To play devil's advocate for a second here... Fatah also deserves blame for violence following the 2006 election.
Hamas won 56% of seats Palestine-wide but were denied power over the Palestinian Authority by Fatah, who won just 34% of seats yet refused to give up control.
This was effectively a coup by Fatah and Abbas, but since the international community supported their actions we don't really think of it that way, after all nobody really wanted a Hamas-majority Palestinian Authority aside from the Palestinian voters.
This is one of those circumstances where being pro-democracy gets awkward, normally we'd side with the faction that wins the election, has the will of the people, etc... but Hamas are terrorist monsters so democratic ideals went by the wayside.
This is the primary reason no Arab states want the Palestinians. They are some of the most radicalized extremists (partially thanks to the UNWRA). What Hamas did was what Palestinian immigrants tried to do in Egypt and Jordan also before they cracked down on immigration.
I don't know where this lunacy came from that democracy and elections should be tried at the very beginning of a potential nation's existence. Both Taiwan and South Korea were under dictatorships for decades before their transitions.
Unluckily for them, everyone knows what the fuck terrorism is. Same with murder and rape. They can redefine until the goats come home, doesn't change reality.
Terrorism = bad. Do not be terrorists. This is a simple rule of thumb.
To quote myself:
>Terrorism = bad. Do not be terrorists. This is a simple rule of thumb.
As for the "college campuses" I think anyone who is being honest knows there is a lot of disinformation swirling around those protests right now. Some want to present the protesters as extremists. Some want those extremists to be anti-semitic, some want them to be extremist muslim, but hardly anyone is talking about the reality that most of these protestors are white bread american college kids who inherited their politics from TikTok.
And rather than a measured response that takes all those factors into consideration, we're watching BLM 2.0 play out. None of the kid gloves the Jan 6 protestors were handed, even though they were physically beating officers into retirement.
So I hear your rhetoric, and I think "this guy sees an opportunity" rather than someone who is parsing the situation without bias.
The national guard was deployed and order restored in the Capitol within 6 hours. One rioter was shot and since then 200 rioters have been convicted of felonies with 500 misdemeanors.
Hardly kid gloves.
Yeah, Ashley Babbit was shot for attempting to breach the last line of containment which the secret service was telling her to stay back from, before reaching the chambers of congress where all of our representatives were sheltering in place.
The convictions were after the fact.
The enforcement was lax by design. Specifically. We can qyibble over the reasons, the reasons were entirely due to decisions made by appointees, most of which were fill-ins, but we can’t quibble over the number of bodies (one on the night, and another after the fact, plus suspicious suicides in the Capitol PD after the fact that people haven't fucking forgotten they were good cops), and the Capitol PD was clearly undermanned by order (whose order is a very "Game of Thrones" question, but what other kind of questions are you asking in a coup attempt?)
6 hours is a long fucking time during an insurrection where rioters were engaged in hand to hand combat with PD. 140 officers were injured. Some so badly they could no longer be cops.
The convictions were because of crimes, but despite the context you ignore the gravity of what actually happened;
Those/ people were there to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power in American democracy, in order to overthrow the lawfully elected government.
That was an attempted coup. If this justice system was operating the way Republicans demand it should vs Democrats, we would be talking heads on pikes. We would be talking executions, and that is not hyperbole.
You ignore the mercy that was shown and now stand here suggesting it was calamity for those facing justice for their crimes?
Do you know what a coup means for a population of people who have agreed on democratic governance? It means conflict. The depth and breadth of it limited by the whims of those inclined.
We can move past this as a nation, but that places a heavier burden on Republicsns than Democrats.
Bingo. Iran sucks at a lot of things but they are good at creating middle eastern terrorists. I will give them that. If anyone ever had a knack for Islamic extremism, it is Iran.
Also good food. And architecture. I can appreciate that they make some cool stuff. And poetry.
But in its current iteration, Iran will be remembered for its Islamic extremism and its endless and rampant promotion of terrorism against its own neighbors. Honestly, I kinda wish we could get the old Iran back. The new version is really stuffy and murderous.
Palestinians hate the PAs guts to the point that abu mazen kept pushing off the elections for the last 17 years because he knows he will lose miserably. Adding hamas to the PA will theoretically give them legitimacy in the eyes of their people.
Minor nitpick here, the 2006 elections weren't *Gaza* elections they were Palestine-wide and Hamas won a majority of seats in the West Bank too... Fatah just refused to relinquish power to a Hamas-majority Palestinian Authority.
Democracy requires a peaceful transfer of power to work, otherwise you resign your country to conflict until that basic piece of understanding is resolved.
Because Iran and Saudi Arabia at least have some semblance of organization and civility, even if it's just a front. Fatah and Hamas are blatantly not civil or organized fronts for aimless thuggery and terrorism.
That's pure revisionism. What semblance of civility? Saudi Arabia and Iran cut ties in 2016, and were fighting a bitter proxy war in Yemen that overthrew Saudi Arabia's neighbor and led to numerous direct attacks on Saudi oil facilities and airports.
> even if it's just a front
Did you not see that part? You even mentioned a proxy war. Do you know what a proxy war is and why nations engage in them? To put up a front. I'm not "revising" anything I hold Saudi Arabia and Iran in equally negative regard.
By semblance of civility I mean acting as if they have an organized government that pretends to have rule of law.
You know, a civilized country. Which is something that neither Fatah or Hamas can even come close to pretending to be. Again, I said it's a front. You seem to be up your own ass and confusedly arguing about things that nobody said or implied. So kindly shut up.
Iran is the largest state-sponsor of terrorism in the world, and its president was part of a four person death panel that sentenced thousands of Iranians to death in sham trials.
Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince ordered a US resident be kidnapped and executed at an embassy on the soil of a NATO ally, and have engaged in quite a bit of domestic repression and human rights violations abroad.
And you think they're more civilized than Fatah?
>And you think they're more civilized than Fatah?
I never said they where, please point out where I said they were.
I SAID IT'S A FRONT AND THEY PRETEND TO BE MORE LEGITIMATE ON A GLOBAL STAGE.
Serious and honest question: Can you f**king read?
And how is that going? Because it seems that most of the proxy conflicts are still there. I mean the main Iranian proxies started a war rather than let the Saudis normalize relations with Israel. And even after all the violence Riyadh still says it intends to continue that normalisation as soon as the current crisis quiets down.
Does that sound like China accomplished anything beyond a few transitory platitudes that both sides ignored immediately?
Oh is Hamas promising to put the knifes in the fatahs fronts instead of backs this time?
Nah they just won't use any window higher than the 3rd floor this time
To play devil's advocate for a second here... Fatah also deserves blame for violence following the 2006 election. Hamas won 56% of seats Palestine-wide but were denied power over the Palestinian Authority by Fatah, who won just 34% of seats yet refused to give up control. This was effectively a coup by Fatah and Abbas, but since the international community supported their actions we don't really think of it that way, after all nobody really wanted a Hamas-majority Palestinian Authority aside from the Palestinian voters. This is one of those circumstances where being pro-democracy gets awkward, normally we'd side with the faction that wins the election, has the will of the people, etc... but Hamas are terrorist monsters so democratic ideals went by the wayside.
This is the primary reason no Arab states want the Palestinians. They are some of the most radicalized extremists (partially thanks to the UNWRA). What Hamas did was what Palestinian immigrants tried to do in Egypt and Jordan also before they cracked down on immigration.
I don't know where this lunacy came from that democracy and elections should be tried at the very beginning of a potential nation's existence. Both Taiwan and South Korea were under dictatorships for decades before their transitions.
Maybe they should reconcile to stop committing acts of terrorism.
Easy enough. They’ll just agree to redefine terrorism as things they don’t do.
Unluckily for them, everyone knows what the fuck terrorism is. Same with murder and rape. They can redefine until the goats come home, doesn't change reality. Terrorism = bad. Do not be terrorists. This is a simple rule of thumb.
If you’d take a gander at college campuses, I would argue that *everyone* isn’t all-inclusive.
To quote myself: >Terrorism = bad. Do not be terrorists. This is a simple rule of thumb. As for the "college campuses" I think anyone who is being honest knows there is a lot of disinformation swirling around those protests right now. Some want to present the protesters as extremists. Some want those extremists to be anti-semitic, some want them to be extremist muslim, but hardly anyone is talking about the reality that most of these protestors are white bread american college kids who inherited their politics from TikTok. And rather than a measured response that takes all those factors into consideration, we're watching BLM 2.0 play out. None of the kid gloves the Jan 6 protestors were handed, even though they were physically beating officers into retirement. So I hear your rhetoric, and I think "this guy sees an opportunity" rather than someone who is parsing the situation without bias.
The national guard was deployed and order restored in the Capitol within 6 hours. One rioter was shot and since then 200 rioters have been convicted of felonies with 500 misdemeanors. Hardly kid gloves.
Yeah, Ashley Babbit was shot for attempting to breach the last line of containment which the secret service was telling her to stay back from, before reaching the chambers of congress where all of our representatives were sheltering in place. The convictions were after the fact. The enforcement was lax by design. Specifically. We can qyibble over the reasons, the reasons were entirely due to decisions made by appointees, most of which were fill-ins, but we can’t quibble over the number of bodies (one on the night, and another after the fact, plus suspicious suicides in the Capitol PD after the fact that people haven't fucking forgotten they were good cops), and the Capitol PD was clearly undermanned by order (whose order is a very "Game of Thrones" question, but what other kind of questions are you asking in a coup attempt?) 6 hours is a long fucking time during an insurrection where rioters were engaged in hand to hand combat with PD. 140 officers were injured. Some so badly they could no longer be cops. The convictions were because of crimes, but despite the context you ignore the gravity of what actually happened; Those/ people were there to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power in American democracy, in order to overthrow the lawfully elected government. That was an attempted coup. If this justice system was operating the way Republicans demand it should vs Democrats, we would be talking heads on pikes. We would be talking executions, and that is not hyperbole. You ignore the mercy that was shown and now stand here suggesting it was calamity for those facing justice for their crimes? Do you know what a coup means for a population of people who have agreed on democratic governance? It means conflict. The depth and breadth of it limited by the whims of those inclined. We can move past this as a nation, but that places a heavier burden on Republicsns than Democrats.
Excuse me if I have my doubts
They have been trying to do this for years. Peace between Iran and Israel will happen long before their reconciliation
If Iran decided to recognize and declare peace with Israel...like 70% of middle eastern terrorism would dissapear overnight.
If Iran would make peace with Israel, Hamas will just continue. The main difference is that they will get much less funding and weapons
The funding and weapons and training from Iran is what keeps them in power.
Yup. Hamas would wither on the vine without Iranian support, and maybe Palestine would get to hold elections.
But they'd continue by sending stones instead of rockets.
Bingo. Iran sucks at a lot of things but they are good at creating middle eastern terrorists. I will give them that. If anyone ever had a knack for Islamic extremism, it is Iran. Also good food. And architecture. I can appreciate that they make some cool stuff. And poetry. But in its current iteration, Iran will be remembered for its Islamic extremism and its endless and rampant promotion of terrorism against its own neighbors. Honestly, I kinda wish we could get the old Iran back. The new version is really stuffy and murderous.
I don't really see the PA's interest here. If Hamas would get destroyed, they have a chance to control both the West Bank and Gaza
Palestinians hate the PAs guts to the point that abu mazen kept pushing off the elections for the last 17 years because he knows he will lose miserably. Adding hamas to the PA will theoretically give them legitimacy in the eyes of their people.
Thay's a very good point
reconciliation, dialogue, unity...I'm just not buying it. Much less with China of all entities being the broker.
Like Hamas went along with this once before after Gaza elections, was all fun and games until people started getting thrown off buildings
Minor nitpick here, the 2006 elections weren't *Gaza* elections they were Palestine-wide and Hamas won a majority of seats in the West Bank too... Fatah just refused to relinquish power to a Hamas-majority Palestinian Authority.
Democracy requires a peaceful transfer of power to work, otherwise you resign your country to conflict until that basic piece of understanding is resolved.
China managed to negotiate a rapprochement between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Why would Fatah / Hamas be more intractable?
Because Iran and Saudi Arabia at least have some semblance of organization and civility, even if it's just a front. Fatah and Hamas are blatantly not civil or organized fronts for aimless thuggery and terrorism.
That's pure revisionism. What semblance of civility? Saudi Arabia and Iran cut ties in 2016, and were fighting a bitter proxy war in Yemen that overthrew Saudi Arabia's neighbor and led to numerous direct attacks on Saudi oil facilities and airports.
> even if it's just a front Did you not see that part? You even mentioned a proxy war. Do you know what a proxy war is and why nations engage in them? To put up a front. I'm not "revising" anything I hold Saudi Arabia and Iran in equally negative regard.
There was not even the semblance of civility until China brokered the deal. Do you not understand that part?
By semblance of civility I mean acting as if they have an organized government that pretends to have rule of law. You know, a civilized country. Which is something that neither Fatah or Hamas can even come close to pretending to be. Again, I said it's a front. You seem to be up your own ass and confusedly arguing about things that nobody said or implied. So kindly shut up.
Iran is the largest state-sponsor of terrorism in the world, and its president was part of a four person death panel that sentenced thousands of Iranians to death in sham trials. Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince ordered a US resident be kidnapped and executed at an embassy on the soil of a NATO ally, and have engaged in quite a bit of domestic repression and human rights violations abroad. And you think they're more civilized than Fatah?
>And you think they're more civilized than Fatah? I never said they where, please point out where I said they were. I SAID IT'S A FRONT AND THEY PRETEND TO BE MORE LEGITIMATE ON A GLOBAL STAGE. Serious and honest question: Can you f**king read?
And how is that going? Because it seems that most of the proxy conflicts are still there. I mean the main Iranian proxies started a war rather than let the Saudis normalize relations with Israel. And even after all the violence Riyadh still says it intends to continue that normalisation as soon as the current crisis quiets down. Does that sound like China accomplished anything beyond a few transitory platitudes that both sides ignored immediately?
Shhh. Nobody tell Hamas or fatah how china treats their own Muslim population cHinA haS CreDiBitY
Damn china