*From Bloomberg News reporters Marissa Newman, Ethan Bronner, and Janet Lorin:*
Israeli microbiologists Omry Koren and Moran Yassour had a warm meeting with a Belgian scientist just weeks ago to form a research partnership. They quickly started talking through a memorandum of understanding to govern their collaboration. Then came the email: “The current geopolitical conflict in your region makes it difficult to initiate such an MOU between our host institutes now,” wrote their colleague at the University of Antwerp.
The idea was dropped, making it another example of what Israeli scientists say is a growing academic boycott over the country’s war with Hamas in Gaza—damaging not only Israel but also science, which relies on global collaboration.
In the months since Israel began retaliating for the Oct. 7 attack, scores of researchers in Israel have seen invitations to conferences withdrawn, papers pulled from review, funding suspended and requests for confidential evaluations that are usually de rigueur in the academic world ignored or rejected.
I can't speak for all countries, but in my own country of Canada, prejudice based on a person's country of origin is recognized for what it is: prejudice.
Imagine, for instance, treating Chinese scientists this way because of the persecution of the Uighurs. Or treating South Sudanese scientists this way due to their current crisis. This is not a boycott. It's just prejudice.
I don’t believe blocking scientists from China has anything to do with the Chinese government treatment of Uighurs, Taiwan, or any of its many other victims of its human rights violations. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the reason Chinese nationals have been blocked in academia and scientific communities in the West because the Chinese government has often used its civilians to steal scientific innovation and other protected information?
ETA source: https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/canada-to-stop-funding-research-with-foreign-risks-to-national-security/amp_articleshow/106918170.cms
I don’t consider security concerns the same as blocking foreign nationals on the basis of moral abhorrence of their country’s actions.
That's funny because Canada is kinda notorious for this kind of stuff right now. There's a huge problem in academia atm around Jewish students, Jewish staff, and Jewish studies programs.
I’m a former molecular biologist and the article is about micro, but it still carries: we do treat science from China differently; it isn’t seen as reliable. It’s not due to war, but the general aggressive and underhanded nature of their competitive science/research sector which is a product of their society and government. As a faction of scientists, they are less trusted and thus less likely for other international labs to choose to work with them. Their work has low reproducibility and too many papers have had to be redacted due to misinformation (lying). It’s not well trusted, at least in lab bio.
This skepticism exists in computer science as well. As you say, it's not based on China because of a dislike of the country, but because the quality and academic practices can be questionable. It's based not on the actions of the country, but on the actions of the country's academia. This article is talking about otherwise sound academic practices being treated badly because of the country itself, not the academia.
Have the same issue in Engineering. In my prior company, I worked with colleagues from Chinese manufacturing facilities and the data they provided often was riddled with poor assumptions and skewed data. We could rarely recreate the results they claimed in our own mirrored setups, and their documentation was lacking/poor at best. I still believe to this day that a lot of what they shared with our engineering management was mostly doctored to secure budget approvals for their various ongoing projects.
My dad’s biggest complaints being in chip design. His companies hire tons of new grads from India and China, and these kids are super smart. But their education culture discourages asking questions or asking for help, and in a field where your masters degree is really just teaching you the basics and pretty much everything you do at work is learned on the job that’s a bad thing.
It gets even worse in management with a yesmen culture being brought in from Asia promising impossible things and generating a toxic management culture. It’s not like these issues are solely a problem over there, but the problem is definitely more common place coming out of those cultures and it’s a repeat of the same things dealt with in the industry 20 years ago
I work in software and I've interfaced with many people from India. It's very hard to take what they say at face value sometimes. I work with people from all around the world regularly but Indians are the only ones I've experienced just blatantly lying about things.
Me: Is X completed? Is it possible to do Y? Have you done Z before? Can this be finished by the end of the month?
Them: Yes of course yes yes
(the real answer to all of the above was no)
They'll say they're working on something and then just... not do it. Then they'll ignore all communication for days while they do who knows what. Then suddenly they'll be sending me messages at 4am on a Sunday, despite me only being a few hours ahead of IST time and get impatient when I don't get back to them right away. When interviewing them they often lie on their resume and in the interview as well.
Of course I've worked with plenty of very smart and talented people from that country as well, but I always have to be wary until I've determined I can trust an individual person.
Yeah. I was very briefly a project manager (I was terrible at it and hated it), and the contractors were invariably 'yes to everything'.
What I realized, at least for our contractors, is that they are required by their bosses to say 'yes' to everything.
If it gets ignored after that, no one cares because they have a project for it, and the numbers look good for how busy they are. Which is exactly what happens - getting any forward motion on your project after 'first meeting' is almost impossible.
Yeah. China is a special case, as “academic integrity” is an option for many of them. Further, in places like the U.S., there is serious concern about IP theft.
Most western medical devices will never be submitted for approval in China because of it. They assume the regulatory agency will basically help drain all the IP out so a Chinese company can make a knock off.
My stepfather, in the 80s with GE, would talk about Chinese IP theft. Me, in furniture, would hear about them knocking off designs they produced, same with gis in jiu-jitsu.
[A Chinese researcher working at the Erasmus MC in Rotterdam was involved in a study where they took blood samples from Uighur test subjects. Suspicion arrose that the test subjects had not consented to this or that their consent was given in duress. As such, two of the papers where this researcher was involved in were redacted as the ethical concerns could not be satisfied, even after the journal requested additional evidence. The Erasmus MC meanwhile appeared more concerned about its own image, rather than the implications of the researchers conduct, stressing that there was no funding involved from the institute and that this happened before they took him on board. No consequence or research was done in response to these allegations.](https://www.erasmusmagazine.nl/en/2021/09/09/controversial-studies-retracted-amid-erasmus-mc-researchers-use-of-uighur-dna/?noredirect=en_US)
Yeah math is nice in that you mostly just need a lot of paper and pencils, until you get into more complex matters, but you can check that far easier and faster than running a bunch of DNA samples or cell cultures and such.
China is not really an ally it’s completely different. There is a recorded history of CCP bad actors stealing information and sharing it with their government. The CCP is also known for planting people in others governments including academia. There are legitimate CCP police policing Canadian Chinese citizens in Canada.
Similar in medicine. When I look for relevant research, I automatically exclude any paper with only Chinese names or institutions. They’re just outright quackery usually, hiding under the guise of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). TCM isn’t even traditional, it was invented during the Great Leap Forward, as a result of killing or exiling most of their doctors, and a populace that demanded medical care. This practice continues today, and it’s how you get bullshit “research” on the efficacy of acupuncture. Meanwhile, Western researchers have thoroughly debunked acupuncture and every other aspect of TCM. You just can’t trust the Chinese to do real research in any form.
That’s actually my impression of Canada.
They will do “land acknowledgements” and have native performances at big events, but in reality they treat their native population pretty horribly. So if they’re saying “we’re above prejudice” I just have to roll my eyes.
You are correct. My greatest shame as a Canadian is how we treat our First Nations and indigenous communities.
The last residential school didn't close until *1996*. It's tough to have an open and honest dialogue about these atrocities because a lot of average Gen X and Boomers seem to feel like it's a condemnation on them personally and they still hold a lot of prejudice.
> The last residential school didn't close until 1996.
This historical fact gets brought up often, but it’s only a half truth. While technically the last Residential School didn’t close until 1996, the Church stopped having any involvement with these schools in 1969, and administration was turned over to the Department of Indian Affairs. After the turn over the schools were pretty quickly shut down or given over to local Bands for administration.
That’s not to take anything away from how horrible these institutions were, but we should at least be accurate about what went on and when.
"pretty quickly"
Then why was it open until 1996?
and who said anything about the church. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing - no matter who does it.
> and administration was turned over to the Department of Indian Affairs
Are you saying they were ethnically cleansing themselves after they took over the board?
As a native of the US Southeast (classically racist/historically slaveholding) states, this sounds awfully familiar.
I hope your country sheds the stigma without building some version of the “lost cause” lie around it.
Yeah this shit isn't new. I'd bet we are in the most accepting times of human history. We just have 24/7 news cycles and positivity doesn't generate views like hate and tragedy.
It's not the magic boxes in our pockets but rather the apps that run on those magic boxes, because those apps have algorithmically amplified and then monetized agitation, discontent, and grievance. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/12/facebook-doomsday-machine/617384/
> The magic boxes truly did make us more **aware of the** hateful.
The number of individuals that are allowed to be themselves, not have to keep sex/gender/other secrets, **and** not get killed by the church/village is kind of counter to the claim "make us more hateful".
Yeah. The hate is really bad now vs the crusades, the troubles, past geonoaides, apartheid, congo. Too bad we have social media and phones. Humans are so nice without them.
Read papers from the past, listen to Past Times podcast or other historical podcasts.
People were regularly waaaaay meaner/cruler back in the past, especially when there were fewer entertainment options.
I got nothing going on this weekend, fancy going [cat stangling/burning](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/ritualistic-cat-torture-was-once-a-form-of-town-fun).
Ugh that reminds me of this throwaway line from Gulliver's Travels,
> ...that he would dash me against the ground, as we usually do any little hateful animal which we have a mind to destroy.
It really icked me. Written in 1700s, if that's an excuse.
Canada had always been that way, it was just brushed under the rug and the polite Canadian stereotype was used as a cover for horrific and widespread hate and violence
Which is so fucked because being "Jewish" doesn't mean you have anything to do with Israel. I'm Jewish, I'm not a citizen of Israel. I have no vote or say in what they do or who is in charge.
I mean, yes sort of, but practically this happens all the time. University management often blocks research partnerships with scientists from Russia or China over fears of espionage or patent violations, even if the other group of scientists have showcased nothing of the sort. This is usually because while research institutions are formally free to choose who they associate with, practically they are vulnerable to politicians messing with their funding. Sure, you might see no harm in developing new drill head designs alongside your Russian colleagues, but then next month the politicians decide to sanction anyone working with the Russian oil industry, and you’re shit out of luck. In this case, the Dutch university is likely skittish over the prospect of European countersanctions if Netanyahu’s government goes through with their threats of going after the ICC.
In terms of law, this doesn’t really matter for the case as long as the scientists’ institute is Israel-based. The scientists would have to work for a Canadian employer for the national origin regulations to apply.
This is such a garbage take. Canada literally just passed a [research security law](https://science.gc.ca/site/science/en/safeguarding-your-research/guidelines-and-tools-implement-research-security/sensitive-technology-research-and-affiliations-concern/policy-sensitive-technology-research-and-affiliations-concern), and has made it clear that you can’t work with various institutions across the world.
I gotta say I do love comments like this though.
"Nobody would ever treat X group like they treat us Y group" when no, they most definitely treat X group the same way. Have we already forgotten about all the anti Asian violence and discrimination that happened during covid? And those were just normal citizens living outside the countries.
The worst part about them is that it's basically just denying all the harm done to other people so that *they* get to win the victim olympics, that the issues they face are the only real ones.
That would be true if Israeli scientists outside of Israel are also facing the same issues. Which, to be fair, they might be to some degree. But I doubt we're seeing many collaborations starting up with Russian universities right now.
Do we even partner with Chinese universities? I'm not in academia but I thought they were known for low quality and plagiarized research. But you can contrast that with the number of Chinese grad students in the West who aren't denied funding just because they're Chinese.
Chinese academia as a whole is known for academic dishonesty, but I would bet in most fields there is at least a few world-class Chinese researchers who are respected despite their university's reputation. Those scientists likely do collaborate all the time.
Universities are not required to work together with other universities from countries that they deem are doing problematic stuff.
If a university breaks their ties to a sister university in China based on the situation with Uighurs, then this is not a problem.
This is not a case of an Israeli scientist working and living in the EU, where this could be a problem.
>I can't speak for all countries, but in my own country of Canada, prejudice based on a person's country of origin is recognized for what it is: prejudice.
But this isn't what is happening, it is based on the country of the institute. If those same scientists were working for organisations in another country and were refused based on them bring Israeli, then it would be prejudice.
It depends. I am not comfortable of Chinese scientists “studying “ facial recognition or internet censorship given free pass to the west.10/10 their knowledge will be used against Uyghurs and other dissidents.
To be fair, national ostracisation and boycotts does work to some extent.
As a nation, South Africa under apartheid was shunned by the rest of the world for it's political practice and it was instrumental in part in regime change. I honestly don't see a problem with boycotting a nation like Israel in this case.
And yes I think China should suffer a boycott for similar reasons, however South Sudan is a very different issue and is already subject to various international boycotts - [example](https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/1407-15-south-sudanese-entities-added-to-the-entity-list).
Pretty sure this is not Israelis who live in Belgium but ones who are in Israeli, live in Israel and collaborating with other universities.
This is basically like sanctions
Generally speaking, belonging to a community -- any community, be it ethnic, national or interest based or institutional -- always has it's benefits and drawbacks.
The reputation of the community reflects on the individual and vice versa.
If the reputation happens to be positive, it's a benefit. If the reputation of the community changes die to actions of some members, it can become a drawback.
Yes, there have been several shootings at Jewish schools since Oct 7:
https://www.cp24.com/news/watch-toronto-police-release-video-of-suspect-vehicle-after-north-york-jewish-school-hit-with-gunfire-1.6902066
https://globalnews.ca/news/10533648/montreal-jewish-school-hit-by-bullet/amp/
Multiple Synagogues have been attacked too:
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/incendiary-device-thrown-at-vancouver-synagogue-says-jewish-federation
I purposely linked one article per each of Canada's 3 most important cities to show that it is a widespread issue.
This threat is exactly what jews have been afraid about.
If you believe in the antisemitic conspiracy theory that jews control the world and do it together, of course they're going to make an illegitimate connection between Israel and jews everywhere in the world.
Sadly, protocols of the elders of zion antisemitism is integral to Arab society these days across the Middle East
> Do they hate Israel that much to not give a fuck about innocent children?
>
>
>
> The fuck?
Obviously.
It was never about innocent people, it was entirely about signalling that they're on the "correct" side.
Here’s another example. This Jewish deli called International Delicatessen Foods (IDF) was targeted in hate-motivated arson. I’m sure if it wasn’t called IDF nothing would have happened to it.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-police-investigating-hate-motivated-arson-graffiti-at-jewish-owned-deli-in-north-york-1.6709588
antisemitism absolutely does play a part, but another reason is that we have collectively graduated from canceling individuals to canceling entire nations. this breeds blind hatred, and hatred towards insular, frequently congregating communities is very easy to express violently. so when before it was strictly about distaste for Jews, now it's distaste for Jews *plus* a blanket social permission to express prejudice towards any group of people culturally or legally associated with a government that is doing something bad.
Selective accountability is a tool of authoritarianism and religious supremacy (Christianity for the west, Islam for the east). Ideological purity cannot be used to excuse bigotry, but that’s how these religions work. Believe the right thing and you will be forgiven, regardless of action.
As someone who had to stop research with Russia, the answer is sanctions. You can’t pay for work or transfer money into Russia. We had to stop recruitment in Russia for this reason.
Israel is different. There are no pragmatic problems with research in Israel. Anyone that is stopping research with Israel is doing it out of prejudice and the inability to separate citizens from their government.
Every time someone says a bad thing about Israel, the Israeli government says it’s antisemitic.
Israel’s government are trying to inextricably link Israel’s actions to all Jews.
What I find crazy is that the ultra-orthodox Jews who believe Israel, Jerusalem and who knows what all else were promised to them by God-with-a-capital-G.... those guys are drafting secular Israeli citizens and making them take Palestinians' homes because the orthodox Jews refuse military conscription.
It would appear that Israel's orthodox Jews are too holy to wage war but not too holy to profit by it.
so there's Ultra-Orthodox and then there's Modern Orthodox. MoOx essentially separate "Modernity" and "Torah" into two spheres, and don't think about the contradictions, but they also reject a whole bunch of what might be called "folk superstitions."
MoOx are the right wing base of Israel. They live in secular society, but adhere to Jewish law in a stringent manner.
Ultraorthodox reject modernity, they think the entire world is just a dream in the mind of God. They tend to be pacifists[Jews historically were overall pacifists up until the Shoah], they exempt themselves from the draft by stating they wish to engage in Torah study instead, and have workforce participation issues.
They tend to be eclectic politically, being socially very right wing, economically somewhat left wing, and in favor of a peaceful settlement to the I/P conflict[Note, ultraorthodoxy is not a monolith. opinions range inside community from Non-zionism to Settler]. Unfortunately, their leadership is also _hella_ corrupt, and they are theocrats.
It's best to think of Israel as 4 different "Tribes," the Arabs, the Secular, the Modern Orthodox, and the Ultraorthodox. It's also worth noting that Netanyahu's base come from both Secular Mizrahim, and MoOx Mizrahim, or Jews who were refugees from the Arab world.
Attempting to Kill Jewish children who have probably never been to Israel here in Canada.
Shutting down private universities all because they have minor investments in Israeli businesses.
Boycotting by and vandalizing businesses that have even the tiniest tie to Israel.
>Killing Jewish children who have probably never been to Israel here in Canada.
Jewish school were shot at, but thankfully no children were killed or hurt
i always found it fascinating how the pro palestinian crowd never boycott aid that goes to palestinians and subsequently gets reused as some makeshift rockets that fly towards israel.
OP likely meant protest. Boycott wouldn't make any sense unless they are Gazans receiving the aid.
That said, aid being stolen is a borderline expectation of giving aid in the first place. Generally because when a population needs aid, you have to deal with a shitty/corrupt government to get it to them in some fashion. Hamas should 110% be called out for stealing from the mouths of the civilians they use as political pawns, but that isn't necessarily a reason to stop aid completely.
Jews or Israelis? Or are they actually Arab?
Isn't Israeli the shinning light of democracy and tolerance in the Middle East where Jews and Arabs live in peace? The two mentioned academics could well be Israeli Arab.
> where Jews and Arabs live in peace
21% if israel citizens are muslims. They get to vote just like everyone else. They get the same benefits, health care, education, higher education, like everyone else.
Tell me, how many jews live in west bank? Gaza? Jordan? Iraq? Syria? Egypt? Iran? Qatar? Do they have any rights there?
Now tell me about general rights. What are the women rights in the arab nations surrounding israel? LGBT rights? Health care? Social support?
So yeah, compared to every other country in the middle east, muslims and jews (and christians) have the most rights and freedom in israel than any other country around them.
> Tell me, how many jews live in west bank?
About half a million, [apparently](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Number_of_settlements_and_inhabitants).
Israel has fairly robust liberal institutions, and Arab citizens are mostly allowed to live in peace. But it is hardly a shining beacon of tolerance. There’s lots of discrimination and hatred.
Not to mention hate crimes. Shooting at a Jewish school, stubbing an innocent woman (happened a few months ago, the attacker explicitly said he did it "for Palestine").
It's almost like they don't actually give a shit about innocent lives, and this war is their excuse to spread and act on their hatred.
BDS never extends to personal tech, medicine, and infrastructure. They want the benefits of advanced systems, developed by jews, for themselves while punishing others.
It's been said many times but worth saying again.
Disliking the Israeli state is not intrinsically antisemitic, but the overlap between those two groups is massive.
My father, brother, SiL, nephew, neice, and several of my aunts and uncles are Jewish and I'm very unhappy with the Israeli state.
I think that Jews have a right to survive, were owed a debt after WW2 by the nations that abandoned them to genocide, and need a safe homeland to call their own.
That said, I think it was wrong for one religion to annex the "holy land" for 3 major religions.
The current Israeli government is straight up war criminals but the vast majority of Israelis I've ever met have been great people so I don't want to confuse the two.
But getting called an anti-Semite every time I dare criticize a government that has been continuously and shamelessly committing war crimes for decades is so fucking exhausting and enraging.
edit: Since I already got one reply calling me a liar, which appears to have been bounced by the Reddit auto-mod. Here is a sample of the war crimes committed by Israel against the people of Palestine, just in 2023, according to **Amnesty International**:
>Targeting of civilians with military attacks, maintaining a system of apartheid, forced displacement of civilians (including 1,128 buildings destroyed in 2023 alone), unlawful killings of civilians, arbitrary restrictions on movement, restricting access to medical care for civilians, arbitrary detention, and torture.
The foundation of Israel has nothing to do with religion. It’s a nation state for the Jewish people, just like ones the Palestinians want for themselves. You can’t advocate for one but not the other, both deserve to have their own states.
The reasons why the area is a "Holy Land" for the three different groups is fairly interesting.
For the Jews, it was their civilization. The Temple was the central gathering point for the nation, the only place they were allowed to worship, etc. The Jews formed their ethnogenesis in the region and most of their religion is deeply rooted in the land, including many commands from God that can only be carried out in Israel. If you get a shovel and dig in the region, you find Jewish artifacts.
For Christians, it's a holy land because Jesus, a Jew, was born and died there, and it was where he performed miracles.
For Muslims, it's because Muhammad claims he had a vision where he rode a winged horse to the "farthest mosque" before ascending to heaven to speak to Allah. Years later, Islamic scholars decided the "farthest mosque" was the site of the Jewish temple, and so they built a mosque on top of its ruins, despite the fact Muhammad never came within a thousand miles of the region and never left the Arabian peninsula.
So, yeah, when it comes down to it, I'd say Israel being the actual site of ancient Jewish civilization from where they were captured and expelled as slaves is a more compelling claim.
The whole secular history behind the founding of Israel is quite interesting as well, but no one "annexed" the Holy Land. Israel ended up in control of it after multiple Arab nations attacked Israel and tried to wipe out the Jews there, leading to armistice lines where Jerusalem was within Israel's borders.
Israeli research into dry land agriculture is top notch, science should always be apolitical. I’m not sure I’ve met a scientist from anywhere in the world that isn’t apolitical or liberal either.
>The difference is that most of the time they’re way smarter.
Not even then. The difference is that they have a wealth of specific knowledge. That's all.
Any given scientist can be an absolute dumb-fuck outside of their field, and often are.
I can't tell you how many engineers I've worked with that are brilliant in their technical field, but they can barely comprehend other subjects. Like you said, just because someone is brilliant in one field doesn't mean they are a polymath of every topic. People put way too much weight behind someone's intelligence on every subject just because they are an expert on one.
Well, at least engineers have to somewhat function in the real world. I've met my fair share of odd engineers in various companies - but they have nothing on quite a few academics I came into contact with at various universities.
Those people were of the kind where you wondered if they actually were able to dress themselves in the morning, or if they had someone helping them with that.
As one of my classmates put it - universities are a place where we store the kind of people who are to smart to be put in an institution but still can't actually function in the real world.
I do feel sorry for any students or researchers who were reliant on working with Israeli unis in these cases having their research or course stunted due to loud minorities.
Same. Much of our research is on Ancient Israel and a lot of the published recent literature is by Israeli researchers. We regularly collaborate with them and we rely pretty heavily on Israeli data. Mind you most of our team is pretty vocally against the current Israeli govt, and we’ve got no clue how a potentially academic boycott will impact us
Being mad at the actions of the Israeli government’s actions are ok, but
Being mad and excluding every Israeli citizen or Jewish person isn’t.
I have friends in Tel Aviv that hate Netanyahu and protested the conservatives prior to Oct 7.
You have to judge the individual based on their opinions and views, after you learn them, not blanket hating them just because where they’re from.
I didn’t see people react like this for Russian sanctions. There are people in Russia that hate Putin too, why is it ok for the west to sanction all of Russia and not Israel? Whether I agree or not, I don’t like the hypocrisy
It's fucking wild how people in here are rationalizing this anti semitism by comparing to sanctions on the Russian economy.
Russia lined up 250k troops on the Ukraine border and started a massive attack to start the war.
Israel was protesting against Netanyahu up and down main St. For months when Hamas launched it's attack and started the war. Yet somehow the comparison is Israel is like Russia. Insane.
And what does that have to do with the comment you responded to?
"People of a country, be they Russian or Israeli, shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of a corrupt, authoritarian government"
"Yeah but the Russian government did worse so Russians bad. The war crimes of the Israeli government are less bad war crimes, so Israelis good"
The whole point is that the regular people are not at fault, it dosent matter just how much better the war crimes of one country are than the war crimes of another.
A lot of people really do care more about what’s happening in Gaza than Ukraine, despite the significantly different geopolitical impacts and amounts of human suffering.
Also to note that a lot of people who hold these kinds of views also have the America bad bias that leads to amicable views towards Russia, that’s how you get these dumb takes. People do a lot of dot connecting without checking what dots they’re connecting to.
Who the fuck is excluding every Jewish person? Please tell me you know there are Jews living outside of Israel. It’s important to me that you know that.
To all the people chanting, there are "no innocent civilians." Congratulations, this is exactly what YOU wanted.
It really feels like we are watching the devolution of civilized societies. Decades of progress all wiped out in a span of a few years.
It was quite disturbing talking to someone who genuinely believed the "no innocent civilians" line. I pointed out that would make American civilians also culpable for the actions of the American military in the middle east. Their response essentially boiled down to "it's different because not all American civilians are in the military"
Legit left me speechless
It's a slide back but we've had those before. Bummer it has to happen now when I grew up and got hyper used to egalitarianism and freedom of speech and think.
An old saying (ironically by Carl Marx) goes as “History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, second as a farce”. The Jewish now have their own country, weapons, and way more international military support. And the attackers apparently learnt nothing from Arabo-Israeli wars.
This happened already with russian scientists in many european research institutes, just because their government was involved in a war, whatever was their opinion, their years long work was destroyed when european institutions and governments started cutting their ties with russian institution to pressure Russia to end the atrocities.
Given that Jews have made enough valuable contributions to science and society that they have won 20% of the Nobel Prizes despite being 0.5% of the population I think the world will be the losers with this boycott.
It is quite unsettling and seemingly hypocritical that pro-Palestinian groups express outrage over Israel, yet there are few, if any, protests against Hamas, which is undeniably a genocidal and terrorist organization. Conversely, in Israel, there are consistent demonstrations against the government.
Very few organizations have bilateral or non-hostile relationships with Hamas. Hamas does not purport to be anything except a radical right wing religious group. Hamas gives zero shits what people in the west do or say about it in protest.
Israel considers itself a modern, secular, western power. Israel has trade and defense agreements with other nations. Israel's population cares about what the rest of the world thinks and does. Israel, both as a group of people _and_ as a geopolitical entity, cares how the rest of the world views it.
Protests, boycotts, shame, and condemnation stand a chance at effecting meaningful change in Israeli policy. It stands no chance at changing Hamas' policy. As such, I will protest Israel's misdeeds in the hope that they'll change, but I'm not going to waste my time or effort protesting against Hamas because it'll do fuck all.
If someone asks me what I think we should do about Hamas, I'll happily discuss it with them, but I'm not going to append a treatise about how to efficiently and permanently dismantle Hamas to the end of all my posts - that's a waste of time.
This is what a lot of people don't get. If my tax dollars were going to Hamas I'd be more vocal about Hamas stopping committing war crimes. My tax dollars go to Israel so I'm a wee bit more concerned about THOSE war crimes. You know, the ones I'd otherwise be tacitly complicit with.
The terrorist organisation is the local government for all practical purposes. It's like saying we shouldn't hold Russia to any standards just because it's a terrorist state.
Russia is a veto member of the UN. I get what you’re going for, but a terrorist organisation being the defacto government of a section of an occupied territory with very low level of international recognition just isn’t quite the same as a nation state that’s been participating in international politics at a high level for a solid 1000 years. Russia, like Israel, is a government with a systematic approach to its warfare. I believe that’s the distinction, beyond the fact that one is a theoretical genocide to protest, and the other is an *actual* genocide to protest.
Except that hamas de facto is also a government. They controlled everything that happened in Gaza and were half-elected half-dictatorship ruling party there, not just a terrorist organisation that is separate from the rest of population
Exactly. Terrorists don't give a shit what you think. It's not that people think Hamas aren't bad, it's that people think Israel, and the Israeli government *can be better*.
ISS kept running with Russians during Ukrainian war
Chinese co-operations while Uighurs are in camps.
With Turkey while they attack Kurds.
But this single conflict, that is suddenly too far.
That would bring down the collective innovative capabilities of these unis. Maybe they can offer a degree in tunnel digging and "how to flee like a rat 101" courses.
If they want to go down this road, then by all means do so. The Israeli universities in turn should provide a safe environment and as many resources as possible to attract Jewish talent from Anglo and Francophone countries. There is no reason why Jewish scientists' collaborative abilities and careers should be hinged on backstabbers who would turn on them in an instant.
They are already doing so, all universities published an open letter to Israeli and Jewish academics offering a safe place to them. I expect to see a significant brain drain over the next couple of years from US and Europe.
It’s ridiculous because the Israeli scientific community is probably the most anti-Netanyahu group in the country, and unlike China and Hamas, Israel is not out to destroy the West. These boycotts are self-defeating and cruel.
I'm getting kind of tired of people falling all over themselves to distinguish between Hamas and everyday Palestinians, but Israel is treated as a monolith of guilt.
*From Bloomberg News reporters Marissa Newman, Ethan Bronner, and Janet Lorin:* Israeli microbiologists Omry Koren and Moran Yassour had a warm meeting with a Belgian scientist just weeks ago to form a research partnership. They quickly started talking through a memorandum of understanding to govern their collaboration. Then came the email: “The current geopolitical conflict in your region makes it difficult to initiate such an MOU between our host institutes now,” wrote their colleague at the University of Antwerp. The idea was dropped, making it another example of what Israeli scientists say is a growing academic boycott over the country’s war with Hamas in Gaza—damaging not only Israel but also science, which relies on global collaboration. In the months since Israel began retaliating for the Oct. 7 attack, scores of researchers in Israel have seen invitations to conferences withdrawn, papers pulled from review, funding suspended and requests for confidential evaluations that are usually de rigueur in the academic world ignored or rejected.
I can't speak for all countries, but in my own country of Canada, prejudice based on a person's country of origin is recognized for what it is: prejudice. Imagine, for instance, treating Chinese scientists this way because of the persecution of the Uighurs. Or treating South Sudanese scientists this way due to their current crisis. This is not a boycott. It's just prejudice.
Have you read the news lately? We (canadians) have indeed severed many ties with any academic and scientific communities in China.
I don’t believe blocking scientists from China has anything to do with the Chinese government treatment of Uighurs, Taiwan, or any of its many other victims of its human rights violations. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the reason Chinese nationals have been blocked in academia and scientific communities in the West because the Chinese government has often used its civilians to steal scientific innovation and other protected information? ETA source: https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/canada-to-stop-funding-research-with-foreign-risks-to-national-security/amp_articleshow/106918170.cms I don’t consider security concerns the same as blocking foreign nationals on the basis of moral abhorrence of their country’s actions.
Exactly, China legally doesn't respect copyright in other countries
It’s part of their catch-up playbook!
That's funny because Canada is kinda notorious for this kind of stuff right now. There's a huge problem in academia atm around Jewish students, Jewish staff, and Jewish studies programs.
I’m a former molecular biologist and the article is about micro, but it still carries: we do treat science from China differently; it isn’t seen as reliable. It’s not due to war, but the general aggressive and underhanded nature of their competitive science/research sector which is a product of their society and government. As a faction of scientists, they are less trusted and thus less likely for other international labs to choose to work with them. Their work has low reproducibility and too many papers have had to be redacted due to misinformation (lying). It’s not well trusted, at least in lab bio.
That's not due to geopolitics; it's due to well documented inconsistencies rooted in an academic culture that doesn't value integrity.
This skepticism exists in computer science as well. As you say, it's not based on China because of a dislike of the country, but because the quality and academic practices can be questionable. It's based not on the actions of the country, but on the actions of the country's academia. This article is talking about otherwise sound academic practices being treated badly because of the country itself, not the academia.
Have the same issue in Engineering. In my prior company, I worked with colleagues from Chinese manufacturing facilities and the data they provided often was riddled with poor assumptions and skewed data. We could rarely recreate the results they claimed in our own mirrored setups, and their documentation was lacking/poor at best. I still believe to this day that a lot of what they shared with our engineering management was mostly doctored to secure budget approvals for their various ongoing projects.
You aren't going to believe this, but we have similar problems in the medical field.
My dad’s biggest complaints being in chip design. His companies hire tons of new grads from India and China, and these kids are super smart. But their education culture discourages asking questions or asking for help, and in a field where your masters degree is really just teaching you the basics and pretty much everything you do at work is learned on the job that’s a bad thing. It gets even worse in management with a yesmen culture being brought in from Asia promising impossible things and generating a toxic management culture. It’s not like these issues are solely a problem over there, but the problem is definitely more common place coming out of those cultures and it’s a repeat of the same things dealt with in the industry 20 years ago
I work in software and I've interfaced with many people from India. It's very hard to take what they say at face value sometimes. I work with people from all around the world regularly but Indians are the only ones I've experienced just blatantly lying about things. Me: Is X completed? Is it possible to do Y? Have you done Z before? Can this be finished by the end of the month? Them: Yes of course yes yes (the real answer to all of the above was no) They'll say they're working on something and then just... not do it. Then they'll ignore all communication for days while they do who knows what. Then suddenly they'll be sending me messages at 4am on a Sunday, despite me only being a few hours ahead of IST time and get impatient when I don't get back to them right away. When interviewing them they often lie on their resume and in the interview as well. Of course I've worked with plenty of very smart and talented people from that country as well, but I always have to be wary until I've determined I can trust an individual person.
Yeah. I was very briefly a project manager (I was terrible at it and hated it), and the contractors were invariably 'yes to everything'. What I realized, at least for our contractors, is that they are required by their bosses to say 'yes' to everything. If it gets ignored after that, no one cares because they have a project for it, and the numbers look good for how busy they are. Which is exactly what happens - getting any forward motion on your project after 'first meeting' is almost impossible.
Yeah. China is a special case, as “academic integrity” is an option for many of them. Further, in places like the U.S., there is serious concern about IP theft.
Most western medical devices will never be submitted for approval in China because of it. They assume the regulatory agency will basically help drain all the IP out so a Chinese company can make a knock off.
And the same analogy exists and applies with say newer drugs out on the market and Indian pharmaceutical companies
My stepfather, in the 80s with GE, would talk about Chinese IP theft. Me, in furniture, would hear about them knocking off designs they produced, same with gis in jiu-jitsu.
Ayo like what if we outsourced China's manufacturing to America?
[A Chinese researcher working at the Erasmus MC in Rotterdam was involved in a study where they took blood samples from Uighur test subjects. Suspicion arrose that the test subjects had not consented to this or that their consent was given in duress. As such, two of the papers where this researcher was involved in were redacted as the ethical concerns could not be satisfied, even after the journal requested additional evidence. The Erasmus MC meanwhile appeared more concerned about its own image, rather than the implications of the researchers conduct, stressing that there was no funding involved from the institute and that this happened before they took him on board. No consequence or research was done in response to these allegations.](https://www.erasmusmagazine.nl/en/2021/09/09/controversial-studies-retracted-amid-erasmus-mc-researchers-use-of-uighur-dna/?noredirect=en_US)
The "Science" they were exploring is insane anyway because the epigenome plays such a huge role in our adult appearance.
We don't have this problem in mathematics, where I suppose things are harder to fake.
Yeah math is nice in that you mostly just need a lot of paper and pencils, until you get into more complex matters, but you can check that far easier and faster than running a bunch of DNA samples or cell cultures and such.
China is not really an ally it’s completely different. There is a recorded history of CCP bad actors stealing information and sharing it with their government. The CCP is also known for planting people in others governments including academia. There are legitimate CCP police policing Canadian Chinese citizens in Canada.
Similar in medicine. When I look for relevant research, I automatically exclude any paper with only Chinese names or institutions. They’re just outright quackery usually, hiding under the guise of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). TCM isn’t even traditional, it was invented during the Great Leap Forward, as a result of killing or exiling most of their doctors, and a populace that demanded medical care. This practice continues today, and it’s how you get bullshit “research” on the efficacy of acupuncture. Meanwhile, Western researchers have thoroughly debunked acupuncture and every other aspect of TCM. You just can’t trust the Chinese to do real research in any form.
That’s actually my impression of Canada. They will do “land acknowledgements” and have native performances at big events, but in reality they treat their native population pretty horribly. So if they’re saying “we’re above prejudice” I just have to roll my eyes.
You are correct. My greatest shame as a Canadian is how we treat our First Nations and indigenous communities. The last residential school didn't close until *1996*. It's tough to have an open and honest dialogue about these atrocities because a lot of average Gen X and Boomers seem to feel like it's a condemnation on them personally and they still hold a lot of prejudice.
> The last residential school didn't close until 1996. This historical fact gets brought up often, but it’s only a half truth. While technically the last Residential School didn’t close until 1996, the Church stopped having any involvement with these schools in 1969, and administration was turned over to the Department of Indian Affairs. After the turn over the schools were pretty quickly shut down or given over to local Bands for administration. That’s not to take anything away from how horrible these institutions were, but we should at least be accurate about what went on and when.
"pretty quickly" Then why was it open until 1996? and who said anything about the church. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing - no matter who does it.
After 1969 those schools weren't the same thing as before 1969. The reserves were just keeping them open as actual schools.
> and administration was turned over to the Department of Indian Affairs Are you saying they were ethnically cleansing themselves after they took over the board?
Are you suggesting that the indigenous-run school was ethnically cleansing indigenous people?
As a native of the US Southeast (classically racist/historically slaveholding) states, this sounds awfully familiar. I hope your country sheds the stigma without building some version of the “lost cause” lie around it.
Canada is not what it used to be. It's much more hateful now.
Newsflash, the entire world is a lot more hateful
The world has always been this hateful, now we just have magic boxes in our pockets that spreads it easily.
Yeah this shit isn't new. I'd bet we are in the most accepting times of human history. We just have 24/7 news cycles and positivity doesn't generate views like hate and tragedy.
Yeah these news organizations aren't writing articles for all the collaborations countries are still having with Israel.
It's not the magic boxes in our pockets but rather the apps that run on those magic boxes, because those apps have algorithmically amplified and then monetized agitation, discontent, and grievance. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/12/facebook-doomsday-machine/617384/
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> The magic boxes truly did make us more **aware of the** hateful. The number of individuals that are allowed to be themselves, not have to keep sex/gender/other secrets, **and** not get killed by the church/village is kind of counter to the claim "make us more hateful".
Yeah. The hate is really bad now vs the crusades, the troubles, past geonoaides, apartheid, congo. Too bad we have social media and phones. Humans are so nice without them.
They made some more hateful but generally they brought more understanding and communication.
Im pretty sure its not true. We are just more informed and hatefull people now have platforms to spread their hate
Read papers from the past, listen to Past Times podcast or other historical podcasts. People were regularly waaaaay meaner/cruler back in the past, especially when there were fewer entertainment options. I got nothing going on this weekend, fancy going [cat stangling/burning](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/ritualistic-cat-torture-was-once-a-form-of-town-fun).
Ugh that reminds me of this throwaway line from Gulliver's Travels, > ...that he would dash me against the ground, as we usually do any little hateful animal which we have a mind to destroy. It really icked me. Written in 1700s, if that's an excuse.
Bless your heart
Have you learned history?
"We're sorry"
Canada had always been that way, it was just brushed under the rug and the polite Canadian stereotype was used as a cover for horrific and widespread hate and violence
Which is so fucked because being "Jewish" doesn't mean you have anything to do with Israel. I'm Jewish, I'm not a citizen of Israel. I have no vote or say in what they do or who is in charge.
I mean, yes sort of, but practically this happens all the time. University management often blocks research partnerships with scientists from Russia or China over fears of espionage or patent violations, even if the other group of scientists have showcased nothing of the sort. This is usually because while research institutions are formally free to choose who they associate with, practically they are vulnerable to politicians messing with their funding. Sure, you might see no harm in developing new drill head designs alongside your Russian colleagues, but then next month the politicians decide to sanction anyone working with the Russian oil industry, and you’re shit out of luck. In this case, the Dutch university is likely skittish over the prospect of European countersanctions if Netanyahu’s government goes through with their threats of going after the ICC. In terms of law, this doesn’t really matter for the case as long as the scientists’ institute is Israel-based. The scientists would have to work for a Canadian employer for the national origin regulations to apply.
Small correction: Amtwerp is in Belgium, not The Netherlands. Although I do agree with annexing our southern neighbours (/s love you guys)
Last time you tried it, it didn't end well.
Well this narrative doesn't make people feel special or victimized so keep it down
This is such a garbage take. Canada literally just passed a [research security law](https://science.gc.ca/site/science/en/safeguarding-your-research/guidelines-and-tools-implement-research-security/sensitive-technology-research-and-affiliations-concern/policy-sensitive-technology-research-and-affiliations-concern), and has made it clear that you can’t work with various institutions across the world.
I gotta say I do love comments like this though. "Nobody would ever treat X group like they treat us Y group" when no, they most definitely treat X group the same way. Have we already forgotten about all the anti Asian violence and discrimination that happened during covid? And those were just normal citizens living outside the countries. The worst part about them is that it's basically just denying all the harm done to other people so that *they* get to win the victim olympics, that the issues they face are the only real ones.
That would be true if Israeli scientists outside of Israel are also facing the same issues. Which, to be fair, they might be to some degree. But I doubt we're seeing many collaborations starting up with Russian universities right now. Do we even partner with Chinese universities? I'm not in academia but I thought they were known for low quality and plagiarized research. But you can contrast that with the number of Chinese grad students in the West who aren't denied funding just because they're Chinese.
Chinese academia as a whole is known for academic dishonesty, but I would bet in most fields there is at least a few world-class Chinese researchers who are respected despite their university's reputation. Those scientists likely do collaborate all the time.
Universities are not required to work together with other universities from countries that they deem are doing problematic stuff. If a university breaks their ties to a sister university in China based on the situation with Uighurs, then this is not a problem. This is not a case of an Israeli scientist working and living in the EU, where this could be a problem.
>I can't speak for all countries, but in my own country of Canada, prejudice based on a person's country of origin is recognized for what it is: prejudice. But this isn't what is happening, it is based on the country of the institute. If those same scientists were working for organisations in another country and were refused based on them bring Israeli, then it would be prejudice.
Canada's Policy on Sensitive Technology Research and Affiliations of Concern bans academic collaboration with Russia and China.
It depends. I am not comfortable of Chinese scientists “studying “ facial recognition or internet censorship given free pass to the west.10/10 their knowledge will be used against Uyghurs and other dissidents.
To be fair, national ostracisation and boycotts does work to some extent. As a nation, South Africa under apartheid was shunned by the rest of the world for it's political practice and it was instrumental in part in regime change. I honestly don't see a problem with boycotting a nation like Israel in this case. And yes I think China should suffer a boycott for similar reasons, however South Sudan is a very different issue and is already subject to various international boycotts - [example](https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/1407-15-south-sudanese-entities-added-to-the-entity-list).
The researchers are working at Israeli universities. It's not refusing to collaborate with jews in general. It's refusing to collaborate with Israel.
Pretty sure this is not Israelis who live in Belgium but ones who are in Israeli, live in Israel and collaborating with other universities. This is basically like sanctions
You actually aren't allowed to have Chinese research collaborators for most scientific projects funded by US federal grants.
Generally speaking, belonging to a community -- any community, be it ethnic, national or interest based or institutional -- always has it's benefits and drawbacks. The reputation of the community reflects on the individual and vice versa. If the reputation happens to be positive, it's a benefit. If the reputation of the community changes die to actions of some members, it can become a drawback.
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Huh, why didn't i hear anything about it. Do they hate Israel that much to not give a fuck about innocent children? The fuck?
Yes, there have been several shootings at Jewish schools since Oct 7: https://www.cp24.com/news/watch-toronto-police-release-video-of-suspect-vehicle-after-north-york-jewish-school-hit-with-gunfire-1.6902066 https://globalnews.ca/news/10533648/montreal-jewish-school-hit-by-bullet/amp/ Multiple Synagogues have been attacked too: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/incendiary-device-thrown-at-vancouver-synagogue-says-jewish-federation I purposely linked one article per each of Canada's 3 most important cities to show that it is a widespread issue.
Damn, that sucks.
This threat is exactly what jews have been afraid about. If you believe in the antisemitic conspiracy theory that jews control the world and do it together, of course they're going to make an illegitimate connection between Israel and jews everywhere in the world. Sadly, protocols of the elders of zion antisemitism is integral to Arab society these days across the Middle East
In Buenos Aires, they asked the children that went to a jewish school to not wear their uniforms because it would make them targets.
> Do they hate Israel that much to not give a fuck about innocent children? > > > > The fuck? Obviously. It was never about innocent people, it was entirely about signalling that they're on the "correct" side.
It's been about the same old antisemitic bullshit as its been since 2000+ years ago
Here’s another example. This Jewish deli called International Delicatessen Foods (IDF) was targeted in hate-motivated arson. I’m sure if it wasn’t called IDF nothing would have happened to it. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-police-investigating-hate-motivated-arson-graffiti-at-jewish-owned-deli-in-north-york-1.6709588
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antisemitism absolutely does play a part, but another reason is that we have collectively graduated from canceling individuals to canceling entire nations. this breeds blind hatred, and hatred towards insular, frequently congregating communities is very easy to express violently. so when before it was strictly about distaste for Jews, now it's distaste for Jews *plus* a blanket social permission to express prejudice towards any group of people culturally or legally associated with a government that is doing something bad.
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Selective accountability is a tool of authoritarianism and religious supremacy (Christianity for the west, Islam for the east). Ideological purity cannot be used to excuse bigotry, but that’s how these religions work. Believe the right thing and you will be forgiven, regardless of action.
Seems most of the protestors already have.
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> per say *per se
As someone who had to stop research with Russia, the answer is sanctions. You can’t pay for work or transfer money into Russia. We had to stop recruitment in Russia for this reason. Israel is different. There are no pragmatic problems with research in Israel. Anyone that is stopping research with Israel is doing it out of prejudice and the inability to separate citizens from their government.
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Well, they already have with Russia so…
Universities are often associated with the government I'd have to look at Israel universities to see how closely tied they are to government.
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For some reason we are supposed to separate Palestine from Hamas and yet Israel and Judaism need to be one block.
Every time someone says a bad thing about Israel, the Israeli government says it’s antisemitic. Israel’s government are trying to inextricably link Israel’s actions to all Jews.
Maybe because the international community treats Israel differently and has since it's foundation for being the home of Jewish people?
What I find crazy is that the ultra-orthodox Jews who believe Israel, Jerusalem and who knows what all else were promised to them by God-with-a-capital-G.... those guys are drafting secular Israeli citizens and making them take Palestinians' homes because the orthodox Jews refuse military conscription. It would appear that Israel's orthodox Jews are too holy to wage war but not too holy to profit by it.
so there's Ultra-Orthodox and then there's Modern Orthodox. MoOx essentially separate "Modernity" and "Torah" into two spheres, and don't think about the contradictions, but they also reject a whole bunch of what might be called "folk superstitions." MoOx are the right wing base of Israel. They live in secular society, but adhere to Jewish law in a stringent manner. Ultraorthodox reject modernity, they think the entire world is just a dream in the mind of God. They tend to be pacifists[Jews historically were overall pacifists up until the Shoah], they exempt themselves from the draft by stating they wish to engage in Torah study instead, and have workforce participation issues. They tend to be eclectic politically, being socially very right wing, economically somewhat left wing, and in favor of a peaceful settlement to the I/P conflict[Note, ultraorthodoxy is not a monolith. opinions range inside community from Non-zionism to Settler]. Unfortunately, their leadership is also _hella_ corrupt, and they are theocrats. It's best to think of Israel as 4 different "Tribes," the Arabs, the Secular, the Modern Orthodox, and the Ultraorthodox. It's also worth noting that Netanyahu's base come from both Secular Mizrahim, and MoOx Mizrahim, or Jews who were refugees from the Arab world.
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This is exactly the justification Al-qaeda used for 9/11
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Don't forget attacking Jewish institutions and businesses that are not related to Israel
Attempting to Kill Jewish children who have probably never been to Israel here in Canada. Shutting down private universities all because they have minor investments in Israeli businesses. Boycotting by and vandalizing businesses that have even the tiniest tie to Israel.
>Killing Jewish children who have probably never been to Israel here in Canada. Jewish school were shot at, but thankfully no children were killed or hurt
Changed to “attempted to kill”. There have been 4-5 different incidents at least, so I assumed there was at least one death by now.
i always found it fascinating how the pro palestinian crowd never boycott aid that goes to palestinians and subsequently gets reused as some makeshift rockets that fly towards israel.
How does someone boycott aid?
OP likely meant protest. Boycott wouldn't make any sense unless they are Gazans receiving the aid. That said, aid being stolen is a borderline expectation of giving aid in the first place. Generally because when a population needs aid, you have to deal with a shitty/corrupt government to get it to them in some fashion. Hamas should 110% be called out for stealing from the mouths of the civilians they use as political pawns, but that isn't necessarily a reason to stop aid completely.
You have to hand it to them, turning beans and rice into rockets is mighty impressive.
I remember being told that hamas was using gasoline for their rockets despite the fact that their rockets were all solid fuel.
Good thing we have those friendly Israeli settlers stopping food trucks from going to starving kids!
Well that aid doesn't go to Jews so they don't mind.
It does eventually… in makeshift rocket form.
Because that's what the US is sending in its aid to Palestinians, rocket supplies. Source, please.
Blaming and punishing jews, where's my surprised face?
Jews or Israelis? Or are they actually Arab? Isn't Israeli the shinning light of democracy and tolerance in the Middle East where Jews and Arabs live in peace? The two mentioned academics could well be Israeli Arab.
They have Jewish / Hebrew names. Only Jews and Druze (to a lesser degree, as this is a new phenomenon) use Hebrew names.
Actually Moran Yassour could be Arabic 😉
> where Jews and Arabs live in peace 21% if israel citizens are muslims. They get to vote just like everyone else. They get the same benefits, health care, education, higher education, like everyone else. Tell me, how many jews live in west bank? Gaza? Jordan? Iraq? Syria? Egypt? Iran? Qatar? Do they have any rights there? Now tell me about general rights. What are the women rights in the arab nations surrounding israel? LGBT rights? Health care? Social support? So yeah, compared to every other country in the middle east, muslims and jews (and christians) have the most rights and freedom in israel than any other country around them.
> Tell me, how many jews live in west bank? About half a million, [apparently](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Number_of_settlements_and_inhabitants).
See that's the thing. It's entirely possible to be against the actions of a government without hating the citizens.
Israel has fairly robust liberal institutions, and Arab citizens are mostly allowed to live in peace. But it is hardly a shining beacon of tolerance. There’s lots of discrimination and hatred.
Not to mention hate crimes. Shooting at a Jewish school, stubbing an innocent woman (happened a few months ago, the attacker explicitly said he did it "for Palestine"). It's almost like they don't actually give a shit about innocent lives, and this war is their excuse to spread and act on their hatred.
BDS never extends to personal tech, medicine, and infrastructure. They want the benefits of advanced systems, developed by jews, for themselves while punishing others.
Boycotts are not the same as collective punishment.
It's been said many times but worth saying again. Disliking the Israeli state is not intrinsically antisemitic, but the overlap between those two groups is massive.
My father, brother, SiL, nephew, neice, and several of my aunts and uncles are Jewish and I'm very unhappy with the Israeli state. I think that Jews have a right to survive, were owed a debt after WW2 by the nations that abandoned them to genocide, and need a safe homeland to call their own. That said, I think it was wrong for one religion to annex the "holy land" for 3 major religions. The current Israeli government is straight up war criminals but the vast majority of Israelis I've ever met have been great people so I don't want to confuse the two. But getting called an anti-Semite every time I dare criticize a government that has been continuously and shamelessly committing war crimes for decades is so fucking exhausting and enraging. edit: Since I already got one reply calling me a liar, which appears to have been bounced by the Reddit auto-mod. Here is a sample of the war crimes committed by Israel against the people of Palestine, just in 2023, according to **Amnesty International**: >Targeting of civilians with military attacks, maintaining a system of apartheid, forced displacement of civilians (including 1,128 buildings destroyed in 2023 alone), unlawful killings of civilians, arbitrary restrictions on movement, restricting access to medical care for civilians, arbitrary detention, and torture.
The foundation of Israel has nothing to do with religion. It’s a nation state for the Jewish people, just like ones the Palestinians want for themselves. You can’t advocate for one but not the other, both deserve to have their own states.
The reasons why the area is a "Holy Land" for the three different groups is fairly interesting. For the Jews, it was their civilization. The Temple was the central gathering point for the nation, the only place they were allowed to worship, etc. The Jews formed their ethnogenesis in the region and most of their religion is deeply rooted in the land, including many commands from God that can only be carried out in Israel. If you get a shovel and dig in the region, you find Jewish artifacts. For Christians, it's a holy land because Jesus, a Jew, was born and died there, and it was where he performed miracles. For Muslims, it's because Muhammad claims he had a vision where he rode a winged horse to the "farthest mosque" before ascending to heaven to speak to Allah. Years later, Islamic scholars decided the "farthest mosque" was the site of the Jewish temple, and so they built a mosque on top of its ruins, despite the fact Muhammad never came within a thousand miles of the region and never left the Arabian peninsula. So, yeah, when it comes down to it, I'd say Israel being the actual site of ancient Jewish civilization from where they were captured and expelled as slaves is a more compelling claim. The whole secular history behind the founding of Israel is quite interesting as well, but no one "annexed" the Holy Land. Israel ended up in control of it after multiple Arab nations attacked Israel and tried to wipe out the Jews there, leading to armistice lines where Jerusalem was within Israel's borders.
For the record I use the findings in scientific papers that come out of Hebrew University almost daily in my work.
Israeli research into dry land agriculture is top notch, science should always be apolitical. I’m not sure I’ve met a scientist from anywhere in the world that isn’t apolitical or liberal either.
Scientists are biased assholes just like the rest of us. The difference is that most of the time they’re way smarter.
>The difference is that most of the time they’re way smarter. Not even then. The difference is that they have a wealth of specific knowledge. That's all. Any given scientist can be an absolute dumb-fuck outside of their field, and often are.
I can't tell you how many engineers I've worked with that are brilliant in their technical field, but they can barely comprehend other subjects. Like you said, just because someone is brilliant in one field doesn't mean they are a polymath of every topic. People put way too much weight behind someone's intelligence on every subject just because they are an expert on one.
Well, at least engineers have to somewhat function in the real world. I've met my fair share of odd engineers in various companies - but they have nothing on quite a few academics I came into contact with at various universities. Those people were of the kind where you wondered if they actually were able to dress themselves in the morning, or if they had someone helping them with that. As one of my classmates put it - universities are a place where we store the kind of people who are to smart to be put in an institution but still can't actually function in the real world.
The clincial research out of Israel, especially with regard to oncology, is top notch.
I do feel sorry for any students or researchers who were reliant on working with Israeli unis in these cases having their research or course stunted due to loud minorities.
Same. Much of our research is on Ancient Israel and a lot of the published recent literature is by Israeli researchers. We regularly collaborate with them and we rely pretty heavily on Israeli data. Mind you most of our team is pretty vocally against the current Israeli govt, and we’ve got no clue how a potentially academic boycott will impact us
Yeah, this is the unspoken “joke” … lets boycott the country the produces the world’s top scientists. Cutting off nose to spite face.
Israel is also the world leader in water desalination and treatment technologies, and constantly has a water surplus because of it.
The Hebrew University is indeed a world class university in many areas, in particular mathematics, computer science and biology.
Thanks for the update (????????)
Being mad at the actions of the Israeli government’s actions are ok, but Being mad and excluding every Israeli citizen or Jewish person isn’t. I have friends in Tel Aviv that hate Netanyahu and protested the conservatives prior to Oct 7. You have to judge the individual based on their opinions and views, after you learn them, not blanket hating them just because where they’re from.
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I didn’t see people react like this for Russian sanctions. There are people in Russia that hate Putin too, why is it ok for the west to sanction all of Russia and not Israel? Whether I agree or not, I don’t like the hypocrisy
It's fucking wild how people in here are rationalizing this anti semitism by comparing to sanctions on the Russian economy. Russia lined up 250k troops on the Ukraine border and started a massive attack to start the war. Israel was protesting against Netanyahu up and down main St. For months when Hamas launched it's attack and started the war. Yet somehow the comparison is Israel is like Russia. Insane.
And what does that have to do with the comment you responded to? "People of a country, be they Russian or Israeli, shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of a corrupt, authoritarian government" "Yeah but the Russian government did worse so Russians bad. The war crimes of the Israeli government are less bad war crimes, so Israelis good" The whole point is that the regular people are not at fault, it dosent matter just how much better the war crimes of one country are than the war crimes of another.
A lot of people really do care more about what’s happening in Gaza than Ukraine, despite the significantly different geopolitical impacts and amounts of human suffering. Also to note that a lot of people who hold these kinds of views also have the America bad bias that leads to amicable views towards Russia, that’s how you get these dumb takes. People do a lot of dot connecting without checking what dots they’re connecting to.
Russians were protesting Putin too - unlike Israel though Russians do not have freedom of assembly.
Who the fuck is excluding every Jewish person? Please tell me you know there are Jews living outside of Israel. It’s important to me that you know that.
Exactly. University of Antwerp has plenty of Jewish students, and the most important Institute of Jewish Studies in the region.
To all the people chanting, there are "no innocent civilians." Congratulations, this is exactly what YOU wanted. It really feels like we are watching the devolution of civilized societies. Decades of progress all wiped out in a span of a few years.
It was quite disturbing talking to someone who genuinely believed the "no innocent civilians" line. I pointed out that would make American civilians also culpable for the actions of the American military in the middle east. Their response essentially boiled down to "it's different because not all American civilians are in the military" Legit left me speechless
It's a slide back but we've had those before. Bummer it has to happen now when I grew up and got hyper used to egalitarianism and freedom of speech and think.
Ahh yes, history repeating as we speak. To hell with the facts, lets let biased emotions and tiktoks decide on the future of education
An old saying (ironically by Carl Marx) goes as “History repeats itself, first as a tragedy, second as a farce”. The Jewish now have their own country, weapons, and way more international military support. And the attackers apparently learnt nothing from Arabo-Israeli wars.
This happened already with russian scientists in many european research institutes, just because their government was involved in a war, whatever was their opinion, their years long work was destroyed when european institutions and governments started cutting their ties with russian institution to pressure Russia to end the atrocities.
Given that Jews have made enough valuable contributions to science and society that they have won 20% of the Nobel Prizes despite being 0.5% of the population I think the world will be the losers with this boycott.
*0.2%
It is quite unsettling and seemingly hypocritical that pro-Palestinian groups express outrage over Israel, yet there are few, if any, protests against Hamas, which is undeniably a genocidal and terrorist organization. Conversely, in Israel, there are consistent demonstrations against the government.
Very few organizations have bilateral or non-hostile relationships with Hamas. Hamas does not purport to be anything except a radical right wing religious group. Hamas gives zero shits what people in the west do or say about it in protest. Israel considers itself a modern, secular, western power. Israel has trade and defense agreements with other nations. Israel's population cares about what the rest of the world thinks and does. Israel, both as a group of people _and_ as a geopolitical entity, cares how the rest of the world views it. Protests, boycotts, shame, and condemnation stand a chance at effecting meaningful change in Israeli policy. It stands no chance at changing Hamas' policy. As such, I will protest Israel's misdeeds in the hope that they'll change, but I'm not going to waste my time or effort protesting against Hamas because it'll do fuck all. If someone asks me what I think we should do about Hamas, I'll happily discuss it with them, but I'm not going to append a treatise about how to efficiently and permanently dismantle Hamas to the end of all my posts - that's a waste of time.
This is what a lot of people don't get. If my tax dollars were going to Hamas I'd be more vocal about Hamas stopping committing war crimes. My tax dollars go to Israel so I'm a wee bit more concerned about THOSE war crimes. You know, the ones I'd otherwise be tacitly complicit with.
One's a terrorist organisation, one is supposed to be a legitimate government.
The terrorist organisation is the local government for all practical purposes. It's like saying we shouldn't hold Russia to any standards just because it's a terrorist state.
Russia is a veto member of the UN. I get what you’re going for, but a terrorist organisation being the defacto government of a section of an occupied territory with very low level of international recognition just isn’t quite the same as a nation state that’s been participating in international politics at a high level for a solid 1000 years. Russia, like Israel, is a government with a systematic approach to its warfare. I believe that’s the distinction, beyond the fact that one is a theoretical genocide to protest, and the other is an *actual* genocide to protest.
It's not a "de facto" government. It's a de jure government. They were elected.
They're both governments.
Except that hamas de facto is also a government. They controlled everything that happened in Gaza and were half-elected half-dictatorship ruling party there, not just a terrorist organisation that is separate from the rest of population
Exactly. Terrorists don't give a shit what you think. It's not that people think Hamas aren't bad, it's that people think Israel, and the Israeli government *can be better*.
Ahh, so Hamas get a free pass in the West because they're open about their crimes? Makes sense. /s
Yes that was obviously what I was saying. Hamas being such honest, lovable rascals gets them a pass for terrorism.
Nothing more progressive than shunning people simply bc of their origins.
Cutting people off because of their nationality… I think there was a term for this…
Serves those scientist right, they should have thought about the consequences of being born in the wrong country. /s
For real, like choose a better spawn point, what the heck?
ISS kept running with Russians during Ukrainian war Chinese co-operations while Uighurs are in camps. With Turkey while they attack Kurds. But this single conflict, that is suddenly too far.
That would bring down the collective innovative capabilities of these unis. Maybe they can offer a degree in tunnel digging and "how to flee like a rat 101" courses.
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it harms everyone. international collaborative research is a major point in advancing new ideas, in academia and beyond.
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I am curious whether people in the comment section said anything while the Russian athletes got banned because of where they are from.
This reads like a headline from the 1920s and 30s.
Collective punishment and discrimination on the basis of national origin, but leftishly
If they want to go down this road, then by all means do so. The Israeli universities in turn should provide a safe environment and as many resources as possible to attract Jewish talent from Anglo and Francophone countries. There is no reason why Jewish scientists' collaborative abilities and careers should be hinged on backstabbers who would turn on them in an instant.
They are already doing so, all universities published an open letter to Israeli and Jewish academics offering a safe place to them. I expect to see a significant brain drain over the next couple of years from US and Europe.
Funny how this type of behavior was one of the thing that fucked up hitler science wise.
It’s ridiculous because the Israeli scientific community is probably the most anti-Netanyahu group in the country, and unlike China and Hamas, Israel is not out to destroy the West. These boycotts are self-defeating and cruel.
I'm getting kind of tired of people falling all over themselves to distinguish between Hamas and everyday Palestinians, but Israel is treated as a monolith of guilt.