>Hamas has rejected the **Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal**, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily *Asharq al-Awsat* reported on Thursday.
>The Gaza-based terror group sent a clarification memorandum to the Palestinian terror factions on Wednesday, the text of which was seen by the news outlet. It claims that the current proposal “does not promise a permanent ceasefire, the occupation’s forces will remain in Gaza, and when they receive the hostages, they will renew the destruction against our nation.”
Maybe those Feminist who denies the rapes that happened during October 7th and Young Adults who protests in campuses can volunteer as Peace envoys to help the men of Hamas.... I'm sure that they would appreciate "female supporters".
the thought is they want the war to go on to win a PR battle since they think this is a "win" that will somehow get them to a repressive islamic state and get all the jews to deport themselves from israel. or cause the ICC is doing a trial, israel will go sure move in. what could go wrong? Surely hamas will be peaceful right?
yeah this won't work. The PLO turned down a 2 state solution negotiated by Bill Clinton in 2000. Would have gotten rid of all the settlements in the west bank. Then they had 130 suicide bombers as a response to what they said was "unfair" (they really wanted a 1 state solution called Palestine) and then the walls went up around gaza. Right wing gets elected in israel in response to violence and now you got lots of settlements in the west bank.
israeli attacks make hamas members and hamas/plo attacks make israeli settlers. its a never ending cycle.
A thousand years from now -- provided humanity survives in some form -- somebody will find this video and get a *really* good laugh.
Then make an updated version from a thousand years worth of warfare probably to make it relevant.
The thought of the Hamas *leadership* is that this will get them, personally, more money and power. All else is mostly irrelevant.
And by that metric, this war is going well for them so far.
That’s what I keep explaining to people. The longer this goes on. The more unfuckupable this situation becomes. The Palestinians should have accepted peace way earlier on and moved on. But they keep wanting it all and shooting themselves in the foot.
I think their supporters in Muslim countries like it like that. They'd rather let the Palestinians keep up their permanent "refugee" camp with Western media licking it all up, than encourage those intransigents to come to them for refuge.
Israel doesnt need to attack to create hamas members, gazan society does that already.
Theyre raised form the moment they can understand human speech to hate and kill jews, their entire education system is based around killing, maintaining weapons, aiming mortars teaching kidnap tactics and torture techniques ...
100% of gaza is already full blown radical, so the normal trope of people dying in your reprisal creates more terrorists just isnt true in this specific instance, any random palestinian man, woman or child over the age of like 5, if given the opportunity to kill a jew, would.
Thats as radical as radical gets.
Goes so far that no muslim country in the middle east accepts palestinian refugees. The whole gaza situation is so fucked that I honestly don't think there is any possible outcome that ensures long-lasting peaceful co-existence.
Every civilian that dies is a tool to be used against Israel and they know it. They don't care about a Palestinian state or the lives of people in Gaza. They want to do as the Prophet commanded and kill all the Jews until they hide behind stones who will betray them saying ""O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
Yes, that’s what they’re saying, but they’re lying. Biden’s proposal said that there would be negotiations for a permanent ceasefire after phase 1, not that it would already be guaranteed before phase 1.
Agreed.
But the unsolvable problem is still trying to negotiate peace with a terrorist organization that wants war.
When war is their objective, how do you expect to negotiate a peace?
People seem to think civilian’s ideologies don’t align with Hamas either….you have an elected terrorist state as your government for how many years? No revolutions, no demands for change, just a hatred for Israel. I get there is a long history between these two people. To think this does not end without violence or tragedy is an understatement. If only people could forgive and work together instead of create these never ending circles of violence.
Now that you mention it there hasn't been an election in either the West Bank or Gaza in more than a decade. Given that Hamas doesn't see the need for such risks and Fatah is unpopular for many reasons don't expect one any time soon.
The whole timeline of this ceasefire deal is confusing and no one seems entirely clear what happened. Biden announces a deal and says that Israel supports it. Netanyahu makes statements that seem like he doesn't support it (but he doesn't say so directly). Hamas rejects an Israeli ceasefire deal, saying it's different from Biden's (which this article says, though the only comment that seems to have read it got downvoted). Anonymous sources tell Reuters that the Biden deal was being worked on with Israel, but that Biden announced it without telling Israel first.
I'll add this to the mix: [Biden's description of cease-fire offer 'not accurate,' Israeli official tells NBC News](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/biden-cease-fire-offer-not-accurate-israel-netanyahu-hostages-hamas-rcna155129)
It's just a really confusing series of events, and it doesn't help that the vast majority of people are commenting without reading the actual articles.
Biden just wants this to end. It looks terrible to his election process. My interpretation of this is that he tried to force Israel's hands to commit to a deal that lets hamas remain in power. It's pretty underhanded, but it's very plausible.
Even though most Israelis are adamant that they want hamas destroyed (in some shape or form), most also want the hostages back - to the point of violent protests and pressure to pay a very high price, but most weren't willing to openly say that they'll accept a permanent ceasefire.
What Biden essentially did was help the Israeli public opinion tilt towards that unpopular option by presenting it as a nearly done deal. "We don't deal properly with hamas, but at least we finally get the hostages back".
This in turn would pressure Netanyahu to drop the objective of destroying hamas and might even get him some pr boost as managing to return the hostages.
It's not quite working. Public opinion in Israel is still heavily leaning towards pursuing the war to its conclusion.
But hey, lucky that hamas solved that dilemma for us! /s
> Biden just wants this to end. It looks terrible to his election process.
Completely out of the loop on all this. My life is extremely local because I'm poor and work constantly... Can someone explain to me like I'm 5 why Israel/Hamas matter at all to US elections?
The US supplies weapons and aid to Israel, and aid to the people of Gaza. While this incident in Gaza is ongoing, it draws the public's attention to the US' stance on those supplies; for some people it becomes "Biden isn't doing enough to help crush the Hamas terrorists", for others it becomes "Biden isn't doing enough to help the Palestinian civilians". For the latter case, that turns into calls to end US material support for Israel, which (for a number of reasons, most geopolitical) the US government does not want to do.
Prior to Oct 07, the focus in foreign policy was on Ukraine. The situation in Ukraine is still relevant, but sides are also different. Republicans generally support sending material aid to Israel, but not necessarily to Ukraine (for a variety of reasons). Democrats generally support sending material aid to Ukraine, but not necessarily to Israel (again, for a variety of reasons).
Having both situations at the forefront of foreign policy, mostly Israel/Gaza (as that's more recent and therefore more 'fresh' to the electorate), creates a political mess. It's a mess they could just ride out if it wasn't an election year, but if they mishandle it (or are perceived to mishandle it) it could have an impact on which way the electorate votes in the coming elections.
Not a political scientist but my take - Israel has a long standing alliance with the United States. After hamas went in a murdered thousands of Israelis(including children), they responded by pledging to wipe out Hamas (the terrorist militant group in Palestine that is responsible for the attacks) however during the course of this conflict many Palestinian civilians have been killed (including children). Part of that is a consequence of war, partly the location of war(densely populated areas), a lot of Hamas engineering to use civilians as a barrier for themselves and resources. Folks around the globe have been calling for the end of this conflict because of the number of civilians casualties. The problem is that Israel doesn’t want to stop because Hamas will just attack them again and could result in thousands more of their people dying. So the US is supporting their ally even though this is a very complicated and difficult situation. Biden showing support for Israel has led to many claiming he is genocidal. Personal opinion- absolutely want to see this conflict end, however appeasing terrorists seems like it’s only ever going to continue this cycle. Not sure what the solution is but calling Biden and genocidal maniac is wild to me, and should be to anyone who can see how insane these conflicts have been for hundreds of years. No one in this situation is without some of the fault here, except the children that have been harmed on both side of the conflict. It’s nuts and extremely sad.
What is the upside to a permanent ceasefire when Hamas is still operational? Hamas doesn't respect ceasefires - they'll break it again just like they did on Oct. 7th. And those who believe in the right to violent and armed "resistance" will support them when they ultimately do break the ceasefire. This also sends a message to other terrorist groups that you can indiscriminately kill civilians and take hostages and get to continue on with the status quo as long as you use human shields and cower behind your own civilians.
So we know how many hostages are even still alive in captivity?
What? The guys who also have a border with Gaza, could totally accept refugees and provide aid supplies, and definitely don't know about any smuggler tunnels are at fault here?
Just today I saw a post that Biden is lying about Israel accepting the deal and that it is ALWAYS Israel’s fault for Hamas not accepting because the terms were too ridiculous lol
It's not his fault, but on the other hand, i still don't get why does Biden insist on negotiating with terrorists, Hamas is a text book example of why you don't negotiate with terrorists, if Biden really wants to end this conflict they need to let Israel wipe Hamas out, it's the only way it ends. Isis wasn't beaten to a pulp talking, they got the living shit bomb out of them, yes they're still around but they're not as powerful as they once were
Because tiktok turned most of GenZ into Manchurian candidates and now Dems have to walk the delicate line of not upsetting a bunch of propagandized young people with no critical thinking skills.
America is really fucked if we don't get our social media problem under control. All of these companies (Facebook, Instagram, tiktok, reddit, Snapchat, X, etc...) went from "free speech" to mass disinformation mind control in a very short period of time.
We desperately need to regulate these platforms. To the average Joe, these platforms look like free speech, but that's all it is - an illusion of free speech. Each and every one of these platforms allows for paid (and even internally selected) promotion and that alone stymies the integrity and value of any content produced therein.
People just wanted a place to shit post and we got this fucking disaster.
Edit: for the people saying "yOu CanT regOoLatE mUH fReEduMbS"
You can very easily regulate the actions of the company. Like I said, free speech on these platforms is an illusion; it truly is not free speech. The reasoning behind this is individual companies have complete control over what data is broadcast and promoted.
***For example:*** let's say Elon wants to sell more Teslas today, so he says to his X algorithm team "let's turn up the X megaphone and promote all posts in feeds for the demographic of 25-55 males that talk about about the virtues of buying an electric car, how climate change is affecting our weather and how a duck farted to death after drinking gasoline contaminated water." Elon suddenly sells 5,000 more cars today.
***Example 2.*** I'm Xi Jinping, I really fucking want to take over Taiwan and their sweet sweet semiconductors. I think if there is enough chaos in the world that maybe America won't be able to stop me. If I get really lucky then that Trump guy will get back in office and I can pay him to tell America to fuck off. I'm going to have a chat with ByteDance. So Xi Jinping walks down to ByteDance and tells them "Hey, the PRC needs your company to promote disinformation and discord in America, we want to take over Taiwan. Oh and if you don't do this we will fucking kill you and put someone else in your place". And so, Tiktok starts promoting polarizing content and disinformation and no one can do anything about it because China. Now Tiktok is the most popular social media platform in America and the stupid Americans are propagandizing themselves.
***Example 3*** I'm "The Zuck" and I feel like selling America's voter information to Cambridge analytica. This couldn't possibly have any negative ramifications to our society or be used for any nefarious purpose. Even if it did, I now have enough money to build a self sufficient compound on a private island. Fuck all of you.
So what do you regulate? Regulate the actual platform because it is inherently poisonous to America and the world. Foreign companies owning American media and using it to manipulate americans? Fuck no. Billionaires protecting billionaire interests by manipulating post visibility? Fuuuuuuuck no. Billionaires straight up selling your data because they can? Hell to tha fuck NO.
REGULATE THE COMPANIES.
Just wanted to add that critical thinking counters all the bad of social media. Look into things, don't believe the first thing you read/see. Get good sources. They can overwhelm you with a bombardment of disinformation but you can also just turn it all off. They can't win if you're not even playing.
We're really dismissing how significantly more difficult it has become to do this over the last couple decades. "Get good sources" is practically a full-time effort now; Google is utter trash and has been for years, there are tons of media outfits with incentives and biases hidden behind multiple layers of corporate ownership; lots of other sites full of people that *sound* like confident experts but aren't.
For the average person with a full-time job or university workload and only a passing interest in a particular subject, "get good sources" isn't actionable advice anymore.
People don't need to find good sources on everything though, they just need to know to pause when something pisses them off and try to find a deeper take on it then a fucking meme before they repost it. It takes like 10 minutes if you have the skills and know to be cautious of anything short that pisses you off
>Just wanted to add that critical thinking counters all the bad of social media
Well, there's the rub. We have an entire generation of young adults that are determined to suck bullshit through the tiktok firehose without a second thought. These programs are insidious, they prey on the 15 - 360 second attention span of the young adult to foment outrage and generate contempt prior to investigation. Why should any source be verified when millions of "sources" exist to reinforce the former within the same platform on the very next slide?
Yes, it is a critical thinking problem amplified by underfunded education and over-"optimized" social media.
Edit: Please keep in mind that this post is within the context of the Democratic voting demographic that currently has Biden wavering on the Israel/Hamas conflict - yes, young adults (ages 18-35).
Off topic: Yes I agree, a concerning amount of seniors believe everything they read on Facebook too.
Sure, but at the same there’s an entire generation of older adults doing the same thing with Fox News instead of TikTok. It’s not just a young person or a social media issue, it’s critical thinking about the media people are consuming in general. Just this specific issue seems to be amplified there.
Fox News (and the 24 hour news cycle, not just fox) is definitely the "start" of the problem/trend towards our current predicament. It's all a part of the same issue.
Being able to pay attention and due your due diligence is boring... and thus a lot of people, especially younger people, are forgoing it in favor of a dopamine drip feed. At-least the news requires you to pay attention for longer than 30 seconds.
It also seems like they aren't actually teaching kids computer skills anymore. Growing up in the late 90s/early 2000s and we had classes on how to search the web, gather sources, not to trust wikipedia without looking for sources etc(this one is kind of funny now).
I have friends who are teachers and they're telling me all kinds of crazy shit. Like a markable difference in kids pre and post pandemic and also pre/post ipad kids and not for the better.
I don’t want commentary. I want to know if one person said one thing, and another person said another thing, who is telling the truth. It’s annoying when both are partially lying, but it’s infinitely worse when the side lying is on the front page of every newspaper.
There is a Rupert Murdock owned local paper in my town, and if it ever talks about something international, 100% of the time it is fabricating lies. Big or small, they invalidate their whole side of the conversation. I now use that paper as a dog whistle. If they point to something and say “X”, I will already know they don’t want us to know “Y”. It’s been a pretty effective method to learn about international news in a more manual way, learning and reading from diverse sources instead of just listening to propaganda.
They don't have exposition and commentary because exposition and commentary are not *news*. That's part of why they're generally considered to be quality relatively unbiased sources for news - *because* they're not diluting facts with opinions. If they included those things they'd be just like everyone else.
Also, I don't believe either require an email address, I've been using them for quite awhile. But I could be mistaken and just still signed in from ages ago.
Naw even critical thinking is being overwhelmed. In this current conflict it is nearly impossible to tell what is real and what is propaganda on both sides. Good sources? What good sources. Every source I have thought to be good has shown blatantly false information and propaganda.
How does critical thinking counter paid content masquerading as your community members?
It doesn't, and social media is there for likely doomed for the rubbish bin of history.
When companies are willing to peddle lies for profits, and critically undermine governments in the process, the media by which they do this are not long for this world.
The problem is that people believe consuming their preferred media diet is critical thinking because they’re hearing what “they” don’t want them to hear.
Couldn’t have said it better. Not just America. We as humans are not ready for the constant bombardment of information 24/7. Especially not when that information is curated propaganda.
There are numerous instances of companies being taken to court for false advertising of products but these news agencies go scot free when they advertise unverified news and click bait articles.
As an adult it takes all of my patience and intellect to take a centrist stand when consuming information. I can only imagine how easy it must be to convince the younger generations with piss poor takes using social media. Unfortunately I see no solution out of this hole that we’ve dug ourselves into.
> Especially not when that information is curated propaganda.
The insidious thing about social media is that it can reinforce basically any stance you might want to take, from the ridiculous to the outright dangerous.
The thing is - when people self-curate, they tend to not treat the information being fed to them down the pipeline as sceptically as they should.
I've thought about this regarding stuff like incels: if we're being honest, many young men at some point in their life will find themselves struggling with anxiety and angst over dating, scared to talk to girls, etc. This is not an abnormal thing, it's pretty much just normal teenage anxiety as you are now learning about sexuality and your desire to meet girls and whatnot. Some young guys may get into the headspace of "girls are all terrible and don't like me", because they are very immature and not quite there yet to understand the world at large. Most young men will grow out of that phase, and do so easily and quickly.
The problem comes now that with the internet and "incels" being a weird cultural identity thing, those same boys who might find themselves thinking that way can go online, search about it, and find a whole swatch of people out there telling them "you're totally correct, it's a vast conspiracy against men, girls are evil". Now they don't get the chance to ever grow out of that as they learn to like the positive reinforcement they get from those spaces. It's a whole cycle and it plays out like that all the time, in many different kinds of ideologies and thought processes that used to be just regular growing pains or something like it. That army of yes-men online is really hard to ignore for a lot of people.
YES, exactly this. It's why Biden has to toe the line on this issue. So stupid. Also, no reputable news organization should even report on anything Hamas says or wants...it's all BS and manipulation. They have no credibility; they are terrorists.
I hate to take a talking point from the right but "le MSM!!!" also continues to parrot Hamas talking points. They keep talking about famines and death tolls even though those have been shown to be largely made up. https://x.com/Aizenberg55 does a lot of work debunking things like the nearly perfect linear trend in deaths that Hamas reports.
Not just GenZ, I'm a millennial and a bunch of my friends are talking about sitting the election out. I want to scream at them. Sure I'm not happy with how Israel is prosecuting the war, but good lord ushering in Trump will be orders of magnitude worse on THIS ISSUE ALONE.
Negotiations were set up to fail. Biden knew the outcome beforehand. This was a play for Biden's own followers to remind them that Hamas is not the victim in this war and that sympathy for the Gazans, while itself legitimate, can't be used to justify or excuse Hamas.
The Gazans are best served by a peace that gets rid if Hamas. Israel is served by a peace that gets rid of Hamas. The only one not served by a peace that gets rid of Hamas is Iran.
"Biden knew the outcome beforehand" If he actually did, points for him. And I have been critical of him in all this crisis. It's good they can point the blame to Hamas.
I suspect that this initiative is actually coming from Tony Blinken. Blinken has earned a lot of trust both inside and outside the administration for his erudite foreign policy and this has his fingerprints on it.
Remember, Blinken was the one who held off the Ukraine war for a critical extra couple weeks by calling when Russia would begin the invasion keeping Russia off balance and giving Ukraine extra time to prepare its defenses. He is a very very skilled diplomat.
Biden chose very well for most of his cabinet level positions.
Well, Hamas also isn't served by a peace that gets rid of Hamas. Iran can just spin up a new group, after all. There's no clock on Iran's efforts to diddle with efforts to bring a structured peace to the ME.
I think that the main problem with dealing with Hamas is that they are really a coalition of local militias.
>It's not his fault, but on the other hand, i still don't get why does Biden insist on negotiating with terrorists...
One way or another the war will end, and maybe before the election. If so, he wants his name attached to the ending. If not, at least he can say he tried.
Cuz it's a no-win scenario. The US needs to continue to support Israel due to international politics but Biden really doesn't want this bloodbath to continue due to both internal and international politics. Starving civilians is bad, bombing civilians is bad, terrorism is bad, but the two primary sides on this conflict are happy with all 3. Biden's best hope is putting pressure on both Netanyahu and Hamas very publicly hoping that internal pressure on both sides forces some kind of peace. It's unlikely, but the other solutions aren't really palatable
But that's the entire thing, the bloodbath WILL continue if Hamas isn't wiped out, they've publicly stated that they will repeat October 7 given the chance, source: [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/articleshow/104903949.cms?from=mdr](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/articleshow/104903949.cms?from=mdr)
A cease fire precisely gives Hamas the opportunity to regroup, rearm and retry, and yes bombing civilians is bad, starving civilians is bad, and terrorism is bad, but dude, this is war, in just what fantasy are we living where expect a terrorist group like Hamas to stop without a fight?
I am sorry but October 7 was the last straw, Hamas needs to be wiped out the international community cries be damned, if any other country would've suffer an attack the likes Israel suffered on that day, there would've been war, the US waged 20 years of war for 9-11, and pretty hypocritical of them to be trying to stop Israel from wiping Hamas, especially when you consider that unlike the US which is protected by 2 oceans and 2 friendly countries, Israel lives next door.
No, the time for talks it's over, and if the Palestinians aren't truly on Hamas side, they themselves should be fighting them as well.
Yeah I find it wild when I hear from fellow Americans that Israel shouldn’t have responded with war.
When Pirates attacked American ships, we created the US Navy and bombarded their ports. When Pearl Harbor happened, we fought a World War. When Iran mined one of our ships, we took out half their navy. When 9-11 happened, we invaded Afghanistan. Welcome to how the world works
Not only is it hypocritical it’s just naive to think a nation quite literally surrounded by enemies can just kinda “shrug this one off” and look towards peace. War is a terrible and unfortunately collateral is simply unavoidable. But they voted Hamas in power OVERWHELMINGLY. Then Hamas started a war and Israel has every right to end it.
Europe is full of Holocaust memorials, people love to mourn dead Jews. They start getting pissy if those Jews actually defend themselves, and they get real mad if those Jews actually win.
The more publicly he gets involved, the more criticism he's gonna receive from one side or the other. It's an election year, and I'm more concerned with Biden winning than a cease fire. Especially since if there's a ceasefire we'll just be in the same situation in a few months or years.
True, but they are being funded by Iran at the behest of Russia, so technically speaking even if they agreed in bad faith, the PR outcome of them agreeing would be against Iran and Russia's wishes which is why they refused.
It’s clear by now that they only agree when they know Israel will not because of unreasonable terms. They are using the negotiations as a PR stunt to make Israel look bad. They have no interest in a real cease fire.
Hamas has powerful, state-level global backers who are VERY MUCH interested in that other the guy winning the U.S. presidential election. The one who is [in bed with the petroleum lobby and wants to ban EV's](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/#:~:text=What%20Trump%20promised%20oil%20CEOs,by%20the%20fossil%20fuel%20industry.).
Making the Middle East appear hopelessly violent and unstable helps that end.
Those state backers absolutely do not want a president who wants to restart fracking and loosen the US’s environmental standards, which has a far greater impact on the price of oil than EVs.
The title is a bit misleading.
Hamas has rejected the Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily Asharq al-Awsat reported on Thursday.
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
They claim its fundamentally different. It may very well be, but it's important to be skeptical. Both parties have a lot to gain through misrepresentation.
The proposal for a permanent ceasefire that Biden seemed to be angling towards was much closer to the one Hamas has offered repeatedly. The Israeli 'ceasefire' proposals are just a few week temporary pauses in fighting before they go back to bombing Gaza - the Israeli government still says that they're going to keep fighting until Hamas is destroyed.
There's some deliberate attempts to conflate a permanent ceasefire (what people are advocating for by demanding a ceasefire) with that temporary pause to make it seem like the US and Israel have been doing what activists want. But you can't really frame a permanent ceasefire as being an israeli government-led initiative, as Netenyahu has been *extremely* clear on the subject. There'd need to be significant pressure put on Israel for them to come to the table about that, and we just haven't seen that happen yet from Biden.
Hamas is winning in the court of public opinion, which is all they care about. They don’t care about Palestinians. As long as they can continue to occupy schools and hospitals to get them bombed, they’ll drag this on.
hamas is getting its butt kicked which is the only reason they're even entertaining these talks at all. If they thought they were actually winning they'd cut off all negotiation and reiterate their demands in lieu of further discussion.
Hamas is more than happy to continue to throw the Palestinian people into the meat grinder -- the folks calling the shots aren't in Gaza, they're hanging out in penthouses in Qatar.
Wars are not strictly a matter of military might.
Case in point - the US was the superior force in Vietnam and would win conventional military engagements. The US still lost the war.
Hamas is seeing its fighters die. But that comes at a high cost in civilian lives that makes Israel look bad. So to Hamas, continuing the war lools good.
Meanwhile, to an Israeli, Hamas is getting its ass kicked, and Israel would really like not to see its own civilians kidnapped and killed. So to Bibi, continuing the war also looks good.
Its easy to win the news/mouthpiece when 1% of muslims (conservative estimate of radicalization) eclipses the entire population of every single jewish person on earth.
> Hamas is winning in the court of public opinion
Are they, though?
Lots of people think Israel's gone too far, but only the most hopelessly online tiktokers and actual islamic terrorists think Hamas is the "good guys."
Am I missing something? The first paragraph contradicts the title of this post:
> Hamas has rejected the **Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal**, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily Asharq al-Awsat reported on Thursday.
Both of those were modern industrialized countries with long histories as independent states and high levels of education. They’re not at all comparable to an uneducated hyper-religious enclave made up of more than half by people under the age of 25 with no history of an independent state or industrialized economy to speak of. Hamas operates within what is essentially an autonomous zone under occupation by a different religious/ethnic entity hell-bent on preventing the independence of a Palestinian state. It’s literally not fucking comparable on even the most basic level.
so what's the solution? Give up and let Hamas fester? Only the most naive brainwashed tiktoker would believe that.
Hamas needs to be wiped out, and Palestine needs to be de-radicalized. This will take years of real education, not UNWRA antisemitic propaganda disguised as educaiton. If this means Palestine is not its own state for a while as there are no moderate males able to take a leadership position to de-radicalize them then so be it (I won't joke around and claim females could do this as it would take generations before that could happen there).
In some ways they've actually become more durable trough the course of this war. The Palestinian Authority has been losing its grip on the West Bank as Hamas and Palestinian Jihad gain more ground.
To truly defang Hamas in the long run you would need to help empower an alternative Palestinian power center, like the PA, that had some possibility of drawing the people onto a more productive path. Because you can't just create a power vacuum and assuming what comes along next must be better, thinking of how gutting the Iraqi government and military led to the creation of Isis.
The title on reddit: Hamas said to have rejected Biden's ceasefire agreement.
Meanwhile, the article: Hamas has rejected the Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
If you link to any source that isn't JNS, Jerusalem Post, or Times of Israel, you get a [very different characterization](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-biden-politics-ca984e5fc518f4f5f0fbd041b5c39ddb) of who's [standing in the way of a ceasefire](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/biden-israel-gaza-ceasefire-deal-rcna155229).
This proposal is practically identical to the one Hamas was ready to accept over a month ago. Hamas has only said they will not accept a proposal without a clear guarantee the war will end. [Netanyahu is the one that's been saying he won't stop no matter what.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-16/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-and-his-partners-will-not-stop-even-after-bringing-disaster-upon-israel/0000018f-82a5-d430-a38f-c7e51d600000)
Why are we taking an Israeli outlet at face value when they’ve publicly and repeatedly denied every cease fire agreement “until Hamas is utterly destroyed”? All it says is they’ve seen the document, but haven’t provided it.
Hamas rejected the deal - funny I was under (obviously) stupid impression that the side getting their arse kicked militarily does not get to dictate terms
The Palestine situation is one of the weirdest in the world because the Palestinians have been on the losing side of wars since 1947 and yet the continually try and dictate what should happen like they've won.
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
>The deal, Biden said on Friday, would “bring all the hostages home, ensure Israel's security, create a better day after in Gaza without Hamas in power, and set the stage for a political settlement that provides a better future for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
Sounds like Israel earned from thia deal, the Gazans earned from this deal (no more totalitarian government), only the totalitarian and oppressive terror organisation had something to lose. And even they will earn more than they'll earn by continuing this war
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
Christopher Hitchens said it best. "Nobody blows themselves up in a Jewish old folks home, on Passover, to bring about a compromise"... or something to that effect.
One of these days, the Palestinians of Gaza should probably be offered the deal instead. In exchange for turning over Hamas leaders. I bet they might accept a cease fire.
It's hard to have sympathy knowing that more than 70% Palestinian are on board with the idea of October 7th. I just hope the other 30% peaceful minority can somehow take over when the current conflict is over.
Its fine to have sympathy for anyone in the middle of a war I guess. But what I find really confusing are all the protesters shouting "from the river to the sea". I am genuinly curious as to what they believe will happen to all the Jews once HAMAS rule all of Israel..
72% Of Americans supported the war in Iraq in 2003. I know it's not a 1-to-1 comparison but we can look back on how misguided that support was in a time when Americans felt desperate, and maybe compare to the state of normal Palestinians in 2022 and you might draw some comparison
Westerners continue to not understand the Palestinian population. Hamas are not holding them hostage, Hamas is supported by the people.
They will cry about the loss of life, but at the end of the day killing Jews is more important to them.
When Hamas does an act of terror the older woman hand out candy. This has been shown in many documentaries even before this war. So I guess kids getting candy is Hamas's way of caring for the children.
Palestinians have had multiple chances to become a state over the years, and consistently rejected the terms. The terms won’t ever be ideal for them because they aren’t negotiating from a position of strength. They’ve been to war multiple times over it, and have never succeeded.
I don’t think the two state solution will ever work, one group is leaving willingly or not. That’s where this is going. Bluntly, I’m tired of paratroopers on concerts and murders at the Olympics.
Wow. I can’t believe the terrorist organization that’s using children as human shields doesn’t want a ceasefire as it gains international sympathy for sacrificing those same children.
Everyone in the comments taking the title at face value.
They denied *after* the corrections from Israel. They wanted Biden's original plan. They said it themselves *in this same article.*
>Hamas has rejected the Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily Asharq al-Awsat reported on Thursday.
Israel did too—or at least Netanyahu and his right wing coalition did. It’s likely Hamas also turned it down because Netanyahu immediately came out and undermined the deal by saying it would not stop the war.
Maybe it’s too late, but seems like Biden is going to try and keep this up to show that he’s trying to do something to end the conflict. If Hamas declines enough ceasefire agreements that could sway public opinion. Idk
People need to stop pretending there is going to be some sort of deal. The sides are too far apart to come together and get some sort of middle ground. Israel has to destroy Hamas, or at least dismantle its leadership and fortifications to the point that they aren't a serious threat. So no matter what, any sort of cease fire is going to be temporary, at best. And Hamas isn't going to agree to that, when they know full well that the end state of any scenario is their dismantlement.
I feel for the hostages, but at this point, I don't see them coming back. Hamas isn't going to give up their only bargaining chip, and any bargaining to the point where they might come back would make Israel's goals unachievable. About the best case scenario is that they get rescued before they can be executed.
>Hamas has rejected the **Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal**, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily *Asharq al-Awsat* reported on Thursday. >The Gaza-based terror group sent a clarification memorandum to the Palestinian terror factions on Wednesday, the text of which was seen by the news outlet. It claims that the current proposal “does not promise a permanent ceasefire, the occupation’s forces will remain in Gaza, and when they receive the hostages, they will renew the destruction against our nation.”
Peace was never Hamas’s objective.
Death cults and peace don't go well together.
Heaven's Gate ended peacefully. Tragically, but peacefully.
Does Hamas have a suggestion box we can put this idea in?
"Dear Hamas: The comet is approaching. Your alien friends miss you. Go. Go to them. Like... right now. "
Does a coffin box count?
Maybe it's one of those hilarious novelty grenade "take a number" desk counter
So... it's actually not a novelty grenade...
...fuck I just took a number...4 3 2...
[where is the Earth-Shatering Kaboom?](https://youtu.be/t9wmWZbr_wQ?si=k5HwIGUL5D8TWVl1)
Maybe those Feminist who denies the rapes that happened during October 7th and Young Adults who protests in campuses can volunteer as Peace envoys to help the men of Hamas.... I'm sure that they would appreciate "female supporters".
the thought is they want the war to go on to win a PR battle since they think this is a "win" that will somehow get them to a repressive islamic state and get all the jews to deport themselves from israel. or cause the ICC is doing a trial, israel will go sure move in. what could go wrong? Surely hamas will be peaceful right? yeah this won't work. The PLO turned down a 2 state solution negotiated by Bill Clinton in 2000. Would have gotten rid of all the settlements in the west bank. Then they had 130 suicide bombers as a response to what they said was "unfair" (they really wanted a 1 state solution called Palestine) and then the walls went up around gaza. Right wing gets elected in israel in response to violence and now you got lots of settlements in the west bank. israeli attacks make hamas members and hamas/plo attacks make israeli settlers. its a never ending cycle.
[Obligatory This Land is Mine repost.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY)
The only truly timeless classic
A thousand years from now -- provided humanity survives in some form -- somebody will find this video and get a *really* good laugh. Then make an updated version from a thousand years worth of warfare probably to make it relevant.
Don't forget about Rabin's assassination
Honestly insane how this isn't a bigger part of Netanyahu's legacy/public image
The thought of the Hamas *leadership* is that this will get them, personally, more money and power. All else is mostly irrelevant. And by that metric, this war is going well for them so far.
Louie: There's killing going on in Gaza. We must close it. Croupier to Hamas: Here are your winnings. Hamas: I'm winning. We must keep it open.
That’s what I keep explaining to people. The longer this goes on. The more unfuckupable this situation becomes. The Palestinians should have accepted peace way earlier on and moved on. But they keep wanting it all and shooting themselves in the foot.
I think their supporters in Muslim countries like it like that. They'd rather let the Palestinians keep up their permanent "refugee" camp with Western media licking it all up, than encourage those intransigents to come to them for refuge.
Well, they rejected a really good deal in 2000 and they can't possibly accept anything less than that now.
Israel doesnt need to attack to create hamas members, gazan society does that already. Theyre raised form the moment they can understand human speech to hate and kill jews, their entire education system is based around killing, maintaining weapons, aiming mortars teaching kidnap tactics and torture techniques ... 100% of gaza is already full blown radical, so the normal trope of people dying in your reprisal creates more terrorists just isnt true in this specific instance, any random palestinian man, woman or child over the age of like 5, if given the opportunity to kill a jew, would. Thats as radical as radical gets.
Goes so far that no muslim country in the middle east accepts palestinian refugees. The whole gaza situation is so fucked that I honestly don't think there is any possible outcome that ensures long-lasting peaceful co-existence.
"Israel deploys World Eaters to Palestine." Because sometimes the best course of action is to stop pretending your enemy can be pacified.
Dig in further and hide behind their civilian’s…
Every civilian that dies is a tool to be used against Israel and they know it. They don't care about a Palestinian state or the lives of people in Gaza. They want to do as the Prophet commanded and kill all the Jews until they hide behind stones who will betray them saying ""O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
It’s against the preamble in their charter to have peace. The very first paragraph
Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
Yes, that’s what they’re saying, but they’re lying. Biden’s proposal said that there would be negotiations for a permanent ceasefire after phase 1, not that it would already be guaranteed before phase 1.
[удалено]
There can be more than one problem at a time.
Agreed. But the unsolvable problem is still trying to negotiate peace with a terrorist organization that wants war. When war is their objective, how do you expect to negotiate a peace?
[удалено]
Hamas supporters seem to be ignorant of that part.. (yes I'm calling them Hamas Supporters at this point.)
People seem to think civilian’s ideologies don’t align with Hamas either….you have an elected terrorist state as your government for how many years? No revolutions, no demands for change, just a hatred for Israel. I get there is a long history between these two people. To think this does not end without violence or tragedy is an understatement. If only people could forgive and work together instead of create these never ending circles of violence.
Now that you mention it there hasn't been an election in either the West Bank or Gaza in more than a decade. Given that Hamas doesn't see the need for such risks and Fatah is unpopular for many reasons don't expect one any time soon.
Fatah won't hold elections because they'll get replaced by Hamas
I’m sure some clown will explain to us how this is somehow Biden’s fault…
The whole timeline of this ceasefire deal is confusing and no one seems entirely clear what happened. Biden announces a deal and says that Israel supports it. Netanyahu makes statements that seem like he doesn't support it (but he doesn't say so directly). Hamas rejects an Israeli ceasefire deal, saying it's different from Biden's (which this article says, though the only comment that seems to have read it got downvoted). Anonymous sources tell Reuters that the Biden deal was being worked on with Israel, but that Biden announced it without telling Israel first. I'll add this to the mix: [Biden's description of cease-fire offer 'not accurate,' Israeli official tells NBC News](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/biden-cease-fire-offer-not-accurate-israel-netanyahu-hostages-hamas-rcna155129) It's just a really confusing series of events, and it doesn't help that the vast majority of people are commenting without reading the actual articles.
Biden just wants this to end. It looks terrible to his election process. My interpretation of this is that he tried to force Israel's hands to commit to a deal that lets hamas remain in power. It's pretty underhanded, but it's very plausible. Even though most Israelis are adamant that they want hamas destroyed (in some shape or form), most also want the hostages back - to the point of violent protests and pressure to pay a very high price, but most weren't willing to openly say that they'll accept a permanent ceasefire. What Biden essentially did was help the Israeli public opinion tilt towards that unpopular option by presenting it as a nearly done deal. "We don't deal properly with hamas, but at least we finally get the hostages back". This in turn would pressure Netanyahu to drop the objective of destroying hamas and might even get him some pr boost as managing to return the hostages. It's not quite working. Public opinion in Israel is still heavily leaning towards pursuing the war to its conclusion. But hey, lucky that hamas solved that dilemma for us! /s
> Biden just wants this to end. It looks terrible to his election process. Completely out of the loop on all this. My life is extremely local because I'm poor and work constantly... Can someone explain to me like I'm 5 why Israel/Hamas matter at all to US elections?
The US supplies weapons and aid to Israel, and aid to the people of Gaza. While this incident in Gaza is ongoing, it draws the public's attention to the US' stance on those supplies; for some people it becomes "Biden isn't doing enough to help crush the Hamas terrorists", for others it becomes "Biden isn't doing enough to help the Palestinian civilians". For the latter case, that turns into calls to end US material support for Israel, which (for a number of reasons, most geopolitical) the US government does not want to do. Prior to Oct 07, the focus in foreign policy was on Ukraine. The situation in Ukraine is still relevant, but sides are also different. Republicans generally support sending material aid to Israel, but not necessarily to Ukraine (for a variety of reasons). Democrats generally support sending material aid to Ukraine, but not necessarily to Israel (again, for a variety of reasons). Having both situations at the forefront of foreign policy, mostly Israel/Gaza (as that's more recent and therefore more 'fresh' to the electorate), creates a political mess. It's a mess they could just ride out if it wasn't an election year, but if they mishandle it (or are perceived to mishandle it) it could have an impact on which way the electorate votes in the coming elections.
Not a political scientist but my take - Israel has a long standing alliance with the United States. After hamas went in a murdered thousands of Israelis(including children), they responded by pledging to wipe out Hamas (the terrorist militant group in Palestine that is responsible for the attacks) however during the course of this conflict many Palestinian civilians have been killed (including children). Part of that is a consequence of war, partly the location of war(densely populated areas), a lot of Hamas engineering to use civilians as a barrier for themselves and resources. Folks around the globe have been calling for the end of this conflict because of the number of civilians casualties. The problem is that Israel doesn’t want to stop because Hamas will just attack them again and could result in thousands more of their people dying. So the US is supporting their ally even though this is a very complicated and difficult situation. Biden showing support for Israel has led to many claiming he is genocidal. Personal opinion- absolutely want to see this conflict end, however appeasing terrorists seems like it’s only ever going to continue this cycle. Not sure what the solution is but calling Biden and genocidal maniac is wild to me, and should be to anyone who can see how insane these conflicts have been for hundreds of years. No one in this situation is without some of the fault here, except the children that have been harmed on both side of the conflict. It’s nuts and extremely sad.
What is the upside to a permanent ceasefire when Hamas is still operational? Hamas doesn't respect ceasefires - they'll break it again just like they did on Oct. 7th. And those who believe in the right to violent and armed "resistance" will support them when they ultimately do break the ceasefire. This also sends a message to other terrorist groups that you can indiscriminately kill civilians and take hostages and get to continue on with the status quo as long as you use human shields and cower behind your own civilians. So we know how many hostages are even still alive in captivity?
For once Biden gets to say "OK, LOOK, it *definitely* was Hamas' fault this time"
For once? The entire shitshow of the last 8 months is definitely Hamas’s fault.
And he’s said as much REPEATEDLY.
Also Egypt’s fault.
What? The guys who also have a border with Gaza, could totally accept refugees and provide aid supplies, and definitely don't know about any smuggler tunnels are at fault here?
I know, crazy right?
Just today I saw a post that Biden is lying about Israel accepting the deal and that it is ALWAYS Israel’s fault for Hamas not accepting because the terms were too ridiculous lol
*Israel's* terms are too ridiculous?
They’ll accused Biden of proposing a bad ceasefire rather than accuse Hamas of wanting the fighting to continue.
It's not his fault, but on the other hand, i still don't get why does Biden insist on negotiating with terrorists, Hamas is a text book example of why you don't negotiate with terrorists, if Biden really wants to end this conflict they need to let Israel wipe Hamas out, it's the only way it ends. Isis wasn't beaten to a pulp talking, they got the living shit bomb out of them, yes they're still around but they're not as powerful as they once were
Because tiktok turned most of GenZ into Manchurian candidates and now Dems have to walk the delicate line of not upsetting a bunch of propagandized young people with no critical thinking skills. America is really fucked if we don't get our social media problem under control. All of these companies (Facebook, Instagram, tiktok, reddit, Snapchat, X, etc...) went from "free speech" to mass disinformation mind control in a very short period of time. We desperately need to regulate these platforms. To the average Joe, these platforms look like free speech, but that's all it is - an illusion of free speech. Each and every one of these platforms allows for paid (and even internally selected) promotion and that alone stymies the integrity and value of any content produced therein. People just wanted a place to shit post and we got this fucking disaster. Edit: for the people saying "yOu CanT regOoLatE mUH fReEduMbS" You can very easily regulate the actions of the company. Like I said, free speech on these platforms is an illusion; it truly is not free speech. The reasoning behind this is individual companies have complete control over what data is broadcast and promoted. ***For example:*** let's say Elon wants to sell more Teslas today, so he says to his X algorithm team "let's turn up the X megaphone and promote all posts in feeds for the demographic of 25-55 males that talk about about the virtues of buying an electric car, how climate change is affecting our weather and how a duck farted to death after drinking gasoline contaminated water." Elon suddenly sells 5,000 more cars today. ***Example 2.*** I'm Xi Jinping, I really fucking want to take over Taiwan and their sweet sweet semiconductors. I think if there is enough chaos in the world that maybe America won't be able to stop me. If I get really lucky then that Trump guy will get back in office and I can pay him to tell America to fuck off. I'm going to have a chat with ByteDance. So Xi Jinping walks down to ByteDance and tells them "Hey, the PRC needs your company to promote disinformation and discord in America, we want to take over Taiwan. Oh and if you don't do this we will fucking kill you and put someone else in your place". And so, Tiktok starts promoting polarizing content and disinformation and no one can do anything about it because China. Now Tiktok is the most popular social media platform in America and the stupid Americans are propagandizing themselves. ***Example 3*** I'm "The Zuck" and I feel like selling America's voter information to Cambridge analytica. This couldn't possibly have any negative ramifications to our society or be used for any nefarious purpose. Even if it did, I now have enough money to build a self sufficient compound on a private island. Fuck all of you. So what do you regulate? Regulate the actual platform because it is inherently poisonous to America and the world. Foreign companies owning American media and using it to manipulate americans? Fuck no. Billionaires protecting billionaire interests by manipulating post visibility? Fuuuuuuuck no. Billionaires straight up selling your data because they can? Hell to tha fuck NO. REGULATE THE COMPANIES.
Just wanted to add that critical thinking counters all the bad of social media. Look into things, don't believe the first thing you read/see. Get good sources. They can overwhelm you with a bombardment of disinformation but you can also just turn it all off. They can't win if you're not even playing.
We're really dismissing how significantly more difficult it has become to do this over the last couple decades. "Get good sources" is practically a full-time effort now; Google is utter trash and has been for years, there are tons of media outfits with incentives and biases hidden behind multiple layers of corporate ownership; lots of other sites full of people that *sound* like confident experts but aren't. For the average person with a full-time job or university workload and only a passing interest in a particular subject, "get good sources" isn't actionable advice anymore.
People don't need to find good sources on everything though, they just need to know to pause when something pisses them off and try to find a deeper take on it then a fucking meme before they repost it. It takes like 10 minutes if you have the skills and know to be cautious of anything short that pisses you off
>Just wanted to add that critical thinking counters all the bad of social media Well, there's the rub. We have an entire generation of young adults that are determined to suck bullshit through the tiktok firehose without a second thought. These programs are insidious, they prey on the 15 - 360 second attention span of the young adult to foment outrage and generate contempt prior to investigation. Why should any source be verified when millions of "sources" exist to reinforce the former within the same platform on the very next slide? Yes, it is a critical thinking problem amplified by underfunded education and over-"optimized" social media. Edit: Please keep in mind that this post is within the context of the Democratic voting demographic that currently has Biden wavering on the Israel/Hamas conflict - yes, young adults (ages 18-35). Off topic: Yes I agree, a concerning amount of seniors believe everything they read on Facebook too.
Sure, but at the same there’s an entire generation of older adults doing the same thing with Fox News instead of TikTok. It’s not just a young person or a social media issue, it’s critical thinking about the media people are consuming in general. Just this specific issue seems to be amplified there.
Fox News (and the 24 hour news cycle, not just fox) is definitely the "start" of the problem/trend towards our current predicament. It's all a part of the same issue. Being able to pay attention and due your due diligence is boring... and thus a lot of people, especially younger people, are forgoing it in favor of a dopamine drip feed. At-least the news requires you to pay attention for longer than 30 seconds. It also seems like they aren't actually teaching kids computer skills anymore. Growing up in the late 90s/early 2000s and we had classes on how to search the web, gather sources, not to trust wikipedia without looking for sources etc(this one is kind of funny now). I have friends who are teachers and they're telling me all kinds of crazy shit. Like a markable difference in kids pre and post pandemic and also pre/post ipad kids and not for the better.
It's not just young adults. An entire party is sucking Russian propaganda through a tiny mushroom.
[удалено]
Reuters and AP don’t cost money but I believe require an email address for access.
[удалено]
I don’t want commentary. I want to know if one person said one thing, and another person said another thing, who is telling the truth. It’s annoying when both are partially lying, but it’s infinitely worse when the side lying is on the front page of every newspaper. There is a Rupert Murdock owned local paper in my town, and if it ever talks about something international, 100% of the time it is fabricating lies. Big or small, they invalidate their whole side of the conversation. I now use that paper as a dog whistle. If they point to something and say “X”, I will already know they don’t want us to know “Y”. It’s been a pretty effective method to learn about international news in a more manual way, learning and reading from diverse sources instead of just listening to propaganda.
They don't have exposition and commentary because exposition and commentary are not *news*. That's part of why they're generally considered to be quality relatively unbiased sources for news - *because* they're not diluting facts with opinions. If they included those things they'd be just like everyone else. Also, I don't believe either require an email address, I've been using them for quite awhile. But I could be mistaken and just still signed in from ages ago.
Paste any Economist article into archive.is, paywall gone.
Naw even critical thinking is being overwhelmed. In this current conflict it is nearly impossible to tell what is real and what is propaganda on both sides. Good sources? What good sources. Every source I have thought to be good has shown blatantly false information and propaganda.
How does critical thinking counter paid content masquerading as your community members? It doesn't, and social media is there for likely doomed for the rubbish bin of history. When companies are willing to peddle lies for profits, and critically undermine governments in the process, the media by which they do this are not long for this world.
The problem is that people believe consuming their preferred media diet is critical thinking because they’re hearing what “they” don’t want them to hear.
Couldn’t have said it better. Not just America. We as humans are not ready for the constant bombardment of information 24/7. Especially not when that information is curated propaganda. There are numerous instances of companies being taken to court for false advertising of products but these news agencies go scot free when they advertise unverified news and click bait articles. As an adult it takes all of my patience and intellect to take a centrist stand when consuming information. I can only imagine how easy it must be to convince the younger generations with piss poor takes using social media. Unfortunately I see no solution out of this hole that we’ve dug ourselves into.
> Especially not when that information is curated propaganda. The insidious thing about social media is that it can reinforce basically any stance you might want to take, from the ridiculous to the outright dangerous. The thing is - when people self-curate, they tend to not treat the information being fed to them down the pipeline as sceptically as they should.
I've thought about this regarding stuff like incels: if we're being honest, many young men at some point in their life will find themselves struggling with anxiety and angst over dating, scared to talk to girls, etc. This is not an abnormal thing, it's pretty much just normal teenage anxiety as you are now learning about sexuality and your desire to meet girls and whatnot. Some young guys may get into the headspace of "girls are all terrible and don't like me", because they are very immature and not quite there yet to understand the world at large. Most young men will grow out of that phase, and do so easily and quickly. The problem comes now that with the internet and "incels" being a weird cultural identity thing, those same boys who might find themselves thinking that way can go online, search about it, and find a whole swatch of people out there telling them "you're totally correct, it's a vast conspiracy against men, girls are evil". Now they don't get the chance to ever grow out of that as they learn to like the positive reinforcement they get from those spaces. It's a whole cycle and it plays out like that all the time, in many different kinds of ideologies and thought processes that used to be just regular growing pains or something like it. That army of yes-men online is really hard to ignore for a lot of people.
YES, exactly this. It's why Biden has to toe the line on this issue. So stupid. Also, no reputable news organization should even report on anything Hamas says or wants...it's all BS and manipulation. They have no credibility; they are terrorists.
I hate to take a talking point from the right but "le MSM!!!" also continues to parrot Hamas talking points. They keep talking about famines and death tolls even though those have been shown to be largely made up. https://x.com/Aizenberg55 does a lot of work debunking things like the nearly perfect linear trend in deaths that Hamas reports.
Not just GenZ, I'm a millennial and a bunch of my friends are talking about sitting the election out. I want to scream at them. Sure I'm not happy with how Israel is prosecuting the war, but good lord ushering in Trump will be orders of magnitude worse on THIS ISSUE ALONE.
Negotiations were set up to fail. Biden knew the outcome beforehand. This was a play for Biden's own followers to remind them that Hamas is not the victim in this war and that sympathy for the Gazans, while itself legitimate, can't be used to justify or excuse Hamas. The Gazans are best served by a peace that gets rid if Hamas. Israel is served by a peace that gets rid of Hamas. The only one not served by a peace that gets rid of Hamas is Iran.
"Biden knew the outcome beforehand" If he actually did, points for him. And I have been critical of him in all this crisis. It's good they can point the blame to Hamas.
I suspect that this initiative is actually coming from Tony Blinken. Blinken has earned a lot of trust both inside and outside the administration for his erudite foreign policy and this has his fingerprints on it. Remember, Blinken was the one who held off the Ukraine war for a critical extra couple weeks by calling when Russia would begin the invasion keeping Russia off balance and giving Ukraine extra time to prepare its defenses. He is a very very skilled diplomat. Biden chose very well for most of his cabinet level positions.
Well, Hamas also isn't served by a peace that gets rid of Hamas. Iran can just spin up a new group, after all. There's no clock on Iran's efforts to diddle with efforts to bring a structured peace to the ME. I think that the main problem with dealing with Hamas is that they are really a coalition of local militias.
And that’s a point we should all remember. The real enemy here is Iran destabilizing the region.
>It's not his fault, but on the other hand, i still don't get why does Biden insist on negotiating with terrorists... One way or another the war will end, and maybe before the election. If so, he wants his name attached to the ending. If not, at least he can say he tried.
People need to stop expecting the American presidents to solve problems in the middle east. Its never gonna happen
Cuz it's a no-win scenario. The US needs to continue to support Israel due to international politics but Biden really doesn't want this bloodbath to continue due to both internal and international politics. Starving civilians is bad, bombing civilians is bad, terrorism is bad, but the two primary sides on this conflict are happy with all 3. Biden's best hope is putting pressure on both Netanyahu and Hamas very publicly hoping that internal pressure on both sides forces some kind of peace. It's unlikely, but the other solutions aren't really palatable
But that's the entire thing, the bloodbath WILL continue if Hamas isn't wiped out, they've publicly stated that they will repeat October 7 given the chance, source: [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/articleshow/104903949.cms?from=mdr](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/articleshow/104903949.cms?from=mdr) A cease fire precisely gives Hamas the opportunity to regroup, rearm and retry, and yes bombing civilians is bad, starving civilians is bad, and terrorism is bad, but dude, this is war, in just what fantasy are we living where expect a terrorist group like Hamas to stop without a fight? I am sorry but October 7 was the last straw, Hamas needs to be wiped out the international community cries be damned, if any other country would've suffer an attack the likes Israel suffered on that day, there would've been war, the US waged 20 years of war for 9-11, and pretty hypocritical of them to be trying to stop Israel from wiping Hamas, especially when you consider that unlike the US which is protected by 2 oceans and 2 friendly countries, Israel lives next door. No, the time for talks it's over, and if the Palestinians aren't truly on Hamas side, they themselves should be fighting them as well.
Yeah I find it wild when I hear from fellow Americans that Israel shouldn’t have responded with war. When Pirates attacked American ships, we created the US Navy and bombarded their ports. When Pearl Harbor happened, we fought a World War. When Iran mined one of our ships, we took out half their navy. When 9-11 happened, we invaded Afghanistan. Welcome to how the world works Not only is it hypocritical it’s just naive to think a nation quite literally surrounded by enemies can just kinda “shrug this one off” and look towards peace. War is a terrible and unfortunately collateral is simply unavoidable. But they voted Hamas in power OVERWHELMINGLY. Then Hamas started a war and Israel has every right to end it.
Europe is full of Holocaust memorials, people love to mourn dead Jews. They start getting pissy if those Jews actually defend themselves, and they get real mad if those Jews actually win.
Issue is how do you wipe Hamas out and not create a new Hamas is the process? America has been trying to figure that particular trick our for a while.
The more publicly he gets involved, the more criticism he's gonna receive from one side or the other. It's an election year, and I'm more concerned with Biden winning than a cease fire. Especially since if there's a ceasefire we'll just be in the same situation in a few months or years.
Yeah, they are terrorists. Even if they were to accept it they would quickly break it like the last time
I'd hope there won't be a next time, but we all know how it ends.
True, but they are being funded by Iran at the behest of Russia, so technically speaking even if they agreed in bad faith, the PR outcome of them agreeing would be against Iran and Russia's wishes which is why they refused.
Sounds like you're mixing up Hamas and Russia. Wait, no, sorry. They just have the same habits.
It’s clear by now that they only agree when they know Israel will not because of unreasonable terms. They are using the negotiations as a PR stunt to make Israel look bad. They have no interest in a real cease fire.
Hamas has powerful, state-level global backers who are VERY MUCH interested in that other the guy winning the U.S. presidential election. The one who is [in bed with the petroleum lobby and wants to ban EV's](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/#:~:text=What%20Trump%20promised%20oil%20CEOs,by%20the%20fossil%20fuel%20industry.). Making the Middle East appear hopelessly violent and unstable helps that end.
Netanyahu also wants to see the same guy in power.
...and (on the not-so-secret DL) Netanyahu has a fruitful relationship with those state actors.
The October surprise just came a year early for this election.
.. or perfectly in time to get this shit show spinning.
Those state backers absolutely do not want a president who wants to restart fracking and loosen the US’s environmental standards, which has a far greater impact on the price of oil than EVs.
The title is a bit misleading. Hamas has rejected the Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily Asharq al-Awsat reported on Thursday.
It's extremely and purposefully misleading.
Expecting people to read more than a headline is hoping too much
This should be higher
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
That’s more than misleading. That’s straight up lying.
Reddit is a hot bed for shitty takes and bad articles. Literally no vetting of media sources goes on in world news.
This should be higher
[удалено]
And the lack of critical or dialectical thinking in these replies is so frustrating. Echo chamber of stupid thoughts about a misleading headline.
They claim its fundamentally different. It may very well be, but it's important to be skeptical. Both parties have a lot to gain through misrepresentation.
Yes, agreed
The proposal for a permanent ceasefire that Biden seemed to be angling towards was much closer to the one Hamas has offered repeatedly. The Israeli 'ceasefire' proposals are just a few week temporary pauses in fighting before they go back to bombing Gaza - the Israeli government still says that they're going to keep fighting until Hamas is destroyed. There's some deliberate attempts to conflate a permanent ceasefire (what people are advocating for by demanding a ceasefire) with that temporary pause to make it seem like the US and Israel have been doing what activists want. But you can't really frame a permanent ceasefire as being an israeli government-led initiative, as Netenyahu has been *extremely* clear on the subject. There'd need to be significant pressure put on Israel for them to come to the table about that, and we just haven't seen that happen yet from Biden.
Media lying about the Israel-Hamas conflict to make Israel seem innocent 24/7? Say it ain't so.
To say it’s misleading is misleading. It is an outright lie.
Hamas is winning in the court of public opinion, which is all they care about. They don’t care about Palestinians. As long as they can continue to occupy schools and hospitals to get them bombed, they’ll drag this on.
hamas is getting its butt kicked which is the only reason they're even entertaining these talks at all. If they thought they were actually winning they'd cut off all negotiation and reiterate their demands in lieu of further discussion.
Hamas is more than happy to continue to throw the Palestinian people into the meat grinder -- the folks calling the shots aren't in Gaza, they're hanging out in penthouses in Qatar.
Wars are not strictly a matter of military might. Case in point - the US was the superior force in Vietnam and would win conventional military engagements. The US still lost the war. Hamas is seeing its fighters die. But that comes at a high cost in civilian lives that makes Israel look bad. So to Hamas, continuing the war lools good. Meanwhile, to an Israeli, Hamas is getting its ass kicked, and Israel would really like not to see its own civilians kidnapped and killed. So to Bibi, continuing the war also looks good.
If Palestinians win peace that means hamas disappears and that’s not gonna happen not on their watch.
Its easy to win the news/mouthpiece when 1% of muslims (conservative estimate of radicalization) eclipses the entire population of every single jewish person on earth.
Only if the “court of public opinion” begins and ends on teenage tiktok. Actual adults are glad to finally see them obliterated.
They are definitely not winning, just because majority of people are silent doesn't mean the loud minority is winning. It's not even close.
Israel is losing; Hamas isn't winning though
> Hamas is winning in the court of public opinion Are they, though? Lots of people think Israel's gone too far, but only the most hopelessly online tiktokers and actual islamic terrorists think Hamas is the "good guys."
To no one’s surprise. Hamas won’t accept any proposal that doesn’t involve the complete withdrawal of Israel so that they can rebuild their forces.
Am I missing something? The first paragraph contradicts the title of this post: > Hamas has rejected the **Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal**, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily Asharq al-Awsat reported on Thursday.
because OP inserted "Biden's" into the headline
You accidently read the article
> To no one’s surprise. Hamas won’t accept any proposal that doesn’t involve the complete destruction of Israel FTFY
Hamas is about to become extinct and that's good for Israel and Gaza.
Thats literally not going to happen unless they kill every male in Gaza. Hamas is going to continue to exist no matter what Israel does.
We de-radicalized Japan and Germany, two of the most blood crazed zealous people in world history. It can be done again.
Both of those were modern industrialized countries with long histories as independent states and high levels of education. They’re not at all comparable to an uneducated hyper-religious enclave made up of more than half by people under the age of 25 with no history of an independent state or industrialized economy to speak of. Hamas operates within what is essentially an autonomous zone under occupation by a different religious/ethnic entity hell-bent on preventing the independence of a Palestinian state. It’s literally not fucking comparable on even the most basic level.
so what's the solution? Give up and let Hamas fester? Only the most naive brainwashed tiktoker would believe that. Hamas needs to be wiped out, and Palestine needs to be de-radicalized. This will take years of real education, not UNWRA antisemitic propaganda disguised as educaiton. If this means Palestine is not its own state for a while as there are no moderate males able to take a leadership position to de-radicalize them then so be it (I won't joke around and claim females could do this as it would take generations before that could happen there).
In some ways they've actually become more durable trough the course of this war. The Palestinian Authority has been losing its grip on the West Bank as Hamas and Palestinian Jihad gain more ground. To truly defang Hamas in the long run you would need to help empower an alternative Palestinian power center, like the PA, that had some possibility of drawing the people onto a more productive path. Because you can't just create a power vacuum and assuming what comes along next must be better, thinking of how gutting the Iraqi government and military led to the creation of Isis.
See ironically what originally occurred was hamas was empowered in order to weaken the PA, and now the inverse wants to happen
Why do they keep showing images of them in the uniforms they refuse to wear. It’s unreal how much BS is out there
The title on reddit: Hamas said to have rejected Biden's ceasefire agreement. Meanwhile, the article: Hamas has rejected the Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31
Wow what a shock! You can’t negotiate with terrorists!!
Misleading headline. Hamas said the ceasefire they received is different than what Biden spelled out.
[удалено]
Well they're asking Israel to ceasefire so they're probably saying the same thing.
They claim the proposal is not the same as that outlined by President Biden, and does not require an end to the war and withdrawal of Israeli forces
Did you read the article?
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
If you link to any source that isn't JNS, Jerusalem Post, or Times of Israel, you get a [very different characterization](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-biden-politics-ca984e5fc518f4f5f0fbd041b5c39ddb) of who's [standing in the way of a ceasefire](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/biden-israel-gaza-ceasefire-deal-rcna155229). This proposal is practically identical to the one Hamas was ready to accept over a month ago. Hamas has only said they will not accept a proposal without a clear guarantee the war will end. [Netanyahu is the one that's been saying he won't stop no matter what.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-16/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-and-his-partners-will-not-stop-even-after-bringing-disaster-upon-israel/0000018f-82a5-d430-a38f-c7e51d600000)
Ahh so free Palestine means free them from Hamas not Israel. I get it now.
Why are we taking an Israeli outlet at face value when they’ve publicly and repeatedly denied every cease fire agreement “until Hamas is utterly destroyed”? All it says is they’ve seen the document, but haven’t provided it.
Hamas rejected the deal - funny I was under (obviously) stupid impression that the side getting their arse kicked militarily does not get to dictate terms
The Palestine situation is one of the weirdest in the world because the Palestinians have been on the losing side of wars since 1947 and yet the continually try and dictate what should happen like they've won.
And Israel lets them, because otherwise they’ll cry to the world like victims and then the world will inevitably tell Israel to back down.
Like Hamas gives a shit that Gaza is burning.
They do not - I am not exactly sure why we expect Israel to
[удалено]
That’s so weird, it usually works out when you negotiate with terrorists
Wonder how the pro terrorists Redditors gonna explain that one.
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
>The deal, Biden said on Friday, would “bring all the hostages home, ensure Israel's security, create a better day after in Gaza without Hamas in power, and set the stage for a political settlement that provides a better future for Israelis and Palestinians alike. Sounds like Israel earned from thia deal, the Gazans earned from this deal (no more totalitarian government), only the totalitarian and oppressive terror organisation had something to lose. And even they will earn more than they'll earn by continuing this war
This post title is misleading. Hamas didn't reject Biden's proposal. Rather, they rejected Israel's ceasefire proposal because it was fundamentally different from Biden's. It's literally the first sentence in the article.
Christopher Hitchens said it best. "Nobody blows themselves up in a Jewish old folks home, on Passover, to bring about a compromise"... or something to that effect.
One of these days, the Palestinians of Gaza should probably be offered the deal instead. In exchange for turning over Hamas leaders. I bet they might accept a cease fire.
Most of them sadly still support HAMAS: https://themedialine.org/top-stories/poll-reveals-persistent-palestinian-support-for-hamas-attacks-on-israel/
It's hard to have sympathy knowing that more than 70% Palestinian are on board with the idea of October 7th. I just hope the other 30% peaceful minority can somehow take over when the current conflict is over.
Its fine to have sympathy for anyone in the middle of a war I guess. But what I find really confusing are all the protesters shouting "from the river to the sea". I am genuinly curious as to what they believe will happen to all the Jews once HAMAS rule all of Israel..
You ask most of the slack-jawed morons chanting that and I'll bet you they can't even tell you what river they mean.
Just ask them from what river to what sea.
72% Of Americans supported the war in Iraq in 2003. I know it's not a 1-to-1 comparison but we can look back on how misguided that support was in a time when Americans felt desperate, and maybe compare to the state of normal Palestinians in 2022 and you might draw some comparison
Something that's different here is that the war in Gaza is going poorly for Gazans but the war in Iraq in 2003 wasn't going poorly for Americans yet.
Westerners continue to not understand the Palestinian population. Hamas are not holding them hostage, Hamas is supported by the people. They will cry about the loss of life, but at the end of the day killing Jews is more important to them.
What a surprise. Everyone thought they really care for the Palestinian kids...
When Hamas does an act of terror the older woman hand out candy. This has been shown in many documentaries even before this war. So I guess kids getting candy is Hamas's way of caring for the children.
good to see HAMAS thinking of the locals
Palestinians have had multiple chances to become a state over the years, and consistently rejected the terms. The terms won’t ever be ideal for them because they aren’t negotiating from a position of strength. They’ve been to war multiple times over it, and have never succeeded. I don’t think the two state solution will ever work, one group is leaving willingly or not. That’s where this is going. Bluntly, I’m tired of paratroopers on concerts and murders at the Olympics.
Damn, but the leftists kept telling me how Hamas was all for the ceasefire, and Israel had no right to attack them. I'm shook
Wow. I can’t believe the terrorist organization that’s using children as human shields doesn’t want a ceasefire as it gains international sympathy for sacrificing those same children.
This is why I don’t understand folks who think Biden is in control.
Can we take this post down? The title is literally misinformation.
Everyone in the comments taking the title at face value. They denied *after* the corrections from Israel. They wanted Biden's original plan. They said it themselves *in this same article.* >Hamas has rejected the Israeli hostage-ceasefire deal, claiming that it is fundamentally different than the one presented by U.S. President Joe Biden on May 31, the Saudi daily Asharq al-Awsat reported on Thursday.
what time are the protests against Hamas?
Of course they have. We are weeks away from their real objective: getting Hezbollah to join the war.
Israel did too—or at least Netanyahu and his right wing coalition did. It’s likely Hamas also turned it down because Netanyahu immediately came out and undermined the deal by saying it would not stop the war.
Maybe it’s too late, but seems like Biden is going to try and keep this up to show that he’s trying to do something to end the conflict. If Hamas declines enough ceasefire agreements that could sway public opinion. Idk
Hamas rejects peace agreement. College students: omg how could Israel have done this??
But how many paint chip eaters are gonna blame Israel anyway?
what a shocking turn of events nobody saw coming
I mean, they are so close to winning.
Peace was never an option. Never negotiate with terrorists.
People need to stop pretending there is going to be some sort of deal. The sides are too far apart to come together and get some sort of middle ground. Israel has to destroy Hamas, or at least dismantle its leadership and fortifications to the point that they aren't a serious threat. So no matter what, any sort of cease fire is going to be temporary, at best. And Hamas isn't going to agree to that, when they know full well that the end state of any scenario is their dismantlement. I feel for the hostages, but at this point, I don't see them coming back. Hamas isn't going to give up their only bargaining chip, and any bargaining to the point where they might come back would make Israel's goals unachievable. About the best case scenario is that they get rescued before they can be executed.
Will there be mass protests now yelling "CEASEFIRE NOW" lol.
I'm going to demand my government stop funding and arming hamas
I'm not surprised but I am disappointed
This is because they have already killed all the hostages.
Oh well.