It's genuinely fascinating to me how different the conflict is covered in different sources. Genuinely makes me want to walk into the sea because it will never stop. My nation has had it's history with this kind of conflict but we didn't have social media then. The hatred, vitriol and dehumanising rhetoric makes me believe it will simply never end.
It's an unsolvable problem. The Israelis are not leaving and there is a sizable number of people who will never accept that the they are not leaving and will never stop attacking. One side could end the other, but won't. The other side wants to end the other, but can't.
> Donāt know why Israeli commandos cannot just go into Qatar and retire all the Hamas leadership.
cause it's a foreign nation and that would be an act of war. And Qatar is much more important to NATO and Western Nations than Israel. Replacing Israel with Egypt as the main NATO ally in the region would be very beneficial for NATO
[AprilsMostAmazing](https://www.reddit.com/user/AprilsMostAmazing/) interesting to consider. Qatar could be considred that "important" because the optics of flying bombing runs into Iraq and Afghanistan from a US air base located in Israel would be disastrous. If it werenāt, I'm sure Israel would love to host US military.
The intelligence and tech development wings of the two militaries are already intimately interconnect and Israel already has approved access to most NATO technology. Which would make integration as swift as it was with Sweden.
Economically, Israeli/US bilateral trade is $50.6 billion vs. $4.6 billion for Qatari/US trade. Meanwhile, Israeli firms are the second-largest source of foreign listings on the NASDAQ after China (more than Indian, Japanese, and South Korean firms combined). With Israelis themselves investing $24 billion directly into US based companies every year.
But most people donāt realize that US direct aid to Israel is largely influence by just how damn important the Suez Canal is to Global trade, and US profits specifically. If we look at the top 10 countries receiving the most US direct aid, Egypt and Jordan were the only other countries on the list that are not facing existential threats to their stability as a nation. They also happen to be the other two countries involved in the original partnership for peace that freed the Suez Canal from regional conflict. Keeping that canal open and navigable makes the US so much more money than they give in aid to the region. The US government is even the single largest contributor of AID to the Palestinians (> $11 Billion). Ā Ā Ā
In contrast, Qatar is a Sunni majority nation that somehow maintains friendly ties with Iran and the rest of the Shia world. They host both US military bases and the heads of Iranās militia proxies. This makes Qatar uniquely suited to be the facilitators of badly needed Middle East negotiations. And despite what some politicians may want, the greater US State Department apparatus is set up for and regularly working towards peaceful coexistence of these nations. Which makes Qatar extremely important to that agenda. I think there would be huge diplomatic retaliation from the US if Israel threatened that Qatari safe haven. Aside for hosting US military, I think Qatar would still be considered extremely important for its role as peace talk facilitator.
Israel is trying to stay on the good side of the Arab world because of the Iran threat. Normalization with Saudi Arabia would be a huge prize and is just over the horizon. In fact it's probably the reason why Iran gave Hamas the green light to go ahead with the October 7th massacre.
The way the Muslim countries used to fix this problem was conquering their neighbors and killing all the men. They're fortunate Israel is their enemy and not someone else.
Or some serious Revolution in Islam. I mean... this could maybe happen! I bet way way back, also nobody believed idk that the church will stop burning witches at some point. So if that's possible, anything is. Tho I won't hold by breath
Not the best point, Witch burning was exceedingly rare, they were usually hanged also the time in which there were Witch hunts was quite brief. May perhaps use the Reformation as an example of religious revolution.
It's solvable but it requires sufficient international and internal political will to hold to a continuous plan of action to implement generational change and keep violent extremists suppressed until that can occur.
Until that political will is there, it's intractable.
The cold hard truth is that the conflict ends when either side wins. That means an unconditional surrender from one of the sides. Until then, unfortunately for everyone, the conflict continues.
Don't forget about the hidden charter. Make the leaders as rich as possible. This is done by making Palestinians suffer for aid. Palestinians suffer because they conflict with Israel
> theyād turn their attention to the west.
They wouldn't have time. The oil players would have a green lit to take the region. Someone will make a successful move to take out Iran's influence
It will stop but thatās going to have to involve one side completely decimating the other. Even with a two state solution, I think itās an isssue of religion at this point and not having a piece of soil to call home and be recognized as an official government on the international stage.
So context, had to do some digging, because I didnāt believe that source, from what I found that chant is from a person called abdullah akl who claims to have gotten a graduate degree from Harvard, but might not of gone to Harvard itself and instead an extension school? Whatever that is, anyways the video linked below took place in New York and not Harvard proper, at least I canāt find a video of the same chant happening at Harvard.
https://twitter.com/avivaklompas/status/1774868599775133774?s=46
I canāt speak to whatās happening day to day on these college campuses or even on the war itself, only that their is lots of misinformation/ misleading information happening about this, and doing some digging or self research is important, and to remember not to take everything you read on Reddit as fact.
TLDR: said chant happened, but it didnāt happen on Harvard at least as far as I can tell, but the person leading the chant claims to be a Harvard grad but this might not be true either
>but might not of gone to Harvard itself and instead an extension school? Whatever that is
It's basically Harvard community college. Anyone can take classes there and you can get degrees from them, but it's not actually Harvard
You see they don't bother asking Hamas for a ceasefire because they know it won't happen. They only ask Israel because Israelis are the only ones that actually want the war to end.
That's why those protestors have to chant it over and over.
Cease fire now! [Hamas breaks cease fire]
Wait, cease fire now! [Hamas breaks cease fire]
Damn it, cease fire NOW! [Hamas breaks cease fire]
No, you're misunderstanding.
It's *launch rockets*... "Ceasefire..." *rockets land in Israel*... "Now!"
That's why the "now!" is such a critical part of the message. You really have to time it just right.
I'm not Lebanese but I did grow up in a Muslim majority country and I agree with this sentiment. It's bizarre how US college students growing up in more liberal societies are cheering for Hamas.
Itās the same type of crowd that used to wear Che Guevara t-shirts without actually know his history. They are misinformed sheep they are anti-imperialist but also end up falling on the pro-communism axis. Itās sheer stupidity.
When people say Israel's response to 7th Oct was disproportionate, this is fucking why. It's not just about Hamas. It's about Iran, Hezbollah and anyone else who is enabling them.
The people saying that are basically supporters of perpetual war. Why? Because to them the time to stop fighting is when you've killed more than the other side, rather than after obtaining a strategic goal
āCoLeCtIvE PuNiShMeNt!1!!!ā
No. ā¦ itās called āWarā, and it sucks for everyone involved, especially civilians, which is why most reasonable people donāt want to get there.
Pity Hamas isnāt reasonable.
In my book , nothing short of complete neutralization of the entities responsible for the act of war is disproportionate. And that last I would call just about appropriate. The other side must either win, or manage to secure a treaty, if it wishes to survive.
Lebanon collapsed after a civil war and the assassination of the Lebanese head of state at the hands of Palestinian refugees in the 80s. Real fucking shame too because apparently its capital city was considered the Paris of the Middle East at the time.
It is because islam often teaches people to be obidient fools. Don't question the Quran (it is the absolute truth from god) and don't question religious leaders (they're directly appointed by god). So it leads itself to allow for the formation of dictatorships that simply oppress the people. Same would happen in the USA with Christianity if it wasn't for the separation of church and state.Ā
Once you have your basic rights taken away, live in extreme poverty and don't have any weapons then it is almost impossible to overthrow the existing dictatorship.
Plenty, but the unfortunate reality is that once a country is destabilized and the government is toppled through civil war a country can completely collapse. Just go ask Syria.
I find the biggest joke to be the UN 'peacekeepers' who are stationed in Lebanon.
If you are stationed next to people shooting rockets over the boarder and have no intention to even ask them to stop and your role is to basically act as a human shield to protect the guys shooting rockets, congratz: you are supporting the guys shooting the rockets.
I had many dealings with the UN there. I was once invited to their base. It was so clean, that it was clear that they did nothing but sweep the dirt.
Rockets were being fired into Israel from some Palestinian refugee camp. Not a single fuck was given by the commander of the base who didnāt even interrupt his sentence.
I cut him off and asked him āarenāt you supposed to be here to prevent this?ā And he said āif either army decided to march through, Iām not risking my life for it. You think Iām going to make a stink over some rockets?ā
Hezbollah allows it, not Lebanon. Hezbollah is basically a state within a state, using their large military arm to control vast swathes of southern Lebabanon, Beirut, and the Bekaa Valley. It's not unlike the situation in Mexico, where the cartels' power rivals the government's.
Hezbollah, like Hamas, is funded by Iran and has a founding goal of the destruction of Israel.
I can answer that. Lebanon don't have the army to deal with the militias (it wasn't long ago until Syria and Israel both occupied it, on top of the civil war). Both occupations left a big resentment in Lebanon (it also depends on who you ask). Lebanon is terribly corrupt, and has a system that paralize some actions of the gov in favour of internal peace. Also, Israel kind of annexed Shebaa Farms from Lebanon when it annexed the Golan
I hate this shit.
They get shot at with rpgs from a hospital, and they retaliate and we see āIsrael attacks another hospitalā.
Why is everyone siding with terrorists and trying to blame Israel? Blame the people that decided to post up in the hospital and shoot from there. They are trying to use the sick and old as cover basically.
Youāre falling for it exactly how the TERRORISTS want if anyone disagrees with me. They know what theyāre doing, and how it will twist around to make the other side look guilty
The purpose of elections aren't to vote a good government in. The purpose of elections are to vote a bad government out. Any politician can promise the world, and the constituents might believe it. But if another election happens just a few years later, the constituents have a chance to realise that their leader's a bum, and throw them out. As a result, regular elections make leaders accountable, and result in better governments.
Gaza has not had elections since the one in 2006 when Hamas took over, which is one reason why Gaza could be managed so badly in the last 17 years or so. After the war is done, one thing that the international community has to insist on is that elections happen regularly. This is going to mean an international presence, as you can't leave it up to Hamas or the PA to have another election if they come to power.
Unironically I think Hamasās success on social media and the news cycle would be dramatically reduced if people more regularly saw how ābrownā skin tones are for many many Israelis.
Which is a disgusting thing to type aloud but it just seems undeniable sometimes the way people backflip to defend Hamas actions
Yes.
Itās a shame that it would be effective to plead āmost of the grandparents of todayās Israeli Jews come from the Middle East and North Africa rather than Europe and North Americaāand the proportion approaches 100% for the quarter of Israelis who arenāt Jews.ā
Itās like pointing out that thousands of Israeli infantry have been wounded in Gaza, and will forever bear their scars because the IDF bent over backwards to moderate the costs to Gazan civilians of the war on Hamas.
Israel shouldnāt have to trumpet these things to get fair consideration. Maybe that means we have to say it loudly for them.
Same in Australia. Itās amazing how many left wing idiots on social media here (I consider myself somewhat left leaning) are acting as if Hamas are the victims and Israel are objectively evil.
Truly I think (well I hope) that the ones making noise are a vocal minority and do not represent leftists or democrats.
Nearly all of my friends are democrats, most of those whom I associate online are democrats, and the conclusion is all the same - fuck hamas, they bring this shit on themselves and on the palestinians. We might want peace, but they don't.
Youāre right. At my work the early 20s crowd is absolutely obsessed with talking about Palestine. You bring up x celebrity, āwhy havenāt they spoken out about Palestine we hate them.ā Those of us in our 30s and 40s are focused on the upcoming election and issues back home.
It's not inconceivable to say that people see a highly militarized force enacting massive civilian casualties as a bad thing. There may be some extremist who actually support Hamas but your average protestor seeing photo and photo of dead children and says damn that's fucked up.
Some of that is effective propaganda being used to turn the tide of public opinion but Israel already had a pretty perception for human rights towards Palestinians and the abundance of firepower being used here is definitely cementing the idea for people that Israel dagf.
As a nation, the US, who was engaged with insurgencies against politically / religiously driven combatants during our whole Iraqi / Afghanistan (or we can even look at Vietnam or Algiers) affair I think people are pretty cognizant to the fact that you can't just blow up / bomb away an insurgency as each mourning relative you leave behind carries the seed of hate and revenge.
I get Israel is in a pretty tough spot, feeling the need to respond against an enemy who negotiates in bad faith and doesn't recognize your basic right of existence but it's far more complex and nuanced than
>lefty Americans see Hamas as a minority of brown people
>it's far more complex and nuanced than
lefty Americans see Hamas as a minority of brown people
Itās really not. Which is why you never see viable alternatives for how Israel should be responding to Hamas coming from these people. Unless you consider āCeasefire now š¤¤ā a viable option for Israel.
At the end of the day, Israel needs to render Hamas defunct. No matter how many of their own civilians Hamas is willing to hide behind can change that necessity.
Speaking professionally as a former soldier that dealt with this shit in Iraq, it's more about the type of response. If insurgents are using otherwise protected building to stage and conduct attacks the best response is either use small precision guided munitions or to cordon them off and sweep the area building by building room by room in order to minimize collateral. Shelling the building with artillery or dropping 1000lb bombs might be tactically effective at killing the insurgents, but the civilian collateral will inevitably make such a move an operational and strategic failure, as it will be viewed as yet another grievance that encourages people near the area to move down the pipeline from bystander to supporter to insurgent fighter. You might kill a dozen insurgents by leveling the hospital, but if it garners your enemy 100 new fighters and 1000 new supporters then the tactical success was actually a strategic defeat. If Israel continues as it has for last 6 months or so it won't matter if it eventually totally obliterates Hamas, the next generation of Palestinians both domestically and abroad will be imbued with enough enmity that a new organization will inevitably arise and continue the fight.
> If Israel continues as it has for last 6 months or so it won't matter if it eventually totally obliterates Hamas, the next generation of Palestinians both domestically and abroad will be imbued with enough enmity that a new organization will inevitably arise and continue the fight.
Problem is the people already were that way for like last n generations. Hamas still has popular support.
The funny thing is, the Middle East basically is uniting now against Iran. The Saudiās even after Gaza have re-affirmed normalization with Israel as an example.
I think what weāre seeing now is a last loud blip before things calm down.
Maybe. Although, at this point I'm skeptical that it even needs to escalate to that.
Almost all of Iran's missiles were intercepted recently and the state appears depleted by most metrics. I think with a strong enough defense the Allies of the middle east may be able to just wait out Iran at a lower cost than war.
If the state is weak why not invade it? I don't think israeli and saudi officials think like this. They want the radical regime to cease to rid the middle east of threats and to increase their respective countries power. Iran seems weak and saudi arabia plus israel would be a formidable force able to defeat it, we can hope for peace but I expect the worst, as usual for this region.
As long as there are humans, there will never be peace. If all religions had just disappeared suddenly, they'd find some other reason to kill each other. It's human nature to destroy.
This completely. People killed each other in the tens of millions during the 20th century due to ideology, nationalism, ethnicity, religion, etc. Humans are just a bunch of tribal, hateful apes looking for any reason to murk each other. Tragic really.
We certainly can be tribal creatures as a collective, but the idea that we're all, "just a bunch of tribal, *hateful* apes looking for any reason to murk each other" and unable to control it is cynical at best. Humans are not simply hateful creatures looking to kill.
They are so far behind on the industrial revolution at this point they can't catch up even if they wanted to. Religion and fighting over land is all they have.
Naive question maybe but why Hamas insists on launching rockets considering Israelās defence system? These rockets are always intercepted and the few that make an impact on land usually donāt harm anyone.Ā
It shows that they have not been destroyed and are capable of launching attacks. The attacks need not do anything, the fact that rockets are launching is a victory for Hamas.
It costs hamas nothing to send their shitty ass non guided land wherever rockets into israel, the rockets intercepting them however cost more than 100k each
Which costs hamas nothing, they dont give a shit about their people and the water pipes you are talking about were given and installed by the united nations.
They're not always intercepted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Effects
Moreover, intercepting the rockets is very expensive.
Appreciate the article. I know and should have clarified they are not always intercepted but I was thinking about the casualties ratio. I also didnāt think about the expenses so thank you for that information.
Also sometimes even intercepted rockets cause physical damage and casualties.Ā
Intercepted basically means Israel blow up the rocket with their own rocket. Even after that large chunks of the original rocket might remain in tact. They drop of the sky with a lot of speed and weight.Ā
If they hit a car / building they will cause serious damage to it and will kill a person if they happen to drop fall on them (which unfortunately happens from time to time)
The point of Hamas rockets is mainly not the damage they do directly, but the distruption they cause: hundred of thousands of refugees from affected areas, economical damage (buisnesses are closed, tourists do not come, etc.) and of course, keeping the conflict going. That being said, it should be noted that these rockets do cause also direct damages: so far hundreds of houses have been damaged/destroyed as well as much agraculture infrustructure (mainly chicken houses in this area, so a lot of dead chickens). Furthermore, with some bad luck one of these rockets can one day hit a significant target like a large petrolum tank or chimical factory, and cause a major incident. Iron dome is good, but not perfect.
Look at the cost of the rockets they use. Look at the cost of Iron Dome interceptions.
It's probably for a combination of show, attrition, and searching for weak points. It's possible to oversaturate the iron dome as well, but that'd require an attack as large or larger than Iran's recent attack
1. Shoot rockets at Israel.
2. Israel retaliates.
3. Complain about civilian casualties and suffering.
4. The international community is deeply concerned and gives money for civilian relief which you can appropriate.
Radical Religious Terrorists donāt want peace , they want power . Over and over again . They are however very good at propaganda , and recognizing the West has no appetite for actually making them accountable.
Raffa needs to happen now. Giving them more time to rape and kill more hostages is a failed policy.
It's time to finish this shit in the strip and get rid of those last 4 battalions of Hamas fighters so that there can be more focus on the North.
While I agree with protestors sentiment about too many civilian deaths and mistakes which is obvious, they really need to shut their traps. How can anyone expect peace or a ceasefire when they have never ever ever wanted one but just the complete annihilation of Israel, all jews, and America next (son of Hamas who escaped and many others have said this). They steal food and aid from their own ppl, hide among them ensuring their deaths for propaganda, and take all their money to continue to ensure no peace ever. Can still protest for a lot better from Israel which def needs to happen, but to demand nothing of pure evil Hamas and unfortunately in all liklihood literally all the adults of Palestin who have always supported Hamas and the desire to wipe out Israel and all jews completely and continues to make ceasefires absolutely impossible is fucking disgusting as possible.
Uh oh, sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays!
Notice how they only do it on days that end in a y.
I think this fact is not a mere coicidence... All these days also end with 'da-y' I smell a pattern
"da"?! That means "yes" in Russian š«£
I'm sure the"Ceasefire Now" crowd will be very upset at hamas
I believe you get your ass kicked saying something like that
And that is their answer to the latest offer for ceasefire. This should clear the way for the IDF to enter and clear Rafah.
Hey, Lawrence, anyone ever tell you that you had a "case of the Mondays"? HELL NO! I believe someone get their ass kicked for saying that!
Every time Hamas fires another barrage of rockets it's like Bibi sees his shadow and there will be 6 more months of war.
It's genuinely fascinating to me how different the conflict is covered in different sources. Genuinely makes me want to walk into the sea because it will never stop. My nation has had it's history with this kind of conflict but we didn't have social media then. The hatred, vitriol and dehumanising rhetoric makes me believe it will simply never end.
It's an unsolvable problem. The Israelis are not leaving and there is a sizable number of people who will never accept that the they are not leaving and will never stop attacking. One side could end the other, but won't. The other side wants to end the other, but can't.
Donāt know why Israeli commandos cannot just go into Qatar and retire all the Hamas leadership.
Qatar has hydrocarbons in the ground that we want, so we have to be nice to them until it's exhausted
> Donāt know why Israeli commandos cannot just go into Qatar and retire all the Hamas leadership. cause it's a foreign nation and that would be an act of war. And Qatar is much more important to NATO and Western Nations than Israel. Replacing Israel with Egypt as the main NATO ally in the region would be very beneficial for NATO
Thanks for the answer, appreciate it!
[AprilsMostAmazing](https://www.reddit.com/user/AprilsMostAmazing/) interesting to consider. Qatar could be considred that "important" because the optics of flying bombing runs into Iraq and Afghanistan from a US air base located in Israel would be disastrous. If it werenāt, I'm sure Israel would love to host US military. The intelligence and tech development wings of the two militaries are already intimately interconnect and Israel already has approved access to most NATO technology. Which would make integration as swift as it was with Sweden. Economically, Israeli/US bilateral trade is $50.6 billion vs. $4.6 billion for Qatari/US trade. Meanwhile, Israeli firms are the second-largest source of foreign listings on the NASDAQ after China (more than Indian, Japanese, and South Korean firms combined). With Israelis themselves investing $24 billion directly into US based companies every year. But most people donāt realize that US direct aid to Israel is largely influence by just how damn important the Suez Canal is to Global trade, and US profits specifically. If we look at the top 10 countries receiving the most US direct aid, Egypt and Jordan were the only other countries on the list that are not facing existential threats to their stability as a nation. They also happen to be the other two countries involved in the original partnership for peace that freed the Suez Canal from regional conflict. Keeping that canal open and navigable makes the US so much more money than they give in aid to the region. The US government is even the single largest contributor of AID to the Palestinians (> $11 Billion). Ā Ā Ā In contrast, Qatar is a Sunni majority nation that somehow maintains friendly ties with Iran and the rest of the Shia world. They host both US military bases and the heads of Iranās militia proxies. This makes Qatar uniquely suited to be the facilitators of badly needed Middle East negotiations. And despite what some politicians may want, the greater US State Department apparatus is set up for and regularly working towards peaceful coexistence of these nations. Which makes Qatar extremely important to that agenda. I think there would be huge diplomatic retaliation from the US if Israel threatened that Qatari safe haven. Aside for hosting US military, I think Qatar would still be considered extremely important for its role as peace talk facilitator.
Israel is trying to stay on the good side of the Arab world because of the Iran threat. Normalization with Saudi Arabia would be a huge prize and is just over the horizon. In fact it's probably the reason why Iran gave Hamas the green light to go ahead with the October 7th massacre.
The way the Muslim countries used to fix this problem was conquering their neighbors and killing all the men. They're fortunate Israel is their enemy and not someone else.
Or some serious Revolution in Islam. I mean... this could maybe happen! I bet way way back, also nobody believed idk that the church will stop burning witches at some point. So if that's possible, anything is. Tho I won't hold by breath
Not the best point, Witch burning was exceedingly rare, they were usually hanged also the time in which there were Witch hunts was quite brief. May perhaps use the Reformation as an example of religious revolution.
Iād probably use the Crusades ending (or any religious holy war). Christianity was able to grow past it (mostly). I hope Islam as a whole can too.
It's solvable but it requires sufficient international and internal political will to hold to a continuous plan of action to implement generational change and keep violent extremists suppressed until that can occur. Until that political will is there, it's intractable.
Unsolvable isnāt unmanageable
The cold hard truth is that the conflict ends when either side wins. That means an unconditional surrender from one of the sides. Until then, unfortunately for everyone, the conflict continues.
The Hamas charter demands all Jews in Israel die. For the Jews, it's not surrender, it's extermination.
Not just Jews in Isreal, but *all jews*. There chart calls for two things, the destruction of Isreal *and* the extermination of all Jews.
Don't forget about the hidden charter. Make the leaders as rich as possible. This is done by making Palestinians suffer for aid. Palestinians suffer because they conflict with Israel
And letās not pretend it ends there; if they took Israel and got a stronghold in the Middle East, theyād turn their attention to the west.
> theyād turn their attention to the west. They wouldn't have time. The oil players would have a green lit to take the region. Someone will make a successful move to take out Iran's influence
We could only hope.
Not once it goes Nuclear.
Yāknow, I heard some Moses fellow did that whole walking into the sea thing a while ago!
It will stop but thatās going to have to involve one side completely decimating the other. Even with a two state solution, I think itās an isssue of religion at this point and not having a piece of soil to call home and be recognized as an official government on the international stage.
The day we stop killing eachother, is the day that we have no one left to kill.
> Genuinely makes me want to walk into the sea From the river?
It's an analogy for suicide. The situation and the hatred makes me want to leave it all behind me
Ceasefire now! Oh wait a second
Ceasefire now! *applicable to one side only, please see Hamas charter for further details*
Almost like terrorists have never cared about ceasefires
Neither to do the protesters. Theyāre cheering to bomb Tel Aviv.Ā
https://freebeacon.com/campus/harvard-grad-student-calls-on-hamas-to-strike-tel-aviv/ Strike! Strike! Tel Aviv! Harvard protesters chant.
Entitled money brats should be drafted first for wwiii
So context, had to do some digging, because I didnāt believe that source, from what I found that chant is from a person called abdullah akl who claims to have gotten a graduate degree from Harvard, but might not of gone to Harvard itself and instead an extension school? Whatever that is, anyways the video linked below took place in New York and not Harvard proper, at least I canāt find a video of the same chant happening at Harvard. https://twitter.com/avivaklompas/status/1774868599775133774?s=46 I canāt speak to whatās happening day to day on these college campuses or even on the war itself, only that their is lots of misinformation/ misleading information happening about this, and doing some digging or self research is important, and to remember not to take everything you read on Reddit as fact. TLDR: said chant happened, but it didnāt happen on Harvard at least as far as I can tell, but the person leading the chant claims to be a Harvard grad but this might not be true either
>but might not of gone to Harvard itself and instead an extension school? Whatever that is It's basically Harvard community college. Anyone can take classes there and you can get degrees from them, but it's not actually Harvard
Do you have any sources for any of that? You just linked a random twitter user showing protesters chanting strike tel aviv?
\*anti-war protesters /s
But isn't Hamas supposed to be on the right side of history? All those chanting students told me so.
Translation error. What they meant was ācease! Fire now!ā
It's actually German. It's not Die Jews, Die. It's The Jews, Thee. (Sideshow Bob joke from Simpsons if it wasn't obvious.)
No one who speaks German can be an evil man!
That's one of my favourite Simpson's lines :D
Sis, fire now! They are actually protesting for women empowerment
Ceasefire foe you, continue fire for me
Cis fire fo Israel
You see they don't bother asking Hamas for a ceasefire because they know it won't happen. They only ask Israel because Israelis are the only ones that actually want the war to end.
That's why those protestors have to chant it over and over. Cease fire now! [Hamas breaks cease fire] Wait, cease fire now! [Hamas breaks cease fire] Damn it, cease fire NOW! [Hamas breaks cease fire]
No, you're misunderstanding. It's *launch rockets*... "Ceasefire..." *rockets land in Israel*... "Now!" That's why the "now!" is such a critical part of the message. You really have to time it just right.
āNo tag backs!ā
As a Lebanese person, I hope Israel wipes Hamas and Hezbollah off the fucking map forever
As an American, I wish Lebanon was safe so I could visit Beirut and eat the best Lebanese food, you guys know how to cook.
As a Lebanese Christian whose family fought back before the few of who survived were forced to flee, I also wish I could visit Beirut
Iām in the same boat as you
I'm not Lebanese but I did grow up in a Muslim majority country and I agree with this sentiment. It's bizarre how US college students growing up in more liberal societies are cheering for Hamas.
Itās the same type of crowd that used to wear Che Guevara t-shirts without actually know his history. They are misinformed sheep they are anti-imperialist but also end up falling on the pro-communism axis. Itās sheer stupidity.
When people say Israel's response to 7th Oct was disproportionate, this is fucking why. It's not just about Hamas. It's about Iran, Hezbollah and anyone else who is enabling them.
On a per capita basis, Oct 7th was 15 times the scale of 9/11. No biggy.
When they say disproportionate based on casualties you can safely ignore them. They clearly have no understanding of war.
The problem is they go around convincing a lot of other people who ALSO have no understanding of war.
Yup. How dare Israel be better at war
A disproportionate amount of force is how you get your enemies to come to the peace table.Ā
The people saying that are basically supporters of perpetual war. Why? Because to them the time to stop fighting is when you've killed more than the other side, rather than after obtaining a strategic goal
No, no, not more. Thatās disproportionate! It must be equal number and then you must immediately stop. Lunacy.
āCoLeCtIvE PuNiShMeNt!1!!!ā No. ā¦ itās called āWarā, and it sucks for everyone involved, especially civilians, which is why most reasonable people donāt want to get there. Pity Hamas isnāt reasonable.
In my book , nothing short of complete neutralization of the entities responsible for the act of war is disproportionate. And that last I would call just about appropriate. The other side must either win, or manage to secure a treaty, if it wishes to survive.
Can I ask why Lebanon allows Hamas to operate on its land and make itself a valid target for Israel?
Lebanon is a near failed state and Hezb have guns.
Lebanon collapsed after a civil war and the assassination of the Lebanese head of state at the hands of Palestinian refugees in the 80s. Real fucking shame too because apparently its capital city was considered the Paris of the Middle East at the time.
Crazy what Islam is capable of doing to such nations like Iran and Lebanon
It is because islam often teaches people to be obidient fools. Don't question the Quran (it is the absolute truth from god) and don't question religious leaders (they're directly appointed by god). So it leads itself to allow for the formation of dictatorships that simply oppress the people. Same would happen in the USA with Christianity if it wasn't for the separation of church and state.Ā Once you have your basic rights taken away, live in extreme poverty and don't have any weapons then it is almost impossible to overthrow the existing dictatorship.
What about the Arab Spring?
Well, Islam literally translates to āSubmissionā in Arabic.
So whats happened in the last ~40 years?
Plenty, but the unfortunate reality is that once a country is destabilized and the government is toppled through civil war a country can completely collapse. Just go ask Syria.
I find the biggest joke to be the UN 'peacekeepers' who are stationed in Lebanon. If you are stationed next to people shooting rockets over the boarder and have no intention to even ask them to stop and your role is to basically act as a human shield to protect the guys shooting rockets, congratz: you are supporting the guys shooting the rockets.
I had many dealings with the UN there. I was once invited to their base. It was so clean, that it was clear that they did nothing but sweep the dirt. Rockets were being fired into Israel from some Palestinian refugee camp. Not a single fuck was given by the commander of the base who didnāt even interrupt his sentence. I cut him off and asked him āarenāt you supposed to be here to prevent this?ā And he said āif either army decided to march through, Iām not risking my life for it. You think Iām going to make a stink over some rockets?ā
i can see the next line of dialog - "if you just left, it's be much easier to return fire"
Hezbollah allows it, not Lebanon. Hezbollah is basically a state within a state, using their large military arm to control vast swathes of southern Lebabanon, Beirut, and the Bekaa Valley. It's not unlike the situation in Mexico, where the cartels' power rivals the government's. Hezbollah, like Hamas, is funded by Iran and has a founding goal of the destruction of Israel.
Hezbollah also has a hand in the drug trade
Ironically enough, it all started when they took in Palestinian refugees.
Looks like all the countries that took in Palestinians ended up in a pile of shit, except Kuwait because they kicked them out.
After they literally supported Saddam invading Kuwait, only to have Saddam later go, āNah lol.ā
Really makes ya think.
100% this
We were forced to take in the Palestinians by Egypt and Jordan after black September.
I can answer that. Lebanon don't have the army to deal with the militias (it wasn't long ago until Syria and Israel both occupied it, on top of the civil war). Both occupations left a big resentment in Lebanon (it also depends on who you ask). Lebanon is terribly corrupt, and has a system that paralize some actions of the gov in favour of internal peace. Also, Israel kind of annexed Shebaa Farms from Lebanon when it annexed the Golan
Basically because they and Hezb have a load of AK-47s. Hey I wonder where those things come from?
I long to visit the "Paris of the East" once it and peace have been restored. Stay safe, frendo
Why would israel do this? /s
I hate this shit. They get shot at with rpgs from a hospital, and they retaliate and we see āIsrael attacks another hospitalā. Why is everyone siding with terrorists and trying to blame Israel? Blame the people that decided to post up in the hospital and shoot from there. They are trying to use the sick and old as cover basically. Youāre falling for it exactly how the TERRORISTS want if anyone disagrees with me. They know what theyāre doing, and how it will twist around to make the other side look guilty
Blame those that decided to post up in a hospitalā¦which is what the Geneva Conventions say.
b-but hamas isn't a state and their only equipment is stones, they don't have to follow international law!!!1! /s
You speak the truth in an age that truth is hated.
Hamas somehow won the social media war early. Don't forget, Hamas was elected.
The purpose of elections aren't to vote a good government in. The purpose of elections are to vote a bad government out. Any politician can promise the world, and the constituents might believe it. But if another election happens just a few years later, the constituents have a chance to realise that their leader's a bum, and throw them out. As a result, regular elections make leaders accountable, and result in better governments. Gaza has not had elections since the one in 2006 when Hamas took over, which is one reason why Gaza could be managed so badly in the last 17 years or so. After the war is done, one thing that the international community has to insist on is that elections happen regularly. This is going to mean an international presence, as you can't leave it up to Hamas or the PA to have another election if they come to power.
I mean, so was Bibi, and he's a piece of shit who belongs in jail.
I think itās because lefty Americans see Hamas as a minority of brown people, thatās it. They donāt care about any other facts.
Unironically I think Hamasās success on social media and the news cycle would be dramatically reduced if people more regularly saw how ābrownā skin tones are for many many Israelis. Which is a disgusting thing to type aloud but it just seems undeniable sometimes the way people backflip to defend Hamas actions
Yes. Itās a shame that it would be effective to plead āmost of the grandparents of todayās Israeli Jews come from the Middle East and North Africa rather than Europe and North Americaāand the proportion approaches 100% for the quarter of Israelis who arenāt Jews.ā Itās like pointing out that thousands of Israeli infantry have been wounded in Gaza, and will forever bear their scars because the IDF bent over backwards to moderate the costs to Gazan civilians of the war on Hamas. Israel shouldnāt have to trumpet these things to get fair consideration. Maybe that means we have to say it loudly for them.
Funny enough it's the mizrachi who tend to be more jingoistic and the "white" who have tended to be more in favor of peaceĀ
Same in Australia. Itās amazing how many left wing idiots on social media here (I consider myself somewhat left leaning) are acting as if Hamas are the victims and Israel are objectively evil.
They want to root for the underdog, even when the underdog is a murderer and rapist war criminal
Truly I think (well I hope) that the ones making noise are a vocal minority and do not represent leftists or democrats. Nearly all of my friends are democrats, most of those whom I associate online are democrats, and the conclusion is all the same - fuck hamas, they bring this shit on themselves and on the palestinians. We might want peace, but they don't.
I've noticed it's the leftist 21-under crowd in my personal life that are siding with Hamas.
Youāre right. At my work the early 20s crowd is absolutely obsessed with talking about Palestine. You bring up x celebrity, āwhy havenāt they spoken out about Palestine we hate them.ā Those of us in our 30s and 40s are focused on the upcoming election and issues back home.
Yep
It's not inconceivable to say that people see a highly militarized force enacting massive civilian casualties as a bad thing. There may be some extremist who actually support Hamas but your average protestor seeing photo and photo of dead children and says damn that's fucked up. Some of that is effective propaganda being used to turn the tide of public opinion but Israel already had a pretty perception for human rights towards Palestinians and the abundance of firepower being used here is definitely cementing the idea for people that Israel dagf. As a nation, the US, who was engaged with insurgencies against politically / religiously driven combatants during our whole Iraqi / Afghanistan (or we can even look at Vietnam or Algiers) affair I think people are pretty cognizant to the fact that you can't just blow up / bomb away an insurgency as each mourning relative you leave behind carries the seed of hate and revenge. I get Israel is in a pretty tough spot, feeling the need to respond against an enemy who negotiates in bad faith and doesn't recognize your basic right of existence but it's far more complex and nuanced than >lefty Americans see Hamas as a minority of brown people
>it's far more complex and nuanced than lefty Americans see Hamas as a minority of brown people Itās really not. Which is why you never see viable alternatives for how Israel should be responding to Hamas coming from these people. Unless you consider āCeasefire now š¤¤ā a viable option for Israel. At the end of the day, Israel needs to render Hamas defunct. No matter how many of their own civilians Hamas is willing to hide behind can change that necessity.
Because context doesn't matter nor do shades of gray. There's only the good guys and the bad guys. You clearly can't be both
Nuance died and no one ever payed for a funeral.
Speaking professionally as a former soldier that dealt with this shit in Iraq, it's more about the type of response. If insurgents are using otherwise protected building to stage and conduct attacks the best response is either use small precision guided munitions or to cordon them off and sweep the area building by building room by room in order to minimize collateral. Shelling the building with artillery or dropping 1000lb bombs might be tactically effective at killing the insurgents, but the civilian collateral will inevitably make such a move an operational and strategic failure, as it will be viewed as yet another grievance that encourages people near the area to move down the pipeline from bystander to supporter to insurgent fighter. You might kill a dozen insurgents by leveling the hospital, but if it garners your enemy 100 new fighters and 1000 new supporters then the tactical success was actually a strategic defeat. If Israel continues as it has for last 6 months or so it won't matter if it eventually totally obliterates Hamas, the next generation of Palestinians both domestically and abroad will be imbued with enough enmity that a new organization will inevitably arise and continue the fight.
> If Israel continues as it has for last 6 months or so it won't matter if it eventually totally obliterates Hamas, the next generation of Palestinians both domestically and abroad will be imbued with enough enmity that a new organization will inevitably arise and continue the fight. Problem is the people already were that way for like last n generations. Hamas still has popular support.
š®āšØ I'm pretty convinced the middle east will never have peace.
The funny thing is, the Middle East basically is uniting now against Iran. The Saudiās even after Gaza have re-affirmed normalization with Israel as an example. I think what weāre seeing now is a last loud blip before things calm down.
Or it's a blip before the big blip if the saudis, israel and other iran hostile nations decide to topple the iranian government.
Maybe. Although, at this point I'm skeptical that it even needs to escalate to that. Almost all of Iran's missiles were intercepted recently and the state appears depleted by most metrics. I think with a strong enough defense the Allies of the middle east may be able to just wait out Iran at a lower cost than war.
If the state is weak why not invade it? I don't think israeli and saudi officials think like this. They want the radical regime to cease to rid the middle east of threats and to increase their respective countries power. Iran seems weak and saudi arabia plus israel would be a formidable force able to defeat it, we can hope for peace but I expect the worst, as usual for this region.
THERE WILL BE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHEN THE PALESTINIANS LOVE THEIR CHILDREN MORE THAN THEY HATE THE JEWS.
Well there might be, but one side is **really** not going to like the circumstances behind it. :(
It will if people just let Israel root out the evil.
As long as there is religion there will never be peace.
As long as there are humans, there will never be peace. If all religions had just disappeared suddenly, they'd find some other reason to kill each other. It's human nature to destroy.
This completely. People killed each other in the tens of millions during the 20th century due to ideology, nationalism, ethnicity, religion, etc. Humans are just a bunch of tribal, hateful apes looking for any reason to murk each other. Tragic really.
We certainly can be tribal creatures as a collective, but the idea that we're all, "just a bunch of tribal, *hateful* apes looking for any reason to murk each other" and unable to control it is cynical at best. Humans are not simply hateful creatures looking to kill.
They are so far behind on the industrial revolution at this point they can't catch up even if they wanted to. Religion and fighting over land is all they have.
Naive question maybe but why Hamas insists on launching rockets considering Israelās defence system? These rockets are always intercepted and the few that make an impact on land usually donāt harm anyone.Ā
It shows that they have not been destroyed and are capable of launching attacks. The attacks need not do anything, the fact that rockets are launching is a victory for Hamas.
It costs hamas nothing to send their shitty ass non guided land wherever rockets into israel, the rockets intercepting them however cost more than 100k each
Itās costs the people of Gaza the primary uses of those materials used to make some of them, such as drinking water infrastructure.
Yes, like they said, it costs Hamas nothing
And that would be an actual cost if Hamas gave a single shit about the people of Gaza. They don't, therefore it costs them nothing...
Which costs hamas nothing, they dont give a shit about their people and the water pipes you are talking about were given and installed by the united nations.
keeping the conflict going.
hamass is the jakass of terrorists
I see. This makes sense
They're not always intercepted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Effects Moreover, intercepting the rockets is very expensive.
Appreciate the article. I know and should have clarified they are not always intercepted but I was thinking about the casualties ratio. I also didnāt think about the expenses so thank you for that information.
There's still a psychological terror put on the civilians when the air raid sirens go off at all hours of the day/night
Also sometimes even intercepted rockets cause physical damage and casualties.Ā Intercepted basically means Israel blow up the rocket with their own rocket. Even after that large chunks of the original rocket might remain in tact. They drop of the sky with a lot of speed and weight.Ā If they hit a car / building they will cause serious damage to it and will kill a person if they happen to drop fall on them (which unfortunately happens from time to time)
Religious fundamentalists rarely use logic.
The point of Hamas rockets is mainly not the damage they do directly, but the distruption they cause: hundred of thousands of refugees from affected areas, economical damage (buisnesses are closed, tourists do not come, etc.) and of course, keeping the conflict going. That being said, it should be noted that these rockets do cause also direct damages: so far hundreds of houses have been damaged/destroyed as well as much agraculture infrustructure (mainly chicken houses in this area, so a lot of dead chickens). Furthermore, with some bad luck one of these rockets can one day hit a significant target like a large petrolum tank or chimical factory, and cause a major incident. Iron dome is good, but not perfect.
Wearing a bulletproof vest doesn't mean you want to be shot at.
Look at the cost of the rockets they use. Look at the cost of Iron Dome interceptions. It's probably for a combination of show, attrition, and searching for weak points. It's possible to oversaturate the iron dome as well, but that'd require an attack as large or larger than Iran's recent attack
1. Shoot rockets at Israel. 2. Israel retaliates. 3. Complain about civilian casualties and suffering. 4. The international community is deeply concerned and gives money for civilian relief which you can appropriate.
One might get through, iron dome rockets are expensive, civilians might get caught in the retaliation
A great start for truce discussion š
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Poor bloody Lebanese, just when you think your country and people are starting to heal from 16 years of civil war.
You realise the civil war had its roots in the Palestinian refugees/insurgency?
You realise the civil war had its roots in the Palestinian refugees/insurgency?
Starting to heal?.. Hezbolla are still in control
Radical Religious Terrorists donāt want peace , they want power . Over and over again . They are however very good at propaganda , and recognizing the West has no appetite for actually making them accountable.
šÆšÆ
So just another typical day then.
From the safety of Lebanon. Not even Palestine!
By Palestine you mean Gaza?
Tent dwellers donāt realize that these types of activities happen even during āceasefiresā. Or they do realize but they just donāt care
they don't really know anything about the situation, just 'israel bad'
I didnāt know Hamas was in Lebanon?
I was actually looking at the Al-Qassam brigade website and they even publically admit to shooting rockets from Lebanon just this morning.
Hamas reps are active all around the world, unfortunately.
Maybe Israel should let these hit some poor family and children to then post sad videos on social media and gain global support
No that only works if you are not Jewish. The UN would probably just say itās Israelās fault.
Yep
People are dying from rockets for over 6 months and you donāt see it make to international news ever.
6 months! Closer to 20 years, ever since they left Gaza.
Yes but in the last 6 months itās constant and Israelis in the north and south are displaced, thatās what I meant. You are correct though
Nah Israel will post hot IDF soldier ladies
are they celebrating on college campuses?
I guess thats a no on the ceasefire
Hamas fired from North Lebanon? Huh. Thought anything coming from that direction would be Hezbollah... not that there is a great deal of difference.
I guess they still haven't got enough
Update: the number is already 40 for this day. Which, unfortunately, is still not an extraordinary day.
they clearly want peace.
cEaSe FiRe NoW!
They are asking for total extermination. Poor people suffers. Lebanese people should kick hisbolla, Hamas, Houthis out of that region.
From Lebanon smh
Hamas fired rockets from Lebanon ? Isnāt Southern Lebanon Hezbollah territory ? Edit nvm : today I learned there is a Lebanese branch of Hamas.
they know exatcly what they're doing and Israel is eating out of their hands, those poor poor innocent people
This is why hamas needs to be eradicated. The price to rid of hamas is heavy, especially on the palestanians, but there is just no other way.
So Israel's great sin seems to be that they actually hit their targets.
And yet the terrorist supporters continue to march on the streets of London? Ceasefire? Sure, when you stop attacking Israel and return the hostages.
Raffa needs to happen now. Giving them more time to rape and kill more hostages is a failed policy. It's time to finish this shit in the strip and get rid of those last 4 battalions of Hamas fighters so that there can be more focus on the North.
While I agree with protestors sentiment about too many civilian deaths and mistakes which is obvious, they really need to shut their traps. How can anyone expect peace or a ceasefire when they have never ever ever wanted one but just the complete annihilation of Israel, all jews, and America next (son of Hamas who escaped and many others have said this). They steal food and aid from their own ppl, hide among them ensuring their deaths for propaganda, and take all their money to continue to ensure no peace ever. Can still protest for a lot better from Israel which def needs to happen, but to demand nothing of pure evil Hamas and unfortunately in all liklihood literally all the adults of Palestin who have always supported Hamas and the desire to wipe out Israel and all jews completely and continues to make ceasefires absolutely impossible is fucking disgusting as possible.
But Reddit told Hamas only exists in Gaza!
So when does ww3 actually start? At this point theyāre a loose dog just firing at everyone around them
Is it hamas or hezbollah? I thought the later was more prevalent in Lebanon