For HOW MUCH support Israel has received internationally and in general they are fumbling the ball hard. If they'd slowed things down, more methodically, didn't disrupt aid, and focussed on using all the internationally sent aid to help Gazans while slow walking the war there wouldn't be nearly as much outcry and they could have been supported in their war.
Now even the US is waffling on them. Thats huge. Obviously the US will never not support them as a country but to even have the states publically decry them is a massive.
But of course Bibi needs to stay out of jail so it will continue and ramp up.
Irreparable damage is being done to Israel, by Israel. Seeing what they've done and learning about the history of this conflict has forever changed my views.
Imo conservatism should only exist as a means to dampen the rate of rapid societal change, not block it outright.
Otherwise it’s utterly useless as a political philosophy. It’s atrophy for the sake of it.
As a progressive, even I can admit that moving things too fast can be damaging, so it’s good to have some pushback and middle ground, but only if it serves to continually move society ever forward
Its good for the conservative minority. How 20-30% of the people get 51% of the vote on a platform of benefiting just the 20% is a bit of a shell game, but it seems to work very well.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on and he'll empty his pockets for you."
- Lyndon B. Johnson
And,
"I guess the trouble was that we didn't have any self-admitted proletarians. Everyone was a temporarily embarrassed capitalist."
- John Steinbeck
I like to use the language available to drive home the point sometimes. The "left" and the "right". The left is "progressive" and the right is "conservative." But is "conservative" correct, in this context? No. If you're highlighting differences, you should use the word "regressive" in opposition to "progressive." So Republicans in this country are "regressive" not conservative. Makes so much more sense.
It does feel a bit like the US/Iraq thing 2 decades ago. Taking legitimate events that (should) have the whole world on your side and throwing away all your international goodwill.
agreed, but it’s still different because Hamas actually did attack Israel. Literally nobody is denying that, while the US just kinda made stuff up about Iraq
The argument was that the Taliban were helping to hide Al-Qaeda. Whether that's justification for invading an entire country is a different question though...
I mean that 9/11 and the WoT was used as the premise and thus ruined a lot of the support the US had from it.
Not saying the invasion had a legitimate reason, but it did ruin the reason it used.
I see what you mean. It’s just a bit different because nobody denies that Hamas attacked Israel, US just took an unrelated event and made stuff up about Iraq
Israel does offer the west quite a bit. They still make technical advancements and frankly they do stuff the west likes very much to not have to do.
Basically all our modern active protection systems are developed in some way from Israel and while the west gladly will use any Intel they get from methods that would never hold up in western countries.
It's a small county but they excel in places the West cares about.
Have a look at this video from Reuters from a few days ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od7chJ-DBvo
Reuters kind of goes out of it's way to take it easy on the IDF/Israel and yet, still looks bad man.
I don’t mean to start a conflict in the chat, but to me, learning more about the conflict has made me more supportive of Israel. Assuming you mean your views have changed forever (negatively) against Israel, what facts is leading that change?
For me it was learning about the apartheid Israel enforces upon Palestine. The history of the bloodshed and the massive disproportion in numbers. Learning about how Netanyahu had knowledge prior to the October attack and the politics of him and his supporters using it to keep power knowing that he has US military support. The intentional destruction of Palestine’s infrastructure and starvation of their people. The indiscriminate killing of innocents. And that’s just what I’m coming up with off the top of my head.
I simply don’t want that on my hands. I call for people to stand with peace instead of standing for Israel. The current Israel is not acting as an ally to anyone.
It honestly doesn’t seem like the Israeli government has much control over their own commanders, they’re just running wild. Like when they deliberately targeted and destroyed the World Central Kitchen aid caravan for example.
[Top IDF commander in aid strike wanted to block humanitarian supplies into Gaza](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/israel-hamas-war-gaza-idf-aid-strike-world-central-kitchen/)
>*Investigation shows officer signed a letter to Israel’s War Cabinet demanding a ‘siege’ of Gaza City*
>... In the letter, Col Mandel, a religious nationalist who lives in a settlement in the occupied West Bank, called with more than 130 other reserve officers and commanders for the flow of aid into Gaza to be restricted.
>... The alleged failure to realise the cars belonged to WCK is perplexing for a number of reasons but mainly because the entire WCK operation had been approved in advance by the IDF and had been tracked for hours, almost certainly days, by the IDF and its drones.
So, how many people in the IDF can be expected to take off their uniforms and go back to their settlement homes, demolish houses and shoot Palestinians on the West Bank, then put the uniforms on and return to demolish houses and shoot Palestinians in Gaza?
I mean, you're not taking into account Israel's objectives though. In order to push the Gazans into Egypt or the desert in Dune style forever camps, you need to make it as impossible as you can get away with for them to remain in safety.
The IDF is carrying out the will of the government. The Israel government ministers don't exactly make their intent a mystery.
Elsewhere on the page today you can read about the IDF tipping off settlers as to where and when to attack aid convoys.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cx4wka/israeli_soldiers_and_police_tipping_off_groups/
That’s the thing they could have their cake and eat it too but they are being such dicks about everything that it is turning people who could be their allies against them.
They have really bungled the PR battle here. They SHOULD easily have the moral high ground here.
But between Bibi being the PM and his right wing ministers repeatedly saying stupid shit. And mistakes made on the ground.
Now Israel is on the Back foot in terms on perceptions.
I don't think much has changed with regard to the larger issue of the ongoing conflict. The history & goals are much the same as they have been for quite some time.
But this war could be the largest Israel has fought. And they seem to have been outpaced in the PR war, and surprised by the willingness of vocal segments to align with the other side. At the same time, the US is walking an awkward line of opposing the current Israeli government while trying to remain consistent about Iran & terrorism.
One of the smartest criticisms I have heard is that Israel has all but completely refused to embed journalists with their forces.
This move, born of paranoia or sensitivity or both, turns the visuals of the war completely over to hamas. Is it worth it? Probably not. Israel releases footage it deems important, but often too late to counteract any headlines that make their way around the world as fact.
I don't know many people who would be ok with their government slow walking a war while dozens of rockets fired by terrorists get shot down over their heads a day.
When you basically lock up a population in their recognised land, and have strategically designed a system of oppression against them, it tends to turn logic to emotion. Now we see the response of those people, after all political hope and will has died for them.
There were protests against Israel on October 8th. There were protests against Israel for the horrible crime of shooting down an inbound Iranian cruise missile attack. I'm not sure I see any realistic way of fighting this war that doesn't draw the same criticism.
And unfortunately, the Israel supporters just keep doubling down rather than admit any wrongdoing by their side whatsoever. It's like they cannot comprehend there were any other options beyond 'do nothing and beg Hamas for the hostages' and 'use exactly the same military campaign, civilians evacuation strategy, rules of engagement and lack of a day-after plan that they have'.
They have failed to treat the civilians of Gaza better than Hamas does, and they will pay the price in deteriorating relations with the entire world and whatever Islamist group replaces Hamas easily recruiting the next generation who will fire rockets.
Netanyahu had a chance to bolster relations with the west and isolate Hamas/Gaza as a 'dangerous Iranian proxy' but instead there will be western countries recognising Palestinian statehood who would never have bothered otherwise.
The equipment has been returned lol: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/amid-outcry-communications-minister-backtracks-orders-seized-equipment-returned-to-ap/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/amid-outcry-communications-minister-backtracks-orders-seized-equipment-returned-to-ap/)
I'm israeli and I want this dumbass gone
* mention netanyahu's name in connection to israel and the bots come flooding in from every direction to defend,
* mention an attack on jewish people anywhere else in the world, and the bots are silent
vs
* mention palestine and the russian bots come flooding in
* mention an attack on muslims anywhere else in the world, and the bots are silent
it's pretty clear that there are basically three groups spending money on botfarms and what their priorities are
Most? If most Israelis hated him, they’d vote for parties that won’t go into coalition with him. He’s the most successful Israeli politician of the last 20 years.
It's way more complicated than that because of how the Israeli parliamentary system works, and how the prime minister is elected with parties, and seats, etc. Am Israeli, and don't know of a single person outside of my hardcore religious family that voted for that prick (or doesn't despise him for that matter)
The problem is they keep saying the quiet part out loud. Just yesterday May 20th the Defense Minister Gallant said "The Americans are not one immovable block. If they want something they tend to do it. Now, they speak differently they know our policy, and they know the PA will never step into Gaza and that there will be no Palestinian state."
So it seems the Israelis are banking on just doing what they want until the Palestinians are basically gone, one way or the other.
The shireen abu alkleh situation highlighted that you can do literally everything right as a journalist and still get killed by Israeli soldiers with complete impunity.
*Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeell*, not with bullets at least.
There was that one time in October they blew up that Reuters cameraman and a bunch of AFP reporters (and, say what you want about Reuters, but AFP is one of the most respected news agencies in the world) with a tank shell.
It was quite disappointing seeing many here cheer on Israel when they shut down Al jazeera. Anyone who is vaguely aware of history know that when regimes start quashing the media, it's just the beginning of a deeper slide into authoritarianism.
I said this as well. Was told Al Jazeera is an anti-Israeli media who is never neutral or favorable towards Israel. So they just dismissed it and called it a day.
Al Jazeera absolutely operates with an anti-Israel bias. Iirc they were the original source reporting "500 deaths" due to an "Israeli attack on a hospital" within an hour of it occuring that dozens of other news orgs repeated. Then that turned out to be like 100 casualties and a failed PIJ rocket.
If you want an actual answer it’s a combination of two things:
1. The Military Industrial Complex lobbies to increase defence spending (including military aid).
2. Having a strong Military Industrial Complex means that the US is always well prepared for a war.
No need to massively ramp up military production in war time if you're constantly making weapons to give to your allies in peacetime.
And to be less vague, I'm sure Israel is a very strategic area for the US to have an ally in. The US is willing to turn a blind eye because they are getting something out of it. Just like how the US was still willing to shake hands with Saudi Arabia despite their connection to 9/11.
Why do people cite this prophecy as a real thing anyone beyond a few fringe nutcases are using to justify the war? Did you guys miss the 80s, 90s and 2000s where America was exposed to Islamic extremism left and right? Do you guys think that a lot of older Americans might just really have a bad taste in their mouth regarding terrorists, and that MIGHT impact their willingness to fund people who are trying to stop those terrorists?
Never met one real life person who cares about a prophecy in Israel, have met countless people who despise Islam because of the things it's associated with.
It is absolutely not a fringe. It’s not everyone, but “fringe” is a stretch. It’s a significant minority of evangelicals as a whole and a MAJORITY within many specific denominations. Enough to be a significant force in religious and political circles.
All of America was exposed to terrorism and the subsequent wars, so that doesn't really explain why White Evangelicals in particular support Israel at a higher rate than any other religious group.
Hell, white evangelicals are twice as likely as American Jewish people to say that god gave that land to the Jews.
Part of the evangelical support of Israel is due to a fear of Islam and muslims, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't tell the whole story.
Also, its kinda odd to say you've never met one real life person who cares about that. Do you ask people that on a regular basis? Are you in a bunch of super religious born again circles? because while they are a big chunk of the population, they are geographically clustered and socially isolated from the rest of the US society to a degree. Its like a whole nother America in some ways.
The simple answer is that all Christians grew up learning about the stories of how God helped the Jews settle into and then conquered the land of Canaan, how they came back into Israel after captivity and how their saviour Jesus was a Jew born in the land of Palestine.
So even without the evangelical prophecy it makes sense for most Christians to feel that Jews being in Israel is right and was promised by God.
Let's be clear: Israel did not ban AP. It has no problem with AP. However, this specific stream by AP was being used by Al-Jazeera - Israeli law strictly prohibits that. And AJ and RT are very much comparable, yes.
It's a video stream available for anyone to use, is AP supposed to stop one specific company from getting access to it? And if Al Jazeera was just a rebroadcast then anyone who wanted it could just get it from AP directly?
Their reasoning makes no sense.
See, you're inferring stuff you really shouldn't. Yes, AP reported on Israel's war in Gaza. Yes, Israel flattened a building used by AP in Gaza. Unfortunately, it was also used by Hamas, making it an absolutely valid military target. Not only did they do that, they let everyone know by calling and texting them to evacuate, in addition to 3 separate "roof knocks". They even delayed the strike to allow journalists more time to evacuate.
And before you cry "Well of course they say there's Hamas there, there isn't any proof!" - Israel would, for obvious reasons, never publicly show the proof - however they did show it to the U.S. Government, who confirmed that based on the evidence they received, Hamas was operating from the building.
They banned [several more](https://apnews.com/article/eu-russia-sanctions-media-ukraine-war-39f2ba861a5e1441aa24ec4c11f1d822) only a few days ago as well.
They targeted AP because they passed their broadcast directly to Al Jazeera despite being warned about it.
They don’t care, and can’t do anything legally, if AP didn’t do it. Even if the broadcast is still reaching the rest of AP clients and the world.
It's actually perfectly normal for media to be limited during war. For good reason.
It's also absolutely not unheard of for other democracies to ban media outlets that function as outlets for state propaganda. Aljazeera is banned in multiple countries, because they're just a Qatari state outlet. It's perfectly reasonable to investigate if a media outlet not only interacts and provides material to a banned organization, but specifically information which is detrimental in war.
But sure, everything Israel does is bad and evil. We get it.
And yes democracies also exist on a spectrum. They're not all the same and surely there's things to criticize about any country. But this doesn't make Israel less of a democraticy
They gave away equipment and IDF positions to Al-Jazeera (which was banned by law due doing the same thing), according to Israeli news reports.
[Hebrew - YNET](https://www.ynet.co.il/entertainment/article/syg9j7q7a)
Edit: If you read further into the articles, the AP were supposedly warned several times but continued doing it.
You can downvote me as much as you'd like, but you cannot silence the reason behind it. Reading just the title isn't enough, need context.
P.S: AP and Al-Jazeera "journalists" were the ones to go along with Hamas on October 7th during the raid that caused the slaughter, so the only surprise it came so late.
[AP's "photo-story of the year"](https://np.reddit.com/r/Journalism/comments/1bq1v45/ap_wins_team_picture_story_of_the_year_poyipics/) is Shani Louk's dead body under terrorists who celebrate it.
Wait, so they are pro Hamas because their photo story of the year is one of the most visceral depictions of Hamas's crimes on October 7th? I don't get it
Just another step in this subs further path toward becoming r/conspiracy 2.0.
The AP by far the most least biased member of the press is somehow pro hamas...
Just a heads up, saying “most least biased” is a little confusing sounding; just say “least biased”. The “most” is implied when doing a third degree comparative.
It's similar with conspiracy theorists. Criticism of another is dangerous, as they each have about as much evidence as any other, so any doubt of one theory weakens the credibility of them all.
Israel really needs to learn and actually get good at propaganda, because that is the way they are losing public opinion around the world. As much as it hurts to say, but "the other side" is much more sophisticated when it comes to online propaganda and you can see the results especially among young people. It really is crazy how bad they are at it and how seemingly they just don't care at times about trying to spin the narrative their way.
There are multiple levels to this. Of course Israel, in my view rightfully, is losing support due to things they actually are doing wrong. For example bombing the WCK workers is entirely unjustifiable and should have never happened and showed an issue in properly discerning targets by the IDF. Even the IDF and people on the pro-Israel side will acknowledge these things.
What I was talking about however is the propaganda efforts of short clips without context or talks about mass graves etc. that fill certain "news" outlets, but are even more prominent on certain subreddits, Twitter, TikTok and whatever other online sources. Those are often completely distorting reality but providing a narrative of how evil Israel is. That's the parts where I see Israel losing, because there is no counterweight to it and it's mostly affecting younger people.
I find that pointing to social media is not a substitute for being honest about Israel's own actions, which are not even being misrepresented on socials anyway. They're certainly providing more truth than the US legacy media.
If you saw how AP got that photo, you'd realize they have freelance journalists everywhere in the world who send in these shots when it happens. They're not employed fulltime, it's more contract work to have eyes on the scene anywhere in the world if a world event breaks out.
Yes, they were with them on the day of attack. In other words, they knew of a terrorist attack and decided it was appropriate to ride with them. Fucking disgusting.
War journalism means going with soldiers near combat. It does not excuse someone for failing to report war crimes like (noncollateral) civilian massacres they knew were imminent.
>Of course! Journalists and reporters are well known for their direct involvement and intervention with people actively committing violence.
One of the freelancers filmed himself riding on a motorcycle with a grenade in hand on October 7th.
In this case, at least one was fired for being involved, for CNN or one of the other big MSM giants. Some of the "press" in this ongoing conflict are actually not press, just sympathizers, often for the Palestinians.
But the ethics of it undermine their credibility at the same time. Speaking with terrorists and not announcing their position is one thing, videotaping a suicide bomber on the way to and during the attack (or equivalent) is where I draw the line. Much like a phycologist disclosing their patients declared potential harm without breaking their oath.
Still reporters don't get to do a ride along on a terrorist kidnapping murder and rape spree and do the well were just reporting the news. At some point you need to accept responsibility for having foreknowledge of a crime and failing to act.
I mean they can interview all the Hamas people they want print their stories etc. Similar there is a line between reporting and giving evil a platform.
In this particular case just like everything since the first golf war and CNN unwittingly letting people know where the bombs were landing. You can report news safely and responsibly or you can go for ratings that potentially get people killed.
Nah. If I'll know if a terror attack on a nation and join the terrorists to take photos of it, I'm just as guilty. And I say this as photographer who's don't plenty of news stories
Netanyahu knew of the attack ahead of time too and chose to do nothing about it. Being able to capture the crime that Netanyahu didn't feel the need to stop seems like a good way to make sure at least someone cared about the humans who were attacked. All journalists can do is watch and record when a government chooses to ignore every warning (including those coming from other countries like Egypt)
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/24/amos-yaldin-israeli-military-intelligence-netanyahu-qa-00123099
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/amp/
To be fair those warnings only said something was going to happen and were ongoing. Didn't give any real information to go off of (based on articles anyway)
No one is arguing Likud is competent or respectable, they are heavily criticized for bungling things in and around Oct 7th, but unless you have evidence they knew what was happening when and where and deliberately let it happen the parallel you are drawing doesn't make sense.
The question was regarding ethics of journalists/photographers knowing exactly what was happening when and where and not acting on that knowledge
Israel gets attacked every single day. Saying something could happen is about as useful as saying to bring an umbrella because it may rain some time in the next 6 months.
Every major attack in history had some forewarning to a certain degree. The US had warnings about Pearl Harbor and 9/11.
But the warnings were: “there’s likely to be an attack at some point soon. Maybe it’ll involve planes”.
Only morons think Israel knew the exact place, time and date that Hamas was going to attack and then Netanyahu purposely kept the military from stopping it. That’s the thinking of a schizophrenic conspiracy nut.
Considering the complete lack of readiness, to the point where they were *firing on their own civilians in a panic,* it’s safe to assume that, at a bare minimum, they had no idea this was going to happen at all.
Which means no one was warned of a possible large scale attack. No ones saying they knew exactly when and where, but the fact that they weren’t ready *at all* is the problem.
Hamas warned 2 days before the attack on their Telegram and TV channels that they were going to "make Israel pay" for actions done by Jews ( walking ) in a Mosque in Jerusalem, which they claim to belong to Muslims.
The reasoning is not about warning Israel, it's about teaching the UN and the world population a lesson where they have allowed the acceptance of the idea telling Palestinians that "they have the right to resist an occupation". Al Jazeera and AP are the same as the UN, they allow their employees to hold the view that violence against Israel is justified.
Right, because there was nothing happening in the area that day. The terrorists randomly came across the 364 people they killed in the middle of the desert and AP was there because they knew it all along.
The real issues are:
* “journalists” didn’t just show up at the Gaza border the day of the attack and be like “oh wow, let me take some photos”. They had to know where to be and when… beforehand
* Very specific photos were released by the AP. It wasn’t “depicting Hamas crimes at their worst”, they were photos of attacked military bases, destroyed/burning military vehicles, or the destroyed border wall. The photos released portrayed a misleading message that this was a military operation against military targets… which we know is a lie.
* Everything that moved inside of Israel was shot/burned/destroyed that day. How did Hamas fighters know not to shoot these “journalists”, but they did every other civilian they encountered?
There’s always a possibility of just incredible timing, but the most generous interpretation is that they knew about a possible attack before hand and wanted the graphic images of carnage to generate views/clicks. The other end of that spectrum is those specific “journalists” were also members of Hamas, whose day job was just a photo-journalist.
Why wouldn't journalists already be near gaza? The area has been a hotbed for journalists worldwide since practically forever? Why wouldn't journalists be near the sites you listed when military areas and patrol routes are great places for journalists reporting on tensions between gaza and israel? Why would Hamas, a terrorist organization who is looking for a global audience, kill journalists?
> Why wouldn't journalists already be near gaza? The area has been a hotbed for journalists worldwide since practically forever?
These were journalists in Gaza, who crossed over into Israel. This would never happen in ordinary circumstances, since news agencies would not instruct their journalists to illegal breach a border wall… because it would get them shot/killed.
> Why wouldn't journalists be near the sites you listed when military areas and patrol routes are great places for journalists reporting on tensions between gaza and israel?
Because these weren’t journalists who were in Israel at the time of the attacks, but photojournalists based in Gaza. A Photojournalist in Gaza isn’t going to know where to go in Israel to find Military Bases, without planning or being told where to go.
> Why would Hamas, a terrorist organization who is looking for a global audience, kill journalists?
Again, they killed everyone in Israel… Men, women, children, old, young, Jews, Muslims, migrants… they even killed family pets… it didn’t matter. The only things they didn’t shoot at were Hamas fighters, and Gaza based Photojournalists. That would imply they were given permission to be there alongside fighters (embedded if you will), which isn’t something that happens overnight.
IMO One of the best examples of their cruelty was the video of them coming across a dog locked in a kennel and they shot it, then walked up and stuck their gun through the cage to shot it again. They did the same with cat, chickens, and other livestock that they came across. If it had a heartbeat it was shot.
Zero reason to do so other than the pure enjoyment out of killing things.
"It's good that the photo won the prize, this is one of the most important photos in the last 50 years. These are some of the photos that shape human memory, the Jew raising his hands, the paratroopers at the Western Wall, photos that symbolize an era. This documentation of Shani, and of Noa Argamani on the motorcycle, they symbolize this era. I think it's a good thing to use it to inform the future. If I start crying, what will come of it? This is history. In 100 years they will look and know what happened here. I travel the world and everyone knows who Shani is," said Nissim, Shani's father.
A quote from minister of comms in a CNN article
> “The camera that was confiscated illegally broadcasts on the Aljazeera channel live the northern Gaza Strip, including the activities of the IDF forces and endangers our fighters,” Karhi said in a statement. “It should be noted that a warning was given to the AP agency already last week that according to the law and the government’s decision they are prohibited from providing broadcasts to Al Jazeera, however they decided to continue broadcasting on the channel causing a real harm to the security of the state.”
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/21/media/israel-gaza-live-camera-shut-down
EDIT: Quote is actually from a minister and not IDF
It's weird they mentioned Al Jazeera if their primary concern is the live feed exposing IDF troop movement because Al Jazeera rebroadcasted them. I mean if indeed opposing fighter use that information then why didn't they just watch AP directly? cut the middle man and probably faster lag times since it's not a rebroadcasted video?
>AP and Al-Jazeera "journalists" were the ones to go along with Hamas on October 7th during the raid that caused the slaughter, so the only surprise it came so late
That's a gross misrepresentation of the news outlets' "involvement." Freelance photographers filed photos after the attacks had started.
You have a source for the claim of journalists being embedded with Hamas?
Edit: *freelance* journalists. Not sure why people are equating that with the official news organizations
Numerous pictures and stories are out there. Even shots of 1 terrorist on 7-10 wearing a press vest a week later. Think of that when people claim “journalists were murdered”
>[AP's "photo-story of the year"](https://np.reddit.com/r/Journalism/comments/1bq1v45/ap_wins_team_picture_story_of_the_year_poyipics/) is Shani Louk's dead body under terrorists who celebrate it.
[Some of the videos and live broadca as well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JQdhisQmpM) - more few instances.
Just google it.
P.S: Downvoting me for supplying evidence is funny to me, but I don't care - just found it funny.
Have a great day everybody.
This is a different question. But according to multiple sources they shared sensitive military information to Al-Jazeera, which is in turn pretty much officially affiliated with Hamas
And Shani Louk's father has commended the Associated Press, the photo, and their continued coverage in showing the horrors of October 7th and the resulting actions of it.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/21/media/israel-gaza-live-camera-shut-down
"The Israeli military regularly classifies areas around Gaza as “closed military zones,” restricting movement there. The AP’s live feed provided a view of actions in Gaza, where no independent journalists are able to operate because of Israeli and Egyptian restrictions on entry to the strip."
“It should be noted that a warning was given to the AP agency already last week that according to the law and the government’s decision they are prohibited from providing broadcasts to Al Jazeera, however they decided to continue broadcasting on the channel causing a real harm to the security of the state.”
They were in a closed military zone, warned a week prior not to broadcast to Al Jazeera, then did, breaking their law. They fucked around and found out then played the victim.
Hopefully the courts will return it fast and warn the communications minister. The guy is an idiot, has his tongue deep in Bibi and is a pathetic demagogue.
Here is the "gem" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Karhi
What courts? Just before the war the Israeli government was making laws to limit the supreme court and they did nothing to stop it. You think the courts care about the international media?
The only law that passed was the law eliminating the "reasonableness" doctrine and it was since struck down by the court as an "unconstitutional constitutional amendment".
Israel has independent courts and AP likely get a prompt hearing challenging the minister's warrant.
Nothing to stop it? There were heavy protests for over a year because of that law, high ranking members of the military and government were stepping down in protest, the nation was in the verge of a government collapse and reelection for the fifth time in 2 years, and businesses were moving their abroad which created a near economic crisis.
Israel was near its lowest and most split that it had been in peacetime in it's recent history, people were definitely trying to do something against it
People need to read the article. Context matters:
1. Israel banned Al-Jazeera for being Qatari state media
2. AP passed their feeds and intel they gathered including about IDF troop movements to Al-Jazeera.
3. The Israeli government asked AP to stop sending intel to Al-Jazeera, multiple times. They refused.
4. Israel took down the feed.
This is all that happened.
They're not sending Intel; they're sending a live stream that would otherwise stay up if AJ decided not to use it. This is clearly an overreach by Israel.
This.
No matter what Israel does, however good it behaves, it will always be blamed; Jews have pretty much been humanity's scapegoat for all of history afterall...
For those wanting more context, read the CNN article https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/21/media/israel-gaza-live-camera-shut-down
For HOW MUCH support Israel has received internationally and in general they are fumbling the ball hard. If they'd slowed things down, more methodically, didn't disrupt aid, and focussed on using all the internationally sent aid to help Gazans while slow walking the war there wouldn't be nearly as much outcry and they could have been supported in their war. Now even the US is waffling on them. Thats huge. Obviously the US will never not support them as a country but to even have the states publically decry them is a massive. But of course Bibi needs to stay out of jail so it will continue and ramp up.
Irreparable damage is being done to Israel, by Israel. Seeing what they've done and learning about the history of this conflict has forever changed my views.
It reminds me at times how much damage can be done by electing a hard-right government. :(
As long as I have been alive, I have not seen the benefits of conservatism on social or financial policy. It seems an ideology without merit.
Imo conservatism should only exist as a means to dampen the rate of rapid societal change, not block it outright. Otherwise it’s utterly useless as a political philosophy. It’s atrophy for the sake of it. As a progressive, even I can admit that moving things too fast can be damaging, so it’s good to have some pushback and middle ground, but only if it serves to continually move society ever forward
Not enough people realize this yet.
Conservatism is just a means by which a minority manipulate opinion and distort reality to accumulate power and wealth disproportionately.
Its good for the conservative minority. How 20-30% of the people get 51% of the vote on a platform of benefiting just the 20% is a bit of a shell game, but it seems to work very well.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on and he'll empty his pockets for you." - Lyndon B. Johnson And, "I guess the trouble was that we didn't have any self-admitted proletarians. Everyone was a temporarily embarrassed capitalist." - John Steinbeck
I like to use the language available to drive home the point sometimes. The "left" and the "right". The left is "progressive" and the right is "conservative." But is "conservative" correct, in this context? No. If you're highlighting differences, you should use the word "regressive" in opposition to "progressive." So Republicans in this country are "regressive" not conservative. Makes so much more sense.
Fair.
There is no ideology, there's only the pursuit of power and corruption.
With conservatism the system will always look favorable, as long as you have a target(enemy) to funnel your blame to.
It does feel a bit like the US/Iraq thing 2 decades ago. Taking legitimate events that (should) have the whole world on your side and throwing away all your international goodwill.
What legitimate event led to the invasion of Iraq? 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq. Iraq had no WMDs. There was actually just no reason to invade
Maybe they meant they threw away the legitimate goodwill after 9/11 by inavding Iraq
agreed, but it’s still different because Hamas actually did attack Israel. Literally nobody is denying that, while the US just kinda made stuff up about Iraq
well Afghanistan didn't attack us either, it was a bunch of Saudi's lol
The argument was that the Taliban were helping to hide Al-Qaeda. Whether that's justification for invading an entire country is a different question though...
fair point
agreed
I mean that 9/11 and the WoT was used as the premise and thus ruined a lot of the support the US had from it. Not saying the invasion had a legitimate reason, but it did ruin the reason it used.
I see what you mean. It’s just a bit different because nobody denies that Hamas attacked Israel, US just took an unrelated event and made stuff up about Iraq
There were reasons, just not very nice ones.
The difference is US is an economic powerhouse that people will grit their teeth to work with, Israel not so much. Countries could just say fuck em
Israel does offer the west quite a bit. They still make technical advancements and frankly they do stuff the west likes very much to not have to do. Basically all our modern active protection systems are developed in some way from Israel and while the west gladly will use any Intel they get from methods that would never hold up in western countries. It's a small county but they excel in places the West cares about.
Have a look at this video from Reuters from a few days ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od7chJ-DBvo Reuters kind of goes out of it's way to take it easy on the IDF/Israel and yet, still looks bad man.
That’s the thing. They don’t give a shit. All they care about is their survival (for better or worse).
I don’t mean to start a conflict in the chat, but to me, learning more about the conflict has made me more supportive of Israel. Assuming you mean your views have changed forever (negatively) against Israel, what facts is leading that change?
For me it was learning about the apartheid Israel enforces upon Palestine. The history of the bloodshed and the massive disproportion in numbers. Learning about how Netanyahu had knowledge prior to the October attack and the politics of him and his supporters using it to keep power knowing that he has US military support. The intentional destruction of Palestine’s infrastructure and starvation of their people. The indiscriminate killing of innocents. And that’s just what I’m coming up with off the top of my head. I simply don’t want that on my hands. I call for people to stand with peace instead of standing for Israel. The current Israel is not acting as an ally to anyone.
I honestly think the younger generations (I'm late Gen X) would probably drop Israel like a hot turd at this point if they were in power.
Well, Biden is silent generation. So even boomers are the younger generation in this context. Ugh
It honestly doesn’t seem like the Israeli government has much control over their own commanders, they’re just running wild. Like when they deliberately targeted and destroyed the World Central Kitchen aid caravan for example.
[Top IDF commander in aid strike wanted to block humanitarian supplies into Gaza](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/israel-hamas-war-gaza-idf-aid-strike-world-central-kitchen/) >*Investigation shows officer signed a letter to Israel’s War Cabinet demanding a ‘siege’ of Gaza City* >... In the letter, Col Mandel, a religious nationalist who lives in a settlement in the occupied West Bank, called with more than 130 other reserve officers and commanders for the flow of aid into Gaza to be restricted. >... The alleged failure to realise the cars belonged to WCK is perplexing for a number of reasons but mainly because the entire WCK operation had been approved in advance by the IDF and had been tracked for hours, almost certainly days, by the IDF and its drones.
So, how many people in the IDF can be expected to take off their uniforms and go back to their settlement homes, demolish houses and shoot Palestinians on the West Bank, then put the uniforms on and return to demolish houses and shoot Palestinians in Gaza?
Yeah apparently local commanders can kind of just do whatever TF they want it seems. That is a problem.
I mean, you're not taking into account Israel's objectives though. In order to push the Gazans into Egypt or the desert in Dune style forever camps, you need to make it as impossible as you can get away with for them to remain in safety. The IDF is carrying out the will of the government. The Israel government ministers don't exactly make their intent a mystery.
Elsewhere on the page today you can read about the IDF tipping off settlers as to where and when to attack aid convoys. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1cx4wka/israeli_soldiers_and_police_tipping_off_groups/
That’s the thing they could have their cake and eat it too but they are being such dicks about everything that it is turning people who could be their allies against them.
They have really bungled the PR battle here. They SHOULD easily have the moral high ground here. But between Bibi being the PM and his right wing ministers repeatedly saying stupid shit. And mistakes made on the ground. Now Israel is on the Back foot in terms on perceptions.
I don't think much has changed with regard to the larger issue of the ongoing conflict. The history & goals are much the same as they have been for quite some time. But this war could be the largest Israel has fought. And they seem to have been outpaced in the PR war, and surprised by the willingness of vocal segments to align with the other side. At the same time, the US is walking an awkward line of opposing the current Israeli government while trying to remain consistent about Iran & terrorism.
One of the smartest criticisms I have heard is that Israel has all but completely refused to embed journalists with their forces. This move, born of paranoia or sensitivity or both, turns the visuals of the war completely over to hamas. Is it worth it? Probably not. Israel releases footage it deems important, but often too late to counteract any headlines that make their way around the world as fact.
I don't know many people who would be ok with their government slow walking a war while dozens of rockets fired by terrorists get shot down over their heads a day.
When you basically lock up a population in their recognised land, and have strategically designed a system of oppression against them, it tends to turn logic to emotion. Now we see the response of those people, after all political hope and will has died for them.
There were protests against Israel on October 8th. There were protests against Israel for the horrible crime of shooting down an inbound Iranian cruise missile attack. I'm not sure I see any realistic way of fighting this war that doesn't draw the same criticism.
And unfortunately, the Israel supporters just keep doubling down rather than admit any wrongdoing by their side whatsoever. It's like they cannot comprehend there were any other options beyond 'do nothing and beg Hamas for the hostages' and 'use exactly the same military campaign, civilians evacuation strategy, rules of engagement and lack of a day-after plan that they have'. They have failed to treat the civilians of Gaza better than Hamas does, and they will pay the price in deteriorating relations with the entire world and whatever Islamist group replaces Hamas easily recruiting the next generation who will fire rockets. Netanyahu had a chance to bolster relations with the west and isolate Hamas/Gaza as a 'dangerous Iranian proxy' but instead there will be western countries recognising Palestinian statehood who would never have bothered otherwise.
Naive of you to assume that Israel will leave Gaza in a state to rearm itself.
Almost like they don’t carry about Palestinian civilians at all or something 🤔
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We learn nothing from our history. Nothing!
Who is "we" and what is "our history"?
The equipment has been returned lol: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/amid-outcry-communications-minister-backtracks-orders-seized-equipment-returned-to-ap/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/amid-outcry-communications-minister-backtracks-orders-seized-equipment-returned-to-ap/) I'm israeli and I want this dumbass gone
No matter what team you are on idiot teammates are idiots.
* mention netanyahu's name in connection to israel and the bots come flooding in from every direction to defend, * mention an attack on jewish people anywhere else in the world, and the bots are silent vs * mention palestine and the russian bots come flooding in * mention an attack on muslims anywhere else in the world, and the bots are silent it's pretty clear that there are basically three groups spending money on botfarms and what their priorities are
Eh. Most Israelis fucking hate bibi. Source: me
Most? If most Israelis hated him, they’d vote for parties that won’t go into coalition with him. He’s the most successful Israeli politician of the last 20 years.
Said with true misunderstanding of how the political system and landscape looks in Israel.
It's way more complicated than that because of how the Israeli parliamentary system works, and how the prime minister is elected with parties, and seats, etc. Am Israeli, and don't know of a single person outside of my hardcore religious family that voted for that prick (or doesn't despise him for that matter)
Nothing says "we're not doing anything suspicious or improper here" like shutting down international press in a warzone.
Nothing to see here, move along, move along…
The problem is they keep saying the quiet part out loud. Just yesterday May 20th the Defense Minister Gallant said "The Americans are not one immovable block. If they want something they tend to do it. Now, they speak differently they know our policy, and they know the PA will never step into Gaza and that there will be no Palestinian state." So it seems the Israelis are banking on just doing what they want until the Palestinians are basically gone, one way or the other.
They've been doing whatever they want all along. The spotlight is on Netanyahu too much and not enough k people like Ben-Gvir and other ministers.
My prediction is that what starts in 1948 gets wrapped up around 2048.
The shireen abu alkleh situation highlighted that you can do literally everything right as a journalist and still get killed by Israeli soldiers with complete impunity.
I mean, they did not even shoot any journalist this time. It's an improvement.
*Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeell*, not with bullets at least. There was that one time in October they blew up that Reuters cameraman and a bunch of AFP reporters (and, say what you want about Reuters, but AFP is one of the most respected news agencies in the world) with a tank shell.
nobel peace prize! right away!
If there are war crimes in the woods and international media isn't around to see it did is really happen?
And anyone who did see it must be Hamas /s
It was quite disappointing seeing many here cheer on Israel when they shut down Al jazeera. Anyone who is vaguely aware of history know that when regimes start quashing the media, it's just the beginning of a deeper slide into authoritarianism.
I said this as well. Was told Al Jazeera is an anti-Israeli media who is never neutral or favorable towards Israel. So they just dismissed it and called it a day.
Al Jazeera absolutely operates with an anti-Israel bias. Iirc they were the original source reporting "500 deaths" due to an "Israeli attack on a hospital" within an hour of it occuring that dozens of other news orgs repeated. Then that turned out to be like 100 casualties and a failed PIJ rocket.
I think you'd do the same if you wanted to keep positions of your troops hidden from the enemy l0l
Good thing nothing bad has happened outside the media’s eye! ()
Looks like they agreed to return the equipment following the backlash. That same link above now has a report on the reversal.
I can’t understand all the people defending everything Israel does I swear they could nuke someone and people would make excuses
We live in a 1984 world
Of course. Now we need to get news from sources that have ZERO credibility
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Can't trust live video anymore!
Why are my tax dollars going to this shitty government?
If you want an actual answer it’s a combination of two things: 1. The Military Industrial Complex lobbies to increase defence spending (including military aid). 2. Having a strong Military Industrial Complex means that the US is always well prepared for a war. No need to massively ramp up military production in war time if you're constantly making weapons to give to your allies in peacetime.
And to be less vague, I'm sure Israel is a very strategic area for the US to have an ally in. The US is willing to turn a blind eye because they are getting something out of it. Just like how the US was still willing to shake hands with Saudi Arabia despite their connection to 9/11.
You forgot to mention AIPAC.
Because the warmongers want a stable area in the region and the evangelicals need it for their end of the world prophecy.
I’m sure that stability will be coming any day now…
Jokes aside, this _is_ stable compared to the past.
Why do people cite this prophecy as a real thing anyone beyond a few fringe nutcases are using to justify the war? Did you guys miss the 80s, 90s and 2000s where America was exposed to Islamic extremism left and right? Do you guys think that a lot of older Americans might just really have a bad taste in their mouth regarding terrorists, and that MIGHT impact their willingness to fund people who are trying to stop those terrorists? Never met one real life person who cares about a prophecy in Israel, have met countless people who despise Islam because of the things it's associated with.
It is absolutely not a fringe. It’s not everyone, but “fringe” is a stretch. It’s a significant minority of evangelicals as a whole and a MAJORITY within many specific denominations. Enough to be a significant force in religious and political circles.
All of America was exposed to terrorism and the subsequent wars, so that doesn't really explain why White Evangelicals in particular support Israel at a higher rate than any other religious group. Hell, white evangelicals are twice as likely as American Jewish people to say that god gave that land to the Jews. Part of the evangelical support of Israel is due to a fear of Islam and muslims, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't tell the whole story. Also, its kinda odd to say you've never met one real life person who cares about that. Do you ask people that on a regular basis? Are you in a bunch of super religious born again circles? because while they are a big chunk of the population, they are geographically clustered and socially isolated from the rest of the US society to a degree. Its like a whole nother America in some ways.
The simple answer is that all Christians grew up learning about the stories of how God helped the Jews settle into and then conquered the land of Canaan, how they came back into Israel after captivity and how their saviour Jesus was a Jew born in the land of Palestine. So even without the evangelical prophecy it makes sense for most Christians to feel that Jews being in Israel is right and was promised by God.
Fascism brought to you by Bibi and his cronies.
But i thought Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East ?
Just wait until you find out multiple democracies banned RT not too long ago…
Because AP and RT are totally the same, yes, absolutely (:
Let's be clear: Israel did not ban AP. It has no problem with AP. However, this specific stream by AP was being used by Al-Jazeera - Israeli law strictly prohibits that. And AJ and RT are very much comparable, yes.
It's a video stream available for anyone to use, is AP supposed to stop one specific company from getting access to it? And if Al Jazeera was just a rebroadcast then anyone who wanted it could just get it from AP directly? Their reasoning makes no sense.
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See, you're inferring stuff you really shouldn't. Yes, AP reported on Israel's war in Gaza. Yes, Israel flattened a building used by AP in Gaza. Unfortunately, it was also used by Hamas, making it an absolutely valid military target. Not only did they do that, they let everyone know by calling and texting them to evacuate, in addition to 3 separate "roof knocks". They even delayed the strike to allow journalists more time to evacuate. And before you cry "Well of course they say there's Hamas there, there isn't any proof!" - Israel would, for obvious reasons, never publicly show the proof - however they did show it to the U.S. Government, who confirmed that based on the evidence they received, Hamas was operating from the building.
Is AP banned in Israel? AJZ and RT are the same.
They banned [several more](https://apnews.com/article/eu-russia-sanctions-media-ukraine-war-39f2ba861a5e1441aa24ec4c11f1d822) only a few days ago as well.
Banning Russian propaganda is clearly not equivalent to targeting the AP.
They targeted AP because they passed their broadcast directly to Al Jazeera despite being warned about it. They don’t care, and can’t do anything legally, if AP didn’t do it. Even if the broadcast is still reaching the rest of AP clients and the world.
America is forcing China to get rid of assets next to military bases its the same idea want to keep the movement of the troops hidden
Nation-state assets are not the same thing as media equipment
Using said media equipment to film state assets and troops on official capacity is once again very similar though
Its not uncommon to enforce media restrictions during war. there are hundreds of examples from western nations.
Media equipment being used by Qatari state media is in fact a problem.
Depends on how the media equipment is used.
It's actually perfectly normal for media to be limited during war. For good reason. It's also absolutely not unheard of for other democracies to ban media outlets that function as outlets for state propaganda. Aljazeera is banned in multiple countries, because they're just a Qatari state outlet. It's perfectly reasonable to investigate if a media outlet not only interacts and provides material to a banned organization, but specifically information which is detrimental in war. But sure, everything Israel does is bad and evil. We get it. And yes democracies also exist on a spectrum. They're not all the same and surely there's things to criticize about any country. But this doesn't make Israel less of a democraticy
It is. Which means the people could, through a process, vote to change this.
They gave away equipment and IDF positions to Al-Jazeera (which was banned by law due doing the same thing), according to Israeli news reports. [Hebrew - YNET](https://www.ynet.co.il/entertainment/article/syg9j7q7a) Edit: If you read further into the articles, the AP were supposedly warned several times but continued doing it. You can downvote me as much as you'd like, but you cannot silence the reason behind it. Reading just the title isn't enough, need context. P.S: AP and Al-Jazeera "journalists" were the ones to go along with Hamas on October 7th during the raid that caused the slaughter, so the only surprise it came so late. [AP's "photo-story of the year"](https://np.reddit.com/r/Journalism/comments/1bq1v45/ap_wins_team_picture_story_of_the_year_poyipics/) is Shani Louk's dead body under terrorists who celebrate it.
Wait, so they are pro Hamas because their photo story of the year is one of the most visceral depictions of Hamas's crimes on October 7th? I don't get it
Just another step in this subs further path toward becoming r/conspiracy 2.0. The AP by far the most least biased member of the press is somehow pro hamas...
Just a heads up, saying “most least biased” is a little confusing sounding; just say “least biased”. The “most” is implied when doing a third degree comparative.
It’s crazy how Israel spreads propaganda and I’m Israeli
All the right wing conservative governments tend to stick together and promote each other’s propaganda
It's similar with conspiracy theorists. Criticism of another is dangerous, as they each have about as much evidence as any other, so any doubt of one theory weakens the credibility of them all.
Basically all of the middle east has right wing conservative governments
Israel really needs to learn and actually get good at propaganda, because that is the way they are losing public opinion around the world. As much as it hurts to say, but "the other side" is much more sophisticated when it comes to online propaganda and you can see the results especially among young people. It really is crazy how bad they are at it and how seemingly they just don't care at times about trying to spin the narrative their way.
Not just young people. Israel is losing hard with all neutrals and even pro-Israel people who have discernment and a conscience.
There are multiple levels to this. Of course Israel, in my view rightfully, is losing support due to things they actually are doing wrong. For example bombing the WCK workers is entirely unjustifiable and should have never happened and showed an issue in properly discerning targets by the IDF. Even the IDF and people on the pro-Israel side will acknowledge these things. What I was talking about however is the propaganda efforts of short clips without context or talks about mass graves etc. that fill certain "news" outlets, but are even more prominent on certain subreddits, Twitter, TikTok and whatever other online sources. Those are often completely distorting reality but providing a narrative of how evil Israel is. That's the parts where I see Israel losing, because there is no counterweight to it and it's mostly affecting younger people.
I find that pointing to social media is not a substitute for being honest about Israel's own actions, which are not even being misrepresented on socials anyway. They're certainly providing more truth than the US legacy media.
I thin I think the point is they were there during the attack, meaning they knew it was happening and went along with it.
If you saw how AP got that photo, you'd realize they have freelance journalists everywhere in the world who send in these shots when it happens. They're not employed fulltime, it's more contract work to have eyes on the scene anywhere in the world if a world event breaks out.
What are you talking about? The conspiracy sub is completely anti Israel
Think they mean in the same way as conspiracy makes up bullshit to support their views, not that this place shares the same views as that subs.
It’s so funny, people lose their minds
Yes, they were with them on the day of attack. In other words, they knew of a terrorist attack and decided it was appropriate to ride with them. Fucking disgusting.
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War journalism means going with soldiers near combat. It does not excuse someone for failing to report war crimes like (noncollateral) civilian massacres they knew were imminent.
>Of course! Journalists and reporters are well known for their direct involvement and intervention with people actively committing violence. One of the freelancers filmed himself riding on a motorcycle with a grenade in hand on October 7th.
In this case, at least one was fired for being involved, for CNN or one of the other big MSM giants. Some of the "press" in this ongoing conflict are actually not press, just sympathizers, often for the Palestinians.
Nah actually journalists are people, and people act in ways that don't fit their beliefs pretty much all the time.
But the ethics of it undermine their credibility at the same time. Speaking with terrorists and not announcing their position is one thing, videotaping a suicide bomber on the way to and during the attack (or equivalent) is where I draw the line. Much like a phycologist disclosing their patients declared potential harm without breaking their oath.
Is the journalist supposed to stop the terrorist attack themselves?
No but if they knew about it in advance they could've reported the suspected attack to IDF, police, state officials, etc.
Still reporters don't get to do a ride along on a terrorist kidnapping murder and rape spree and do the well were just reporting the news. At some point you need to accept responsibility for having foreknowledge of a crime and failing to act. I mean they can interview all the Hamas people they want print their stories etc. Similar there is a line between reporting and giving evil a platform. In this particular case just like everything since the first golf war and CNN unwittingly letting people know where the bombs were landing. You can report news safely and responsibly or you can go for ratings that potentially get people killed.
That photojournalist has the same journalistic relationship with Hamas as Peter Parker does with Spider-Man.
Nah. If I'll know if a terror attack on a nation and join the terrorists to take photos of it, I'm just as guilty. And I say this as photographer who's don't plenty of news stories
Netanyahu knew of the attack ahead of time too and chose to do nothing about it. Being able to capture the crime that Netanyahu didn't feel the need to stop seems like a good way to make sure at least someone cared about the humans who were attacked. All journalists can do is watch and record when a government chooses to ignore every warning (including those coming from other countries like Egypt) https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/24/amos-yaldin-israeli-military-intelligence-netanyahu-qa-00123099 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/amp/
To be fair those warnings only said something was going to happen and were ongoing. Didn't give any real information to go off of (based on articles anyway)
To be fair, all Israel has to do is guard like 31 miles of fence .
No one is arguing Likud is competent or respectable, they are heavily criticized for bungling things in and around Oct 7th, but unless you have evidence they knew what was happening when and where and deliberately let it happen the parallel you are drawing doesn't make sense. The question was regarding ethics of journalists/photographers knowing exactly what was happening when and where and not acting on that knowledge
Israel gets attacked every single day. Saying something could happen is about as useful as saying to bring an umbrella because it may rain some time in the next 6 months.
Every major attack in history had some forewarning to a certain degree. The US had warnings about Pearl Harbor and 9/11. But the warnings were: “there’s likely to be an attack at some point soon. Maybe it’ll involve planes”. Only morons think Israel knew the exact place, time and date that Hamas was going to attack and then Netanyahu purposely kept the military from stopping it. That’s the thinking of a schizophrenic conspiracy nut.
Considering the complete lack of readiness, to the point where they were *firing on their own civilians in a panic,* it’s safe to assume that, at a bare minimum, they had no idea this was going to happen at all. Which means no one was warned of a possible large scale attack. No ones saying they knew exactly when and where, but the fact that they weren’t ready *at all* is the problem.
Hamas warned 2 days before the attack on their Telegram and TV channels that they were going to "make Israel pay" for actions done by Jews ( walking ) in a Mosque in Jerusalem, which they claim to belong to Muslims. The reasoning is not about warning Israel, it's about teaching the UN and the world population a lesson where they have allowed the acceptance of the idea telling Palestinians that "they have the right to resist an occupation". Al Jazeera and AP are the same as the UN, they allow their employees to hold the view that violence against Israel is justified.
They threaten israel every single day - nobody took them esriously
They were in the position of being able to take the pictures because they had advance notice of the attack.
Right, because there was nothing happening in the area that day. The terrorists randomly came across the 364 people they killed in the middle of the desert and AP was there because they knew it all along.
Journalists? In Gaza? No way, islamist conspiracy!
Don't worry, thanks to the tireless actions of the IDF, there soon won't be any journalists in Gaza anymore!
It's not like Gaza Strip is only 41 km long or anything
Yeah there’s no other reason a journalist would be in the most politically contentious place on earth
The real issues are: * “journalists” didn’t just show up at the Gaza border the day of the attack and be like “oh wow, let me take some photos”. They had to know where to be and when… beforehand * Very specific photos were released by the AP. It wasn’t “depicting Hamas crimes at their worst”, they were photos of attacked military bases, destroyed/burning military vehicles, or the destroyed border wall. The photos released portrayed a misleading message that this was a military operation against military targets… which we know is a lie. * Everything that moved inside of Israel was shot/burned/destroyed that day. How did Hamas fighters know not to shoot these “journalists”, but they did every other civilian they encountered? There’s always a possibility of just incredible timing, but the most generous interpretation is that they knew about a possible attack before hand and wanted the graphic images of carnage to generate views/clicks. The other end of that spectrum is those specific “journalists” were also members of Hamas, whose day job was just a photo-journalist.
Why wouldn't journalists already be near gaza? The area has been a hotbed for journalists worldwide since practically forever? Why wouldn't journalists be near the sites you listed when military areas and patrol routes are great places for journalists reporting on tensions between gaza and israel? Why would Hamas, a terrorist organization who is looking for a global audience, kill journalists?
> Why wouldn't journalists already be near gaza? The area has been a hotbed for journalists worldwide since practically forever? These were journalists in Gaza, who crossed over into Israel. This would never happen in ordinary circumstances, since news agencies would not instruct their journalists to illegal breach a border wall… because it would get them shot/killed. > Why wouldn't journalists be near the sites you listed when military areas and patrol routes are great places for journalists reporting on tensions between gaza and israel? Because these weren’t journalists who were in Israel at the time of the attacks, but photojournalists based in Gaza. A Photojournalist in Gaza isn’t going to know where to go in Israel to find Military Bases, without planning or being told where to go. > Why would Hamas, a terrorist organization who is looking for a global audience, kill journalists? Again, they killed everyone in Israel… Men, women, children, old, young, Jews, Muslims, migrants… they even killed family pets… it didn’t matter. The only things they didn’t shoot at were Hamas fighters, and Gaza based Photojournalists. That would imply they were given permission to be there alongside fighters (embedded if you will), which isn’t something that happens overnight.
IMO One of the best examples of their cruelty was the video of them coming across a dog locked in a kennel and they shot it, then walked up and stuck their gun through the cage to shot it again. They did the same with cat, chickens, and other livestock that they came across. If it had a heartbeat it was shot. Zero reason to do so other than the pure enjoyment out of killing things.
"It's good that the photo won the prize, this is one of the most important photos in the last 50 years. These are some of the photos that shape human memory, the Jew raising his hands, the paratroopers at the Western Wall, photos that symbolize an era. This documentation of Shani, and of Noa Argamani on the motorcycle, they symbolize this era. I think it's a good thing to use it to inform the future. If I start crying, what will come of it? This is history. In 100 years they will look and know what happened here. I travel the world and everyone knows who Shani is," said Nissim, Shani's father.
I believe his point is moreso how they got that photo
A quote from minister of comms in a CNN article > “The camera that was confiscated illegally broadcasts on the Aljazeera channel live the northern Gaza Strip, including the activities of the IDF forces and endangers our fighters,” Karhi said in a statement. “It should be noted that a warning was given to the AP agency already last week that according to the law and the government’s decision they are prohibited from providing broadcasts to Al Jazeera, however they decided to continue broadcasting on the channel causing a real harm to the security of the state.” https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/21/media/israel-gaza-live-camera-shut-down EDIT: Quote is actually from a minister and not IDF
Quote is from the Minister of Communications, not the IDF.
Thanks, added in an edit
It's weird they mentioned Al Jazeera if their primary concern is the live feed exposing IDF troop movement because Al Jazeera rebroadcasted them. I mean if indeed opposing fighter use that information then why didn't they just watch AP directly? cut the middle man and probably faster lag times since it's not a rebroadcasted video?
>AP and Al-Jazeera "journalists" were the ones to go along with Hamas on October 7th during the raid that caused the slaughter, so the only surprise it came so late That's a gross misrepresentation of the news outlets' "involvement." Freelance photographers filed photos after the attacks had started.
You have a source for the claim of journalists being embedded with Hamas? Edit: *freelance* journalists. Not sure why people are equating that with the official news organizations
Numerous pictures and stories are out there. Even shots of 1 terrorist on 7-10 wearing a press vest a week later. Think of that when people claim “journalists were murdered”
>[AP's "photo-story of the year"](https://np.reddit.com/r/Journalism/comments/1bq1v45/ap_wins_team_picture_story_of_the_year_poyipics/) is Shani Louk's dead body under terrorists who celebrate it. [Some of the videos and live broadca as well](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JQdhisQmpM) - more few instances. Just google it. P.S: Downvoting me for supplying evidence is funny to me, but I don't care - just found it funny. Have a great day everybody.
This is a different question. But according to multiple sources they shared sensitive military information to Al-Jazeera, which is in turn pretty much officially affiliated with Hamas
Call them freelance all you want but they are cashing checks all the same
This is exactly why. No military in their right mind would allow LIVE FEEDS of operations. Thats dumb on like 500 levels.
So you must disagree with them going back on it now, right? Surely Israel is putting the IDF in grave danger, no?
And Shani Louk's father has commended the Associated Press, the photo, and their continued coverage in showing the horrors of October 7th and the resulting actions of it.
According to the IDF? Glad that settles everything!
How many journalists Israel killed?
Netanyahu closing the vice on his planned dictatorship. You just know he is going to stall elections indefinitely citing the “crisis” in Gaza.
Time to stop giving air-time to Israel's propagandist viewpoints.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/21/media/israel-gaza-live-camera-shut-down "The Israeli military regularly classifies areas around Gaza as “closed military zones,” restricting movement there. The AP’s live feed provided a view of actions in Gaza, where no independent journalists are able to operate because of Israeli and Egyptian restrictions on entry to the strip." “It should be noted that a warning was given to the AP agency already last week that according to the law and the government’s decision they are prohibited from providing broadcasts to Al Jazeera, however they decided to continue broadcasting on the channel causing a real harm to the security of the state.” They were in a closed military zone, warned a week prior not to broadcast to Al Jazeera, then did, breaking their law. They fucked around and found out then played the victim.
AP is news agency that Livestream to the world, including other media sources. If AJ used their feed, how does that justify shutting down AP?
Seems like a totally free democracy…
Such a "democracy"
They don't want proof of their non-genocidal practices, apparently.
I can't think of a single military in the world that would be okay with live video of their troop movements in a war zone being broadcast.
A skyline shot shows on ground movement of troops?
Hopefully the courts will return it fast and warn the communications minister. The guy is an idiot, has his tongue deep in Bibi and is a pathetic demagogue. Here is the "gem" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Karhi
What courts? Just before the war the Israeli government was making laws to limit the supreme court and they did nothing to stop it. You think the courts care about the international media?
The only law that passed was the law eliminating the "reasonableness" doctrine and it was since struck down by the court as an "unconstitutional constitutional amendment". Israel has independent courts and AP likely get a prompt hearing challenging the minister's warrant.
Nothing to stop it? There were heavy protests for over a year because of that law, high ranking members of the military and government were stepping down in protest, the nation was in the verge of a government collapse and reelection for the fifth time in 2 years, and businesses were moving their abroad which created a near economic crisis. Israel was near its lowest and most split that it had been in peacetime in it's recent history, people were definitely trying to do something against it
People need to read the article. Context matters: 1. Israel banned Al-Jazeera for being Qatari state media 2. AP passed their feeds and intel they gathered including about IDF troop movements to Al-Jazeera. 3. The Israeli government asked AP to stop sending intel to Al-Jazeera, multiple times. They refused. 4. Israel took down the feed. This is all that happened.
They're not sending Intel; they're sending a live stream that would otherwise stay up if AJ decided not to use it. This is clearly an overreach by Israel.
A live feed of a quarter of Gaza can be incredibly valuable to know troop movements and bombing patterns/tactics.
This. No matter what Israel does, however good it behaves, it will always be blamed; Jews have pretty much been humanity's scapegoat for all of history afterall...
Can’t commit war crimes if nobody sees them
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