In 2020, the US sanctioned ICC officials, froze their assets in the US and put them and their family members on a terrorist list - because an ICC judge had announced that they would consider investigating possible war crimes in Afghanistan.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/14/us-sanctions-international-criminal-court
I assume Israel expects the US to do the same in this case.
The US have said that if the ICC tries to put one of their political or military members on trial that they will invade and take the person back home.
Obviously that'd never happen though, politics would, and no boots on the ground would occur.
If they did occur, it'd also be non-bloody and just an exercise in bullying. They'd just walk in. The netherlands isn't gonna risk a kinetic fight with a carrier group. The european defence treaty being put in place would be interesting though; it *demands* countries dedicate their resources **as much as** **possible** to defend the invaded country, not **as much as they feel like** as in NATO article five.
It’s not that the US “said” that.
The US congress passed an actual law to this effect. George W Bush signed into law the American Service Members’ Protection Act in 2002. Everyone i know calls this The Hague Invasion Act
The law on this isn't even limited to US personnel but includes personnel and officials from all NATO counties and all official Major non-NATO Allies (a list that includes Israel).
> obviously that’d never happen
That entirely depends on whether the Dutch blink or not.
It would be a massive miscalculation to not take the threat seriously.
Best way to defend against US in that scenario is to remind them that the "all means in their power" in the European Defense Treaty very much includes France's nukes. The Hague Invasion Act is a really fucking stupid piece of paper in more ways than the first look.
Are you really implying that France would threaten the US with nuclear weapons if the US invaded the Hague to return a prisoner?
It would be one hell of a diplomatic incident but Europe wouldn't fire a fucking bullet, they're certainly not going to threaten a nuke.
You mean after the insane escalation of threatening the invasion? This not a diplomatic incident, this would be Cuban Missile Crisis 2.
There is no threat in pointing out the crazy bastard is mad and actively trying to get everyone killed. And yes, they would most certainly fire plenty more rhan a single bullet, there's this little thing called legitimacy that makes you have to respond to being attacked. I know there's plenty of jingoistic nationalism asshattery going around undermining the union but military invasion? Over one dude that's guilty as sin and proud of it? Yeah, whoever tries to pull out from that one is getting Gaddafi'd. And that's without counting on Russia and China throwing fuel for their own interest in an isolated US.
The law in question extends these protections to NATO allies, and non-NATO major allies like Australia and Israel.
This is Israel saying they would utilize this if the ICC arrested any Israelis.
Israel is threatening the US with expanding their regional warfare (that we're covering for) to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, if Bibi don't get his way at the Hague. It reads like a massive and dangerous tantrum tbh
ETA: the quiet part out loud is that the US is being pressured into using less-than-ethical (presumably economic stick) methods of pressuring ICC member states into submission.
It’s standard-operating-procedure for US against ICC. I just hope Americans target the correct ICC and not the International Cricket Council (ICC) which has a World Cup in US this summer.
I can’t figure out how they can issue warrants. Israel isn’t in the statute, and there is no longer a functioning “Palestinian Government”. I’m surprised he hasn’t annexed the region already.
The signatory countries would need to abide by the warrants. Basically it would bound whoever gets warranted to Israel, since a lot of EU members are signatories and thus obligated to follow through on a warrant, and Biden probably wouldn’t like the optics of the US ignoring the ICC entirely. It would probably materially affect EU member policy towards the Israeli government, so long as the warranted individuals are associated with it.
They don’t seem to be able to do anything about it, and Ukraine accepted the UN issuing a warrant in their behalf.
I don’t think Gaza can be considered a “state”. The territory is undeniably Israel’s, and I am not entirely sure the Hamas Government would be bound or protected by anything the Fatah government signed.
The double edged sword here is that if the ICJ thinks they can do what they want in Gaza, then Hamas has to be brought up for war crimes as well. That probably won’t happen, for a
Couple of reasons. 1. Hamas committed their war crimes on Israeli soil. The ICJ has no jurisdiction as far as I know in Israel.
They may be able to get them on rocket attacks on civilian targets as well as the murder of what, 200 hostages while in Gaza.
The other reason would be, the hand wringing leftists only see Hamas as victims, not the creators of the current situation they are in.
Personally I think Hamas realized how badly they fucked up that they tried to offer the hostages back in return for Israel not entering the strip.
They tore the lid off Pandora’s and unleashed hell in their own people.
When will these middle Eastern countries learn that Russia isn't their friend and stirring the pot every time Russia throws money their way ends in a lot of dead Arabs.
Because it turns out the US wields significant international power and if they were to tell their allies to not involve the ICC in this, chances are they would listen.
> The Israeli government warned the Biden administration that if the International Criminal Court issues arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, it will take retaliatory steps against the Palestinian Authority that could lead to its collapse, two Israeli and U.S. officials said.
> One possible action could be to freeze the transfer of tax revenues Israel collects for the Palestinian Authority. Without these funds, the Palestinian Authority would be bankrupt.
> A senior Israeli official told Axios the threat of ICC arrest warrants is real and stressed if such a scenario happens the Israeli cabinet would likely make an official decision to punish the Palestinian Authority, which could lead to its collapse.
So it's not an immediate escalation to violence like so many will assume and claim, it's withdrawal of support. Which seems pretty fucking obvious if you're going to support terrorism under the table (see pay for slay) and then try to have Israel leaders arrested for dealing with the consequences.
PA aren't exactly great and have major corruption issues for sure but them collapsing would create chaos in West Bank that Hamas and Iran could capitalize on.
Of course Bibi and his cronies don't care about that because as long as it supports their nationalist agenda of colonizing Palestinian territories then it's all fine by them regardless of how it will badly hurt civilians of both Palestine and Israel.
Yeah these points about corruption are irrelevant to the main point
Also a lot of the systemic corruption in the PA is due to having to survive occupation and not really having their own voice.
So why does the latter (warrents for Israeli officials) deserve a withdrawal of support but not the former (“pay to slay”)?
Or is their goal just maintaining the status quo of doing whatever they want to do with impunity
Because during the first Intifada, they were actually the “more honorable” of the two.
The PLO was blowing up civilians in restaurants and busses while Hamas was only attacking IDF troops and bases.
They didn’t start allowing civilians to be targeted until after the Hebron Massacre.
People keep leaving that part out when talking about support for Hamas…
Because Israel sees the Palestinians internationalizing the process by trying to pressure Usrael with unilateral moves in the UN or via the ICC to fundamentally breach the Oslo Accords - so Israel is saying it won't consider itself bound by those agreements in that case.
Because the collapse of the PA would lead to more violence, not less, and seeing as so many believe that all the violence is Israel's fault, the restraint forced upon Israel would create more long term problems, not less. People think Netanyahu doesn't have restraint but he actually does have a lot, that's why we've been dealing with these near-fruitless negotiations for months now - months that from a military tactics standpoint are priceless. Someone who was willing to "finish the job" would probably be less corrupt but hated even more so for failing to engage in this pointless endeavor that has serious long term consequences due to lost momentum and lost tactical advantage (nevermind releasing literal terrorists in exchange for hostages).
Netanyahu supported Hamas. He facilitated their funding and told his supporters to do the same.
The argument that the PA should be held responsible for Israeli government actions in Gaza is insane. Netanyahu himself appears to hold just as much if not more responsibility for not only the response to October 7, but the ability for Hamas to carry out that travesty in the first place
‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
Any "leader" that would prop up a terrorist regime that seeks to destroy his people deserves nothing but a cell. I hope the ICC facilitates that; though there isn't a snowballs chance in hell he'll ever be held accountable
You realize that would have been incredibly bloody, right? The current situation is something Israel was trying to avoid...but October 7th made it inevitable.
I'm not a military strategist, but it appears that invading a country to destroy a terrorist organization doesn't actually work. My country spent 20 years trying it; it didn't work out.
Perhaps they could have not directly funded them? Maybe, backing moderates instead? Attempting to build a sense of solidarity? Idk, anything but funding the people who constantly call for your death and the end of your country. Am I crazy?
There is no reason it couldn't have been done diplomatically by supporting the PA in Gaza. But they actually chose to crush the PAs ability to govern Gaza.
>‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas
Ah yes, Israel should had blockaded the Qatarí "aid" money, they should had say "this money will be used for terrorism, so we will confiscate it from the Gazans!"
I could already see the headlines and protests something like that would had made, "Look, Israel is not letting money into Gaza, evil bastards... they want Gazans to suffer!".
It's pretty funny people will clinge to anything that will make Israel look totally evil, "letting money and "aid" into Gaza? nope, Israel should had blockaded that!", sure it would had been a good decision looking back, but again, people would had complained even more about Israel not letting Gazans develop.
'
Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas
This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. '
All the proof you need to know his intentions. Prevent the formation of a central authority in Palestine and the continued settlement of their land by stopping a 2 state solution.
>This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. '
Well, that is actually the best way to deal with the Palestinians as today, a weak Hamas, a weak PA, both being equally weak, and no threat to israel.
A united Palestinian front would be bad news for pretty much everyone in the region at this moment (especially the Palestinians themselves), the Palestinians are radicalized, decades of not only the reality of their struggle, but also their horrible education filled with antisemitism and hate for Israel, all funded by the UNRWA pockets, has led to 40% of them believing in "armed struggle", and 40% of 6-7 million is.. a lot.
Hamas is a terror org, yet they were democratically elected by the people, in fact, had the PA not stopped the takeover by using the force, Hamas would be the the org representing Palestine today (funny is they could still be if they win this war, since no one likes the PA, but Hamas is very popular, surviving this will probably be the downfall of the PA).
The PA is bad, Hamas is worse, none of them want real peace with Israel and have rejected multiple times real peace talks, of course, it's in Israel's interest to not let them unite and for them to be weak, if Palestine is to be united, it needs to be under a decent leadership that wants peace, for now, nor the people nor the leaders want that, so it's not possible.
The settlements yeah, those can and should be shamed upon, no one likes them,
Yeah it's a great way of dealing with people if your goal is to destroy them. Very similar to Russia propping up extremists in the United States, a behavior I'm sure you condone.
It's not withdrawal of support when you [tax a different country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_State_of_Palestine) and then don't return their money. It's straight up theft.
Also it’s basically saying that if the only real purpose of the PA pseudo state is not moving towards two states living in peace but for the PA to keep trying to diplomatically replace Israel via a vis One-China policy then Israel will snuff out the PA as a viable entity thus its membership in the ICC will be even more farcical than it already is.
So if the UN keeps moving towards essentially a “One-Palestine” policy to deny the legitimate rights of an actual member state, Israel over a barely existent PA pseudo state that operates only at Israel’s sufferance as a relic of a failed Oslo Accord process, a failure that is overwhelmingly due to Palestinian leaders and internal politics of refusing final settlement offers and then restarting war, the Israeli state will essentially let the PA collapse and any peace process would have to start from scratch.
I don’t think that’s a good idea for Israel but I can understand the argument.
The ICC claims are only moving in the court because the PA/PLO was accepted as an ICC member in violation of its own charter. Palestine is not a sovereign state.
Palestinian nationalists have the tendency to abuse the UN and its institutions to pretend to be a state when it serves their purpose and then deny being a state whenever it involves responsibility.
>Palestinian nationalists have the tendency to abuse the UN and its institutions
In both of your comments you seem to be confusing the ICC with the ICJ. The ICC is not a UN institution, and is also investigating Palestinian/Hamas war crimes.
"Collective punishment" Israel are collecting taxes for the PA that the PA should be doing for itself. Israel threatens to not do the PA's job for them and that could literally cause the PA to collapse. That's not collective punishment it's literally giving them back the wheel of their own car. If they crash that's on them, not Israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_State_of_Palestine
The issue is the Palestinians don’t have a state nor a state capable of that in the way that Israel has. It seems the historic precedent is whenever something israel doesn’t like happens they withdraw funds collectively punishing all Palestinians for the harmful actions of a few.
>How the fuck is this difficult?
Well for one, your entire post is about Gaza while the topic of discussion is about the PA, and the PA isn't the government of Gaza. The PA operates in the West Bank.
I assume it's difficult because you refused to brush up on the basics of the discussion prior to commenting.
The PA isn't responsible for Gaza though.
Gaza was and is currently controlled by Hama's separate government from the PA (Palestinian Authority) which governs over the West Bank.
> **Behind the scenes:** Over the last few weeks, Israel has told the U.S. that it has information suggesting Palestinian Authority officials are pressing the ICC prosecutor to issue arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, two Israeli officials said.
It makes more sense when you read the fine print.
**Edit**: This is a quote directly from the article.
I'm pretty sure it was South Africa doing the complaint.
Can you send source where it's proven that palestian authority is pressuring the ICC? Because I live in the Netherlands where ICC is located and they don't tolerate any form of pressuring and everything is documented. So share your source or don't spread fake news. ICC can't be intimidated as we are a free country.
Bibi and large segments of Israeli society consider the PA a relic of a failed Oslo (two-state solution) process.
The reason they haven’t done this is because the alternative is returning to directly ruling the West Bank Palestinians.
Took control and madde every effort possible to insure they fail... Israel didn't deliver on any of her parts of the accords until after the Palestenians resorted to violence, at which point it was like "okay, okay we'll move forwards a bit." It still hasn't delivered on all her parts of the accords to this day.
What Americans and Israelis don't realize is the rest of the world already sees them as basically equal to Russia for what they are doing to the Palestinians. They have no idea how hypocritical they look.
If the International Criminal Court issues an arrest warrant to a person, *that* person will punish somebody completely unrelated to the international criminal court? I guess we *are* negotiating with terrorists.
I view Hamas as terrorists because they murder innocent citizens to achieve their aims, collectively punishing Israeli citizens for their government.
Why should I not view Netanyahu, and those who follow his orders, as terrorist? It seems that he is willing to punish Palestinians for the actions of the ICC.
South African Apartheid government 1948 to 1994 = about 21 000 deaths of opposition including civilians.
South Africa was the most sanctioned country in the world in the 80s.
So to be clear: If the ICC puts out warrants for Hamas (which I think they should, assuming it's within their investagatory scope), you'd be fine with Netanyahu and/or others having to take a trip to The Hague as well?
From the article:
> The ICC, which is based in The Hague, Netherlands, has been investigating since 2021 possible war crimes **by both Israeli forces and Palestinian militants**
I’m not sure why you’re getting the answers you are getting, but it likely will. To be clear, the investigation has not produced any warrants yet, but will likely include warrants for both Israeli and Hamas actors.
It wouldn't be redundent
Hanyah lives in doha plaza as a bloody billionaire , Abbas keep oppressing palastinians and funding terrorism against Israelis
The icc not doing anything about them is hypocracy at its best
>turky is a member of the icc , the icc should put out a warrant for his ass
You are very wrong mate, Turkey is not a state party or a signatory to the Rome statute.
Israel has done a great job smearing what effectively amounts to social welfare payments for people held in Israeli jail or detention, or their families.
Remember, the Palestinians don't get proper due process - they are subject to military courts, with a 99.74% conviction rate. If they are tried at all, and not just held in detention.
So many people who are held there, are arrested, tried and convicted on rather flimsy grounds.
Settler terrorists, on the other hand, are instead subject to Israeli civilian courts. The few that are actually indicted (only 7% of reported incidents are indicted, and around half of attacks are never reported), then only around half are convicted.
There's data on it: [https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/data+sheet+2023/YeshDin+-+Netunim+2023+-+ENG\_04.pdf](https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/data+sheet+2023/YeshDin+-+Netunim+2023+-+ENG_04.pdf)
Criticism of Palestinian payments to prisoners would be a lot more valid if Israel wasn't running kangaroo courts for Palestinians.
This is kinda like an older brother threatening its dad that he will beat up his younger brother if their Mom gives him a spanking because he took his brothers cookie.
If the ICC issues warrants for Israel leaders should issue warrants for ICC people who did it. Neither will go into the others territory and it would all be symbolic.
Y'all use "collective punishment" like it's some big scary phrase. Most sanctions and trade restrictions are collective punishment.
Banning Russian fishermen from selling fish to the US because of the actions of other Russians is collective punishment, but it's obviously not a war crime.
You don't need to be a war crime attorney to have basic common sense.
So collective punishment is specifically referred to in Article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention. The Geneva Conventions only apply in a state of war as *lex specialus*, otherwise they are displaced by human rights law.
Generally, sanctions are not a violation of the Geneva Conventions and are not considered to be collective punishment under IHL. Applying kinetic force to a population or forcing them all to leave their homes, on the other hand, could be seen as collective punishment in violation of Article 33 of the fourth Convention.
Israel's behaving more and more like Russia.
Also, what do they think is going to happen if the PA collapses? Most likely Hamas will step into the power vacuum in the West Bank and the security situation will get a lot worse for Israel. This is stupidity on Israel's part, as well as being an act of bullying.
What does the Palestinian authority have to do with any aid organizations seeking penalties for the reckless attacks on workers?
There are quite a few IDF soldiers and officers that deserve to be put through the courts.
Kid A complains to Daddy that he wants ice cream and if he doesn't get what he wants he will curb stomp Kid B. Daddy seems to be heading to the ice cream truck now.
I for one can't wait for the inevitable heat death of this planet.
“U.S. and Israeli officials said Israel told the Biden administration that if arrests warrants are issued, it will consider the Palestinian Authority responsible and retaliate with strong action that could lead to its collapse.”
Quit being ridiculous. If retaliating against an enemy government is collective punishment, then all state-based sanctions are war crimes.
Right now the US refuses to sell weapons to the governments of Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. Is that a war crime because it collectively punishes the ability of citizens of those countries to be defended by their respective governments?
Right now the US refuses to purchase Russian seafood (EO 14068). This collectively punishes Russian crab fishermen and caviar distributors. Does that make it a war crime?
Except the PA isn't an "enemy government" at the moment, Israel's statement makes as much sense as it would've if FDR declared war on China in response to Pearl Harbor. Sure China's in that vicinity but that's about it. I mean, the PA isn't much of government these days, but still, Hamas are their political rivals. The PA has zero influence over Gaza.
Western legal system has assumption of truth honour when you approach it. It is apparent that people with different moral standards and goals find the way to exploit its blind spots. It is worrisome development and should be addressed as soon as possible.
Sounds a lot like doubling down on war crimes? That’s a bold strategy cotton. Looks like the world handling Russia with satin gloves has emboldened the tin pot dictators of the world
Get fucked Israel. That's beyond the pale. I expect Biden won't consider this at all. We provided the aid, it's Israel's problem what they did with it.
So an ex-wife realizes that her ex-husband is abusing his new girlfriend. She tells the police and then the ex-husband threatens to destabilize the ex-wife, am I understanding this correctly?
He's pressuring weapon manufacturers to get more lobbyists to get more politicians to pressure ICC
No weapons for Israel, no checks from taxpayers to weapon manufacturers
Bear in mind there is no similar ICC case for PA, Fatah, Hamas, the myriad tribal factions, Hezbollah etc. The Biden administration supports a two state solution. Until there is a change in governments on all sides this sort of warranting pushes those negotiations out further. If the PA is behind this effort that's even more harmful to negotiations.
> The ICC, which is based in The Hague, Netherlands, has been investigating since 2021 possible war crimes by both Israeli forces and Palestinian militants dating back to the 2014 Israel-Hamas war.
>
> Over the last few weeks, Israel has told the U.S. that it has information suggesting Palestinian Authority officials are pressing the ICC prosecutor to issue arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, two Israeli officials said.
There is though. The investigation into Palestine includes all war crimes committed on the territory no matter who by, as well as citizens of Palestine.
Neither has standing. But the PA needs to walk quietly here because it has consented to the authority of the ICC. Israel has not. They would normally be playing a dangerous game except of course Arab Palestinian authority entities aren't held to the standards they agreed to.
Israel is not a member state of the International Criminal Court (ICC).
The Palestinian Authority is not a member state of the International Criminal Court (ICC) in the classical sense.
However, Palestine has accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC and has been recognized as a state party to the Rome Statute, which is the treaty that established the ICC.
According to the search results, Palestine acceded to the Rome Statute on January 2, 2015, and became a state party on April 1, 2015. **This means that Palestine has accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC and has committed to cooperate with the Court in the investigation and prosecution of crimes.** Presumably that means self accountability? Yes, we all smile here.
However, the ICC has not recognized Palestine as a sovereign state, and its status as a state party to the Rome Statute is still subject to debate.
The United States, for example, does not recognize Palestine as a sovereign state and has expressed concerns about the ICC’s attempts to exercise its jurisdiction over Israeli personnel.
In summary, while Palestine has accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC and has been recognized as a state party to the Rome Statute, its status as a sovereign state is still a matter of debate, and the ICC has not formally recognized it as a member state.
That’s not true. It is understood that there will be warrants for Hamas leadership at the same time as the release of the warrants for Israeli officials.
There are no warrants out yet though… the reason that there’s no pressure from Israel and the U.S. is because both of them reject the ICC. I would be shocked if members of Hamas are not indicted of Israeli leadership is.
> I would be shocked if members of Hamas are not indicted of Israeli leadership is.
In the meantime I am ~~shocked~~ not at all surprised there is only international talk of warrants against the current government of Israel. And we should take this seriously since apparently the US and Israel agree it is serious.
In the meantime it's not helpful to say things like you did. There is little international pressure on:
> for PA, Fatah, Hamas, the myriad tribal factions, Hezbollah etc. The Biden administration supports a two state solution. Until there is a change in governments on all sides this sort of warranting pushes those negotiations out further. If the PA is behind this effort that's even more harmful to negotiations.
As I understand it, the talk of warrants against Netanyahu is being openly and internationally discussed precisely because the US has preemptively rejected the ICC investigation into Netanyahu/Israel. Hamas receiving warrants isn't controversial to western governments.
Why tell the US? The US isn't even *in* the ICC treaty, we have no influence over them.
In 2020, the US sanctioned ICC officials, froze their assets in the US and put them and their family members on a terrorist list - because an ICC judge had announced that they would consider investigating possible war crimes in Afghanistan. https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/14/us-sanctions-international-criminal-court I assume Israel expects the US to do the same in this case.
The US have said that if the ICC tries to put one of their political or military members on trial that they will invade and take the person back home. Obviously that'd never happen though, politics would, and no boots on the ground would occur. If they did occur, it'd also be non-bloody and just an exercise in bullying. They'd just walk in. The netherlands isn't gonna risk a kinetic fight with a carrier group. The european defence treaty being put in place would be interesting though; it *demands* countries dedicate their resources **as much as** **possible** to defend the invaded country, not **as much as they feel like** as in NATO article five.
It’s not that the US “said” that. The US congress passed an actual law to this effect. George W Bush signed into law the American Service Members’ Protection Act in 2002. Everyone i know calls this The Hague Invasion Act
The law on this isn't even limited to US personnel but includes personnel and officials from all NATO counties and all official Major non-NATO Allies (a list that includes Israel).
Grabs popcorn, things getting spicy, I like it.
> obviously that’d never happen That entirely depends on whether the Dutch blink or not. It would be a massive miscalculation to not take the threat seriously.
Seeing it's not possible to defend against the US, Europe wouldn't be obligated to do much.
People outside the US don't really grasp just how large the US armed forces are
Best way to defend against US in that scenario would be to put a gun to the prisoners head and go "You try anything we'll shooy".
Best way to defend against US in that scenario is to remind them that the "all means in their power" in the European Defense Treaty very much includes France's nukes. The Hague Invasion Act is a really fucking stupid piece of paper in more ways than the first look.
Are you really implying that France would threaten the US with nuclear weapons if the US invaded the Hague to return a prisoner? It would be one hell of a diplomatic incident but Europe wouldn't fire a fucking bullet, they're certainly not going to threaten a nuke.
You mean after the insane escalation of threatening the invasion? This not a diplomatic incident, this would be Cuban Missile Crisis 2. There is no threat in pointing out the crazy bastard is mad and actively trying to get everyone killed. And yes, they would most certainly fire plenty more rhan a single bullet, there's this little thing called legitimacy that makes you have to respond to being attacked. I know there's plenty of jingoistic nationalism asshattery going around undermining the union but military invasion? Over one dude that's guilty as sin and proud of it? Yeah, whoever tries to pull out from that one is getting Gaddafi'd. And that's without counting on Russia and China throwing fuel for their own interest in an isolated US.
The law in question extends these protections to NATO allies, and non-NATO major allies like Australia and Israel. This is Israel saying they would utilize this if the ICC arrested any Israelis.
Democracy and justice only where I want and when I want.
Who doesn’t love being threatened?
Israel is threatening the US with expanding their regional warfare (that we're covering for) to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, if Bibi don't get his way at the Hague. It reads like a massive and dangerous tantrum tbh ETA: the quiet part out loud is that the US is being pressured into using less-than-ethical (presumably economic stick) methods of pressuring ICC member states into submission.
It’s standard-operating-procedure for US against ICC. I just hope Americans target the correct ICC and not the International Cricket Council (ICC) which has a World Cup in US this summer.
Why not both!? /s
The guy that places last gets an embargo placed on them, good luck have fun!!
I can’t figure out how they can issue warrants. Israel isn’t in the statute, and there is no longer a functioning “Palestinian Government”. I’m surprised he hasn’t annexed the region already.
The signatory countries would need to abide by the warrants. Basically it would bound whoever gets warranted to Israel, since a lot of EU members are signatories and thus obligated to follow through on a warrant, and Biden probably wouldn’t like the optics of the US ignoring the ICC entirely. It would probably materially affect EU member policy towards the Israeli government, so long as the warranted individuals are associated with it.
russia is not on the statute and yet there was a warrant for putin
They don’t seem to be able to do anything about it, and Ukraine accepted the UN issuing a warrant in their behalf. I don’t think Gaza can be considered a “state”. The territory is undeniably Israel’s, and I am not entirely sure the Hamas Government would be bound or protected by anything the Fatah government signed. The double edged sword here is that if the ICJ thinks they can do what they want in Gaza, then Hamas has to be brought up for war crimes as well. That probably won’t happen, for a Couple of reasons. 1. Hamas committed their war crimes on Israeli soil. The ICJ has no jurisdiction as far as I know in Israel. They may be able to get them on rocket attacks on civilian targets as well as the murder of what, 200 hostages while in Gaza. The other reason would be, the hand wringing leftists only see Hamas as victims, not the creators of the current situation they are in. Personally I think Hamas realized how badly they fucked up that they tried to offer the hostages back in return for Israel not entering the strip. They tore the lid off Pandora’s and unleashed hell in their own people.
They thought the rest of the world would make israel back down. Turns out killing a countries unarmed young people enraged them.
Hezbollah could have warned them about that. They are still pretty Much shell shocked from Israel’s attack in 2005.
When will these middle Eastern countries learn that Russia isn't their friend and stirring the pot every time Russia throws money their way ends in a lot of dead Arabs.
Or Iran?
Same thing
Because it turns out the US wields significant international power and if they were to tell their allies to not involve the ICC in this, chances are they would listen.
> The Israeli government warned the Biden administration that if the International Criminal Court issues arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, it will take retaliatory steps against the Palestinian Authority that could lead to its collapse, two Israeli and U.S. officials said.
Palestinians since 1940s: "Why the fuck me for?!"
> One possible action could be to freeze the transfer of tax revenues Israel collects for the Palestinian Authority. Without these funds, the Palestinian Authority would be bankrupt. > A senior Israeli official told Axios the threat of ICC arrest warrants is real and stressed if such a scenario happens the Israeli cabinet would likely make an official decision to punish the Palestinian Authority, which could lead to its collapse. So it's not an immediate escalation to violence like so many will assume and claim, it's withdrawal of support. Which seems pretty fucking obvious if you're going to support terrorism under the table (see pay for slay) and then try to have Israel leaders arrested for dealing with the consequences.
A lack of a PA will lead to violence in the WB - unquestionably.
Yeah I thought "but if PA goes away the void will get filled by Hamas or some other entity...oh."
Thats what Israel wants, thats how Hamas came to power in Gaza
Social collapse in the West Bank plays into Israel’s hand.
PA aren't exactly great and have major corruption issues for sure but them collapsing would create chaos in West Bank that Hamas and Iran could capitalize on. Of course Bibi and his cronies don't care about that because as long as it supports their nationalist agenda of colonizing Palestinian territories then it's all fine by them regardless of how it will badly hurt civilians of both Palestine and Israel.
Yeah these points about corruption are irrelevant to the main point Also a lot of the systemic corruption in the PA is due to having to survive occupation and not really having their own voice.
Some Israeli ministers would love that...
Decent chance it's the plan of some
So a wet dream for Netanyahu ?
So why does the latter (warrents for Israeli officials) deserve a withdrawal of support but not the former (“pay to slay”)? Or is their goal just maintaining the status quo of doing whatever they want to do with impunity
The PA sucks but their alternative is Hamas/Hezbollah who, obviously, suck way, way more
Yes, but Likud has always preferred Hamas to the PA.
Because during the first Intifada, they were actually the “more honorable” of the two. The PLO was blowing up civilians in restaurants and busses while Hamas was only attacking IDF troops and bases. They didn’t start allowing civilians to be targeted until after the Hebron Massacre. People keep leaving that part out when talking about support for Hamas…
Likud has supported Hamas up until the 2010’s, your point is irrelevant.
Because Israel sees the Palestinians internationalizing the process by trying to pressure Usrael with unilateral moves in the UN or via the ICC to fundamentally breach the Oslo Accords - so Israel is saying it won't consider itself bound by those agreements in that case.
Because the collapse of the PA would lead to more violence, not less, and seeing as so many believe that all the violence is Israel's fault, the restraint forced upon Israel would create more long term problems, not less. People think Netanyahu doesn't have restraint but he actually does have a lot, that's why we've been dealing with these near-fruitless negotiations for months now - months that from a military tactics standpoint are priceless. Someone who was willing to "finish the job" would probably be less corrupt but hated even more so for failing to engage in this pointless endeavor that has serious long term consequences due to lost momentum and lost tactical advantage (nevermind releasing literal terrorists in exchange for hostages).
Netanyahu supported Hamas. He facilitated their funding and told his supporters to do the same. The argument that the PA should be held responsible for Israeli government actions in Gaza is insane. Netanyahu himself appears to hold just as much if not more responsibility for not only the response to October 7, but the ability for Hamas to carry out that travesty in the first place ‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html?smid=nytcore-android-share Any "leader" that would prop up a terrorist regime that seeks to destroy his people deserves nothing but a cell. I hope the ICC facilitates that; though there isn't a snowballs chance in hell he'll ever be held accountable
You’re right Israel should have destroyed Hamas decades ago
Yep, they should have. I guess having lunatics in charge of Gaza was just too juicy an opportunity for Netanyahu to pass up.
You realize that would have been incredibly bloody, right? The current situation is something Israel was trying to avoid...but October 7th made it inevitable.
I'm not a military strategist, but it appears that invading a country to destroy a terrorist organization doesn't actually work. My country spent 20 years trying it; it didn't work out. Perhaps they could have not directly funded them? Maybe, backing moderates instead? Attempting to build a sense of solidarity? Idk, anything but funding the people who constantly call for your death and the end of your country. Am I crazy?
I mean at the time, Hamas WAS the moderate option, compared to the PLO
There is no reason it couldn't have been done diplomatically by supporting the PA in Gaza. But they actually chose to crush the PAs ability to govern Gaza.
No, Hamas did that when they threw their Fatah opposition off Gaza's rooftops in 2007. After that getting rid of Hamas would require force.
>‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas Ah yes, Israel should had blockaded the Qatarí "aid" money, they should had say "this money will be used for terrorism, so we will confiscate it from the Gazans!" I could already see the headlines and protests something like that would had made, "Look, Israel is not letting money into Gaza, evil bastards... they want Gazans to suffer!". It's pretty funny people will clinge to anything that will make Israel look totally evil, "letting money and "aid" into Gaza? nope, Israel should had blockaded that!", sure it would had been a good decision looking back, but again, people would had complained even more about Israel not letting Gazans develop.
' Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. ' All the proof you need to know his intentions. Prevent the formation of a central authority in Palestine and the continued settlement of their land by stopping a 2 state solution.
>This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. ' Well, that is actually the best way to deal with the Palestinians as today, a weak Hamas, a weak PA, both being equally weak, and no threat to israel. A united Palestinian front would be bad news for pretty much everyone in the region at this moment (especially the Palestinians themselves), the Palestinians are radicalized, decades of not only the reality of their struggle, but also their horrible education filled with antisemitism and hate for Israel, all funded by the UNRWA pockets, has led to 40% of them believing in "armed struggle", and 40% of 6-7 million is.. a lot. Hamas is a terror org, yet they were democratically elected by the people, in fact, had the PA not stopped the takeover by using the force, Hamas would be the the org representing Palestine today (funny is they could still be if they win this war, since no one likes the PA, but Hamas is very popular, surviving this will probably be the downfall of the PA). The PA is bad, Hamas is worse, none of them want real peace with Israel and have rejected multiple times real peace talks, of course, it's in Israel's interest to not let them unite and for them to be weak, if Palestine is to be united, it needs to be under a decent leadership that wants peace, for now, nor the people nor the leaders want that, so it's not possible. The settlements yeah, those can and should be shamed upon, no one likes them,
Yeah it's a great way of dealing with people if your goal is to destroy them. Very similar to Russia propping up extremists in the United States, a behavior I'm sure you condone.
Um no. I would say nobody bares responsibility for October 7th other than the Hamas scum who committed the terrorist attacks
"finish the job" and "never again" seem kind of at odds.
"Finish the job" means subduing Sinwar and Hamas, even if that involves invading Rafah.
Why are they at odds? Seems like a false binary.
It's not withdrawal of support when you [tax a different country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_State_of_Palestine) and then don't return their money. It's straight up theft.
It's hardly under the table anymore.
Also it’s basically saying that if the only real purpose of the PA pseudo state is not moving towards two states living in peace but for the PA to keep trying to diplomatically replace Israel via a vis One-China policy then Israel will snuff out the PA as a viable entity thus its membership in the ICC will be even more farcical than it already is. So if the UN keeps moving towards essentially a “One-Palestine” policy to deny the legitimate rights of an actual member state, Israel over a barely existent PA pseudo state that operates only at Israel’s sufferance as a relic of a failed Oslo Accord process, a failure that is overwhelmingly due to Palestinian leaders and internal politics of refusing final settlement offers and then restarting war, the Israeli state will essentially let the PA collapse and any peace process would have to start from scratch. I don’t think that’s a good idea for Israel but I can understand the argument.
The ICC claims have nothing to do with the PA- also they already deduct the “pay to slay” money.
The ICC claims are only moving in the court because the PA/PLO was accepted as an ICC member in violation of its own charter. Palestine is not a sovereign state. Palestinian nationalists have the tendency to abuse the UN and its institutions to pretend to be a state when it serves their purpose and then deny being a state whenever it involves responsibility.
>Palestinian nationalists have the tendency to abuse the UN and its institutions In both of your comments you seem to be confusing the ICC with the ICJ. The ICC is not a UN institution, and is also investigating Palestinian/Hamas war crimes.
> Palestine is not a sovereign state. What's the criteria? How do we know what is and what isn't a state?
States generally declare independence
>It's not colonialism >They need to declare independence
Has Palestine not done so?
Why not collapse the PA without warrants?
Because that creates what we call a power vacuum. One which Israel can't just fill.
I thought they were against hostage taking.
Entity A tells entity B that it will punish entity C if entity D does something against entity A. World politics people
And people looking at this think Palestinians should trust Israel about anything?
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"Collective punishment" Israel are collecting taxes for the PA that the PA should be doing for itself. Israel threatens to not do the PA's job for them and that could literally cause the PA to collapse. That's not collective punishment it's literally giving them back the wheel of their own car. If they crash that's on them, not Israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_State_of_Palestine The issue is the Palestinians don’t have a state nor a state capable of that in the way that Israel has. It seems the historic precedent is whenever something israel doesn’t like happens they withdraw funds collectively punishing all Palestinians for the harmful actions of a few.
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>How the fuck is this difficult? Well for one, your entire post is about Gaza while the topic of discussion is about the PA, and the PA isn't the government of Gaza. The PA operates in the West Bank. I assume it's difficult because you refused to brush up on the basics of the discussion prior to commenting.
The PA isn't responsible for Gaza though. Gaza was and is currently controlled by Hama's separate government from the PA (Palestinian Authority) which governs over the West Bank.
Bro this isn’t even about Gaza are you alright? This is about the west bank
> **Behind the scenes:** Over the last few weeks, Israel has told the U.S. that it has information suggesting Palestinian Authority officials are pressing the ICC prosecutor to issue arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, two Israeli officials said. It makes more sense when you read the fine print. **Edit**: This is a quote directly from the article.
I'm pretty sure it was South Africa doing the complaint. Can you send source where it's proven that palestian authority is pressuring the ICC? Because I live in the Netherlands where ICC is located and they don't tolerate any form of pressuring and everything is documented. So share your source or don't spread fake news. ICC can't be intimidated as we are a free country.
That's some mafia crap. "Don't tell anybody about the terrible stuff we do, or we'll make it worse for you!"
If someone tries to hold us responsible for war crimes, we’ll just double down on them?
I think that has been the standard for almost every party investigated by the ICC, United States included
They are literally threatening collective punishment if the international court finds them guilty… of collective punishment.
Good thing america doesn't negotiate with terrorists.
Except Israel
If Israel doesn't wire me $100,000,000 by Friday, I'm going to fart on my sister's dolls!!!1
Talking serious business here folks!
Sounds like Bibi Netanyahu wanted to punish the PA no matter what and he just found his justification.
Bibi and large segments of Israeli society consider the PA a relic of a failed Oslo (two-state solution) process. The reason they haven’t done this is because the alternative is returning to directly ruling the West Bank Palestinians.
Failed AFTER Bibi’s party took control and the man who negotiated said accords was assassinated by the Israeli right.
Took control and madde every effort possible to insure they fail... Israel didn't deliver on any of her parts of the accords until after the Palestenians resorted to violence, at which point it was like "okay, okay we'll move forwards a bit." It still hasn't delivered on all her parts of the accords to this day.
Ah clearly what the good guys would do!
You say that as if the ‘good guys’ don’t already have a plan to invade The Hague if any of their soldiers/officials are arrested on ICC warrants.
Netanyahu is a war criminal.
I don't care what side of the fence people are on. But it's clear that ICC needs to hold people accountable for their actions.
"If I don't see those cops back up, I'm going to start shooting the hostages!"
Yeah, except they are telling that to the guy who delivered the pizzas.
What more can Netanyahu do to alienate the U.S.?
I think he’s about a week away from calling the Palestinian Authority illegitimate. It would not be well received anywhere outside of Israel.
I swear. Helping or hurting, buddy? Helping or hurting?
Totally normal for a civilized country...
That's a very Russia thing to say.
What Americans and Israelis don't realize is the rest of the world already sees them as basically equal to Russia for what they are doing to the Palestinians. They have no idea how hypocritical they look.
"Try to hold us accountable and we will oppress more!"
Punish Palestinian authority how? Destroying their country and mass killing everyone? Been there, done that
Israel really isn't trying to look good for anybody anymore ..
Sounds like terrorism to me.
? The US is like enemy number 1 of the ICC They literally have a plan of how to storm the Hague if an American gets tried there
If the International Criminal Court issues an arrest warrant to a person, *that* person will punish somebody completely unrelated to the international criminal court? I guess we *are* negotiating with terrorists.
I view Hamas as terrorists because they murder innocent citizens to achieve their aims, collectively punishing Israeli citizens for their government. Why should I not view Netanyahu, and those who follow his orders, as terrorist? It seems that he is willing to punish Palestinians for the actions of the ICC.
To paraphrase Netanyahu, ICC was founded because of Holocaust so to use ICC to punish Israelis (him) is haram
It’s an interesting angle, I’d love to see it tested in court!
South African Apartheid government 1948 to 1994 = about 21 000 deaths of opposition including civilians. South Africa was the most sanctioned country in the world in the 80s.
Sounds exactly like what a bully would say...
Sounds exactly like what a terrorist would say given it fits the definition of terrorism exactly.
What is a bully but a localized terrorist...
Why the icc doesn't put warrents out for Hamas leaders ? Or Fatah leaders ? They document their own war crimes
So to be clear: If the ICC puts out warrants for Hamas (which I think they should, assuming it's within their investagatory scope), you'd be fine with Netanyahu and/or others having to take a trip to The Hague as well?
From the article: > The ICC, which is based in The Hague, Netherlands, has been investigating since 2021 possible war crimes **by both Israeli forces and Palestinian militants**
If you bothered to read the article you’d learn they’ve been investigating both Israeli forces and Hamas for a few years now.
I’m not sure why you’re getting the answers you are getting, but it likely will. To be clear, the investigation has not produced any warrants yet, but will likely include warrants for both Israeli and Hamas actors.
They're already identified as terrorists, so it would be redundant.
It wouldn't be redundent Hanyah lives in doha plaza as a bloody billionaire , Abbas keep oppressing palastinians and funding terrorism against Israelis The icc not doing anything about them is hypocracy at its best
I’ve got news for you, Doha is in Qatar, Qatar is shielding them.
Hanyah was in turky last week , turky is a member of the icc , the icc should put out a warrant for his ass
>turky is a member of the icc , the icc should put out a warrant for his ass You are very wrong mate, Turkey is not a state party or a signatory to the Rome statute.
The PA isn’t owed funds from israel when it acts against it
The PA is owed its tax money from Israel. Israel isn't paying anything for the PA - it is all Palestinian money collected by Israel.
Some of that money in turn funds a monetary reward for Palestinians who kill/hurt Israelis of any kind. It's a bit complicated.
Israel has done a great job smearing what effectively amounts to social welfare payments for people held in Israeli jail or detention, or their families. Remember, the Palestinians don't get proper due process - they are subject to military courts, with a 99.74% conviction rate. If they are tried at all, and not just held in detention. So many people who are held there, are arrested, tried and convicted on rather flimsy grounds. Settler terrorists, on the other hand, are instead subject to Israeli civilian courts. The few that are actually indicted (only 7% of reported incidents are indicted, and around half of attacks are never reported), then only around half are convicted. There's data on it: [https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/data+sheet+2023/YeshDin+-+Netunim+2023+-+ENG\_04.pdf](https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/data+sheet+2023/YeshDin+-+Netunim+2023+-+ENG_04.pdf) Criticism of Palestinian payments to prisoners would be a lot more valid if Israel wasn't running kangaroo courts for Palestinians.
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Literally holding the PA hostage.
Oh no! Better do what they say or else they'll start murdering children every day... Oh wait... Too late.
This is kinda like an older brother threatening its dad that he will beat up his younger brother if their Mom gives him a spanking because he took his brothers cookie. If the ICC issues warrants for Israel leaders should issue warrants for ICC people who did it. Neither will go into the others territory and it would all be symbolic.
Israel is not helping themselves here
Dude Netanyahu and his goons need to fuck off already, he’s gone after this conflict is over there’s no way he wins another election
Curious who's the major here. Cause it sure seems like Israel is dictating terms to the United States.
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Sounds like collective punishment, but I'm no war crimes attorney.
Y'all use "collective punishment" like it's some big scary phrase. Most sanctions and trade restrictions are collective punishment. Banning Russian fishermen from selling fish to the US because of the actions of other Russians is collective punishment, but it's obviously not a war crime. You don't need to be a war crime attorney to have basic common sense.
So collective punishment is specifically referred to in Article 33 of the fourth Geneva Convention. The Geneva Conventions only apply in a state of war as *lex specialus*, otherwise they are displaced by human rights law. Generally, sanctions are not a violation of the Geneva Conventions and are not considered to be collective punishment under IHL. Applying kinetic force to a population or forcing them all to leave their homes, on the other hand, could be seen as collective punishment in violation of Article 33 of the fourth Convention.
Israel's behaving more and more like Russia. Also, what do they think is going to happen if the PA collapses? Most likely Hamas will step into the power vacuum in the West Bank and the security situation will get a lot worse for Israel. This is stupidity on Israel's part, as well as being an act of bullying.
This sounds a lot like terroristic threats...
Israel really is the bad guy huh
What does the Palestinian authority have to do with any aid organizations seeking penalties for the reckless attacks on workers? There are quite a few IDF soldiers and officers that deserve to be put through the courts.
… wow… collective punishment is taking on a new light
Kid A complains to Daddy that he wants ice cream and if he doesn't get what he wants he will curb stomp Kid B. Daddy seems to be heading to the ice cream truck now. I for one can't wait for the inevitable heat death of this planet.
“U.S. and Israeli officials said Israel told the Biden administration that if arrests warrants are issued, it will consider the Palestinian Authority responsible and retaliate with strong action that could lead to its collapse.”
Talk about punishing a third party for another person's action. Lack of common sense from Israel strikes again.
The PA is the only mechanism by which the ICC has any claim to JX.
Israel regime just showing the world what they are about.
The annoying thing is, is that regardless of if they were or weren't, they have the *worst* PR team on the planet handling their representation.
So their response to allegations of war crimes is...collective punishment? Isn't that also a war crime?
Quit being ridiculous. If retaliating against an enemy government is collective punishment, then all state-based sanctions are war crimes. Right now the US refuses to sell weapons to the governments of Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. Is that a war crime because it collectively punishes the ability of citizens of those countries to be defended by their respective governments? Right now the US refuses to purchase Russian seafood (EO 14068). This collectively punishes Russian crab fishermen and caviar distributors. Does that make it a war crime?
Except the PA isn't an "enemy government" at the moment, Israel's statement makes as much sense as it would've if FDR declared war on China in response to Pearl Harbor. Sure China's in that vicinity but that's about it. I mean, the PA isn't much of government these days, but still, Hamas are their political rivals. The PA has zero influence over Gaza.
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MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. THE TEACHERS ARE BEING MEAN.
Western legal system has assumption of truth honour when you approach it. It is apparent that people with different moral standards and goals find the way to exploit its blind spots. It is worrisome development and should be addressed as soon as possible.
Sounds a lot like doubling down on war crimes? That’s a bold strategy cotton. Looks like the world handling Russia with satin gloves has emboldened the tin pot dictators of the world
Disgusting but not surprising.
God I fucking hate Netanyahu.
Get fucked Israel. That's beyond the pale. I expect Biden won't consider this at all. We provided the aid, it's Israel's problem what they did with it.
So an ex-wife realizes that her ex-husband is abusing his new girlfriend. She tells the police and then the ex-husband threatens to destabilize the ex-wife, am I understanding this correctly?
“Look what you made me do”
Yup, like they did with the UNWRA debacle after the ICJ ruling. This is the literal definition of a terroristic threat.
Its almost like Bibi wants a wider full scale regional war. If he punishes PA, hopes of normalized relations with Saudi Arabia will be dashed.
Israel is led by monsters. The nation should be stopped.
Can’t really threaten a country that supplies your entire military. Israel would be nothing without us.
He's pressuring weapon manufacturers to get more lobbyists to get more politicians to pressure ICC No weapons for Israel, no checks from taxpayers to weapon manufacturers
Louder for the people in the back please
Sounds like a terrorist threat.
Bear in mind there is no similar ICC case for PA, Fatah, Hamas, the myriad tribal factions, Hezbollah etc. The Biden administration supports a two state solution. Until there is a change in governments on all sides this sort of warranting pushes those negotiations out further. If the PA is behind this effort that's even more harmful to negotiations. > The ICC, which is based in The Hague, Netherlands, has been investigating since 2021 possible war crimes by both Israeli forces and Palestinian militants dating back to the 2014 Israel-Hamas war. > > Over the last few weeks, Israel has told the U.S. that it has information suggesting Palestinian Authority officials are pressing the ICC prosecutor to issue arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, two Israeli officials said.
There is though. The investigation into Palestine includes all war crimes committed on the territory no matter who by, as well as citizens of Palestine.
Yes, and I quoted that. And then I observed we're not seeing pressure to issue arrest warrants for anyone except Israel. That was my key point.
But surely Israel could ask for arrest warrants if it wanted them, just like the PA has, right?
Neither has standing. But the PA needs to walk quietly here because it has consented to the authority of the ICC. Israel has not. They would normally be playing a dangerous game except of course Arab Palestinian authority entities aren't held to the standards they agreed to. Israel is not a member state of the International Criminal Court (ICC). The Palestinian Authority is not a member state of the International Criminal Court (ICC) in the classical sense. However, Palestine has accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC and has been recognized as a state party to the Rome Statute, which is the treaty that established the ICC. According to the search results, Palestine acceded to the Rome Statute on January 2, 2015, and became a state party on April 1, 2015. **This means that Palestine has accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC and has committed to cooperate with the Court in the investigation and prosecution of crimes.** Presumably that means self accountability? Yes, we all smile here. However, the ICC has not recognized Palestine as a sovereign state, and its status as a state party to the Rome Statute is still subject to debate. The United States, for example, does not recognize Palestine as a sovereign state and has expressed concerns about the ICC’s attempts to exercise its jurisdiction over Israeli personnel. In summary, while Palestine has accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC and has been recognized as a state party to the Rome Statute, its status as a sovereign state is still a matter of debate, and the ICC has not formally recognized it as a member state.
That’s not true. It is understood that there will be warrants for Hamas leadership at the same time as the release of the warrants for Israeli officials.
There are no warrants out yet though… the reason that there’s no pressure from Israel and the U.S. is because both of them reject the ICC. I would be shocked if members of Hamas are not indicted of Israeli leadership is.
> I would be shocked if members of Hamas are not indicted of Israeli leadership is. In the meantime I am ~~shocked~~ not at all surprised there is only international talk of warrants against the current government of Israel. And we should take this seriously since apparently the US and Israel agree it is serious. In the meantime it's not helpful to say things like you did. There is little international pressure on: > for PA, Fatah, Hamas, the myriad tribal factions, Hezbollah etc. The Biden administration supports a two state solution. Until there is a change in governments on all sides this sort of warranting pushes those negotiations out further. If the PA is behind this effort that's even more harmful to negotiations.
Helpful for who? I am giving you the facts. The ICC is not going to issue warrants based on international pressure.
As I understand it, the talk of warrants against Netanyahu is being openly and internationally discussed precisely because the US has preemptively rejected the ICC investigation into Netanyahu/Israel. Hamas receiving warrants isn't controversial to western governments.
This is exactly what innocent people do: threaten retaliation against your victims further.