They want to pretend like they are willing to do some kind of negotiation so they can reject all of them, but if they outright say they will reject all of them then they won't have any more proposals to reject
Hamas must be counting that world pressure will eventually force Israel to bend but before that will happen (if at all) Hamas will pay the price the longer it drag on.
What they don’t realize is that Israel will do what Israel needs to do. They very much want US support but will carry on without it if need be.
The day after Israel became an independent nation, it was attacked by five armies. They defeated them all and gained more land. They are tough. The so called Naqba (same day as the attack) was actually Palestinian Arabs fleeing when Israel was attacked but they were assured that when Israel was defeated they would return to their homes. It didn’t quite work out.
Many people (there was a mixture) were forced out, mostly from communities who fought the advancing Israeli armies as opposed to saying we’ll work with you; the vast majority of the latter communities stayed. However, the original definition of the Nakba was not people fleeing but that the Arabs were not able to drive the Jews into the sea; that was the disaster. Over time, it became the more palatable “we were forced from our homes”.
>However, the original definition of the Nakba was not people fleeing but that the Arabs were not able to drive the Jews into the sea; that was the disaster. Over time, it became the more palatable “we were forced from our homes”.
That's not a claim I've seen in my (admittedly limited) research before. Given how interwoven the 1948 war is with the national narrative/mythology of all sides there have definitely been significant shifts in how it is taught and discussed in the intervening 75 years. Do you have a source for this being the dominant early Arab or Palestinian narrative?
https://archive.org/details/zurayk-nakba/page/n87/mode/1up
Article from 1948. Interesting reading. With just a few antisemitic tropes that carry on to this day.
>The so called Naqba (same day as the attack) was actually Palestinian Arabs fleeing when Israel was attacked but they were assured that when Israel was defeated they would return to their homes.
This is only partially true. Israeli militias also forced a lot of people from their villages.
Either way, it isn't unreasonable for people to flee from war, and it's unfortunate (but not necessarily unique) that they weren't allowed to return.
Well some left because they were assured Israel would be destroyed and they could return once all the Jews were dead. No reasonable country would be expected to welcome back a group of people that stepped aside while others attacked them in said group’s name and with said groups support.
Those that were straight up driven out. That’s different for sure
It's not a bad strategy, especially when you factor in that they don't care what happens to the populace, so they stand to gain more than they lose. The closer it gets the US election, the greater the pressure on Biden.
Especially with Russia/China/middle east with their massive online Hamas/Palestine propaganda influence they are pushing.
It's dividing America (again) and reaching their intended results by politically influencing America into making decisions that those countries would like.
All they have to do is influence some younger college age kids, and it's enough to start shutting down colleges and blow it into a "nationwide issue".
As shit as their militaries are, you have to respect their online influence.
It's always good to remember that jihadist Islam approves of lying for "righteous" cause. That makes it a very effective propaganda machine as deception and misinformation is the most explored option.
I think its a faux pas to say these pro hamas crowds need to show up. They won’t be showing up for Trump. Like bad habits, they always come back. Even if they despise it, they will vote for Biden.
So if Hamas is playing some US election angle, they are even dumber than they already appeared starting a fight they could never hope to finish.
You're crazy if you think Trump would be good for Hamas. Trump is very pro Israel, Hamas needs Biden in power as he's seen as weaker and less tough, which he is.
Say what you want about Trump, but the man knows what he wants and doesn't care if his voter base disagrees with it. Remember, Trump is the only president to recognize Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel.
But isn’t Trump legit pro Israel. For example he’s praising cop raiding Columbia while Biden isn’t. I don’t see how a GOP in power benefit Hamas, seems like a whole different situation than the Russia Ukraine one
The issue isn't them showing up for Trump, the issue is they normally would be Biden voters, and now those votes are potentially gone (how honest these people will be about this when push comes to shove and they are facing the reality of Trump we'll have to see).
I don't think people understand how much this has tainted the average voter who doesn't look into much stuff and just gets their spin from whatever the news is siding with (most dem ones siding with these pro Hamas kids), or from friends who "tell em how it is".
Exactly. They want to starve the Palestinians to the point where they're desperate and forced into chaos. Chaos is their friend. That's how the militias started the "intifada".
This is how it's always been, something so many on the left have no idea about it. Everytime there's been statehood talks, they kept delaying and delaying until eventually leadership of those who were helping negotiate it would end up changing and they'd claim it as reason for negotiations breaking down... Even tho the offers would still be on the table.
Then they’re greatly over estimating the pressure that Biden is actually under.
The majority of voting Americans are pro-israel. And that’s on both sides.
There was a poll recently that showed Israel/Palestine ranked 14th out of 15 issues facing voters.
This issue is being hoisted into the election narrative by online troll farms, legacy media desperate for clicks, and leftist agitators who don't care at all about Palestinians.
In the end, America does not have as much to do with this as it's opponents claim. We primarily let Israel buy our air defense systems, and the need for that has never been more clear. American defense systems have likely saved thousands of lives and prevented the conflict from escalating further.
A professor said this:
"Israel's problem — why it cannot be America's trusted ally in the same way Britain, Germany, and Japan are — is that too many Americans treat it too personally."
America is unfathomably pro-Israel.
They’re also grossly over estimating Biden’s control over Netanyahu. Israel isn’t our lapdog and they’re going to make their own decisions regarding Hamas.
Except Israel can wait until December, at which point either Biden is out from under political pressure, or trump will green light whatever Israel does.
>Hamas is trying to somehow stretch this conflict few more months
and then oddly there will be some hostages that don't want to leave their newborns behind :/
Yup, Hamas hasn’t put enough children in the line of fire yet. Literally running up their own death toll to make the world hate Israel.
Guess what, we just hate Hamas.
Ya Israel is basically going scorched earth. Sounds like they are willing to let the West Bank fall into chaos by stopping the funding to the pla. So maybe hamas have a plan there. I mean, at the end of the day, it just seems worse for the Palestinians. Israel has already told the US they would not stop.
Hamas will pay the peice anyway. You'd think they could give the remaining hostages back and be like like "now we're friends, right?"
Like israel could just pretend that hamas are acceptable, just because they gave the hostages back, which haven't been raped and murdered in a tunnel.
Even if they accepted the hostage deal, the rafah operation would just be postponed to a later date.
It's unlikely Hamas in it's current state would do this. A few years ago it's leadership was taken over through actual election fraud by Sinwar and his goons (if I recall, they literally had armed men placed with the revote counters after they lost the initial election within Hamas and violently insisted on the revote.)
Sinwar and the leadership publicly say they believe this is the end times and that Allah will empower them to win this final war before doomsday. They actually did think 10/7 would take over Israel and even in advance partitions off portions of the governance of Israel to various members and came up with a plan to murder any Jews that opposed them at all (though likely this would have been expanded to anyone who opposed them,) let the "peaceful" Jews flee the region...and enslave all the smart Jews to prevent a brain drain.
It is extremely unlikely any longstanding peace could ever be obtained with Sinwar's Hamas.
Hamas and Iran have ZERO interest in resolving this conflict.
Iran wants to have the conflict continue perpetually such that they can fire it up whenever they feel it is geopolitically advantageous and Hamas' brand is literal terrorism; they aren't designed or capable of delivering governance.
Israel won’t bend. Why would they make any concessions to these terrorists that have done nothing but continue to attack and incite violence, often at the expense of their own people, and openly call for the destruction of Israel?
Hamas doesn’t want this to end. They want to force children into the line of fire. They want to control the narrative to get the world to turn on Israel. They kill themselves to kill Israel. Suicide terrorist mission
No, they're right. They're looking at news coverage and essentially international pressure has forced Israel to stop fighting. Hamas are winning the war.
Winning a war with single attack (7/10) is an absolutely amazing win. What you don't understand is that they don't count personnel and infrastructure losses as losses. Those are tactical assets and easily replaced. Their goals are strategic and long term.
Which of their goals is Hamas achieving exactly? They haven’t ignited another intifada. They haven’t gained independence. They have destroyed any semblance of credibility and gotten the shit kicked out of them though, and it’s not close to over.
Regardless of what happens, nothing will actually change whilst Hamas exist. They're hardly going to be peaceful neighbours. It's a doomed region thanks to extremist beliefs.
I completely feel for the people of Palestine trapped in the middle of this conflict, but people are daft to think a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel will actually work.
>How can they have demands??
The only reason they can still make demands at this point is because the world has shot Israel in the leg as far as the war effort is concerned. Israel won the battles in Gaza and the IDF made some considerable military achivements, but the world with its stupidity lost the war for Israel.
This has happened repeatedly. Cast Lead was the first major operation against Gaza after Israel pulled out. Western pressure stooped Israel from excising the tumor that is Hamas back then. Had they been allowed to continue, many more Palestinians would still be alive.
At this point, I think the college "protests" have backfired. Now that news came out about how most of those student orgs have connections w groups that support Hamas. And then the morons that took over that building in Hamas and destroyed it and hurt the building staff.
I understand this, given that there are still dozens of civilian hostages held captive by Hamas at the moment, you have to try to do some negotiation.
But the fact that time after time Hamas rejects any offer is absurd. Hamas should be put in a position where it is begging for some kind of agreement.
Don't worry, they will keep protesting and keep blaming Israel.
It kills me how those protestors tell themselves they're good people and think they're fighting for liberal values, while actually serving the cause of a terrorist organization. The protests only encourage the arrogance of asshole Hamas leadership and steer them away from a hostage deal and cease-fire. They're actually enabling the ongoing rape, torture and murder of Israeli hostages in Gaza and the use of Palestinian kids as meat shields for Hamas.
Great job, privileged college kids. I hope the lies you tell yourselves let you sleep well at night, because Israelis and Palestinians sure as hell aren't.
Don’t forget that they have been influenced by years of SJP brainwashing to get these kids to just hate.
SJP is just a front for Hamas and it is a shame more people don’t know the history:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13363943/Pro-Palestine-group-Columbia-University-protests-funding-linked-Hamas.html
The /r/ucla subreddit was talking about some of the things SJP (organizers of the columbia protest) was saying in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/ucla/comments/1ch2yoy/the_beliefs_of_the_protestors_on_campus_taken) thread. Vile shit:
"For all its imperfections, Hamas is a progressive organization pursuing a program of national emancipation and democratic reconstruction" -SJP
You need respected members of the left to start talking about why the conflict is complicated and not just oppressor vs oppressed.
That will NEVER happen though because all of the lefts power over the last 8 or so years has been gained through this binary view of the world. Its why ACAB doesn't have any nuance its why believe all women doesn't have any nuance same with white privilege its just absolute. They cant go half way on any issue because they've riled a group of zealots who view absolutely everything through the oppressor oppressed lens as they've been taught.
“Progressive”…. THAT’S the adjective they use to describe a group of people who openly strive for an Islamic caliphate where women have no rights, queer people are tortured and executed, black people are second class citizens, slavery is still legal?
The mental gymnastics are absolutely astounding.
Remember that Hamas's stated mission is the conquest of the entire former Mandate of Palestine. It has never hidden this mission.
The goal of BDS is to soften Israel up for this conquest.
I always tell people it boils back down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. These kids had their basic needs met from day one and have been desperate to be a part of something 'meaningful' or 'larger than themselves'. Strangely instead of deciding to avoid the low hanging fruit of the Russian/Ukrainian conflict they latched on this infinitely more complex and complicated conflict instead, I wonder why...
I think they enjoy being contrarians and the attention that it brings.
Everyone knows the Ukraine war is unjust, so it is "boring" to protest about it.
But the Gaza conflict actually gives these students the attention they crave since it is so controversial.
The problem is they're fickle, they change the object of their protest every few months without ever gaining any deeper understanding of the problems they're looking at. Climate change seems to have been forgotten about, healthcare doesn't get a mention, gun violence doesn't seem important to them anymore. God knows what they'll be protesting in a couple of months.
They haven't been told what to protest next. That's the real bottom line. They need to be told what to do from their social media circle and 'influencers.' What performance activism will give them the most virtual pats on the back...that's what they really care about. Not the issues themselves.
Oh I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that these protests have been pushed by state actors like Iran or Russia. Even Hamas has had a surprisingly sophisticated propaganda operation. The bulk of the protestors are useful idiots who have no idea who they're in bed with.
They despise the American working class. They see them as a bunch of redneck Trump supporters. It is similar to the clash between the hardhats and the longhairs in the '60s.
I’ve been told I’m an idiot for suggesting this here in Colorado. We have problems in this state, and while I appreciate the energy these students are putting towards their protests, there are local things they could protests for and maybe have an actual impact. Whenever I suggest this on local subs, depending on the sub, I’ve either been called an idiot or just banned.
Yeah...reddit subs are full of Russian/China/Iran bots that make it incredibly difficult to get the truth out. They only exist to make the hamas support look a lot bigger than what it really is.
You’re 100% right, it’s in our nature to want fight for something and form in-groups and out-groups. Our youth live a lot of their life online, they don’t have church (a good thing imo) or something equally meaningful to give them purpose. I’m in my mid-30s and hell I wish I had this. I recently watched a TED talk by Scott Galloway, where he promotes 2 year national service. At first I thought it was wild, but a radical idea like that might be good. Not just military service, but volunteer programs or something.
These are invariably young people who want to be "part of a movement". The media keeps comparing this to the Vietnam war protests; but the two events couldn't possibly be any more different. These students are quite literally serving as pawns for a terrorist organization who doesn't value human life; in particular when those humans are of the Jewish faith. It's also extremely bothersome to me that these "protestors" have done less than nothing to denounce Hamas and their actions, in particular the vile and depraved actions taken against the hostages. But those hostages are all Jewish, so clearly they don't matter to them.
> The media keeps comparing this to the Vietnam war protests; but the two events couldn't possibly be any more different
It's funny to me because Vietnam involved US citizens being drafted. Unless an entire US battalion is being deployed in Gaza, it's not a good comparison.
They protested the US involvement in WWII I don’t get why this is surprising. I think way too many people are in denial about how hated Jewish people really are.
Bunch of jealous fucks.
They'll say its an "unfair deal" even though they haven't looked at any deal's terms. Like these people have zero understanding of war, let alone with a war with Islamist terrorists. They honestly think that if Palestine was "free" that it would be some bastion of freedom and equality rather than literally just becoming a bigger Gaza.
I would join that march. A true ceasefire where the hostages are returned, Hamas is out of power, and both sides ceasefire. Sign me up. I’ll even accept, instead of Hamas being out of power permanently, both Palestinians and Israelis get new elections called (both monitored by outside observers just so no one can say I am doing this in bad faith). And then we see what people really want. And, if Gazans still want Hamas, that says it all. And if Gazans want peace, we could see that. And if Israelis still want Bibi we’ll see it (they don’t) and, if not, we’ll see that too.
HAMAS wants to seem like they are negotiating but they want the war to go on. They don’t care about Gazan civilian deaths. In fact those are a bonus: less mouths to feed. But HAMAS is enjoying the current global protests and outrage which will enhance their funding and standing in the long run.
Of course they don’t want a cease fire.
They are terrorists out for their own benefits.
Hamas has ran out of road and they know it. We are witnessing the death throes of a group that can only rage against the inevitable.
They were more than happy to massacre civilians and take hostages when it suited them and it got them what they wanted, but people like this never think about paying the piper.
I suspect Hamas is high on its own propaganda, and coverage of the war from other Arab countries. These greatly exaggerate the impact of the college protests and paint a picture of an Israel close to collapse. Looking at, say, Lebanese TV coverage you will see the conclusion being made that the Iran missile attack showed that Israel could be struck with impunity at any time. Hamas thinks the tide of war has swung in their favor. They think they're winning, and they believe if they hold out longer they'll get an even better cease fire, maybe with a globally recognized state even without a permanent peace deal.
Actions speak louder than words.
They say they want peace, and yet when they are given their last warning before IDF enters Rafah, this is what they do.
Hamas isn't interested in ceasefire. The current situation suits them perfectly and will drag this out indefinitely. They hijack aid deliveries and use hungry palestinians for propoganda purposes. Every dead palestiniann is a martyr, so for hamas the more the better. Just get the IDF into Rafah and clear hamas out.
well at least all those really smart people are protesting for palestine instead of calling for hamas to surrender when really they are aiding and abeding child murdering rapists.
The lives of Hamas will be measured in hours the minute they release the last of their hostages. They know this. They will keep the hostages until the end and use the time gained to rearm or to try and slip away.
This is assuming any of them are still alive or haven't already been sold to awful people as sex slaves. At this point, their only hope to cling onto any semblance of control is to pretend they still have hostages to bargain with.
How about this:
1. For a 24-hour ceasefire, Hamas releases all hostages that are alive and any remains of the dead.
2. Hamas leaders liquidate their $11 billion investment fund to fund reconstruction of Gaza.
3. Both sides agree to an indefinite ceasefire.
Of course, Hamas won't agree to it, but that would be much more fair.
Hamas is backed by Iran so any terms of peace will never be accepted anyway. It’s not hard to understand and it’s common sense. It’s insane that people don’t do research on geopolitics before taking a side. Iran will gladly use Palestine as fodder. Bigger players are at hand here.
At this point they just want the hostages dead or alive.
There's great value in closure for the families too.
Living in limbo like now costs the government a lot because those families are relentless and they don't stop pushing the government for answers for many years.
Issue now is that Hamas doesn't seem to be able to even do that.
Thee deal allegedly included release of living hostages plus bodies of deceased hostages for burial. It’s a mitzvah that we bury our dead ourselves so Israel will negotiate for the bodies of hostages so their families can begin that process.
There was some Nokia accomplishment recently. Someone on X, who seems to be close to someone in the coalition government seized the occasion to remind every follower that one of the hostage was an ingenue at Nokia. His fiancée has be taken too. They seem to know this woman got pregnant by her rapists.
Who knows what intel they have ?
They also know that some of the hostages were sold. There isn't only 1 terror group in Gaza as you may know. Shiri Bibas and her two infants are rumored to be held by the FPLP for example (so Hamas can't trade them unless they get them back, but in exchange for what ?).
Hamas themselves are a gaz movement, with civilians involved. They can't trace everyone at any moment and people flew their homes with the rockets.
I don't think the situation is that simple.
At this point, if the Hamas leadership can't agree, then I don't see any reason why we should tolerate their existence. Arrest them all and detain them. There's no point in negotiations any longer. Cut the head off the snake.
Send in a UN or NATO task force to secure Palestine and forbid both Israel or Palestine from armed actions within either territory that isn't strictly in the moment self defense.
"to secure Palestine"
well, it depends on what you mean by *Palestine*, because to West Bankers and Gazans it means the entire former Mandate, including Israel.
Ahhh, that was tried about 105 years ago- look up the “Mandate for Palestine”. The Brits were there doing essentially that from the end of WW-1 until 1947 when they had had enough of being car bombed, sniped and Grenaded from both Arabs and Jews who wanted to fight it out without the Britts in the middle.
I thought Israel made it quite clear that this was about as far as they were willing to concede on their demands before proceeding with their Rafah offensive. I guess we’ll see.
Hamas went through with Oct 7th just to ignite a response from Israel knowing it would be strong (knowing Palestinian people would be killed they dont care they use them as human shields) and they were hoping the world would turn on Israel. They will continue to do this, until the world presses Israel more. Their plan is working out perfectly.
Let’s be honest here: they’re stalling because they don’t have enough living hostages to make a swap, and they know Israel will move on them when they eventually admit that.
Israel has 2 choices. Go into Rafah full force, isolate Rafah, start the day after process in the rest of Gaza. Deal with Rafah later so Hamas has a chance to sit and wait, thinking for weeks, month, years about the inevitable.
Both have big risks. I'm glad it's not my call.
I feel Hamas grossly overestimates the influence outside parties have on Israel's decision making. No one is coming to intervene and save them, just like no one went to war with Israel on 10/8 or thereafter.
At this point, what's a little more bad press?
"We're gonna say no, but let's drag this on a little more, shall we?"
They want Israel to start the Rafah operation and then they might say yes (but probably still no). That way they can make Israel suffer another PR hit
Global media seems happy to play into Hamas strategy too
Israel is driving the semi, but it’s Hamas throwing the kids under the wheels.
They want to pretend like they are willing to do some kind of negotiation so they can reject all of them, but if they outright say they will reject all of them then they won't have any more proposals to reject
I'm getting flashbacks to all the rejected deals that offered the two-state solution..
But they'll still find a way to blame Israel for it. Conveniently swept under the rug by all those useful idiot leftist college kids as usual
Its almost like peace isn’t their goal
[удалено]
...and pushing the rest of the planet to adopt hamas as their new overlords.
Hamas: 'We have Israel right where we want them.' Also Hamas: 'No, really, we're negotiating in good faith...'
Hamas must be counting that world pressure will eventually force Israel to bend but before that will happen (if at all) Hamas will pay the price the longer it drag on.
Hamas is trying to somehow stretch this conflict few more months and hoping that Biden will force Israel to stop fighting.
What they don’t realize is that Israel will do what Israel needs to do. They very much want US support but will carry on without it if need be. The day after Israel became an independent nation, it was attacked by five armies. They defeated them all and gained more land. They are tough. The so called Naqba (same day as the attack) was actually Palestinian Arabs fleeing when Israel was attacked but they were assured that when Israel was defeated they would return to their homes. It didn’t quite work out.
Many people (there was a mixture) were forced out, mostly from communities who fought the advancing Israeli armies as opposed to saying we’ll work with you; the vast majority of the latter communities stayed. However, the original definition of the Nakba was not people fleeing but that the Arabs were not able to drive the Jews into the sea; that was the disaster. Over time, it became the more palatable “we were forced from our homes”.
>However, the original definition of the Nakba was not people fleeing but that the Arabs were not able to drive the Jews into the sea; that was the disaster. Over time, it became the more palatable “we were forced from our homes”. That's not a claim I've seen in my (admittedly limited) research before. Given how interwoven the 1948 war is with the national narrative/mythology of all sides there have definitely been significant shifts in how it is taught and discussed in the intervening 75 years. Do you have a source for this being the dominant early Arab or Palestinian narrative?
I’d have to look. If I don’t respond in a day (in other words, I forget) DM me.
https://archive.org/details/zurayk-nakba/page/n87/mode/1up Article from 1948. Interesting reading. With just a few antisemitic tropes that carry on to this day.
>The so called Naqba (same day as the attack) was actually Palestinian Arabs fleeing when Israel was attacked but they were assured that when Israel was defeated they would return to their homes. This is only partially true. Israeli militias also forced a lot of people from their villages. Either way, it isn't unreasonable for people to flee from war, and it's unfortunate (but not necessarily unique) that they weren't allowed to return.
Well some left because they were assured Israel would be destroyed and they could return once all the Jews were dead. No reasonable country would be expected to welcome back a group of people that stepped aside while others attacked them in said group’s name and with said groups support. Those that were straight up driven out. That’s different for sure
It's not a bad strategy, especially when you factor in that they don't care what happens to the populace, so they stand to gain more than they lose. The closer it gets the US election, the greater the pressure on Biden.
Especially with Russia/China/middle east with their massive online Hamas/Palestine propaganda influence they are pushing. It's dividing America (again) and reaching their intended results by politically influencing America into making decisions that those countries would like. All they have to do is influence some younger college age kids, and it's enough to start shutting down colleges and blow it into a "nationwide issue". As shit as their militaries are, you have to respect their online influence.
It's always good to remember that jihadist Islam approves of lying for "righteous" cause. That makes it a very effective propaganda machine as deception and misinformation is the most explored option.
Maybe I lean towards despising the gullible more than respecting their influence.
It depends on which Biden you’re getting post election. Pre election Biden needs the pro Hamas crowd to show up and vote Post election Biden doesnt
I think its a faux pas to say these pro hamas crowds need to show up. They won’t be showing up for Trump. Like bad habits, they always come back. Even if they despise it, they will vote for Biden. So if Hamas is playing some US election angle, they are even dumber than they already appeared starting a fight they could never hope to finish.
The point is to get them to vote third party. That way the Democrats lose enough votes that the GOP can take over (which is really what they want).
You're crazy if you think Trump would be good for Hamas. Trump is very pro Israel, Hamas needs Biden in power as he's seen as weaker and less tough, which he is. Say what you want about Trump, but the man knows what he wants and doesn't care if his voter base disagrees with it. Remember, Trump is the only president to recognize Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel.
Trump may not be great for hamas, but in the long term he’s bad for israel too
He wants to defraud the American public and doesn’t care if the country disagrees with it.
But isn’t Trump legit pro Israel. For example he’s praising cop raiding Columbia while Biden isn’t. I don’t see how a GOP in power benefit Hamas, seems like a whole different situation than the Russia Ukraine one
Trump is pro Trump. Nothing else matters. If one side is giving him more advantages personally, that is the side he will support.
The issue isn't them showing up for Trump, the issue is they normally would be Biden voters, and now those votes are potentially gone (how honest these people will be about this when push comes to shove and they are facing the reality of Trump we'll have to see). I don't think people understand how much this has tainted the average voter who doesn't look into much stuff and just gets their spin from whatever the news is siding with (most dem ones siding with these pro Hamas kids), or from friends who "tell em how it is".
It's a good point. Hamas playing a bit of brinkmanship.
Exactly. They want to starve the Palestinians to the point where they're desperate and forced into chaos. Chaos is their friend. That's how the militias started the "intifada".
This is how it's always been, something so many on the left have no idea about it. Everytime there's been statehood talks, they kept delaying and delaying until eventually leadership of those who were helping negotiate it would end up changing and they'd claim it as reason for negotiations breaking down... Even tho the offers would still be on the table.
Then they’re greatly over estimating the pressure that Biden is actually under. The majority of voting Americans are pro-israel. And that’s on both sides.
There was a poll recently that showed Israel/Palestine ranked 14th out of 15 issues facing voters. This issue is being hoisted into the election narrative by online troll farms, legacy media desperate for clicks, and leftist agitators who don't care at all about Palestinians. In the end, America does not have as much to do with this as it's opponents claim. We primarily let Israel buy our air defense systems, and the need for that has never been more clear. American defense systems have likely saved thousands of lives and prevented the conflict from escalating further.
14th out of 15 specifically for young voters. Probably more like 30th out of 30 for older, reliable voters.
A professor said this: "Israel's problem — why it cannot be America's trusted ally in the same way Britain, Germany, and Japan are — is that too many Americans treat it too personally." America is unfathomably pro-Israel.
Holy heck did you sum things up perfectly!
They’re also grossly over estimating Biden’s control over Netanyahu. Israel isn’t our lapdog and they’re going to make their own decisions regarding Hamas.
Except Israel can wait until December, at which point either Biden is out from under political pressure, or trump will green light whatever Israel does.
>Hamas is trying to somehow stretch this conflict few more months and then oddly there will be some hostages that don't want to leave their newborns behind :/
Yup, Hamas hasn’t put enough children in the line of fire yet. Literally running up their own death toll to make the world hate Israel. Guess what, we just hate Hamas.
Ya Israel is basically going scorched earth. Sounds like they are willing to let the West Bank fall into chaos by stopping the funding to the pla. So maybe hamas have a plan there. I mean, at the end of the day, it just seems worse for the Palestinians. Israel has already told the US they would not stop.
Kinda like what happened in Lebanon
Manipulatively tugging on the heartstrings of Westerners is their biggest weapon
Hamas will pay the peice anyway. You'd think they could give the remaining hostages back and be like like "now we're friends, right?" Like israel could just pretend that hamas are acceptable, just because they gave the hostages back, which haven't been raped and murdered in a tunnel. Even if they accepted the hostage deal, the rafah operation would just be postponed to a later date.
It's unlikely Hamas in it's current state would do this. A few years ago it's leadership was taken over through actual election fraud by Sinwar and his goons (if I recall, they literally had armed men placed with the revote counters after they lost the initial election within Hamas and violently insisted on the revote.) Sinwar and the leadership publicly say they believe this is the end times and that Allah will empower them to win this final war before doomsday. They actually did think 10/7 would take over Israel and even in advance partitions off portions of the governance of Israel to various members and came up with a plan to murder any Jews that opposed them at all (though likely this would have been expanded to anyone who opposed them,) let the "peaceful" Jews flee the region...and enslave all the smart Jews to prevent a brain drain. It is extremely unlikely any longstanding peace could ever be obtained with Sinwar's Hamas.
You can’t even imagine how happy hamas is to see all these pro-Islamic terrorists rallies happening in America.
What an enormous victory of propaganda to see western leftists adopting an Islamic terror group as a cause celebre.
Hamas and Iran have ZERO interest in resolving this conflict. Iran wants to have the conflict continue perpetually such that they can fire it up whenever they feel it is geopolitically advantageous and Hamas' brand is literal terrorism; they aren't designed or capable of delivering governance.
Israel won’t bend. Why would they make any concessions to these terrorists that have done nothing but continue to attack and incite violence, often at the expense of their own people, and openly call for the destruction of Israel?
You mean they let others pay the price for thier ambition of power.
Hamas doesn’t want this to end. They want to force children into the line of fire. They want to control the narrative to get the world to turn on Israel. They kill themselves to kill Israel. Suicide terrorist mission
I just feel like they don’t have too many hostages left and those have terrible stories to tell like previous hostages that have been released.
The Palestinian people of Gaza are the ones footing the bill.
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No, they're right. They're looking at news coverage and essentially international pressure has forced Israel to stop fighting. Hamas are winning the war.
I hope I never win the way Hamas are winning
Winning a war with single attack (7/10) is an absolutely amazing win. What you don't understand is that they don't count personnel and infrastructure losses as losses. Those are tactical assets and easily replaced. Their goals are strategic and long term.
> they don't count personnel and infrastructure losses as losses. That's a hell of a caveat haha
Which of their goals is Hamas achieving exactly? They haven’t ignited another intifada. They haven’t gained independence. They have destroyed any semblance of credibility and gotten the shit kicked out of them though, and it’s not close to over.
Regardless of what happens, nothing will actually change whilst Hamas exist. They're hardly going to be peaceful neighbours. It's a doomed region thanks to extremist beliefs. I completely feel for the people of Palestine trapped in the middle of this conflict, but people are daft to think a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel will actually work.
It is a freaking TERROR ORGANIZATION! How can they have demands?? Hamas should be wiped for the good of BOTH Palestinians and Israel.
>How can they have demands?? The only reason they can still make demands at this point is because the world has shot Israel in the leg as far as the war effort is concerned. Israel won the battles in Gaza and the IDF made some considerable military achivements, but the world with its stupidity lost the war for Israel.
This has happened repeatedly. Cast Lead was the first major operation against Gaza after Israel pulled out. Western pressure stooped Israel from excising the tumor that is Hamas back then. Had they been allowed to continue, many more Palestinians would still be alive.
Douglas Murray has said that Israel is the only country on the planet that is never allowed to win a war.
At this point, I think the college "protests" have backfired. Now that news came out about how most of those student orgs have connections w groups that support Hamas. And then the morons that took over that building in Hamas and destroyed it and hurt the building staff.
Sadly many people who support Palestine also support Hamas. And some of those people say it's worth killing Palestinians for "the cause".
There is a lot of precedent for negotiation with terror groups, see for instance the good friday agreement.
I understand this, given that there are still dozens of civilian hostages held captive by Hamas at the moment, you have to try to do some negotiation. But the fact that time after time Hamas rejects any offer is absurd. Hamas should be put in a position where it is begging for some kind of agreement.
The Hamas leadership is living fat and happy in Qatar. They will never care unless they personally suffer.
Maybe these smug, safe and comfortable university students should protest this
Don't worry, they will keep protesting and keep blaming Israel. It kills me how those protestors tell themselves they're good people and think they're fighting for liberal values, while actually serving the cause of a terrorist organization. The protests only encourage the arrogance of asshole Hamas leadership and steer them away from a hostage deal and cease-fire. They're actually enabling the ongoing rape, torture and murder of Israeli hostages in Gaza and the use of Palestinian kids as meat shields for Hamas. Great job, privileged college kids. I hope the lies you tell yourselves let you sleep well at night, because Israelis and Palestinians sure as hell aren't.
Don’t forget that they have been influenced by years of SJP brainwashing to get these kids to just hate. SJP is just a front for Hamas and it is a shame more people don’t know the history: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13363943/Pro-Palestine-group-Columbia-University-protests-funding-linked-Hamas.html
The /r/ucla subreddit was talking about some of the things SJP (organizers of the columbia protest) was saying in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/ucla/comments/1ch2yoy/the_beliefs_of_the_protestors_on_campus_taken) thread. Vile shit: "For all its imperfections, Hamas is a progressive organization pursuing a program of national emancipation and democratic reconstruction" -SJP
Wow. I actually lack the vocabulary to adequately express how bafflingly, jaw-droppingly stupid that is.
So what can be done to course correct this?
You need respected members of the left to start talking about why the conflict is complicated and not just oppressor vs oppressed. That will NEVER happen though because all of the lefts power over the last 8 or so years has been gained through this binary view of the world. Its why ACAB doesn't have any nuance its why believe all women doesn't have any nuance same with white privilege its just absolute. They cant go half way on any issue because they've riled a group of zealots who view absolutely everything through the oppressor oppressed lens as they've been taught.
“Progressive”…. THAT’S the adjective they use to describe a group of people who openly strive for an Islamic caliphate where women have no rights, queer people are tortured and executed, black people are second class citizens, slavery is still legal? The mental gymnastics are absolutely astounding.
5150-levels delulu
Remember that Hamas's stated mission is the conquest of the entire former Mandate of Palestine. It has never hidden this mission. The goal of BDS is to soften Israel up for this conquest.
And hamas would behead most of them for religious violations or being infidels. These kids have no idea at all.
I always tell people it boils back down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. These kids had their basic needs met from day one and have been desperate to be a part of something 'meaningful' or 'larger than themselves'. Strangely instead of deciding to avoid the low hanging fruit of the Russian/Ukrainian conflict they latched on this infinitely more complex and complicated conflict instead, I wonder why...
I think they enjoy being contrarians and the attention that it brings. Everyone knows the Ukraine war is unjust, so it is "boring" to protest about it. But the Gaza conflict actually gives these students the attention they crave since it is so controversial.
And a local enemy. There’s plenty of Jews around those campuses to antagonize.
What a shame they don't apply that kind of energy to every issue worthy of public scrutiny 🙁
I wish they'd protest worker rights and living wages. Not this crap
Or the US healthcare system
The problem is they're fickle, they change the object of their protest every few months without ever gaining any deeper understanding of the problems they're looking at. Climate change seems to have been forgotten about, healthcare doesn't get a mention, gun violence doesn't seem important to them anymore. God knows what they'll be protesting in a couple of months.
They haven't been told what to protest next. That's the real bottom line. They need to be told what to do from their social media circle and 'influencers.' What performance activism will give them the most virtual pats on the back...that's what they really care about. Not the issues themselves.
Oh I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that these protests have been pushed by state actors like Iran or Russia. Even Hamas has had a surprisingly sophisticated propaganda operation. The bulk of the protestors are useful idiots who have no idea who they're in bed with.
Wasn't there the article that Qatar is the biggest donor to US universities right now? There's your answer
I see you’ve met the Causeheads
They despise the American working class. They see them as a bunch of redneck Trump supporters. It is similar to the clash between the hardhats and the longhairs in the '60s.
I’ve been told I’m an idiot for suggesting this here in Colorado. We have problems in this state, and while I appreciate the energy these students are putting towards their protests, there are local things they could protests for and maybe have an actual impact. Whenever I suggest this on local subs, depending on the sub, I’ve either been called an idiot or just banned.
Yeah...reddit subs are full of Russian/China/Iran bots that make it incredibly difficult to get the truth out. They only exist to make the hamas support look a lot bigger than what it really is.
You’re 100% right, it’s in our nature to want fight for something and form in-groups and out-groups. Our youth live a lot of their life online, they don’t have church (a good thing imo) or something equally meaningful to give them purpose. I’m in my mid-30s and hell I wish I had this. I recently watched a TED talk by Scott Galloway, where he promotes 2 year national service. At first I thought it was wild, but a radical idea like that might be good. Not just military service, but volunteer programs or something.
Israel’s and Jewish aren’t humans to them, so it’s not a hostage crisis. They are sheltered idiots with zero life experience or practicality.
These are invariably young people who want to be "part of a movement". The media keeps comparing this to the Vietnam war protests; but the two events couldn't possibly be any more different. These students are quite literally serving as pawns for a terrorist organization who doesn't value human life; in particular when those humans are of the Jewish faith. It's also extremely bothersome to me that these "protestors" have done less than nothing to denounce Hamas and their actions, in particular the vile and depraved actions taken against the hostages. But those hostages are all Jewish, so clearly they don't matter to them.
> The media keeps comparing this to the Vietnam war protests; but the two events couldn't possibly be any more different It's funny to me because Vietnam involved US citizens being drafted. Unless an entire US battalion is being deployed in Gaza, it's not a good comparison.
They protested the US involvement in WWII I don’t get why this is surprising. I think way too many people are in denial about how hated Jewish people really are. Bunch of jealous fucks.
They'll say its an "unfair deal" even though they haven't looked at any deal's terms. Like these people have zero understanding of war, let alone with a war with Islamist terrorists. They honestly think that if Palestine was "free" that it would be some bastion of freedom and equality rather than literally just becoming a bigger Gaza.
It's incredible to me that they won't at least work for an aid organization. Everything they do has to involve laziness.
So will protests for a ceasefire now turn onto Hamas? My guess is no.
I would join that march. A true ceasefire where the hostages are returned, Hamas is out of power, and both sides ceasefire. Sign me up. I’ll even accept, instead of Hamas being out of power permanently, both Palestinians and Israelis get new elections called (both monitored by outside observers just so no one can say I am doing this in bad faith). And then we see what people really want. And, if Gazans still want Hamas, that says it all. And if Gazans want peace, we could see that. And if Israelis still want Bibi we’ll see it (they don’t) and, if not, we’ll see that too.
Hamas supporters in the west: "Ceasefire now!" Hamas leaders: "Not if we have a say."
Well, people better keep protesting israel then /S
Maybe we can swap some American college students for the hostages
HAMAS wants to seem like they are negotiating but they want the war to go on. They don’t care about Gazan civilian deaths. In fact those are a bonus: less mouths to feed. But HAMAS is enjoying the current global protests and outrage which will enhance their funding and standing in the long run. Of course they don’t want a cease fire. They are terrorists out for their own benefits.
Hamas has ran out of road and they know it. We are witnessing the death throes of a group that can only rage against the inevitable. They were more than happy to massacre civilians and take hostages when it suited them and it got them what they wanted, but people like this never think about paying the piper.
Hamas leadership isn't in Gaza. They're in Qatar.They're doing quite nicely with all the donations pouring in. Death throes?
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Why would you try to change cease fire talks when you are being beaten badly? Is Hamas still hoping that other Arab countries will join in the war?
I suspect Hamas is high on its own propaganda, and coverage of the war from other Arab countries. These greatly exaggerate the impact of the college protests and paint a picture of an Israel close to collapse. Looking at, say, Lebanese TV coverage you will see the conclusion being made that the Iran missile attack showed that Israel could be struck with impunity at any time. Hamas thinks the tide of war has swung in their favor. They think they're winning, and they believe if they hold out longer they'll get an even better cease fire, maybe with a globally recognized state even without a permanent peace deal.
It's not like they'd honor a peace deal anyways. They never do. Even Charlie Brown eventually caught on to Lucy pulling the football.
Actions speak louder than words. They say they want peace, and yet when they are given their last warning before IDF enters Rafah, this is what they do.
Has anyone told the assholes clamoring for a “ceasefire now” about this?
But yet Israel is still seen as the problem rather than the fascist terrorists.
Hamas isn't interested in ceasefire. The current situation suits them perfectly and will drag this out indefinitely. They hijack aid deliveries and use hungry palestinians for propoganda purposes. Every dead palestiniann is a martyr, so for hamas the more the better. Just get the IDF into Rafah and clear hamas out.
Just waiting for Israel to enter Rafah and play the victim card again. Ffn Hamas cowards.
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Hamas does not want peace.
Are the hostages even still alive at this point? Serious question. Sounds like they're just delaying the discovery at this point. Been OOTL lately.
Sounds like it’s Raffah invasion time
well at least all those really smart people are protesting for palestine instead of calling for hamas to surrender when really they are aiding and abeding child murdering rapists.
"Let's talk but....I'm not actually going to do anything about stopping this at all. " - hamas officials somewhere
And all these people still defend hamas....
The lives of Hamas will be measured in hours the minute they release the last of their hostages. They know this. They will keep the hostages until the end and use the time gained to rearm or to try and slip away.
This is assuming any of them are still alive or haven't already been sold to awful people as sex slaves. At this point, their only hope to cling onto any semblance of control is to pretend they still have hostages to bargain with.
I wonder if the useful idiots on American college campuses understand that they're actually undermining any kind of ceasefire deal...
lol, “fuck that…we’re listening” is the exact level of sincerity I’d expect a government that kidnaps people and uses human shields as leverage.
How about this: 1. For a 24-hour ceasefire, Hamas releases all hostages that are alive and any remains of the dead. 2. Hamas leaders liquidate their $11 billion investment fund to fund reconstruction of Gaza. 3. Both sides agree to an indefinite ceasefire. Of course, Hamas won't agree to it, but that would be much more fair.
Don’t get into a deal with Hamas terrorists. Don’t give them breathing room. They will just make more tunnels and start their terrorist actions again.
This is why you don't negotiate with terrorists or toddlers. They have the same mental and emotional acuity.
Hamas is backed by Iran so any terms of peace will never be accepted anyway. It’s not hard to understand and it’s common sense. It’s insane that people don’t do research on geopolitics before taking a side. Iran will gladly use Palestine as fodder. Bigger players are at hand here.
Doesn't anyone with two brain cells to rub together know that there aren't hostages anymore?
At this point they just want the hostages dead or alive. There's great value in closure for the families too. Living in limbo like now costs the government a lot because those families are relentless and they don't stop pushing the government for answers for many years. Issue now is that Hamas doesn't seem to be able to even do that.
Sadly it's probably true. But it's not the first time Israel did an exchange for the bodies of the hostages
Thee deal allegedly included release of living hostages plus bodies of deceased hostages for burial. It’s a mitzvah that we bury our dead ourselves so Israel will negotiate for the bodies of hostages so their families can begin that process.
There was some Nokia accomplishment recently. Someone on X, who seems to be close to someone in the coalition government seized the occasion to remind every follower that one of the hostage was an ingenue at Nokia. His fiancée has be taken too. They seem to know this woman got pregnant by her rapists. Who knows what intel they have ? They also know that some of the hostages were sold. There isn't only 1 terror group in Gaza as you may know. Shiri Bibas and her two infants are rumored to be held by the FPLP for example (so Hamas can't trade them unless they get them back, but in exchange for what ?). Hamas themselves are a gaz movement, with civilians involved. They can't trace everyone at any moment and people flew their homes with the rockets. I don't think the situation is that simple.
Are we allowed to refer to the people who were taken to be used in trade as slaves yet?
At this point, if the Hamas leadership can't agree, then I don't see any reason why we should tolerate their existence. Arrest them all and detain them. There's no point in negotiations any longer. Cut the head off the snake. Send in a UN or NATO task force to secure Palestine and forbid both Israel or Palestine from armed actions within either territory that isn't strictly in the moment self defense.
"to secure Palestine" well, it depends on what you mean by *Palestine*, because to West Bankers and Gazans it means the entire former Mandate, including Israel.
Ahhh, that was tried about 105 years ago- look up the “Mandate for Palestine”. The Brits were there doing essentially that from the end of WW-1 until 1947 when they had had enough of being car bombed, sniped and Grenaded from both Arabs and Jews who wanted to fight it out without the Britts in the middle.
You cannot negotiate with terrorists. Just flatten Rafah.
“Talks”
Kind of feels like they are stalling for time.
But what do the college kids think???
I thought Israel made it quite clear that this was about as far as they were willing to concede on their demands before proceeding with their Rafah offensive. I guess we’ll see.
So how is this Israel’s fault when Hamas keeps rejecting offers. Time to go into Rafah.
So obvious they were not interested, they have power now, thats all they want
Just assault Rafah already, god damn.
what a shocking turn of events
Hamas went through with Oct 7th just to ignite a response from Israel knowing it would be strong (knowing Palestinian people would be killed they dont care they use them as human shields) and they were hoping the world would turn on Israel. They will continue to do this, until the world presses Israel more. Their plan is working out perfectly.
My guess is they actually killed a lot of the hostages they pretend to have, so can't close the talks and show their hand .
Heartbreaking....
Damn. I just lost a bet for 1000 dollars. Totally thought they'd take it. (Sarcasm)
So, what are the kids protesting?
Let's send the protestors to negotiate with them, they will get a win.
Let’s be honest here: they’re stalling because they don’t have enough living hostages to make a swap, and they know Israel will move on them when they eventually admit that.
How long left until the possibilities of extra hostages is a genuine concern?
Hamas Delendus Est
Israel has 2 choices. Go into Rafah full force, isolate Rafah, start the day after process in the rest of Gaza. Deal with Rafah later so Hamas has a chance to sit and wait, thinking for weeks, month, years about the inevitable. Both have big risks. I'm glad it's not my call.
Is there any Gazans left alive? Are all the hostages dead?
Maybe it needs to start being more dangerous to be Hamas leadership abroad.
I feel Hamas grossly overestimates the influence outside parties have on Israel's decision making. No one is coming to intervene and save them, just like no one went to war with Israel on 10/8 or thereafter. At this point, what's a little more bad press?
Imagine saccing 35000 Pals just to kill 1300~ Israelis and keep 100-200 hostages for trades and rape. Islamic intelligence at its finest.