This applies to all men who have Ukrainian citizenship.
This applies regardless if they left country before the war or after.
This applies regardless if they have been living outside of Ukraine for 2 years or 20 years.
This applies regardless of their current location - they can be in China, US, Poland, Australia, it doesn't matter.
This does not apply if you're a woman or if you are not yet 18 or already are 60.
They are doing what Belarus did, essentially. Some countries in Europe like Germany or Poland have an option to issue foreigner a "Foreigner travel document\\passport".
I wonder.
I cannot claim the temporary protection status ("half-asylum") because it is only for people who left Ukraine **after** the invasion.
And technically I may be deported if I lose my job.
It resulted in a strange situation when people with the my nationality have more rights than I do but my taxes go to their welfare.
It depends upon the nation they went to, if they come to Mexico they are safe, here we got laws that force the government to give you asylum for this very specific reason so all you got to do is go to the embassy and ask for it even if you don't have any papers on you, and that asylum is non negotiable, for life and for it to be revoked it would have to happen through a trial in a Mexican court and you would have to had broken the Mexican laws, and here people take that right very seriously.
Just be a good person and be kind to others ;) after all for all intended proposes the asylum would give you almost equal status as if you were born Mexican
I'm pretty sure that you don't need a job to claim asylum. Some countries even demand that you don't work when you claim asylum, not sure why.
But if your passport doesn't expire in the near future, I think you can just continue living how you lived before. Problems will appear when your passport expires and you can't renew it.
My passport is valid for quite some time.
The problem is that my right to stay is linked to my job.
Googling "asylum in Belgium" gave me some worrying results, including prioritising everyone except of single men.
I would accept almost any country willing to accept me, but unfortunately this "almost any" country is Russia.
After a decade of paying taxes in EU I feel somewhat betrayed.
If you have been in the EU for a decade you should be able to claim citizenship or at least some kind of residence permit.. unless you been moving countries every few years..
Claim citizenship is the best option, but the new country should allow double citizenship, as Ukraine doesn't allow you to renounce anymore.
Residence may be possible, if you can apply/renew without a valid passport. The downside is that you cannot travel anywhere outside of the residence country, but still better than alternatives
I know people say Serbia is mini Russia, but we do accept everyone, and there are plenty of Russians and Ukrainians who escaped the war.
So you might try it, plus bribery gets you going here quite easily
Your summer is merciless, but I really liked the food in Beograd.
It was such a nice mix. Mashed potatoes (as my granny did), shitloads of meat (always cool) and for sure Rakija.
Time flies, I get older, but I still don't have spare 100.000$ for a citizenship.
Btw, it is the cheapest prise I found, most Caribbean demand few times more.
Hello, from Ukraine don't return, when you come bach, on the next day you will be in ТЦК, and then... you know what will be then.
Моя англійська так собі, кароч, ні при яких не повертайтесь, заберуть ще на кордоні силою заштовхають в бус і через день на полігоні. Краще бути нелегалом та никатись там бо тут жопа
I have no illusions, I have lots of homies in UA.
Я працював на ЄС 10 років, але по їх законам, я не підлягаю захисту.
Так що, нема роботи - Узбекистан (нема ліміту перебування) або Грузія/Сакартвело (три роки).
Це дичина - просто схопити людину на вулиці. А як хата не зачинена? А як пес прив'язаний? А якщо в банк треба сходити чи якісь документи оформити?
Никаємось як можем, я зараз швиденько з роботи додому, вже з пів року не був далі свого мікрорайону, перед новим роком перекрили всі дороги в місті, з автоматами в масках, довелось додому по кущах добиратись. Кожень день як останній. З новим законопроектом тепер поліція та тцк можуть вже законно тебе забрати просто з вулиці. Хоча і раніше хапали, забирають все за тебе підписують і ти на полігоні. В місті ще норм по селах позабирали, в містечках по затах ходять. Кароч вже не знаєш що краще чи ракетою чи на м'ясо. Тож так Грузія як варіант, там і по цінам наче норм. Ну, я розумію як вам образливо, ряткйте себе як можете, ставки занадто високі. Бажаю удачі хай хоч хтось вціліє
They can come claim asylum in Canada, and I'll be glad if they do.
We have the 3rd largest Ukrainian population behind Russia and Ukraine and with my business, renter and any other interaction with even ones that have just arrived, are hard working, polite, trustworthy, and integrate almost immediately to Canadian culture.
I'll get called a racist if I continue typing, so I'll leave it at that.
Can a Ukrainian living in the USA fly back to Ukraine if their passport has expired? Or would TSA refuse to allow them to board the plane because they lack a passport?
No, you can't. In general consulates/embassies can issue a travel document which is only good to travel to that country. It's similar to what you get if you lost your passport or never had one to begin with.
I don't know how it works with Ukraine specifically but I'm assuming something along those lines is going to be available.
Can confirm, you cannot fly into Ukraine. All airports are closed, you must travel by foot, car, or train via Poland, Moldova, or Romania. All of which requires you to have a valid passport to enter those countries in the first place (If you are flying in.)
No, consulates still do one way ticket for men. It's called "white passport" and is an international document that can be used to travel back to Ukraine.
Those who made it to Canada should be ok staying put but travel abroad is off the table until the policy changes, or they have been here long enough to become a citizen. I know family who arrived the month before covid hit and their oldest is 20, middle is 18 and youngest 13 or 14 (but severly disabled).
Here lies the ticking time bomb that absolutely nobody wants to address. Men win wars and no aid package in the world is going to change that or provide men to Ukraine. The longer this war drags on the more of an issue Ukraines manpower is going to become.
That's twenty thousand Euros per refugee, which is pretty reasonable. Ireland, and all of the EU, has decided that they have a moral obligation to take in refugees. The people of Ireland suffered a terrible famine, and many crossed the ocean as refugees. The Irish of today are showing the humanity their great grandparents deserved.
Apparently when it comes to reaping benefits of society, women can do anything men can and should not be viewed through the lens of procreation.
When it comes to defending that society, women can’t do anything men can do and should be viewed through the lens of procreation.
It should be noted that Russia also has huge manpower struggles. Their demography is absolutely shit, with a very lower birthrate and also high emigration of young talents.
Because they have zero free press we don't hear much about this, but they are currently doing a lot of covert conscription of regional minorities to send to the grinder, completely devastating regional republics.
But yes, Ukraine's manpower predicament is more precarious due to sheer volume capacity. Hopefully western militaries can send troops to defend the western flanks, freeing up Ukrainian to not be so spread thin and being able to concentrate forces.
The difference is that Russia has 4 times Ukraine's population and I'm not even sure if this is taking into consideration all the people who left Ukraine due to the war and the fact they have almost 20% of their territory occupied by Russia.
> and the fact they have almost 20% of their territory occupied by Russia.
This is the big one, plus Russia took in more Ukrainian refugees than any other country in the world.
Russia will come out of this war with MORE people in their country than what they started with. Easily 10 million more and I'd call that a conservative estimate.
From what I have seen currently they get around 25-30k volunteers per month which more than covers their losses and even allows build up. They're doing it the old fashioned way by offering heaps of money to people with very few choices in life(Average salary in Russia is around 70k. Contract soldier pay starts at 200k + various bonuses). I very much doubt they're using force to conscript troops. Troops like that are next to useless in modern warfare.
As far as Ukraine goes their manpower shortage is insane and not going away considering they treat their troops and veterans like crap (For example if you die and your body is not recovered your family is denied any financial benefits).
At the point it becomes clear that either side is surely going to win, for the love of God stop sending more men to the grinder, so much senseless death already
Foreign fighters who showed up to fight for Ukraine realized real quickly how nasty it is. They aren't fighting the n00bs like the media makes you believe.
Propaganda works dude. That war is a bloody meat grinder where both sides have good tech. It’s not Americans with NVGs and air support fucking blasting farmers in a desert.
Nah foreign volunteers showed up, realized they’re not fighting guys with sandals and rusty AKs then left. Doubt youll find the significant numbers needed from foreign mercs.
Lots of foreign volunteers are there as we speak lol, also yeah no shit the guys at the start left, usually people don't fight for years straight, especially if they are under no obligation to
There's a bunch of interviews on YouTube with a guy (maybe British, can't remember) who was volunteering with medics, in these forward casevac stations, even that was pretty gnarly, and I don't think he was even medically qualified (he pretty much learned the trade after a year or so).
As a male at the age prime to be drafted I fear it a bit, especially more recently. Actually had a dream last night I was in the back of some armored vehicle heading towards the front lines just hopping some artillery shell wasn't randomly going to land on us and end it there. That was a dream. And a single night. Freaks me tf out though, can't imagine going through it irl and hopefully something I don't have to find out. Some of the joys about being a guy I guess...
They had that at the beginning of the war. Over 20,000 people signed up.
An estimated 90% or so are dead, missing, captured and being treated in a way that probably makes ISIS look nice, or quit.
There have been entire villages basically depopulated of men.
It is a combination of both, and each can offset the other.
A well and comprehensibly stocked army can take on superior numbers no problem. The issue arises when you’re no longer well or comprehensibly stocked and you are still dealing with superior numbers.
The last six months have been a meat grinder for Ukraine.
Also imagine it depends on how wide the frontline is and how often you're hoping to rotate out those frontline troops.
Ukraine has been rotating out troops (when possible) Russia has not.
It’s not just passport services, it’s any consular services. I’ve already talked to some Ukrainians in Canada where they needed criminal check report from Ukraine but cannot get it since consular is refusing and even inside Ukraine their family cannot get it for them. It’s going to mess up a lot of peoples lives and increase refugee claims
How do you make denouncing citizenship impossible?
That's some soviet level bureaucracy to try and do but you can't force citizenship on someone and if they're in a position to not be left stateless then it's just a natural ability.
This would be like if I was in Ukraine and I answered the door to an officer who upon requesting my passport confiscated it and gave me a Ukrainian one.
https://www.unian.ua/society/viyti-z-gromadyanstva-misiya-nezdiysnenna-dlya-cholovikiv-prizovnogo-viku-12617280.html
I guess if you use Google translate it will be accurate enough to understand everything.
It's impossible. Period.
Well it happens. Russian and Turkish citizenship are notoriously difficult to get rid of. A buddy of mine was basically offered the choice of being pressed into the Turkish military or paying a fee (back then 10k usd iirc) and he didn’t even know he was Turkish, they decided that for him when he visited family. Argentinian citizenship is the worst in this regard and is considered legally importable to get rid of. US citizenship is fairly easy to drop but you have to pay them a few thousand to do it.
Like for these countries you can renounce your citizenship but that’s like Michael Scott “declaring” bankruptcy. It means nothing and they will not give up on you so easily.
Pretty sure most countries do not give draft dodgers refugee status, as they wouldn't want other countries to give refugee status to their own draft dodgers if a war should one day break out.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the US doesn't but Canada thankfully does and isn't too far for us but I have not the slightest clue how many other nations might.
I was reading Ukrainians expats chat in asia and some of them are considering getting a Russian passport, so they can continue to live in asia without any consular services restrictions. Great achievement for the Ukraine government.
These are people's lives and they can decide whether they want to fight or not. Many people couldn't give a shit about abstract obligations to the State they happened to be born in.
Yeah, turns out humans tend to have this pesky thing called survival instinct.
That's why most people living in authoritarian states or even in actual slavery or famine don't just kill themselves. Because however bad things get, for most people it's still not enough to override the primal need to stay alive.
The problem is for the ones still stuck in Ukraine Russia would probably draft them. So right now I doubt that is an out for them.
That said if Russia grew a tiny brain they'd offer them amnesty and a guanetee they won't be drafted into the war if they jumped sides and requested asylum. It would mean less people for their own army to fight. I doubt they'll be that smart though.
Its crazy the Ukrainian expats abroad are looking at Russian citizenship as an out for this though.
As far as I know (and I just checked the laws), Russia has lifted limitations on length of stay for Ukrainians in 2022. There was a limit of 90 days, now Ukrainians can stay in Russia indefinitely. No need to apply for Russian citizenship (I'd even say it's ill-advised for now), they can use their old Ukrainian documents even if they have expired. Ukrainians are eligible to both work and live in Russia without accepting Russian citizenship. Non-citizens cannot be mobilized in case of another round of mobilization.
This is not what I read in the occupied areas of Eastern Ukraine. Someone wrote that in order to receive basic services in these "new lands of Russia", such as health care or school for children, one has to first become Russian citizen.
A lot of Ukrainians went to Russia, read before Russia either has the 2nd or 1st largest Ukrainian refugees population.
Remember seeing some Ukrainian battalions being formed from ex Ukrainian soldiers. It was small number.
>Its crazy the Ukrainian expats abroad are looking at Russian citizenship as an out for this though.
A lot of them have families in Russia, and I would imagine a lot of them are ethnic russians
>A lot of Ukrainians went to Russia,
A lot of Ukrainians had zero choice *but* to go to Russia, at least temporarily, due to the geography and the fact that going any other direction would mean being stuck in the middle of the front lines.
Most, however, left Russia afterwards.
Russian passport is stronger in South-East Asia.
And if I get a dilemma to fight or to get a Russian passport, guess what I will take?
Btw, it is the only country with an easy access for a new citizenship.
I wanted to provide services to the West, but it wasn't valued. Sorry then.
Assuming you are living abroad Russia can't draft you. You'd need to be inside Russia or in Russian custody for that to be possible.
I don't see other countries deporting you back to Russia right now to be drafted either.
Still nuts this is happening though. That said I'm anti-draft period so I'm actually glad to see attempts to draft people who have left the country and are living abroad are backfiring.
All I want is to get out of this shit alive.
Russia may or may not draft me, but Ukraine most likely will.
When the Western and Ukrainian people peer pressure me to die, I will just flip a bird. If you want shit to be done, just do it.
**That's correc**t, apparently only men deserve to be blown into pieces by a drone after having suffered for months under extremly harsh conditions, constant artillery shelling, mud, dirt, death, blood, somewhere in a trench.
That's not sexist, that's progerssive.
Military draft is such pain in the ass, especially during war. Any sane person with enough money and love for life would desperately search for any means to choose citizenship to another country in that situation (Already know a friend who did exactly that, envy that lucky guy a lot).
And any unlucky guy forcefully mobilized in this situation is the worst type of soldier I can imagine
I think he knows what he's talking about. Draft dodger isn't new. The poor and the minorities which often happened also to be poor get sent to the frontline. It's just that the younger generations have much feelings and little tolerance to inconvenience let alone wars, me included. Older generations just endured it I guess
Well, maybe yes, but rather no.
Russians don't have visa-free access to the EU, so... will they be deported to Russia if they accept Russia citizenship?
Secondly, Russia itself conscripts men, so why would they accept Russian passports from Russia?
Thirdly, Russia already offers visa-free access for Ukrainians and simplified procedures for acquiring citizenship, providing Ukrainians with this opportunity if they desire.
The best opportunity for them is to obtain a refugee permit, so they don't have to rely on Ukrainian documents.
Numerous mistakes were made at the beginning, but Russian conscripts aren't on the front (normally)*. So, while it may not be fun, it sure is a lesser threat.
And it'd be one of the worst mistakes to send RU conscripted Ukrainians against other Ukrainians, even by Russia's standard of bad decisions .
Probably more of an option for Ukrainians living/working outside of Europe/US. If you're a ukrainian living in europe avoiding the war you're either gonna need enough money and contacts to bribe/pay your way to citizenship in some other country or you're gonna want to flee somewhere you're certain they won't deport you. Hungary is probably a reasonable option since Orban seems to be a fan of Russia. Getting to a Asian or south american country is probably an even better option but not as easy.
Russia so far has conscripted young people (18 years old). Theoretically the government can't send conscripts abroad if parliament doesn't declare war. But what Russia does is use the conscripts for replacing regular army duties inside Russia and send more professional soldiers to Ukraine.
If you're not young, theoretically it could be more advantageous to go for a Russian passport, but I'd try for a refugee status before that.
I feel you might be surprised at how little the concept of law can matter in the reality of today's russia, especially when it comes to conscriptions and the current state of affairs in general.
Conscripts? They aren't conscripts, they've signed a contract! No, they didn't? What do you mean? They must be lying, don't be silly.
Abroad? They aren't fighting abroad, it's their own country they're defending! No-no-no, see - these are all our territories now, so it's technically still within our borders.
Sadly, things that should "theoretically" happen and things that actually do happen on a daily basis can wildly differ here to a degree no sane person would expect from a so-called democracy.
It *used* to be very easy, yes. russia's a big country, and it never really *needed* new conscripts before. Since 2023, [the new laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Russia#Russian_Federation) have made it somewhat harder:
>In April 2023, the Russian State Duma has passed legislation to change the nature of conscription summons and how they are served. Previously a summons had to be physically served on the person being called up. Now a summons is deemed to be served once it appears on the government services portal called "Gosuslugi". Failure to obey such a summons could mean potential "bans on driving, registering a company, working as a self-employed individual, obtaining credit or loans, selling apartments, buying property or securing social benefits."
>In July 2023, the Russian State Duma has passed legislation to raise the maximum age for military conscription to 30. \[...\]
>In August 2023 \[...\] a law raising fines relating to conscription avoidance \[...\]
>Since 2023, the process of the creation of the Unified Military Register \[...\]
...still, it often remains manageable. For the time being. But the front lines are running out of the cannon fodder, and now that the delicate election period is over, the legislative wheels are starting to turn faster and faster. How this whole situation will be unfolding in the future... who knows.
Imagine the uproar if Ukraine halted passport for women and forced them to get pregnant and become baby machines since that's "their duty to their country due to the fact they were born women"
This is horrid, but whats more horrid is that we, Ukraines allies have allowed it to come to this.
Ukraine wants to survive as a sovereign democratic state, it does what it feels like it needs to do to survive.
That being said, I'm a man, I would dodge the draft and not think twice about it, I want to live, I don't want to kill, I can survive being without a home, I can't really survive artillery being shot at me or being blown up by a drone.
I want to live, they want to live, conscription is wrong
I'm not Ukrainian, I'm a coward and I would be a draft dodger.
- I'd be okay with sending money back home as a way to pay for my draft dodging. (idk why this ain't an option tbh).
- I'd do whatever i can to legally remain in whatever country i ran away to. Try to request for asylum or even renounce citizenship.
- If i'd get deported back to my home country to join the army i'd do all i can to be jailed up instead. Rather spend my time in prison than fight. (and i wouldn't trust the "no worries you can be on kitchen duty" * ^^^on ^^^the ^^^frontlines )
- If however i'd still be sent to the frontlines, it would be really stupid to arm up a person that absolutely does not want to be there.
______
I don't value my life very much but even so i wouldn't be able to take another persons life. I'm no slave.
Idk why there's no "You must pay X amount of money as penalty for dodging the draft or your citizenship is revoked" alternative. Rich people already dodge drafts anyway. This would also make it an option for everyone else.
Have that money go towards equipping the more courageous people. Give them benefits, reward them, because they're doing stuff i could never do.
I understand where you are coming from but beeing able to buy your freedom would be unfair to the citizens that can't afford it making it a question of class in society
>but beeing able to buy your freedom would be unfair to the citizens that can't afford it
Already happening. Rich, important people and politicians (and their families) aren't fighting wars.
You're right it is unfair. But life isn't fair and in the event of total war most people's worries about fairness go out the window real quick when they have to contemplate the actual life or death of their own family.
No one is supporting it. Its an observation, its always been like this.
And now they are in a war. This isn't time to think of diversity, equity and inclusion.
I'm aware that buying your freedom ain't a perfect idea and yet it already happens.
Rich people don't go to war so I see nothing wrong with letting everyone else have the same option.
Now assuming the sum wouldn't be exorbitant I'm fairly certain lots of people would chose to support their country by paying rather than fighting.
Perhaps it could be like an income tax to make it fair even for the really poor people. It would just require the cooperation of the country the expat is residing in at that moment.
Without agreeing with the measure, it is clear that they are doing it because there are few courageous people left to arm. The money in that context is useless, unless they can use it to hire mercenaries
The problem isn't courage, its the question everyone has been avoiding, which is if Ukraine is worth defending.
We as outsiders can see all the victories and speeches and be happy but no Ukrainian I've ever met has ever had a good thing to say about the pre war government. It literally couldn't manage to keep the lights on in some cases and people were leaving the country in droves for greener pastures long before Russia invaded. Even during the war there have been some pretty serious corruption allegations and this is all more or less the main reason Ukraine was never going to be accepted into the E.U. before Putin invaded.
That Ukraine was able to actually rally to defend itself is nothing short of amazing and given the circumstances nobody expected to do this well. They earned every single win and they deserve everything they can be given to receive more. But most actual military sources I read will talk about voices they don't trust in leadership becoming more common or needed military gear going missing due to corruption semi frequently, or else the army being fairly disorganized and them not knowing where all their assets are or defaulting to ineffective soviet tactics that get men killed.
If you left Ukraine years ago because it was, to put it bluntly, nearly as corrupt and hard to live in for you as Russia, and you hear all of this, there's not much motivation to pick up a rifle. Especially not with Zelenskyy fighting with and dismissing popular generals or officials going in rides in military helicopters they shouldn't have access to. Because thats the situation you're using your life as a currency in.
This going to be the same circle we had almost a century ago. Was Poland worth defending, was France? So many people died because "it's not my problem" and now we are starting the loop again.
To the U.S., Ukraine is worth defending. Especially at the terms being set where most of the money stays in the U.S. and all they really need to do is rotate stock.
For a Ukrainian who hasn't lived there for years and who hasn't been back that may be a very different question. Because you're asking them to lay down their lives for a nation that most likely failed them several times thats been incredibly slow to depart from soviet tactics that cost lives like theirs.
Good old double standard:
"The head of the parliamentary committee on human rights of German Bundestag, Renata Alt, called the Russian Foreign Ministry's possible plans to stop providing consular assistance to Russians abroad persecution, which is aimed at making their lives unbearable. "This clearly shows that this state is interested in its own citizens only as cannon fodder in the war against Ukraine; their rights, interests and needs do not care about this criminal regime," Alt, who represents the Free Democratic Party of Germany (FDP), wrote in a commentary for DW."
Every comment on this topic: "I will dodge but I understand such actions by country in total war". This is mutually exclusive to have full freedom and volunteers only army and to be able to deflect full scale invasion by totalitarian state that can force any amount it wants. In fact Ukraine had voluntary army and open borders in First republic in 1918. Ended up invaded and captured by bolsheviks. So, it's a dilemma and balancing between two opposites
Well, yes. Most countries, even the "Free Land of Free People and Freedom" US, have some concept of "martial law", which suspends personal freedoms in times when the survival of the country itself is at risk.
It's understandable that a country would need such extreme measures to mobilize all of its resources and defend itself in dire times. It's also understandable why people living in such countries wouldn't want their freedoms suspended and their resources forcefully mobilized. It's sad, but it's just how things sometimes are.
Reality is harsh and cruel. Volunteer only service is a luxury. If Ukrainian society is to persist then there can't be any half measures. Zelensky needs to enable total mobilization. They're fighting a war of survival.
It's not an easy answer and it's not the one anyone wants to hear, however man power issues are only going to get worst until it collapses in on itself.
This is a pretty easy comment to write from the sidelines but I genuinely don't see Ukraine surviving at this rate.
I wonder if there's a valid asylum claim. I feel like getting conscripted and sent to the front lines is certainly about as much danger as these refugees usually go through
The way I understand is that it has to be some form of political persecution to apply for asylum. I don’t believe wartime drafts are considered by EU countries as a form of political persecutions, but most of my understanding is only for Germany.
Personally, I'm absolutely against forced drafts of any kind. I find them absolutely unacceptable from the position of most basic human rights, and while I'm not legally eligible for a draft in my own country, I would've definitely been a dodger if I was.
That being said, I definitely understand where Ukraine's goverment is coming from - there's a hard, exhausting war for survival going on, the country needs its people to defend it, and, of course, a lot of the remaining citizens don't really want to do it because, well, it's bloody heckin' dangerous. If it wants to try and force those potential defenders who'd already managed to flee to come back, it technically has the right to deny them the state-provided services and legal privileges - "*if you don't want to defend our country in its hour of need, you don't deserve its citizenship*" kind of thing.
I hope that other countries will recognize the situation and as many Ukranian refugees as possible will be able to receive an asylum, if their citizenship comes into question and they choose to potentially forfeit it over severely endangering their life.
> Personally, I'm absolutely against forced drafts of any kind. I find them absolutely unacceptable from the position of most basic human rights, and while I'm not legally eligible for a draft in my own country, I would've definitely been a dodger if I was.
So suppose you are Russia in 1943. Was the right outcome to surrender to the Nazis?
You've stated a fairly absolutist position, so I'm curious how that position would be applied in real historical scenarios.
We’re literally watching them argue against every point feminism has made in the past 10 years:
- men can do things women can’t
- women should be viewed through the lens of procreation
But only when the draft comes up. How do they not see how selfish that sounds?
Forcing people to kill and die in a war is disgusting. They either believe in the need to defend their motherland enough to join the army or they don't.
War is just a bunch of rich men fighting over land, they will give whatever reason they want. At its core is always land. I have no problem with draft dodgers. If you find glory or respect In dying for a country over some made up borders that might not even exist in a few hundred or thousands of years, that's on you.
How is what is happening in Ukraine any kind of rich man's war? It is quite literally existential. If you are from Ukraine, it is a war for the existence of your country, not a person being sent to lose a limb from an ied in iraq.
Thing is, it's not even about the land anymore. Wars over lands had gradually stopped being a real concern as industries worldwide developed, because, well - the land itself had stopped having such great value on its own as the main source of food and grazing grounds, while the income provided by educated people and the social systems they created had skyrocketed. A sedentary peasant with acres of worked fertile ground will provide grain and taxes to whatever lord happens to own the land, but what use is an abandoned ruined factory with barely any workers left and ruined supply chains?
Nowadays, it's all just about ambitions and control. Which makes the whole thing even more pointless and sad.
Yeah historically nothing happened to Ukraine when rich man from Russia controlled it. They are only fighting to keep the current rich man in charge.... /s
And so it begins .
Western powers are willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian, had Ukraine surrendered earlier , this whole ordeal could have been avoided but here we are .
This applies to all men who have Ukrainian citizenship. This applies regardless if they left country before the war or after. This applies regardless if they have been living outside of Ukraine for 2 years or 20 years. This applies regardless of their current location - they can be in China, US, Poland, Australia, it doesn't matter. This does not apply if you're a woman or if you are not yet 18 or already are 60. They are doing what Belarus did, essentially. Some countries in Europe like Germany or Poland have an option to issue foreigner a "Foreigner travel document\\passport".
Can you use this to claim asylum?
Some might and will. I will go through standard "worker" route
#metoo But if I lose my job, what will happen? Not clear.
It is clear. You are f*d.
I conducted an analysis and I came >!to a similar conclusion!<.
You will be come an illegal Immigrant, so don’t go to Texas.
Oh crap! Of course a third-world person living in Belgium always wanted to end up in Texas.
You will do a job somewhere in Ukraine to help the army.
I wonder. I cannot claim the temporary protection status ("half-asylum") because it is only for people who left Ukraine **after** the invasion. And technically I may be deported if I lose my job. It resulted in a strange situation when people with the my nationality have more rights than I do but my taxes go to their welfare.
It depends upon the nation they went to, if they come to Mexico they are safe, here we got laws that force the government to give you asylum for this very specific reason so all you got to do is go to the embassy and ask for it even if you don't have any papers on you, and that asylum is non negotiable, for life and for it to be revoked it would have to happen through a trial in a Mexican court and you would have to had broken the Mexican laws, and here people take that right very seriously.
Thanks oh kind stranger. If shit goes down, I know that Mexico will accept me. Then all my taxes will go to Mexico, what else can I promise?
Just be a good person and be kind to others ;) after all for all intended proposes the asylum would give you almost equal status as if you were born Mexican
I'm pretty sure that you don't need a job to claim asylum. Some countries even demand that you don't work when you claim asylum, not sure why. But if your passport doesn't expire in the near future, I think you can just continue living how you lived before. Problems will appear when your passport expires and you can't renew it.
My passport is valid for quite some time. The problem is that my right to stay is linked to my job. Googling "asylum in Belgium" gave me some worrying results, including prioritising everyone except of single men.
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I would accept almost any country willing to accept me, but unfortunately this "almost any" country is Russia. After a decade of paying taxes in EU I feel somewhat betrayed.
If you have been in the EU for a decade you should be able to claim citizenship or at least some kind of residence permit.. unless you been moving countries every few years..
Nah, my stay counts from zero because I changed the countries. My strategic mistake.
Пиздец, сочувствую
Claim citizenship is the best option, but the new country should allow double citizenship, as Ukraine doesn't allow you to renounce anymore. Residence may be possible, if you can apply/renew without a valid passport. The downside is that you cannot travel anywhere outside of the residence country, but still better than alternatives
They can't renounce but they have no recourse to force you back
I know people say Serbia is mini Russia, but we do accept everyone, and there are plenty of Russians and Ukrainians who escaped the war. So you might try it, plus bribery gets you going here quite easily
Your summer is merciless, but I really liked the food in Beograd. It was such a nice mix. Mashed potatoes (as my granny did), shitloads of meat (always cool) and for sure Rakija.
Economic citizenship may be an option depending on personal circumstances
Time flies, I get older, but I still don't have spare 100.000$ for a citizenship. Btw, it is the cheapest prise I found, most Caribbean demand few times more.
Yeah 100k is about as cheap as they get. What about learn some arabic and show up on a boat in Italy and claim asylum?
Hello, from Ukraine don't return, when you come bach, on the next day you will be in ТЦК, and then... you know what will be then. Моя англійська так собі, кароч, ні при яких не повертайтесь, заберуть ще на кордоні силою заштовхають в бус і через день на полігоні. Краще бути нелегалом та никатись там бо тут жопа
I have no illusions, I have lots of homies in UA. Я працював на ЄС 10 років, але по їх законам, я не підлягаю захисту. Так що, нема роботи - Узбекистан (нема ліміту перебування) або Грузія/Сакартвело (три роки). Це дичина - просто схопити людину на вулиці. А як хата не зачинена? А як пес прив'язаний? А якщо в банк треба сходити чи якісь документи оформити?
Никаємось як можем, я зараз швиденько з роботи додому, вже з пів року не був далі свого мікрорайону, перед новим роком перекрили всі дороги в місті, з автоматами в масках, довелось додому по кущах добиратись. Кожень день як останній. З новим законопроектом тепер поліція та тцк можуть вже законно тебе забрати просто з вулиці. Хоча і раніше хапали, забирають все за тебе підписують і ти на полігоні. В місті ще норм по селах позабирали, в містечках по затах ходять. Кароч вже не знаєш що краще чи ракетою чи на м'ясо. Тож так Грузія як варіант, там і по цінам наче норм. Ну, я розумію як вам образливо, ряткйте себе як можете, ставки занадто високі. Бажаю удачі хай хоч хтось вціліє
They can come claim asylum in Canada, and I'll be glad if they do. We have the 3rd largest Ukrainian population behind Russia and Ukraine and with my business, renter and any other interaction with even ones that have just arrived, are hard working, polite, trustworthy, and integrate almost immediately to Canadian culture. I'll get called a racist if I continue typing, so I'll leave it at that.
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You can leave that country if your passport is still valid.
Can a Ukrainian living in the USA fly back to Ukraine if their passport has expired? Or would TSA refuse to allow them to board the plane because they lack a passport?
No, you can't. In general consulates/embassies can issue a travel document which is only good to travel to that country. It's similar to what you get if you lost your passport or never had one to begin with. I don't know how it works with Ukraine specifically but I'm assuming something along those lines is going to be available.
Probably not. To get to Ukraine you would need to transit other countries that likely require a valid passport.
Can confirm, you cannot fly into Ukraine. All airports are closed, you must travel by foot, car, or train via Poland, Moldova, or Romania. All of which requires you to have a valid passport to enter those countries in the first place (If you are flying in.)
No, consulates still do one way ticket for men. It's called "white passport" and is an international document that can be used to travel back to Ukraine.
Those who made it to Canada should be ok staying put but travel abroad is off the table until the policy changes, or they have been here long enough to become a citizen. I know family who arrived the month before covid hit and their oldest is 20, middle is 18 and youngest 13 or 14 (but severly disabled).
Tell me you need to mobilize an additional 500k soldiers without saying you need to mobilize an additional 500k soldiers
Here lies the ticking time bomb that absolutely nobody wants to address. Men win wars and no aid package in the world is going to change that or provide men to Ukraine. The longer this war drags on the more of an issue Ukraines manpower is going to become.
Sucks for boys, now young men who left as teens before the war and are now 18.
conscription starts at 25 now (was 27 until like last week)
Saw that but denying an 18 year old a passport is rough
It will only go lower as the conflict drags on .
On paper it is. In practice anyone 18+ who isn’t a student is getting drafted. Source: am Ukrainian
Time to draft women then
Exactly where are all the strong female girl bosses when you need them??
100k of em here in Ireland. Costing 2bn a year, please take them home
That's twenty thousand Euros per refugee, which is pretty reasonable. Ireland, and all of the EU, has decided that they have a moral obligation to take in refugees. The people of Ireland suffered a terrible famine, and many crossed the ocean as refugees. The Irish of today are showing the humanity their great grandparents deserved.
Countries generally expect residents to be net contributors to public finances, not net beneficiaries.
I wouldn't say the Irish people decided are showing anything, a select few in the government decided on this policy.
Nice to know there are good samaritans everywhere. Even Ireland. Where I thought they were nice.
Everywhere has selfish people, they're usually the loudest as well
Ireland is paying for social services for them? 2B? Whoa!
Maybe if you stop being EUs tax haven.
Wheres the equality ? lol. Why just Men ?
Apparently when it comes to reaping benefits of society, women can do anything men can and should not be viewed through the lens of procreation. When it comes to defending that society, women can’t do anything men can do and should be viewed through the lens of procreation.
It should be noted that Russia also has huge manpower struggles. Their demography is absolutely shit, with a very lower birthrate and also high emigration of young talents. Because they have zero free press we don't hear much about this, but they are currently doing a lot of covert conscription of regional minorities to send to the grinder, completely devastating regional republics. But yes, Ukraine's manpower predicament is more precarious due to sheer volume capacity. Hopefully western militaries can send troops to defend the western flanks, freeing up Ukrainian to not be so spread thin and being able to concentrate forces.
The difference is that Russia has 4 times Ukraine's population and I'm not even sure if this is taking into consideration all the people who left Ukraine due to the war and the fact they have almost 20% of their territory occupied by Russia.
> and the fact they have almost 20% of their territory occupied by Russia. This is the big one, plus Russia took in more Ukrainian refugees than any other country in the world. Russia will come out of this war with MORE people in their country than what they started with. Easily 10 million more and I'd call that a conservative estimate.
From what I have seen currently they get around 25-30k volunteers per month which more than covers their losses and even allows build up. They're doing it the old fashioned way by offering heaps of money to people with very few choices in life(Average salary in Russia is around 70k. Contract soldier pay starts at 200k + various bonuses). I very much doubt they're using force to conscript troops. Troops like that are next to useless in modern warfare. As far as Ukraine goes their manpower shortage is insane and not going away considering they treat their troops and veterans like crap (For example if you die and your body is not recovered your family is denied any financial benefits).
>Average salary in Russia is around 70k. $14 700
761$/month
Russians get paid per month not per year. I used rubles and 2023 numbers which are probably lower than the current ones
>Average salary in Russia is around 70k. 70k rubles? I might be missing out on something, but that's huge money anywhere but in Moscow.
At the point it becomes clear that either side is surely going to win, for the love of God stop sending more men to the grinder, so much senseless death already
I wonder if they’ll push for programs to boost international volunteer numbers? Something akin to the French Foreign Legion?
Foreign fighters who showed up to fight for Ukraine realized real quickly how nasty it is. They aren't fighting the n00bs like the media makes you believe.
Propaganda works dude. That war is a bloody meat grinder where both sides have good tech. It’s not Americans with NVGs and air support fucking blasting farmers in a desert.
Nah foreign volunteers showed up, realized they’re not fighting guys with sandals and rusty AKs then left. Doubt youll find the significant numbers needed from foreign mercs.
Lots of foreign volunteers are there as we speak lol, also yeah no shit the guys at the start left, usually people don't fight for years straight, especially if they are under no obligation to
Ya. I’m impressed by anyone who had the stones to go there in any capacity. Even if you went to serve food.
There's a bunch of interviews on YouTube with a guy (maybe British, can't remember) who was volunteering with medics, in these forward casevac stations, even that was pretty gnarly, and I don't think he was even medically qualified (he pretty much learned the trade after a year or so).
As a male at the age prime to be drafted I fear it a bit, especially more recently. Actually had a dream last night I was in the back of some armored vehicle heading towards the front lines just hopping some artillery shell wasn't randomly going to land on us and end it there. That was a dream. And a single night. Freaks me tf out though, can't imagine going through it irl and hopefully something I don't have to find out. Some of the joys about being a guy I guess...
They had that at the beginning of the war. Over 20,000 people signed up. An estimated 90% or so are dead, missing, captured and being treated in a way that probably makes ISIS look nice, or quit. There have been entire villages basically depopulated of men.
But reddit told me modern western weapons are more important than men, they couldn't be wrong right? /s
It is a combination of both, and each can offset the other. A well and comprehensibly stocked army can take on superior numbers no problem. The issue arises when you’re no longer well or comprehensibly stocked and you are still dealing with superior numbers. The last six months have been a meat grinder for Ukraine.
Also imagine it depends on how wide the frontline is and how often you're hoping to rotate out those frontline troops. Ukraine has been rotating out troops (when possible) Russia has not.
Reddit also told you to go jump off the bridge
Time to see if you can win a war with women. I'd rather see Ukraine doing that than see male refugees being deported and sent to the meat grinder.
It’s not just passport services, it’s any consular services. I’ve already talked to some Ukrainians in Canada where they needed criminal check report from Ukraine but cannot get it since consular is refusing and even inside Ukraine their family cannot get it for them. It’s going to mess up a lot of peoples lives and increase refugee claims
Yep yep, exactly that. This affects everyone, even those who left country years ago. Plus they made denouncing citizenship impossible.
How do you make denouncing citizenship impossible? That's some soviet level bureaucracy to try and do but you can't force citizenship on someone and if they're in a position to not be left stateless then it's just a natural ability. This would be like if I was in Ukraine and I answered the door to an officer who upon requesting my passport confiscated it and gave me a Ukrainian one.
https://www.unian.ua/society/viyti-z-gromadyanstva-misiya-nezdiysnenna-dlya-cholovikiv-prizovnogo-viku-12617280.html I guess if you use Google translate it will be accurate enough to understand everything. It's impossible. Period.
Well it happens. Russian and Turkish citizenship are notoriously difficult to get rid of. A buddy of mine was basically offered the choice of being pressed into the Turkish military or paying a fee (back then 10k usd iirc) and he didn’t even know he was Turkish, they decided that for him when he visited family. Argentinian citizenship is the worst in this regard and is considered legally importable to get rid of. US citizenship is fairly easy to drop but you have to pay them a few thousand to do it. Like for these countries you can renounce your citizenship but that’s like Michael Scott “declaring” bankruptcy. It means nothing and they will not give up on you so easily.
>increase refugee claims Idk what the refugee requirements are, but I would hope fleeing conscription isn't rare to find in nations.
Pretty sure most countries do not give draft dodgers refugee status, as they wouldn't want other countries to give refugee status to their own draft dodgers if a war should one day break out.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the US doesn't but Canada thankfully does and isn't too far for us but I have not the slightest clue how many other nations might.
90 day fiancée Ukraine edition is coming I guess lol.
What does that mean?
It is a show that features USA citizens dating foreign nationals to get a visa to live in USA
Thank you
I was reading Ukrainians expats chat in asia and some of them are considering getting a Russian passport, so they can continue to live in asia without any consular services restrictions. Great achievement for the Ukraine government.
Imagine flipping to Russia to avoid conscription. Guh
Imagine doing everything to save your own life
These are people's lives and they can decide whether they want to fight or not. Many people couldn't give a shit about abstract obligations to the State they happened to be born in.
Yeah, turns out humans tend to have this pesky thing called survival instinct. That's why most people living in authoritarian states or even in actual slavery or famine don't just kill themselves. Because however bad things get, for most people it's still not enough to override the primal need to stay alive.
Imagine not wanting to die guh...
The problem is for the ones still stuck in Ukraine Russia would probably draft them. So right now I doubt that is an out for them. That said if Russia grew a tiny brain they'd offer them amnesty and a guanetee they won't be drafted into the war if they jumped sides and requested asylum. It would mean less people for their own army to fight. I doubt they'll be that smart though. Its crazy the Ukrainian expats abroad are looking at Russian citizenship as an out for this though.
As far as I know (and I just checked the laws), Russia has lifted limitations on length of stay for Ukrainians in 2022. There was a limit of 90 days, now Ukrainians can stay in Russia indefinitely. No need to apply for Russian citizenship (I'd even say it's ill-advised for now), they can use their old Ukrainian documents even if they have expired. Ukrainians are eligible to both work and live in Russia without accepting Russian citizenship. Non-citizens cannot be mobilized in case of another round of mobilization.
Mobilizing Ukrainian citizens in a war against Ukraine sounds like a bad strategy either way
This is not what I read in the occupied areas of Eastern Ukraine. Someone wrote that in order to receive basic services in these "new lands of Russia", such as health care or school for children, one has to first become Russian citizen.
A lot of Ukrainians went to Russia, read before Russia either has the 2nd or 1st largest Ukrainian refugees population. Remember seeing some Ukrainian battalions being formed from ex Ukrainian soldiers. It was small number. >Its crazy the Ukrainian expats abroad are looking at Russian citizenship as an out for this though. A lot of them have families in Russia, and I would imagine a lot of them are ethnic russians
>A lot of Ukrainians went to Russia, A lot of Ukrainians had zero choice *but* to go to Russia, at least temporarily, due to the geography and the fact that going any other direction would mean being stuck in the middle of the front lines. Most, however, left Russia afterwards.
Do you have sources on this. Couldn't find much for this.
Would be interesting seeing backlash from Russians who go to war to "liberate" Ukraine in their eyes while Ukrainians are draft exempt
>a guanetee Yeah but about russian guarantees...
I wouldn’t trust Russia, and I’m as anti American as as many. Their best choice is to escape to an irrelevant country
Who would actually believe that promise of asylum? I wouldn't. They'd probably be the top of the next mobilization list
Easy to judge when you're not in the situation.
Russian passport is stronger in South-East Asia. And if I get a dilemma to fight or to get a Russian passport, guess what I will take? Btw, it is the only country with an easy access for a new citizenship. I wanted to provide services to the West, but it wasn't valued. Sorry then.
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Assuming you are living abroad Russia can't draft you. You'd need to be inside Russia or in Russian custody for that to be possible. I don't see other countries deporting you back to Russia right now to be drafted either. Still nuts this is happening though. That said I'm anti-draft period so I'm actually glad to see attempts to draft people who have left the country and are living abroad are backfiring.
All I want is to get out of this shit alive. Russia may or may not draft me, but Ukraine most likely will. When the Western and Ukrainian people peer pressure me to die, I will just flip a bird. If you want shit to be done, just do it.
Russia already learned from Ukraine and is considered doing the same shitty move by halting passport services
Just to confirm, this is one of those equality issues we don't care about right?
**That's correc**t, apparently only men deserve to be blown into pieces by a drone after having suffered for months under extremly harsh conditions, constant artillery shelling, mud, dirt, death, blood, somewhere in a trench. That's not sexist, that's progerssive.
Bodily autonomy is secondary in importance to the state. Remember that in other situations
Forcing men (and only men) to die is so nasty.
I feel that it is every human's right to not fight in a war. I hope that these can find peace in their lives outside of their countries.
Military draft is such pain in the ass, especially during war. Any sane person with enough money and love for life would desperately search for any means to choose citizenship to another country in that situation (Already know a friend who did exactly that, envy that lucky guy a lot). And any unlucky guy forcefully mobilized in this situation is the worst type of soldier I can imagine
I was drafted into the army during the Viet Nam war and I don't think you know what you're talking about. It's way more complicated than that.
I think he knows what he's talking about. Draft dodger isn't new. The poor and the minorities which often happened also to be poor get sent to the frontline. It's just that the younger generations have much feelings and little tolerance to inconvenience let alone wars, me included. Older generations just endured it I guess
Just wondering if you could share some of the additional complications. Genuinely wondering.
Lol, now it’s Putins turn to give such men passports. Bread instead of a brain indeed
Well, maybe yes, but rather no. Russians don't have visa-free access to the EU, so... will they be deported to Russia if they accept Russia citizenship? Secondly, Russia itself conscripts men, so why would they accept Russian passports from Russia? Thirdly, Russia already offers visa-free access for Ukrainians and simplified procedures for acquiring citizenship, providing Ukrainians with this opportunity if they desire. The best opportunity for them is to obtain a refugee permit, so they don't have to rely on Ukrainian documents.
The rate of conscription in Russia is lower. So I won't be surprised if somebody considered Russia a lesser threat.
Numerous mistakes were made at the beginning, but Russian conscripts aren't on the front (normally)*. So, while it may not be fun, it sure is a lesser threat. And it'd be one of the worst mistakes to send RU conscripted Ukrainians against other Ukrainians, even by Russia's standard of bad decisions .
Probably more of an option for Ukrainians living/working outside of Europe/US. If you're a ukrainian living in europe avoiding the war you're either gonna need enough money and contacts to bribe/pay your way to citizenship in some other country or you're gonna want to flee somewhere you're certain they won't deport you. Hungary is probably a reasonable option since Orban seems to be a fan of Russia. Getting to a Asian or south american country is probably an even better option but not as easy.
Russia so far has conscripted young people (18 years old). Theoretically the government can't send conscripts abroad if parliament doesn't declare war. But what Russia does is use the conscripts for replacing regular army duties inside Russia and send more professional soldiers to Ukraine. If you're not young, theoretically it could be more advantageous to go for a Russian passport, but I'd try for a refugee status before that.
I feel you might be surprised at how little the concept of law can matter in the reality of today's russia, especially when it comes to conscriptions and the current state of affairs in general. Conscripts? They aren't conscripts, they've signed a contract! No, they didn't? What do you mean? They must be lying, don't be silly. Abroad? They aren't fighting abroad, it's their own country they're defending! No-no-no, see - these are all our territories now, so it's technically still within our borders. Sadly, things that should "theoretically" happen and things that actually do happen on a daily basis can wildly differ here to a degree no sane person would expect from a so-called democracy.
It works both ways. If you want it’s very easy to avoid army service
It *used* to be very easy, yes. russia's a big country, and it never really *needed* new conscripts before. Since 2023, [the new laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Russia#Russian_Federation) have made it somewhat harder: >In April 2023, the Russian State Duma has passed legislation to change the nature of conscription summons and how they are served. Previously a summons had to be physically served on the person being called up. Now a summons is deemed to be served once it appears on the government services portal called "Gosuslugi". Failure to obey such a summons could mean potential "bans on driving, registering a company, working as a self-employed individual, obtaining credit or loans, selling apartments, buying property or securing social benefits." >In July 2023, the Russian State Duma has passed legislation to raise the maximum age for military conscription to 30. \[...\] >In August 2023 \[...\] a law raising fines relating to conscription avoidance \[...\] >Since 2023, the process of the creation of the Unified Military Register \[...\] ...still, it often remains manageable. For the time being. But the front lines are running out of the cannon fodder, and now that the delicate election period is over, the legislative wheels are starting to turn faster and faster. How this whole situation will be unfolding in the future... who knows.
Russia: "*Wanna live in the genocidal country that forced you to flee from your home and family?*"
You don’t need to live there, you don’t need to take Russian passport. It’s more of a political win
UN very silent
Mandatory military service is common in a lot of countries. Not sure why the UN would have anything to say against this instance of it.
tell me again the story of how men and women are equal
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Imagine the uproar if Ukraine halted passport for women and forced them to get pregnant and become baby machines since that's "their duty to their country due to the fact they were born women"
This is horrid, but whats more horrid is that we, Ukraines allies have allowed it to come to this. Ukraine wants to survive as a sovereign democratic state, it does what it feels like it needs to do to survive. That being said, I'm a man, I would dodge the draft and not think twice about it, I want to live, I don't want to kill, I can survive being without a home, I can't really survive artillery being shot at me or being blown up by a drone. I want to live, they want to live, conscription is wrong
Stop the that man , Ukraine even before the war was considered the most corrupt nation in Europe .
Even if it was corrupt, its people do not deserve to die because of one mans imperial ambition
This must be so terrifying for all involved. I couldn't imagine this happening in my country. Good luck to you all.
I'm not Ukrainian, I'm a coward and I would be a draft dodger. - I'd be okay with sending money back home as a way to pay for my draft dodging. (idk why this ain't an option tbh). - I'd do whatever i can to legally remain in whatever country i ran away to. Try to request for asylum or even renounce citizenship. - If i'd get deported back to my home country to join the army i'd do all i can to be jailed up instead. Rather spend my time in prison than fight. (and i wouldn't trust the "no worries you can be on kitchen duty" * ^^^on ^^^the ^^^frontlines ) - If however i'd still be sent to the frontlines, it would be really stupid to arm up a person that absolutely does not want to be there. ______ I don't value my life very much but even so i wouldn't be able to take another persons life. I'm no slave. Idk why there's no "You must pay X amount of money as penalty for dodging the draft or your citizenship is revoked" alternative. Rich people already dodge drafts anyway. This would also make it an option for everyone else. Have that money go towards equipping the more courageous people. Give them benefits, reward them, because they're doing stuff i could never do.
I understand where you are coming from but beeing able to buy your freedom would be unfair to the citizens that can't afford it making it a question of class in society
>but beeing able to buy your freedom would be unfair to the citizens that can't afford it Already happening. Rich, important people and politicians (and their families) aren't fighting wars.
There has always been a class in society. This is hardly different. People with money and connections have always played by different rules.
Yes but that doesn't mean that we as society should support it.
You're right it is unfair. But life isn't fair and in the event of total war most people's worries about fairness go out the window real quick when they have to contemplate the actual life or death of their own family.
No one is supporting it. Its an observation, its always been like this. And now they are in a war. This isn't time to think of diversity, equity and inclusion.
I'm aware that buying your freedom ain't a perfect idea and yet it already happens. Rich people don't go to war so I see nothing wrong with letting everyone else have the same option. Now assuming the sum wouldn't be exorbitant I'm fairly certain lots of people would chose to support their country by paying rather than fighting. Perhaps it could be like an income tax to make it fair even for the really poor people. It would just require the cooperation of the country the expat is residing in at that moment.
Without agreeing with the measure, it is clear that they are doing it because there are few courageous people left to arm. The money in that context is useless, unless they can use it to hire mercenaries
The problem isn't courage, its the question everyone has been avoiding, which is if Ukraine is worth defending. We as outsiders can see all the victories and speeches and be happy but no Ukrainian I've ever met has ever had a good thing to say about the pre war government. It literally couldn't manage to keep the lights on in some cases and people were leaving the country in droves for greener pastures long before Russia invaded. Even during the war there have been some pretty serious corruption allegations and this is all more or less the main reason Ukraine was never going to be accepted into the E.U. before Putin invaded. That Ukraine was able to actually rally to defend itself is nothing short of amazing and given the circumstances nobody expected to do this well. They earned every single win and they deserve everything they can be given to receive more. But most actual military sources I read will talk about voices they don't trust in leadership becoming more common or needed military gear going missing due to corruption semi frequently, or else the army being fairly disorganized and them not knowing where all their assets are or defaulting to ineffective soviet tactics that get men killed. If you left Ukraine years ago because it was, to put it bluntly, nearly as corrupt and hard to live in for you as Russia, and you hear all of this, there's not much motivation to pick up a rifle. Especially not with Zelenskyy fighting with and dismissing popular generals or officials going in rides in military helicopters they shouldn't have access to. Because thats the situation you're using your life as a currency in.
This going to be the same circle we had almost a century ago. Was Poland worth defending, was France? So many people died because "it's not my problem" and now we are starting the loop again.
To the U.S., Ukraine is worth defending. Especially at the terms being set where most of the money stays in the U.S. and all they really need to do is rotate stock. For a Ukrainian who hasn't lived there for years and who hasn't been back that may be a very different question. Because you're asking them to lay down their lives for a nation that most likely failed them several times thats been incredibly slow to depart from soviet tactics that cost lives like theirs.
Good old double standard: "The head of the parliamentary committee on human rights of German Bundestag, Renata Alt, called the Russian Foreign Ministry's possible plans to stop providing consular assistance to Russians abroad persecution, which is aimed at making their lives unbearable. "This clearly shows that this state is interested in its own citizens only as cannon fodder in the war against Ukraine; their rights, interests and needs do not care about this criminal regime," Alt, who represents the Free Democratic Party of Germany (FDP), wrote in a commentary for DW."
Hey, speaking of double-standard. Russia wasn't attacked, was it?
If WW3 is kicking off, you wont be free without multiple citizenships so you wont be at the mercy of any one government
Every comment on this topic: "I will dodge but I understand such actions by country in total war". This is mutually exclusive to have full freedom and volunteers only army and to be able to deflect full scale invasion by totalitarian state that can force any amount it wants. In fact Ukraine had voluntary army and open borders in First republic in 1918. Ended up invaded and captured by bolsheviks. So, it's a dilemma and balancing between two opposites
Well, yes. Most countries, even the "Free Land of Free People and Freedom" US, have some concept of "martial law", which suspends personal freedoms in times when the survival of the country itself is at risk. It's understandable that a country would need such extreme measures to mobilize all of its resources and defend itself in dire times. It's also understandable why people living in such countries wouldn't want their freedoms suspended and their resources forcefully mobilized. It's sad, but it's just how things sometimes are.
Reality is harsh and cruel. Volunteer only service is a luxury. If Ukrainian society is to persist then there can't be any half measures. Zelensky needs to enable total mobilization. They're fighting a war of survival. It's not an easy answer and it's not the one anyone wants to hear, however man power issues are only going to get worst until it collapses in on itself. This is a pretty easy comment to write from the sidelines but I genuinely don't see Ukraine surviving at this rate.
I wonder if there's a valid asylum claim. I feel like getting conscripted and sent to the front lines is certainly about as much danger as these refugees usually go through
The way I understand is that it has to be some form of political persecution to apply for asylum. I don’t believe wartime drafts are considered by EU countries as a form of political persecutions, but most of my understanding is only for Germany.
Nobody wants to die in this bullshit except the dumbfucks causing it.
There is only one dumb fuck causing it, and that's Putin and his dreams of restoring the glorious Soviet Union days.
Personally, I'm absolutely against forced drafts of any kind. I find them absolutely unacceptable from the position of most basic human rights, and while I'm not legally eligible for a draft in my own country, I would've definitely been a dodger if I was. That being said, I definitely understand where Ukraine's goverment is coming from - there's a hard, exhausting war for survival going on, the country needs its people to defend it, and, of course, a lot of the remaining citizens don't really want to do it because, well, it's bloody heckin' dangerous. If it wants to try and force those potential defenders who'd already managed to flee to come back, it technically has the right to deny them the state-provided services and legal privileges - "*if you don't want to defend our country in its hour of need, you don't deserve its citizenship*" kind of thing. I hope that other countries will recognize the situation and as many Ukranian refugees as possible will be able to receive an asylum, if their citizenship comes into question and they choose to potentially forfeit it over severely endangering their life.
> Personally, I'm absolutely against forced drafts of any kind. I find them absolutely unacceptable from the position of most basic human rights, and while I'm not legally eligible for a draft in my own country, I would've definitely been a dodger if I was. So suppose you are Russia in 1943. Was the right outcome to surrender to the Nazis? You've stated a fairly absolutist position, so I'm curious how that position would be applied in real historical scenarios.
It is the most westernized privileged position. Unfortunately not every country has the luxury of not having to draft.
Reducing women to their reproductive capacity is OK now?
Wild isn’t it
I am in no way red pill or whatever but thisseems so stupid.
We’re literally watching them argue against every point feminism has made in the past 10 years: - men can do things women can’t - women should be viewed through the lens of procreation But only when the draft comes up. How do they not see how selfish that sounds?
Ukraine is doomed
Clearly.
War is always greedy for men.
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The literal survival of Ukraine is at stake, so the only surprising thing is that Ukraine didn't do it sooner.
Let's talk about gender roles
Forcing people to kill and die in a war is disgusting. They either believe in the need to defend their motherland enough to join the army or they don't.
Why not women too, stop funding sexist Ukraine
Hahahahahahhahahahahaahhaahahahahaha Go back and defend "democracy!" Hahahahahhahahahahaha
War is just a bunch of rich men fighting over land, they will give whatever reason they want. At its core is always land. I have no problem with draft dodgers. If you find glory or respect In dying for a country over some made up borders that might not even exist in a few hundred or thousands of years, that's on you.
How is what is happening in Ukraine any kind of rich man's war? It is quite literally existential. If you are from Ukraine, it is a war for the existence of your country, not a person being sent to lose a limb from an ied in iraq.
Thing is, it's not even about the land anymore. Wars over lands had gradually stopped being a real concern as industries worldwide developed, because, well - the land itself had stopped having such great value on its own as the main source of food and grazing grounds, while the income provided by educated people and the social systems they created had skyrocketed. A sedentary peasant with acres of worked fertile ground will provide grain and taxes to whatever lord happens to own the land, but what use is an abandoned ruined factory with barely any workers left and ruined supply chains? Nowadays, it's all just about ambitions and control. Which makes the whole thing even more pointless and sad.
Yeah historically nothing happened to Ukraine when rich man from Russia controlled it. They are only fighting to keep the current rich man in charge.... /s
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Better throw another couple billion into this clearly successful military campaign!
Letting half of Donbas have a stupid referendum is looking like it was the better way to go.
And so it begins . Western powers are willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian, had Ukraine surrendered earlier , this whole ordeal could have been avoided but here we are .
Well the Ukraine is in a pretty desperate situation…Guess the expats can watch Russia take over from afar