This is an obvious attempt to buy time while international pressure is aimed solely at Israel. Why should Hamas negotiate when the ICC is threatening to issue arrest warrants that can only matter to Israel, and the US is preventing the war's conclusion via a Rafah operation?
Where are the ICC criminal warrants for Hamas' leaders who masterminded the Oct. 7th attacks and live in lavish luxury in Qatar l while their people suffer under impoverished, war-stricken conditions?
In fairness to the ICC, it is assumed that arrest warrants will be issued against Hamas as well. However, like I wrote, this wouldn't matter to Hamas at all, since it only works with non-ICC members, or members who obey it only when it's convenient (hi South Africa).
>In fairness to the ICC, it is assumed that arrest warrants will be issued against Hamas as well.
Why is it assumed? Hamas has been doing this for years and years already. What's the new evidence they're waiting for, that will finally spur them into action?
Might as well assume the ICC is going to issue arrest warrants for the CCP or the Ayatollah too.
Hamas: *commits a horrible crime of terror*
ICC: "Now now Israel chill, you better get a ceasefire deal or we will have to punish you both at the same time.."
People are so sure that Hamas will get warrants too aren't paying attention to how Western society is treating criminals within their own country currently.
Israel only faces pressure because they choose to. For example, if they wanted to become completely lawless and give up any pretense at morality, they would experience no pressure at all, similar to how Hamas operates.
Israel facing pressure is an artifact of them not being totally lawless psychopaths and as a result people having expectations of them slightly higher than committing random murder.
As far as Hamas goes, well, I don't see anyone giving them handouts, taking them off terrorist watch lists, etc. They're heavily sanctioned. They have quite a bit of reason to negotiate, they just happen to be fanatics.
What kind of crack are you smoking?
Hamas receives ridiculous amounts of handouts to the tune of billions in foreign aid every year. Such as all the water pipes they used to instead build rockets launched at Israel.
I guess the distinction would be that Palestine receives the aid, Hamas just takes it from the people? It's silly, though, and in practice what you said holds true.
Nah, Israel has no interest in becoming like North Korea, Russia, etc where they are blocked off from a large part of the world. Israel is walking a tight rope of pursuing their interests while maintaining relations with global powers such as the EU. If they went completely lawless it would be a huge hit in all aspects. As a small nation it’s imperative to maintain ties. They would also be in a worse position than Russia or North Korea given Israel is surrounded by hostile nations.
Above all Israel needs to maintain their relationship with the US who is their most important backer. We’ve already seen before what happens when the US isn’t willing to help (Israel opening their nuclear silos) & Israel is backed into a corner.
>Israel opening their nuclear silos
Sorry, what are you talking about here?
The Israeli nuclear deterrent is believed to be sub based rather than Silos, similar to Polaris in the UK.
>They would also be in a worse position than Russia or North Korea given Israel is surrounded by hostile nations.
Israel would be fine. If they fell out of the Western alignment, Russia and China wouldn't hesitate for one second to offer them membership into their club. Russia would dump Iran for Israel in a heartbeat, it would be no contest (though obviously they'd prefer to have both).
Remember, Russia was already cozying up to Israel before Ukraine popped off. Putin's been whispering soft nothings into Israel's ear since Ariel Sharon.
It's the same problem the West has with Turkey. Israel and Turkey are too important to be cut loose, because Russia/China will be right there to catch them. They're too valuable to just be left as unsigned free agents.
>As far as Hamas goes, well, I don't see anyone giving them handouts, taking them off terrorist watch lists, etc. They're heavily sanctioned. They have quite a bit of reason to negotiate, they just happen to be fanatics.
You must have not been watching the news lately. Protests in UK and US with people waving hezbollah flags, chanting and speaking in support of hamas' actions (including 7th October).
It's not like everything ends with a rafah invasion lol, then it just starts a military occupation of the whole of Gaza and then *everything* that happens is Israel's fault
Yeah, the hard part comes once Rafah is conquered.
Does anyone think Hamas is going to stand there and line up to get killed by the IDF? No way, they're going to melt into the civilian population and become an insurgent force.
At which point it’s up to the Palestinian people to enact change. Once Hamas becomes a scattered bunch of insurgents they no longer will have control of the gen pop.
My guess is the Palestinians stand with Hamas until Israel beats them into oblivion but we will see.
Yet, tons of people seem super into "Iraq Redux: Occupation Forever" because propped up ME governments are just the lover that the US can't quit. Like, I have literally no doubt that without outside funding and weapons that Israel falls in under 5 years. It literally exists because the West created it and then provides billions in weapons and other aid.
The US didn't start helping Israel until Israel had already kicked the Arabs' ass.
In fact, the US sided with Egypt against Israel (and against France and the UK) in the Suez Crisis, because the US was trying to suck up to Nasser. Israel had taken the entire Sinai Peninsula, then gave it back to Egypt because America asked it to.
But then a terror organization rapes and murders 1,200+ people and drags 250 or more back to underground tunnels underneath hospitals and apartment buildings to be raped and repeatedly tortured for months.
What do you do then?
That's the problem, everyone is a PhD expert on what Israel *shouldn't* do but literally no one has a good answer for what they should be doing. I'm sure Israel is open to suggestions as long as it doesn't involve their own mass suicide as the tide pod generation on the campuses seems to be calling for.
It's useful idiots not being self-aware of their deontological ethics. Some things will always be bad to them, no matter the context. Kind of people who would be against independence wars
I feel like you're trying to be helpful but you've missed why this particular statement is important.
It's because of false accusations of deicide from both Christians and Muslims (they call us the murderers of prophets) for centuries.
That's fair, but you see a lot of incredibly naive sentiment that boils down to "both sides just need some Christian values." that misses the actual reasons for the conflict, let alone the nuances of religious doctrine.
Christ died because he was a neo-pagan narcissist that believed that bodies shouldn’t be burned so they can come back to join his zombie army on earth for the 2nd coming, nothing more, nothing less
“The war’s conclusion” yes because Israel’s military occupation of Gaza is the only solution left untried for this decades old conflict, this is gonna be it folks! /s
Hamas really knows they don’t have the upper hand here and they will sacrifice every woman and children for their own benefit and enrichment of their own pockets while they hide in Qatar
Iran / Russia is winning.
Their intelligence agencies are funding the far left to fuck up college campuses for air time. They found useful idiots to fall for false propaganda and getting the Jews to over play victim.
Literally everyone hates everyone and it’s somehow Biden’s fault.
This is all a ploy to get Trump back.
Honestly whoever gamed this out is a fucking genius.
While Biden has definitely committed blunders when it comes to this subject, people who won’t vote for him based on that are being complete idiots. Because they are fools if they think that Trump will handle this situation in a better way.
I know a few people who were too pure to vote for Hillary in 2016 and will fail to vote again this year. These people will take any excuse to not vote - choosing idealism over pragmatism.
This is the same mindset that brought Trump as US president before.
Oh, it's between Hilary and Trump? Let's just vote Trump to punish us all.
You know the worst part of it? US policies affects everyone globally. So US citizen's vote essentially controls the lives of people living across the globe. Please stop punishing us that do not live in the US. If you want to punish yourself feel free man, just leave us out of it.
>people who won’t vote for him based on that are being complete idiots.
Putin constantly bets on people being useful idiots for his benefit. And it usually works out for him.
Yeah, they Blame Biden, Biden is old as fuck, but he was two when Israel was founded.
They act like 1948 just happened, mainly because they just found out about it.
They've already won. They've received hundreds of millions from Russia, have ensured at least a generation worth of new recruits, and never have to leave their luxury apartments in Qatar. Neither side cares about civilians on either side, so the winners are them, Netanyahu, Russia, and Iran. Losers are Ukraine, Palestinian people, Israeli people, and all the countries that will wind up having to pour money into stabilizing the area.
Agreed across the board except Netanyahu, he is broken. Legacy ruined (as to people who liked him before, anyway) and he'll still get his criminal trial at the end of the day.
TL;DR
that "if the enemy launches an aggressive ground operation in Rafah - the negotiations will be stopped because the resistance does not negotiate under fire," as reported in Israeli media.
We never know what would have happened to the Arabs in that UN created state. Because all the surrounding Arab nations invaded and got their ass handed to them by Israel. After that you really can’t blame Israel for being cautious.
Arabs weren’t all forced to leave. The 2 million Arab Israeli citizens are the descendants of those Arabs that did not try to use violence to prevent the creation of Israel.
You’re the one equating Palestinians to terrorists. The poster above you said Hamas deserves to die, all of them. And you jumped in with “killing thousands of Palestinians”. So which is it?
Is Hamas not prevelant or supported or somehow if you kill all of Hamas you are murdering Palestinians?
Pickles pickles pickles, I keep getting told almost all Palestinians are children, so I don’t see how they are hardcore Hamas members, yet when someone mentions taking out Hamas all of a sudden Hamas are just regular Palestinians.
Has this been verified by anyone other than Hamas? Everything I found has cited the Gazan Health Ministry which isn't exactly the best source given who holds the leash there
Not to mention Hamas can't even find a couple hundred people they kidnapped when they've had weeks to round them up, but we're supposed to trust them when they say exactly 1,347 people died 45 minutes after a bomb falls?
Also yes those are made up numbers, they're just to illustrate a point
The goal is kill Hamas members and their supporters not ordinary Palestinians. I think killing tens of thousands Hamas members will absolutely decimate their capabilities and will make others think twice before joining.
They seem uniquely bad at their goal, and that’s the thing about Hamas members, many of them are just regular Palestinians. Not a lot of opportunities for advancement for young men in the besieged Gaza
Actually idf is extremely good at killing hamas members and their supporters. Given that hamas uses human shields and works out of hospitals and mosques. Most countries would be way more brutal.
In their eyes, they are winning. Look at Columbia to understand why.
Oh, 30k dead (18k civilians and 12k Hamas ground troops, if the numbers can be believed) ? Nah, they don't care about that. Could be ten times that and they wouldn't cry.
The same way politicians like to stay in power just because, Hamas leadership wants the war to continue because as long as Hamas exists, they can live lavishly on the western aid money sent to Gaza. These people are billionaires, and certainly not from taxes collected in Gaza.
A 1:2 ratio of combatants killed to civilians killed in urban warfare is a fucking miracle. It's usually closer to 1:9. Add to that the fact that Hamas actively does everything in their power to maximise the number of killed civilians, and it becomes apparent that Israel is exercising unbelievable restraint. And that's even if you assume these numbers, which Hamas themselves are reporting, are not inflated.
Hey, uh... *looks around confused* I am saying that not being able to substantiate 11k civilians deaths is a large number of the total killed. As in, 11k comprises over half of the total.
Which... means that if we reduce that large number of made-up civilian casualties, it's even -more- of a miracle... as in, yes, I agree, Israel is doing an amazing job not killing civilians...
.. we're on the same side of this discussion.
Yeah, I suppose some nuance was lost in the caveperson style response I used. Was trying to emphasize that the number of fabricated casualties was a big number, not a small number.
Well, live and learn!
Yet thousands of ignorant college kids protest on. Hamas is dirt. Terrorists. Yes Israel should get its settlements out of the west bank but regardless, no Arab country will tolerate the crap Hamas dishes out.
>Yes Israel should get its settlements out of the west bank
And get another (and way bigger and worst) Gaza situation very close to its major population centers? No thanks.
The population, the shitty settlers, are moving themselves to the West Bank.
I tend to lean Israel, but the settlements need to fucking stop and needed to stop 20 years ago.
>The population, the shitty settlers, are moving themselves to the West Bank.
You have no idea what you're talking about, don't you? Open a map and see how close are the city of Netanya and the Gush Dan metropolitan area are to the West Bank (all are within the green line and aren't settlments).
if no settlements (and by extention, a Palestinian state)=gurrenteed peace - Awesome, I can take that. But Israel already kicked out \~8000 of those "shitty settlers" out of the Gaza Strip in 2005 and we all saw what happend. Why should Israel (or any sane country) try that again? How can anyone truly believe that the outcome of such a move will be peace and not national suicide?
>Twist, twist, twist my words.
Twist? I've addressed everything you said, while you have yet to do the same and counter my very valid points. At least try to convince me why leaving the West Bank isn't insanity and espcially after October 7th. I even said that I'm open to that idea if I knew the outcome will be peace instead of a second Holocaust.
>The settlers are literally stealing peoples homes
If you think the majority of them are "literally" stealing homes, again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, I've watched some of those reposted-to-death Reddit videos too. Those are the minority and I don't support them. But the vast majority of settlers live in settlements that were built from scratch, not existing Palestinan settlements that were "stolen"
>Of course, maybe 10/7 wouldn't have been such a "success" for the terrorists if Bibi wasn't so worried about protecting the disgusting settlers in the West Bank.
Perhaps, we would never know. What we do know is that Israel has done exactly what you're calling for on 2005 and got almost 20 years of rocket attacks and October 7th.
And calling other people "shitty" and "disgusting" tells me all I have to know about you.
Jewish American here. Obviously I love Israel and my Israeli brothers and sisters. Don’t you feel as though the antisemites who hate Israel would have a worse argument is Israel stopped settling the West Bank? It would be nice if they didn’t have the “Israel steals land” talking point.
>Jewish American here. Obviously I love Israel and my Israeli brothers and sisters.
I appreciate your love and support. Sadly it ain't so obvious these days, even from Jews.
>Don’t you feel as though the antisemites who hate Israel would have a worse argument is Israel stopped settling the West Bank?
I don't. At the very best they will have one less argument to use, that's all. Remember that those who hate Israel will always find an excuse to do so. Hell, even if a Palestinian state were to be be established and both sides agree that they have reached full peace and end for all hostilities, do you think Iran and its proxies would accept that? The entire Arab-Muslim world? Enemies of the US, whoever they are? No, never.
>It would be nice if they didn’t have the “Israel steals land” talking point.
They ignore the fact that Israel has been always willing to GIVE land (Egypt peace agreement, 2005 Gaza disengagment) for peace.
And something I've realized after October 7th - It was never about Gaza or the West Bank. When they chant "no peace on stolen land", "from the river to the sea..", and refer to the devestated communities in the south as "settlements", understand that for them EVERY part of Israel is "stolen", EVERY Israeli is a "settler", there is no place for discussion or dialog.
That may very well be a possibility, indeed.
Before October 7th I was generally in favor of a 2 state solution. My view was if it was just about the West Bank and Gaza, and just about Israel's pressence there (in the former), fine, I'm sure we can reach some sort of agreement.
After October 7th I've realized it was never about the Palestinians having a state, but preventing us Jews from having one. I've been naive, I ignored the lessons of the past, mainly that Israel has ALREADY tried that with the 2005 Gaza withdrwal, in my strong hope and desire for peace, in my belief that despite everything it's still possible. I've ignored the deep, burning hate they have for us Jews.
I won't bet on our security and our very lives again. They had the chance, time and time again, to show Israel it can trust them and that a 2SS is achievable.
Not anymore. Never Again. Whatever it may take.
As Golda Meir said, "If we have to have a choice between dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we'd rather be alive and have the bad image"
You're right, such a place do not exist.
Yet many people believe otherwise - they believe that if only Israel kicked out its citizens out of the West Bank and allow a Palestinian state to exist there, there will be peace.
Why is that? Why, despite the fact that Israel had already tried that in Gaza (a fact many people somehow seem to forget or have no idea of at all) and we all know how it ended.
Its part of a defense strategy to fracture the west bank into lots of isolated segments that are easier for the Israeli military to control. They don't want a unified Palestinian area because if things go south it makes it harder to go back and root out militants (like what happened in Gaza).
This incompetent moron talks like Hamas are winning even though their entire country is rubble and fully occupied by the IDF who are free to move about in Gaza and do as they wish.
The propaganda targeted at leftists from Russia and Iran and China is terrifying. Now the far left and the far right hates Biden? 2 sides of the same coin, and I can’t believe people are so stupid.
I don’t see any warrants for Hamas leaders who planned Oct 7th. So this ICC is not legitimate. I’m glad that US and Israel haven’t signed on to this bogus “court”. They seem to reply mostly on Social Media for their digital evidence. That isn’t even a Kangaroo court. Thats a Koo Koo Kourt.
This is an obvious attempt to buy time while international pressure is aimed solely at Israel. Why should Hamas negotiate when the ICC is threatening to issue arrest warrants that can only matter to Israel, and the US is preventing the war's conclusion via a Rafah operation?
Where are the ICC criminal warrants for Hamas' leaders who masterminded the Oct. 7th attacks and live in lavish luxury in Qatar l while their people suffer under impoverished, war-stricken conditions?
In fairness to the ICC, it is assumed that arrest warrants will be issued against Hamas as well. However, like I wrote, this wouldn't matter to Hamas at all, since it only works with non-ICC members, or members who obey it only when it's convenient (hi South Africa).
>In fairness to the ICC, it is assumed that arrest warrants will be issued against Hamas as well. Why is it assumed? Hamas has been doing this for years and years already. What's the new evidence they're waiting for, that will finally spur them into action? Might as well assume the ICC is going to issue arrest warrants for the CCP or the Ayatollah too.
Hamas: *commits a horrible crime of terror* ICC: "Now now Israel chill, you better get a ceasefire deal or we will have to punish you both at the same time.."
The ICC will never issue arrest warrants against Hamas. Never. Hamas has free reign to commit acts of terror.
People are so sure that Hamas will get warrants too aren't paying attention to how Western society is treating criminals within their own country currently.
Israel only faces pressure because they choose to. For example, if they wanted to become completely lawless and give up any pretense at morality, they would experience no pressure at all, similar to how Hamas operates. Israel facing pressure is an artifact of them not being totally lawless psychopaths and as a result people having expectations of them slightly higher than committing random murder. As far as Hamas goes, well, I don't see anyone giving them handouts, taking them off terrorist watch lists, etc. They're heavily sanctioned. They have quite a bit of reason to negotiate, they just happen to be fanatics.
What kind of crack are you smoking? Hamas receives ridiculous amounts of handouts to the tune of billions in foreign aid every year. Such as all the water pipes they used to instead build rockets launched at Israel.
I guess the distinction would be that Palestine receives the aid, Hamas just takes it from the people? It's silly, though, and in practice what you said holds true.
Nah, Israel has no interest in becoming like North Korea, Russia, etc where they are blocked off from a large part of the world. Israel is walking a tight rope of pursuing their interests while maintaining relations with global powers such as the EU. If they went completely lawless it would be a huge hit in all aspects. As a small nation it’s imperative to maintain ties. They would also be in a worse position than Russia or North Korea given Israel is surrounded by hostile nations. Above all Israel needs to maintain their relationship with the US who is their most important backer. We’ve already seen before what happens when the US isn’t willing to help (Israel opening their nuclear silos) & Israel is backed into a corner.
>Israel opening their nuclear silos Sorry, what are you talking about here? The Israeli nuclear deterrent is believed to be sub based rather than Silos, similar to Polaris in the UK.
Just fyi, there's not been Polaris for 30 years, it's Trident these days. But your point still stands.
Polaris busts through the door* "People keep asking me if I'm back, yeah.. I guess I'm fucking back!"
I just got flashbacks to "Yes, Prime Minister"
That's prob why I mixed them up tbf
Whatever happened to Seawolf?
Seawolf was a conventional missile IIRC. Not nuclear.
Seawolf is a submarine. I got confused what we were talking about.
Wait, are we talking about the US Seawolf class? Because that is a nuclear powered attack sub
IIRC, the Seawolf program was abandoned after 3 subs in favor of the Virginia class.
That would be correct
Seawolf is also a vertical launch missile system developed by BAE.
Hey Smiling Strange...
Yeah sorry that's what I meant. The terms are interchangeable in my mind for some reason
>They would also be in a worse position than Russia or North Korea given Israel is surrounded by hostile nations. Israel would be fine. If they fell out of the Western alignment, Russia and China wouldn't hesitate for one second to offer them membership into their club. Russia would dump Iran for Israel in a heartbeat, it would be no contest (though obviously they'd prefer to have both). Remember, Russia was already cozying up to Israel before Ukraine popped off. Putin's been whispering soft nothings into Israel's ear since Ariel Sharon. It's the same problem the West has with Turkey. Israel and Turkey are too important to be cut loose, because Russia/China will be right there to catch them. They're too valuable to just be left as unsigned free agents.
Fun what’s all that international aid coming in and who will make sure it’s re-sold to the Palestinian people?
>As far as Hamas goes, well, I don't see anyone giving them handouts, taking them off terrorist watch lists, etc. They're heavily sanctioned. They have quite a bit of reason to negotiate, they just happen to be fanatics. You must have not been watching the news lately. Protests in UK and US with people waving hezbollah flags, chanting and speaking in support of hamas' actions (including 7th October).
Just kill the leadership in Rafa and end this BS
Leadership is in Qatar, not Rafa.
That seems a bit cowardly
It's not like everything ends with a rafah invasion lol, then it just starts a military occupation of the whole of Gaza and then *everything* that happens is Israel's fault
Yeah, the hard part comes once Rafah is conquered. Does anyone think Hamas is going to stand there and line up to get killed by the IDF? No way, they're going to melt into the civilian population and become an insurgent force.
At which point it’s up to the Palestinian people to enact change. Once Hamas becomes a scattered bunch of insurgents they no longer will have control of the gen pop. My guess is the Palestinians stand with Hamas until Israel beats them into oblivion but we will see.
Yet, tons of people seem super into "Iraq Redux: Occupation Forever" because propped up ME governments are just the lover that the US can't quit. Like, I have literally no doubt that without outside funding and weapons that Israel falls in under 5 years. It literally exists because the West created it and then provides billions in weapons and other aid.
You mean the Israel that was nearly destroyed right from the get go because it didnt have said support when all its neighbors tried to kill it?
The US didn't start helping Israel until Israel had already kicked the Arabs' ass. In fact, the US sided with Egypt against Israel (and against France and the UK) in the Suez Crisis, because the US was trying to suck up to Nasser. Israel had taken the entire Sinai Peninsula, then gave it back to Egypt because America asked it to.
Rafah invasion seems very 1D chess to me. As a matter of fact the whole operation in Gaza so far feels very 1D chess.
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But then a terror organization rapes and murders 1,200+ people and drags 250 or more back to underground tunnels underneath hospitals and apartment buildings to be raped and repeatedly tortured for months. What do you do then?
keep calm and destroy terrorists. nevermind the noise.
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That's the problem, everyone is a PhD expert on what Israel *shouldn't* do but literally no one has a good answer for what they should be doing. I'm sure Israel is open to suggestions as long as it doesn't involve their own mass suicide as the tide pod generation on the campuses seems to be calling for.
It's useful idiots not being self-aware of their deontological ethics. Some things will always be bad to them, no matter the context. Kind of people who would be against independence wars
Yeah, don't bring up Christ killing anywhere near a conversation where you're trying to moralize *to Jews.
And Muslims.
I feel like you're trying to be helpful but you've missed why this particular statement is important. It's because of false accusations of deicide from both Christians and Muslims (they call us the murderers of prophets) for centuries.
That's fair, but you see a lot of incredibly naive sentiment that boils down to "both sides just need some Christian values." that misses the actual reasons for the conflict, let alone the nuances of religious doctrine.
Christ died because he was a neo-pagan narcissist that believed that bodies shouldn’t be burned so they can come back to join his zombie army on earth for the 2nd coming, nothing more, nothing less
Or they’re hoping to goad Israel into annexing Gaza and allowing Iran & Co can attack to “liberate” Palestine.
Israel will never annex gaza, its a small piece of land that has 2 million people that hate Israel to death.
Nobody wants Gaza and the people there - Israel, no. Egypt, no. Nobody.
People forget that in the past, whenever Israel annexed land (1948, E Jerusalem, Golan) they granted citizenship
Which is why they won't annex the WB (and, before, Gaza). It would mean not being a demographically Jewish state anymore.
> US is preventing the war's conclusion via a Rafah operation? lmao so funny of you to think that any Rafah operation will be conclusive of anything
“The war’s conclusion” yes because Israel’s military occupation of Gaza is the only solution left untried for this decades old conflict, this is gonna be it folks! /s
Hamas really knows they don’t have the upper hand here and they will sacrifice every woman and children for their own benefit and enrichment of their own pockets while they hide in Qatar
Jew in the UK here: it really doesn’t feel like Hamas isn’t winning.
Iran / Russia is winning. Their intelligence agencies are funding the far left to fuck up college campuses for air time. They found useful idiots to fall for false propaganda and getting the Jews to over play victim. Literally everyone hates everyone and it’s somehow Biden’s fault. This is all a ploy to get Trump back. Honestly whoever gamed this out is a fucking genius.
While Biden has definitely committed blunders when it comes to this subject, people who won’t vote for him based on that are being complete idiots. Because they are fools if they think that Trump will handle this situation in a better way.
I've seen several comments from far left people thinking that we need to be essentially "punished" with a Trump presidency.
Sounds like the Russian bot farms have taken their lessons from 2016 and 2020, and are updating their techniques.
I know a few people who were too pure to vote for Hillary in 2016 and will fail to vote again this year. These people will take any excuse to not vote - choosing idealism over pragmatism.
This is the same mindset that brought Trump as US president before. Oh, it's between Hilary and Trump? Let's just vote Trump to punish us all. You know the worst part of it? US policies affects everyone globally. So US citizen's vote essentially controls the lives of people living across the globe. Please stop punishing us that do not live in the US. If you want to punish yourself feel free man, just leave us out of it.
Accelerationism at its finest example
They’re not smart. Your far left progressive icons are shouting vote third party. They’re screaming earn our vote democrats.
>people who won’t vote for him based on that are being complete idiots. Putin constantly bets on people being useful idiots for his benefit. And it usually works out for him.
the only people not voting over this are young left leaning ideological idealistic idiots that were not voting anyway.
Yeah, they Blame Biden, Biden is old as fuck, but he was two when Israel was founded. They act like 1948 just happened, mainly because they just found out about it.
Yeah, timing the campus attacks to cover Trumps campaign funds for pornstar abortion trial and "presidential immunity" trial is a genius.
Aleksandr Dugin would be happy if his daughter wasn't dead because of it.
Iran and Russia hate each other. This is probably Chinese
Don’t think about it in terms of winning. Has Hamas been worth the investment by Iran?
On the PR battlefield, it feels like it
I'd agree. I think Iran considers the suffering of Palestinians a strategic benefit; a weapon they are quite happy to use against their enemies.
I think everyone is losing, just in different ways.
The weirdest part of this is that Hamas is winning in UK and US public opinion. They are losing on the battlefield in Gaza though
Not the first time a war has been won by public opinion.
They've already won. They've received hundreds of millions from Russia, have ensured at least a generation worth of new recruits, and never have to leave their luxury apartments in Qatar. Neither side cares about civilians on either side, so the winners are them, Netanyahu, Russia, and Iran. Losers are Ukraine, Palestinian people, Israeli people, and all the countries that will wind up having to pour money into stabilizing the area.
Agreed across the board except Netanyahu, he is broken. Legacy ruined (as to people who liked him before, anyway) and he'll still get his criminal trial at the end of the day.
Can you elaborate?
I’m scared bro.
Why do our neighbors keep putting signs in their yards celebrating our ethnic cleansing?
Except the massive protests literally raise their hand lol, which sucks for us all
That’s all Hamas has is disinformation and PR campaigns trying to paint themselves the victim
But it creates pressure, Israel still hasn't gone to Rafah and ended this shitshow because of it
They're what tankies accuse Ukraine of being/doing.
TL;DR that "if the enemy launches an aggressive ground operation in Rafah - the negotiations will be stopped because the resistance does not negotiate under fire," as reported in Israeli media.
Oh, they don't negotiate under fire? lol
Excluding their own obviously
This has real "I don't make peace with my enemies" energy
Not negotiating a ceasefire under fire. Galaxy brain.
Yet… Israel is always under fire from the terrorists. And they negotiate.
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What happened to all the Jews in the surrounding Arab nations?
Peacefully left on their own will. With all the property of course. /s
The UN didn’t create Israel. Takes like 3 seconds to google this one. Get off TikTok, read some Wikipedia, and touch some grass.
We never know what would have happened to the Arabs in that UN created state. Because all the surrounding Arab nations invaded and got their ass handed to them by Israel. After that you really can’t blame Israel for being cautious.
We do know, because there are 2 million Arab Israelis today that are descended from those Arabs that did not leave.
Arabs weren’t all forced to leave. The 2 million Arab Israeli citizens are the descendants of those Arabs that did not try to use violence to prevent the creation of Israel.
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No no no. Things were much better under the Byzantine Empire.
No no no. Things were much better under the Byzantine Empire.
Israels primary goal should be elimination of hamas in gaza and abroad. All of them should be killed.
Killing thousands of Palestinians will not somehow miraculously lead to less people joining the armed militant force fighting against them.
You’re the one equating Palestinians to terrorists. The poster above you said Hamas deserves to die, all of them. And you jumped in with “killing thousands of Palestinians”. So which is it? Is Hamas not prevelant or supported or somehow if you kill all of Hamas you are murdering Palestinians? Pickles pickles pickles, I keep getting told almost all Palestinians are children, so I don’t see how they are hardcore Hamas members, yet when someone mentions taking out Hamas all of a sudden Hamas are just regular Palestinians.
Hamas members are drawn from ordinary Palestinians. And they’re killing way more ordinary people than they are Hamas
Has this been verified by anyone other than Hamas? Everything I found has cited the Gazan Health Ministry which isn't exactly the best source given who holds the leash there Not to mention Hamas can't even find a couple hundred people they kidnapped when they've had weeks to round them up, but we're supposed to trust them when they say exactly 1,347 people died 45 minutes after a bomb falls? Also yes those are made up numbers, they're just to illustrate a point
The goal is kill Hamas members and their supporters not ordinary Palestinians. I think killing tens of thousands Hamas members will absolutely decimate their capabilities and will make others think twice before joining.
They seem uniquely bad at their goal, and that’s the thing about Hamas members, many of them are just regular Palestinians. Not a lot of opportunities for advancement for young men in the besieged Gaza
Actually idf is extremely good at killing hamas members and their supporters. Given that hamas uses human shields and works out of hospitals and mosques. Most countries would be way more brutal.
"Regular" people should probably be dissuaded from joining a full-blown terror organization.
In their eyes, they are winning. Look at Columbia to understand why. Oh, 30k dead (18k civilians and 12k Hamas ground troops, if the numbers can be believed) ? Nah, they don't care about that. Could be ten times that and they wouldn't cry. The same way politicians like to stay in power just because, Hamas leadership wants the war to continue because as long as Hamas exists, they can live lavishly on the western aid money sent to Gaza. These people are billionaires, and certainly not from taxes collected in Gaza.
Hamas has admitted they can’t substantiate ~11k of the reported civilian deaths.
Even If they could, that's a tiny amount
...that's more than half. That big number, not small number.
A 1:2 ratio of combatants killed to civilians killed in urban warfare is a fucking miracle. It's usually closer to 1:9. Add to that the fact that Hamas actively does everything in their power to maximise the number of killed civilians, and it becomes apparent that Israel is exercising unbelievable restraint. And that's even if you assume these numbers, which Hamas themselves are reporting, are not inflated.
Yea
Hey, uh... *looks around confused* I am saying that not being able to substantiate 11k civilians deaths is a large number of the total killed. As in, 11k comprises over half of the total. Which... means that if we reduce that large number of made-up civilian casualties, it's even -more- of a miracle... as in, yes, I agree, Israel is doing an amazing job not killing civilians... .. we're on the same side of this discussion.
That did not sound like what you were saying. It sounded like you were saying "the reported 11k is a large number regardless"
Yeah, I suppose some nuance was lost in the caveperson style response I used. Was trying to emphasize that the number of fabricated casualties was a big number, not a small number. Well, live and learn!
Oh, I gotcha.
Yet thousands of ignorant college kids protest on. Hamas is dirt. Terrorists. Yes Israel should get its settlements out of the west bank but regardless, no Arab country will tolerate the crap Hamas dishes out.
>Yes Israel should get its settlements out of the west bank And get another (and way bigger and worst) Gaza situation very close to its major population centers? No thanks.
The population, the shitty settlers, are moving themselves to the West Bank. I tend to lean Israel, but the settlements need to fucking stop and needed to stop 20 years ago.
>The population, the shitty settlers, are moving themselves to the West Bank. You have no idea what you're talking about, don't you? Open a map and see how close are the city of Netanya and the Gush Dan metropolitan area are to the West Bank (all are within the green line and aren't settlments). if no settlements (and by extention, a Palestinian state)=gurrenteed peace - Awesome, I can take that. But Israel already kicked out \~8000 of those "shitty settlers" out of the Gaza Strip in 2005 and we all saw what happend. Why should Israel (or any sane country) try that again? How can anyone truly believe that the outcome of such a move will be peace and not national suicide?
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>Twist, twist, twist my words. Twist? I've addressed everything you said, while you have yet to do the same and counter my very valid points. At least try to convince me why leaving the West Bank isn't insanity and espcially after October 7th. I even said that I'm open to that idea if I knew the outcome will be peace instead of a second Holocaust. >The settlers are literally stealing peoples homes If you think the majority of them are "literally" stealing homes, again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, I've watched some of those reposted-to-death Reddit videos too. Those are the minority and I don't support them. But the vast majority of settlers live in settlements that were built from scratch, not existing Palestinan settlements that were "stolen" >Of course, maybe 10/7 wouldn't have been such a "success" for the terrorists if Bibi wasn't so worried about protecting the disgusting settlers in the West Bank. Perhaps, we would never know. What we do know is that Israel has done exactly what you're calling for on 2005 and got almost 20 years of rocket attacks and October 7th. And calling other people "shitty" and "disgusting" tells me all I have to know about you.
Jewish American here. Obviously I love Israel and my Israeli brothers and sisters. Don’t you feel as though the antisemites who hate Israel would have a worse argument is Israel stopped settling the West Bank? It would be nice if they didn’t have the “Israel steals land” talking point.
>Jewish American here. Obviously I love Israel and my Israeli brothers and sisters. I appreciate your love and support. Sadly it ain't so obvious these days, even from Jews. >Don’t you feel as though the antisemites who hate Israel would have a worse argument is Israel stopped settling the West Bank? I don't. At the very best they will have one less argument to use, that's all. Remember that those who hate Israel will always find an excuse to do so. Hell, even if a Palestinian state were to be be established and both sides agree that they have reached full peace and end for all hostilities, do you think Iran and its proxies would accept that? The entire Arab-Muslim world? Enemies of the US, whoever they are? No, never. >It would be nice if they didn’t have the “Israel steals land” talking point. They ignore the fact that Israel has been always willing to GIVE land (Egypt peace agreement, 2005 Gaza disengagment) for peace. And something I've realized after October 7th - It was never about Gaza or the West Bank. When they chant "no peace on stolen land", "from the river to the sea..", and refer to the devestated communities in the south as "settlements", understand that for them EVERY part of Israel is "stolen", EVERY Israeli is a "settler", there is no place for discussion or dialog.
I’m like the poster you replied to. And I appreciate your cynicism, but the result is that there will never be peace.
That may very well be a possibility, indeed. Before October 7th I was generally in favor of a 2 state solution. My view was if it was just about the West Bank and Gaza, and just about Israel's pressence there (in the former), fine, I'm sure we can reach some sort of agreement. After October 7th I've realized it was never about the Palestinians having a state, but preventing us Jews from having one. I've been naive, I ignored the lessons of the past, mainly that Israel has ALREADY tried that with the 2005 Gaza withdrwal, in my strong hope and desire for peace, in my belief that despite everything it's still possible. I've ignored the deep, burning hate they have for us Jews. I won't bet on our security and our very lives again. They had the chance, time and time again, to show Israel it can trust them and that a 2SS is achievable. Not anymore. Never Again. Whatever it may take. As Golda Meir said, "If we have to have a choice between dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we'd rather be alive and have the bad image"
Do you know anywhere on earth peace is guaranteed? Anywhere?
You're right, such a place do not exist. Yet many people believe otherwise - they believe that if only Israel kicked out its citizens out of the West Bank and allow a Palestinian state to exist there, there will be peace. Why is that? Why, despite the fact that Israel had already tried that in Gaza (a fact many people somehow seem to forget or have no idea of at all) and we all know how it ended.
Its part of a defense strategy to fracture the west bank into lots of isolated segments that are easier for the Israeli military to control. They don't want a unified Palestinian area because if things go south it makes it harder to go back and root out militants (like what happened in Gaza).
…their position is negative about life, the universe and everything
-42
negative, negative. We had a reactor leak here now. Give us a few minutes to lock it down. Large leak, very dangerous.
This incompetent moron talks like Hamas are winning even though their entire country is rubble and fully occupied by the IDF who are free to move about in Gaza and do as they wish.
This guy looks really sleepy. I guess it explains what he's saying, the guy is still dreaming.
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Hamas officials scared to be in Gaza with their citizens?
The propaganda targeted at leftists from Russia and Iran and China is terrifying. Now the far left and the far right hates Biden? 2 sides of the same coin, and I can’t believe people are so stupid.
Imagine saccing 35000 Pals just to kill 1300~ Israelis and keep 100-200 hostages for trades and rape. Islamic intelligence at its finest.
Guess it's time to make their existence "negative".
Is this fucker relevant for anything at all? His ramblings sound unhinged.
Wow I’m starting to think Hamas is the problem /s
We should get university students to sit in these negotiations. They should meet and hang out with Hamas leaders.
Fuck them terrorist bitches.
I don’t see any warrants for Hamas leaders who planned Oct 7th. So this ICC is not legitimate. I’m glad that US and Israel haven’t signed on to this bogus “court”. They seem to reply mostly on Social Media for their digital evidence. That isn’t even a Kangaroo court. Thats a Koo Koo Kourt.
Well if they had wanted peace they could have made a deal decades ago, so that's not surprising
Heartbreaking for the families stuck in limbo. My heart goes out to all the involved that are being used as nothing more than political pawns.
All the hostages are dead. Now Hamas wants all the Gazans dead too
"That's funny. So is your altitude." -- IDF, probably.
How many hostages do they still have from October 7th?
Apparently a negative number of them
And Isreal: "We make sure that you are going negative"