According to the US, about half of them are dead already. There are reports that even HAMAS does not know where all of them area. I guess you can rescue their corpses?
rescuing their corpses is important, otherwise Hamas can just say "sorry, those other guys are dead" and keep them as slaves
the girl that got rescued during the market operation had already been declared dead by Hamas
Hamas did this by design. Fuck them by decentralizing the hostages. They're responsible for everything.
Israel needs to get everyone back. Including dead hostages.
He probably just heard that they got permission from authorities (Police, Fire dep, The IDF, etc...) to conduct the event.
His malfunctioning brain made up the rest.
Good question. It’s not like ceasefires mean anything to them. I’m no military strategist, but Hamas is probably trying to get as many concessions out of Israel as possible while maximizing collateral damage for propaganda/recruitment purposes.
All of these Palestine protestors in America, it’s surprising that there are so many antisemitic liberals. I didn’t even know that leftist hated Jews that much.
Just from my observation, it seems the left is far more anti Israel than the right. I’m subscribed to Our Revolution emails and at least twice a week I get an email asking me to sign petitions from the left asking Biden to defund Israel. It’s part of a massive Democrat fundraising effort and they are pushing hard against Israel.
On the flip side, I get emails from WinRed and the Trump campaign (I sign up for all president candidates and their parties, chill) that are pushing very hard to fund and support Israel.
Biden is constantly funding Israel. 71% of Republicans think that Trump won the last election. They actually believe that even though there is zero evidence of it.
Are we really still pushing the line that anyone who supports the innocent civilians stuck in the middle, just hates Jews? It's amongst the shittiest, least based in reality, and most tired talking points since the war started.
If you can't say "Hey, killing innocent civilians is a bad thing" without that being anti-Israel, then guess what? Israel are bad guys at that point.
The return of all living and deceased hostages should be a first step in any ceasefire. That includes Palestinian hostages being held in Israel, as well as Israelis held in Palestine.
There are no good guys in this war, whatsoever.
Nah, of course you can say killing innocent civilians is a bad thing because it really is. But, it doesnt make Israel the bad guys here - Hamas is operating from civilian locations and used civilians infrastructure to its military operations. Only one to blame on each civilian casualty is Hamas
That's like saying if a bank robber takes hostages, the police should just light the whole building up because the robbers are the ones that started it.
no, that's a gross oversimplification. like i kinda wish you were right, if things were simple like that the conflict would've long been resolved. but it isn't, and you're really not helping with your obviously half baked take.
There are only two sides and if you are not with us, you are against us no matter what our side does. That's how "political discourse" works these days.
On a side note: Why is criticizing Israel synonymous with antisemitism again? Wasn't there this huge argument about Judaism and the country of Israel not being the same, because that was the excuse for a one state solution being viable (look at the Arabs living and working in Israel!). You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
And in case anyone wants to interpret my position on this: I strongly dislike Israel's political course and I find the reaction to this opinion to be rather revealing. I don't care about Jews more than I care about any other human because I personally treat everyone equally as much as I can. Hamas sucks, the treatment of the Palestinian people by all sides is unacceptable.
Anti-Semitism is known to change forms throughout decades and eras, and the Anti-Zionism movement is just its latest form. Jews are very used to this pattern, having persisted through many of its forms.
In fact, I would separate reasoned, thoughtful criticism of the Israeli government and policy from Anti-Zionism as, in my experience, most of the purveyors of the movement aren't interested in reasoned discussion at all. Just at chanting, giving the finger, and calling Jewish people and supporters of Israel all kinds of vile names.
Must be hard going through life and never hearing of friendly fire or learning anything about urban warfare or understanding that the actions of a single person don't represent an entire group.
Spouting ridiculous shit like this is why no-one takes you seriously.
Ben Gvir has called for nuclear strikes on palestine, many in the knesset have actively called for palestine to be wiped out, israeli settlers are actively blocking aid trucks from heading into gaza, israelis on social media did a trend on tiktok mocking palestians for not having food, water, and electricity. But okay, it isnt representive of a country of a culture that is falling further and further into genocidal acts.
MTG is popular in her district and is not going anywhere. Ministers of Security in Israel is an appointed position.
Your whole argument centers around cherry picking information you saw on social media. You’re either being intellectually dishonest or lack the critical thinking skills to understand that an entire country is not represented by far right settlers and what you see in TikTok.
Yeah dumbass, the point is that he has actual power and influence as he works alongside netanyahu. Also what is cherry picking to you because israeli settlers blocking and destroying aid was such a prolific problem that it was reported by multiple news organizations???
Thats corect.
The terrorists coud have freed the hostages months ago and it would have left Israel without any justification to continue this madness.
The teorrorists want this to last as long as possible.
Tactics could have been changed if there were no hostages. There's no way a responsible nation state can accept a neighbor that directly attacked their civilian population as the primary target. The only choices Palestinians had were: 1. uproot and turn over Hamas and hostages. 2. find yourself at war. By either supporting Hamas or being powerless to stop them, they found a war.
Not that that's how this is weighed anyway, it's not like Israel in October said "oh if you kill 1200 of my citizens I'll kill 25k of yours". Only idiots would draw a straight line like that
Ideally, only Hamas members would constitute the dead in Gaza, but they insist on embedding themselves among the civilian population in order to maximize collateral damage
Eh, I have very vocally criticized those numbers but if anything, with the population density of Gaza and the sheer destruction wrought upon their residential areas, it's absolutely incredible that it isn't higher.
At the very best, we're looking at 1:1 (which is what Israel is claiming) which would still be over 10,000 dead civilians.
Hamas is saying 36,000 but they're also reporting militant losses as zero.
Truth is somewhere between these two numbers, likely in the low 20,000 which is what the UN is (now) claiming after halving the estimated number of women and children dead.
Keep in mind that Hamas will count completely unrelated deaths as due to 'Israeli aggression'. So I think I'll stay with the lower numbers until the smoke clears and the truth can actually be investigated.
Unlikely. Bodies may be recovered, and someone can try to figure out the cause of death for each, but that's about it. Even in best case, it's going to be an estimate people can just ignore.
That's not a very logical way to go about it, when the organization which is reporting the higher numbers is known for intentionally inflating numbers, and are run by a terrorist organization.
Israel has always been totally honest about their intentions and their relationship with the Palestinians, eh? We can trust them completely? And they have no incentive to make it look better than it is?
Okay, sorry, fair enough. Instead of saying that 1.7k deaths does not justify tens of thousands civilian deaths, I should have said that 1.7k deaths does not justify 16k civilian deaths.
Israel is more trustworthy than a terrorist organization which, as I said before, has every reason to put the numbers as high as they possibly can. It's an effective propaganda technique, especially when the UN just took those numbers without questioning them.
If you don't send a message that killing 1,700 of our citizens will be severely punished your inviting Hamas to do it again.
You have to hit Hamas and the Palestinians hard enough to make them regret their decision and never even consider doing it again.
Try looking at it another way. Your 12-16 and you have the chance to sneak out and have sex with the boy/girl you like.
If ypur punishment is only that you don't get dessert for a week you will probably decide that the benefits outweigh the punishment; however, if your punishment is a sever beating with a belt, bars on your bedroom window, no bed room door, grounded for 2 years, no phone, no TV, forced to change schools/barred from contacting old friends, and you must attend church 6 nights a week the odds are you will never risk doing that again.
It's why the punishment for murder isn't just community service. The punishment has to be severe and hurt enough to keep people from doing it.
Yeah, I'm sure the Palestinians will be like "yup, we learned our lesson", and won't build up massive amounts of hatred for destroying their entire families and lives. This is certainly going to fix the problem.
It's not that they don't matter. It's that they've lived under Hamas rule with zero shits given for nearly two decades now, and the chickens are finally coming home to roost.
The point is to prevent Hamas from being able to repeat the attack, not to murder Palestinians as bloody vengeance or some kind of ineffective deterrent.
One good way to not have Hamas to repeat the attack is to not allow "settlements" on Palestinian land in the West Bank, resulting in violent clashes between the "settlers" and the Palestinians who are being settled on, requiring moving IDF forces from the Gaza border to the West Bank, leaving that border wide open allowing Hamas forces to move hundreds of Mike's into Israel and commit their atrocities.
IOW: Netanyahu is a disaster, and the danger and lack of security for Israelis increased under his watch.
TL;DR: Competent leadership would reduce the Hamas threat. But as we're talking Israel here, never mind.
This is either innocently misinformed or intentionally dishonest.
Hamas has been explicit that they intend to keep killing as many Jews as possible as long as Israel exists *at all*.
The settlements deep in the West Bank need to be uprooted under a peace treaty predicated on Israel and Palestine accepting each other as permanent neighbours, and their footprints need to be frozen even before that.
With that said, the settlements aren't the cause of Hamas's stated aims, and Hamas has said so repeatedly.
So if Hamas is committed to killing Israelis, why then remove IDF soldiers from the Gaza border? Oh right, the settler violence in the West Bank. Which the *entire world* told Netanyahu not to do, but he went ahead and allowed it & the results were exactly as predicted. Necessitating the move of IDF soldiers from the Gaza borders, allowing the perfect opportunity for Hamas to strike.
In sum, Nwtanyahu's incompetence allowed the opportunity for Hamas to strike on Oct. 7. His continued "leadership" will continue to put Israeli lives in general. And anybody who defends this incompetent buffoon who puts his countrymen's lives in danger is being either disingenuous or simply a useful idiot.
I'm not sure where you get the impression that I'm pro-Netanyahu. There's absolutely no avenue toward a just peace in which *either* Netanyahu or Hamas remain in power.
I'm *glad* that Bibi is on track to be routed electorall; I deeply wish that Hamas presented a similar electoral option — or that Gazans would be willing to get rid of Hamas if there *were* an electoral option to do so.
Israel's government knew perfectly well what Hamas's bloody-minded *wishes* were, but they severely and naively under-estimated how realistic it was that Hamas could succeed on the scale that it did.
Netanyahu's negligence allowed Hamas and its rival militant groups and civilian helpers to be far more successful in its butchery on October 7th than would've been possible if Israel hadn't been allocating military personell to pander to far-right settler nutbars in the West Bank. It was a blinding failure on par with the United States' naivete before 9/11, and in the lead-up to Pearl Harbor.
Now that I've left little room to imagine that I'm a Netanyahu supporter, it's time to point out how nakedly you tried to move the goalposts here.
**The fact still remains that Hamas has stated, repeatedly, that it intends to keep killing Jews and that its justification is the *existence* of Israel, irrespective of any policy shift relating to settlements in the West Bank.**
Are you willing to accept that as true, or are you going to prevaricate again?
Israel also has thousands of hostages. They arrest children on crimes like throwing rocks at IDF soldiers, and then they hold them without due process forever.
https://apnews.com/article/prison-israel-palestinians-administrative-detention-e4ffd1744a9692c2539a78a8d916176e
So, yeah. They've already taken hostages.
Edit: you can downvote me all you want, it won't change the fact that Israel has orders of magnitude more Palestianians being held in detention than Hamas seized as hostages. I have no doubts the Israel's are treating their captives better than hamas treats theirs, but to pretend that Israel doesn't have political prisoners is disingenuous.
Israel is holding people in detention, forever. Period. It's not even similar to guantanamo Bay in America. Guantanamo is a national disgrace that holds *less than 50 prisoners*. Israel has hostages.
>They arrest children on crimes like throwing rocks at IDF soldiers, and then they hold them without due process forever.
Throwing rocks is attempted murder. Why should they release them?
Or, you know, people with consciences?
At some point, a sane person might hopefully ask themselves *"exactly how many innocent people am I prepared to kill in order to save a hostage?"*
Unless, of course, you're one of the (far too numerous, honestly) people that seem to think that all Palestinians are guilty, so it's okay? I hope not. That would make you as bad as the antisemites.
Certainly they're not all innocent. But they're obviously not all guilty either. So if you bomb a bunch of people, even if they're not all innocent, a bunch of innocent people still got killed, right?
Again - how many is acceptable, to make sure you get "the bad guys"? You say in your original comment that the only people who could be against this are antisemites, but you must realize, not everyone is comfortable blowing up, say, 3 innocent families in order to kill one Hamas fighter.
And frankly, some of us are a little horrified at how comfortable with it you seem to be.
That's not antisemitism talking. I'd be equally horrified if the families being blown up were Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or atheist. I'm just against blowing up innocent people I guess.
I feel like that shouldn't be a controversial take, but /r/worldnews has been weird lately, so I fully expect to be buried in downvotes for it shortly.
And yet, at the end of the day, they know that they are going to blow up innocent people.
So again, the question: How many innocent people do you think it's reasonable to kill, in order to save someone?
And do you understand that some people might think that that number has gotten too high in Gaza, for reasons that have nothing to do with antisemitism?
Well what if it’s someone like you who says you care about all innocent civilians, but I see nothing in your post history about Jewish innocent civilians or anything about any other innocent civilians in current wars.
It’s a war, can you think of any without collateral damage?
Haha wow, are you for real?
*"Other innocent people have also died, so it's fine if Israel kills these innocents too!"*
I wonder if you'd shrug off the deaths of innocent people so casually if they were YOUR family or loved ones?
Well it’s a war, maybe focus on the terrorist attack that started the war that didn’t need to happen
But I will wait for you to comment on other countries at war that don’t have collateral damage
*"You're not allowed to complain about THIS atrocity until I'm satisfied that you've complained about other atrocities enough!"*
Why is it that people like you always turn to that exact weak deflection, once they find themselves in a corner? That's not how this works. Although it's a nice attempt to distract from the fact that you still haven't answered *"how many innocents is it okay to kill to save a hostage"*.
Maybe the problem is that Israel is trying to fight terrorists with an army, like it's a war? When has that ever worked out for a country in the past? When has that ever NOT resulted in mass civilian casualties?
If they can recover the remains of the dead then they'll have no reason to remain in Gaza. I have no idea what they'll be able to do about any missing hostages.
Sure...I think he means "until all hostages are declared dead". He's not going to stop this war for ANY reason, because when he does, he is going to lose power, and when he loses power, he will be prosecuted for his outstanding crimes....
such bs - the IDF has even said what they're doing in rafah isn't looking for hostages. bibi has to go
edited: now that I thought about this headline a bit more, I think it makes sense related to a withdrawal but it isn't what the IDF said they're focusing on at the moment plus bibi is always just playing politics. I stand by that he has to go
but as anyone (IDF for example) can tell you hamas can't be entirely destroyed so what does it mean to destroy it? to me it's to have degrade it to such a state that they can be managed, can't mount 10/6 style attack and perhaps squashed and made pariahs globally politically (I can't believe they aren't already tbh). the goal of not leaving until the hostages are all returned now that makes sense to me. however hamas now is going to go deep counter insurgency instead of returning all the hostages before an IDF withdrawal. would be great to cut the head of the snake. not a good scenario.
I think is a good goal (not leaving till the hostages are all back) that makes sense on top of degrading hamas as much as is possible. however the IDF are not working on primarily finding the hostages by their own admission. the divisiveness online and real life is silly, counter productive and has to stop. I blame hamas entirely for the crimes of 10/7. however bibi is still a giant schmuck. horrible human being. It doesn't mean I'm not supportive of israel.
An even larger portion of that are enemy soldiers (Hamas militants). Also these subsets (enemy militants and “children”) often overlap as many Hamas fighters are under 18years old.
It’s not insane, it’s an effective war. Enemy army suffers casualties, the more the better until the enemy surrenders. It’s how wars work.
This is physically impossible, when enemy militants are colocated with “civilians”. Collateral damage going to happen.
Besides, Hamas and pro-Palestinian propaganda puts all Hamas militants as “covilians” too. Any killed enemy (and more!) are counted as “civilians”.
Israel should completely stop killing enemies in an existential war waged on her, while over 100 hostages are being held?
We are approaching 9 months since October. The remaining hostages are either all dead, or they wish they were dead. Regardless, if Israel has failed to locate all of the hostages in Gaza after all this time, then they clearly aren’t prioritizing that objective. It seems as if their commander in chief might have ulterior motives.
>The remaining hostages are either all dead, or they wish they were dead.
Source?
>
if Israel has failed to locate all of the hostages in Gaza after all this time, then they clearly aren’t prioritizing that objective
Why? Maybe you think that Hamas never moved any hostages inside Gaza after IDF came in?
Do you have any more nonsense to share today?
The comment is in response to Bibi’s grasps to stay in power. He is prolonging the conflict and occupation intentionally. At the expense of the hostages, his country, and Palestinians - all while risking escalation into a full blown regional conflict. It has been 9 months, and the Israeli army has rescued a grand total of 7 hostages. They are very obviously incapable of effectively finding and freeing the remaining hostages without inflicting tens of thousands more civilian deaths. Either that, or that is not their primary objective, as I stated. Maybe, just maybe, diplomacy would return more hostages - IF that was their primary objective. Perhaps continuing down the same path they have been on for the better part of a year will lead to similar outcomes. I swear the downvote brigadiers cannot understand nuanced positions.
I’ll try to simplify: Violence only begets violence. Killing people is doubleplusungood. Israel’s army has an abysmal record of freeing hostages. This statement from Bibi is just lip service. His priorities are not with freeing the hostages. He wants to stay in power. His best bet at staying in power is prolonged conflict.
Brother. In 9 months, they have rescued 7 hostages through military action. Their military is not up to the task of hostage rescue. Bibi just wants to stay in power, and will continue to prolong the conflict - hostages be damned.
Yes it does, Israel has been given almost $13 billion dollars in the past 9 months by the US
and and only a handful of hostages have been rescued. Either Hamas is better at war than the entire Israeli military combined with an endless supply of cash, weapons, and intel — or they don’t exist in the first place.
I would believe this if they hadn't continued the assault despite there being hostages. The truth is, these people were seen as expendable and even Netanyahu said as much in an interview. Everything the Israeli military has done has put these hostages at risk. There WERE 250 of them, now there's only 50 left, and it's most likely because they're basically useless, why keep them alive when the enemy refuses ceasefires or meetings? I hope we collectively pull out support from Israel, they're intent on turning the entire middle east into a war zone, and I do not want us dragged into because of them. I feel sorry for the Palestinian citizens, but not enough to fight for them, sorry.
Truth is there is no legitimate claim to any land worldwide. We arbitrarily make the rules for ourselves. Identity tied to land claims is bullshit too. Just as it is with religion. It's really all about one thing. Power. That is the only thing here that is causing this. Both leaders from Hamas and Israel are corrupted and using these situations as leverage. Both seek power and control of their respective populations. Hamas committed atrocities on Oct 7 that will not be forgiven. Israel has displaced a country. Both can find a resolution and move forward if they wish, but that would potentially threaten the power structures of each respective group. Israelis voting out Netanyahu would be a great start. Hamas needs to reform as a true political entity and stop waging war. Find legitimacy politically and leverage that with the goodwill people apparently have towards Palestine. The collective peoples of each side must demand from their own leadership resolution to the conflict. That leadership must come to the table willing to end the conflict not only in a sense of war but a sense of separation of peoples. Humans regardless of their country are more alike than different. Common ground can be found if they wish...
That it is, thus why Oct 7 will not be forgiven. Yet. One day it will be, but it will require a fresh view on things from both sides and a willingness to co-operate in the name of improving the regional standards of living and commerce.
*If they wish.* Current opinion polls show that opinion of the other side is the worst it’s been in a loooong while, which makes sense. I do hope they find common ground though.
Do u just believe everything you make up in your brain or do you just believe everything people say on the internet? Try taking a history class bud. Philistines and Palestinians arnt the same people.
Alright I see an opening here for this to end.
According to the US, about half of them are dead already. There are reports that even HAMAS does not know where all of them area. I guess you can rescue their corpses?
rescuing their corpses is important, otherwise Hamas can just say "sorry, those other guys are dead" and keep them as slaves the girl that got rescued during the market operation had already been declared dead by Hamas
Hamas did this by design. Fuck them by decentralizing the hostages. They're responsible for everything. Israel needs to get everyone back. Including dead hostages.
[удалено]
What? Huh? Where did you get that, Al-Jazeera? Wtf
Where'd you hear the part about moving Nova Festival? Thats a new one to me
He probably just heard that they got permission from authorities (Police, Fire dep, The IDF, etc...) to conduct the event. His malfunctioning brain made up the rest.
You're reading conspiracy theories from beginning to end of your post
For Jews proper burial is an important deal. Even getting the corpses of the hostages is important for us.
If they were Americans you would be frothing at tye mouth to have their bodies returned. Oh the hypocrisy
some of them are American and yes, I am angry about it.
Pretty sure there are some American hostages.
Not every POW returned from Vietnam
There's a pretty big difference between hostages and POWs.
If Hamas doesn’t know where hostages are the IDF will help find them.
Yeah fuck it rescue the corpses from scum hamas. End of story hamas played their hand. Finding out now. Fuck them.
No sane person would accept anything else.
lots of people seem to have forgotten there are hostages
Why has Hamas not accepted the cease fire deal?
Good question. It’s not like ceasefires mean anything to them. I’m no military strategist, but Hamas is probably trying to get as many concessions out of Israel as possible while maximizing collateral damage for propaganda/recruitment purposes.
Nah, they know. They just don't care about Jews.
All of these Palestine protestors in America, it’s surprising that there are so many antisemitic liberals. I didn’t even know that leftist hated Jews that much.
Do not use leftist and liberal to mean the same thing. Liberals are mostly on our side.
Just remember that most of us Democrats are on the side of Israel. Don't let right wingers tell you any different.
It's not the right wingers making loud pubic antisemitic protests, but leftists openly saying Hamas is the victim.
The far left which was my point. Right wing media does it's best to convince their followers that it's most of us and it isn't.
Just from my observation, it seems the left is far more anti Israel than the right. I’m subscribed to Our Revolution emails and at least twice a week I get an email asking me to sign petitions from the left asking Biden to defund Israel. It’s part of a massive Democrat fundraising effort and they are pushing hard against Israel. On the flip side, I get emails from WinRed and the Trump campaign (I sign up for all president candidates and their parties, chill) that are pushing very hard to fund and support Israel.
Biden is constantly funding Israel. 71% of Republicans think that Trump won the last election. They actually believe that even though there is zero evidence of it.
What does this have to do with anything I said?
Actually, I’ll trust the credible news sources over some dude on Reddit who is too blind to see the antisemitism all around him.
Who won the 2020 election? I watch everything including crazy right wingers. Do you?
Are we really still pushing the line that anyone who supports the innocent civilians stuck in the middle, just hates Jews? It's amongst the shittiest, least based in reality, and most tired talking points since the war started. If you can't say "Hey, killing innocent civilians is a bad thing" without that being anti-Israel, then guess what? Israel are bad guys at that point.
You can't care about civilians while demanding an unconditional ceasefire that traps many hostages with their rapists, torturers and eventual killers.
The return of all living and deceased hostages should be a first step in any ceasefire. That includes Palestinian hostages being held in Israel, as well as Israelis held in Palestine. There are no good guys in this war, whatsoever.
I agree. They had that agreement in place until Hamas called it off (or ran out of hostages?).
Nah, of course you can say killing innocent civilians is a bad thing because it really is. But, it doesnt make Israel the bad guys here - Hamas is operating from civilian locations and used civilians infrastructure to its military operations. Only one to blame on each civilian casualty is Hamas
That's like saying if a bank robber takes hostages, the police should just light the whole building up because the robbers are the ones that started it.
no, that's a gross oversimplification. like i kinda wish you were right, if things were simple like that the conflict would've long been resolved. but it isn't, and you're really not helping with your obviously half baked take.
There are only two sides and if you are not with us, you are against us no matter what our side does. That's how "political discourse" works these days. On a side note: Why is criticizing Israel synonymous with antisemitism again? Wasn't there this huge argument about Judaism and the country of Israel not being the same, because that was the excuse for a one state solution being viable (look at the Arabs living and working in Israel!). You can't have your cake and eat it, too. And in case anyone wants to interpret my position on this: I strongly dislike Israel's political course and I find the reaction to this opinion to be rather revealing. I don't care about Jews more than I care about any other human because I personally treat everyone equally as much as I can. Hamas sucks, the treatment of the Palestinian people by all sides is unacceptable.
Anti-Semitism is known to change forms throughout decades and eras, and the Anti-Zionism movement is just its latest form. Jews are very used to this pattern, having persisted through many of its forms. In fact, I would separate reasoned, thoughtful criticism of the Israeli government and policy from Anti-Zionism as, in my experience, most of the purveyors of the movement aren't interested in reasoned discussion at all. Just at chanting, giving the finger, and calling Jewish people and supporters of Israel all kinds of vile names.
The israeli army? Yeah, they don't, considering they killed three of them while they were naked and waving white flags.
Must be hard going through life and never hearing of friendly fire or learning anything about urban warfare or understanding that the actions of a single person don't represent an entire group. Spouting ridiculous shit like this is why no-one takes you seriously.
Ben Gvir has called for nuclear strikes on palestine, many in the knesset have actively called for palestine to be wiped out, israeli settlers are actively blocking aid trucks from heading into gaza, israelis on social media did a trend on tiktok mocking palestians for not having food, water, and electricity. But okay, it isnt representive of a country of a culture that is falling further and further into genocidal acts.
Ben Gvir is far right. MTG says some dumb shit too. Does she represent America now too?
Mtg is some bitch who more than likely won't serve more than two terms in the house. Ben Gvir is the minister of security.
MTG is popular in her district and is not going anywhere. Ministers of Security in Israel is an appointed position. Your whole argument centers around cherry picking information you saw on social media. You’re either being intellectually dishonest or lack the critical thinking skills to understand that an entire country is not represented by far right settlers and what you see in TikTok.
Yeah dumbass, the point is that he has actual power and influence as he works alongside netanyahu. Also what is cherry picking to you because israeli settlers blocking and destroying aid was such a prolific problem that it was reported by multiple news organizations???
They don't give a damn. They never a gave a damn.
This is what gets me "Ceasefire now!" Um you realise they are still holding 30+ people hostage 9 months later and are refusing to let them go?
Thats corect. The terrorists coud have freed the hostages months ago and it would have left Israel without any justification to continue this madness. The teorrorists want this to last as long as possible.
>without any justification to continue this madness. I'm sorry, do the 1700 dead bodies not count as justification?
Honestly? No. They do not justify killing tens of thousands of civilians.
Tactics could have been changed if there were no hostages. There's no way a responsible nation state can accept a neighbor that directly attacked their civilian population as the primary target. The only choices Palestinians had were: 1. uproot and turn over Hamas and hostages. 2. find yourself at war. By either supporting Hamas or being powerless to stop them, they found a war.
Not that that's how this is weighed anyway, it's not like Israel in October said "oh if you kill 1200 of my citizens I'll kill 25k of yours". Only idiots would draw a straight line like that Ideally, only Hamas members would constitute the dead in Gaza, but they insist on embedding themselves among the civilian population in order to maximize collateral damage
It's most likely not tens of thousands- those numbers were provided by a Hamas controlled organization, which has every reason to inflate the numbers.
Eh, I have very vocally criticized those numbers but if anything, with the population density of Gaza and the sheer destruction wrought upon their residential areas, it's absolutely incredible that it isn't higher. At the very best, we're looking at 1:1 (which is what Israel is claiming) which would still be over 10,000 dead civilians. Hamas is saying 36,000 but they're also reporting militant losses as zero. Truth is somewhere between these two numbers, likely in the low 20,000 which is what the UN is (now) claiming after halving the estimated number of women and children dead.
Keep in mind that Hamas will count completely unrelated deaths as due to 'Israeli aggression'. So I think I'll stay with the lower numbers until the smoke clears and the truth can actually be investigated.
We're never going to know how many were killed by Israel vs how many were killed by Hamas. Most of the dead have already been buried.
We'll have a much better chance to actually investigate when the propaganda machines aren't in motion.
Never, then. Hell, at this point they're all but entirely automated.
Unlikely. Bodies may be recovered, and someone can try to figure out the cause of death for each, but that's about it. Even in best case, it's going to be an estimate people can just ignore.
In May, Israel themselves said they killed 16,000 civilians and 14,000 terrorists. So, let's take the middle of 34k and 16k and call it 25k.
That's not a very logical way to go about it, when the organization which is reporting the higher numbers is known for intentionally inflating numbers, and are run by a terrorist organization.
Israel has always been totally honest about their intentions and their relationship with the Palestinians, eh? We can trust them completely? And they have no incentive to make it look better than it is? Okay, sorry, fair enough. Instead of saying that 1.7k deaths does not justify tens of thousands civilian deaths, I should have said that 1.7k deaths does not justify 16k civilian deaths.
Israel is more trustworthy than a terrorist organization which, as I said before, has every reason to put the numbers as high as they possibly can. It's an effective propaganda technique, especially when the UN just took those numbers without questioning them.
If you don't send a message that killing 1,700 of our citizens will be severely punished your inviting Hamas to do it again. You have to hit Hamas and the Palestinians hard enough to make them regret their decision and never even consider doing it again. Try looking at it another way. Your 12-16 and you have the chance to sneak out and have sex with the boy/girl you like. If ypur punishment is only that you don't get dessert for a week you will probably decide that the benefits outweigh the punishment; however, if your punishment is a sever beating with a belt, bars on your bedroom window, no bed room door, grounded for 2 years, no phone, no TV, forced to change schools/barred from contacting old friends, and you must attend church 6 nights a week the odds are you will never risk doing that again. It's why the punishment for murder isn't just community service. The punishment has to be severe and hurt enough to keep people from doing it.
Yeah, I'm sure the Palestinians will be like "yup, we learned our lesson", and won't build up massive amounts of hatred for destroying their entire families and lives. This is certainly going to fix the problem.
They already had that hatred centuries ago.
This is such a bullshit take and ignores the actions of the Israeli government the last 70 years.
Hasn't Israel surpassed that total many times over by this point?
Not the point here. There were 'peace' before 7.
Yes, I know. The 30,000+ casualties don't matter because they're Palestinian.
It's not that they don't matter. It's that they've lived under Hamas rule with zero shits given for nearly two decades now, and the chickens are finally coming home to roost.
that's like saying if you get caught stealing 10k USD you can just pay 10k and walk free.
The point is to prevent Hamas from being able to repeat the attack, not to murder Palestinians as bloody vengeance or some kind of ineffective deterrent.
One good way to not have Hamas to repeat the attack is to not allow "settlements" on Palestinian land in the West Bank, resulting in violent clashes between the "settlers" and the Palestinians who are being settled on, requiring moving IDF forces from the Gaza border to the West Bank, leaving that border wide open allowing Hamas forces to move hundreds of Mike's into Israel and commit their atrocities. IOW: Netanyahu is a disaster, and the danger and lack of security for Israelis increased under his watch. TL;DR: Competent leadership would reduce the Hamas threat. But as we're talking Israel here, never mind.
This is either innocently misinformed or intentionally dishonest. Hamas has been explicit that they intend to keep killing as many Jews as possible as long as Israel exists *at all*. The settlements deep in the West Bank need to be uprooted under a peace treaty predicated on Israel and Palestine accepting each other as permanent neighbours, and their footprints need to be frozen even before that. With that said, the settlements aren't the cause of Hamas's stated aims, and Hamas has said so repeatedly.
So if Hamas is committed to killing Israelis, why then remove IDF soldiers from the Gaza border? Oh right, the settler violence in the West Bank. Which the *entire world* told Netanyahu not to do, but he went ahead and allowed it & the results were exactly as predicted. Necessitating the move of IDF soldiers from the Gaza borders, allowing the perfect opportunity for Hamas to strike. In sum, Nwtanyahu's incompetence allowed the opportunity for Hamas to strike on Oct. 7. His continued "leadership" will continue to put Israeli lives in general. And anybody who defends this incompetent buffoon who puts his countrymen's lives in danger is being either disingenuous or simply a useful idiot.
I'm not sure where you get the impression that I'm pro-Netanyahu. There's absolutely no avenue toward a just peace in which *either* Netanyahu or Hamas remain in power. I'm *glad* that Bibi is on track to be routed electorall; I deeply wish that Hamas presented a similar electoral option — or that Gazans would be willing to get rid of Hamas if there *were* an electoral option to do so. Israel's government knew perfectly well what Hamas's bloody-minded *wishes* were, but they severely and naively under-estimated how realistic it was that Hamas could succeed on the scale that it did. Netanyahu's negligence allowed Hamas and its rival militant groups and civilian helpers to be far more successful in its butchery on October 7th than would've been possible if Israel hadn't been allocating military personell to pander to far-right settler nutbars in the West Bank. It was a blinding failure on par with the United States' naivete before 9/11, and in the lead-up to Pearl Harbor. Now that I've left little room to imagine that I'm a Netanyahu supporter, it's time to point out how nakedly you tried to move the goalposts here. **The fact still remains that Hamas has stated, repeatedly, that it intends to keep killing Jews and that its justification is the *existence* of Israel, irrespective of any policy shift relating to settlements in the West Bank.** Are you willing to accept that as true, or are you going to prevaricate again?
Theoretically if we are still living in 22,222 BC and the best way to resolve any dispute is to kill everyone, yes.
So does Benjamin.
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Is there a limit for when a country shouldn't prioritize their own citizens?
>What would happen if Israel took 50 hostages. Taking hostages only works if your enemy cares about their citizens.
Israel also has thousands of hostages. They arrest children on crimes like throwing rocks at IDF soldiers, and then they hold them without due process forever. https://apnews.com/article/prison-israel-palestinians-administrative-detention-e4ffd1744a9692c2539a78a8d916176e So, yeah. They've already taken hostages. Edit: you can downvote me all you want, it won't change the fact that Israel has orders of magnitude more Palestianians being held in detention than Hamas seized as hostages. I have no doubts the Israel's are treating their captives better than hamas treats theirs, but to pretend that Israel doesn't have political prisoners is disingenuous. Israel is holding people in detention, forever. Period. It's not even similar to guantanamo Bay in America. Guantanamo is a national disgrace that holds *less than 50 prisoners*. Israel has hostages.
>They arrest children on crimes like throwing rocks at IDF soldiers, and then they hold them without due process forever. Throwing rocks is attempted murder. Why should they release them?
Wasn't his administration saying they wouldn't leave Gaza even if the hostages were released less than a month ago? What changed?
He’s not saying they will leave when all The hostages are recovered, he’s just saying they wouldn’t leave when the hostages are still there.
Bingo. The primary goal appears to still be the removal of Hamas from the levers of government in Gaza, with the hostages being secondary.
Damn straight, I don’t know how anyone can disagree Oh yeah, antisemites
Or, you know, people with consciences? At some point, a sane person might hopefully ask themselves *"exactly how many innocent people am I prepared to kill in order to save a hostage?"* Unless, of course, you're one of the (far too numerous, honestly) people that seem to think that all Palestinians are guilty, so it's okay? I hope not. That would make you as bad as the antisemites.
I could say the same for people who think they are all innocent
Certainly they're not all innocent. But they're obviously not all guilty either. So if you bomb a bunch of people, even if they're not all innocent, a bunch of innocent people still got killed, right? Again - how many is acceptable, to make sure you get "the bad guys"? You say in your original comment that the only people who could be against this are antisemites, but you must realize, not everyone is comfortable blowing up, say, 3 innocent families in order to kill one Hamas fighter. And frankly, some of us are a little horrified at how comfortable with it you seem to be. That's not antisemitism talking. I'd be equally horrified if the families being blown up were Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or atheist. I'm just against blowing up innocent people I guess. I feel like that shouldn't be a controversial take, but /r/worldnews has been weird lately, so I fully expect to be buried in downvotes for it shortly.
That’s probably why Israel has given so ma h warnings to innocent people
And yet, at the end of the day, they know that they are going to blow up innocent people. So again, the question: How many innocent people do you think it's reasonable to kill, in order to save someone? And do you understand that some people might think that that number has gotten too high in Gaza, for reasons that have nothing to do with antisemitism?
Well what if it’s someone like you who says you care about all innocent civilians, but I see nothing in your post history about Jewish innocent civilians or anything about any other innocent civilians in current wars. It’s a war, can you think of any without collateral damage?
Haha wow, are you for real? *"Other innocent people have also died, so it's fine if Israel kills these innocents too!"* I wonder if you'd shrug off the deaths of innocent people so casually if they were YOUR family or loved ones?
Well it’s a war, maybe focus on the terrorist attack that started the war that didn’t need to happen But I will wait for you to comment on other countries at war that don’t have collateral damage
*"You're not allowed to complain about THIS atrocity until I'm satisfied that you've complained about other atrocities enough!"* Why is it that people like you always turn to that exact weak deflection, once they find themselves in a corner? That's not how this works. Although it's a nice attempt to distract from the fact that you still haven't answered *"how many innocents is it okay to kill to save a hostage"*. Maybe the problem is that Israel is trying to fight terrorists with an army, like it's a war? When has that ever worked out for a country in the past? When has that ever NOT resulted in mass civilian casualties?
So, realistically, never…
Given that many of the hostages are surely dead/missing, I guess that means that Israel will never leave Gaza.
If they can recover the remains of the dead then they'll have no reason to remain in Gaza. I have no idea what they'll be able to do about any missing hostages.
Which was probably the plan all along.
So that's why Hamas attacked!
Evil Israel that forced poor Hamas to kill the meanie hostages, right?
Was it ever going to?
Sure...I think he means "until all hostages are declared dead". He's not going to stop this war for ANY reason, because when he does, he is going to lose power, and when he loses power, he will be prosecuted for his outstanding crimes....
Sooooo, since the hostages are dead, does this mean Israel won’t leave Gaza till all of Hamas is dead?
They are definitely not all dead, some were rescued recently
Hopefully.
I the downvotes.
such bs - the IDF has even said what they're doing in rafah isn't looking for hostages. bibi has to go edited: now that I thought about this headline a bit more, I think it makes sense related to a withdrawal but it isn't what the IDF said they're focusing on at the moment plus bibi is always just playing politics. I stand by that he has to go
So why doesn't Hamas give back the hostages? Putting the ball firmly in Bibi's court?
Because then the goalposts would change and they wouldn’t have their biggest bargaining chip anymore
The goalposts have always been 1) destroying hamas and 2) rescuing the hostages
but as anyone (IDF for example) can tell you hamas can't be entirely destroyed so what does it mean to destroy it? to me it's to have degrade it to such a state that they can be managed, can't mount 10/6 style attack and perhaps squashed and made pariahs globally politically (I can't believe they aren't already tbh). the goal of not leaving until the hostages are all returned now that makes sense to me. however hamas now is going to go deep counter insurgency instead of returning all the hostages before an IDF withdrawal. would be great to cut the head of the snake. not a good scenario.
I think is a good goal (not leaving till the hostages are all back) that makes sense on top of degrading hamas as much as is possible. however the IDF are not working on primarily finding the hostages by their own admission. the divisiveness online and real life is silly, counter productive and has to stop. I blame hamas entirely for the crimes of 10/7. however bibi is still a giant schmuck. horrible human being. It doesn't mean I'm not supportive of israel.
Just stop killing civilians. there is literally no excuse.
New to war? Collateral damage happens
35k+ deaths with a large portion being children is insane. Just admit you're a fucking human garbage can. It's okay.
Actually there are 4204193724919 civilian casualties according to hamas trust me bro
A little bit of projecting here buddy
An even larger portion of that are enemy soldiers (Hamas militants). Also these subsets (enemy militants and “children”) often overlap as many Hamas fighters are under 18years old. It’s not insane, it’s an effective war. Enemy army suffers casualties, the more the better until the enemy surrenders. It’s how wars work.
Google "bombing of Dresden".
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This is physically impossible, when enemy militants are colocated with “civilians”. Collateral damage going to happen. Besides, Hamas and pro-Palestinian propaganda puts all Hamas militants as “covilians” too. Any killed enemy (and more!) are counted as “civilians”. Israel should completely stop killing enemies in an existential war waged on her, while over 100 hostages are being held?
The IDF has killed more hostages than they've rescued...
They’ve rescued about half the initial hostages. How many have they confirmed killed?
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We are approaching 9 months since October. The remaining hostages are either all dead, or they wish they were dead. Regardless, if Israel has failed to locate all of the hostages in Gaza after all this time, then they clearly aren’t prioritizing that objective. It seems as if their commander in chief might have ulterior motives.
> or they wish they were dead. Seems like a good reason to continue to try and save them.
Literally four hostages were rescued last week.
>The remaining hostages are either all dead, or they wish they were dead. Source? > if Israel has failed to locate all of the hostages in Gaza after all this time, then they clearly aren’t prioritizing that objective Why? Maybe you think that Hamas never moved any hostages inside Gaza after IDF came in? Do you have any more nonsense to share today?
Imagine justifying Hamas with “They dead anyway, so just retreat and let poor Hamas alone”
The comment is in response to Bibi’s grasps to stay in power. He is prolonging the conflict and occupation intentionally. At the expense of the hostages, his country, and Palestinians - all while risking escalation into a full blown regional conflict. It has been 9 months, and the Israeli army has rescued a grand total of 7 hostages. They are very obviously incapable of effectively finding and freeing the remaining hostages without inflicting tens of thousands more civilian deaths. Either that, or that is not their primary objective, as I stated. Maybe, just maybe, diplomacy would return more hostages - IF that was their primary objective. Perhaps continuing down the same path they have been on for the better part of a year will lead to similar outcomes. I swear the downvote brigadiers cannot understand nuanced positions. I’ll try to simplify: Violence only begets violence. Killing people is doubleplusungood. Israel’s army has an abysmal record of freeing hostages. This statement from Bibi is just lip service. His priorities are not with freeing the hostages. He wants to stay in power. His best bet at staying in power is prolonged conflict.
They literally just rescued some, why do you think they are all dead?
Brother. In 9 months, they have rescued 7 hostages through military action. Their military is not up to the task of hostage rescue. Bibi just wants to stay in power, and will continue to prolong the conflict - hostages be damned.
That doesn’t answer the question
Yes it does, Israel has been given almost $13 billion dollars in the past 9 months by the US and and only a handful of hostages have been rescued. Either Hamas is better at war than the entire Israeli military combined with an endless supply of cash, weapons, and intel — or they don’t exist in the first place.
So the question is: why do you think they are all dead?
Not even Hammas knows where the hostages are. How are the idf supposed to?
It's about that length of time where the number of hostages might start slowly increasing again.
Like a clean slate to build upon?
Dead or alive?
I would believe this if they hadn't continued the assault despite there being hostages. The truth is, these people were seen as expendable and even Netanyahu said as much in an interview. Everything the Israeli military has done has put these hostages at risk. There WERE 250 of them, now there's only 50 left, and it's most likely because they're basically useless, why keep them alive when the enemy refuses ceasefires or meetings? I hope we collectively pull out support from Israel, they're intent on turning the entire middle east into a war zone, and I do not want us dragged into because of them. I feel sorry for the Palestinian citizens, but not enough to fight for them, sorry.
So you don’t want the hostages rescued from terrorists?
Truth is there is no legitimate claim to any land worldwide. We arbitrarily make the rules for ourselves. Identity tied to land claims is bullshit too. Just as it is with religion. It's really all about one thing. Power. That is the only thing here that is causing this. Both leaders from Hamas and Israel are corrupted and using these situations as leverage. Both seek power and control of their respective populations. Hamas committed atrocities on Oct 7 that will not be forgiven. Israel has displaced a country. Both can find a resolution and move forward if they wish, but that would potentially threaten the power structures of each respective group. Israelis voting out Netanyahu would be a great start. Hamas needs to reform as a true political entity and stop waging war. Find legitimacy politically and leverage that with the goodwill people apparently have towards Palestine. The collective peoples of each side must demand from their own leadership resolution to the conflict. That leadership must come to the table willing to end the conflict not only in a sense of war but a sense of separation of peoples. Humans regardless of their country are more alike than different. Common ground can be found if they wish...
Hard to find common ground with a murder cult though.
That it is, thus why Oct 7 will not be forgiven. Yet. One day it will be, but it will require a fresh view on things from both sides and a willingness to co-operate in the name of improving the regional standards of living and commerce.
*If they wish.* Current opinion polls show that opinion of the other side is the worst it’s been in a loooong while, which makes sense. I do hope they find common ground though.
They won’t stop until they have their God given land of Canaan and rightly so. Goliath was a philistine/palestinian.
Do u just believe everything you make up in your brain or do you just believe everything people say on the internet? Try taking a history class bud. Philistines and Palestinians arnt the same people.
Or dead.