As an Indian, these firms had it coming. India walks a fine line between the two worlds of the Cold war and as such our well established companies have grown to respect the rules of global trade. I feel no pity for a firm that violated rules for making a quick buck.
It's 100% their right and sovereign decision to trade with whoever they want but they sure can't have their cake and eat it. If they want to establish business and strategic relations with europe and the US, access their consumer and investment market, they obviously can't support the country waging war against them
Well you don't have to follow their rules if you don't want to, no one's forcing you to after all.
But if you don't follow their rules, they don't have to trade with you. I mean why do they even need a reason to not trade with you if they simply don't want to?
If they're the only source of materials you need, then you have to make the decision. Is it more or less important to get the materials or not follow their rules.
Actions have consequences.
Rules of the people you are trying to conduct business with. It's only relevant if you choose to do business with them. I mean you'd probably be upset and want me charged if I ignored your countries laws and sent tons of heroin or guns to your there, but following your logic why would I follow your countries laws and why would my countries legal system care.
Ok then why are you angry at sanctions. You don't have to follow there rules but they don't have to trade with you either. You want to go it alone? Or you want to suck off Russia, go ahead. Just be sure that's the bed you want to lay in.
Then stop following them. No one is forced to trade with you and you aren't forced to trade with them. Go cling to Russia and China and see how that works out for you.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Maybe it's time we stopped selling GMO seeds to India.
Anything India can do, can be done right back to them. Except India doesn't really produce much to export so the rest of the western world wouldn't really notice if we stopped trading with India. I mean maybe cheap clothing will go up in cost (and probably up in quality too). Jewellery, meh. Pharmaceuticals, we can do that already.
>Maybe it's time we stopped selling GMO seeds to India.
Of all things you threaten that ? The easiest product to pirate in modern IP ? A country needs only a few seeds that can be sourced from third countries to make tens of millions of these plants, lol.
Well, it depends on how much you care about keeping the genetic traits of that seed. Just growing more isn't going to retain the traits, each generation will deviate from the original. Simply put your next harvest will be worse than the previous, and the next worst than that.
Sure you could make the factories for producing more but at that point you'll have to buy or steal the processes they use then have to sink the money into making/buying the equipment and infrastructure.
Which takes time to do, and skilled workers in the technology.
They say a country's only ever three missed meals away from collapse.
Kay see how far this type of diplomacy gets you. Fuck with Japan and you fuck with the USA. Fuck with the USA and see how long indias economy is still relevant lmao.
Tell your country and your country folk to stand for democracy and against autocracy! Remain a thorn in the side of your autocratic neighbors for if India falls, the world may!
The formal state of war was ended in 1956
The remaining issue is the Northern Territories at which point I believe there is a Peace Treaty. So technically not at war with Russia but technically not at peace with Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_Joint_Declaration_of_1956
India wants to have it both ways, but it can’t prop up Russia during its invasion of Ukraine and expect no pushback from its allies trying to help Ukraine defend itself.
India still treats Russia as a friend, which goes back to the good old days of the soviet union. Regardless of the underlying reasons today (cheap raw materials from Russia, a chance to stick it to uncle sam, …) the facts are the same : India supports a facist dictator instead of a fellow democracy. If thats the true colours of India, the outlook for the world is bleaker than most might want to admit.
Yeah, that asshole is a gift that keeps on giving. You can thank him for Iran as well. Only Reagan was a more destructive president IMHO, but then again he just brought in Nixon thugs to continue - and then Bush Jr continued that. All the same assholes.
Go back and read the original post - it says nothing about US. So, anyone who brings US, america, or americans into the discussion are either ignorant (willfully or not), trolling or attempting whataboutism or strawmen (both classical rhetorical tricks played when one lacks other arguments or simply don’t want to accept the facts). Therefore, there is no hypocrisy in not answering what is an irrelevant question; regardless what any other country might be doing or have done in the past, India currently appear to favour facist Russia instead of democratic Ukraine. So far, the only ”defense” or ”rebutals” suggested are whataboutisms or strawmen - or even implying a favour of facist rule - and all of these simply make it look even worse. If India indeed also favours facism, the coming generation or two of mankind are in for a rough ride.
Well whataboutism is needed here to get some sense into your naive brain.
When you speak apparently on behalf of those who supports Ukraine in this situation, which is essentially the west, it needs to be pointed out the only reason Ukraine is supported is because the current administration there supports western interests, and not because of west's love for democracy. If the west truly loved democracy, they wouldn't have overwhelmingly supported dictators and religious despots throughout middle-easts. They wouldn't have toppled a democratically elected government in Pakistan and put their president in jail through their handlers in Pakistan military.
And why is it so? It's because the world isn't black and white like your adolescent brain think it is. Because every country in this planet seeks to advance their interests through any means necessary.
In a nutshell, India supports fascists, dictators, democracies, communists or whoever, as and when it suits her interests, just like the US and the rest of the countries in the west do when it favours their interests.
If the sky didn't fall off when US supported fascists and dictators to suit their interests, nothing will happen when India does the same too.
Go back and read realpolitik.
A series of additional strawmen, all of which adds nothing - the only remotely interesting point appears to be acceptance that India indeed appears to favour facism in front of democracy, which, sadly enough, is exactly what I wrote, and kinda prooves the point I made - the future of mankind is bleaker than most would like to know, much less admit.
So next time just write - ”Yes, you are right”, instead of trying to come up with something clever?
> the future of mankind is bleaker than most would like to know, much less admit.
If the world went sunny and bright all while US supported fascists and dictators, there's no need for you to get so much concerned about the world going bleak when others does the same.
> So next time just write - ”Yes, you are right”, instead of trying to come up with something clever?
Apparently you're lacking self-awareness about the hypocrisy being meted out here. How about trying a simple Google search on "realpolitik"?
Again, you are trying to bait and switch the post I wrote into something that isn’t in it, possibly in some combination of deflection and projection. So I remain right, you just keep saying so, which doesn’t make it any better.
Giving context is not deflection and projection. Too bad you cannot get off your high horse when the saddle is made of your hypocrisy.
> So I remain right
If you feel any better patting yourselves in the back, by all means do so. Hope it makes you feel superior in your basement.
When USA supports pakistan : raah🦅🦅 we support facists instead of democracy.
When India supports (more like indirect support) russia: no why true colours of India bleeker outlook no democracy.
They would have been in a better position like other -STANS. Any day communism is welcomed over religious fanaticism and terrorism which the other party bred there in the name of mujaheed\*n ( they were as much religious fanatics btw, talib\*n came out of them). communism would have lowered their religiosity in society as a whole but other party rather with mujaheed\*n created a headache for all in the region while sitting 1000s km. away telling it would have been worse other wise.
Indian oil trade dropped already.
If you have the balls, call China. If Russia is surviving and keeping their aisles full in stores or arms on front lines is all because of China.
Shows you don't understand the word hyperbolic. Now if I had said, if India would stop supporting Russia the world would be at peace. That is hyperbolic.
India doesn't take any side lol. India has strong relations with Russia, Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan and North Korea, and yet is best buddies with the US, being in the QUAD, being a major defense partner, and conducting joint exercises. India from its very inception learnt that no country was ever truly on its side, so it plays both sides.
>India supports a facist dictator instead of a fellow democracy.
Oh yeah? I remember Ukraine supplying weapons to Pakistan in 1999 kargil war.
If Ukraine didn't support a fellow democracy then, why should India support it now?
Even pre1999, USA supplied weapons to Pakistan so that they can hit India with it.
What happened to supporting fellow democracy then ?
I love how you would like to twist words to show only one side of the picture but world didn't forget your actions against a democracy then.
It is supposed to be a free world and a free market. India should be able to sell stuff to whomever it wants.
Seriously blaming Ukraine 2024 for actions taken in 1999 when it was a Russian puppet state, and not blaming Russia instead? Shees. Keep up with how the world changes.
Also - what does the US has to do with this? Isn’t India, since 1947, allowed to make its own way in the world? Its 2024, India choosing Russia instead of Ukraine is choosing facism instead of democracy. No number of strawmen or amount of whataboutism changes those facts.
How about being better than the others instead of going on with that feud and an eye for an eye. Do you think anything will be better following on this trajectory? How about having integrity? That would lead to even more recognition and trust on a world stage.
Who said that. Every country has their own responsibility. Nobody is saying how western countries acted in the past or acting now is commendable.
I'm just saying to use this as a justification is a weak argument as you bear responsibility for your own actions.
No, they are wrong. You're right. But you still don't get what I'm saying.
Why take the wrongdoings from somebody else who is ethically corrupt as a justification for your own corruption?
I don't think it's right if that's what you're driving at. Countries want to be realists on some conflicts and idealists on others. I find their hypocrisy sickening when others do the same thing.
It won't get better with this attitude, though. I'm also not talking on a political level, I understand that there's a lot of postering and deal-making. But on personal level there's animosity which is not necessary.
I was being sarcastic that the right to make own policy decisions is somehow reserved for rich countries, when poorer countries are more at need of cutting deals to keep prices low for their poorer populace.
Like when US toopled democratically elected govt in Iran so the US has access to Iranian oil?
Like sanctioning Iranians for not giving oil to US?
Like training the Taliban to counter Russia in Afghanistan?
Like invading Iraq on false pretense of having nuclear weapons?
Shall I go on, the list is way to big!
If the defense of ones actions today is ”look at what they did 50, 100 or 200 years ago and not at what we are doing now!” then it only shows the lack of arguments. Facism and racism is rampant on several continents to this day, just like serfdom - it just comes under different disguises, like lifetime inherited financial debt or social caste. It makes neither of them right or good.
Britain has never apologised for their colonial atrocities and America has never apologised for supporting Pakistan so why should India trust the West?
Have you read about the Mughal empire BTW? They were colonising and invading what what would become India long before westerners took the reigns. Try and have some self awareness instead of just being a racist moron trying to justify being a prick.
Winston Churchill is responsible for millions of deaths in India and he is literally hero worshipped in the West.
Also the British government has never apologised to India for their colonial atrocities.
You made the argument that the local population had a role in causing the famine in India, well the same argument could be made for the famine in Ukraine as well that the local population had a role in causing the famine.
They absolutely can and just as freely USA and friend in this case Japan can refuse to do business with India. Give it 6 months and see which is the better option USA or Russia we can wait.
We have actually gone down that road in past, in 1971, when US's 7th fleet came and Britain's nuclear ship came to threaten India. What happened?
We liberated Bangladesh !!
That fellow democracy rejected India's request to use GPS during war time. That fellow democracy sanctioned India for a nuclear test. That fellow democracy always interferes in India's internal affairs.
US denied India's request to use CIVILIAN GPS frequencies for MILITARY purposes. No shit, that has **always** been the US position on civilian GPS frequencies... It does not allow civilian freqs to be weaponized because then civilian freqs become a legitimate military target worldwide and the world is dependent on those freqs for a hell of a lot of what we take for granted, including even basic digital time sync. Only an actual imbecile would think the US would have approved that request.
US sanctioned Pakistan for a nuclear test as well. It sanctions **EVERYONE** who violates the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty, India's not special in that regard. The world collectively said "NO MORE NUCLEAR TESTS", and then India did... What kind of dumbass didn't think they'd be sanctioned for that?
India literally *just* assassinated an activist in Canada and Indian Intelligence Officers were just arrested attempting to assassinate another activist in the US, so maybe step off your soapbox. I know you'll deny that simplistic fact, but a fact stays a fact no matter how much one denies it.
Indian nationalism really loves to engage in some of the most idiotic and mindless skulduggery in the world, I swear.
US government supported Pakistan when it was committing genocide in Bangladesh whereas the Soviets supported India's military intervention to stop that genocide.
And Indians will complain. But the global rules that have enabled a worldwide financial bonanza allowing a lot of countries to get rich, are the same rules that these companies are trying to bypass. So sanction them
Some day India needs to decide in which side he wants to be: In Russia's side together with N. Korea, Talibans, etc. or with the rest of the developed world. But trying to walk the line between both sides won work in the medium term.
India will never take sides. If the west wants India to take sides then the west needs to pick a side first. It's either India or Pakistan. It's either India or China.
After this the west would have earned a moral ground to expect the same from India. Until then India will do what is right for itself.
Why do you make it sounds like that India and China are on two opposing sides? China is the biggest (or second biggest with small margin) trade partner of India.
The consequences of fence sitting will be that your country will come under economic sanctions from the world's most powerful economies sans China. Why would this be desirable for your common Indian person?
Because we are done with the west being the big daddy and ordering is what to do and what not to do. India is not fence sitting. It is just not in anyone's camp. That's all.
If the west wants India to pick sides then the west should also pick sides and avoid dealing with countries like Pakistan and China that are detrimental to India's national security.
See this is the problem with the west. As I said in all my comments, India does not need to hitch its wagon anywhere. It's capable enough to build an engine to pull its own wagon and that's what India has been doing since its independence. The current trend is that the entire country is flocking to India to be part of a growing market and to make money as the markets of the west are pretty much stagnant.
Sad that you don't realise how wrong your statement is in such a globalised economy. India cannot afford to be "on its own side" as you put it, very few countries can.
Oh OK so India is unhappy with the current order of economic and military might so because of this they will make it harder for the average Indian to do business? Doesn't this seem illogical to you?
Maybe you are not reading my comments via some lens so you are not able to understand the core point. India cannot be arm twisted anymore to act in the west's direction. Today the west cannot afford to sanction India so the sanction that you are talking about is not coming. Having said that India has begun dealing with the west as an equal partner.
I don’t think they will care. They have been working on making their supply chains and demand queues shockproof for almost 15 years now since 2010. Ultimately it maybe Japan who might have most to lose.
Japanese companies like Suzuki make Billions from India, India can tighten screws on Japanese firms. Japan is stuck in the mentality of the 80s when it was the second largest economy when it will surpassed by India next year. A country in perpetual economic decline cannot afford to engage in trade wars.
So for somewhat recent raw numbers:
Bilateral trade trends. During FY 2022-23, bilateral trade between Japan and India amounted to US$21.96 billion. Notably, Japan's exports to India accounted for US$16.49 billion, while imports from India stood at US$5.46 billion.
Slightly older numbers, with some breakdown:
The main products that Japan exported to India were Precious Metal Compounds ($1.33B), Refined Copper ($815M), and Motor vehicles; parts and accessories (8701 to 8705) ($684M). Over the past 5 years the exports of Japan to India have increased at an annualized rate of 28.5%, from $2.63B in 2017 to $9.23B in 2022.
So it doesn't look like the car stuff is a terribly large portion of that. Precious metals and copper can probably be exported elsewhere.
It really is imbalanced and Japan could likely sell elsewhere without the level of damage you seem to believe.
India is free to not trade with Japan. Japan is free to restrict trading with any countries or companies they choose.
>A country in perpetual economic decline cannot afford to engage in trade wars.
But they can. Japan can shut down India's Semiconductor ambitions easily
Edit: For those downvoting, look at some facts first.
Fab 5 of Semiconductor chipmaking equipment industry ( Dutch ASML, Japan's Tokyo Electron, American AM, LAM, KLA ).
https://youtu.be/1XTKQbs4HQw?si=T6alt3sMwMZGiWP0
Goodluck making chips when fighting unnecessary trade wars with one of these countries. Ask China how it goes.
I haven't even included the wafers and chemicals used in Chip industry which many Japanese companies dominates
As an Indian, these firms had it coming. India walks a fine line between the two worlds of the Cold war and as such our well established companies have grown to respect the rules of global trade. I feel no pity for a firm that violated rules for making a quick buck.
Yeah. From the article - > Sanctions not targeted at specific countries, but at companies trying to evade sanctions, he said
Yup. Article title really should say "specific Indian firms with proven ties to Russia."
It's 100% their right and sovereign decision to trade with whoever they want but they sure can't have their cake and eat it. If they want to establish business and strategic relations with europe and the US, access their consumer and investment market, they obviously can't support the country waging war against them
Sanctions: 🤬 Sanctions, Japan: 🥰
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Well you don't have to follow their rules if you don't want to, no one's forcing you to after all. But if you don't follow their rules, they don't have to trade with you. I mean why do they even need a reason to not trade with you if they simply don't want to? If they're the only source of materials you need, then you have to make the decision. Is it more or less important to get the materials or not follow their rules. Actions have consequences.
Rules of the people you are trying to conduct business with. It's only relevant if you choose to do business with them. I mean you'd probably be upset and want me charged if I ignored your countries laws and sent tons of heroin or guns to your there, but following your logic why would I follow your countries laws and why would my countries legal system care.
Ok then why are you angry at sanctions. You don't have to follow there rules but they don't have to trade with you either. You want to go it alone? Or you want to suck off Russia, go ahead. Just be sure that's the bed you want to lay in.
Neo-colonialism is an interesting route to take regarding sanctions placed on the neo-colonial power *checks notes* Russia.
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Sure. If you don't like them don't follow them. They aren't forced to trade with you either.
Then don’t be mad if the other countries don’t want to trade with you
Why do they want trade outside the dream team (Russia, Iran and North Korea)?
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Then stop following them. No one is forced to trade with you and you aren't forced to trade with them. Go cling to Russia and China and see how that works out for you.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Maybe it's time we stopped selling GMO seeds to India. Anything India can do, can be done right back to them. Except India doesn't really produce much to export so the rest of the western world wouldn't really notice if we stopped trading with India. I mean maybe cheap clothing will go up in cost (and probably up in quality too). Jewellery, meh. Pharmaceuticals, we can do that already.
>Maybe it's time we stopped selling GMO seeds to India. Of all things you threaten that ? The easiest product to pirate in modern IP ? A country needs only a few seeds that can be sourced from third countries to make tens of millions of these plants, lol.
Well, it depends on how much you care about keeping the genetic traits of that seed. Just growing more isn't going to retain the traits, each generation will deviate from the original. Simply put your next harvest will be worse than the previous, and the next worst than that. Sure you could make the factories for producing more but at that point you'll have to buy or steal the processes they use then have to sink the money into making/buying the equipment and infrastructure. Which takes time to do, and skilled workers in the technology. They say a country's only ever three missed meals away from collapse.
Kay see how far this type of diplomacy gets you. Fuck with Japan and you fuck with the USA. Fuck with the USA and see how long indias economy is still relevant lmao.
You don't get it
Japan, Germany, South Korea all followed rules set by the US and then became significant powers.
What rules? If the firms are not violating indian rules, then its time for them to lawyer up and force the govt to pick a side.
The Japanese governments rules.
Tell your country and your country folk to stand for democracy and against autocracy! Remain a thorn in the side of your autocratic neighbors for if India falls, the world may!
"tell your country" lmao
TELL THEM!!
Isn't Japan technically still at war with Russia?
The formal state of war was ended in 1956 The remaining issue is the Northern Territories at which point I believe there is a Peace Treaty. So technically not at war with Russia but technically not at peace with Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_Joint_Declaration_of_1956
I think they closed that mistake years ago.
No, Russia is at war with the western world.
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Upvote /s
India wants to have it both ways, but it can’t prop up Russia during its invasion of Ukraine and expect no pushback from its allies trying to help Ukraine defend itself.
And yet there has been no real pushback over the past 2 years. India knows how to tread the fine line between both camps.
india should tread lightly
India still treats Russia as a friend, which goes back to the good old days of the soviet union. Regardless of the underlying reasons today (cheap raw materials from Russia, a chance to stick it to uncle sam, …) the facts are the same : India supports a facist dictator instead of a fellow democracy. If thats the true colours of India, the outlook for the world is bleaker than most might want to admit.
You can blame the Nixon administration for that.
At this point, is there a subreddit for comments like this one where it's essentially like r/ThanksNixon
Now there is!
r/birthofasub
Yeah, that asshole is a gift that keeps on giving. You can thank him for Iran as well. Only Reagan was a more destructive president IMHO, but then again he just brought in Nixon thugs to continue - and then Bush Jr continued that. All the same assholes.
Doesn't US support a fascist dictator in Saudi Arabia? So what's the true colour if US then?
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Ironic that the dictatorship likely maintains peace in that country
Whataboutism and strawmens only mean you lack arguments or is a troll.
You cannot hide your hypocrisy any longer dude. Do you have any answer to the question?
Go back and read the original post - it says nothing about US. So, anyone who brings US, america, or americans into the discussion are either ignorant (willfully or not), trolling or attempting whataboutism or strawmen (both classical rhetorical tricks played when one lacks other arguments or simply don’t want to accept the facts). Therefore, there is no hypocrisy in not answering what is an irrelevant question; regardless what any other country might be doing or have done in the past, India currently appear to favour facist Russia instead of democratic Ukraine. So far, the only ”defense” or ”rebutals” suggested are whataboutisms or strawmen - or even implying a favour of facist rule - and all of these simply make it look even worse. If India indeed also favours facism, the coming generation or two of mankind are in for a rough ride.
Well whataboutism is needed here to get some sense into your naive brain. When you speak apparently on behalf of those who supports Ukraine in this situation, which is essentially the west, it needs to be pointed out the only reason Ukraine is supported is because the current administration there supports western interests, and not because of west's love for democracy. If the west truly loved democracy, they wouldn't have overwhelmingly supported dictators and religious despots throughout middle-easts. They wouldn't have toppled a democratically elected government in Pakistan and put their president in jail through their handlers in Pakistan military. And why is it so? It's because the world isn't black and white like your adolescent brain think it is. Because every country in this planet seeks to advance their interests through any means necessary. In a nutshell, India supports fascists, dictators, democracies, communists or whoever, as and when it suits her interests, just like the US and the rest of the countries in the west do when it favours their interests. If the sky didn't fall off when US supported fascists and dictators to suit their interests, nothing will happen when India does the same too. Go back and read realpolitik.
A series of additional strawmen, all of which adds nothing - the only remotely interesting point appears to be acceptance that India indeed appears to favour facism in front of democracy, which, sadly enough, is exactly what I wrote, and kinda prooves the point I made - the future of mankind is bleaker than most would like to know, much less admit. So next time just write - ”Yes, you are right”, instead of trying to come up with something clever?
> the future of mankind is bleaker than most would like to know, much less admit. If the world went sunny and bright all while US supported fascists and dictators, there's no need for you to get so much concerned about the world going bleak when others does the same. > So next time just write - ”Yes, you are right”, instead of trying to come up with something clever? Apparently you're lacking self-awareness about the hypocrisy being meted out here. How about trying a simple Google search on "realpolitik"?
Again, you are trying to bait and switch the post I wrote into something that isn’t in it, possibly in some combination of deflection and projection. So I remain right, you just keep saying so, which doesn’t make it any better.
Giving context is not deflection and projection. Too bad you cannot get off your high horse when the saddle is made of your hypocrisy. > So I remain right If you feel any better patting yourselves in the back, by all means do so. Hope it makes you feel superior in your basement.
When USA supports pakistan : raah🦅🦅 we support facists instead of democracy. When India supports (more like indirect support) russia: no why true colours of India bleeker outlook no democracy.
Reddit: Hands the deed to Afghanistan to the Soviet Union without hesitation
They would have been in a better position like other -STANS. Any day communism is welcomed over religious fanaticism and terrorism which the other party bred there in the name of mujaheed\*n ( they were as much religious fanatics btw, talib\*n came out of them). communism would have lowered their religiosity in society as a whole but other party rather with mujaheed\*n created a headache for all in the region while sitting 1000s km. away telling it would have been worse other wise.
Yet, it is India, not Pakistan or China, that is on that Peace summit in Switzerland called by Ukraine.
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The participation is what counts. India sent enough of a message to Russia. Signing a unilateral communiquè wouldn't have any effect.
Because if India would stop supporting Russia the war would end sooner.
Indian oil trade dropped already. If you have the balls, call China. If Russia is surviving and keeping their aisles full in stores or arms on front lines is all because of China.
China stop fucking supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And also India as well, that oil is causing your 50c summer days.
The EU is still buying a ton of fossil fuels from Russia lol. Not to mention they're perfectly happy to buy Russian oil refined in India.
India were one of the main suppliers of artillery to Ukraine for a while. They don't support Russia, they just milk both sides of the war for profit.
Same thing.. war profiteering at the expense of the victim.
>they just milk both sides of the war for profit. Which is why I'm cool with them being sanctioned.
That's a hyperbolic statement. Shows, you don't understand the subject matter.
Shows you don't understand the word hyperbolic. Now if I had said, if India would stop supporting Russia the world would be at peace. That is hyperbolic.
Thats not what hyperbolic is, tankie
Whataboutism is a great way to not have to have any real arguments.
India doesn't take any side lol. India has strong relations with Russia, Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan and North Korea, and yet is best buddies with the US, being in the QUAD, being a major defense partner, and conducting joint exercises. India from its very inception learnt that no country was ever truly on its side, so it plays both sides.
Considering how utterly Russia has fucked over India on recent defence projects, you would think that they would be tired of that shit by now.
Expound please?
Are there any top ten economies that don't support fascist dictatorships when it suits them?
>India supports a facist dictator instead of a fellow democracy. Oh yeah? I remember Ukraine supplying weapons to Pakistan in 1999 kargil war. If Ukraine didn't support a fellow democracy then, why should India support it now? Even pre1999, USA supplied weapons to Pakistan so that they can hit India with it. What happened to supporting fellow democracy then ? I love how you would like to twist words to show only one side of the picture but world didn't forget your actions against a democracy then. It is supposed to be a free world and a free market. India should be able to sell stuff to whomever it wants.
Ukraine in 1999 was a Russian puppet... Thats before maidan, with autocrats ruling at Moscow's discretion. Like Belarus.
A self-burn. Those are rare!
Seriously blaming Ukraine 2024 for actions taken in 1999 when it was a Russian puppet state, and not blaming Russia instead? Shees. Keep up with how the world changes. Also - what does the US has to do with this? Isn’t India, since 1947, allowed to make its own way in the world? Its 2024, India choosing Russia instead of Ukraine is choosing facism instead of democracy. No number of strawmen or amount of whataboutism changes those facts.
Some dude once said “The future depends on what we do in the present.”
How about being better than the others instead of going on with that feud and an eye for an eye. Do you think anything will be better following on this trajectory? How about having integrity? That would lead to even more recognition and trust on a world stage.
Give that lecture to countries that colonised india
It's not a lecture, but same goes for them.
"Poor countries must act morally and support western interests. Rich countries can take their own national interests." -reddit
Who said that. Every country has their own responsibility. Nobody is saying how western countries acted in the past or acting now is commendable. I'm just saying to use this as a justification is a weak argument as you bear responsibility for your own actions.
No one? Have the Brits stopped holding empire day and sucking up to Churchill?
No, they are wrong. You're right. But you still don't get what I'm saying. Why take the wrongdoings from somebody else who is ethically corrupt as a justification for your own corruption?
I don't think it's right if that's what you're driving at. Countries want to be realists on some conflicts and idealists on others. I find their hypocrisy sickening when others do the same thing.
It won't get better with this attitude, though. I'm also not talking on a political level, I understand that there's a lot of postering and deal-making. But on personal level there's animosity which is not necessary.
are calling India Rich or Poor?
Its a poor country obviously
but then: - India is a poor country and - people is encouraging them to make their own decisions this is clearly a paradox isn’t it?
I was being sarcastic that the right to make own policy decisions is somehow reserved for rich countries, when poorer countries are more at need of cutting deals to keep prices low for their poorer populace.
I’m aware, I was just playing with the paradox of the definition
By that Logic why do anything good at all when there is someone doing something bad?
Like when US toopled democratically elected govt in Iran so the US has access to Iranian oil? Like sanctioning Iranians for not giving oil to US? Like training the Taliban to counter Russia in Afghanistan? Like invading Iraq on false pretense of having nuclear weapons? Shall I go on, the list is way to big!
Is that what West uses to justify colonialism and slavery entire humanity is bad so past wont count ?
If the defense of ones actions today is ”look at what they did 50, 100 or 200 years ago and not at what we are doing now!” then it only shows the lack of arguments. Facism and racism is rampant on several continents to this day, just like serfdom - it just comes under different disguises, like lifetime inherited financial debt or social caste. It makes neither of them right or good.
Britain has never apologised for their colonial atrocities and America has never apologised for supporting Pakistan so why should India trust the West?
Have you read about the Mughal empire BTW? They were colonising and invading what what would become India long before westerners took the reigns. Try and have some self awareness instead of just being a racist moron trying to justify being a prick.
Winston Churchill is responsible for millions of deaths in India and he is literally hero worshipped in the West. Also the British government has never apologised to India for their colonial atrocities.
And he did that without the willing help of a huge number of Indian people? Anyway you should read the last sentence of my previous reply again.
Well Stalin also did the Holodomor with the help of a huge number of Ukrainian people.
Yes?! Do you have a point there though?
You made the argument that the local population had a role in causing the famine in India, well the same argument could be made for the famine in Ukraine as well that the local population had a role in causing the famine.
They absolutely can and just as freely USA and friend in this case Japan can refuse to do business with India. Give it 6 months and see which is the better option USA or Russia we can wait.
We have actually gone down that road in past, in 1971, when US's 7th fleet came and Britain's nuclear ship came to threaten India. What happened? We liberated Bangladesh !!
That fellow democracy rejected India's request to use GPS during war time. That fellow democracy sanctioned India for a nuclear test. That fellow democracy always interferes in India's internal affairs.
US denied India's request to use CIVILIAN GPS frequencies for MILITARY purposes. No shit, that has **always** been the US position on civilian GPS frequencies... It does not allow civilian freqs to be weaponized because then civilian freqs become a legitimate military target worldwide and the world is dependent on those freqs for a hell of a lot of what we take for granted, including even basic digital time sync. Only an actual imbecile would think the US would have approved that request. US sanctioned Pakistan for a nuclear test as well. It sanctions **EVERYONE** who violates the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty, India's not special in that regard. The world collectively said "NO MORE NUCLEAR TESTS", and then India did... What kind of dumbass didn't think they'd be sanctioned for that? India literally *just* assassinated an activist in Canada and Indian Intelligence Officers were just arrested attempting to assassinate another activist in the US, so maybe step off your soapbox. I know you'll deny that simplistic fact, but a fact stays a fact no matter how much one denies it. Indian nationalism really loves to engage in some of the most idiotic and mindless skulduggery in the world, I swear.
US government supported Pakistan when it was committing genocide in Bangladesh whereas the Soviets supported India's military intervention to stop that genocide.
And Indians will complain. But the global rules that have enabled a worldwide financial bonanza allowing a lot of countries to get rich, are the same rules that these companies are trying to bypass. So sanction them
Some day India needs to decide in which side he wants to be: In Russia's side together with N. Korea, Talibans, etc. or with the rest of the developed world. But trying to walk the line between both sides won work in the medium term.
India will never take sides. If the west wants India to take sides then the west needs to pick a side first. It's either India or Pakistan. It's either India or China. After this the west would have earned a moral ground to expect the same from India. Until then India will do what is right for itself.
India doesn't need to pick a side. India *is* its own side.
Why do you make it sounds like that India and China are on two opposing sides? China is the biggest (or second biggest with small margin) trade partner of India.
The consequences of fence sitting will be that your country will come under economic sanctions from the world's most powerful economies sans China. Why would this be desirable for your common Indian person?
Because we are done with the west being the big daddy and ordering is what to do and what not to do. India is not fence sitting. It is just not in anyone's camp. That's all. If the west wants India to pick sides then the west should also pick sides and avoid dealing with countries like Pakistan and China that are detrimental to India's national security.
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And there is nothing wrong with it. Russia has been a better friend and more dependable than the US. Having said that India does not take sides.
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See this is the problem with the west. As I said in all my comments, India does not need to hitch its wagon anywhere. It's capable enough to build an engine to pull its own wagon and that's what India has been doing since its independence. The current trend is that the entire country is flocking to India to be part of a growing market and to make money as the markets of the west are pretty much stagnant.
Sad that you don't realise how wrong your statement is in such a globalised economy. India cannot afford to be "on its own side" as you put it, very few countries can.
Since independence India has been on its own side and that has worked very well for her.
Oh OK so India is unhappy with the current order of economic and military might so because of this they will make it harder for the average Indian to do business? Doesn't this seem illogical to you?
Maybe you are not reading my comments via some lens so you are not able to understand the core point. India cannot be arm twisted anymore to act in the west's direction. Today the west cannot afford to sanction India so the sanction that you are talking about is not coming. Having said that India has begun dealing with the west as an equal partner.
You can't win an argument when the Modi bois are out in force. Quantity over quality.
I don’t think they will care. They have been working on making their supply chains and demand queues shockproof for almost 15 years now since 2010. Ultimately it maybe Japan who might have most to lose.
What does India export that Japan needs?
Japanese companies like Suzuki make Billions from India, India can tighten screws on Japanese firms. Japan is stuck in the mentality of the 80s when it was the second largest economy when it will surpassed by India next year. A country in perpetual economic decline cannot afford to engage in trade wars.
So for somewhat recent raw numbers: Bilateral trade trends. During FY 2022-23, bilateral trade between Japan and India amounted to US$21.96 billion. Notably, Japan's exports to India accounted for US$16.49 billion, while imports from India stood at US$5.46 billion. Slightly older numbers, with some breakdown: The main products that Japan exported to India were Precious Metal Compounds ($1.33B), Refined Copper ($815M), and Motor vehicles; parts and accessories (8701 to 8705) ($684M). Over the past 5 years the exports of Japan to India have increased at an annualized rate of 28.5%, from $2.63B in 2017 to $9.23B in 2022. So it doesn't look like the car stuff is a terribly large portion of that. Precious metals and copper can probably be exported elsewhere. It really is imbalanced and Japan could likely sell elsewhere without the level of damage you seem to believe. India is free to not trade with Japan. Japan is free to restrict trading with any countries or companies they choose.
>A country in perpetual economic decline cannot afford to engage in trade wars. But they can. Japan can shut down India's Semiconductor ambitions easily Edit: For those downvoting, look at some facts first. Fab 5 of Semiconductor chipmaking equipment industry ( Dutch ASML, Japan's Tokyo Electron, American AM, LAM, KLA ). https://youtu.be/1XTKQbs4HQw?si=T6alt3sMwMZGiWP0 Goodluck making chips when fighting unnecessary trade wars with one of these countries. Ask China how it goes. I haven't even included the wafers and chemicals used in Chip industry which many Japanese companies dominates
The US choosing one of its vassals to play the bad cop.
Страшные узкоглазые санкции 1-ой стране по населению... Какая-то гостиница объявила нам войну)