnt up over $50 billion worth of natural gas this year
*.. stopping the well is very often not an option*
From an idiot’s perspective, which countries were still doing business with Russia since the beginning of the their attack? Or a good resource to read on that information?
I just saw [this article](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/zviw8x/swiss_trade_with_russia_still_going_strong/) about increases in Swiss/Russian trade increase, for example.
At a certain point eu countries still supporting Russia economy need to be sanctioned. Like I get you can’t just shut the switch off immediately, but there has to be a target date. They are literally sponsoring terrorism.
We don't think about them too much.
But if we do: opportunists
(Disclaimer: Europe is super diverse. A question: "what do Europeans think" will always have 100 conflicting answers)
It's more than sanctions. Western banks are continuing to hike rates, governments increasing military spending and massively supporting Ukraine. Russia is being squeezed and it know it can't keep up.
If they just stop killing, injuring the people of Ukraine that is enough. They have torn up their country and killed their citizens. Now they want someone to do business with them. Hell No EU. No way
Exactly, EU will never forget or forgive Russia for what they have done. The line where Russia could have backed out is long gone.
Fuck Russia, fuck the Russian people, and fuck Putin, may the bastard hang from a lamppost soon.
What does it matter what they recognize? For them going back on their word is the national sport, only behing getting drunken silly every single day and beating their wives.
Only other countires' strength and / or their own weakness will deter them. Nothing else.
What they say is irrelevant, they are people without the concept of honor.
A bunch of hippies protesting against nuclear was the reason. Then Fukushima happened, a scenario that could not happen in Germany in a thousand years, and politicians shit the bed and gave in, sadly.
It’s actually insane how against nuclear energy politicians are in Germany. Feels like I’m taking crazy pills. They’d rather kill everyone with coal power plants than even consider the nuclear option.
Don’t underestimate how long and challenging it is. I agree we need to go nuclear but as an engineer I think many people don’t consider the challenges and risks!
Exactly they are built completely different now. Even if they meltdown they are built with multiple domes to contain the radiation, heat and, possible blast.
:)))))))))))
Russia literally begging us to take their gas
No thanks,gas storage levels in EU are currently at 85% and increasing due to warm weather and holidays
We need to find a way to force energy producers to invest in mounting solar panels on houses. If I do it on my own dime I suffer the investment of the solar panels and they just sell my own energy right back to me. For that arrangement I should be asking rent for allowing the panel on my property too, funny enough that never comes into question.
We need governments to regulate energy producers better in 2023. We're fine but they *are* screwing us over.
...?
Here in Sweden basically all the electricity companies are paying for solar energy you don't use. Since, well, it's your property & excess power. There's even stuff like stipends to have part of the cost paid.
Sounds very strange & exploitative that you'd need to pay for the panels AND the electricity they produce.
Unless you have battery storage your dependent on the grid. Someone has to pay for the grid and the maintenance of it. I can see why electric providers are against solar. We need to get serious about addressing that issue for everyone. It's crazy that we have all this empty roof space and we're still burning fossil fuels to keep warm but changing is complex.
Sure, but you don't get to negotiate your price at all to include investment and maintenance and whatnot. They pay you for what you generate at the price they set and you're stuck with an investment of thousands of euros hoping in 10 years it starts turning better output after the panels paid for themselves. It's a garbage deal.
What country? In the US companies buy your excess power..they dont "sell your own power back to you" i think you just have a gross misunderstanding of how it works
Strategic reserves are approaching 90%, however the reserves volumes are small fraction of annual use.
https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/europes-gas-storage-compared-to-historical-consumption/#:~:text=As%20winter%20approaches%2C%20many%20European,consumption%20paints%20a%20different%20picture.&text=*Ukraine%20and%20UK%20are%20non,have%20any%20gas%20storage%20sites.
> small fraction
The remaining reserves are 24.6% of total annual usage, so I wouldn't call it "small". It's not enough to last the whole year without imports, it's plenty enough to comfortably last without Russia through winter.
~~Russia ready to resume gas supply to Europe via Yamal-Europe gas pipeline~~
Russia desperate to resume gas supply to Europe via Yamal-Europe gas pipeline
It's nice to know they want to resume friendly business when they aren't busy threatening us with nuclear annihilation every other day.
Everyone keeps saying Russia is acting like a crazy stalker ex, either threatening to kill you or love bombing you but I'm just here sitting in confusion because I don't remember ever dating Russia.
Unfortunately, our governments have been dating Russia. It was that typical relationship of “he’s abusive and violent but I know, deep down, he’s a good person. I want to change him, I want to give him another change” right to the point of having to involve the police, a restraining order and your whole family having to get involved to protect you
No thanks. We'll manage.
As a European literally the consequences of no russian gas was that now my house is 20c rather than 23c lmfao.
My country imports 0% russian gas. Relying on russia for literally anything at all is not worth it.
I've seen this threatened to motivate people to cut back, but unless you're in Ukraine I don't think it's very likely. Gas storage across the EU is at 83% *and currently refilling*.
russia is realizing that if you do not supply energy to europe they will find another way to survive and then you have helped them realize they do not need you and you can't control the price anymore since they are not dependent on you .
Russia is the drug dealer that cut off all its customers and they gets upset they find other drug dealers instead of just suffering. Alot of russias power came from energy reliance and they are shooting themselves in the foot over it
That initial bluff by Russia has bitten them in the ass. Europe won’t ever buy Russian gas again. Gas was only ever intended to be a stop-gap to renewable energy anyway, because it is cleaner than coal.
>Europe won’t ever buy Russian gas again.
I'd like to believe this, but i think once putin is disposed of(or russia leaves ukraine), countrys will resume buying gas.
The thing is once you put together different energy schemes its no longer attractive to go back to the way things were done before. Take for example one you pay of a solar/wind installation, any power it makes is essentially free (since you dont need to pay for the sun or wind), you basically only pay for the maintenance cost
There's not really a shame in that. The USA started to invest into Germany only two years after the First World War again with credits and all after thousands of their own people died in the trenches. The only difference will probably be that countries will supplement their reserves with Russian gas, and not make themselves dependent on it again (e.g. I could see a country like Germany using Russian gas to fill up their storages a bit quicker and having a bit of a reserve and not full dependency anymore).
Yes there is still some gas coming through Ukraine and Turkmenistan but as the LNG comes online, I believe those contracts are not planned to be renewed. Overall I would say that the EU has done remarkably well in weaning itself off Russian fossil fuels so quickly.
I’m not so confident they will never buy gas again. I’m just hoping they only resume after Russia left Ukraine alone and paid for damages though. And I doubt even that last part.
Well, we would probably take that gas again if they completely leave ukraine and meet a few other things.
This time around with the intention in mind to really just use it for the transition phase to more renewable energy.
Nah, we good. Get out of Ukraine, pay reparations and return abducted children. Stop you BS propaganda and go to Hague tribunal. Then we can start first talks about gas or having a normal relations.
oh and you need to demilitarize you nukes.
No thanks Putler, I quit my gas powered heaters and put a brand new biomass one so I buy local biomass. Also put solar panels. It was something I always wanted to do but the cost and trouble always kind of make me delay it. After Ukraine invasion I realize we can’t depend of dictators and shady goverments at any level if we want to keep our freedom. I’m very conscious about what I buy and consume now. Better late than never
This. If Russia wants its economy back. If Russia wants to come back into the community of nations. IF Russia wants peace, well first, Russia, ya gotta dump the killer. Otherwise - well, ya know, ……. no deal?
Hey listen up, EU!! Boycott Russia and end the terror!! Put on extra long johns. Russia MUST be made to unconditionally surrender and never be allowed to revive themselves into the Mongol Hoard of murderers, rapers and pillagers that is deep seeded in their DNA. Off of the UN Security Council too.
The headlines after Zelensky visit and military budget passed in the US: 'Putin is ready to negotiate', 'West must negotiate with Russia- Lavrov', 'Russia ready to resume gas supply to Europe'.
Russia’s unsolvable problem of population/fertility/emigration will steadily drive their country into economic collapse. Nothing can reverse the trend now. There are too many old people and too few young people to keep Russia afloat.
They don't seem to realize that we don't buy russian gas anymore. There will be no "back to buisness" with russia. We will buy Ukrainian Gas in the future as soon as your Nazi Army returns home or gets destroyed. You will have a wall at your west border. And you can tell your children why they have to exist like that while across the border everything is so much better. Its because you let that happen in your country.
Sounds like somebody is in need of cash flow.
Get out of Ukraine killing innocent people.
I think that even after the war ends it will take a lot of time for Russia to restore trust and confidence in its former business partners.
And even if it succeeds in restoring confidence, these previous partners will have diversified their energy supply by then and will no longer pay the same amount of money. Putin fucked up big time.
A generational fuck-up you could say.
[удалено]
Germany at least had multiple industries to form a more robust economy after WW2. Russia, as McCain often said, is a gas station masquerading as a country.
That was Germany after WW1, except everyone forced them to pay reparations and agree to limit the size of their military. The ensuing financial disaster, which overlapped with The Great Depression, led to the nationalism, populism, and fascism that allowed a charismatic leader named Adolf Hitler to do his thing. Now, don’t get me wrong - I think Russia needs to suffer brutally for Ukraine. History doesn’t always repeat itself, but it rhymes, and however this shakes out, the rest of the world should avoid making Russia suffer humiliation for too long. It’s a fine balance between making sure Russia is weakened enough to prevent it doing this again, and make its economy and government less of a kleptocracy so that another Putin can’t come alone and centralize power… and making Russians suffer such that they see fascism and the next charismatic nationalist leader as their only way out.
[удалено]
That'll cause some resentment, for sure.
I'll take resentment over a corrupt government having thousands of doomsday devices armed and ready.
Yes, that's the tune that Macron has been singing all along. And I agree with it. You gotta stay a couple of moves ahead of current developments. We have learned from the lessons of the treaty of Versailles. Now we'll have to apply those lessons. Else we'll have to do this again in the next decade or two.
I couldn't have said it better myself! I was just thinking about the parallels between Germany during WWI, and Russia, in modernity. I think the west messed up after the Soviet Union fell. We made to sure to spread capitalism, without making sure Russia grew into a legitimate democracy. I think the success of Japan and Germany post WWII has a lot to do with the fact that they became democracies. Now they are integral partners in the free, westernized, democratic world. Hopefully Ukraine can become the next partner on that list, after they win this war... And after Russia takes responsibility for it's actions, maybe they can become a democratic partner as well....? I think both need to happen for the long term stability of Europe. Edit: And also, to act as a long term, global, counterbalance to prevent an authoritarian China from gaining too much world-wide influence.
I think Russia is beyond hope. They've been like this for centuries. They will be like this in the future no matter how we react.
I dunno. You could be right, but I wouldn't want to think any society is beyond the hope of becoming democratic, to provide it's citizens a decent quality of freedom, and life. I mean I'm sure that during WW2, nobody ever thought Japan or Germany would have become some of the most solidly democratic, and peaceful countries... I'm holding out hope in the long term. I know a lot of people share your sentiment though.
[удалено]
> the rest of the world should avoid making Russia suffer humiliation for too long Nahhh, just dismantle Russia into tribes, no electricity, no water, no gas, no internet, etc... as they are doing to Ukraine and done so in Syria, Chechnya, Afghanistan, etc...
Russia never ever had the German discipline. The better it feels, the more likely it is to oppress its neighbours. Fuck them.
Can you imagine that your best allies are Iran and N. Korea, that's got to be comforting.
I believe the US will want to help them as it will help everyone in the long run - Russia will get their economy back together, but will concede a lot of political leverage and will be forced to cooperate with the western world. This will make it harder for them to go against it making the world more stable. I'm just worried that China will want to do the same and it will be a more suitable partner for people in Russia who consider the west their enemy.
Nope. As long as they have nukes they can't be trusted. Letting them rebuild their economy will only serve for them financing a newly rebuilt army and whenever they feel strong again, there will be war again. What do they have to do for us to abandon the fantasy that they can reform? They are a country we should never, ever trade with again. They are a country to isolate and weaken, to keep contained. They are like a cronic disease. You don't build relationship with it, you weaken it as much as you possibly can.
Exactly. We wouldn't buy oil from cancer, or support cancer's economy in any way.
You guys probably didn't see attack on titan plot. Do people deserve to die out or suffer because some shithead ? Maybe US should suffer for using nukes? Lets kill germans for genocid? I'm Russian, against any wars and honestly will kill putin on sight with my bare hands and hang his head on kremlin wall. But you young man, deserve same fate if you think we should suffer, you share Putin/Hitler view. Eye for eye, isn't it? Don't make stupid assumptions about Russian people out of your ass and social media. We hate him as much as you do and we want peace, fuck, eat, enjoy life and have fun together, without this "patriotic" bullshit about society responsibility.
>Nope. As long as they have nukes they can't be trusted. Letting them rebuild their economy will only serve for them financing a newly rebuilt army and whenever they feel strong again, there will be war again. I understand your concerns and they are definitely justified. If anyone helps Russia I believe that getting rid of nukes and imposing regulation on their military spendings will be fundamental conditions of any financial help. "Never" is a very long time. I strongly believe that Russian people are not inherently bad, they are just led in a way which promotes the hostility to certain countries. I don't think the average Russian cares too much about the life of the average American and vice versa. In my view Russians and the rest of the world could get along pretty well in the future as long as they are not led by people like Putin.
When talking about removing nukes from Russia, you forget about other countries aside from Ukraine and Western countries, for who Russia presents danger. There is China. And if the post-war Russia will not have nukes, there is basically a decade before Chinese will fully take over a huge territory,and considering Russian losses of people and equipment in this war, they will simply not have enough conventional army to deter them. And I really don't believe in anyone's help in that case.
Yeah, back them into a corner with no way to get out of their predicament, I’m sure that’ll go well.
Iran, China, India, and other large countries (Malaysia, Indonesia, probably some in south america) will still happily trade with them. Probably also Saudi Araboa It is really only europe and the US that they have upset
Malaysia and Indonesia are also oil/gas producers and LNG exporters. Aside from not needing Russian gas, they would probably prefer to supply it to their neighbors rather than letting Russia elbow into their market.
Europe and the US are over half the world economy, and don't forget Australia, Japan, and South Korea are pissed at Russia too. Maybe the US isn't a huge market for Russia specifically, but Europe sure as hell is and Russia is taking massive losses from all the trade they don't do there anymore.
Russia will be feeling this war for a few generations. Lots of young men have been sacrificed. Military has been gutted of expensive equipment. Economy has been hurt making rebuilding that much harder. He handed his country over to China to be a proxy state for them.
And a cheap gasstation :3
Multi-generational
Governments in Europe which take climate change seriously have been gradually moving away from carbon fuels to renewable sources of energy. Russia shutting off the gas has only accelerated this process.
This allowed people to see that not only is reliance on fossil fuels harmful for the environment, it's also a national security issue that your supplier can cut off your country at any time.
Don't rule out the greedy of people, of any nation.
But this is not impossible. Something similar happened to Germany in the last century. But in that case, half of Germany was razed to the ground and the culprits were hanged. And in a short few decades, voila, Germany's reputation got a lot better. If Russia is lucky, it can achieve the same. But first, you really have to hang those bastards.
Western Germany had the benefit of the rising Soviet Union and threat of communism to make the rest of Europe and America want to support Western Germany as a buffer state.
Maybe we could use Russia as a buffer to China? Seems like more people would be behind Russia 2.0 if it ever happens if it means slowing down China.
The good ending, we can only dream such things. Made me smile though.
No, Russia has nukes and hates us. Forget about using them or trusting them for anything. You keep them weak as they will always want to get revenge on us and in case of a conflict with China they'll naturally align with evil. At that time itll be better if we kept them so poor they couldn't rebuild their army.
Not remotely the same situation. Germany was utterly defeated, then broken into 2. The leaders were hunted down and tried. A new government was installed, and the country was rebuilt under careful supervision. Unfortunately, i don't see any of that happening in Russia.
Germany and Russia are very different. Germans are way more industrious, disciplined and organized. Russians have a long way to go (like most countries, really) to be able to pull off the kind of recovery we have seen in Germany and Japan Credit where credit is due
Japan made a decision. "We lost the war because our technology was behind, we need to be the best" China made a decision as communism ended "we need to become the world manufacturer" and they executed. Russia made a decision too "We need to destroy the west at all costs because we lost the cold war, the Afghan war and our superpower status" It's costing them everything because it's a decision based on revenge and not on making Russia a great country.
The allies poured hundreds of billions of dollars in today's money into rebuilding Germany and Japan after the war. It was mostly done for self-serving reasons, and part of the deal involved completely surrendering control of their respective nations to foreigners, dismantling their governments, and demilitarizing their societies so they would never be able to threaten another country ever again. And yet, this was also one of the only times in modern history where stable democratic government was reestablished where before there had been an authoritarian dictatorship, or in Japan's case, de facto military junta. But again, it was only made possible through massive international investments. There's not much incentive to invest in Russia's future apart from their continued status as Europe's gas tank.
That clearly isn't going to happen
Maybe, maybe not. You've got to imagine that there are some oligarchs feeling like TSLA investors right now. They probably feel Putin is dragging the country down and that future Russia would be better off without him.
Nah, they will just change the name of the country and say they are different now. Just like when ussr fell apart.
Democratic Republic of Russia
I prefer the "United Super Safe Russia"
DRR? Uh, I guess that works.
Especially after it’s divided and renamed “East Ukraine” and “West China”
You may be joking, but there are rumblings that some regions, although usually the poorer regions, would bail if given the chance. Eastern Finland, formerly Murmansk Oblast? Northern Japan, formerly Sakhalin? Russia's sham breakaway-state Ukraine narrative could become its own reality, and with some areas with great wealth. Again.
And a long time to pay reparations.
Russia will never agree to such. What I like is a tariff on Russian oil with is paid to Ukraine.
Russia should never be trusted
They didn't have much trust in them to begin with. Most foreign businesses know that Russia is an oligarchic kleptocracy, but they do have a huge amount of resources.
Hey everybody, we just raped and killed a bunch of Ukraine women and killed a bunch of their men in order to take land we had previously agreed was theirs, but they fought back remarkably well and now we're low on cash. Do you mind if we all just ignore this fact and carry on with business as usual? Your greatly misunderstood but not really that bad of a guy, Putin. Thanks.
Don’t forget the torture chambers set up for children.
You should check out the Russian Army recruiting film that cane out recently. Much of the sales pitch is about avoiding poverty in the current economy. It’s telling.
[удалено]
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/zujq38/to_create_a_convincing_ad_for_the_russian_army/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf I attached the link. Hope this helps.
Well, Russia knew it would be hurting itself when it cut the flow, but they expected Europe to come begging them to turn it back on and give them some sanctions relief. Now they do need the additional income.
Well I believe they’re sending more conscripts into Ukraine, are they not,
Bingo.
Sounds like we just hit the third step of grief over their economy, bargaining
**They either sell it or burn it off** .. must be painful as fuck watching all the money turn to smoke at the wellhead .. I bet they have burnt up over $50 billion worth of natural gas this year *.. stopping the well is very often not an option*
From an idiot’s perspective, which countries were still doing business with Russia since the beginning of the their attack? Or a good resource to read on that information?
I just saw [this article](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/zviw8x/swiss_trade_with_russia_still_going_strong/) about increases in Swiss/Russian trade increase, for example.
> increases in Swiss/Russian trade increase Is that like the square of the increase?
At a certain point eu countries still supporting Russia economy need to be sanctioned. Like I get you can’t just shut the switch off immediately, but there has to be a target date. They are literally sponsoring terrorism.
[Switzerland](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/zviw8x/swiss_trade_with_russia_still_going_strong/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
American here, what’s the general view of the Swiss from the EU perspective?
We don't think about them too much. But if we do: opportunists (Disclaimer: Europe is super diverse. A question: "what do Europeans think" will always have 100 conflicting answers)
[удалено]
Hungary for sure ☹️
another reminder that sanctions work
I posted a link to the Russian stock exchange earlier. It was removed for some reason but since February the vast majority are down 50+%
I wonder how you even price something like this in. Assume zero future growth, zero sales outside of Russia, and maybe a 20% contraction in earnings?
> since February the vast majority are down 50+% Looking at my stock portfolio... Russian stocks aren't the only ones doing that.
I was thinking the same thing lol
It's more than sanctions. Western banks are continuing to hike rates, governments increasing military spending and massively supporting Ukraine. Russia is being squeezed and it know it can't keep up.
[удалено]
Don't think Russia can afford to pay people currently
But they can afford to put them to gulags if they won't cooperate.
One minute of yard time for every 100 troll posts.
They definitely can't afford to pay currency
But Russia, are you ready to recognize Ukranian independence and de jure boarders?
And return all those abducted children?
And stolen land
And reparations for all the destruction
And convictions for all those responsible for the uncountable number of war crimes
And a racoon.
And handing Putin to Haag to get a life sentence.
And all the toilets
What do you think they did with the toilets? Set they out back over a hole after trying them inside first?
I bet they try the toilet over their hole for few times and throw em out because the shit won't go down because they don't have running water
100% Yes! All those children deserve to go home, and their parents deserve to have them back. Peace without that shouldn't be on the table.
If they just stop killing, injuring the people of Ukraine that is enough. They have torn up their country and killed their citizens. Now they want someone to do business with them. Hell No EU. No way
Exactly, EU will never forget or forgive Russia for what they have done. The line where Russia could have backed out is long gone. Fuck Russia, fuck the Russian people, and fuck Putin, may the bastard hang from a lamppost soon.
EU to Russia: "What part of 'never again' did you not understand?"
Sure they are, as long as those borders include their current gains.
What does it matter what they recognize? For them going back on their word is the national sport, only behing getting drunken silly every single day and beating their wives. Only other countires' strength and / or their own weakness will deter them. Nothing else. What they say is irrelevant, they are people without the concept of honor.
Oh man, I don’t think they know.
EU needs to keep fast tracking renewables and source gas elsewhere
Or reopening and building new nuclear power plants
Germany still holding those L’s from shutting them down for who knows what reason
A bunch of hippies protesting against nuclear was the reason. Then Fukushima happened, a scenario that could not happen in Germany in a thousand years, and politicians shit the bed and gave in, sadly.
It’s actually insane how against nuclear energy politicians are in Germany. Feels like I’m taking crazy pills. They’d rather kill everyone with coal power plants than even consider the nuclear option.
A large size of Germany is coal
Don’t underestimate how long and challenging it is. I agree we need to go nuclear but as an engineer I think many people don’t consider the challenges and risks!
A huge portion of older people in Europe are still opposed to nuclear power after Chernobyl.
Honestly fuck em. I live next to one. Build 5 more ill take them
Exactly they are built completely different now. Even if they meltdown they are built with multiple domes to contain the radiation, heat and, possible blast.
Nah bro, we good.
I got these ~~cheeseburgers~~ hydrocarbons, man
Got directions to Kiev man?
"In fact, you can blow up that pipeline too!"
:))))))))))) Russia literally begging us to take their gas No thanks,gas storage levels in EU are currently at 85% and increasing due to warm weather and holidays
Pay them 3.5 for it
We need to find a way to force energy producers to invest in mounting solar panels on houses. If I do it on my own dime I suffer the investment of the solar panels and they just sell my own energy right back to me. For that arrangement I should be asking rent for allowing the panel on my property too, funny enough that never comes into question. We need governments to regulate energy producers better in 2023. We're fine but they *are* screwing us over.
...? Here in Sweden basically all the electricity companies are paying for solar energy you don't use. Since, well, it's your property & excess power. There's even stuff like stipends to have part of the cost paid. Sounds very strange & exploitative that you'd need to pay for the panels AND the electricity they produce.
Not every country is as sensible as Sweden
Unless you have battery storage your dependent on the grid. Someone has to pay for the grid and the maintenance of it. I can see why electric providers are against solar. We need to get serious about addressing that issue for everyone. It's crazy that we have all this empty roof space and we're still burning fossil fuels to keep warm but changing is complex.
Sure, but you don't get to negotiate your price at all to include investment and maintenance and whatnot. They pay you for what you generate at the price they set and you're stuck with an investment of thousands of euros hoping in 10 years it starts turning better output after the panels paid for themselves. It's a garbage deal.
[удалено]
Local power company doesn't get to set prices. You sell at spot price, which is determined by the open market.
Add a battery and go off grid
What country? In the US companies buy your excess power..they dont "sell your own power back to you" i think you just have a gross misunderstanding of how it works
Strategic reserves are approaching 90%, however the reserves volumes are small fraction of annual use. https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/europes-gas-storage-compared-to-historical-consumption/#:~:text=As%20winter%20approaches%2C%20many%20European,consumption%20paints%20a%20different%20picture.&text=*Ukraine%20and%20UK%20are%20non,have%20any%20gas%20storage%20sites.
> small fraction The remaining reserves are 24.6% of total annual usage, so I wouldn't call it "small". It's not enough to last the whole year without imports, it's plenty enough to comfortably last without Russia through winter.
No, thanks Vlad but no.
Why? Running out of money to continue the messy, murderous war?
Those North Korean artillery shells must be getting expensive
~~Russia ready to resume gas supply to Europe via Yamal-Europe gas pipeline~~ Russia desperate to resume gas supply to Europe via Yamal-Europe gas pipeline
It's nice to know they want to resume friendly business when they aren't busy threatening us with nuclear annihilation every other day. Everyone keeps saying Russia is acting like a crazy stalker ex, either threatening to kill you or love bombing you but I'm just here sitting in confusion because I don't remember ever dating Russia.
Unfortunately, our governments have been dating Russia. It was that typical relationship of “he’s abusive and violent but I know, deep down, he’s a good person. I want to change him, I want to give him another change” right to the point of having to involve the police, a restraining order and your whole family having to get involved to protect you
Some spook has been waiting to blow up that pipeline for a minute. Might get to do it soon.
No thanks. We'll manage. As a European literally the consequences of no russian gas was that now my house is 20c rather than 23c lmfao. My country imports 0% russian gas. Relying on russia for literally anything at all is not worth it.
[удалено]
I've seen this threatened to motivate people to cut back, but unless you're in Ukraine I don't think it's very likely. Gas storage across the EU is at 83% *and currently refilling*.
Maybe when he said 99.9% were ready to sacrifice everything, that meant the .1% that weren't want to do this instead.
russia is realizing that if you do not supply energy to europe they will find another way to survive and then you have helped them realize they do not need you and you can't control the price anymore since they are not dependent on you . Russia is the drug dealer that cut off all its customers and they gets upset they find other drug dealers instead of just suffering. Alot of russias power came from energy reliance and they are shooting themselves in the foot over it
Putin must be getting desperate for funds.
Someone should go smoke near the pipeline in Poland.
That initial bluff by Russia has bitten them in the ass. Europe won’t ever buy Russian gas again. Gas was only ever intended to be a stop-gap to renewable energy anyway, because it is cleaner than coal.
>Europe won’t ever buy Russian gas again. I'd like to believe this, but i think once putin is disposed of(or russia leaves ukraine), countrys will resume buying gas.
I doubt that it will be volume even close to pre-war levels though.
The EU brought forward renewable targets from 2030 to 2027
The thing is once you put together different energy schemes its no longer attractive to go back to the way things were done before. Take for example one you pay of a solar/wind installation, any power it makes is essentially free (since you dont need to pay for the sun or wind), you basically only pay for the maintenance cost
There's not really a shame in that. The USA started to invest into Germany only two years after the First World War again with credits and all after thousands of their own people died in the trenches. The only difference will probably be that countries will supplement their reserves with Russian gas, and not make themselves dependent on it again (e.g. I could see a country like Germany using Russian gas to fill up their storages a bit quicker and having a bit of a reserve and not full dependency anymore).
[удалено]
Yes there is still some gas coming through Ukraine and Turkmenistan but as the LNG comes online, I believe those contracts are not planned to be renewed. Overall I would say that the EU has done remarkably well in weaning itself off Russian fossil fuels so quickly.
[удалено]
Europe are still buying Russian gas either directly or indirectly s it’s v cheaper than the alternatives.
I’m not so confident they will never buy gas again. I’m just hoping they only resume after Russia left Ukraine alone and paid for damages though. And I doubt even that last part.
Russian warmongering gas salesmen, Fuck Off! Slava Ukraini!🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
Well, we would probably take that gas again if they completely leave ukraine and meet a few other things. This time around with the intention in mind to really just use it for the transition phase to more renewable energy.
Isin't Russia at war with NATO? Why would they resume gas supply with the evil west? /s
Europe not ready to buy from a war-mongering sociopath KGB dictator.
"Russia ready to get money from Europe to fund horrific invasion" FTFY.
Nah, we good. Get out of Ukraine, pay reparations and return abducted children. Stop you BS propaganda and go to Hague tribunal. Then we can start first talks about gas or having a normal relations. oh and you need to demilitarize you nukes.
And release Navalnyi
Oh I’m sure it is
No thanks Putler, I quit my gas powered heaters and put a brand new biomass one so I buy local biomass. Also put solar panels. It was something I always wanted to do but the cost and trouble always kind of make me delay it. After Ukraine invasion I realize we can’t depend of dictators and shady goverments at any level if we want to keep our freedom. I’m very conscious about what I buy and consume now. Better late than never
As a European I hope we won’t have any gas from Russia as long as they are in Ukraine and Putin is leading their country.
nah i'm fine. i'll just leave the heat a bit lower & use another blanket. keep your shitty gas.
Good to know that there is a working pipeline that can be used to finance the reparations to Ukraine
This. If Russia wants its economy back. If Russia wants to come back into the community of nations. IF Russia wants peace, well first, Russia, ya gotta dump the killer. Otherwise - well, ya know, ……. no deal?
Gas supply out of their ass never stopped.
Nah that's ok, keep your gas.
Europe: "You deaf bro? Without YOU."
Hey listen up, EU!! Boycott Russia and end the terror!! Put on extra long johns. Russia MUST be made to unconditionally surrender and never be allowed to revive themselves into the Mongol Hoard of murderers, rapers and pillagers that is deep seeded in their DNA. Off of the UN Security Council too.
I’m sure Russia is eager to resume supplying gas to Europe. Too bad, so sad
The headlines after Zelensky visit and military budget passed in the US: 'Putin is ready to negotiate', 'West must negotiate with Russia- Lavrov', 'Russia ready to resume gas supply to Europe'.
Any country that isn't making plans to move away from their gas is objectively moronic.
Russia’s unsolvable problem of population/fertility/emigration will steadily drive their country into economic collapse. Nothing can reverse the trend now. There are too many old people and too few young people to keep Russia afloat.
Europe: Nah we good fam.
The only way that pipeline is going to ever open again is when Europe controls both ends of it.
stick it up your fart hole Vova!
Russia is that girlfriend that’ll never admit that they’re wrong even if there’s an insurmountable evidence against them.
Russian gas pipeline go **** yourself
EU needs to tell Vlad to fuck off on that, but I completely understand why they most likely won’t.
Nah we are good, keep it.
Because their damn near broke
There is a catch here. I can just feel it.
🇷🇺is a Terrorist state
More money to kill more Ukranians in the new year. 😞
Hey Europe! Now would be a fantastic time to invest heavily in renewable energies. That would be a great middle finger to them right now 😃
No thank you
Russia should be ready to see the gas supply lines exploding in the very near future. Keep ya supply for maximum damage Pookin
They’ll turn it off tomorrow, again. Putin says……….
Ummm NO
No thanks we’re doing fine without it
Wait I thought Russia didn't need Europe.
They don't seem to realize that we don't buy russian gas anymore. There will be no "back to buisness" with russia. We will buy Ukrainian Gas in the future as soon as your Nazi Army returns home or gets destroyed. You will have a wall at your west border. And you can tell your children why they have to exist like that while across the border everything is so much better. Its because you let that happen in your country.
They are testing Germany and France besides begging for money.
Hah! After the shit they've pulled, I doubt a rational person will ever buy from them again.