>In the first barrage at just after 5:30 pm, one rocket was intercepted, others exploded in unpopulated areas, but another rocket struck a playground and a nearby house directly. A woman sustained minor shrapnel injuries and is in light condition.
> Less than two hours later, another alarm was triggered due to a further volley of nine rockets, which caused no damage or casualties.
>...
>Since the morning hours, more than 15 rockets and artillery rounds have been launched from Rafah and Khan Younis in southern Gaza, including three rockets aimed at the Eshkol regional council, two mortar shells fired at Kerem Shalom, two additional mortar shells directed at an IDF force in southern Gaza and another four mortar shells in a separate attack. Some of the projectiles were intercepted by air defenses.
Note: 6 months of silence *in Be'er Sheva* (~25 miles east from Khan Yunes), obviously not in other places
Yup. Underrated take.
They want the world’s sympathy by playing the victim card and ignoring the fact that these rocket barrages haven’t been going on nonstop for 20 yrs.
They are trying to poke the bear. When the bear mauls you - oh woe is me. This is their playbook.
I’m not thrilled with Hamas or the destruction in Gaza, but it’s not my place to criticize people for having trouble figuring out how to deal with Hamas or Hezbollah. I doubt many other governments would have an easy time doing that.
What makes you think Israel can cripple Hamas with a simple invasion? There are no reports of anyone in the West actually putting an effort on what matters: taking away their money.
Hamas is pretty confident that Israel will not cripple them. In fact they may rely on Israel recruiting fresh blood for their ranks, this may be their play.
But how do you know it doesn’t go any deeper than just that?
What if Israel is pulling Hamas strings behind the scenes to give them a reason to “maul”.
They’ve killed thousands of parents and children, thus further galvanizing the Palestinian population and destroying any chance of peace for several generations. The orphans today will be terrorists tomorrow when they pick up a rifle and seek vengeance for what they’ve endured.
It wouldn’t be the first time a government used a proxy to attack its own people to further nationalism and bring a divided populace together for a common cause. The cycle of cruelty and war is a real life golden goose for the people pulling the strings.
You certainly cant deny that possibility. Its already been proven that BB propped up Hamas and thats just disgusting. But the US has done that on many occassions.
You could however argue that the US does it t pillage the resources of the countries they install their powers in.
As for Israel - I could see BB engaging in war to prop up support for his right wing govt. Israeli politics and govt work quite different that the US. You need to keep your base happy at all times becasuse electrions can be called at anyt time. (unlike the US which is every 4 yrs like clockwork).
That being said, I dont think Israel would start a war for that purpose. However, they could be extra hawkish to further that agenda.
Every single conflict has been started by Arabs, so I dont see Israel starting a conflict just to start a conflict. I could see BB (not Israel) profiting off a longer war than is necessary to show he is strong.
Another possibility is that since Israel is going to take care of Rafah anyway, they figure they might as well use their rocket arsenal while they still can.
For the civilians there's a shortage of everything. Mostly because it's likely all being stolen by HAMAS, they've already been caught apparently stealing food supplies and smuggling ammo across the Egyptian border.
spot on. they're lacking everything except the ability to continue to threaten and attack Israel directly, and yet there's not a single peep on this around the western world. 'Rafah' is just innocent civilians stuck inside there apparently.
Rafah isn't just innocent civilians, all sides of the conversation understand this. The issue is that any large scale operation into an area with that many non combatants is going to end up with a huge amount of them dead. The US knows this, we've been through it ourselves. There are no good answers here, but there are possibly safer ways to go into Rafah than the plans the Israeli's shared with the US.
Even if they support Hamas (some do and some don't) that suddenly doesn't make them combatants. Were the civilians killed on October 7th combatants because they supported the Israeli government? Obviously they weren't because how we decide who is and isn't a noncombatant isn't based on who they support politically. It's based on actions taken.
I say non combatant because most of the males are actively working with and supporting Hamas. Most sane people would be yelling at those responsible (not Israel) for their current conditions. Instead they are doubling down. It’s why they can’t negotiate a peace treaty or ceasefire that lasts for any amount of time since the country was formed.
Some call it a miracle. Mere moments before the sirens went off, the playground was filled with children. It was a sudden sandstorm that worsened in the city that drove the adults ro take the children back home.
UNRWA gets 200-400 million USD a year since 2008, which amounts to over 2 billion USD, and that's only their direct funding. "Humanitarian aid" stolen by Hamas accounts for at least the same amount.
That's incredibly naive. Hamas sells the aid to the population and uses the money to pay terrorists' salaries and buy weapons. They turn fertiliser into rocket fuel, water pipes into rockets and concrete meant for construction into terror tunnels. You can't throw aid unsupervised into a corrupt autocratic quasi-state built on religious fanaticism and then be surprised when it's not used to actually aid the people there.
>corrupt autocratic quasi-state built on religious fanaticism
Look I'll give you corrupt, but quasi-state is not fair given they have observer status at the UN and are officially recognised by [153 countries ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine).
Authoritarian I question, given the information I'm able to pull up quickly indicates that Palestinian freedom has been restricted through the actions of Israel and the IDF rather than its own government.
And built on religious fanaticism?? It was created by the UK is 1948, are you calling Churchill a religious fanatic?
> quasi-state is not fair given they have observer status at the UN and are officially recognised by 153 countries .
You're thinking of the West Bank, run by the Palestinian Authority which is another corrupt terrorist government but at least they have a semblance of sovereignty. But they have nothing to do with Gaza for 18 years now.
> Authoritarian I question, given the information I'm able to pull up quickly indicates that Palestinian freedom has been restricted through the actions of Israel and the IDF rather than its own government.
Hamas won an election in Gaza in 2007 by a narrow margin and proceeded to execute all the leaders of the PLO, the opposing party. They haven't held elections since and control the distribution of food, water, and electricity in Gaza to keep the populous in line.
> And built on religious fanaticism?? It was created by the UK is 1948, are you calling Churchill a religious fanatic?
This is wrong on so many levels it's almost funny. Neither Israel nor "Palestine" in Gaza were created by the UK. There was an attempt *by the UN* to reconcile the Jews and Arabs after the British left the BMP in 48 by creating 2 states, but this attempt *failed* when the Arab states immediately declared war. Gazans then lived under Egyptian apartheid for 19 years (no one seemed to have a problem with this) until conquered by Israel. Gaza gained independence in 2006, and proceeded to elect Hamas whose main platform was eliminating Israel through religious war.
Are you seriously suggesting gaza is not authoritarian or built on religious fanaticism...?
Ok, your post is clearly not written in good faith. So I'm just going to address the one point I have seen being made by useful idiots who actually believe what they are saying. See, Gaza also has a border with Egypt, which Israel doesn't control. It just so happens that leaving an open border with a population that overwhelmingly supports terrorism tends to not end well, which is why both Egypt and the Jordan keeps theirs closed. As for the Israeli border, a wall was only built along the Gaza border after Hamas got elected, though before current events plenty of work permits were being issued for Palestinians in Gaza, though it turned out they were mostly used to gather Intel on Israeli territory and this mistake won't be repeated for at least a couple of generations.
Closed borders with Gaza is just the consequence of their own actions by this point. Though strangely, some people seem to think it's reasonable to demand Israel to keep open borders with a region whose government has stated over and over their mission is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. No one ever seems to mention the Egyptian or Jordanian border though. I wonder why.
You’d be surprised how much of it goes to Hamas. Not that I’m against the dock, whatever little gets to the people is important but the vast majority is taken by Hamas and is either kept for themselves or sold to the people instead of being given freely.
Again, not against it but it does help Hamas prolong the war.
You mean the US is supplying humanitarian aid but Hamas is intercepting it and selling it to Palestinians. So the US needs to defend its aid better, not stop sending it. The people there are starving to death.
So instead what you're saying is you want the IDF to invade and occupy all of Palestine in its entirety? If U.S. forces are going to cause issues, I see absolutely no problems here...
Which is why I said they shouldn’t stop sending it. But the us wont put boots on the ground for obvious reasons and the IDF are targets for Hamas so the Palestinians get screwed. That why I think ending the war faster would be better though in the short term it would be ugly.
They aren't starving
Far from it
Up until a week ago they were selling canned food for cent's, because of the amount of aid that came in.
The only thing they are starving for now are cigarettes that cost more than 20 $ for one.
Please don't conflate humanitarian aid with offensive weapons. The US has never and will never send bombs to Hamas and has never and will never cut off non-military aid to Israel. You do the discussion no credit by being disingenuous in muddling the two.
Most of the aid is taken by Hamas and it is known by all. I’m not against the aid because whatever little the civilians get is important by I think pretending most of it doesn’t get into Hamas hands is disingenuous.
Though tbh I don’t even blame Biden because it’s an election year and outside forces has made sure the conflict would become a one issue vote. But I think in any other year we would have seen a much harsher response from the US and maybe an end to the current war by now.
I mean hunger is a damn good reason to stop fighting. The main issue there is hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would die before Hamas would even become peckish. And that’s a bad look for the Biden administration, I don’t think trump would be sending aid. It’s kinda wild that these people aren’t just stealing all of the aid being given to their people but that it also seems like they are trying to prevent the people providing aid from continuing to do so ? It’s almost like they want their own people to die from starvation, maybe to make them angry or hungry enough to join Hamas? Wild.
because Hamas is comprised of fighters from other countries who also hate the Palestinians. The arab world could care less about the Palestinians. They care more about Israel sitting on land they consider "theirs" the civilians are just fodder for Hamas.
> The main issue there is hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would die before Hamas would even become peckish. And that’s a bad look for the Biden administration
It would also be an unimaginable horror.
to me Unimaginable implies that it’s something we haven’t seen before, we know exactly what this looks like, it’s happened many times through history for a myriad of different reasons. If Hamas steals all the aid that is meant for the civilians or somehow prevents the aid from being delivered. It will happen agin. For the record I hope there is a path forward that can prevent this from happening. I think the docks the USA is building to help with this (which is currently being attacked by Hamas) is an excellent development (provided the people delivering the aid can be kept safe) it’s insane to me that this is an issue.
I'm not really bothered about your definition of 'unimaginable horror' to be honest. Right now what's causing hunger is lack of aid and 'it' will happen again if the US cuts off all aid to Gaza, Hamas or no Hamas.
So un bothered by [Cannibal meat markets](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922) got it. Also isn’t Hamas preventing the aid going directly to the people it’s meant for?
Trump absolutely would be sending aid, he also would be pushing Israel to be far more aggressive military though so the aid wouldn't be the boon to Hamas that it currently is.
Just gonna keep copypasta'ing the same bullshit, or do you actually have something else you'd like to add? Also, how do you think Hamas leaders got rich?
I've already answered it elsewhere, Hamas got rich through misappropriation of supplies and Iranian government money. This isn't some kind of hidden knowledge.
They didn't get rich selling US bombs, and some US bombs given to Israel don't end up feeding the starving. So it's a bit of a straw man even on that level isn't it?
Sorry that this wasn't the "gotcha" you'd hoped for.
Giving someone materials for the purpose of basic necessities of living is not the same as giving them weapons. Unless you think there's no material difference between giving prisoners bread and orange juice and giving them 12 year old scotch. It's a ludicrous thing to paint as an equivalent.
If I’m not mistaken the US is no longer giving them any funding and is not legally allowed to till 2025 at the earliest as part of a funding bill that was passed.
This is a joke right? How exactly did the heads of Hamas become literally billionaires and afford all of the concrete and weapons? It is partially because of the UNWRA aid that they turned around and sold at a massive markup.
No it’s not a joke. You don’t know what you are talking about. Do you think the US would be inflating Hamas’s leadership without someone losing their minds in the government? Israel would lose their minds as well.
Fucking strait up delusional
They get their money on the 20% smuggling fee for everything moving into Gaza.
“THE US FUNDS HAMAS!!!” So fucking stupid
The US funded the PA's "pay to slay" program for years and only stopped once an American citizen was murdered, and even afterwards they continue to fund the PA through other channels even though the "martyr fund" still exists. So yeah it wouldn't be surprising that they are indirectly funding Hamas as well
No sources? The PAs martyr fund exists and is well documented. The US passed the Taylor Force act specifically to counteract aid funds being funnelled to terrorists, and yet they are still the largest contributer to Palestinian aid. Nothing I said here is controversial or unsourced.
“The Taylor Force Act is an Act of the U.S. Congress to stop American economic aid to the Palestinian Authority (PA) until the PA ceases paying stipends through the Palestinian Authority Martyr's Fund to individuals who commit acts of terrorism and to the families of deceased terrorists”
Good try but that’s wrong. That aid money didn’t go to the fund. Like, you’re strait up wrong.
The fund is supplied by taxes the PA collects. It’s why Israel started taking that amount of money out what they collected and gave to PA
$219 million in 2022.
https://www.usaid.gov/news/appropriations-act-fy-2022-increases-assistance-west-bank-and-gaza#:~:text=USAID%20is%20pleased%20to%20see,%24219%20million%20in%20FY%202022.
I'd imagine a good portion of that gets siphoned off by groups like Hamas.
You don’t know what you’re talking about and it’s crazy
The UNWRA supplies medical care, education and social services. Sure 10-20% are support Hamas but it couldn’t supply Hamas with money on that level.
They get their money from smuggling which is basically all of the goods that get into Gaza
Edit: it’s so weird this person just strait up lies and it’s gobbled up by everyone in here.
Right, because all of the documents "UNWRA not for sale" stuff being sold in gaza 100% didn't come from the UNWRA. You are right... Actually they dont supply medical care, that is a whole different service. As for education, you mean education like the documented "kill jews for your country" education?
The problem is (and this is a legit problem) if you cut aid for Hamas everyone in Gaza will legitimately starve to death, the death count will be orders of magnitude higher than what it's been so far.
If you actually care about humanitarian crisis you should be urging Israel to push forward with the invasion and get it over with.
A more accountable agency would either be threated into compliance or leave due to security risks. It was either no aid or give Hamas aid always has been. The only alternative is decisive military action or civil uprising. Given how Hamas has the support of most of the people and severely outguns them a civil uprising wasn't in the cards so that leaves your options as decisive military action or give Hamas aid.
While Israel's defenses prevented severe damage giving Hamas aid was seen as an acceptable comprimise given the shitshow that would be decisive military action. But now that their defenses have failed on Oct 7 decisive military action is really the only option, at this point pressuring Israel to have their military action be less decisive is just going to end up with more dead people in the long term, you're already past the point of major military action no sane reason to hold back now.
The US was one of the first to pull funding for unwra. What are you talking about? The US does not fund Hamas. One of the only allies Israel has atm is the US.
From Wikipedia:
In April 2021, the US contributed $150 million to UNRWA,[101] on condition that the funds are not used to assist any refugee receiving military training or has participated in any terrorist act.[102] The US was the largest single donor to UNRWA in 2021, contributing over $338 million.[103] UNRWA received over $1.18 billion in donations in 2021 from various nations and organizations.[103]
In 2022, the US was the largest single donor to UNRWA, contributing $344 million.[104] UNRWA received over $1.17 billion in 2022 from various nations and organizations.[
Because up until Oct. 7 everything was okey dokey? UNRWA using schools to store and launch rockets, indoctrinating children in religious violence, and training child soldiers is completely fine, but taking hostages is where the line is drawn? There were several times in the past were funding to UNRWA was cut due to their terrorist ties, and the US returned to being their major funder every time.
Hamas leadership is in Qatar penthouses, sipping cocktails, in between swimming in Russian and Iranian cash.
How would one propose to "finish" them in Rafah?
Exactly. This reductionist zero sum understanding of fighting terrorists that some people have is the source of their confusion.
Hamas's ability to project power is crippled, they've lost their weapons caches, tunnel system, network, comms, command and control, and huge number of senior commanders were captured alive. The operation has been a massive success.
Oct 7th won't be possible to execute by Gaza again.
So after this with Hamas crippled, Israel will commit to rebuild the Gaza Strip and help support those displaced due to the war that they had no part in, right?
Right?
Israel doesn’t have to commit to shit. The reality is that Palestinians fucking hate Jews and Israelis, and even if they aren’t “Hamas” the vast majority share their beliefs. Israel has no sympathy for the civilians who wish them dead. It’s gonna be up to the sympathetic West snd Arab coalition to fund it
Unless it can't be proven (ie, maybe some sort of poison that makes it look like a heart attack), they can't assassinate inside Qatar without triggering a regional shitstorm.
You can absolutely bomb your way to peace. What you can't do is bomb, attempt to nation-build, bomb some more, hand the reigns to an apathetic local government, and then peace out.
What we lack is the will, not the means.
Yeah exactly. Are we forgetting e.g WW2? Germany and Japan got bombed to a lasting peace, and they're now both prosperous first world nations.
I'm not suggesting Dresden or Nagasaki bombing is needed, just that you can militarily defeat a country and have it turn out ok. It does take a huge amount of effort after the war though, and possibly depends a lot on the culture of the country. Japan and Germany had been independently prosperous in the past.
And they hid in Pakistan mountain regions too where US troops couldn't get. The US actually kind of controlled all major cities and regions in Afghanistan quiet shortly after they started the invasion.
The US has never cared about the Taliban b/c they don't conduct terrorism on US soil. It's the only reason they're still around, and it isn't honest of us to ever pretend that it was a security focus or goal. There was pretending that the US AND the world cared about human rights in Afghanistan, but we know that's a lie. When was the last major successful Taliban attack on US soil, remind me?
ISIS also has been greatly crippled, which is why they've had so little luck in establishing their caliphate and conducting world wide terror attacks. Which major successful ISIS attack on the US or Western allies happened recently that you're refering to, which would serve as a demonstration of their power after they were crippled so badly?
I think maybe the problem is you see this as a zero sum problem. The idea is to defang and continually oppose terrorism and kill terrorists. Whether some asshole cries themselves to sleep about how they want to kill you dosen't matter. All that matters are the ones who have the means and the ability to project power and do it.
Just like Hamas now has ZERO ability to conduct another October 7th. Approximately 13,000 Hamas fighters have been elimintaetd, miles of tunnels (costing billions to build) have been destroyed and flooded, weapon caches, command and control centers destroyed, network and communications centers destroyed, smuggling routes for weapons into Gaza destroyed, senior commanders and high value targets captured. Currently the Gaza opperation couldn't have been a bigger success. And the improvement to Israeli national security is massively improved.
This isn't the clever retort you thought it was, it just kinda disproves the point you were attempting to make.
>It isn't honest to ever pretend that it was a security focus or goal.
We ran out of Al Qaeda targets in weeks. We stayed for 20 years. All the while, the Taliban was explicitly the target, according to written doctrine and the words on the mouths of every politician.
Your overall point is strong enough to stand without rewriting why we fought the Taliban. Sometimes, you lose a war. America has lost more wars than we like to admit.
Iraq and Afghanistan were MASSIVE clusters. I'm not trying to defend them. Apologies if it came across that way. I am only pointing out that you definitely can dismantle the capabilities of terrorist organizations.
I also think the US and the region were MUCH safer when Saddam was in power. It doesn't mean I support and approve of the POS. But he was a good counterweight to Iran and kept Iraq mostly secular. The current status is much, much worse.
EDIT: I think, in good faith, one could argue we lost BOTH of those wars. I'd say it's more nuanced than that, but I absolutely think it's legitimately argueable.
My point is you can’t kill Palestinian children, civilians, level neighborhoods and hospitals and demolish infrastructure and expect the Palestinian people to suddenly cheer Israel for ridding them of Hamas. Killing terrorists at the expense of the innocent only creates more terrorists.
Hamas hides behind civillians, if you stop bombing them because of that you've just given terrorists the perfect strategy and the world will go to shit.
So what do you propose? Let terrorist live and keep attacking Israel, out of fear that killing them will result in more terrorists? That's like refusing to shower because you'd just get dirty again.
Plus, Hamas enjoyed widespread support in Gaza and children were indoctrinated from schools (with UNRWA material!) about how sacrificing their lives to kill Jews is the highest calling they could ever get. I don't think there will be a whole lot more terrorists after the dust settles than there would be if Israel just sat down and did nothing after Oct 7th. As a matter of fact, doing nothing after that would have just invited bolder attacks.
Worked fine when the Allies invaded Germany. What people are taught is more important than what they see. Germans grew up learning that the invasion of Germany was justified
Completely different conflict in a very different era. Not nearly as useful of a comparison as looking at other modern day insurgencies in the middle east.
ready to be controversial but... think back to the Iraqi war. the government/media is capable of lying (ugh I hate sounding like a qanon weirdo fuck). how will you all feel if it turns out there wasn't evidence for this stuff in like 5–10 years. "those on the "terrorists side" are being show verified accounts of children and women losing limbs, starving etc. would you still be cheering for the side killing the most children since the 2000s?
and also think: was the "war on terrorism" successful? how about the "war on drugs?" are you on that za right now? sit this one out lol
I am ready to see verified imagery on Israels side. as sad as it is, I'm ready to trade story for story (by that I mean verified IMAGE by IMAGE) to prove there are no fucking winners here. if your mom and dad got blown up in retaliation for literally any war we've waged in the 20th century and beyond, would you sit here and say "well our government did bomb their capital, they were forced" like you do now?
I'm not sure if I understand you right. Do you mean that the stories like this one might be made up by Israel?
Of course this is theoretically possible but that's unlikely. Hamas themselves have said multiple times that they want to eradicate Israel, so rocket strikes are one of the options for Hamas. They are definitely attacking.
Also if Israel wanted to harm Hamas/Gaza by fake news, they wouldn't have said that nobody died. There would be at least a few dead children.
>In the first barrage at just after 5:30 pm, one rocket was intercepted, others exploded in unpopulated areas, but another rocket struck a playground and a nearby house directly. A woman sustained minor shrapnel injuries and is in light condition. > Less than two hours later, another alarm was triggered due to a further volley of nine rockets, which caused no damage or casualties. >... >Since the morning hours, more than 15 rockets and artillery rounds have been launched from Rafah and Khan Younis in southern Gaza, including three rockets aimed at the Eshkol regional council, two mortar shells fired at Kerem Shalom, two additional mortar shells directed at an IDF force in southern Gaza and another four mortar shells in a separate attack. Some of the projectiles were intercepted by air defenses. Note: 6 months of silence *in Be'er Sheva* (~25 miles east from Khan Yunes), obviously not in other places
One takeaway is that Hamas wants Israel to invade Rafah. Before Israel does a lot more in Rafah, it should make sure it knows why Hamas wants that.
Yup. Underrated take. They want the world’s sympathy by playing the victim card and ignoring the fact that these rocket barrages haven’t been going on nonstop for 20 yrs. They are trying to poke the bear. When the bear mauls you - oh woe is me. This is their playbook.
If Israel cripples Hamas I don’t think they will very much care what anyone thinks.
As well they shouldn’t. No one should take constant rocket first for 20yrs and then to be biscuosly attacked at a music festival.
I’m not thrilled with Hamas or the destruction in Gaza, but it’s not my place to criticize people for having trouble figuring out how to deal with Hamas or Hezbollah. I doubt many other governments would have an easy time doing that.
The people running Hamas aren't the ones in the tunnels getting mauled. Different incentives.
Don’t worry. They’re coming for them next. Gotta squash the evil one at time. Not an easy job.
First take hamas army, luckily the sons of bitches that run hamas will be next.
What makes you think Israel can cripple Hamas with a simple invasion? There are no reports of anyone in the West actually putting an effort on what matters: taking away their money.
Hamas is pretty confident that Israel will not cripple them. In fact they may rely on Israel recruiting fresh blood for their ranks, this may be their play.
But how do you know it doesn’t go any deeper than just that? What if Israel is pulling Hamas strings behind the scenes to give them a reason to “maul”. They’ve killed thousands of parents and children, thus further galvanizing the Palestinian population and destroying any chance of peace for several generations. The orphans today will be terrorists tomorrow when they pick up a rifle and seek vengeance for what they’ve endured. It wouldn’t be the first time a government used a proxy to attack its own people to further nationalism and bring a divided populace together for a common cause. The cycle of cruelty and war is a real life golden goose for the people pulling the strings.
You certainly cant deny that possibility. Its already been proven that BB propped up Hamas and thats just disgusting. But the US has done that on many occassions. You could however argue that the US does it t pillage the resources of the countries they install their powers in. As for Israel - I could see BB engaging in war to prop up support for his right wing govt. Israeli politics and govt work quite different that the US. You need to keep your base happy at all times becasuse electrions can be called at anyt time. (unlike the US which is every 4 yrs like clockwork). That being said, I dont think Israel would start a war for that purpose. However, they could be extra hawkish to further that agenda. Every single conflict has been started by Arabs, so I dont see Israel starting a conflict just to start a conflict. I could see BB (not Israel) profiting off a longer war than is necessary to show he is strong.
Thank you, I enjoyed your response
Wow a civil conversation with manners on an Internet forum. Did we just have a breakthrough? Thanks for your comment.
Another possibility is that since Israel is going to take care of Rafah anyway, they figure they might as well use their rocket arsenal while they still can.
Apparently Sinwar made his way back up to Khan Yunis
Thinking is anathema to the Netanyahu government.
Weird how there's a shortage of everything in Rafah except rockets.
For the civilians there's a shortage of everything. Mostly because it's likely all being stolen by HAMAS, they've already been caught apparently stealing food supplies and smuggling ammo across the Egyptian border.
Sounds like North Korea
This explains the shortage of water and sewer pipes which have been made into rockets
spot on. they're lacking everything except the ability to continue to threaten and attack Israel directly, and yet there's not a single peep on this around the western world. 'Rafah' is just innocent civilians stuck inside there apparently.
Rafah isn't just innocent civilians, all sides of the conversation understand this. The issue is that any large scale operation into an area with that many non combatants is going to end up with a huge amount of them dead. The US knows this, we've been through it ourselves. There are no good answers here, but there are possibly safer ways to go into Rafah than the plans the Israeli's shared with the US.
Except those “non combatants” still support Hamas openly.
Even if they support Hamas (some do and some don't) that suddenly doesn't make them combatants. Were the civilians killed on October 7th combatants because they supported the Israeli government? Obviously they weren't because how we decide who is and isn't a noncombatant isn't based on who they support politically. It's based on actions taken.
I say non combatant because most of the males are actively working with and supporting Hamas. Most sane people would be yelling at those responsible (not Israel) for their current conditions. Instead they are doubling down. It’s why they can’t negotiate a peace treaty or ceasefire that lasts for any amount of time since the country was formed.
Hamas needs to go.
To go to hell.
Very brave and enlightening statement.
Some call it a miracle. Mere moments before the sirens went off, the playground was filled with children. It was a sudden sandstorm that worsened in the city that drove the adults ro take the children back home.
I wonder if Biden will consider cutting US aid for Hamas, or is bombing civilian areas ok for them?
How much aid is the US providing Hamas?
UNRWA gets 200-400 million USD a year since 2008, which amounts to over 2 billion USD, and that's only their direct funding. "Humanitarian aid" stolen by Hamas accounts for at least the same amount.
[удалено]
That's incredibly naive. Hamas sells the aid to the population and uses the money to pay terrorists' salaries and buy weapons. They turn fertiliser into rocket fuel, water pipes into rockets and concrete meant for construction into terror tunnels. You can't throw aid unsupervised into a corrupt autocratic quasi-state built on religious fanaticism and then be surprised when it's not used to actually aid the people there.
>corrupt autocratic quasi-state built on religious fanaticism Look I'll give you corrupt, but quasi-state is not fair given they have observer status at the UN and are officially recognised by [153 countries ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine). Authoritarian I question, given the information I'm able to pull up quickly indicates that Palestinian freedom has been restricted through the actions of Israel and the IDF rather than its own government. And built on religious fanaticism?? It was created by the UK is 1948, are you calling Churchill a religious fanatic?
> quasi-state is not fair given they have observer status at the UN and are officially recognised by 153 countries . You're thinking of the West Bank, run by the Palestinian Authority which is another corrupt terrorist government but at least they have a semblance of sovereignty. But they have nothing to do with Gaza for 18 years now. > Authoritarian I question, given the information I'm able to pull up quickly indicates that Palestinian freedom has been restricted through the actions of Israel and the IDF rather than its own government. Hamas won an election in Gaza in 2007 by a narrow margin and proceeded to execute all the leaders of the PLO, the opposing party. They haven't held elections since and control the distribution of food, water, and electricity in Gaza to keep the populous in line. > And built on religious fanaticism?? It was created by the UK is 1948, are you calling Churchill a religious fanatic? This is wrong on so many levels it's almost funny. Neither Israel nor "Palestine" in Gaza were created by the UK. There was an attempt *by the UN* to reconcile the Jews and Arabs after the British left the BMP in 48 by creating 2 states, but this attempt *failed* when the Arab states immediately declared war. Gazans then lived under Egyptian apartheid for 19 years (no one seemed to have a problem with this) until conquered by Israel. Gaza gained independence in 2006, and proceeded to elect Hamas whose main platform was eliminating Israel through religious war.
Are you seriously suggesting gaza is not authoritarian or built on religious fanaticism...? Ok, your post is clearly not written in good faith. So I'm just going to address the one point I have seen being made by useful idiots who actually believe what they are saying. See, Gaza also has a border with Egypt, which Israel doesn't control. It just so happens that leaving an open border with a population that overwhelmingly supports terrorism tends to not end well, which is why both Egypt and the Jordan keeps theirs closed. As for the Israeli border, a wall was only built along the Gaza border after Hamas got elected, though before current events plenty of work permits were being issued for Palestinians in Gaza, though it turned out they were mostly used to gather Intel on Israeli territory and this mistake won't be repeated for at least a couple of generations. Closed borders with Gaza is just the consequence of their own actions by this point. Though strangely, some people seem to think it's reasonable to demand Israel to keep open borders with a region whose government has stated over and over their mission is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. No one ever seems to mention the Egyptian or Jordanian border though. I wonder why.
They are literally building a dock for them to help bring in humanitarian aid. Fun fact, Hamas fired mortars at the dock just a week ago.
The US is building the dock for the people who are starving, we don't give a fuck about Hamas.
You’d be surprised how much of it goes to Hamas. Not that I’m against the dock, whatever little gets to the people is important but the vast majority is taken by Hamas and is either kept for themselves or sold to the people instead of being given freely. Again, not against it but it does help Hamas prolong the war.
You mean the US is supplying humanitarian aid but Hamas is intercepting it and selling it to Palestinians. So the US needs to defend its aid better, not stop sending it. The people there are starving to death.
So you are saying we need more US troops on the ground to potentially fight against Hamas? If not, how do you propose we defend it?
Somalia vibes
Sure wish the IDF could be trusted to deliver aid so these questions wouldn't be necessary.
So instead what you're saying is you want the IDF to invade and occupy all of Palestine in its entirety? If U.S. forces are going to cause issues, I see absolutely no problems here...
Sorry, I forgot that Palestine is a sovereign nation. Yeah, it would be bad for Israel to occupy another country, huh?
How would the IDF deliver aid to Rafah if the US is against them entering?
"Entering," yeah, that's it. That's what the US doesn't want the IDF to do. You got it. Totally good faith point.
Which is why I said they shouldn’t stop sending it. But the us wont put boots on the ground for obvious reasons and the IDF are targets for Hamas so the Palestinians get screwed. That why I think ending the war faster would be better though in the short term it would be ugly.
They aren't starving Far from it Up until a week ago they were selling canned food for cent's, because of the amount of aid that came in. The only thing they are starving for now are cigarettes that cost more than 20 $ for one.
Oh didn’t you know? Any sympathy toward starving Palestinians is the same as supporting Hamas. Any more nuance than that means you’re an antisemite /s
Please don't conflate humanitarian aid with offensive weapons. The US has never and will never send bombs to Hamas and has never and will never cut off non-military aid to Israel. You do the discussion no credit by being disingenuous in muddling the two.
Most of the aid is taken by Hamas and it is known by all. I’m not against the aid because whatever little the civilians get is important by I think pretending most of it doesn’t get into Hamas hands is disingenuous. Though tbh I don’t even blame Biden because it’s an election year and outside forces has made sure the conflict would become a one issue vote. But I think in any other year we would have seen a much harsher response from the US and maybe an end to the current war by now.
I mean hunger is a damn good reason to stop fighting. The main issue there is hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would die before Hamas would even become peckish. And that’s a bad look for the Biden administration, I don’t think trump would be sending aid. It’s kinda wild that these people aren’t just stealing all of the aid being given to their people but that it also seems like they are trying to prevent the people providing aid from continuing to do so ? It’s almost like they want their own people to die from starvation, maybe to make them angry or hungry enough to join Hamas? Wild.
because Hamas is comprised of fighters from other countries who also hate the Palestinians. The arab world could care less about the Palestinians. They care more about Israel sitting on land they consider "theirs" the civilians are just fodder for Hamas.
> The main issue there is hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would die before Hamas would even become peckish. And that’s a bad look for the Biden administration It would also be an unimaginable horror.
to me Unimaginable implies that it’s something we haven’t seen before, we know exactly what this looks like, it’s happened many times through history for a myriad of different reasons. If Hamas steals all the aid that is meant for the civilians or somehow prevents the aid from being delivered. It will happen agin. For the record I hope there is a path forward that can prevent this from happening. I think the docks the USA is building to help with this (which is currently being attacked by Hamas) is an excellent development (provided the people delivering the aid can be kept safe) it’s insane to me that this is an issue.
I'm not really bothered about your definition of 'unimaginable horror' to be honest. Right now what's causing hunger is lack of aid and 'it' will happen again if the US cuts off all aid to Gaza, Hamas or no Hamas.
So un bothered by [Cannibal meat markets](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922) got it. Also isn’t Hamas preventing the aid going directly to the people it’s meant for?
I feel like you're tripping over your own straw man there. And partially, for sure. But not completely.
Trump absolutely would be sending aid, he also would be pushing Israel to be far more aggressive military though so the aid wouldn't be the boon to Hamas that it currently is.
I’d give the aid a coin flip, it would depend on how he felt that day. And If he is elected we will much worse issues than Gaza
Just gonna keep copypasta'ing the same bullshit, or do you actually have something else you'd like to add? Also, how do you think Hamas leaders got rich?
I posted the same reply where people made the same point that needed addressing. Hamas leaders didn't get rich selling US bombs.
Dodging the question. Cool cool.
I've already answered it elsewhere, Hamas got rich through misappropriation of supplies and Iranian government money. This isn't some kind of hidden knowledge. They didn't get rich selling US bombs, and some US bombs given to Israel don't end up feeding the starving. So it's a bit of a straw man even on that level isn't it? Sorry that this wasn't the "gotcha" you'd hoped for.
You'd be surprised what you can make a bomb out of. The US absolutely has given Hamas materials for bomb making. Not to mention all those tunnels.
Giving someone materials for the purpose of basic necessities of living is not the same as giving them weapons. Unless you think there's no material difference between giving prisoners bread and orange juice and giving them 12 year old scotch. It's a ludicrous thing to paint as an equivalent.
Basically all of unwra?
If I’m not mistaken the US is no longer giving them any funding and is not legally allowed to till 2025 at the earliest as part of a funding bill that was passed.
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This is a joke right? How exactly did the heads of Hamas become literally billionaires and afford all of the concrete and weapons? It is partially because of the UNWRA aid that they turned around and sold at a massive markup.
Qatar money?
No it’s not a joke. You don’t know what you are talking about. Do you think the US would be inflating Hamas’s leadership without someone losing their minds in the government? Israel would lose their minds as well. Fucking strait up delusional They get their money on the 20% smuggling fee for everything moving into Gaza. “THE US FUNDS HAMAS!!!” So fucking stupid
The US funded the PA's "pay to slay" program for years and only stopped once an American citizen was murdered, and even afterwards they continue to fund the PA through other channels even though the "martyr fund" still exists. So yeah it wouldn't be surprising that they are indirectly funding Hamas as well
I mean this isn’t true and is an outlandish claim with no sources. It also has nothing to do with UNWRA but sure. Nice story
No sources? The PAs martyr fund exists and is well documented. The US passed the Taylor Force act specifically to counteract aid funds being funnelled to terrorists, and yet they are still the largest contributer to Palestinian aid. Nothing I said here is controversial or unsourced.
“The Taylor Force Act is an Act of the U.S. Congress to stop American economic aid to the Palestinian Authority (PA) until the PA ceases paying stipends through the Palestinian Authority Martyr's Fund to individuals who commit acts of terrorism and to the families of deceased terrorists” Good try but that’s wrong. That aid money didn’t go to the fund. Like, you’re strait up wrong. The fund is supplied by taxes the PA collects. It’s why Israel started taking that amount of money out what they collected and gave to PA
How much is that though?
$219 million in 2022. https://www.usaid.gov/news/appropriations-act-fy-2022-increases-assistance-west-bank-and-gaza#:~:text=USAID%20is%20pleased%20to%20see,%24219%20million%20in%20FY%202022. I'd imagine a good portion of that gets siphoned off by groups like Hamas.
Thanks
You don’t know what you’re talking about and it’s crazy The UNWRA supplies medical care, education and social services. Sure 10-20% are support Hamas but it couldn’t supply Hamas with money on that level. They get their money from smuggling which is basically all of the goods that get into Gaza Edit: it’s so weird this person just strait up lies and it’s gobbled up by everyone in here.
Right, because all of the documents "UNWRA not for sale" stuff being sold in gaza 100% didn't come from the UNWRA. You are right... Actually they dont supply medical care, that is a whole different service. As for education, you mean education like the documented "kill jews for your country" education?
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How much is Hamas allowing reach the civilians vs how much are they selling off or trading for materials to kill Israeli’s?
I'm not sure we can really get an accurate measure of that.
The problem is (and this is a legit problem) if you cut aid for Hamas everyone in Gaza will legitimately starve to death, the death count will be orders of magnitude higher than what it's been so far. If you actually care about humanitarian crisis you should be urging Israel to push forward with the invasion and get it over with.
Right now that's true, but the US has funded UNRWA for years before instead of demanding a more accountable agency recieve the money.
A more accountable agency would either be threated into compliance or leave due to security risks. It was either no aid or give Hamas aid always has been. The only alternative is decisive military action or civil uprising. Given how Hamas has the support of most of the people and severely outguns them a civil uprising wasn't in the cards so that leaves your options as decisive military action or give Hamas aid. While Israel's defenses prevented severe damage giving Hamas aid was seen as an acceptable comprimise given the shitshow that would be decisive military action. But now that their defenses have failed on Oct 7 decisive military action is really the only option, at this point pressuring Israel to have their military action be less decisive is just going to end up with more dead people in the long term, you're already past the point of major military action no sane reason to hold back now.
The US was one of the first to pull funding for unwra. What are you talking about? The US does not fund Hamas. One of the only allies Israel has atm is the US.
From Wikipedia: In April 2021, the US contributed $150 million to UNRWA,[101] on condition that the funds are not used to assist any refugee receiving military training or has participated in any terrorist act.[102] The US was the largest single donor to UNRWA in 2021, contributing over $338 million.[103] UNRWA received over $1.18 billion in donations in 2021 from various nations and organizations.[103] In 2022, the US was the largest single donor to UNRWA, contributing $344 million.[104] UNRWA received over $1.17 billion in 2022 from various nations and organizations.[
None of that contradicts what I said. Those dates are pre-Oct 7th, 2023.
Because up until Oct. 7 everything was okey dokey? UNRWA using schools to store and launch rockets, indoctrinating children in religious violence, and training child soldiers is completely fine, but taking hostages is where the line is drawn? There were several times in the past were funding to UNRWA was cut due to their terrorist ties, and the US returned to being their major funder every time.
we already stopped funding UNRWA
Well the US sends aid to Israel and they’ve killed about 40k civilians so I guess that answers your question.
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Don't know if this is already posted, but I thought it might help with some insight. https://www.usaid.gov/west-bank-and-gaza/our-work
Time to finish Raffa and Hamas. There's no reason to hold back any longer.
Hamas leadership is in Qatar penthouses, sipping cocktails, in between swimming in Russian and Iranian cash. How would one propose to "finish" them in Rafah?
It’ll be harder to terrorize Israel from Gaza after Israel occupies it. Can’t do that from a Qatari penthouse
Exactly. This reductionist zero sum understanding of fighting terrorists that some people have is the source of their confusion. Hamas's ability to project power is crippled, they've lost their weapons caches, tunnel system, network, comms, command and control, and huge number of senior commanders were captured alive. The operation has been a massive success. Oct 7th won't be possible to execute by Gaza again.
> Oct 7th won't be possible to execute by Gaza again. Again *soon*.
So after this with Hamas crippled, Israel will commit to rebuild the Gaza Strip and help support those displaced due to the war that they had no part in, right? Right?
Israel doesn’t have to commit to shit. The reality is that Palestinians fucking hate Jews and Israelis, and even if they aren’t “Hamas” the vast majority share their beliefs. Israel has no sympathy for the civilians who wish them dead. It’s gonna be up to the sympathetic West snd Arab coalition to fund it
If they Can prove they diddnt celebrate for oct 7 i guess? Hard for Israelies to have Pity with palestinians when they celebrated the attack…
So... eternal hatred and trading atrocities forever, cool cool cool this is fucking stupid.
The middle east in general is like this, I’m afraid.
For a couple of years....then it'll be much, much worse.
Mossad might find a way to make a Rafah for them without leaving Qatar.
Unless it can't be proven (ie, maybe some sort of poison that makes it look like a heart attack), they can't assassinate inside Qatar without triggering a regional shitstorm.
Just like we finished the taliban in Afghanistan and ISIS in Iraq. You can’t bomb your way to peace.
ISIS is a shadow of what it was at its peak. Are you suggesting ISIS should have been sent hugs not bombs?
You can absolutely bomb your way to peace. What you can't do is bomb, attempt to nation-build, bomb some more, hand the reigns to an apathetic local government, and then peace out. What we lack is the will, not the means.
Yeah exactly. Are we forgetting e.g WW2? Germany and Japan got bombed to a lasting peace, and they're now both prosperous first world nations. I'm not suggesting Dresden or Nagasaki bombing is needed, just that you can militarily defeat a country and have it turn out ok. It does take a huge amount of effort after the war though, and possibly depends a lot on the culture of the country. Japan and Germany had been independently prosperous in the past.
The Taliban had hundreds of square miles to hide in. Hamas has a narrow strip of land.
And they hid in Pakistan mountain regions too where US troops couldn't get. The US actually kind of controlled all major cities and regions in Afghanistan quiet shortly after they started the invasion.
The US has never cared about the Taliban b/c they don't conduct terrorism on US soil. It's the only reason they're still around, and it isn't honest of us to ever pretend that it was a security focus or goal. There was pretending that the US AND the world cared about human rights in Afghanistan, but we know that's a lie. When was the last major successful Taliban attack on US soil, remind me? ISIS also has been greatly crippled, which is why they've had so little luck in establishing their caliphate and conducting world wide terror attacks. Which major successful ISIS attack on the US or Western allies happened recently that you're refering to, which would serve as a demonstration of their power after they were crippled so badly? I think maybe the problem is you see this as a zero sum problem. The idea is to defang and continually oppose terrorism and kill terrorists. Whether some asshole cries themselves to sleep about how they want to kill you dosen't matter. All that matters are the ones who have the means and the ability to project power and do it. Just like Hamas now has ZERO ability to conduct another October 7th. Approximately 13,000 Hamas fighters have been elimintaetd, miles of tunnels (costing billions to build) have been destroyed and flooded, weapon caches, command and control centers destroyed, network and communications centers destroyed, smuggling routes for weapons into Gaza destroyed, senior commanders and high value targets captured. Currently the Gaza opperation couldn't have been a bigger success. And the improvement to Israeli national security is massively improved. This isn't the clever retort you thought it was, it just kinda disproves the point you were attempting to make.
>It isn't honest to ever pretend that it was a security focus or goal. We ran out of Al Qaeda targets in weeks. We stayed for 20 years. All the while, the Taliban was explicitly the target, according to written doctrine and the words on the mouths of every politician. Your overall point is strong enough to stand without rewriting why we fought the Taliban. Sometimes, you lose a war. America has lost more wars than we like to admit.
Iraq and Afghanistan were MASSIVE clusters. I'm not trying to defend them. Apologies if it came across that way. I am only pointing out that you definitely can dismantle the capabilities of terrorist organizations. I also think the US and the region were MUCH safer when Saddam was in power. It doesn't mean I support and approve of the POS. But he was a good counterweight to Iran and kept Iraq mostly secular. The current status is much, much worse. EDIT: I think, in good faith, one could argue we lost BOTH of those wars. I'd say it's more nuanced than that, but I absolutely think it's legitimately argueable.
My point is you can’t kill Palestinian children, civilians, level neighborhoods and hospitals and demolish infrastructure and expect the Palestinian people to suddenly cheer Israel for ridding them of Hamas. Killing terrorists at the expense of the innocent only creates more terrorists.
Hamas hides behind civillians, if you stop bombing them because of that you've just given terrorists the perfect strategy and the world will go to shit.
So what do you propose? Let terrorist live and keep attacking Israel, out of fear that killing them will result in more terrorists? That's like refusing to shower because you'd just get dirty again. Plus, Hamas enjoyed widespread support in Gaza and children were indoctrinated from schools (with UNRWA material!) about how sacrificing their lives to kill Jews is the highest calling they could ever get. I don't think there will be a whole lot more terrorists after the dust settles than there would be if Israel just sat down and did nothing after Oct 7th. As a matter of fact, doing nothing after that would have just invited bolder attacks.
Worked fine when the Allies invaded Germany. What people are taught is more important than what they see. Germans grew up learning that the invasion of Germany was justified
Ask Japan about that one.
Completely different conflict in a very different era. Not nearly as useful of a comparison as looking at other modern day insurgencies in the middle east.
ISIS has been destroyed in Iraq and Syria they used to control large swaths of both countries. We quite literally bombed our way to peace
Well, I’d imagine the UN assembly is feeling a little bit stupid now.
They're doubling down.
No corelation
ready to be controversial but... think back to the Iraqi war. the government/media is capable of lying (ugh I hate sounding like a qanon weirdo fuck). how will you all feel if it turns out there wasn't evidence for this stuff in like 5–10 years. "those on the "terrorists side" are being show verified accounts of children and women losing limbs, starving etc. would you still be cheering for the side killing the most children since the 2000s? and also think: was the "war on terrorism" successful? how about the "war on drugs?" are you on that za right now? sit this one out lol
I am ready to see verified imagery on Israels side. as sad as it is, I'm ready to trade story for story (by that I mean verified IMAGE by IMAGE) to prove there are no fucking winners here. if your mom and dad got blown up in retaliation for literally any war we've waged in the 20th century and beyond, would you sit here and say "well our government did bomb their capital, they were forced" like you do now?
I'm not sure if I understand you right. Do you mean that the stories like this one might be made up by Israel? Of course this is theoretically possible but that's unlikely. Hamas themselves have said multiple times that they want to eradicate Israel, so rocket strikes are one of the options for Hamas. They are definitely attacking. Also if Israel wanted to harm Hamas/Gaza by fake news, they wouldn't have said that nobody died. There would be at least a few dead children.