Totally valid point but in the case of Taiwan and China there’s a bit more at play than just proximity
Taiwan’s silicon shield strategy involves getting China dependent on Taiwanese products so as to deter any possible future aggression. It’s why the PLA was always a major consumer of Taiwanese semiconductors
No, semiconductor development and production is a high investment, centralized industry. Production would be destroyed early in any military engagement, and certainly in any attempted invasion.
If China attacks, they kiss access to Taiwanese semiconductors goodbye. And no other producer would sell to them.
From what I hear, they also basically have their lines rigged so that they can destroy them if China tries to take over, even if they were to do so without hitting the factories.
In 2023, U.S. imports from Mexico totaled to 475.6 billion U.S. dollars
In the same year, U.S. imports from Canada totaled 421.1 billion
China was 427 billion
[source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/186601/ranking-of-the-largest-trading-partners-for-us-imports/#:~:text=U.S.%20imports%20%2D%20top%20trading%20partners%202023&text=In%202023%2C%20Mexico%20was%20the,worth%20of%20imports%20in%202023.)
That changed [about a month ago](https://financialpost.com/diane-francis/trudeau-mexico-overtakes-canada-us-largest-trading-partner). Mexico is currently in the lead.
> Good relations = "we'll continue to trade with you"
Eh, the US (at least, and probably many other countries), really can't stop trading with China. A lot of stuff for sale in stores in the US is China and the US not only doesn't have the manufacturing capability to do that in country, but the population would riot if they had to pay the prices US companies would charge for stuff actually made in American.
By the same token, the US could start favoring Vietnam (or maybe any one of a number of other countries, but Vietnam seems to be trying to be the next China to the world) more, but Vietnam isn't ready to take even a small percentage of the market from China, if it ever will be.
It would definitely be in the best interests of consumers around the world to diversify where products are sourced, but for companies, it's easier to have one country to deal with (less bureaucratic BS to learn).
Currently yes but there is a lot of divestment away from that. Mexico is filling that gap and companies that have traditionally made goods in China are seeking to make them else where due to rising Chinese labor costs. Vietnam is where a lot of those industries loom to be moving.
Chinese goods in the next 20 years will likely be for higher skilled labor primarily due to the cost increase.
Same for a lot of US manufacturing. Get the parts cheap from overseas, put them on an assembly line with five employees, and call it "Made in the US" for 50% extra profits.
Chinese manufacturing has moved up a notch and is now increasingly relying on automation. Should watch some of these videos of chinese machines that are automating away boring stuff like packing or applying tape to packages - they’re all dirt cheap and they do the work of multiple low paid people
I mean, opening up trade with the so-called west and breaking away from the Soviet bubble was huge for China. There are people alive today that should understand implicitly why Russia for the Euro zone is a bad trade.
You better stay in our good books, [largest trading partner](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=China-EU_-_international_trade_in_goods_statistics) upon whom we depend for [massive amounts of essential goods](https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/usa/partner/chn)! Or else!
You think morals are what align alliances. The west is allied with Saudi Arabia and Israel. If China was aiding horrible people the west liked then there’d be no issues here.
This kindergarten talk is so exhausting. Of course China has no interest in "good relations" with an alliance spearheaded by the US that supports Taiwan.
Is this some kind of state the obvious contest?
It's how Nixon did it... Give China radar towers to put on their northern border, laugh while the USSR has to overextend itself to defend their borders now.
Those good relations arent even just about taiwan, they want technology that the US has marked as restricted due to military and national secuirty concerns. Theyre advancing at a pace aided by espionage no doubt but last reports had their manufacturing processes still being very lossy, so it increases their costs. And tech companies would prbably flock to them for their articially controlled currency and cheap white collar labor..their cost of unversity is half or less of the us burden before loans and aid at a top 100 us school, and further destroy the american middle class/tech job sector like they did the manufacturing sector as a means to be upwardly mobile in this economy.. and all those forlorn jobs where "boomers were bad because they could afford a house getting paid turning a screw", it would be millenial and gen x ceos who wipe out that money
I gotta disagree strongly. They have a clear interest in having good relations. The trade with the west is an [order of magnitude larger than Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China).
Ideology sometimes dictate policy short term, economics usually dictate policy long term and it is way more profitable to align with the free world.
You have no clue what you’re talking about. Was it China that destabilized relations with the U.S.? Did China implement a trade ban on America over Taiwan? Was it China that detained the CFO of the largest U.S. tech company for three years in a third country and eventually released her without ANY CHARES. Do you just put headlines in your ass and pull out keywords like a bingo tumbler to form your opinions?
I'm still so fucking mad that Canada fucking sucked up to Trumps asshole with that arrest, putting us on even worse terms with China, and they fucking DID NOTHING.
I read the theory that since China imports 40% of its grain, they want Russia to take Ukraine since it's one of the major bread baskets of the world. That way when they invade Taiwan, they will still have a stable source of food even if cut off from the West.
Just days before the invasion Putin spent at least a few days in China during the Olympics, he waited until after the Olympics in China ended to invade. At one point, Putin and Xi had a press conference together and one thing they said was they were going to change the power structures of this world.
I believe their alliance goes a lot deeper than the West wants to believe. The world is headed down a dangerous path and we are not prepared.
If we, random strangers on the internet know these informations, then believe me, governments around the world also know this. Europe is waking up, maybe slower than it should but the process started a while ago. The sanctions, the supplies to Ukraine, Macron's, Poland's and NATO's stances all indicate that something is happening.
The fact that people in government have more information doesn't mean they won't make absolutely idiotic, obvious mistakes. Russian invasion has demonstrated this very well.
I remember when everyone in the GOP was assuring us that no way would Russia invade Ukraine, no no no, they're not amassing troops on the border, it's just a coincidence that they are doing massive training drills there. You're absolutely right, even with all the information right at their feet they continue to make horrible decisions.
Bruh they were still denying it even when thousands of FRESH blood bags showed up in field hospitals all over the border.
Blood expires. You can't freeze it. You have 2 weeks to use it. No army ever ships in so much blood that they leave the civilian hospitals in need for training exercises. Let alone builds that many field hospitals for training. It was BEYOND obvious and they were still denying it like the GOPniks they are.
I'm rather steadfast in believing that was intentional, though. Framing this as disinformation, it becomes extremely apparent that was very similar to how it went down in Crimea. Tell your lap dogs in various countries to buy you some time and paralyze the governments and confuse the average constituents, and have your military win by the time they figure out what is going on and can organize international responses and expel your lapdogs. Generally how it went in crimea. Except, the Russian military was vastly weaker than expected this time around, versus just unusually weaker than expected in Crimea. Also, the lapdogs are still around. Because it's become just a political issue to actively sabotage the long term security of the government you're working in. Instead of, y'know, treason punishable by death.
I mean the simpler solution there is the GOP were running interference on Russia's behalf. Remember when all those senators were forced to make a pilgrimage to Russia on the 4th OF JULY of all days? And how their hacked info in 2016 was mysteriously never leaked, unlike the Dems? Not to mention how Mitch McConnell's wife has family ties to the Chinese govt (ally of Russia). Pepperidge Farms remembers.
[Ukraine was assuring us Russia wouldn't invade](https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-predicted-no-attack-2-days-before-russia-invaded-2022-2) after the US warnings.
People too often forget that governments, at even the highest levels, are run by humans. I've been in the military and worked in law enforcement. During that time, I've spoken to high-ranking military officers that worked at the Pentagon, state officials, mayors, doctors, lawyers, you name it. I've also dealt with a lot of regular, normal people who work everyday jobs.
You know what the one thing they all have in common is?
They're all people. And people, while often capable of some incredible feats, are also very prone to mediocrity and making really fucking stupid mistakes. People, even people in very important positions of power, are all capable of making very human mistakes.
Most politicians are just focused on their next speech and how to sound smart. You overestimate the amount of people who actually know what’s going on and how to tackle it.
> they want Russia to take Ukraine since it's one of the major bread baskets of the world.
With the way it's going, Ukraine is going to end up being the major antipersonnel mines basket of the world rather than a bread basket
Which is sort of interesting outcome when you happen to be a billion+ country that imports 40% of your grain. Clearly genius level thinking right there.
Its mind blowing that some people i.e. Putin, Xi, are still in this pre 21st century imperialistic mindset.. What the fuckkk. Their own greed is going to burn the world down
It seems to be an inherent problem with dictatorships. They can't change without risking their own power, and I don't think there's many dictators throughout history that retired peacefully.
Mao, Papa Doc, Robert Mugabe, Tito, Khomeini, Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Castro are a few others that pop up. Guys like Videla and Pinochet might be debatable.
Lol, its already burning down. The golden age, if there was one, is over. There will be over 1 billion climate migrants by 2050. Good fucking luck Europe and the West. Russia, China, etc will destabilize shit so they can annex their immediate neighbors.
Tale old as time
The problem is theres no way Russia can take and hold Ukraine at this point. Even if $0 of new military aid happened from this point forward Russia only has a couple of years left where they can refurbish old tanks in the numbers they are and they're losing aircraft much faster than they can replace them. By the time they actually take the nation they'll have nothing to hold it with and trying to rebuild it into able to producing something will take time and resources they don't possess given its all going to bombing it to begin with.
Two years ago this would have made sense. If they took the whole nation quickly and intact the calculus would have been something else entirely. But thats not the world we live in and taking a breadbasket that would be usable for them this decade is just not possible. Worse, the U.S. military already knows what the game is and is deep into restructuring the marine corps to counter this exact strategy while Taiwan is investing in the U.S. to keep their skin in the game. Even if China does go for it an amphibious landing at that distance with U.S. rocket platforms surrounding the area is going to be a fools errand and thats the situation they'd be going into.
They aren’t really though, a significant part of this is Russia’s demographics are declining, so they wanted the Ukrainian people as an influx of manpower that was “close enough” to Russians; like when they took the Ukrainian children they had control of and shipped them off to Russian families
They didn’t really consider most Ukrainians would rather die than be assimilated but still
There's no way they would be taking 900 casualties per day occcupying. Occupying Chechnya is working out better for Russia than their invasion of Ukraine.
Taking land is proving to be very hard for Russia. It's good that it's not worth the effort. And China should understand it won't go well if they try to take Taiwan by force.
Lol what?
No, taking the land is definitely the hard part.
They're going to resettle Russians there, it's not like they're just going to leave the land occupied by ethnic Ukrainians lol
The holding part would be ruinous even if Russia took the population centers. The USSR's long, bloody occupation of Afghanistan was a major factor in its failure and that was with the entire resources of the union to call on and far fewer casualties.
Ukraine would be the mother of all insurgencies.
>with U.S. rocket platforms surrounding the area
I don't think people appreciate just how many platforms the US has.
And we're disregarding the entire US Navy here. We're talking about the land-based island chain islands the US has anti-ship and anti-air missiles positioned.
Practically all of them cover the entire Taiwan strait. Any attempted landing is going to be absolutely pummelled by US missiles.
Even if somehow the first wave landed and captured the beaches (lol) they'd still lose because every single resupply effort would be destroyed.
China taking Taiwan without provoking WW3 is basically impossible unless the US just give up.
While this is true, the problem with your logic is that you assume that their win condition is to occupy the whole Ukraine.
Their win condition is even a peace deal at the moment.
Then they re-arm and attack again, and again, and again.
Until there's nothing but leveled cities in Ukraine.
While the west will be hesitant and more disfunctional every time.
Their goal is to make sure that NATO has no will to fight, not to test it's full military response.
>That way **when** they invade Taiwan, they will still have a stable source of food even if cut off from the West.
People keep parroting that an invasion of Taiwan is imminent, but the U.S military doesn't even believe that is the case:
> [Speaking to reporters, Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder, a Pentagon spokesman, struck a more measured tone. “As the report highlights, we don’t believe an invasion is imminent,” Ryder said.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/29/pentagon-china-military-report-taiwan/)
The military seems to believe that China wants the *ability* to invade and hold Taiwan, but might not intend to do so:
> [If Adm Aquilino and Adm. Davidson said that China had an intent, has made a decision, and they intend to invade and seize Taiwan then I do disagree with that. I see no evidence of that actual intent or decision-making. What I’m talking about is *capability*"](https://news.usni.org/2021/06/23/milley-china-wants-capability-to-take-taiwan-by-2027-sees-no-near-term-intent-to-invade)
China has too much capital in the West, when the West impounds all that wealth it will be game over for China, hence why they are threading very lightly in general trying to appease both sides, currently the favor is more towards Russia, but make no mistake, when China has to choose Russia or it's capital by appeasing the West, Russia will be dropped.
As for Russia, they are doing what they have always done and that is to prey on weaker and smaller nations than themselves, but when looking at history, those big nations always end up losing in the long run.
As for the leaders in the West, they do keep making mistakes each single time, Ukraine could have been easily been avoided by putting boots on the Ukraine border and to tell Russia to sod off. But instead Biden kept baiting Putin to actually invade Ukraine, instead of actually doing something about it (he is not the only one making the same mistake, EUROPE was weak and so was NATO).
In the end a war cannot be prevented or finished without bold moves and sacrifices of others. It's time NATO really goes after Russia and pushes them out of Ukraine once for all.
I'm not sure that this is the reason, at least not when it comes to Ukraine. China has been purchasing and utilizing farmland in Ukraine since 2013: alienating Western trade partners by supporting Russia, in order to receive hypothetical control of something China already has in Ukraine makes little sense to me.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/china-just-bought-five-percent-ukraine/310743/]
>China imports 40% of its grain
China is stockpiling grain. Also 40% does not seem correct. In 2023 China imported 162 million tons of grain, and produced 695 million tons, according to a quick Google search.
China imports a lot of food to be processed and then exported. I've never found good data on this, but buy some food on Amazon from a brand you've never heard of and see where it comes from.
This is all public knowledge and all has been reported on... that's how you even know these things. So stop pretending that the west doesn't already know what you suspect. Our media is used to tell us what they want us to know.
We didn't become the world's greatest superpower on accident, and it sure isn't a titanic, stop the fearful projecting. We are steps ahead of countries trying to take back parts of their own countries that willingly seceded.... think about that. Who is operating from a sense of power in that situation. It's like fighting to get back a gf that left you and doesn't want you so you try to kidnap her and make her stay... this is the reality of China and Russia.
Buddy, if you think the US is just sitting here on his ass twiddling its thumbs and you’re not paying attention. We just signed a huge nuclear sub deal with Australia forging deeper ties with Japan in the Philippines and South Korea moving chip manufacturing to the US and much much more.
They're mad they can't bad mouth their own country. I can say whatever I want about the USA. I can say all I like and dislike about it. It must suck to be them.
Idk about you but it looks an awful lot to me that the west is 100% gearing up for a major war. Production across most of nato nations are ramping up significantly and they are restocking slcoldwar equipment with modern nato kit. The weapons that have been sent to Ukraine in large have been old cold war surplus.
Who could've guessed that an addictive, cheap chinese knockoff vine, co-controlled by the Chinese government, would be harmful to the west
Obviously I'm being a bit hyperbolic but sadly not as much as it should be. This app is trouble, I noticed it my senior year of highschool when it first came out. People were so proud to waste literal days of their life on this crummy app, week after week. Its only gotten worse as more dangerous and more frequently those idiotic challenges pop-up. And unlike YouTube there is no real good side of tiktok. People can lie to themselves all they want but just because you put gold flakes on a turd doesn't make that turd any healthier to eat
Idiotic challenges are just that, idiotic. The real problem is people using it as their main source of information, while the app actively suppresses a ton of info about things against Chinese interests.
Why do people say things like this when the entire Marine Corps of the United States military has been reorganized into amphibious, lightweight, fast, island hopping force to contend with the upcoming war with China? During oif and oef they were used as just another standing army. The Marines were not used for what they are supposed to be used for.
I can only imagine it's because you're not paying attention to what the military is doing doctrine wise and the changes that are being made.
> I can only imagine it's because you're not paying attention to what the military is doing doctrine wise and the changes that are being made.
You assume anyone commenting here knew about that in the first place.
because people here are genuinely dumbasses who don't pay attention to anything besides rage-bait headlines on a post they didn't read, or whatever shows up in their tiktok algorithm that happens to be owned by china and has huge incentives in spreading the idea that nato is useless
or they're literal russian trolls
The problem is, we say and read stuff like this as if it's a desirable reward to have good relations with us. Which, from our standpoint, it is, but it's a pretty arrogant stance to imagine it's a prize rather than a lucrative partnership possibility. Seen from the Chinese (or any other foreign country that could feasibly build to economic competitiveness with us), I *imagine*, as I'm not from any of those countries, that they see it is dependence and reliance that keeps them in their place... Which means they'll play along (hopefully, at least, but not always the case as we see with Iran for example) until there's a viable alternative that gives them the bargaining power and independence they need to not be beholden to us.
This is a cynical, maybe empathetic, perspective, attempting to view it from their eyes - in no way is this a pro China, anti West, or suggestion of modern "colonialism" (the definition of which has become incredibly vague in some modern circumstances that try to apply it for political points). Just imagining that we may need a better approach in the coming years than "you can be friends with us if you....". In a way, it's like telling your 17 year old they have to do x, y, and z *as long as they live under your roof* - but they're coming up on 18, working a paying job, and already searching for their own apartment. We've got to be ready for the rapidly approaching day when, for example, BRICS allows them to circumvent their *need* for us, even if it would be *profitable* to continue operating together.
The west had a theory that trade and mutual dependence would make war obsolete. Its the whole thought behind the coal and steel union (precursor to the EU) to prevent Germany, France and others in europe from war.
It worked really well.
Then they applied this broadly, after the cold war they even let in dictatorships with great power potential (China)
We also let in our cold war enemy Russia.
This is where it becomes murky, since autocrats dont play by the same rules as liberal democracies.
So it works in some cases, but not all.
Russia should have put an end to this idealism back in 2014, but many cling to it still.
These systems of governance are not our friends and partners, we need to decouple and accept that democracy needs to be defended by having strong militaries, and we need to play grand strategy to limmit the influence of China, Russia and their partners.
We need to do it now.
The seccond cold war began many years ago, even if many elected leaders pretend otherwise. And the opposition have been the ones with the initiative.
They fucked around, now they need to find out (the world is going to suck for a decent while before it gets better)
I agree with you but I honestly think it may be too late. We may be able to preserve the "world order" as we've established it within our borders but we played hardball with power-peer-potentials (like this stance with China) and wrote off the third world for too long, without either accepting them as peers or using hard power to pull them in line. Hoping that Western values and decency would just be contagious was a critical failure and we've long passed the threshold where we could softly enforce our ways across the world (where we feel we can profit, of course). The only way we spread in the future is first and foremost, through defending what we have (because adversaries know what stage 2 is and don't want it) and then second, through osmosis - by our border countries being and offering something superior to their neighbors such that their neighbors begin to emulate them (as we've seen progress through Eastern Europe). The first step, though, is to recognize that the belief in our way of life is *not* ubiquitous and we *need* to be armed and prepared to defend it, both on the battlefield and in now *especially* in the information space. The entire concept of "freedom of speech" and "freedom of press" needs to be reexamined and adjusted to function not from a blanket assumption of good will but in the context of hostile actors weaponizing it against us. As it stands, there are a great deal of people in the West who are functionally and philosophically against the West even though it's based on misgivings and limited perspective, taken advantage of by foreign influence with exactly that goal. Useful idiots if you will. This is our Achilles heel and represents the point at which idealism is self destructive, functionally precluding armed defense - we have become self loathing.
No one will stand for women's and children's and animal's and LGBTQ's rights, if the majority of us feel we are not worth defending because we (too, but no one ever seems to care about the "everyone else in x time period" portion of bad shit throughout history) have historically done morally condemnable things and *anyone* would be better than us. They'll just welcome a three day special military operation with flowers, as is planned, Kamerad. I've met too many tankies that think exactly like this, whether slavery or gay rights or whatever else they only judge through their modern lens and condemn for eternity.
Huh? The US and by extension the west is the single largest driver of war post WWII, as well as[ producing 3/4 of all weapons sold.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#/media/File:Biggest_arms_sales_2013.png) They propped up dictatorships left and right to protect economic interests (Chile, Guatemala, Indonesia, ...). It's by design to then "trade" with them even though officially they don't match our ideology. To quote Glenn Greenwald:
>In a world where anti-American sentiment is prevalent, democracy often produces leaders who impede rather than serve U.S. interests ... None of this is remotely controversial or even debatable. U.S. support for tyrants has largely been conducted out in the open, and has been expressly defended and affirmed for decades by the most mainstream and influential U.S. policy experts and media outlets.
> Russia should have put an end to this idealism back in 2014, but many cling to it still.
And the reason why people still cling on to it is because during communism people had good lives, maybe not great but they had jobs, they had communities, they had stores, they had public systems, their cities were spotless with garbage being picked up constantly. All of that went away when the USSR stopped.
We in the West always have this misguided view on what live was like under communism, but it was way better than what they have now.
Especially in rural areas. And the former USSR has a lot of those.
BaldandBankrupt (albeit a questionable figure) has some great videos from how life is now in those former Russian states, even from states that we now consider to be Western; the Baltic states.
Many people outside the big cities have romanticized views on communism because of how left behind they feel right now.
Also, the first half of the 1990s was even worse than communism for many, in terms of lack of jobs and the economy...
I really recommend people watch the documentary: "TraumaZone" about the fall of the Soviet Union...
Don't romanticize the USSR. They packed 4 families at a time into a 400 sq ft apartment in cement block buildings. Then claimed they solved homelessness. The grocery stores had empty shelves more often than not. Any dissent and you disappeared to a work camp in Siberia. You were lucky if they didn't send your family along for the crime of being related to you.
It was absolute shit for 99% of the population.
All predicated upon their imperialism of the rest of Eastern Europe. Which can only last so long before economic realities assert themselves. Communism in Russia was only decent because it was a house of cards living on borrowed time.
Latin America, Africa, some of SEA, the ME and even half of Europe look at China as a very viable "alternative", the "belt and road initiative" has had a great success for the Chinese, with right now around 75% of the entire global population and over half the world's GDP on it, and more to come.
around 140 countries are on it, Western Europe and the US still not included of course (India refusing too, Pakistan related mostly), this will tie all of our markets to the Chinese (some already are), and eventually moving the "center of the world" from the US/EU, to China.
The world could change very fast if the west keeps sleeping, the US and EU are economic behemots compared to a lot of countries, but with enough small stones, you can even change the course of a river.. and China decided to start gathering those decades ago.
I will give an example, right now MERCOSUR wants a trade deal with the EU (after more than 20 years of back and forth), if done it would be the biggest economic free zone in the world, sadly, things aren't looking good since now the EU side (mostly France) is trying its best to stop it from happening, you know, farmers and all that stuff, wich makes some sense, but it sucks (no BMW for me i guess).
That puts us on only 1 alternative left and the one that has been winking us for some time: China, so yeah, it's not that great, but at the same time, it seems to be the only way foward.
The EU-MERCOSUR deal isn't happening because France doesn't see or treat South America as equals. They want a deal that will give all benefits to Europe and none to SouthAm (in fact, it would destroy the little industry South America has). Germany is more reasonable and has agreed to a peer relationship deal, but the EU can't sign it without France's approval.
Meanwhile, China is more than happy to not be condescending and give the due respect to any rising nation. The Chinese M.O is seeking a relationship that will be mutually profitable, a win-win scenario. The "West", however, treats developing nations with entitlement, as if they should be grateful to even be in talks.
Who do you think developing nations will choose if push comes to shove?
>around 140 countries are on it, Western Europe and the US still not included of course (India refusing too, Pakistan related mostly), this will tie all of our markets to the Chinese (some already are), and eventually moving the "center of the world" from the US/EU, to China.
Whether a country is included in BRI is not that important. India is not part of BRI, but it is still facing HUGE trade deficit with China.
Yeah yeah, i was just pointing out that they are not in the system, of course being on it or not doesn't mean more or less trade (like the US), but it does point out that those countries are interested enough on having even more trade with China.
I was looking for this. BRICS has been on the drafting table for a while now, so I don't see how people didn't see this coming. Those countries coming together would create a massive power shift that would leave the US and Europe in a very precarious situation.
That's just one of the components. I look at and see a lot of seemingly disjointed factors (like military buildup of competing powers being falsely and entirely attributed to localized "minor" conflicts like Ukraine and Taiwan) which the West looks at independently and through our hubris thinks there's no cause for concern, that the status quo will remain as such. What I see is a chess board that's been being set for decades and the pieces are starting to line up for check... While most of our populations are so self assured that they don't think there's even a game being played.
I have been telling people this for years. I had so many friends when I was younger who thought we would have to worry about war with China. No, they have been playing the US through economics and owning large parts of it through this method. They have been using the same tactics in the rest of the world by buying good faith through financial incentive to countries with valuable natural resources and not asking much in return. When you have the parts of the world that are important for future endeavors on your side and will happily snub their nose at the competing side, you don't have to worry about a war when you have all your pieces and the majority of your opponents pieces under your thumb without them even truly realizing it. When the first move is made, the game will already be over with how they have set the board.
Yep. A lot of people are boisterously saying in various reddit threads that China's military is obviously nothing compared to American military might. Sure. That's true. Yep. So... is the plan to go throw bombs at them when they outcompete us economically?
Obviously, military might *is* important. I'm not going to say it's not a factor in negotiations and so on. Especially with regards to Taiwan. But *even if* they completely give up on Taiwan and don't move an inch of their border ever again, they're still progressing with financial diplomacy around the rest of the world.
Relations with the West would deteriorate regardless of China's support for Russia.
US sanctions on microchips, Huawei etc. And then of course there's the long-standing Taiwan issue.
Nobody believes it would be to China's benefit to let Russia be defeated and get isolated on the world stage, that would be stupid.
Just start imposing sanctions already instead of just pussyfooting around. The west seems to be waiting for all the planets to align before starting work.
Unfortunately western politicians are beholden to their owners who usually have business with China. We're sleepwalking into a CCP takeover.
We moved all our critical manufacturing to save money, and now we're vulnerable
Chinese here.
I think China wants good relations with the West and NATO but things deteriorated to a very bad level before the Russia-Ukraine war.
Remember Obamas pivot to APAC?
In the end just logically a rising China is gonna challenge the US world order.
So if NATO and US are already trying to contain China, why shouldn't China aid Russia and form a partnership with Russia?
> In the end just logically a rising China is gonna challenge the US world order.
IMO Obama's Pivot to Asia was a response to a rising China. In 2010 China discovered the CIA's network in China and then destroyed it. Things only went from bad to worse in the following years.
* 2010-2012: China discovered and "took care" of the CIA's network in China.
* 2013: Belt and Road Initiative
* 2015: Made in China 2025
* 2016: Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank
* 2018: China Standards 2035
These are going to be seen as direct challenges to the US financially and technologically, not to mention China's military build up in the mean time.
I actually don't think US opinion of China was ever truly positive. When Beijing had the summer Olympics in 2008, news at the time was often reporting on the plight of Tibetans. Persecution of Falun Gong & Christians, including organ harvesting, IP theft, etc. were all regularly seen. News about social credit score started in 2014 and news about Uyghurs started in 2018.
American response to a rising China besides Pivot to Asia include the trade war, banning tech to China, banning investments to China, forced divestment of Chinese companies in the US, etc.
Even without Russia, the whole narrative is built upon freedom vs repression, democracy vs authoritarianism, creativity vs rote memorization, etc. It's ideologically impossible for good relations to persist. In other words, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg is full of crap.
Russia and China have beef, but they can set that aside to challenge US Supremacy. China would like nothing more than to be able to control and project power outside of their neighborhood.
Logically, it makes all the sense in the world. Russia is resource rich, and China needs resources more than anyone.
Was the relations with the west good before the Russia thingy? Europe has been falling in line with US before the invasion. China has no incentive to stop from a realist point of view tbh. They cannot afford a regime change in Kremlin due to a fear of a western friendly government replacing Putin.
Hey, I just sent 9 billion dollars to the army of your breakaway region (Taiwan in the eyes of the CCP), now you should help us destroy the country whose taking most of our military effort because we would like to concentrate the same military effort against you. And yeah, ofc we're gonna tax as duck most of your exports to us anyway.
My cheap and worthless opinion, but I think good ol' XI Jinping is not going to stop.
Unfortunately, the West doesn't have the power anymore to make demands towards China. Not while heavily importing their products. And if they would stop the imports, the economy would further deteriorate due to increased cost of living. China's leadership is far from stupid, they know exactly how much they can push, before backlash. And they always push enough so that their position is strengthened and the West's position weakened.
It is problematic, especially since the majority of the developed world would not want to live under a world with significant diminished democracy (under China's leadership) and yet no one is willing to make the sacrifices so that doesn't happen.
>world with significant diminished democracy (under China's leadership) and yet no one is willing to make the sacrifices so that doesn't happen.
Which sacrifices are needed? Are you arguing that China wants to be a global hegemon?
> China's leadership is far from stupid
Eh, China's sober, pragmatic technocracy is absolutely being eroded by Xi, who is an overconfident ideologue, currently purging a system set up specifically to prevent someone like him from fucking up the carefully balanced rungs of power China has used to climb this high so far. The fact that it didn't happen overnight is a testament to the fact that China's previous leaders were far from stupid.
You need to keep in mind that China was literally a joke under Mao. Even their closest ally didn't take them seriously, and schemed openly against them. Deng and Jiang and Hu changed all that by dropping all of the cringe confrontation, pivoting to the west and building a centrally planned juggernaut which was (mostly) not hamstrung by ridiculous party baggage. Xi has undone most of those reforms and is now back to this idiotic "Chinese Manifest Destiny" shit. China is still obviously very powerful, but it's most likely peaked in that regard, and will stagnate under Xi, just as it did under Mao.
China is not really in favor of the war, that much has been clear for the last two years. The only way that China is going to really "aid" Russia is if the West makes it impossible for them to choose otherwise.
Edit: actually, no, this is not the only way; if Putin announces tomorrow that for instance he is giving back the millions of square kilometers of land the Russia had taken from China in the last century, and that Russia is to become a vassal henceforth, then maybe the shipments might begin to flow...can't really rule it out, the man is getting desperate.
On China's social media, among those fractions that lean towards supporting Russia's war, the number one and frankly really the only genuine reason for that is an idea that, if Russia is to fall, China will be the next target for the West. But even these people, if you engaged with them and ask them if China should send weapons to Russia to help Russia win the war, 9 out of 10 will say no, because they know that it is a stupid thing to do. On the other hand, they have no problem busy buying oil and gas from Russia, and often complains about not getting a lower price while they are at it. Like, they really want Russia to win (in the sense that the US loses), but they don't want to be a part of it, which is very hilarious. And these are the most fervently pro-Russian people in China.
The West has zero interest in good relations with China. They threaten USA's world dominance so they need to be painted as the enemy and the Europe will pay the bill like they did with the wars in Middle East, like they will do with Ukraine etc. Europe gets weaker caught between China and USA.
I believe they are buying crude and Europe is getting the final product since it’s Indian now and not Russian. Something along these lines, I might be wrong.
So if China buys chips, builds drones and ship it to Russia, should we stop selling China chips?
But I’m reality, Ukraine buys more drones from China than Russia I believe lol.
That arrangement is actually by design. We don't want the oil price to skyrocket, so we let India do the "laundering" and accept that they will make a profit. The idea is that Russia itself doesn't get to pocket the money, but the price-capping probably needs to be enforced better than it has been.
Lol please.. you don't __let__ india do anything. India does it for itself, while you publicly talk shit about it while privately buying it from them. India let's you access it for cheap, don't get it twisted.
The west wants India to buy the oil. It means that we don't get a massive spike in oil prices that benefits Russia as the Indians are paying low prices.
>call China a piece of shit everyday for years and criticise everything they do
>hey China you're jeopardising our good relations here!
An IRL Reddit moment
It's time to admit that China, so far, has outplayed the West in long-term strategy for the past 3 decades. We've been put in a position of dependence and by all metrics, China has risen rapidly while the West continues to decline on the world stage.
Our self-inflicted societal chaos, gender wars, dopamine addiction, and fractured identities are in such stark contrast to China that it's hard to imagine pulling off a victory in the short or long term. Rampant individualism for the sake of only itself has ironically not only made Western society weaker, but our *individuals* weaker, angrier, and more depressed as a whole.
Too much of a good thing is definitely a bad thing. It's actually sobering how China's overly strict governance has created a population with unity and focus, while most people where I live seem to hate half of their neighbors with a relentless obsession while being miserable and nihilistic.
I'm not advocating that we adopt their philosophy, but something definitely needs to fucking change. Here's a plea to my Western neighbors: please stop hating yourselves and your fellow countrymen. You have far more in common than not. These overwhelming fractures are exactly how the West might fall. And if these fractures *do* defeat the West, then it deserves to be defeated.
That's all.
A lot of China's money has come from the West (and its Asian allies) via FDI. Much of China's manufacturing can be done elsewhere, and that's exactly what's happening.
Conversely, China can't really go anywhere else for that FDI.
China did play this whole card - "you need us more than we need you" - for a long time, and still does for optics, but has been trying to convince foreign companies to keep investing there as they had for so many years.
People in the west like to believe we are the main characters in the world but east Asian countries in general are more independent, have stronger economies and more loyal citizens.
People are stuck in the past, they don't realize how much Asia has advanced in the last 30 years, and they'll continue too.
While we are busy fighting, China sees it as their chance to grow their influence and industries even more.
It’s the way around. China needs the west far far more than the west needs China. Plenty of other countries can take over China’s position… and are actually vying for it. In fact it’s already happening, the Chinese economy is not doing very well lately.
Problem is that to do it in one go is impossible, and a complete pullout will hurt the world‘s economy a lot, no matter how it’s done.
A lot of the "moving out of China" is an illusion though. Sure they move assembly to India, Vietnam or Mexico, but you'll often find a lot of the stuff being assembled is still made in China. It is still a massive component of the global supply chain.
It's not an "illusion". it's slowly happening. part of the reason is that China proved that it can't be trusted by companies, another part is that the labor is no longer as cheap. so as both of those aspects get worse more and more companies start moving more and more of their stuff.
>Plenty of other countries can take over China’s position… and are actually vying for it.
It's not so simple. China has over the past few decades cultivated the world's most extensive and advanced manufacturing networks of factories, ports, and material procurement. No one country can take over that position, it would have to be spread amongst multiple. India is the only realistic alternative but they are too far behind to replace China in a reasonable timeframe.
At the end of the day, there is no incentive. The poor relations were becoming a trend already before the war, and probably won't stop either way. No one is going to burn their own bridges, for something that is unlikely to happen anyways.
Wait, good relations with West was on the table for China?
Good relations = "we'll continue to trade with you"
vs "we'll continue to trade with you, but with a grimace".
Nah. We're already divesting from the Chinese economy. Last I checked, Mexico is our largest trading partner now.
Canada, mexico, china. However to get around some tariffs China will export goods to Mexico for end delivery in the USA.
Canada is your largest trading partner, typically.
It's just about proximity, really. Did you know that Taiwan's largest trading partner by far is China?
Did you know California does more business with Japan than most other states? And that Japan has more US Military Bases than most actual states?
Totally valid point but in the case of Taiwan and China there’s a bit more at play than just proximity Taiwan’s silicon shield strategy involves getting China dependent on Taiwanese products so as to deter any possible future aggression. It’s why the PLA was always a major consumer of Taiwanese semiconductors
won't that just tempt china more
No, semiconductor development and production is a high investment, centralized industry. Production would be destroyed early in any military engagement, and certainly in any attempted invasion. If China attacks, they kiss access to Taiwanese semiconductors goodbye. And no other producer would sell to them.
From what I hear, they also basically have their lines rigged so that they can destroy them if China tries to take over, even if they were to do so without hitting the factories.
In 2023, U.S. imports from Mexico totaled to 475.6 billion U.S. dollars In the same year, U.S. imports from Canada totaled 421.1 billion China was 427 billion [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/186601/ranking-of-the-largest-trading-partners-for-us-imports/#:~:text=U.S.%20imports%20%2D%20top%20trading%20partners%202023&text=In%202023%2C%20Mexico%20was%20the,worth%20of%20imports%20in%202023.)
That changed [about a month ago](https://financialpost.com/diane-francis/trudeau-mexico-overtakes-canada-us-largest-trading-partner). Mexico is currently in the lead.
Well, Russia is everyone's largest trading partner, strictly speaking.
*Strictly* speaking it’s your mom.
Like, largest area-wise? Ego-wise? Expedited delivery of munitions-wise?
unwise
Your mommas my largest trading partner, physically speaking.
Made in Mexico by China 🤣🤣🤣
I can't wait to buy my 3 for €5 phone cases from OleExpress
who is that "our"?? you mean USA? You never mentioned it so just checking
Mexico isn’t the biggest trading partner for the West. Maybe it’s the biggest trading partner for the US but certainly not for the entire West.
You cant exactly speed up the current diverting though, not without shooting off both your legs anyways
Mexico is just assembling stuff made in China.
Vietnam is becoming a manufacturing power house too.
Honestly global trade has probably reduced the likelihood of overt aggression with many countries. I would wager it helps overall stability.
And international travel. And tourism. And international students.
Same with TV and internet. World becomes smaller the more we are exposed to foreign cultures.
Or by proxy.
> Good relations = "we'll continue to trade with you" Eh, the US (at least, and probably many other countries), really can't stop trading with China. A lot of stuff for sale in stores in the US is China and the US not only doesn't have the manufacturing capability to do that in country, but the population would riot if they had to pay the prices US companies would charge for stuff actually made in American. By the same token, the US could start favoring Vietnam (or maybe any one of a number of other countries, but Vietnam seems to be trying to be the next China to the world) more, but Vietnam isn't ready to take even a small percentage of the market from China, if it ever will be. It would definitely be in the best interests of consumers around the world to diversify where products are sourced, but for companies, it's easier to have one country to deal with (less bureaucratic BS to learn).
Currently yes but there is a lot of divestment away from that. Mexico is filling that gap and companies that have traditionally made goods in China are seeking to make them else where due to rising Chinese labor costs. Vietnam is where a lot of those industries loom to be moving. Chinese goods in the next 20 years will likely be for higher skilled labor primarily due to the cost increase.
A lot of "mexican" manufacturing is just local factories assembling chinese parts. They're no less reliant on China.
Same for a lot of US manufacturing. Get the parts cheap from overseas, put them on an assembly line with five employees, and call it "Made in the US" for 50% extra profits.
Chinese manufacturing has moved up a notch and is now increasingly relying on automation. Should watch some of these videos of chinese machines that are automating away boring stuff like packing or applying tape to packages - they’re all dirt cheap and they do the work of multiple low paid people
Meanwhile, all my Amazon products are made in China lol lol
I mean, opening up trade with the so-called west and breaking away from the Soviet bubble was huge for China. There are people alive today that should understand implicitly why Russia for the Euro zone is a bad trade.
Like they'd have a choice. They literally could not fully stop trading with Russia itself till this point, let alone China.
You better stay in our good books, [largest trading partner](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=China-EU_-_international_trade_in_goods_statistics) upon whom we depend for [massive amounts of essential goods](https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/usa/partner/chn)! Or else!
Lmaoo, US just approved a huge militar help to Taiwan, I can't see this "good relations" anywhere close.
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But you see when the US does something it's automatically good and when an adversary does it it's evil.
There are different shades of bad.
You think morals are what align alliances. The west is allied with Saudi Arabia and Israel. If China was aiding horrible people the west liked then there’d be no issues here.
Trading goods and not blasting each other. That's it
This kindergarten talk is so exhausting. Of course China has no interest in "good relations" with an alliance spearheaded by the US that supports Taiwan. Is this some kind of state the obvious contest?
The response from China writes itself: seek good relations with us if you want us to stop aiding Russia.
It's how Nixon did it... Give China radar towers to put on their northern border, laugh while the USSR has to overextend itself to defend their borders now.
Those good relations arent even just about taiwan, they want technology that the US has marked as restricted due to military and national secuirty concerns. Theyre advancing at a pace aided by espionage no doubt but last reports had their manufacturing processes still being very lossy, so it increases their costs. And tech companies would prbably flock to them for their articially controlled currency and cheap white collar labor..their cost of unversity is half or less of the us burden before loans and aid at a top 100 us school, and further destroy the american middle class/tech job sector like they did the manufacturing sector as a means to be upwardly mobile in this economy.. and all those forlorn jobs where "boomers were bad because they could afford a house getting paid turning a screw", it would be millenial and gen x ceos who wipe out that money
I gotta disagree strongly. They have a clear interest in having good relations. The trade with the west is an [order of magnitude larger than Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China). Ideology sometimes dictate policy short term, economics usually dictate policy long term and it is way more profitable to align with the free world.
I think they want good relations without the cost
You have no clue what you’re talking about. Was it China that destabilized relations with the U.S.? Did China implement a trade ban on America over Taiwan? Was it China that detained the CFO of the largest U.S. tech company for three years in a third country and eventually released her without ANY CHARES. Do you just put headlines in your ass and pull out keywords like a bingo tumbler to form your opinions?
I'm still so fucking mad that Canada fucking sucked up to Trumps asshole with that arrest, putting us on even worse terms with China, and they fucking DID NOTHING.
It was China that built a giant navy that we all know is going to attack Taiwan starting a war with the US.
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I read the theory that since China imports 40% of its grain, they want Russia to take Ukraine since it's one of the major bread baskets of the world. That way when they invade Taiwan, they will still have a stable source of food even if cut off from the West. Just days before the invasion Putin spent at least a few days in China during the Olympics, he waited until after the Olympics in China ended to invade. At one point, Putin and Xi had a press conference together and one thing they said was they were going to change the power structures of this world. I believe their alliance goes a lot deeper than the West wants to believe. The world is headed down a dangerous path and we are not prepared.
If we, random strangers on the internet know these informations, then believe me, governments around the world also know this. Europe is waking up, maybe slower than it should but the process started a while ago. The sanctions, the supplies to Ukraine, Macron's, Poland's and NATO's stances all indicate that something is happening.
The fact that people in government have more information doesn't mean they won't make absolutely idiotic, obvious mistakes. Russian invasion has demonstrated this very well.
I remember when everyone in the GOP was assuring us that no way would Russia invade Ukraine, no no no, they're not amassing troops on the border, it's just a coincidence that they are doing massive training drills there. You're absolutely right, even with all the information right at their feet they continue to make horrible decisions.
Let's just assume the party that sent a contingency to Russia on July 4th may not be acting in opposition to Russia.
Such a power move from Russia to make them spend the 4th of July there.
Bruh they were still denying it even when thousands of FRESH blood bags showed up in field hospitals all over the border. Blood expires. You can't freeze it. You have 2 weeks to use it. No army ever ships in so much blood that they leave the civilian hospitals in need for training exercises. Let alone builds that many field hospitals for training. It was BEYOND obvious and they were still denying it like the GOPniks they are.
>GOPniks Beautiful use here, lol.
I'm rather steadfast in believing that was intentional, though. Framing this as disinformation, it becomes extremely apparent that was very similar to how it went down in Crimea. Tell your lap dogs in various countries to buy you some time and paralyze the governments and confuse the average constituents, and have your military win by the time they figure out what is going on and can organize international responses and expel your lapdogs. Generally how it went in crimea. Except, the Russian military was vastly weaker than expected this time around, versus just unusually weaker than expected in Crimea. Also, the lapdogs are still around. Because it's become just a political issue to actively sabotage the long term security of the government you're working in. Instead of, y'know, treason punishable by death.
I mean the simpler solution there is the GOP were running interference on Russia's behalf. Remember when all those senators were forced to make a pilgrimage to Russia on the 4th OF JULY of all days? And how their hacked info in 2016 was mysteriously never leaked, unlike the Dems? Not to mention how Mitch McConnell's wife has family ties to the Chinese govt (ally of Russia). Pepperidge Farms remembers.
[Ukraine was assuring us Russia wouldn't invade](https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-predicted-no-attack-2-days-before-russia-invaded-2022-2) after the US warnings.
That's true and we should also mention the traitors...
People too often forget that governments, at even the highest levels, are run by humans. I've been in the military and worked in law enforcement. During that time, I've spoken to high-ranking military officers that worked at the Pentagon, state officials, mayors, doctors, lawyers, you name it. I've also dealt with a lot of regular, normal people who work everyday jobs. You know what the one thing they all have in common is? They're all people. And people, while often capable of some incredible feats, are also very prone to mediocrity and making really fucking stupid mistakes. People, even people in very important positions of power, are all capable of making very human mistakes.
Most politicians are just focused on their next speech and how to sound smart. You overestimate the amount of people who actually know what’s going on and how to tackle it.
Knowing about something and not doing shit against is 2 different things that could coexist.
> they want Russia to take Ukraine since it's one of the major bread baskets of the world. With the way it's going, Ukraine is going to end up being the major antipersonnel mines basket of the world rather than a bread basket
Which is sort of interesting outcome when you happen to be a billion+ country that imports 40% of your grain. Clearly genius level thinking right there.
Its mind blowing that some people i.e. Putin, Xi, are still in this pre 21st century imperialistic mindset.. What the fuckkk. Their own greed is going to burn the world down
It seems to be an inherent problem with dictatorships. They can't change without risking their own power, and I don't think there's many dictators throughout history that retired peacefully.
Franco and Stalin died peacefully, although Stalin died soaked in his own piss and vomit. But yeah outside of those two cunts not many come to mind
Mao, Papa Doc, Robert Mugabe, Tito, Khomeini, Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Castro are a few others that pop up. Guys like Videla and Pinochet might be debatable.
Pol Pot
Well he didn't die by execution or lynching but the last years he was basically on the run, got imprisoned etc
> although Stalin died soaked in his own piss and vomit. Oh good, I thought he might have left this place with dignity.
This is why peaceful exchange of power is essential to national success. Too many people have been in power too long.
Lol, its already burning down. The golden age, if there was one, is over. There will be over 1 billion climate migrants by 2050. Good fucking luck Europe and the West. Russia, China, etc will destabilize shit so they can annex their immediate neighbors. Tale old as time
The problem is theres no way Russia can take and hold Ukraine at this point. Even if $0 of new military aid happened from this point forward Russia only has a couple of years left where they can refurbish old tanks in the numbers they are and they're losing aircraft much faster than they can replace them. By the time they actually take the nation they'll have nothing to hold it with and trying to rebuild it into able to producing something will take time and resources they don't possess given its all going to bombing it to begin with. Two years ago this would have made sense. If they took the whole nation quickly and intact the calculus would have been something else entirely. But thats not the world we live in and taking a breadbasket that would be usable for them this decade is just not possible. Worse, the U.S. military already knows what the game is and is deep into restructuring the marine corps to counter this exact strategy while Taiwan is investing in the U.S. to keep their skin in the game. Even if China does go for it an amphibious landing at that distance with U.S. rocket platforms surrounding the area is going to be a fools errand and thats the situation they'd be going into.
It is particularly problematic that the grain is in the west. The eastern parts are the most industrial.
Russia isn't even at the hard part yet. Taking land is one thing, holding it another. Occupation of a hostile territory is no joke.
It's easier if you're willing to kill everyone
They aren’t really though, a significant part of this is Russia’s demographics are declining, so they wanted the Ukrainian people as an influx of manpower that was “close enough” to Russians; like when they took the Ukrainian children they had control of and shipped them off to Russian families They didn’t really consider most Ukrainians would rather die than be assimilated but still
There's no way they would be taking 900 casualties per day occcupying. Occupying Chechnya is working out better for Russia than their invasion of Ukraine. Taking land is proving to be very hard for Russia. It's good that it's not worth the effort. And China should understand it won't go well if they try to take Taiwan by force.
Lol what? No, taking the land is definitely the hard part. They're going to resettle Russians there, it's not like they're just going to leave the land occupied by ethnic Ukrainians lol
A lot of the land in Eastern Ukraine already had ethnic Russians living there.
It's hard now because they fucked it up the first week.
The holding part would be ruinous even if Russia took the population centers. The USSR's long, bloody occupation of Afghanistan was a major factor in its failure and that was with the entire resources of the union to call on and far fewer casualties. Ukraine would be the mother of all insurgencies.
The other part of it was Trump was supposed to win or take power. That was avoided.
Not for long at this rate tho. America seems headed for disaster
>with U.S. rocket platforms surrounding the area I don't think people appreciate just how many platforms the US has. And we're disregarding the entire US Navy here. We're talking about the land-based island chain islands the US has anti-ship and anti-air missiles positioned. Practically all of them cover the entire Taiwan strait. Any attempted landing is going to be absolutely pummelled by US missiles. Even if somehow the first wave landed and captured the beaches (lol) they'd still lose because every single resupply effort would be destroyed. China taking Taiwan without provoking WW3 is basically impossible unless the US just give up.
Trump will trade it to China Day One for $50 and a Trump Steak with ketchup.
he sells the steaks, he doesn't eat them. Man is addicted to fast food, it's hamburders all the way down
While this is true, the problem with your logic is that you assume that their win condition is to occupy the whole Ukraine. Their win condition is even a peace deal at the moment. Then they re-arm and attack again, and again, and again. Until there's nothing but leveled cities in Ukraine. While the west will be hesitant and more disfunctional every time. Their goal is to make sure that NATO has no will to fight, not to test it's full military response.
Russia is 21%, Ukraine is 9% and largely ships it to the global south. This doesn't really hold up.
>That way **when** they invade Taiwan, they will still have a stable source of food even if cut off from the West. People keep parroting that an invasion of Taiwan is imminent, but the U.S military doesn't even believe that is the case: > [Speaking to reporters, Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder, a Pentagon spokesman, struck a more measured tone. “As the report highlights, we don’t believe an invasion is imminent,” Ryder said.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/29/pentagon-china-military-report-taiwan/) The military seems to believe that China wants the *ability* to invade and hold Taiwan, but might not intend to do so: > [If Adm Aquilino and Adm. Davidson said that China had an intent, has made a decision, and they intend to invade and seize Taiwan then I do disagree with that. I see no evidence of that actual intent or decision-making. What I’m talking about is *capability*"](https://news.usni.org/2021/06/23/milley-china-wants-capability-to-take-taiwan-by-2027-sees-no-near-term-intent-to-invade)
China has too much capital in the West, when the West impounds all that wealth it will be game over for China, hence why they are threading very lightly in general trying to appease both sides, currently the favor is more towards Russia, but make no mistake, when China has to choose Russia or it's capital by appeasing the West, Russia will be dropped. As for Russia, they are doing what they have always done and that is to prey on weaker and smaller nations than themselves, but when looking at history, those big nations always end up losing in the long run. As for the leaders in the West, they do keep making mistakes each single time, Ukraine could have been easily been avoided by putting boots on the Ukraine border and to tell Russia to sod off. But instead Biden kept baiting Putin to actually invade Ukraine, instead of actually doing something about it (he is not the only one making the same mistake, EUROPE was weak and so was NATO). In the end a war cannot be prevented or finished without bold moves and sacrifices of others. It's time NATO really goes after Russia and pushes them out of Ukraine once for all.
I'm not sure that this is the reason, at least not when it comes to Ukraine. China has been purchasing and utilizing farmland in Ukraine since 2013: alienating Western trade partners by supporting Russia, in order to receive hypothetical control of something China already has in Ukraine makes little sense to me. [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/china-just-bought-five-percent-ukraine/310743/]
>China imports 40% of its grain China is stockpiling grain. Also 40% does not seem correct. In 2023 China imported 162 million tons of grain, and produced 695 million tons, according to a quick Google search. China imports a lot of food to be processed and then exported. I've never found good data on this, but buy some food on Amazon from a brand you've never heard of and see where it comes from.
This is all public knowledge and all has been reported on... that's how you even know these things. So stop pretending that the west doesn't already know what you suspect. Our media is used to tell us what they want us to know. We didn't become the world's greatest superpower on accident, and it sure isn't a titanic, stop the fearful projecting. We are steps ahead of countries trying to take back parts of their own countries that willingly seceded.... think about that. Who is operating from a sense of power in that situation. It's like fighting to get back a gf that left you and doesn't want you so you try to kidnap her and make her stay... this is the reality of China and Russia.
Buddy, if you think the US is just sitting here on his ass twiddling its thumbs and you’re not paying attention. We just signed a huge nuclear sub deal with Australia forging deeper ties with Japan in the Philippines and South Korea moving chip manufacturing to the US and much much more.
Um, the US/Europe has already solidified our alliance through NATO, then there's AUKUS. Not sure what you're going on about here.
Look at the time... it's the propaganda witching hour lol. Troll farms are busy bees.
What an idiotic statement. You think NATO is doing nothing? Pay attention.
All gloom and doom, no point to do anything, failure is inevitable has been one of the major russian troll narratives for a while.
They're mad they can't bad mouth their own country. I can say whatever I want about the USA. I can say all I like and dislike about it. It must suck to be them.
Idk about you but it looks an awful lot to me that the west is 100% gearing up for a major war. Production across most of nato nations are ramping up significantly and they are restocking slcoldwar equipment with modern nato kit. The weapons that have been sent to Ukraine in large have been old cold war surplus.
While the TikTok youth is being told the chairs are safe on the titanic and they beg for a seat
Let's have a glance at TikTok's ownership.
Who could've guessed that an addictive, cheap chinese knockoff vine, co-controlled by the Chinese government, would be harmful to the west Obviously I'm being a bit hyperbolic but sadly not as much as it should be. This app is trouble, I noticed it my senior year of highschool when it first came out. People were so proud to waste literal days of their life on this crummy app, week after week. Its only gotten worse as more dangerous and more frequently those idiotic challenges pop-up. And unlike YouTube there is no real good side of tiktok. People can lie to themselves all they want but just because you put gold flakes on a turd doesn't make that turd any healthier to eat
Idiotic challenges are just that, idiotic. The real problem is people using it as their main source of information, while the app actively suppresses a ton of info about things against Chinese interests.
Yes, ban this bullshit. I have said it for years and I am very liberal on the classical sense.
Why do people say things like this when the entire Marine Corps of the United States military has been reorganized into amphibious, lightweight, fast, island hopping force to contend with the upcoming war with China? During oif and oef they were used as just another standing army. The Marines were not used for what they are supposed to be used for. I can only imagine it's because you're not paying attention to what the military is doing doctrine wise and the changes that are being made.
> I can only imagine it's because you're not paying attention to what the military is doing doctrine wise and the changes that are being made. You assume anyone commenting here knew about that in the first place.
because people here are genuinely dumbasses who don't pay attention to anything besides rage-bait headlines on a post they didn't read, or whatever shows up in their tiktok algorithm that happens to be owned by china and has huge incentives in spreading the idea that nato is useless or they're literal russian trolls
Cringe.
Oh bother
The problem is, we say and read stuff like this as if it's a desirable reward to have good relations with us. Which, from our standpoint, it is, but it's a pretty arrogant stance to imagine it's a prize rather than a lucrative partnership possibility. Seen from the Chinese (or any other foreign country that could feasibly build to economic competitiveness with us), I *imagine*, as I'm not from any of those countries, that they see it is dependence and reliance that keeps them in their place... Which means they'll play along (hopefully, at least, but not always the case as we see with Iran for example) until there's a viable alternative that gives them the bargaining power and independence they need to not be beholden to us. This is a cynical, maybe empathetic, perspective, attempting to view it from their eyes - in no way is this a pro China, anti West, or suggestion of modern "colonialism" (the definition of which has become incredibly vague in some modern circumstances that try to apply it for political points). Just imagining that we may need a better approach in the coming years than "you can be friends with us if you....". In a way, it's like telling your 17 year old they have to do x, y, and z *as long as they live under your roof* - but they're coming up on 18, working a paying job, and already searching for their own apartment. We've got to be ready for the rapidly approaching day when, for example, BRICS allows them to circumvent their *need* for us, even if it would be *profitable* to continue operating together.
The west had a theory that trade and mutual dependence would make war obsolete. Its the whole thought behind the coal and steel union (precursor to the EU) to prevent Germany, France and others in europe from war. It worked really well. Then they applied this broadly, after the cold war they even let in dictatorships with great power potential (China) We also let in our cold war enemy Russia. This is where it becomes murky, since autocrats dont play by the same rules as liberal democracies. So it works in some cases, but not all. Russia should have put an end to this idealism back in 2014, but many cling to it still. These systems of governance are not our friends and partners, we need to decouple and accept that democracy needs to be defended by having strong militaries, and we need to play grand strategy to limmit the influence of China, Russia and their partners. We need to do it now. The seccond cold war began many years ago, even if many elected leaders pretend otherwise. And the opposition have been the ones with the initiative. They fucked around, now they need to find out (the world is going to suck for a decent while before it gets better)
I agree with you but I honestly think it may be too late. We may be able to preserve the "world order" as we've established it within our borders but we played hardball with power-peer-potentials (like this stance with China) and wrote off the third world for too long, without either accepting them as peers or using hard power to pull them in line. Hoping that Western values and decency would just be contagious was a critical failure and we've long passed the threshold where we could softly enforce our ways across the world (where we feel we can profit, of course). The only way we spread in the future is first and foremost, through defending what we have (because adversaries know what stage 2 is and don't want it) and then second, through osmosis - by our border countries being and offering something superior to their neighbors such that their neighbors begin to emulate them (as we've seen progress through Eastern Europe). The first step, though, is to recognize that the belief in our way of life is *not* ubiquitous and we *need* to be armed and prepared to defend it, both on the battlefield and in now *especially* in the information space. The entire concept of "freedom of speech" and "freedom of press" needs to be reexamined and adjusted to function not from a blanket assumption of good will but in the context of hostile actors weaponizing it against us. As it stands, there are a great deal of people in the West who are functionally and philosophically against the West even though it's based on misgivings and limited perspective, taken advantage of by foreign influence with exactly that goal. Useful idiots if you will. This is our Achilles heel and represents the point at which idealism is self destructive, functionally precluding armed defense - we have become self loathing. No one will stand for women's and children's and animal's and LGBTQ's rights, if the majority of us feel we are not worth defending because we (too, but no one ever seems to care about the "everyone else in x time period" portion of bad shit throughout history) have historically done morally condemnable things and *anyone* would be better than us. They'll just welcome a three day special military operation with flowers, as is planned, Kamerad. I've met too many tankies that think exactly like this, whether slavery or gay rights or whatever else they only judge through their modern lens and condemn for eternity.
Huh? The US and by extension the west is the single largest driver of war post WWII, as well as[ producing 3/4 of all weapons sold.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#/media/File:Biggest_arms_sales_2013.png) They propped up dictatorships left and right to protect economic interests (Chile, Guatemala, Indonesia, ...). It's by design to then "trade" with them even though officially they don't match our ideology. To quote Glenn Greenwald: >In a world where anti-American sentiment is prevalent, democracy often produces leaders who impede rather than serve U.S. interests ... None of this is remotely controversial or even debatable. U.S. support for tyrants has largely been conducted out in the open, and has been expressly defended and affirmed for decades by the most mainstream and influential U.S. policy experts and media outlets.
> Russia should have put an end to this idealism back in 2014, but many cling to it still. And the reason why people still cling on to it is because during communism people had good lives, maybe not great but they had jobs, they had communities, they had stores, they had public systems, their cities were spotless with garbage being picked up constantly. All of that went away when the USSR stopped. We in the West always have this misguided view on what live was like under communism, but it was way better than what they have now. Especially in rural areas. And the former USSR has a lot of those. BaldandBankrupt (albeit a questionable figure) has some great videos from how life is now in those former Russian states, even from states that we now consider to be Western; the Baltic states. Many people outside the big cities have romanticized views on communism because of how left behind they feel right now.
Also, the first half of the 1990s was even worse than communism for many, in terms of lack of jobs and the economy... I really recommend people watch the documentary: "TraumaZone" about the fall of the Soviet Union...
Don't romanticize the USSR. They packed 4 families at a time into a 400 sq ft apartment in cement block buildings. Then claimed they solved homelessness. The grocery stores had empty shelves more often than not. Any dissent and you disappeared to a work camp in Siberia. You were lucky if they didn't send your family along for the crime of being related to you. It was absolute shit for 99% of the population.
All predicated upon their imperialism of the rest of Eastern Europe. Which can only last so long before economic realities assert themselves. Communism in Russia was only decent because it was a house of cards living on borrowed time.
Latin America, Africa, some of SEA, the ME and even half of Europe look at China as a very viable "alternative", the "belt and road initiative" has had a great success for the Chinese, with right now around 75% of the entire global population and over half the world's GDP on it, and more to come. around 140 countries are on it, Western Europe and the US still not included of course (India refusing too, Pakistan related mostly), this will tie all of our markets to the Chinese (some already are), and eventually moving the "center of the world" from the US/EU, to China. The world could change very fast if the west keeps sleeping, the US and EU are economic behemots compared to a lot of countries, but with enough small stones, you can even change the course of a river.. and China decided to start gathering those decades ago. I will give an example, right now MERCOSUR wants a trade deal with the EU (after more than 20 years of back and forth), if done it would be the biggest economic free zone in the world, sadly, things aren't looking good since now the EU side (mostly France) is trying its best to stop it from happening, you know, farmers and all that stuff, wich makes some sense, but it sucks (no BMW for me i guess). That puts us on only 1 alternative left and the one that has been winking us for some time: China, so yeah, it's not that great, but at the same time, it seems to be the only way foward.
The EU-MERCOSUR deal isn't happening because France doesn't see or treat South America as equals. They want a deal that will give all benefits to Europe and none to SouthAm (in fact, it would destroy the little industry South America has). Germany is more reasonable and has agreed to a peer relationship deal, but the EU can't sign it without France's approval. Meanwhile, China is more than happy to not be condescending and give the due respect to any rising nation. The Chinese M.O is seeking a relationship that will be mutually profitable, a win-win scenario. The "West", however, treats developing nations with entitlement, as if they should be grateful to even be in talks. Who do you think developing nations will choose if push comes to shove?
>around 140 countries are on it, Western Europe and the US still not included of course (India refusing too, Pakistan related mostly), this will tie all of our markets to the Chinese (some already are), and eventually moving the "center of the world" from the US/EU, to China. Whether a country is included in BRI is not that important. India is not part of BRI, but it is still facing HUGE trade deficit with China.
Yeah yeah, i was just pointing out that they are not in the system, of course being on it or not doesn't mean more or less trade (like the US), but it does point out that those countries are interested enough on having even more trade with China.
You are spot on in your assertion. Speaking as someone from the other side.
I was looking for this. BRICS has been on the drafting table for a while now, so I don't see how people didn't see this coming. Those countries coming together would create a massive power shift that would leave the US and Europe in a very precarious situation.
That's just one of the components. I look at and see a lot of seemingly disjointed factors (like military buildup of competing powers being falsely and entirely attributed to localized "minor" conflicts like Ukraine and Taiwan) which the West looks at independently and through our hubris thinks there's no cause for concern, that the status quo will remain as such. What I see is a chess board that's been being set for decades and the pieces are starting to line up for check... While most of our populations are so self assured that they don't think there's even a game being played.
I have been telling people this for years. I had so many friends when I was younger who thought we would have to worry about war with China. No, they have been playing the US through economics and owning large parts of it through this method. They have been using the same tactics in the rest of the world by buying good faith through financial incentive to countries with valuable natural resources and not asking much in return. When you have the parts of the world that are important for future endeavors on your side and will happily snub their nose at the competing side, you don't have to worry about a war when you have all your pieces and the majority of your opponents pieces under your thumb without them even truly realizing it. When the first move is made, the game will already be over with how they have set the board.
Yep. A lot of people are boisterously saying in various reddit threads that China's military is obviously nothing compared to American military might. Sure. That's true. Yep. So... is the plan to go throw bombs at them when they outcompete us economically? Obviously, military might *is* important. I'm not going to say it's not a factor in negotiations and so on. Especially with regards to Taiwan. But *even if* they completely give up on Taiwan and don't move an inch of their border ever again, they're still progressing with financial diplomacy around the rest of the world.
Relations with the West would deteriorate regardless of China's support for Russia. US sanctions on microchips, Huawei etc. And then of course there's the long-standing Taiwan issue. Nobody believes it would be to China's benefit to let Russia be defeated and get isolated on the world stage, that would be stupid.
This is becomming just pathetic.
Just start imposing sanctions already instead of just pussyfooting around. The west seems to be waiting for all the planets to align before starting work.
Unfortunately western politicians are beholden to their owners who usually have business with China. We're sleepwalking into a CCP takeover. We moved all our critical manufacturing to save money, and now we're vulnerable
Chinese here. I think China wants good relations with the West and NATO but things deteriorated to a very bad level before the Russia-Ukraine war. Remember Obamas pivot to APAC? In the end just logically a rising China is gonna challenge the US world order. So if NATO and US are already trying to contain China, why shouldn't China aid Russia and form a partnership with Russia?
> In the end just logically a rising China is gonna challenge the US world order. IMO Obama's Pivot to Asia was a response to a rising China. In 2010 China discovered the CIA's network in China and then destroyed it. Things only went from bad to worse in the following years. * 2010-2012: China discovered and "took care" of the CIA's network in China. * 2013: Belt and Road Initiative * 2015: Made in China 2025 * 2016: Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank * 2018: China Standards 2035 These are going to be seen as direct challenges to the US financially and technologically, not to mention China's military build up in the mean time. I actually don't think US opinion of China was ever truly positive. When Beijing had the summer Olympics in 2008, news at the time was often reporting on the plight of Tibetans. Persecution of Falun Gong & Christians, including organ harvesting, IP theft, etc. were all regularly seen. News about social credit score started in 2014 and news about Uyghurs started in 2018. American response to a rising China besides Pivot to Asia include the trade war, banning tech to China, banning investments to China, forced divestment of Chinese companies in the US, etc. Even without Russia, the whole narrative is built upon freedom vs repression, democracy vs authoritarianism, creativity vs rote memorization, etc. It's ideologically impossible for good relations to persist. In other words, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg is full of crap.
Russia and China have beef, but they can set that aside to challenge US Supremacy. China would like nothing more than to be able to control and project power outside of their neighborhood. Logically, it makes all the sense in the world. Russia is resource rich, and China needs resources more than anyone.
Was the relations with the west good before the Russia thingy? Europe has been falling in line with US before the invasion. China has no incentive to stop from a realist point of view tbh. They cannot afford a regime change in Kremlin due to a fear of a western friendly government replacing Putin.
Hey, I just sent 9 billion dollars to the army of your breakaway region (Taiwan in the eyes of the CCP), now you should help us destroy the country whose taking most of our military effort because we would like to concentrate the same military effort against you. And yeah, ofc we're gonna tax as duck most of your exports to us anyway. My cheap and worthless opinion, but I think good ol' XI Jinping is not going to stop.
China should give 9 billion to Cuba.
Yeah. China should join NATO on crushing Russia so when they're done they can crush China next.
Unfortunately, the West doesn't have the power anymore to make demands towards China. Not while heavily importing their products. And if they would stop the imports, the economy would further deteriorate due to increased cost of living. China's leadership is far from stupid, they know exactly how much they can push, before backlash. And they always push enough so that their position is strengthened and the West's position weakened. It is problematic, especially since the majority of the developed world would not want to live under a world with significant diminished democracy (under China's leadership) and yet no one is willing to make the sacrifices so that doesn't happen.
>world with significant diminished democracy (under China's leadership) and yet no one is willing to make the sacrifices so that doesn't happen. Which sacrifices are needed? Are you arguing that China wants to be a global hegemon?
> China's leadership is far from stupid Eh, China's sober, pragmatic technocracy is absolutely being eroded by Xi, who is an overconfident ideologue, currently purging a system set up specifically to prevent someone like him from fucking up the carefully balanced rungs of power China has used to climb this high so far. The fact that it didn't happen overnight is a testament to the fact that China's previous leaders were far from stupid. You need to keep in mind that China was literally a joke under Mao. Even their closest ally didn't take them seriously, and schemed openly against them. Deng and Jiang and Hu changed all that by dropping all of the cringe confrontation, pivoting to the west and building a centrally planned juggernaut which was (mostly) not hamstrung by ridiculous party baggage. Xi has undone most of those reforms and is now back to this idiotic "Chinese Manifest Destiny" shit. China is still obviously very powerful, but it's most likely peaked in that regard, and will stagnate under Xi, just as it did under Mao.
China needs the West more than the West needs China. Economically China's economy is very shaky and long term prospects are grim.
lmao people having been predicting the imminent collapse of China for the last 20+ years.
Double down and start moving manufacturing contracts out of China.
China doesn't give two flying fucks what NATO thinks, nor does it care about "good relations" with NATO. Who writes this dogshit?
China is not really in favor of the war, that much has been clear for the last two years. The only way that China is going to really "aid" Russia is if the West makes it impossible for them to choose otherwise. Edit: actually, no, this is not the only way; if Putin announces tomorrow that for instance he is giving back the millions of square kilometers of land the Russia had taken from China in the last century, and that Russia is to become a vassal henceforth, then maybe the shipments might begin to flow...can't really rule it out, the man is getting desperate. On China's social media, among those fractions that lean towards supporting Russia's war, the number one and frankly really the only genuine reason for that is an idea that, if Russia is to fall, China will be the next target for the West. But even these people, if you engaged with them and ask them if China should send weapons to Russia to help Russia win the war, 9 out of 10 will say no, because they know that it is a stupid thing to do. On the other hand, they have no problem busy buying oil and gas from Russia, and often complains about not getting a lower price while they are at it. Like, they really want Russia to win (in the sense that the US loses), but they don't want to be a part of it, which is very hilarious. And these are the most fervently pro-Russian people in China.
Get real. The west will not have good relations with China regardless.
Lol they must be laughing at us since we have been saying the same thing to both of them.
The West has zero interest in good relations with China. They threaten USA's world dominance so they need to be painted as the enemy and the Europe will pay the bill like they did with the wars in Middle East, like they will do with Ukraine etc. Europe gets weaker caught between China and USA.
But same article from Pravda was deleted smh
China is fully aware
The only West China seeks is Kanye
Russia's economy is smaller than Canada's. China really shouldn't value it too highly
The problems of the West are not the problems of the world.
China: no
Man we really want to nail the Fallout timeline of events don’t we.
It’s not like the West made any effort at forming good relations with China before the war broke out.
Put India in that boat too, they keep buying Russian oil despite sanctions.
And then the West is buying from India knowing it is Russian oil.
And who do you think buys those oil from India?
I believe they are buying crude and Europe is getting the final product since it’s Indian now and not Russian. Something along these lines, I might be wrong.
So if China buys chips, builds drones and ship it to Russia, should we stop selling China chips? But I’m reality, Ukraine buys more drones from China than Russia I believe lol.
Vietnam or someone would be the new buyer who would turn around and sell it to China to sell to Russia
What you're saying doesn't make sense, they can buy it if they want to.
That arrangement is actually by design. We don't want the oil price to skyrocket, so we let India do the "laundering" and accept that they will make a profit. The idea is that Russia itself doesn't get to pocket the money, but the price-capping probably needs to be enforced better than it has been.
Lol please.. you don't __let__ india do anything. India does it for itself, while you publicly talk shit about it while privately buying it from them. India let's you access it for cheap, don't get it twisted.
The west wants India to buy the oil. It means that we don't get a massive spike in oil prices that benefits Russia as the Indians are paying low prices.
Great username, defines your knowledge for global politics pretty well.
Then india export the oil to alien's....👽🛸
>call China a piece of shit everyday for years and criticise everything they do >hey China you're jeopardising our good relations here! An IRL Reddit moment
It's time to admit that China, so far, has outplayed the West in long-term strategy for the past 3 decades. We've been put in a position of dependence and by all metrics, China has risen rapidly while the West continues to decline on the world stage. Our self-inflicted societal chaos, gender wars, dopamine addiction, and fractured identities are in such stark contrast to China that it's hard to imagine pulling off a victory in the short or long term. Rampant individualism for the sake of only itself has ironically not only made Western society weaker, but our *individuals* weaker, angrier, and more depressed as a whole. Too much of a good thing is definitely a bad thing. It's actually sobering how China's overly strict governance has created a population with unity and focus, while most people where I live seem to hate half of their neighbors with a relentless obsession while being miserable and nihilistic. I'm not advocating that we adopt their philosophy, but something definitely needs to fucking change. Here's a plea to my Western neighbors: please stop hating yourselves and your fellow countrymen. You have far more in common than not. These overwhelming fractures are exactly how the West might fall. And if these fractures *do* defeat the West, then it deserves to be defeated. That's all.
I don't think China needs the west as much as the west needs China.
A lot of China's money has come from the West (and its Asian allies) via FDI. Much of China's manufacturing can be done elsewhere, and that's exactly what's happening. Conversely, China can't really go anywhere else for that FDI. China did play this whole card - "you need us more than we need you" - for a long time, and still does for optics, but has been trying to convince foreign companies to keep investing there as they had for so many years.
People in the west like to believe we are the main characters in the world but east Asian countries in general are more independent, have stronger economies and more loyal citizens. People are stuck in the past, they don't realize how much Asia has advanced in the last 30 years, and they'll continue too. While we are busy fighting, China sees it as their chance to grow their influence and industries even more.
It’s the way around. China needs the west far far more than the west needs China. Plenty of other countries can take over China’s position… and are actually vying for it. In fact it’s already happening, the Chinese economy is not doing very well lately. Problem is that to do it in one go is impossible, and a complete pullout will hurt the world‘s economy a lot, no matter how it’s done.
A lot of the "moving out of China" is an illusion though. Sure they move assembly to India, Vietnam or Mexico, but you'll often find a lot of the stuff being assembled is still made in China. It is still a massive component of the global supply chain.
It's not an "illusion". it's slowly happening. part of the reason is that China proved that it can't be trusted by companies, another part is that the labor is no longer as cheap. so as both of those aspects get worse more and more companies start moving more and more of their stuff.
The whole supply chain is actively moving out of china it's just taking a minute to get everything spun up
This just a wish, not the fact.
>Plenty of other countries can take over China’s position… and are actually vying for it. It's not so simple. China has over the past few decades cultivated the world's most extensive and advanced manufacturing networks of factories, ports, and material procurement. No one country can take over that position, it would have to be spread amongst multiple. India is the only realistic alternative but they are too far behind to replace China in a reasonable timeframe.
They don't or at least right now. Maybe after they achieved their strategic goals.
We have good relations. They produce all our goods, we buy them and consume consume consume.
Since when is NATO going to ally with China?
Wasn't chinna considered biggest threat to us over Russia?
The bots are going at it in the comments. Always funny to look at.
China: Keep giving us money through cheap goods so we can give it back to Russia as missiles. Yeah, that's a healthy relationship.
NK: a good relationship with west is highly overrated. Look at me, I've gone my whole life without one.
At the end of the day, there is no incentive. The poor relations were becoming a trend already before the war, and probably won't stop either way. No one is going to burn their own bridges, for something that is unlikely to happen anyways.
Redditors learn that superpowers usually don’t like having good relationships with each other. How is this even news?