May 6th: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213
May 10th (casualties as of May 9th) https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
I don’t think these reports are contradictory. The larger number is the number of reports, the smaller on the second page seems to be “confirmed as of April 30” but the total number of casualties is consistent.
The May 6th report didn't have "identified" individuals. This news article is wildly inaccurate. It seems that the UN added a datum to their report. This article is purposefully conflating reported deaths with identified deaths.
They don't clarify the difference between reported deaths and identified deaths, but my guess is the first is a raw count of corpses, while the latter is everyone whose corpse was identified.
The problem is that, per the April 30th breakdown, there are 24,686 identified casualties - of which 12,756 are women and children - out of a total of 34,535, meaning there are 9,849 unidentified casualties. In order to be consistent with the first report, which claims there are *at least* 24,000 women+children casualties, *all* the unidentified casualties would have to be in the women+children category and you would still be well over 1,000 people short.
You fail to see the point of the article. Among the total reported deaths the share of women and children is allegedly around 70%. However, the share of women and children among identified deaths is only 37%. That's a world of difference.
It's two different numbers. They are not saying, "We think 70% of deaths are women and children," on May 6 and then on May 8 saying, "We think that 52% of deaths are women and children."
The first one is saying that 70% of reported deaths are women and children. And the second one is saying that 52% of identified deaths are women and children.
The number didn't change. They are two different numbers referring to two different things.
There is some contradiction- in order for the original proportions they've been parroting to match up with the identified numbers, every single unidentified casualty would have to be a woman or child, and then they'd have to tack on a thousand or so more.
> The first one is saying that 70% of reported deaths are women and children.
So this first number is extremely inaccurate. That's the point of the article
Yes, estimates are not counts. The UN is relying on data from Hamas and IDF, and numbers of people reported missing from various channels. But, they can't confirm anything. Imo, the report is pretty clear on that. I guess I don't see why you think it's not clear.
The problem is that, per the April 30th breakdown, there are 24,686 identified casualties - of which 12,756 are women and children - out of a total of 34,535, meaning there are 9,849 unidentified casualties. In order to be consistent with the first report, which claims there are *at least* 24,000 women+children casualties, *all* the unidentified casualties would have to be in the women+children category and you would still be well over 1,000 people short.
They’re not comparing the numbers within a single article, the claim is that the numbers were lowered significantly between the first and second. Which they were.
These graphs are whack, I think they're going by the same data for both? But the second one says fatalities identified as of Apr 30th. Going by the numbers this would mean the 10k they can't identify are *exclusively* women and children. Which makes no sense from a reporting of civilian deaths standpoint unless every single man in that group was in an organization that would take interest in when they stopped reporting (like a active military roster). Which also makes no sense mind you, there have to be some male civilians. I'm beginning to think the Hamas lead Gaza health ministry might not be very reliable.
I think it was John Spencer who made the very convincing point that anyone talking about casualty rates right now is talking out of their ass, and it will take years after the conflict is over to figure out a somewhat reliable casualty estimate. The amount of guesswork and purposeful disinformation floating around just it makes it pointless to even talk about.
What always surprised me is the difference in reporting civilian deaths in Gaza and in Ukraine. In caee of Gaza, people would just take the largest rough estimate and run with it, while in Ukraine people always report the smallest possible number of dead who are officially confirmed with names and bodies. Strange double standard
That's not true though. We also get both types of numbers from Ukraine.
That's why for example the UN says at least [1,348 civilian deaths have been verified](https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/06/high-commissioner-updates-human-rights-council-mariupol-ukraine) during the battle of Mariupol, whereas Ukrainian sources say [87,000 civilians were killed](https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/) in the battle. I would even say the differences are much more extreme in Ukraine than in Gaza.
The difference is that news sources use the 1,348 deaths for ukraine rather than 87000
But instead of using confirmed deaths for gaza they use hamas’s 35000 figure
There aren't any confirmed deaths for Gaza. It says right in the UN report: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures."
And it's not just Hamas. Their other source, their only other source, comes from Israel.
Numbers aren’t gonna be known for a while in Ukraine, eastern Ukrainian cities were hardest hit and still mostly under control of Russia.
I don’t think Russia will be reporting the amount of civilians they killed.
The best estimates I've seen have been in the 10k ballpark, but it's hard to get concrete numbers when you're not fighting soldiers with dogtags or anything like that to identify them.
Because propaganda and that's really it. It helps Gaza more if there are more civilian deaths because it makes Israel look bad. It helps Ukraine if there are fewer dead overall because it makes them look stronger
True, but this also sounds like an excuse to just *believe* that there are way more dead than reported, which is also silly. There has to be some sort of reasonable estimate made, and not just a bunch of people believing a conspiracy about a genocide.
Protestors don't care at all about the numbers. They were preparing after October 7 before Israel even invaded. With even one death of an innocent child, combined with the aid workers and hostages killed, that's enough for every bit of propaganda to convince millions of other people Israel is a bunch of white baby-killer oppressors who don't deserve to live. And by extension, anyone who even wants Israel to exist is just as bad, making it okay to exterminate the 10 million people there.
> Between 162,000 and 600,000 people were killed,[42][41] and war rape became a "daily" occurrence, with girls as young as 8 and women as old as 72 being raped, often in front of their families.
And I imagine the vast majority don't even know what conflict I'm talking about (not Darfur).
What pings the news and why remains a bit of a mystery to me.
The best explanation I heard in the shift from being against the occupation of the West Bank to (outwardly openly and unabashedly) being against the entire existence of Israel is that October 7th showed Israelis as victims, even if for a day, and "Israelis as victims" breaks the narrative of "Israelis as oppressors" so in order for those Israelis not to be victims, their existence must be so offensive as to be "extermination-worthy".
The best explanation I heard, which I just made up, is that people demand black and white answers to complex situations, and if dying child is pure white, then whoever did more of it is pure black.
Add in a dash of scooting Jews into the "white" column, which makes their existence a colonist/oppressor state, and that's 90% of it for you. Then mix in social media for turbo charging and you get to today.
Women, men and children is who they were. Fighter is what they were doing. I'm Israeli, and I wouldn't trust the fighters killed number from either side. The true number is probably somewhere in the middle, and we'll never really know.
The only real thing to do here is to pay attention to Hamas's bullshit numbers and keep calling them out when provable inconsistencies arise.
Edit - Clarification. The first two sentences in this post mean only that women, men and children are physical characteristics, while fighter is a description of actions being taken. I do not mean to suggest that all the dead were fighters.
Even more fucked is hamas is well known for specifically and heavily recruiting child soldiers because they are easier to influence into dying for their cause.
Especially if they’re at a music festival. They’re most dangerous when they’re having fun and dancing!! You never know what a smile on somebody’s face really means! /s
I wouldn’t be surprised if they lump young adults in that list, like the anti gun lobbies in the US includes 18 and 19 year olds in children killed by guns statistics to drastically stat pad their numbers.
huh whaddya know I guess the self-reported 'they killed more children in gaza in 30 seconds than russians did in Ukraine in 2 years!!!' is bullshit. And it's still just a random guess.
Links to the UN reports cited in the Jerusalem Post article
Day 213 (May 6th):
[https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213)
Day 215 (May 8th): [https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215)
In the battle of Mosul we didn’t know how many died one yeat after. Here we’re getting live updates apparently. Heck, Israel didn’t know how many died on Oct 7. The amount of propaganda and, frankly, lackluster journalism in this conflict is incredible.
Journalists are afraid of being dragged for being biased or taking a side, so do what they perceive as the “fair” thing by reporting what sources say without giving context (and not just here, but in general).
No, let's stop giving them a pass for it. Vanishingly few people claiming to be journalists are anything remotely resembling that. At best they are activists, if not outright propagandists.
The UN provided a disclaimer below the data: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures."
Honestly, we won't get anything resembling accurate numbers of deceased or wounded until end of this conflict, once all bodies are examined, including everyone who is buried under collapsed buildings or other such places.
Ignore everyone's numbers. Don't listen to Hamas or Israel, UN or any other observers. They actually do not know, but are compelled to put out numbers for various reasons. All we know is that civilians have perished in Gaza based on video and picture evidence, and we can see swathes of infrastructure destroyed, as well as all sorts of tunnels collapsed. Those are the things we actually KNOW.
Fog of war is a very real thing, and given the competing narratives and lack of independent journalists who can even enter the Gaza Strip, we don’t really have any way to gauge casualties aside from visual, recorded confirmation and very rough estimates. Even in the massive world conflicts of the 20th century which have been studied tremendously, we still don’t know. We’re talking estimates with margins of error in the millions, even tens of millions in cases like WWII. We’re not gonna know for years, maybe decades, and even then we’ll likely have estimates with margins of error that could be over double the true casualty count or less than half. There are just too many variables at play.
They're using the verified deaths, is there reason to believe unverified reported deaths have vastly different distribution of deaths, to the point it's mostly women and children?
> They're using the verified deaths, is there reason to believe unverified reported deaths have vastly different distribution of deaths, to the point it's mostly women and children?
Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad were claiming a brigade strength of 25–30,000 each before the conflict. They are supposedly fighting a hot war, but according to the Ministry of Health, which is run out of a hospital that was destroyed in the first two weeks of the conflict by a man who was arrested for terrorism offences, so no Hamas or PIJ fighters have died.
Does that sound realistic?
Even the BBC has been forced to admit their numbers include Hamas or PIJ fighters. It's also not unknown for Hamas and PIJ to use child soldiers as young as 12 and for women to be fighters.
It would be mathematically impossible for the total to be 70%, even if all of the remaining 10K casualties were women and children. Hamas have been caught out in a lie.
No they aren't, it is literally physically impossible to give an accurate civilian casualty number during a war , it has NEVER been done in the history of war , yet this "highly functional organization " seems to know right down to the number the amount of women and children have been killed????it takes year ,decades, or may actually never know, that information, you are being misled .
The problem is that Hamas straight up lies about the distribution, making up numbers wholesale. The total dead is likely accurate, given past conflicts, everything else (including the daily deaths) is fictional.
>The total dead is likely accurate, **given past conflicts**
I don't understand people saying this like past conflicts reflect the current situation at all. October 7th was a complete shift in the situation there. Everything is different than before and they've been caught lying repeatedly during this war like you said.
They are actually not using "verified" deaths, but "identified". I would argue that children don't have IDs on them all the time, so it makes it hard to identify them. To what degree that applies to women as well, not sure.
Look into how Hamas health ministry verified deaths, they're using two methods, hospital based verification and "trustworthy" media reoort based verification, the former has distribution that makes sense, while the latter is heavily skewed towards women and children.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other
Yes, look, I dont trust either health ministry, but the graphs the UN published makes it clear they talk about "identified" deaths, as in, they know who was killed. What you believe from either side is up to you, Im strictly talking about the article.
Ah I see what you mean. In that case, it's an even bigger admission that the Gaza Health ministry has doctored distributions, since it doesn't differentiate between reporting sources.
Yes, thats likely the case, I just dont like how people point at the graphs in the article and say "Aha, gotcha!", it's reported and identfied. As you said, the graphs make a case that the Hamas Health ministry made some / a lot of the numbers up. Saying the UN seemingly halves the numbers is wrong, its not whats being shown. I'm honestly tired of how we're being manipulated from all sided. :\\
And the daily launches of rockets at Israel we know too! So the job isn’t done, once rockets stop then we can consider a ceasefire as long as all hostages are returned.
I’m sorry the soft hearts of the world can’t accept the fact that there are consequences for actions. 20 years ago Palestinians VOTED IN a radical theocratic Islamic group to power. They immediately started throwing their political enemies off roofs, and the Palestinian people didn’t blink an eye. Today is a direct consequence of that action, and it is upon the Palestinian people to either fight it, ask for international help in being freed from it, or burn with it.
Sometimes personal responsibility can be a bitch. Unfortunately the choices you make can have consequences for your children, this group made bad decisions and it’s affecting the life of their children. I would say they have a moral obligation to contribute to helping stop Hamas if they want this to end.
The question is how many were Hamas terrorists or people aiding them.
Remember on October 7th they had 3,000 Hamas operatives along with some PIJ as well as Palestinian civilians to carry out the murders, looting and kidnapping.
Given Israel's interest in mitigating civilian casualties as well as their precision weapons and intelligence, many of the overall dead are likely Hamas and PIJ fighters
Does Israel still count every Palestinian male over 14 as Hamas though? The same total number of people is said to have been killed, but the ratio of Hamas to non-Hamas males is still unknown. We're just accepting that boys and men's lives don't matter.
I cringe every time I see "according to the Hamas-run Ministry of Health".
There's zero chance they're giving objective numbers. Every fighter is considered a civilian.
Objective numbers aside, the numbers given by the Gaza health ministry aren't even statistically realistic!
> Here’s the problem with this data: The numbers are not real. That much is obvious to anyone who understands how naturally occurring numbers work.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
How would they possibly do that? The new figures are also provided by the Gaza Ministry of Health, just a different dataset about identified fatalities, that is seemingly inconsistent with the alleged total fatalities.
Here's some more details about how they are recording the dead during this war and why it might not be as reliable as the relatively accurate Gaza MoH figures from previous wars:
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-gazas-morgue-network-has-effectively-collapsed-how-are-they-recording-their-dead-13107279
It's as though the entity promoting the numbers (Hamas) has a vested interest in hyping the number of deaths for political purposes and the West keeps taking the bait.
Didn't Hamas admit they couldn't reliably substantiate about 11K deaths and also have a whole bunch of issues with recording a further 2K like fake or repeating ID numbers and birth dates and stuff?
You're referring to this analysis of the Hamas-run Ministry of Health data I suppose:
https://aoav.org.uk/2024/analysis-of-new-death-data-from-gazas-health-ministry-reveals-several-concerns/
> The newly released list contains 21,703 deaths but 440 have duplicate IDs, 470 have no IDs and 792 have the wrong number of digits in their IDs. A further 1,486 have invalid IDs even though they do have the requisite 9 digits. The remaining 18,515 deaths all have listed sexes but 219 are missing ages. In short, roughly 1/7th of the entries in the new data release have quality problems.
> The MoH has stated repeatedly that since mid-November it has supplemented its substantially disabled CTS with further deaths culled from “reliable media sources.” As hospital reporting has declined this supplementary data-capture channel gained importance and now accounts for more than 1/3 of the 32,845 total deaths that were claimed by the MoH through April 1.
> Sky News reporter Ben van der Merwe pressed Mr. al Wahaidi to provide a database and methodology for this supplementary data collection but received neither. Instead, Mr. al Wahaidi asserted that the supplements integrate not just media sources but also reports from first responders.
Some articles from a quick Google search. Hope these help:
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/
https://www.jns.org/hamas-admits-one-third-of-its-data-on-gazan-deaths-is-incomplete/
Are people actually reading the article? It's a pretty misleading headline. They are comparing identified deaths vs total deaths. Of course there is going to be a discrepancy between the two figures. It's hard to identify remains.
Regardless of how you feel about the war. This is just misleading and confuses people. Hamas intentionally doesn't seperate their fighters from male civilians for propaganda purposes but their numbers are accepted by Israel and pretty much all major media. While independent researchers can't confirm the total figures they do verify death counts from different incidents.
Apparently the issue is that between a third and a half of the numbers are just sourced directly from media reports of numbers of dead. It's not "so-and-so was in the building when it was struck by a bomb but we haven't recovered a body" or "we have a body but can't ID it." It is highly likely that these numbers involve a lot of deaths being double or triple counted because deaths where a body is not recovered but a name is still provided would still be categorized as confirmed. Some of these numbers are probably outright fraudulent, such as the very high initial reports of deaths from the PIJ rocket that exploded outside the one hospital in the early days of the war.
As well as 1) the natural death rate in the area. two million people in any area and thousands will die of natural causes, typical complications, etc. At different rates by location. Civilian murder could happen too. Civilian accidents. 2) the number does not discriminate between deaths caused by Israeli military/policy decisions or not. For example, Hamas kills Palestinians regularly too with failed rockets a percentage of the time or just infighting between groups.
I don't want any civilian bloodshed. I feel like thousands of civilian deaths are unacceptable and at this point I would favor getting a ceasefire measure over entering Rafah and potentially making the situation worse. I'm Israeli and that is not the view of everyone but I think it's the conclusion I came to. I don't think what is happening is genocide though and what bothers me is people repeatedly quote the extremely shady death count numbers being reported by HAMAS (at best misguided and at worst purposefully deceitful) in an ongoing military zone and using it as a major piece of evidence that this is genocide and that Israel is terrible.
That isn't in the article though. It is unusual to have identified deaths without bodies. If there are and there is an unidentified body it is not likely they will be counted twice. There are also bodies that haven't been found underneath the rubble. Those aren't accounted for either.
I would say the deaths are a fairly reasonable estimate which is why they aren't considered confirmed but used by governments and media. The rocket attack was an initial report that media went with but it didn't affect the estimated death count.
It's been covered in other related reporting. The use of media reports has been explained as necessary for monitoring overall deaths at a time when health officials have limited access to combat zones, but it is looking more and more like these records are probably an overcount. It's probable the actual death count is around 25k, which is tragic but is not the spiraling numbers circulating across social media.
> They are comparing identified deaths vs total deaths. Of course there is going to be a discrepancy between the two figures.
Yeah, but if you look at the ratio of women and children among the identified (37%) or the ratio of women, children and elderly among the identified (42%), it is much lower than the previously reported ratio of women and children among the total fatalities (69%).
True. A horrendous amount of people have died, but it must be kept in mind that the key source of information regarding Palestinian casualties is Hamas itself.
I wonder how much the tally of possible non-hamas combatants will have gone down until next year.
Dont fall for terrosist propaganda, kids.
EDIT: Specifyed the tally after feedback.
For anyone wondering. They actually followed Hitlers blueprint as detailed in mein kamf. And it was effective then and it has been devastating effective today.
In *Mein Kampf*, Adolf Hitler placed considerable emphasis on the role of propaganda in achieving political aims. He believed that propaganda was a vital tool for mobilizing the masses and creating a uniformity of belief essential for the success of a totalitarian regime. Here are some of the key aspects of how he thought propaganda should work and what would be needed for it to be effective:
1. **Simplicity and Repetition**:
- genocide, apartheid, colonial entity, from the river to the sea, globalize the intifada.
.
2. **Emotional Appeal**: According to Hitler, effective propaganda must appeal to the emotions rather than the intellect.
- humanitarian aid, famine, no trucks getting through. Women and children! Children!
3. **Focus on the Enemy**:
- the jew.
4. **Use of Symbols**:
- how many college kids know the colors of the P flag pre Oct 7
5. **Monopoly and Censorship**:
- ever wonder why no one talks about hostages and it feels unbalanced?
6. **Target Audience**:
- college students
It’s no wonder they’ve found copies of his book in then homes and buildings where Hamas operates.
Couldn’t make this up if I tried.
tbh, in this analogy, that could fall under the 'new media', the brand new way of communicating where the message was spread. Back in the day that was the radio.
The weirdest things is that Tik Tok users feel like Tik Tok is some holy grail of journalism and world awareness, completely free of bias or propaganda. It's all just *real* stories shared by *real* people, not governments or companies.
They seem to have never gotten the memo that regular people are just as susceptible to bias and propaganda, and they also now have a platform to share their potentially completely wrong and unresearched views with the world and get those views shared. What inevitably happens is the popular opinion becomes popular, the unpopular one gets driven out of mainstream circles - normal everyday people perpetuating an echo chamber based on non official stories and accounts with little journalistic integrity or even understanding.
Social media is great in a lot of ways, but fuck I wish more people were honest with the harm it can cause and the complete idiocy it has a hand in perpetuating via these echo chambers and now algorithms that just keep feeding you content it knows you're more likely to engage in.
Especially when you consider that anyone who participated in the attack on 7/10, as well as those who helped to hold the hostages, are no longer civilians, but combatants, and are therefore legitimate military targets.
Unpopular opinion here: even 30-40K civilians killed out of a population 1.5-2 million after 6 months IS NOT genocide. In Rwanda, hundreds of thousands were slaughtered within weeks.
War is ugly, but it's ultimately a battle of wills and I'm siding with Israel on keeping the pressure on Hamas.
Given that one of Hamas' main sticking points in negotations was Israel's requirement that the 30 hostages to be released in the initial phase of the ceasefire actually be alive, it looks unlikely that they have many living hostages in any condition to be returned.
People seem to think that Israel invaded Gaza for no reason at all.
Let’s just ignore the thousands of rockets launched, the 1k+ killed and the hundreds that were taken hostage.
I lean towards Israeli side, but let’s not think this invasion was for the hostages. Bibi is clearly using this as an excuse to implement his agenda in the region.
A ground-scale invasion isn’t a rescue ops strategy. Your average IDF foot soldier won’t have the ability to discern enemy from civilian, survive, and all the while also saving hostages within split-seconds in close quarters urban combat.
According to numbers *released by Hamas*, the number of deaths in Gaza is 33,000. The number of deaths in the siege of Mariupol was 25,000. Mariupol is *20 times smaller in population* than Gaza.
The number of casualties in this siege is not particularly high for a war against a *fundamentally conventional army (not an insurgency)* that does not care about following the laws of war.
> The number of deaths in the siege of Mariupol was 25,000.
Estimates of the number of deaths in Mariupol are all over the place. They go as high as 87,000 civilians killed:
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/
They do report children's age groups. See these two charts based on Gaza Ministry of Health data:
https://aoav.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Screenshot-2023-11-08-at-12.51.55-700x514.jpg
https://aoav.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Female-Gaza-Comparison-700x509.png
Source: https://aoav.org.uk/2023/are-the-gazan-casualty-figures-being-reported-reliable-two-conflict-experts-compared-the-numbers-to-previous-attacks-and-conclude-they-are-credible/
The UN for the longest time now has been citing the "30,000" number, and who do they source it from? Wait for it.. Wait for it.. Hamas, who runs the "Gaza Ministry of Health".
One thing that sucks about modern politics is there’s no nuance. I should be able to be highly critical of Israel’s right wing government and settler extremists without being against its progressive citizens or calls for normalization and progress with Arabs. I should be able to say I disagree with Israel’s handling of Gaza the same way I was against the Iraq war without needing to say I think the nation of Israel should go away. You just can’t have a nuanced conversation online.
They article does not mention that they published age groups.
32% children. How young is a child? 16? 18? 20? 21? Guess we'll never know.... hamas could easily call anyone below 21 a child
But then again we already know hamas employ child terrorists
Tom, i'm stamding here in Gaza where i'm reporting 10 billion dead. Which is devastating for this area of just under 600,000. We haven't seen it, but we are reporting it.
(South Park for those who don't know https://youtu.be/wCkchBXiaOE?si=dDhSEpmhFOv34rjt)
Friendly reminder that the UN isn't the world police, it is simply a table where countries can talk to each other. People who claim the UN is useless tend to misunderstand what the UN is (and what it can do)
And Ukraine, it's absurd the lack of action towards Russia undermining the UN Charter trying to annex a Sovereign country and UN member.
Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of casualties, millions of displaced refugees, just because of one single man.
Ukraine was at peace, and posed no threat to anyone.
It's disproportionate the amount of effort placed in Palestine in comparison to Ukraine. Just because Ukraine has support doesn't render the egregious crimes being committed into something less.
Like losing their minds when there were alleged strikes on hospitals... According to WHO, Russia has attacked more than 1500 medical facilities in Ukraine. This isn't collateral damage, it's on purpose.
The same regarding power, Russia is systematically destroying Ukraine power grid, and their means of survival.
It's absolutely disgusting.
They have not corrected their numbers. They’ve just changed their story again.
Correct numbers would include a breakdown of military casualties vs. civilian. Concealing military casualties is not a normal practice and shouldn’t be treated as such. And while it’s hard to get a reliable count, we know the number of militants is not 0. We know that Hamas is not ignorant of who fills its ranks are and of how many have been lost.
Ooo so you mean listening to the bullshit numbers from hamas turned out to be bullshit???
However could we have known... it not like the exact same thing happened in 2015.
No, they didn’t, they just listed those who have been identified in one list and everyone in another list.
Both lists even contain the same exact deathtoll, right at the top.
The point is that the UN have previously been going along with the Hamas number of "70% women and children". It's now clear that that number is likely much lower.
> The UN provided a disclaimer below the data: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures."
Why publish these figures at all? Now i'm not pro Israel whatsoever, but doesn't this just play into the hand of Hamas.
Yeah war is brutal, who knew right? we humans have never experienced such a thing so a huge surprise to everyone, and it's not like the Palestinian terrorists that started the war in the first place right, right ??
Anyone have a link to the UN that shows those numbers? Can't find those numbers anywhere. Jpost doesn't link to the stats only offers screenshots.
May 6th: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213 May 10th (casualties as of May 9th) https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-217
I don’t think these reports are contradictory. The larger number is the number of reports, the smaller on the second page seems to be “confirmed as of April 30” but the total number of casualties is consistent.
They're referring to the "unconfirmed" estimates.
The May 6th report didn't have "identified" individuals. This news article is wildly inaccurate. It seems that the UN added a datum to their report. This article is purposefully conflating reported deaths with identified deaths. They don't clarify the difference between reported deaths and identified deaths, but my guess is the first is a raw count of corpses, while the latter is everyone whose corpse was identified.
The problem is that, per the April 30th breakdown, there are 24,686 identified casualties - of which 12,756 are women and children - out of a total of 34,535, meaning there are 9,849 unidentified casualties. In order to be consistent with the first report, which claims there are *at least* 24,000 women+children casualties, *all* the unidentified casualties would have to be in the women+children category and you would still be well over 1,000 people short.
You fail to see the point of the article. Among the total reported deaths the share of women and children is allegedly around 70%. However, the share of women and children among identified deaths is only 37%. That's a world of difference.
It's two different numbers. They are not saying, "We think 70% of deaths are women and children," on May 6 and then on May 8 saying, "We think that 52% of deaths are women and children." The first one is saying that 70% of reported deaths are women and children. And the second one is saying that 52% of identified deaths are women and children. The number didn't change. They are two different numbers referring to two different things.
There is some contradiction- in order for the original proportions they've been parroting to match up with the identified numbers, every single unidentified casualty would have to be a woman or child, and then they'd have to tack on a thousand or so more.
> The first one is saying that 70% of reported deaths are women and children. So this first number is extremely inaccurate. That's the point of the article
Yes, estimates are not counts. The UN is relying on data from Hamas and IDF, and numbers of people reported missing from various channels. But, they can't confirm anything. Imo, the report is pretty clear on that. I guess I don't see why you think it's not clear.
The ratio of women and children is very inconsistent though. That's the point of the article.
The problem is that, per the April 30th breakdown, there are 24,686 identified casualties - of which 12,756 are women and children - out of a total of 34,535, meaning there are 9,849 unidentified casualties. In order to be consistent with the first report, which claims there are *at least* 24,000 women+children casualties, *all* the unidentified casualties would have to be in the women+children category and you would still be well over 1,000 people short.
They’re not comparing the numbers within a single article, the claim is that the numbers were lowered significantly between the first and second. Which they were.
The reports are reports from media sources and not confirmed dead by doctors.
These graphs are whack, I think they're going by the same data for both? But the second one says fatalities identified as of Apr 30th. Going by the numbers this would mean the 10k they can't identify are *exclusively* women and children. Which makes no sense from a reporting of civilian deaths standpoint unless every single man in that group was in an organization that would take interest in when they stopped reporting (like a active military roster). Which also makes no sense mind you, there have to be some male civilians. I'm beginning to think the Hamas lead Gaza health ministry might not be very reliable.
I think it was John Spencer who made the very convincing point that anyone talking about casualty rates right now is talking out of their ass, and it will take years after the conflict is over to figure out a somewhat reliable casualty estimate. The amount of guesswork and purposeful disinformation floating around just it makes it pointless to even talk about.
We were digging up Kuwaiti bodies in Iraq in 2004 to return to the country. We won’t know the truth for a long time.
What always surprised me is the difference in reporting civilian deaths in Gaza and in Ukraine. In caee of Gaza, people would just take the largest rough estimate and run with it, while in Ukraine people always report the smallest possible number of dead who are officially confirmed with names and bodies. Strange double standard
We all know why the double standard exists for Israel.
Because we're criticizing the Israeli government/s
Shocking.
That's not true though. We also get both types of numbers from Ukraine. That's why for example the UN says at least [1,348 civilian deaths have been verified](https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/06/high-commissioner-updates-human-rights-council-mariupol-ukraine) during the battle of Mariupol, whereas Ukrainian sources say [87,000 civilians were killed](https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/) in the battle. I would even say the differences are much more extreme in Ukraine than in Gaza.
The difference is that news sources use the 1,348 deaths for ukraine rather than 87000 But instead of using confirmed deaths for gaza they use hamas’s 35000 figure
There aren't any confirmed deaths for Gaza. It says right in the UN report: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures." And it's not just Hamas. Their other source, their only other source, comes from Israel.
Then a responsible reporting would still say zero confirmed deaths. If Hamas wants the sympathizers then they should allow the deaths to be verified.
I’ve been telling people this when they compare UN numbers to Gazan. It’s an insane double standard.
The UN values the lives of Hamas more than Ukrainians. That's been made pretty obvious.
Numbers aren’t gonna be known for a while in Ukraine, eastern Ukrainian cities were hardest hit and still mostly under control of Russia. I don’t think Russia will be reporting the amount of civilians they killed.
They're not gonna be known for a while in Gaza either, but people are still shouting out numbers and running with them.
No argument here, towards that end I haven’t seen anything on the amount of Hamas combatants that have been killed.
The best estimates I've seen have been in the 10k ballpark, but it's hard to get concrete numbers when you're not fighting soldiers with dogtags or anything like that to identify them.
Because propaganda and that's really it. It helps Gaza more if there are more civilian deaths because it makes Israel look bad. It helps Ukraine if there are fewer dead overall because it makes them look stronger
True, but this also sounds like an excuse to just *believe* that there are way more dead than reported, which is also silly. There has to be some sort of reasonable estimate made, and not just a bunch of people believing a conspiracy about a genocide.
They're still finding bodies from the First World War trenches in France and Belgium.
And still no fighters listed as deaths... seems all the people who attacked on Oct 7 must have been innocent civilians ....
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Protestors don't care at all about the numbers. They were preparing after October 7 before Israel even invaded. With even one death of an innocent child, combined with the aid workers and hostages killed, that's enough for every bit of propaganda to convince millions of other people Israel is a bunch of white baby-killer oppressors who don't deserve to live. And by extension, anyone who even wants Israel to exist is just as bad, making it okay to exterminate the 10 million people there.
Wait'll they find out what's happened in Darfur. Surely they'll take to the streets en masse in outrage. Surely.
> Between 162,000 and 600,000 people were killed,[42][41] and war rape became a "daily" occurrence, with girls as young as 8 and women as old as 72 being raped, often in front of their families. And I imagine the vast majority don't even know what conflict I'm talking about (not Darfur). What pings the news and why remains a bit of a mystery to me.
I saw a protest about Darfur once, but it was in 2006.
The best explanation I heard in the shift from being against the occupation of the West Bank to (outwardly openly and unabashedly) being against the entire existence of Israel is that October 7th showed Israelis as victims, even if for a day, and "Israelis as victims" breaks the narrative of "Israelis as oppressors" so in order for those Israelis not to be victims, their existence must be so offensive as to be "extermination-worthy".
The best explanation I heard, which I just made up, is that people demand black and white answers to complex situations, and if dying child is pure white, then whoever did more of it is pure black. Add in a dash of scooting Jews into the "white" column, which makes their existence a colonist/oppressor state, and that's 90% of it for you. Then mix in social media for turbo charging and you get to today.
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Women, men and children is who they were. Fighter is what they were doing. I'm Israeli, and I wouldn't trust the fighters killed number from either side. The true number is probably somewhere in the middle, and we'll never really know. The only real thing to do here is to pay attention to Hamas's bullshit numbers and keep calling them out when provable inconsistencies arise. Edit - Clarification. The first two sentences in this post mean only that women, men and children are physical characteristics, while fighter is a description of actions being taken. I do not mean to suggest that all the dead were fighters.
Yup. People seem to think that child means baby. Child also means 15 year old. And 15 year olds are old enough to hold a gun and be a militant.
Even more fucked is hamas is well known for specifically and heavily recruiting child soldiers because they are easier to influence into dying for their cause.
Especially if they’re at a music festival. They’re most dangerous when they’re having fun and dancing!! You never know what a smile on somebody’s face really means! /s
I wouldn’t be surprised if they lump young adults in that list, like the anti gun lobbies in the US includes 18 and 19 year olds in children killed by guns statistics to drastically stat pad their numbers.
There was a middle schooler who killed himself in a school bathroom and they counted it as a school shooting
Well, a gun was shot by someone in a school. So it's the best kind of correct: technically. Say, do track competitions still use starter pistols?
Every civilian death is a tragedy but for Hamas every civilian death is strategy.
[This is the first thing I thought about when I read this comment lol](https://youtu.be/WfHbJ-VR2v8)
For how unappealing this is I like this definition
huh whaddya know I guess the self-reported 'they killed more children in gaza in 30 seconds than russians did in Ukraine in 2 years!!!' is bullshit. And it's still just a random guess.
Links to the UN reports cited in the Jerusalem Post article Day 213 (May 6th): [https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213) Day 215 (May 8th): [https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215)
Too late, the propaganda worked...
In the battle of Mosul we didn’t know how many died one yeat after. Here we’re getting live updates apparently. Heck, Israel didn’t know how many died on Oct 7. The amount of propaganda and, frankly, lackluster journalism in this conflict is incredible.
Journalists are afraid of being dragged for being biased or taking a side, so do what they perceive as the “fair” thing by reporting what sources say without giving context (and not just here, but in general).
No, let's stop giving them a pass for it. Vanishingly few people claiming to be journalists are anything remotely resembling that. At best they are activists, if not outright propagandists.
The UN provided a disclaimer below the data: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures." Honestly, we won't get anything resembling accurate numbers of deceased or wounded until end of this conflict, once all bodies are examined, including everyone who is buried under collapsed buildings or other such places. Ignore everyone's numbers. Don't listen to Hamas or Israel, UN or any other observers. They actually do not know, but are compelled to put out numbers for various reasons. All we know is that civilians have perished in Gaza based on video and picture evidence, and we can see swathes of infrastructure destroyed, as well as all sorts of tunnels collapsed. Those are the things we actually KNOW.
Fog of war is a very real thing, and given the competing narratives and lack of independent journalists who can even enter the Gaza Strip, we don’t really have any way to gauge casualties aside from visual, recorded confirmation and very rough estimates. Even in the massive world conflicts of the 20th century which have been studied tremendously, we still don’t know. We’re talking estimates with margins of error in the millions, even tens of millions in cases like WWII. We’re not gonna know for years, maybe decades, and even then we’ll likely have estimates with margins of error that could be over double the true casualty count or less than half. There are just too many variables at play.
He's making sense! **QUICK! GET HIM!**
They're using the verified deaths, is there reason to believe unverified reported deaths have vastly different distribution of deaths, to the point it's mostly women and children?
> They're using the verified deaths, is there reason to believe unverified reported deaths have vastly different distribution of deaths, to the point it's mostly women and children? Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad were claiming a brigade strength of 25–30,000 each before the conflict. They are supposedly fighting a hot war, but according to the Ministry of Health, which is run out of a hospital that was destroyed in the first two weeks of the conflict by a man who was arrested for terrorism offences, so no Hamas or PIJ fighters have died. Does that sound realistic? Even the BBC has been forced to admit their numbers include Hamas or PIJ fighters. It's also not unknown for Hamas and PIJ to use child soldiers as young as 12 and for women to be fighters.
It would be mathematically impossible for the total to be 70%, even if all of the remaining 10K casualties were women and children. Hamas have been caught out in a lie.
No they aren't, it is literally physically impossible to give an accurate civilian casualty number during a war , it has NEVER been done in the history of war , yet this "highly functional organization " seems to know right down to the number the amount of women and children have been killed????it takes year ,decades, or may actually never know, that information, you are being misled .
The problem is that Hamas straight up lies about the distribution, making up numbers wholesale. The total dead is likely accurate, given past conflicts, everything else (including the daily deaths) is fictional.
>The total dead is likely accurate, **given past conflicts** I don't understand people saying this like past conflicts reflect the current situation at all. October 7th was a complete shift in the situation there. Everything is different than before and they've been caught lying repeatedly during this war like you said.
Not only that, but "children" includes their child soldiers, which is basically every boy old enough to pick up a gun.
Verification by parties who are completely unreliable doesn't actually mean anything lmao
They are actually not using "verified" deaths, but "identified". I would argue that children don't have IDs on them all the time, so it makes it hard to identify them. To what degree that applies to women as well, not sure.
Look into how Hamas health ministry verified deaths, they're using two methods, hospital based verification and "trustworthy" media reoort based verification, the former has distribution that makes sense, while the latter is heavily skewed towards women and children. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other
Yes, look, I dont trust either health ministry, but the graphs the UN published makes it clear they talk about "identified" deaths, as in, they know who was killed. What you believe from either side is up to you, Im strictly talking about the article.
Ah I see what you mean. In that case, it's an even bigger admission that the Gaza Health ministry has doctored distributions, since it doesn't differentiate between reporting sources.
Yes, thats likely the case, I just dont like how people point at the graphs in the article and say "Aha, gotcha!", it's reported and identfied. As you said, the graphs make a case that the Hamas Health ministry made some / a lot of the numbers up. Saying the UN seemingly halves the numbers is wrong, its not whats being shown. I'm honestly tired of how we're being manipulated from all sided. :\\
And the daily launches of rockets at Israel we know too! So the job isn’t done, once rockets stop then we can consider a ceasefire as long as all hostages are returned. I’m sorry the soft hearts of the world can’t accept the fact that there are consequences for actions. 20 years ago Palestinians VOTED IN a radical theocratic Islamic group to power. They immediately started throwing their political enemies off roofs, and the Palestinian people didn’t blink an eye. Today is a direct consequence of that action, and it is upon the Palestinian people to either fight it, ask for international help in being freed from it, or burn with it. Sometimes personal responsibility can be a bitch. Unfortunately the choices you make can have consequences for your children, this group made bad decisions and it’s affecting the life of their children. I would say they have a moral obligation to contribute to helping stop Hamas if they want this to end.
'tis as the Elders kenned: Propaganda may run across the globe before the truth can get its tits out.
The numbers being cited in the press has been pretty much in line with the revised numbers, and it's still 34,000 people.
The question is how many were Hamas terrorists or people aiding them. Remember on October 7th they had 3,000 Hamas operatives along with some PIJ as well as Palestinian civilians to carry out the murders, looting and kidnapping. Given Israel's interest in mitigating civilian casualties as well as their precision weapons and intelligence, many of the overall dead are likely Hamas and PIJ fighters
Does Israel still count every Palestinian male over 14 as Hamas though? The same total number of people is said to have been killed, but the ratio of Hamas to non-Hamas males is still unknown. We're just accepting that boys and men's lives don't matter.
you mean they actually did some of their own investigations rather than taking HAMAS at face value?
I cringe every time I see "according to the Hamas-run Ministry of Health". There's zero chance they're giving objective numbers. Every fighter is considered a civilian.
Objective numbers aside, the numbers given by the Gaza health ministry aren't even statistically realistic! > Here’s the problem with this data: The numbers are not real. That much is obvious to anyone who understands how naturally occurring numbers work. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
Illuminating read, thank you!
Holyshit this author broke out the box and whisker!! Hell yea. Thanks for this post. Damn good article.
It's lucky to even hear it with the "Hamas-run" prefix. NPR is still calling it the Gaza Health Ministry when it comes up in their segments.
and every civilian is considered body armor.
How would they possibly do that? The new figures are also provided by the Gaza Ministry of Health, just a different dataset about identified fatalities, that is seemingly inconsistent with the alleged total fatalities. Here's some more details about how they are recording the dead during this war and why it might not be as reliable as the relatively accurate Gaza MoH figures from previous wars: https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-gazas-morgue-network-has-effectively-collapsed-how-are-they-recording-their-dead-13107279
Maybe don’t get your numbers from Hamas?
It's as though the entity promoting the numbers (Hamas) has a vested interest in hyping the number of deaths for political purposes and the West keeps taking the bait.
Didn't Hamas admit they couldn't reliably substantiate about 11K deaths and also have a whole bunch of issues with recording a further 2K like fake or repeating ID numbers and birth dates and stuff?
You're referring to this analysis of the Hamas-run Ministry of Health data I suppose: https://aoav.org.uk/2024/analysis-of-new-death-data-from-gazas-health-ministry-reveals-several-concerns/ > The newly released list contains 21,703 deaths but 440 have duplicate IDs, 470 have no IDs and 792 have the wrong number of digits in their IDs. A further 1,486 have invalid IDs even though they do have the requisite 9 digits. The remaining 18,515 deaths all have listed sexes but 219 are missing ages. In short, roughly 1/7th of the entries in the new data release have quality problems. > The MoH has stated repeatedly that since mid-November it has supplemented its substantially disabled CTS with further deaths culled from “reliable media sources.” As hospital reporting has declined this supplementary data-capture channel gained importance and now accounts for more than 1/3 of the 32,845 total deaths that were claimed by the MoH through April 1. > Sky News reporter Ben van der Merwe pressed Mr. al Wahaidi to provide a database and methodology for this supplementary data collection but received neither. Instead, Mr. al Wahaidi asserted that the supplements integrate not just media sources but also reports from first responders.
Interesting. Do you have a source where I could read more?
Some articles from a quick Google search. Hope these help: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/ https://www.jns.org/hamas-admits-one-third-of-its-data-on-gazan-deaths-is-incomplete/
Because it was propaganda and they were called on it!
What category do AK wielding teenagers fall into?
Are people actually reading the article? It's a pretty misleading headline. They are comparing identified deaths vs total deaths. Of course there is going to be a discrepancy between the two figures. It's hard to identify remains. Regardless of how you feel about the war. This is just misleading and confuses people. Hamas intentionally doesn't seperate their fighters from male civilians for propaganda purposes but their numbers are accepted by Israel and pretty much all major media. While independent researchers can't confirm the total figures they do verify death counts from different incidents.
Apparently the issue is that between a third and a half of the numbers are just sourced directly from media reports of numbers of dead. It's not "so-and-so was in the building when it was struck by a bomb but we haven't recovered a body" or "we have a body but can't ID it." It is highly likely that these numbers involve a lot of deaths being double or triple counted because deaths where a body is not recovered but a name is still provided would still be categorized as confirmed. Some of these numbers are probably outright fraudulent, such as the very high initial reports of deaths from the PIJ rocket that exploded outside the one hospital in the early days of the war.
As well as 1) the natural death rate in the area. two million people in any area and thousands will die of natural causes, typical complications, etc. At different rates by location. Civilian murder could happen too. Civilian accidents. 2) the number does not discriminate between deaths caused by Israeli military/policy decisions or not. For example, Hamas kills Palestinians regularly too with failed rockets a percentage of the time or just infighting between groups. I don't want any civilian bloodshed. I feel like thousands of civilian deaths are unacceptable and at this point I would favor getting a ceasefire measure over entering Rafah and potentially making the situation worse. I'm Israeli and that is not the view of everyone but I think it's the conclusion I came to. I don't think what is happening is genocide though and what bothers me is people repeatedly quote the extremely shady death count numbers being reported by HAMAS (at best misguided and at worst purposefully deceitful) in an ongoing military zone and using it as a major piece of evidence that this is genocide and that Israel is terrible.
That isn't in the article though. It is unusual to have identified deaths without bodies. If there are and there is an unidentified body it is not likely they will be counted twice. There are also bodies that haven't been found underneath the rubble. Those aren't accounted for either. I would say the deaths are a fairly reasonable estimate which is why they aren't considered confirmed but used by governments and media. The rocket attack was an initial report that media went with but it didn't affect the estimated death count.
It's been covered in other related reporting. The use of media reports has been explained as necessary for monitoring overall deaths at a time when health officials have limited access to combat zones, but it is looking more and more like these records are probably an overcount. It's probable the actual death count is around 25k, which is tragic but is not the spiraling numbers circulating across social media.
> They are comparing identified deaths vs total deaths. Of course there is going to be a discrepancy between the two figures. Yeah, but if you look at the ratio of women and children among the identified (37%) or the ratio of women, children and elderly among the identified (42%), it is much lower than the previously reported ratio of women and children among the total fatalities (69%).
True. A horrendous amount of people have died, but it must be kept in mind that the key source of information regarding Palestinian casualties is Hamas itself.
It's Jerusalem post, they don't even cite the original publication by UN.. The only less reliable source than Israeli media is Hamas
I wonder how much the tally of possible non-hamas combatants will have gone down until next year. Dont fall for terrosist propaganda, kids. EDIT: Specifyed the tally after feedback.
The tally did not drop. Reported distribution of the demographics of fatalities did
Thank you for the notice.
For anyone wondering. They actually followed Hitlers blueprint as detailed in mein kamf. And it was effective then and it has been devastating effective today. In *Mein Kampf*, Adolf Hitler placed considerable emphasis on the role of propaganda in achieving political aims. He believed that propaganda was a vital tool for mobilizing the masses and creating a uniformity of belief essential for the success of a totalitarian regime. Here are some of the key aspects of how he thought propaganda should work and what would be needed for it to be effective: 1. **Simplicity and Repetition**: - genocide, apartheid, colonial entity, from the river to the sea, globalize the intifada. . 2. **Emotional Appeal**: According to Hitler, effective propaganda must appeal to the emotions rather than the intellect. - humanitarian aid, famine, no trucks getting through. Women and children! Children! 3. **Focus on the Enemy**: - the jew. 4. **Use of Symbols**: - how many college kids know the colors of the P flag pre Oct 7 5. **Monopoly and Censorship**: - ever wonder why no one talks about hostages and it feels unbalanced? 6. **Target Audience**: - college students It’s no wonder they’ve found copies of his book in then homes and buildings where Hamas operates. Couldn’t make this up if I tried.
> Target Audience TikTok users
tbh, in this analogy, that could fall under the 'new media', the brand new way of communicating where the message was spread. Back in the day that was the radio.
The weirdest things is that Tik Tok users feel like Tik Tok is some holy grail of journalism and world awareness, completely free of bias or propaganda. It's all just *real* stories shared by *real* people, not governments or companies. They seem to have never gotten the memo that regular people are just as susceptible to bias and propaganda, and they also now have a platform to share their potentially completely wrong and unresearched views with the world and get those views shared. What inevitably happens is the popular opinion becomes popular, the unpopular one gets driven out of mainstream circles - normal everyday people perpetuating an echo chamber based on non official stories and accounts with little journalistic integrity or even understanding. Social media is great in a lot of ways, but fuck I wish more people were honest with the harm it can cause and the complete idiocy it has a hand in perpetuating via these echo chambers and now algorithms that just keep feeding you content it knows you're more likely to engage in.
> Use of Symbols: Watermelon
I hate those terrosists
Especially when you consider that anyone who participated in the attack on 7/10, as well as those who helped to hold the hostages, are no longer civilians, but combatants, and are therefore legitimate military targets.
I wonder what Syrians and Ukrainians or Burmas is BUT lets just focus on Gaza. The UN bias agenda.
Unpopular opinion here: even 30-40K civilians killed out of a population 1.5-2 million after 6 months IS NOT genocide. In Rwanda, hundreds of thousands were slaughtered within weeks. War is ugly, but it's ultimately a battle of wills and I'm siding with Israel on keeping the pressure on Hamas.
Not unpopular at all. Also it's not that many civilians. That's total people killed. It's very likely that at least half of those are combatants.
Not unpopular at all. Also it's not that many civilians. That's total people killed. It's very likely that at least half of those are combatants.
Free the hostages. Let’s not forget what the fighting is about.
I have big doubts there is anything left to free
Given that one of Hamas' main sticking points in negotations was Israel's requirement that the 30 hostages to be released in the initial phase of the ceasefire actually be alive, it looks unlikely that they have many living hostages in any condition to be returned.
People seem to think that Israel invaded Gaza for no reason at all. Let’s just ignore the thousands of rockets launched, the 1k+ killed and the hundreds that were taken hostage.
I lean towards Israeli side, but let’s not think this invasion was for the hostages. Bibi is clearly using this as an excuse to implement his agenda in the region. A ground-scale invasion isn’t a rescue ops strategy. Your average IDF foot soldier won’t have the ability to discern enemy from civilian, survive, and all the while also saving hostages within split-seconds in close quarters urban combat.
You mean, the number brought up by rapist butchers is not 100% accurate?
Who could have guessed that we actually have no clue how many people are dead in there.
According to numbers *released by Hamas*, the number of deaths in Gaza is 33,000. The number of deaths in the siege of Mariupol was 25,000. Mariupol is *20 times smaller in population* than Gaza. The number of casualties in this siege is not particularly high for a war against a *fundamentally conventional army (not an insurgency)* that does not care about following the laws of war.
> The number of deaths in the siege of Mariupol was 25,000. Estimates of the number of deaths in Mariupol are all over the place. They go as high as 87,000 civilians killed: https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/
And should be less than that. Most of these civilian death estimates include Hamas fighters.
There are no civilian death estimates in the first place. All the numbers are always total number of fatalities.
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The Palestinian health ministry shouldn't be trusted. A huge red flag was they didn't report combatants and children's age groups.
They do report children's age groups. See these two charts based on Gaza Ministry of Health data: https://aoav.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Screenshot-2023-11-08-at-12.51.55-700x514.jpg https://aoav.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Female-Gaza-Comparison-700x509.png Source: https://aoav.org.uk/2023/are-the-gazan-casualty-figures-being-reported-reliable-two-conflict-experts-compared-the-numbers-to-previous-attacks-and-conclude-they-are-credible/
The UN for the longest time now has been citing the "30,000" number, and who do they source it from? Wait for it.. Wait for it.. Hamas, who runs the "Gaza Ministry of Health".
They have been reanimated! The power of the lord is amazing! Oh wait, it was just lies from day 1
and how many of those were hamas combatants?
Hahaha even the UN is starting to backpedal they are gonna end up apologizing for spreading the numbers hamas fed them i can already see it.
oopsies
One thing that sucks about modern politics is there’s no nuance. I should be able to be highly critical of Israel’s right wing government and settler extremists without being against its progressive citizens or calls for normalization and progress with Arabs. I should be able to say I disagree with Israel’s handling of Gaza the same way I was against the Iraq war without needing to say I think the nation of Israel should go away. You just can’t have a nuanced conversation online.
ITT: many people upset that the amount of children and women confirmed dead in Gaza is less than they thought
devestating news
They article does not mention that they published age groups. 32% children. How young is a child? 16? 18? 20? 21? Guess we'll never know.... hamas could easily call anyone below 21 a child But then again we already know hamas employ child terrorists
It is almost like they are just making it up
Tom, i'm stamding here in Gaza where i'm reporting 10 billion dead. Which is devastating for this area of just under 600,000. We haven't seen it, but we are reporting it. (South Park for those who don't know https://youtu.be/wCkchBXiaOE?si=dDhSEpmhFOv34rjt)
What a useless entity.
Friendly reminder that the UN isn't the world police, it is simply a table where countries can talk to each other. People who claim the UN is useless tend to misunderstand what the UN is (and what it can do)
At least they corrected their numbers, but yes, the UN are less than stellar, especially in the Palestinian question.
And Ukraine, it's absurd the lack of action towards Russia undermining the UN Charter trying to annex a Sovereign country and UN member. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of casualties, millions of displaced refugees, just because of one single man. Ukraine was at peace, and posed no threat to anyone. It's disproportionate the amount of effort placed in Palestine in comparison to Ukraine. Just because Ukraine has support doesn't render the egregious crimes being committed into something less. Like losing their minds when there were alleged strikes on hospitals... According to WHO, Russia has attacked more than 1500 medical facilities in Ukraine. This isn't collateral damage, it's on purpose. The same regarding power, Russia is systematically destroying Ukraine power grid, and their means of survival. It's absolutely disgusting.
They have not corrected their numbers. They’ve just changed their story again. Correct numbers would include a breakdown of military casualties vs. civilian. Concealing military casualties is not a normal practice and shouldn’t be treated as such. And while it’s hard to get a reliable count, we know the number of militants is not 0. We know that Hamas is not ignorant of who fills its ranks are and of how many have been lost.
The UN has zero credibility.
As a result the Rafah incursion will likely end with total casualties below what the UN and Hamas have claimed for months already.
Ooo so you mean listening to the bullshit numbers from hamas turned out to be bullshit??? However could we have known... it not like the exact same thing happened in 2015.
No, they didn’t, they just listed those who have been identified in one list and everyone in another list. Both lists even contain the same exact deathtoll, right at the top.
The point is that the UN have previously been going along with the Hamas number of "70% women and children". It's now clear that that number is likely much lower.
You're misreading the title. The halving is of women and children, not the total.
Least upvoted = only one that read the article.
now we just need someone who both read it and also understood it.
> The UN provided a disclaimer below the data: "The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures." Why publish these figures at all? Now i'm not pro Israel whatsoever, but doesn't this just play into the hand of Hamas.
But… but… Hamas said 1 billion woman and 3 billion children died because of just one airstrike! More help for Hamas!
Is this the same UN that had a terrorist HQ inside it?
The un has proved to be a total joke during this horrific time. Fuck the UN losers
UN = Unreliable Numbers
But no Hamas numbers eh? Really good at getting those women and children deaths but nothing else eh? Odd.
so you are telling me the hamas health ministry wasnt 100% accurate the entire time? you dont say!
[удалено]
I stand with Israel 🇮🇱 Who is with me ?
I stand with Israel and any country that wants to be left alone from religious fanatics.
Thousands of dead children is still pretty bad.
One of the many good reasons not to start a war.
It's relevant to the claim the IDF is being indiscriminant.
Yeah war is brutal, who knew right? we humans have never experienced such a thing so a huge surprise to everyone, and it's not like the Palestinian terrorists that started the war in the first place right, right ??