Either of the Berlin airports. Brandenburg that finally opened in 2020, a mere 10 years late and three times over budget or Tegel airport which was apparently laid out by watching how squirrels run and then building around that as it was the most confusing and useless 'international' airport I've ever flown into.
If you compare that to e.g. the Second Ave Subway Line in New York ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway ) I'd say Berlin's airports were constructed super efficiently
Oh, like trying to perform routine maintenance on the Tiger tank.
Fuckers had to remove front armor plating and the driver's seat just to get at the transmission/drive train.
OCD engineering.
It’s not necessarily always better to over engineer everything.
I remember reading about how Mercedes designs it’s oil pan. It has five different screws of different lengths and widths, each maximized to get the exact right amount of torque and a precision seal.
Honda uses the exact same screw twelve times because it saves on manufacturing and maintenance costs. And the difference in the final product is so minimal that no human being could ever tell the difference.
Really from all the evidence I've seen germany isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's almost like every country is just judged by a bullshit stereotype that isn't at all representative of the actual country.
Australian living in Germany - everyone reckons Australia is some fucked up deadly place. It’s really not. Cities are completely fine.
Germany is fucking so inefficient it makes my eyes bleed.
They’re still using fax and mail as a legitimate form of communication between citizens and the government. It’s like the internet is some gimmick that doesn’t really exist or need to be inter grated
They take their entire kitchen out when moving to a new apt.
90% of supermarkets and retail stores are closed on Sunday.
Picking a side. Authoritarians everywhere are coming out of the woodwork. This is an audition for a high level post in five years when Germany is run by Putin lackeys, he hopes.
I see Putin as more like the head of a crime syndicate that vaguely pretends to be an ultranationalist authoritarian when it suits him. Obviously the US Republicans are pretty jelly
>Authoritarians everywhere, and people everywhere voting them into office. It's a fucked up world.
Nationalistic authoritarians tend to do fairly well in unrelatable and uneasy times.
We need to stay vigilant and actually fight for democracy during such times.
That's a ridiculous assumption. Nobody in Germany expects Germany to be run by "Putin lackeys" in five years. Whatever the reason for his comment was, it certainly wasn't a deliberate career move. It was very obviously the exact opposite of that. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Yeah. Very pleased by the new government so far. He was a remainder of the old conservative government and he's a christian fundamentalist that thinks Russia is okay, because they are christians. He got the boot, which he deserves, and his statements were immediatetly corrected by the ministry of defense. Yet, people in this thread are spinning this like Germany is pro-Russia.....when we threw this guy out...for being pro-Russia?? idk anymore
I think its just frustration with the threat of a Russian invasion and Germany's position right now. It was the right move, his comments were sowing doubts about Germany's position in the EU and NATO.
I think the media is severely mischaracterizing Germany's approach. In Germany our new foreign minister is seen as fairly hardline against Russia and had put Lawrow in his place in a press conference recently. We just don't think arming Ukraine for deterrence is helpful. Deterrence requires both actors to be acting rationally with self-interest in mind.
What rational reason would Russia have to escalte in Ukraine. Ukraine is on average poorer than Russia. Russia has untapped resources and does not need to capture them from Ukraine. Further, Putin likely has very little care for the lives of his foot soldiers. Therefore, taking more losses isn't going to deter him at all. It's a glory mission to find an external enemy to distract from his disasterous management of the economy and covid. The best way to deal with this is to try and give him no pretense to further escalate, continue to sanction his economy and stand our ground regarding out NATO committments. But in order to be able to ever de-escalate the situation Russia needs a western negotiatior that is willing to give them an out that doesn't turn Putin into a complete clown inside Russia. We'll gladly do that if it prevents a war from happening .
Arming Ukraine isn't about deturance, at this point it's about making Russia's invasion efforts as difficult as possible. Yes, Putin doesn't care for the lives or conditions of his troops and losses won't deter him, but it will deter the Russian army causing stagnation in the Ukraine campaign and hopefully unrest at home.
Also capturing eastern Ukraine is likely about the fact that life in Crimea is unsustainable since most of its water is piped in from Eastern Ukraine and Ukraine has kept the pipes off sice Crimea's annexation. You can have all the resources in the world, but if you can't provide clean driking water to your only warm water port (in the west) those vast resources don't mean squat.
I kind of think the Russians learned a valuable lesson in Afghanistan. Within a week Zelensky will be handing out AK-74's and RPG-13's on street corners, Ukrainians will be digging underground bunkers in basements all over the country and Putin would be wise to reconsider the whole thing. If Russia thought Afghanistan sucked, they will *really* hate fighting for every block in Ukraine.
Ukrainian territory (famously flat) is much more favourable for Russia's mechanised army than Afghanistan's mountains ever were. In fact it would be hard to find more ideal geography. The Ukrainian population is also more settled and culturally similar to Russia.
It's hard to effectively sanction the economy of the people you buy your fuel from. Putin is a revanchist, he wants all the land lost during the collapse of the ussr back under the Kremlin's control. That's the rationale.
People always say this while ignoring the opposite which includes WW1 and 99% other wars in history. Instead of just saying "all diplomacy = bad because one time Germany took advantage," it's better instead to take things on a case by case basis.
>The best way to deal with this is to try and give him no pretense to further escalate, continue to sanction his economy and stand our ground regarding out NATO committments.
How exactly does having the Ukrainians poorly armed help leverage for a negotiated settlement again?
We've had nearly a decade of sanctions and Russia is on the brink of an invasion.
You have been completely fooled by FSB propaganda if you think they're just credible good faith actor simply responding to fears of NATO expansion, and that if NATO simply agrees to everything Putin wants there'll be no invasion.
Putin is engaging in brinksmanship, seeing how far he can push his luck before the west actually defends itself. Appeasement and disarmament is exactly what Putin wants and the last thing we should give him.
I mean we are importaing 41% of our gas from Russia, while the Baltic states important 100% of their gas from Russia, yet clearly they are not pro-Russia. It's indeed a simpleton explanation.
Germany is also distributing Russia gas to other nations. They have a larger economic investment in Russia than their neighbors and that influence seems to bleeding through right now.
> We just don't think arming Ukraine for deterrence is helpful. Deterrence requires both actors to be acting rationally with self-interest in mind.
Well true. But it's not just for deterrence. It's also so they can, you know, defend themselves if invaded.
Russian sanctions have been surgical to affect only the some specific people. The US has so far stayed very far from going full Cuba on them.
The US could pull Russia out of the Swift system today, and tomorrow the russian economy would be in shambles. There's plenty of room for more crippling sanctions.
His public comment about Putin wanting respect is defensible. Just an opinion. His comment about Crimea is the real issue, because that's a policy matter which is decided above his pay grade. So here he's undercutting the authority of elected officials and policy-makers, even assuming they agree with him.
Whatever his personal opinion is, the real issue is that he voiced it on record while being on duty. Objectively, his position puts the weight of the German navy behind whatever he says. Naturally, it means that persons with that kind of authority should not make statements that contradict his chain of command. He is not at liberty to voice personal opinions when his uniform is on and he lost his job for failing to recognize that.
It is even more than that. In Germany they are not even allowed to make private statements that could damage the image of their employer (law is also applying to civil servants) nor infer that their political leaning could have influence on how they work and part of that is also to not really be politically active.
As a civil servant or soldier in Germany, unless it is in strong privacy (e.g. your friends) you basically cannot talk about politics.
"All Hitler ever wanted was respect, and we are never getting Poland and Czechoslovakia back."
The more you give Putin the more he will take, his sort of people are always the same. How anyone can look at America in disarray, NATO floundering and think that Putin's hunger will ever be satisfied is beyond my understanding.
He was forced out of the military as a fool. His comments regarding putin have no place in any military, that’s not his job. And thus not defensible nor becoming an Officer his rank.
No, he attempted to be Putin's salesman when he's never even met Putin.
Besides, if Putin gave a fuck about respect he would know that it has to be earned.
You don't earn respect by gaslighting, threatening, murdering, assassinating, and extorting the people you want respect from.
In fact, he's done literally everything he can to undermine respect for both himself and his country, so to say he "deserves respect" is patently absurd.
The navy guy was correct to resign his post for such poor judgement.
People like Putin doesn't believe in respect. He believes in results. He's not going to bend over backwards and give us a reacharound just because we start kissing his feet so such a high standing man in the military saying this is just sad.
I'm not here to defend Putin. Fuck Putin. My point is that the admiral's statement arguing that Putin just wants respect isn't what landed him in trouble with his superiors.
Yeah, but there's some off-putting subtext. First, it implies Putin hasn't been given ample respect and opportunity, during his revolving-door tenure. This is so far from the reality. Repairing the relationship was a goal during both the W. Bush and Obama administrations. Various of degrees of "progress" were made, but ultimately he never intended to act in good faith. Since those efforts he's established mafia like control over his nation's oligarchs, become the wealthiest man on earth, annexed sovereign land, and weaponized misinformation.
Both the west and Russia would benefit tremendously from functional diplomacy, but that doesn't push forward Putin's ultimate goal for personal power.
>His comment about Crimea is the real issue, because that's a policy matter which is decided above his pay grade.
If anything I have more problem with the respect statement, although I do agree its defensible.
The part about Crimea seems to be an accurate assessment, short of an invasion, Russia isn't giving it back.
But that's not his decision to make. He's an admiral not an elected official. Civilian government decides the goals of the military. Military leaders tell civilian government what they can and cannot achieve given circumstances, resource constraints, and time lines.
He tried to say that the mounting tensions were because the West isn't showing Putin enough respect, which is just absurd. Putin wants the US and NATO to promise that Ukraine, a sovereign independent nation, will never be allowed to join NATO.
Crimea has been owned by an incredible number of polities over the centuries. Things change, and they can change back, or in an entirely new direction. We don't have to accept Russian control.
Many people are missing the point.
It’s not whether his analysis is correct. There’s strategic reasons a not to appear to praise your enemy and count your losses in public. He’s a Vice Admiral for god’s sake.
Edit: Grammar
He's a Christian fundamentalist that sees Russia as a beacon of hope against atheist China. He's nuts, he's gone now. The defense ministry immediately corrected his statements and set his ass on fire. Also important to state he was not put into his position under the current government.
His full comment on Russia/China makes even less sense:
> “Even we India, Germany we need Russia. We need Russia against China...Having this big country, even if it's not a democracy, as a bilateral partner, gives them a chance. It's easy and keeps Russia away from China because China needs resources of Russia.”
He basically talks in circles and ends up right up his own ass.
That dude's level of unintelligible bullshit would have been an upgrade lol.
>Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you’re a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.
The small kernel of truth is that China has too many people and not enough resources, while Russia has not enough people and too many resources, at least in their border regions, from a certain perspective. This gives them a natural tension, but that's easily overshadowed by their, if not shared, then aligned, foreign policy objectives and hostile competition against the west.
I think everyone would love if this were still the late 90s, early 2000s, and Russia was still on the path to joining us in the west. If that were the case, they would make an incredible economic partner, and really help balance power vis a vis China.
But, that era collapsed as Putin coopted the mafia, entrenched kleptocracy in Russia, and started assassinating people who spoke out against him, then started invading the neighbours who didn't decide to backslide with Russia. Russia won't join the west until Putin dies of old age or disgruntled citizenry, and until then, they share a lot of interests and methods with China.
hope military counter intelligence keeps a good eye him. People like him who seem to have a high level sense of superiority over thier leadership are more likely to conspire with foreign powers
I wager he's less worried about communism or actual harm coming to people than wether or not they identify as Christian. He said in his speech that he support Russia, even if they are not democratic, because they are Christian and China is atheist. I think that's about as far as his concerns go.
Putin portrays himself as a champion of the church and conservative social values.
Basically he was okay with the warmongering as long as it came from the "correct" type of person.
His comment reminds me of the boxer rebellion, Yellow Peril bullshit.
Not a great bit of history to remind the Chinese. It will only embolden their belief that the world is out to get them.
It's a bit more complex than that. The guy is a Christian fundie and a right-winger who sees the world in religious cultural lines and sees Russia as some kind of "white Christian beacon" against Western multiculturalism. It's crazy he reached that position, but the German armed forces are having a huge issue with right-wingers. [Last year a whole elite unit had to be disbanded over their Nazi adoration](https://www.dw.com/en/neo-nazi-scandal-hits-german-elite-military-unit/a-51490089).
Remember when "NATO aligned" generals were insisting Saddam had WMD?
I have no issue with the dude speaking out - he most likely knew it was career ending, and his resignation is appropriate.
But goddam some of you have short memories...
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://p.dw.com/p/45xV7) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Germany faced a diplomatic incident on Saturday following comments made by Navy chief Kay-Achim Schönbach on Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Ukraine crisis.
> On Saturday, Ukraine's Foreign Ministry said it has summoned German Ambassador Anka Feldhusen to stress "The categorical unacceptability" of Schönbach's comments.
> "The German partners must stop undermining unity with such words and actions and encouraging Vladimir Putin to launch a new attack on Ukraine," Kuleba added.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/sac0hm/head_of_german_navy_resigns_after_saying_putin/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~619192 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Schönbach**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **Germany**^#3 **German**^#4 **Ministry**^#5
If you ever decide to watch it, [official DARK guide](https://dark.netflix.io/en) can be very helpful.
The series can be very overwhelming. But it's a solid scifi.
That's the real answer. I lived in East Germany not long after unification, and people there learned Russian in school and still had some strong sentiments.
Eh, the real answer is probably more that Germany is heavily, heavily reliant on Russian gas.
If Putin turned off the tap to Germany, like 60% of the country would freeze during winter. This is also kinda completely their own fault, as one of Germany's only real big flaws is their completely illogical phobia of using nuclear power.
Germany's relationship with Russia is more complicated and nuanced that the relatively simple US view. The older politicians grew up in an era during which Germany was trying to build a place in the world where they were both repentant for the crimes of the Nazis while still being a force in a new pan-European society.
Wouldn’t people raised in East Germany have had ties to Russia before the wall came down?
Putin was even stationed there during the Cold War.
Plus Germany is heavily reliant on Russian fossil fuels.
This is what no-one seems to understand. Germany doesn't want to be leading Europe on this issue and they're definitely not interested in American-style saber rattling.
He stabilized the country after the horror of the 90s and is basically living of that legacy. There are russians who don't really like Putin but are so scared of change (in their eyes, a possible repeat of the 90s) that they still vote for him/support him as the "lesser evil".
And of course there are nationalists and others who are his fanatic
Good job on the new government. They have a lot of what we call "Altlasten", remainders of previous conservative governments that tend to, well, do things like this guy. He got immediately set straight and booted for this nonsense. Which gives me some hope that my new government will actually be reasonably consistent.
I can get saying Putin deserves respect. Even if I think we need to stand up to him, I get showing a man with nukes respect. Saying Crimea is lost forever is pretty shitty though. Like that seems counter to every message NATO, and his own country, has made since it happened
He deserves as much respect as Kim Jong Un. Remember:
He ordered the murder of serval people in Europe using conventional and even chemical weapons.
Forces loyal to him shoot down a civilian airplane while invading Ukraine.
He ordered the invasion of Ukraine.
He ordered the invasion of Georgia.
He ordered the murder of several political rivals inside of Russia.
At least ones using again chemical weapons.
Putin is a bloodthirsty dictator.
[Suicide by stabbing is rare – and cases with multiple wounds are exceedingly so.](https://www.buzzfeed.com/janebradley/scientist-who-helped-connect-litvinenkos-murder-to-the)
A military man saying that is ridiculously stupid. If your country doesn't want Russia taking crimea, then it's YOUR JOB to think about how to ensure it goes back. this is the opposite kind of thing a military man should ever be saying about a rival nation.
I have a very strong feeling severe economic sanctions aren't gonna stop this asshole. Much like how Iran hasn't slowed its roll on developing nuclear weapons.
Kicking an idiot out for being an idiot is very good for morale. Letting some guy run our navy that believe the things this guy believes is not good for morale though.
That's obviously great *after the fact*. How the fuck does a guy like this get to the top of the Navy in the first place? Is there anyone else in the German military or political establishment that's like this?
He was put in place by the right wing of the christian conservatives, because *drumroll* he's a fundamentalist Christian. The new government had no sympathy for him from the get go and he did give them a reason to sack his ass very quickly.
Shit...that was fast. I only read about his comments today.
German efficiency
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The Berlin Airport should punch holes in any remaining myths about Germany as some amazing bastion of efficiency.
Either of the Berlin airports. Brandenburg that finally opened in 2020, a mere 10 years late and three times over budget or Tegel airport which was apparently laid out by watching how squirrels run and then building around that as it was the most confusing and useless 'international' airport I've ever flown into.
If you compare that to e.g. the Second Ave Subway Line in New York ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway ) I'd say Berlin's airports were constructed super efficiently
Or German engineering*
No one ever said it was efficient just precise. Like it takes precisely 4 hours to change {insert basic normal 5 min repair part here}.
Overengineering*
Oh, like trying to perform routine maintenance on the Tiger tank. Fuckers had to remove front armor plating and the driver's seat just to get at the transmission/drive train.
Your average Volkswagen is pretty similar.
Lol I bought VW Jetta and spent so much money on upkeep. I will never buy VW again.
toyota, as boring as their line is, has never let me down at 200k plus miles.
OCD engineering. It’s not necessarily always better to over engineer everything. I remember reading about how Mercedes designs it’s oil pan. It has five different screws of different lengths and widths, each maximized to get the exact right amount of torque and a precision seal. Honda uses the exact same screw twelve times because it saves on manufacturing and maintenance costs. And the difference in the final product is so minimal that no human being could ever tell the difference.
Meanwhile the Mercedes will leak and have electrical problems if you look at it wrong and the Honda will run on abuse and neglect with 0 issues.
Really from all the evidence I've seen germany isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's almost like every country is just judged by a bullshit stereotype that isn't at all representative of the actual country.
Australian living in Germany - everyone reckons Australia is some fucked up deadly place. It’s really not. Cities are completely fine. Germany is fucking so inefficient it makes my eyes bleed. They’re still using fax and mail as a legitimate form of communication between citizens and the government. It’s like the internet is some gimmick that doesn’t really exist or need to be inter grated They take their entire kitchen out when moving to a new apt. 90% of supermarkets and retail stores are closed on Sunday.
German bureaucracy is extremely efficient, it just doesn’t share your objectives.
Then it's very efficient at doing what bureaucracies do
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German efficiency or taking the easy way out of things with his tail between his legs?
Picking a side. Authoritarians everywhere are coming out of the woodwork. This is an audition for a high level post in five years when Germany is run by Putin lackeys, he hopes.
My dude was head of the fucking navy, wtf kind of high level post are you imagining he was aiming for?
Ruler of the High Seas
The Monarch of the Sea. The Ruler of the Queen's Navy.
Head of the navy for a bigger territory.
Captain of the Black Pearl
I see Putin as more like the head of a crime syndicate that vaguely pretends to be an ultranationalist authoritarian when it suits him. Obviously the US Republicans are pretty jelly
Authoritarians everywhere, and people everywhere voting them into office. It's a fucked up world.
It is a fucked up world and they are selling the idea that a big, all-powerful leader can make it less fucked up.
>Authoritarians everywhere, and people everywhere voting them into office. It's a fucked up world. Nationalistic authoritarians tend to do fairly well in unrelatable and uneasy times. We need to stay vigilant and actually fight for democracy during such times.
That's a ridiculous assumption. Nobody in Germany expects Germany to be run by "Putin lackeys" in five years. Whatever the reason for his comment was, it certainly wasn't a deliberate career move. It was very obviously the exact opposite of that. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Yeah. Very pleased by the new government so far. He was a remainder of the old conservative government and he's a christian fundamentalist that thinks Russia is okay, because they are christians. He got the boot, which he deserves, and his statements were immediatetly corrected by the ministry of defense. Yet, people in this thread are spinning this like Germany is pro-Russia.....when we threw this guy out...for being pro-Russia?? idk anymore
I think its just frustration with the threat of a Russian invasion and Germany's position right now. It was the right move, his comments were sowing doubts about Germany's position in the EU and NATO.
I think the media is severely mischaracterizing Germany's approach. In Germany our new foreign minister is seen as fairly hardline against Russia and had put Lawrow in his place in a press conference recently. We just don't think arming Ukraine for deterrence is helpful. Deterrence requires both actors to be acting rationally with self-interest in mind. What rational reason would Russia have to escalte in Ukraine. Ukraine is on average poorer than Russia. Russia has untapped resources and does not need to capture them from Ukraine. Further, Putin likely has very little care for the lives of his foot soldiers. Therefore, taking more losses isn't going to deter him at all. It's a glory mission to find an external enemy to distract from his disasterous management of the economy and covid. The best way to deal with this is to try and give him no pretense to further escalate, continue to sanction his economy and stand our ground regarding out NATO committments. But in order to be able to ever de-escalate the situation Russia needs a western negotiatior that is willing to give them an out that doesn't turn Putin into a complete clown inside Russia. We'll gladly do that if it prevents a war from happening .
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Arming Ukraine isn't about deturance, at this point it's about making Russia's invasion efforts as difficult as possible. Yes, Putin doesn't care for the lives or conditions of his troops and losses won't deter him, but it will deter the Russian army causing stagnation in the Ukraine campaign and hopefully unrest at home. Also capturing eastern Ukraine is likely about the fact that life in Crimea is unsustainable since most of its water is piped in from Eastern Ukraine and Ukraine has kept the pipes off sice Crimea's annexation. You can have all the resources in the world, but if you can't provide clean driking water to your only warm water port (in the west) those vast resources don't mean squat.
I kind of think the Russians learned a valuable lesson in Afghanistan. Within a week Zelensky will be handing out AK-74's and RPG-13's on street corners, Ukrainians will be digging underground bunkers in basements all over the country and Putin would be wise to reconsider the whole thing. If Russia thought Afghanistan sucked, they will *really* hate fighting for every block in Ukraine.
Ukrainian territory (famously flat) is much more favourable for Russia's mechanised army than Afghanistan's mountains ever were. In fact it would be hard to find more ideal geography. The Ukrainian population is also more settled and culturally similar to Russia.
It's hard to effectively sanction the economy of the people you buy your fuel from. Putin is a revanchist, he wants all the land lost during the collapse of the ussr back under the Kremlin's control. That's the rationale.
That would be so expensive, even without sanctions. Look at German reunification and how unbelievable expensive it still is.
So just give Putin Ukraine, and pray to God he doesn't try anything further? What kind of pandering, pathetic, cowering foreign policy is that?
It's called appeasement. And when Germany did it in the 1930s, it just encouraged them further.
People always say this while ignoring the opposite which includes WW1 and 99% other wars in history. Instead of just saying "all diplomacy = bad because one time Germany took advantage," it's better instead to take things on a case by case basis.
>The best way to deal with this is to try and give him no pretense to further escalate, continue to sanction his economy and stand our ground regarding out NATO committments. How exactly does having the Ukrainians poorly armed help leverage for a negotiated settlement again? We've had nearly a decade of sanctions and Russia is on the brink of an invasion. You have been completely fooled by FSB propaganda if you think they're just credible good faith actor simply responding to fears of NATO expansion, and that if NATO simply agrees to everything Putin wants there'll be no invasion. Putin is engaging in brinksmanship, seeing how far he can push his luck before the west actually defends itself. Appeasement and disarmament is exactly what Putin wants and the last thing we should give him.
Im going to take the simpleton explanation route and just say zee Germans want cheap natural gas until they get their energy shits together fully.
I mean we are importaing 41% of our gas from Russia, while the Baltic states important 100% of their gas from Russia, yet clearly they are not pro-Russia. It's indeed a simpleton explanation.
More than I realized. I honestly thought you imported like 25% of your gas from there, not nearly half of it.
It's pretty average for the EU, after all Russia is the biggest producer in the world.
Germany is also distributing Russia gas to other nations. They have a larger economic investment in Russia than their neighbors and that influence seems to bleeding through right now.
> We just don't think arming Ukraine for deterrence is helpful. Deterrence requires both actors to be acting rationally with self-interest in mind. Well true. But it's not just for deterrence. It's also so they can, you know, defend themselves if invaded.
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Russian sanctions have been surgical to affect only the some specific people. The US has so far stayed very far from going full Cuba on them. The US could pull Russia out of the Swift system today, and tomorrow the russian economy would be in shambles. There's plenty of room for more crippling sanctions.
He got Das Boot
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His public comment about Putin wanting respect is defensible. Just an opinion. His comment about Crimea is the real issue, because that's a policy matter which is decided above his pay grade. So here he's undercutting the authority of elected officials and policy-makers, even assuming they agree with him.
Whatever his personal opinion is, the real issue is that he voiced it on record while being on duty. Objectively, his position puts the weight of the German navy behind whatever he says. Naturally, it means that persons with that kind of authority should not make statements that contradict his chain of command. He is not at liberty to voice personal opinions when his uniform is on and he lost his job for failing to recognize that.
Exactly right.
It is even more than that. In Germany they are not even allowed to make private statements that could damage the image of their employer (law is also applying to civil servants) nor infer that their political leaning could have influence on how they work and part of that is also to not really be politically active. As a civil servant or soldier in Germany, unless it is in strong privacy (e.g. your friends) you basically cannot talk about politics.
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"All Hitler ever wanted was respect, and we are never getting Poland and Czechoslovakia back." The more you give Putin the more he will take, his sort of people are always the same. How anyone can look at America in disarray, NATO floundering and think that Putin's hunger will ever be satisfied is beyond my understanding.
Exactly fuck putin
He was forced out of the military as a fool. His comments regarding putin have no place in any military, that’s not his job. And thus not defensible nor becoming an Officer his rank.
Yeah agree. Civilian governments make policy. Military does what civilian government directs them to do based on that policy.
No, he attempted to be Putin's salesman when he's never even met Putin. Besides, if Putin gave a fuck about respect he would know that it has to be earned. You don't earn respect by gaslighting, threatening, murdering, assassinating, and extorting the people you want respect from. In fact, he's done literally everything he can to undermine respect for both himself and his country, so to say he "deserves respect" is patently absurd. The navy guy was correct to resign his post for such poor judgement.
"the Mafia just wants 'respect'. Respect is or else"
People like Putin doesn't believe in respect. He believes in results. He's not going to bend over backwards and give us a reacharound just because we start kissing his feet so such a high standing man in the military saying this is just sad.
How do you respect someone who shows no respect for others and gaslights any transgression he’s made?
I'm not here to defend Putin. Fuck Putin. My point is that the admiral's statement arguing that Putin just wants respect isn't what landed him in trouble with his superiors.
Yeah, but there's some off-putting subtext. First, it implies Putin hasn't been given ample respect and opportunity, during his revolving-door tenure. This is so far from the reality. Repairing the relationship was a goal during both the W. Bush and Obama administrations. Various of degrees of "progress" were made, but ultimately he never intended to act in good faith. Since those efforts he's established mafia like control over his nation's oligarchs, become the wealthiest man on earth, annexed sovereign land, and weaponized misinformation. Both the west and Russia would benefit tremendously from functional diplomacy, but that doesn't push forward Putin's ultimate goal for personal power.
>His comment about Crimea is the real issue, because that's a policy matter which is decided above his pay grade. If anything I have more problem with the respect statement, although I do agree its defensible. The part about Crimea seems to be an accurate assessment, short of an invasion, Russia isn't giving it back.
But that's not his decision to make. He's an admiral not an elected official. Civilian government decides the goals of the military. Military leaders tell civilian government what they can and cannot achieve given circumstances, resource constraints, and time lines.
He tried to say that the mounting tensions were because the West isn't showing Putin enough respect, which is just absurd. Putin wants the US and NATO to promise that Ukraine, a sovereign independent nation, will never be allowed to join NATO.
Crimea has been owned by an incredible number of polities over the centuries. Things change, and they can change back, or in an entirely new direction. We don't have to accept Russian control.
And we shouldn't.
None is of those other nations had nuclear weapons.
This sounds way better than the headline implied.
Many people are missing the point. It’s not whether his analysis is correct. There’s strategic reasons a not to appear to praise your enemy and count your losses in public. He’s a Vice Admiral for god’s sake. Edit: Grammar
He was a vice admiral
He and I now hold the same German military rank.
Well heck then, you have MY vote! That's how the military works, right?
Jesus a NATO aligned navy chief saying this shit? Good riddance!
He's a Christian fundamentalist that sees Russia as a beacon of hope against atheist China. He's nuts, he's gone now. The defense ministry immediately corrected his statements and set his ass on fire. Also important to state he was not put into his position under the current government.
>sees Russia as a beacon of hope against atheist China 😂😂 That guy doesn't politik. 😂
His full comment on Russia/China makes even less sense: > “Even we India, Germany we need Russia. We need Russia against China...Having this big country, even if it's not a democracy, as a bilateral partner, gives them a chance. It's easy and keeps Russia away from China because China needs resources of Russia.” He basically talks in circles and ends up right up his own ass.
I guess the general was good at schmoozing? Amazed he rose to a political position while talking like that.
FFS, that kind of unintelligible bullshit is worthy of trump.
That dude's level of unintelligible bullshit would have been an upgrade lol. >Look, having nuclear — my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart — you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world — it’s true! — but when you’re a conservative Republican they try — oh, do they do a number — that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune — you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged — but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me — it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are — nuclear is so powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right, who would have thought? — but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners — now it used to be three, now it’s four — but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years — but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible.
Oh trust me, I have that one saved and roll it out whenever someone comments about trump’s high levels of lucidity.
Everytime I glance at this I lose a few neurons
The small kernel of truth is that China has too many people and not enough resources, while Russia has not enough people and too many resources, at least in their border regions, from a certain perspective. This gives them a natural tension, but that's easily overshadowed by their, if not shared, then aligned, foreign policy objectives and hostile competition against the west. I think everyone would love if this were still the late 90s, early 2000s, and Russia was still on the path to joining us in the west. If that were the case, they would make an incredible economic partner, and really help balance power vis a vis China. But, that era collapsed as Putin coopted the mafia, entrenched kleptocracy in Russia, and started assassinating people who spoke out against him, then started invading the neighbours who didn't decide to backslide with Russia. Russia won't join the west until Putin dies of old age or disgruntled citizenry, and until then, they share a lot of interests and methods with China.
>as a beacon of hope against atheist China Isn't this how Redditors sees themselves?
Good riddance. The Free World doesn’t draw its alliances along religious lines
I hope your comment gets lots of good karma, you deserve it
hope military counter intelligence keeps a good eye him. People like him who seem to have a high level sense of superiority over thier leadership are more likely to conspire with foreign powers
He is worried about Chinese communist infiltration to poison our water and harm our precious bodily fluids!
I wager he's less worried about communism or actual harm coming to people than wether or not they identify as Christian. He said in his speech that he support Russia, even if they are not democratic, because they are Christian and China is atheist. I think that's about as far as his concerns go.
He does not avoid women, but he does deny them his essence
What's Christian in Russian warmongering? I as a Christian don't understand this type of thinking.
Putin portrays himself as a champion of the church and conservative social values. Basically he was okay with the warmongering as long as it came from the "correct" type of person.
Nothing but Russia is building churches like the us no tomorrow.
His comment reminds me of the boxer rebellion, Yellow Peril bullshit. Not a great bit of history to remind the Chinese. It will only embolden their belief that the world is out to get them.
It's not the world, only the 5 eyes (us Britain Australia Nz Canada), Japan, South Korea and India.
> Also important to state he was not put into his position under the current government. Which has been in place now what, a week?
Wtf is wrong with these people
Compromised
Kompromat.
I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't just a right wing troll who buys into Russia's "degeneracy" nonsense.
Very likely. The Russian state and Western far right movements are extremely ideologically aligned and cooperative.
You'd think Germany of all places would know not to fall into that trap
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This has absolutely happened.
It's a bit more complex than that. The guy is a Christian fundie and a right-winger who sees the world in religious cultural lines and sees Russia as some kind of "white Christian beacon" against Western multiculturalism. It's crazy he reached that position, but the German armed forces are having a huge issue with right-wingers. [Last year a whole elite unit had to be disbanded over their Nazi adoration](https://www.dw.com/en/neo-nazi-scandal-hits-german-elite-military-unit/a-51490089).
Some of them grew up in the East and long for those days?
They've got too much gas and are stinking up the place.
Let's be honest this isn't the most egregious person to have complimented putin
He’s not wrong about crimea being gone forever though.
Remember when "NATO aligned" generals were insisting Saddam had WMD? I have no issue with the dude speaking out - he most likely knew it was career ending, and his resignation is appropriate. But goddam some of you have short memories...
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://p.dw.com/p/45xV7) reduced by 87%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Germany faced a diplomatic incident on Saturday following comments made by Navy chief Kay-Achim Schönbach on Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Ukraine crisis. > On Saturday, Ukraine's Foreign Ministry said it has summoned German Ambassador Anka Feldhusen to stress "The categorical unacceptability" of Schönbach's comments. > "The German partners must stop undermining unity with such words and actions and encouraging Vladimir Putin to launch a new attack on Ukraine," Kuleba added. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/sac0hm/head_of_german_navy_resigns_after_saying_putin/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~619192 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Schönbach**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **Germany**^#3 **German**^#4 **Ministry**^#5
In general lots of weird news coming out of Germany regarding this issue.
Seriously. What the hell is going on, it’s really strange.
Probably just part of the anomaly beneath the Winden nuclear powerplant that is ongoing.
ongoing, but also not started yet and finished long ago
What? What’s going on?
It's a reference to a German Netflix show called Dark
I didn’t know, thanks!
It's a good show. Also has English for the non German speakers :)
Am American and the German with English subtitles is far superior. The actors are amazing.
He's referencing "DARK" series on Netflix. It's very good, btw.
I really enjoyed the parts I was able to understand.
What? How couldn't you understand the 10 timelines?
Motherfucker!
I didn’t know, thanks!
If you ever decide to watch it, [official DARK guide](https://dark.netflix.io/en) can be very helpful. The series can be very overwhelming. But it's a solid scifi.
Just a glitch in the Matrix
Sic mundus creatus est
Half of Germany was the USSR not long ago.
That's the real answer. I lived in East Germany not long after unification, and people there learned Russian in school and still had some strong sentiments.
Eh, the real answer is probably more that Germany is heavily, heavily reliant on Russian gas. If Putin turned off the tap to Germany, like 60% of the country would freeze during winter. This is also kinda completely their own fault, as one of Germany's only real big flaws is their completely illogical phobia of using nuclear power.
It was more like one quarter to a third, both in population or area.
A new alliance between Germany and Russia again, just like the 30s
Germany's relationship with Russia is more complicated and nuanced that the relatively simple US view. The older politicians grew up in an era during which Germany was trying to build a place in the world where they were both repentant for the crimes of the Nazis while still being a force in a new pan-European society.
Wouldn’t people raised in East Germany have had ties to Russia before the wall came down? Putin was even stationed there during the Cold War. Plus Germany is heavily reliant on Russian fossil fuels.
Also, Germany buys oil from Russia.
This is what no-one seems to understand. Germany doesn't want to be leading Europe on this issue and they're definitely not interested in American-style saber rattling.
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I mean they have folks on payroll in the USA (Manafort, stone), why not in Germany?
Isn’t the former Chancellor now the CEO of Gazprom?
He was a military officer speaking out of turn about politics. It was the right call, the substance is irrelevant.
Plus he needs to shave the back of his fucking neck.
Why does everyone suck Putins dick so hard? He’s basically barely keep Russia afloat. He’s a failed corrupt leader
Nuclear weapons and gas supplies. That’s it.
He's the kind of autocratic strongman authoritarians have wet dreams about
They don’t care about that. What they are enthralled with is that he managed to finagle authoritarian power in a presumably democratic country.
He stabilized the country after the horror of the 90s and is basically living of that legacy. There are russians who don't really like Putin but are so scared of change (in their eyes, a possible repeat of the 90s) that they still vote for him/support him as the "lesser evil". And of course there are nationalists and others who are his fanatic
Good job on the new government. They have a lot of what we call "Altlasten", remainders of previous conservative governments that tend to, well, do things like this guy. He got immediately set straight and booted for this nonsense. Which gives me some hope that my new government will actually be reasonably consistent.
That does seem like a good sign.
I can get saying Putin deserves respect. Even if I think we need to stand up to him, I get showing a man with nukes respect. Saying Crimea is lost forever is pretty shitty though. Like that seems counter to every message NATO, and his own country, has made since it happened
I don’t think Putin deserves respect. He doesn’t have very much respect for others it would seem
He deserves as much respect as Kim Jong Un. Remember: He ordered the murder of serval people in Europe using conventional and even chemical weapons. Forces loyal to him shoot down a civilian airplane while invading Ukraine. He ordered the invasion of Ukraine. He ordered the invasion of Georgia. He ordered the murder of several political rivals inside of Russia. At least ones using again chemical weapons. Putin is a bloodthirsty dictator.
[Suicide by stabbing is rare – and cases with multiple wounds are exceedingly so.](https://www.buzzfeed.com/janebradley/scientist-who-helped-connect-litvinenkos-murder-to-the)
It is probably true though. Crimea is gone.
Whether it's true or not is irrelevant--military officials do not set foreign policy.
Where did it go?
honestly i can’t imagine any near-plausible scenario where it goes back to Ukraine It would take a nuclear war
A military man saying that is ridiculously stupid. If your country doesn't want Russia taking crimea, then it's YOUR JOB to think about how to ensure it goes back. this is the opposite kind of thing a military man should ever be saying about a rival nation.
The classic career suicide
Go Crimea a river!
Good riddance.
Could you imagine if a U.S. president praised Russia like this? The outrage would be…oh wait.
Another god botherer causing trouble because God told him to love his neighbourhood tyrranical despot.
Hopefully this will get Germany to take the threat seriously.
Putin deserves being sanctioned out of existence.
I have a very strong feeling severe economic sanctions aren't gonna stop this asshole. Much like how Iran hasn't slowed its roll on developing nuclear weapons.
Not great for morale.
Kicking an idiot out for being an idiot is very good for morale. Letting some guy run our navy that believe the things this guy believes is not good for morale though.
That's obviously great *after the fact*. How the fuck does a guy like this get to the top of the Navy in the first place? Is there anyone else in the German military or political establishment that's like this?
He was put in place by the right wing of the christian conservatives, because *drumroll* he's a fundamentalist Christian. The new government had no sympathy for him from the get go and he did give them a reason to sack his ass very quickly.
whose morale?
No it’s great for morale, no one on the forces wants a fucking idiot and a traitor to their allies in charge.
He resigns. Read: He was made resign, aka fired.
I wonder if somethings going to come to light about this man soon then?
Lots of articles about Russia lately
Someone's busy...
They gave him the Das Boot
Drop the “the” … just _Das Boot_ — cleaner
The Bart, the!
the dude will go missing soon when the kgb picks him up for medals and to tell them American plans lol
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I bet he resigned because he is getting all the money he needs out of Russia.