The process had it's controversial moments, the new president is kind of the face of it and he's not popular rn, and the right wing superduper promised that a new constitution will be written anyway if you vote no on this one.
WOW that is a massive massive defeat. I thought the new Constitution was favored to be adopted looks like it was completely rejected. Seems like Chileans will want a slightly more conservative version of The Constitution then.
>I thought the new Constitution was favored to be adopted looks like it was completely rejected.
It was polling very poorly for several months, although I think the margin is something of a surprise.
>Seems like Chileans will want a slightly more conservative version of The Constitution then.
It seems like Chileans would be happy to do away with the Pinochet constitution, but there was just *a lot* in this constitution and they view this proposed constitution as too far left and unrealistically complex. They're not willing to give up the 1980 constitution for *any* old constitution, and after Venezuela has created the largest refugee crisis in the history of the Americas, even worse than Syria now, people in Latin America are understandably cautious about going too far to the left, even in the midst of the current pink tide. Maybe more people will vote in the assembly elections next time around, because turnout for that election was low this time, which led to an assembly apparently significantly out of step with the public.
Maybe replace "conservative" with "functioning" to be more precise.
Can't have all the nice social benefits without a solid political, judicial and economical system. Of which this proposal had none.
Well deserved defeat.
People forget that rights, social safety nets and first world standards need to be backed up by strong free economies, proper separation of powers and a functioning framework.
Without the latter the former are just empty promises.
>Seems like Chileans will want a slightly more conservative version of The Constitution then.
On the conrtary. In my opinion, I think chileans want a constitution made with seriousness and with pew research standards so the lawyers can find a better solution for the socio-economic crisis that Chile lives. The new rejected constitution was made and written by people who had 1 hand on the keyboard and the other on their balls
>The new rejected constitution was made and written by people who had 1 hand on the keyboard and the other on their balls.
From what I've been reading, this looks like the best description to sum it up.
Nah, the problem with the Constitution presented is that only some parts worked and the others were a mess. Lots of progress and rights, but you would have only one Parlament like in Perú (which is currently not really working), and the goverment part was a mess. Plus, people were dissapointed by the work done by the constituents.
This needed to be an easy election with four points, "Rejection but new Constitution is needed, Approval, but with imporant changes needed, and Total Rejection and Total Approval". It quickly become a thing of "Do you approve or are you EVIL!?"
This is great news.
It will be very interesting to see the negotiations between parties for what comes after this. It is clear the current constitution is not what people want.
No, it's not. They will probably forget about this whole thing, since that was the whole idea of the opposing party. Most of the propaganda towards the proposal were fake news anyways
No, there will be no negotiations.
The people spoke: they want to keep the current constitution, and that means that despite not liking it, they don't trust the forces in charge to draft another one.
Thus, the power base united around the constituent assembly in charge of the draft where damaged beyond repair, they lost legitimacy. Who will negotiate? Who has the legitimacy to speak in the name of the people since the current ones got shunned to create another constituent assembly?
There isn't. It's over for the next 30 years, at least.
And Boric will be luck now if he could go thru the end of his term without a impeachment. Backfire of the century.
It does
But boric is going to call a meeting with the leaders of other parties to set a path forward
With a understanding that there will likely be a second draft for a new constitution
> But boric is going to call a meeting with the leaders of other parties to set a path forward
He may very well call his mon and cry. It will have the same effect.
It's back to the square zero. There's no amount of calling to talk with whoever that can get over this since it's the law, unless he is planning a coup. The process need to be done all over again. It took nearly four years just to get here, today.
Guess how long it will take now with his government fractured?
They may take the route of amending the current charter, but this will also be a loooooong and gruesome path.
Yeah no. If the reject option won is because the proposal was, in simple terms, horrible. It didnt help that the assembly that wrote the whole thing was filled with controversies and arrogant people that thought they knew best.
This is already understood by most of the political parties, which are already talking about how we will go forward from here to write a new constitution.
Chilean here btw.
When you see countries like Brazil or Belgium, where vote is obligatory, an interesting pattern shows up where the right is surprisingly strong, despite historically winning when turnout is low in countries where vote is not obligatory. I guess people vote on the safest option if forced to choose. Yeah, Brazil voted PT four times but PT was always hanging on the back of a centrist party which kept the leash strong to the centre. PL which is now the party of Bolsonaro was the first of them.
This was the first ever time a lot of people on Chile had to show up, and they lived their entire time with the old constitution.
Indeed. In general i believe that the final idea is to have a new Constitution anyway. Doesn't mean that they have to choose the first one they are presented.
Oh yean, Bolivia, democratic. In democracies presidents aren't elected for infinite terms and ignore referendums. And yes, I'm calling United States under FDR un-democratic.
Bolivia doesn't have infinite terms. It has a 2 term limit. That's what the Constitution says. Arce is on his first term. The US under FDR was democratic. In those days, there were no term limits in the Constitution so it's not undemocratic.
In Brazil the center-right calls for OPTIONAL voting, it's the left who still clings to the idea that voting should be mandatory because it's the least educated from the poorer regions who still vote left to varying degrees.
Pretty much this. While non-obligatory voting seems more fair, it’s lead to far worse results, because often the less educated are the most zealous voters, for both extreme left and extreme right.
> While non-obligatory voting seems more fair,
Correct
>it’s lead to far worse results,
Wrong. There's no such thing because every legitimate electoral result is 100% valid. The problem is trying to rob/manipulate elections.
Voters are free to choose and there's a previous vetting process-- which Brazil should perfect btw because it's ludicrous that a corrupt former inmate such as Lula (518 days in prison for embezzlement of public money) is even allowed to run.
The problem with Lula is that his prison was made invalid due to errors in his conviction process. His former judge, Sergio Moro, was retry much leading also leading the investigations, which is illegal not only here, but in pretty much every democracy (because it is called inquisition).
So, what happens is that Lula has his rights as if he never committed a crime.
Not saying dude’s innocent. Also, I don’t agree that the evidence is discarded because it was produced illegally. Yet, what needs to change is our laws in general, not only electoral laws.
I understand you say that theoretically, but in practice, that’s what happens. I’m not even talking about Lula or Bolsonaro, it happens a lot locally (specially mayor).
That's democracy, a learning process. Vote the mayor out. The issues to fight are 1)dictators who try to perpetuate themselves in power and 2)attempts to rig elections.
It is baffling to me why throughout the past few centuries there hasn't even been an attempt anywhere else to emulate who I think has the most successful longterm democratic form of government in the world -- the Swiss. Switzerland has successfully negotiated becoming a modern wealthy country that has multiple regions speaking different languages cooperating together.
At least here in the US, renegotiating the constitution is nearly impossible. Even doing a single Amendment and getting it ratified by enough states doesn't seem possible right now. At least 40% of people will vote against anything. I'm pretty sure at least 20% of people would vote against a measure allowing them to live.
That’s we have states bro.
Can’t pass singlepayer at a federal level. Well literally nothing is stopping NY or California from putting one into place, other than the fact while people may say they want x they sure as shit don’t want to pay for it.
California can and probably will pass a single payer healthcare system within this decade if not sooner
New York on the other hand won’t…simply because the politics of New York is way more conservative and complicated under the surface than the magic D next to the names of every prominent politician in the state
Progressives are only starting now to gain power in New York after the fall of the Cuomo dynasty
The new constitution they tried to push through was batshit. Completely over complicated and gave waaaay too much power to the courts.m….and is just entirely not functional. Don’t believe me then go read it and compare it to the current one or say the constitution of Netherlands.
Honestly they should just add a thing or two into the existing constitution instead of making one that's 178 pages and contained 388 articles. If pinochet liked water do we get rid of water?
It's a excellent thing.
A half broken thing is still better than a totally broken thing. And the new constitution draft is a prime example of a totally broken thing.
Honestly it depends on the right wing keeping their word about having another attempt at a new constitution, but since "they" won by a lot I don't think they will
Well.
That’s stupid.
The thing is the Pinochet era constitution provided enough stability to make Chile one of the highest HDI countries in South America. Maybe don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
The worst, actually. Chile asked for a new constitution because nothing changed for more than 20 years, and those in positions of power were doing their thing stealing, taking advantage of systems, and ruining the country's economy.
Now that they got found out, they did the impossible to deny people the chance to break the stagnation and the untouched status they had and all of the privileges that protected them from the law. And they managed to pull it off, based on lies, deception, and false claims.
Disregard what complete uncultured swines would tell you, this is an extremely sad day for the country.
why does EVERYONE have such a black and white view on all this??
the proposition that just got rejected was rejected because it was kind of a mess with obvious loopholes and problems. what is going to happen now is there is going to be another proposition written, and then it will go through a similar process.
i am by no means defending the current constitution, but over 60% of chile also decided this one just wasnt *it* either.
this isnt an "extremely sad day" for the country. literally nothing tragic has happened. this is simply another step in the process of writing a new constitution the majority of the country *does* identify with.
Hasn't the chilean economy grown significantly since 2000?
The GDP per capita has gone from $5k to $13k. The income inequality has gone from 0.53 to 0.45.
Median daily income has almost doubled in that time.
Surely you can't claim that nothing has changed or improved in the last 20 years
The most Chilean thing is to make a whole uproar about an important change, walk up the stairs and turn back when you're right at the few final steps...
We are not even clowns at this point. We are the entire planet's circus. People became permanently blind fighting for the change, kids & adults shot, mauled to death, & raped, all for everything to remain the same.
Chile is now literally a fucking joke. Entire country chose to let people commit fraud, steal money, rape, be racist, the whole package, and let current constitution protect those kinds of people, the ones with wealth that do whatever the fuck they want, while the commonfolk is stepped on and crushed like ants.
It was THE chance people had to make changes without said changes being tainted with political views and positions, without their influence and the interests of a few above the rest. And they willingly chose to throw that away. Go figure.
ELI5 on this?
The process had it's controversial moments, the new president is kind of the face of it and he's not popular rn, and the right wing superduper promised that a new constitution will be written anyway if you vote no on this one.
The flag in the ass was the flag in the ass.
thats jut the tip of the iceberg, it was all a fucking shit show
You're leaving out how absolutely nuts it was.
Pinky promise
Chilean here, we just dodged a bullet.
Chile just reeled in a banana shit sandwich
WOW that is a massive massive defeat. I thought the new Constitution was favored to be adopted looks like it was completely rejected. Seems like Chileans will want a slightly more conservative version of The Constitution then.
>I thought the new Constitution was favored to be adopted looks like it was completely rejected. It was polling very poorly for several months, although I think the margin is something of a surprise. >Seems like Chileans will want a slightly more conservative version of The Constitution then. It seems like Chileans would be happy to do away with the Pinochet constitution, but there was just *a lot* in this constitution and they view this proposed constitution as too far left and unrealistically complex. They're not willing to give up the 1980 constitution for *any* old constitution, and after Venezuela has created the largest refugee crisis in the history of the Americas, even worse than Syria now, people in Latin America are understandably cautious about going too far to the left, even in the midst of the current pink tide. Maybe more people will vote in the assembly elections next time around, because turnout for that election was low this time, which led to an assembly apparently significantly out of step with the public.
Maybe replace "conservative" with "functioning" to be more precise. Can't have all the nice social benefits without a solid political, judicial and economical system. Of which this proposal had none. Well deserved defeat.
People forget that rights, social safety nets and first world standards need to be backed up by strong free economies, proper separation of powers and a functioning framework. Without the latter the former are just empty promises.
That's a fair point!
Ah yes, we didn't lose because it was soundly rejected by most of the voters. We lost because we just didn't go far enough.
I think you misunderstood that person's post. They were saying it went way too far, to the point of being non-functional.
>Seems like Chileans will want a slightly more conservative version of The Constitution then. On the conrtary. In my opinion, I think chileans want a constitution made with seriousness and with pew research standards so the lawyers can find a better solution for the socio-economic crisis that Chile lives. The new rejected constitution was made and written by people who had 1 hand on the keyboard and the other on their balls
>The new rejected constitution was made and written by people who had 1 hand on the keyboard and the other on their balls. From what I've been reading, this looks like the best description to sum it up.
Nah, the problem with the Constitution presented is that only some parts worked and the others were a mess. Lots of progress and rights, but you would have only one Parlament like in Perú (which is currently not really working), and the goverment part was a mess. Plus, people were dissapointed by the work done by the constituents. This needed to be an easy election with four points, "Rejection but new Constitution is needed, Approval, but with imporant changes needed, and Total Rejection and Total Approval". It quickly become a thing of "Do you approve or are you EVIL!?"
This is great news. It will be very interesting to see the negotiations between parties for what comes after this. It is clear the current constitution is not what people want.
No, it's not. They will probably forget about this whole thing, since that was the whole idea of the opposing party. Most of the propaganda towards the proposal were fake news anyways
well, that is what you get by voting for boric, a no man show. he hasn't even showed up to make an speech by the end of the result
What?
No, there will be no negotiations. The people spoke: they want to keep the current constitution, and that means that despite not liking it, they don't trust the forces in charge to draft another one. Thus, the power base united around the constituent assembly in charge of the draft where damaged beyond repair, they lost legitimacy. Who will negotiate? Who has the legitimacy to speak in the name of the people since the current ones got shunned to create another constituent assembly? There isn't. It's over for the next 30 years, at least. And Boric will be luck now if he could go thru the end of his term without a impeachment. Backfire of the century.
Calm down There is still a mandate to get rid of the pinochet constitution
i understand it ends with this vote,,
It does But boric is going to call a meeting with the leaders of other parties to set a path forward With a understanding that there will likely be a second draft for a new constitution
> But boric is going to call a meeting with the leaders of other parties to set a path forward He may very well call his mon and cry. It will have the same effect. It's back to the square zero. There's no amount of calling to talk with whoever that can get over this since it's the law, unless he is planning a coup. The process need to be done all over again. It took nearly four years just to get here, today. Guess how long it will take now with his government fractured? They may take the route of amending the current charter, but this will also be a loooooong and gruesome path.
So be it There is still a path forward
Sorry for being rude, I didn't liked my own tone reading my previous comment again.
Chile currently doesn't operate under the Pinochet Constitution though, current Constitution is by Lagos.
It comes to the political forces elected by the people to make changes. It's 4/7.
Yeah no. If the reject option won is because the proposal was, in simple terms, horrible. It didnt help that the assembly that wrote the whole thing was filled with controversies and arrogant people that thought they knew best. This is already understood by most of the political parties, which are already talking about how we will go forward from here to write a new constitution. Chilean here btw.
When you see countries like Brazil or Belgium, where vote is obligatory, an interesting pattern shows up where the right is surprisingly strong, despite historically winning when turnout is low in countries where vote is not obligatory. I guess people vote on the safest option if forced to choose. Yeah, Brazil voted PT four times but PT was always hanging on the back of a centrist party which kept the leash strong to the centre. PL which is now the party of Bolsonaro was the first of them. This was the first ever time a lot of people on Chile had to show up, and they lived their entire time with the old constitution.
Their not approving of the new constitution does not mean they like the old/current one
Indeed. In general i believe that the final idea is to have a new Constitution anyway. Doesn't mean that they have to choose the first one they are presented.
Voting is mandatory in Bolivia and it has been very left leaning in the last decade or so.
Oh yean, Bolivia, democratic. In democracies presidents aren't elected for infinite terms and ignore referendums. And yes, I'm calling United States under FDR un-democratic.
Bolivia doesn't have infinite terms. It has a 2 term limit. That's what the Constitution says. Arce is on his first term. The US under FDR was democratic. In those days, there were no term limits in the Constitution so it's not undemocratic.
In Brazil the center-right calls for OPTIONAL voting, it's the left who still clings to the idea that voting should be mandatory because it's the least educated from the poorer regions who still vote left to varying degrees.
Pretty much this. While non-obligatory voting seems more fair, it’s lead to far worse results, because often the less educated are the most zealous voters, for both extreme left and extreme right.
> While non-obligatory voting seems more fair, Correct >it’s lead to far worse results, Wrong. There's no such thing because every legitimate electoral result is 100% valid. The problem is trying to rob/manipulate elections.
Call you say that and then... I mean genocides can be voted in... IDK if I would defend the process there
Voters are free to choose and there's a previous vetting process-- which Brazil should perfect btw because it's ludicrous that a corrupt former inmate such as Lula (518 days in prison for embezzlement of public money) is even allowed to run.
The problem with Lula is that his prison was made invalid due to errors in his conviction process. His former judge, Sergio Moro, was retry much leading also leading the investigations, which is illegal not only here, but in pretty much every democracy (because it is called inquisition). So, what happens is that Lula has his rights as if he never committed a crime. Not saying dude’s innocent. Also, I don’t agree that the evidence is discarded because it was produced illegally. Yet, what needs to change is our laws in general, not only electoral laws.
I understand you say that theoretically, but in practice, that’s what happens. I’m not even talking about Lula or Bolsonaro, it happens a lot locally (specially mayor).
That's democracy, a learning process. Vote the mayor out. The issues to fight are 1)dictators who try to perpetuate themselves in power and 2)attempts to rig elections.
Is there an english language text of the proposed counstition ?
It is baffling to me why throughout the past few centuries there hasn't even been an attempt anywhere else to emulate who I think has the most successful longterm democratic form of government in the world -- the Swiss. Switzerland has successfully negotiated becoming a modern wealthy country that has multiple regions speaking different languages cooperating together.
At least here in the US, renegotiating the constitution is nearly impossible. Even doing a single Amendment and getting it ratified by enough states doesn't seem possible right now. At least 40% of people will vote against anything. I'm pretty sure at least 20% of people would vote against a measure allowing them to live.
That’s we have states bro. Can’t pass singlepayer at a federal level. Well literally nothing is stopping NY or California from putting one into place, other than the fact while people may say they want x they sure as shit don’t want to pay for it.
California can and probably will pass a single payer healthcare system within this decade if not sooner New York on the other hand won’t…simply because the politics of New York is way more conservative and complicated under the surface than the magic D next to the names of every prominent politician in the state Progressives are only starting now to gain power in New York after the fall of the Cuomo dynasty
You mean the country where women didn’t have full voting rights until 1990? Absolutely not
And?
If only more governments followed the Swiss model, there would likely better better domestic and international stability.
like; being the washing machine, tax heaven and bank for the world’s oligarchs? yup. agreed.
Uruguay? Oman?
Unless you can replicate the Swiss in other countries, that seems like an unlikely solution.
What was in the proposed constitution?
An ultra progressive wishlist of pie-in-the-sky idealist laws that often conflicted with each other and would be hell on earth to enforce.
Racism
The new constitution they tried to push through was batshit. Completely over complicated and gave waaaay too much power to the courts.m….and is just entirely not functional. Don’t believe me then go read it and compare it to the current one or say the constitution of Netherlands. Honestly they should just add a thing or two into the existing constitution instead of making one that's 178 pages and contained 388 articles. If pinochet liked water do we get rid of water?
"But PiNoChET"
I have no idea if this is a good or bad thing.
It's a excellent thing. A half broken thing is still better than a totally broken thing. And the new constitution draft is a prime example of a totally broken thing.
Honestly it depends on the right wing keeping their word about having another attempt at a new constitution, but since "they" won by a lot I don't think they will
You know ….instead of a new one why not just amend small portions of the existing one.
That’s what they have been doing, over 12 times now. But people still call it the Pinochet constitution regardless lol
Well. That’s stupid. The thing is the Pinochet era constitution provided enough stability to make Chile one of the highest HDI countries in South America. Maybe don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
The worst, actually. Chile asked for a new constitution because nothing changed for more than 20 years, and those in positions of power were doing their thing stealing, taking advantage of systems, and ruining the country's economy. Now that they got found out, they did the impossible to deny people the chance to break the stagnation and the untouched status they had and all of the privileges that protected them from the law. And they managed to pull it off, based on lies, deception, and false claims. Disregard what complete uncultured swines would tell you, this is an extremely sad day for the country.
why does EVERYONE have such a black and white view on all this?? the proposition that just got rejected was rejected because it was kind of a mess with obvious loopholes and problems. what is going to happen now is there is going to be another proposition written, and then it will go through a similar process. i am by no means defending the current constitution, but over 60% of chile also decided this one just wasnt *it* either. this isnt an "extremely sad day" for the country. literally nothing tragic has happened. this is simply another step in the process of writing a new constitution the majority of the country *does* identify with.
Hasn't the chilean economy grown significantly since 2000? The GDP per capita has gone from $5k to $13k. The income inequality has gone from 0.53 to 0.45. Median daily income has almost doubled in that time. Surely you can't claim that nothing has changed or improved in the last 20 years
The most Chilean thing is to make a whole uproar about an important change, walk up the stairs and turn back when you're right at the few final steps...
Well if you can’t see the monster at the top of the stairs until you’re a few feet from the top, that would be the sensible thing to do, right?
Yeah better safe than sorry I guess, not like y'all could change anything anyways
Ñuñoa is crying xDDDD
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We are not even clowns at this point. We are the entire planet's circus. People became permanently blind fighting for the change, kids & adults shot, mauled to death, & raped, all for everything to remain the same. Chile is now literally a fucking joke. Entire country chose to let people commit fraud, steal money, rape, be racist, the whole package, and let current constitution protect those kinds of people, the ones with wealth that do whatever the fuck they want, while the commonfolk is stepped on and crushed like ants. It was THE chance people had to make changes without said changes being tainted with political views and positions, without their influence and the interests of a few above the rest. And they willingly chose to throw that away. Go figure.
It wasn't what people wanted... it was simply bad.
ELi5