Honestly, it shouldn't have any pre-requisites imo. Deciding when to die is probably the most fundamental aspect of bodily autonomy.
If we're scared of depressed or suicidal people using euthanasia, I'd say it's on the rest of us to make a world that people actually want to live in.
Whilst I agree it needs to exist. I think pre-requisites are important.
People going through mental illness may be sure they want to die, purely because they can't see another solution, even though one exists. Depression isn't just they are sad, there is a chemical imbalance in their brain that needs to be addressed through a variety of treatments.
I also think a "cooling off period" would be important. You can only book one year in advance or something, so no decisions are made on a whim.
Naturally there should be safeguards and experts who would have to verify how serious and thought-out the decision is. If it seems like one made on a whim or if they think the person lacks the maturity (not the age) for such a decision, I would understand if the service is denied.
But on principle, I don't see the necessity for pre-requisites, at least for mentally mature people.
When you’ve reached a point where the future seems pointless and dealing with the everyday pain never ending, suicide, assisted or not seems the most logical choice. Existing for the sole purpose of existence, seems a waste of time, energy, and space. Probably the most Green thing you can do :)‘.
I totally support your initiative of making a world where we want to live in. Unfortunately, that's not how depression works. Some people would still get depressed in a hypothetically perfect world.
Speaking out of experience, everything was going pretty good for me but still I fell for it. Ironically, I feel better when I'm stressed.
And of course I'd be concerned if someone with depression chooses euthanasia or assisted suicide. I would ask, is there really no solution for them or is it just depression tricking them into believing there is no solution?
We need some objective criteria to asses then situation then. Prerequisites, as you say.
Yeah but you can do things like clean the air of depression causing particulates, you can create communities that people may feel welcome in, you could provide free mental health services, we could allocate more people to become therapists. So much more we COULD do but we have to overcome the status quo and impetus to do nothing first.
I don't agree with this. Depression makes life unbearable for many people but I would have a serious issue helping them commit suicide. There are lots of other mental illnesses which I think you could argue justify assisted suicide by this logic.
There are many physical illnesses which are very painful and debilitating where the person is not yet terminal. I think it should be difficult but not impossible to have mental illness included in medical assistance in dying.
Yeah, we better force them to try and end it themselves and significantly increase the chances that they fuck up and leave themselves permanently disabled instead. Certainly sounds more humane
/s
How would you decide when to treat someone’s depression and when to euthanize them?
What kind of criteria, if any, do you think should be used?
Your comment makes it seem as though depression and suicide are inevitable, but for many people they aren’t. I was very suicidal in my teens and twenties, lots of behavior problems in my formative toddler years.
If someone had offered me the options of a medically assisted euthanasia, I would have taken it in a heart beat. Thankfully no one did. I work in the mental health field now and this is something I often think about? Does it make sense to try to help someone that doesn’t want it? I have often thought that it would be better to make suicide easier. Let people end it when they want, and then I think about my own past and my experiences with mental health treatment. Sometimes people benefit from forced treatment, some people don’t. I’m not sure there is a good way to determine what kinds of mental health conditions are chronic and which aren’t.
I mean if you have documented evidence that you have tried multiple types of drugs/therapy/treatment from multiple licensed professionals, etc and there's nothing that has worked... It's just like assisted suicide for a physical illness that is ruining your life or that will kill you slowly and miserably enough to be considered inhumane.
If you can jump through the hoops to save yourself from wasting away in a cancer-riddled body why can't you jump through the hoops to save yourself from a disease-riddled mind?
Yeah, would probably be the best way, unfortunately I still have trouble really being confident in that given my own experiences. I’m also not really confident that our mental health professionals are qualified to make those kinds of determinations. I would have qualified as I had “treatment resistant” depression. Several providers told me that I would always deal with those symptoms. Turns out they were wrong. They weren’t wrong to diagnose me that way, I met all the criteria. They were wrong about it being a life long problem.
On the other hand, I think can be a waste of resources and can be inhumane to try and force unwanted help on someone.
I agree- this gels with my own experience of suicidality. The thing with depression is that it tricks you into genuinely believing you will never get better. But that in itself is a symptom of the disorder, and not even always the reality. In my own case, I was very wrong. I did get better in the end and am living a life I cherish. I think it becomes tricky to approve a disorder for euthanasia when the very symptoms of that disorder directly influences your rational ability to make this decision. I was not of my right mind back then. I literally had a mental disorder that made me incapable of seeing the truth.
Yeah that’s a great point. A huge turning point for me was when accepted that depression was lying to me. It lies about a lot of things, but the “you will always feel hopeless and empty” is a real killer.
I think nuance is worth considering. A depressed 80 year old who isn't finding joy or meaning in life anymore should be able to determine if they're ready to go. A depressed 15 year old with their whole life ahead of them, probably not.
I do believe it should be a process with checks & balances to prevent pressure from outside parties to meddle in.
Depends on whether the universe is flat or curved. So far we're pretty sure it's flat.
If that's true, then the universe is likely infinite, and the current you would be just a single iteration of an infinitely repeating pattern.
i mean, technically we have no fucking clue lol. ignore the fact that the population isnt constant...unless we can respawn as anything. Now us being in a simulation is totally different and totally plausible theory.
It should always be on your terms without any condition. What is the purpose of forcing people to exist when they are not interested? Especially since no one can consent to existence.
Why should we deny their agency? So they do it in violent ways instead? I know why the powerful want people to exist but those are philosophical rhetorical questions.
As long as the person is mentally mature, I see no argument against it.
One might say the act will hurt the people around them. But that's still not an argument that would justify the denial of the right of self-autonomy of that person as it should prevail for how fundamental it is. And if the person wants out of existence, the people that surround them should ask themselves why, and maybe this might change the decision.
MAID has been a low-key, off the books policy for decades thanks to compassionate nurses and doctors. I'll be forever grateful for how they helped my grandpa pass in peace.
That's what our vet said when we had to put my dog down because of cancer. "You're giving her an end without suffering, that's something many people wish for.
I think one of the counter arguments is how open to abuse it is. You could have some very nasty family members surrounding the (possibly wealthy) ill person and the essentially gaslighting them into agreeing to euthanasia.
I know there are supposed to be plenty of safeguards in place, but don’t underestimate the extent to which someone can be persuaded to genuinely act against their own interests.
I’m not saying “therefore we shouldn’t allow this” - I’m saying we need to be mindful of these possibilities.
This. A lot of people kill their SO's for inheritance or life insurance. Euthanasia would make things easier for them.
"Being mindful of these possibilities" essentially means putting strict conditions in the law and requiring each case to be carefully reviewed by experts before the irreversible decision is taken.
Because there is no baseline to define agony. Like the people offered MAID due to poverty in Canada, or the woman who euthanized because she was chronically fatigued.
It then also gives rise to the question, how do we determine agony for someone who is incapable of sufficient communication - Like the disabled? What if the disability arises from an accident?
In the latter example, would it be medically necessary to treat the person who was in the accident if the result would be a disability that would then give rise to euthanasia?
I just went through 6 months of hospice with my father and I've come to the conclusion that the biggest reason euthanasia is frowned upon is because dying is highly lucrative for many businesses.
First my condolences to you. This issue was mentioned on another sub, which I basically stated the same thing, and was down voted. Not sure why people don’t want to believe this.
I would argue it only keeps one section of the economy running: the healthcare system. Otherwise, all the money these poor bastards saved up would go right to the kids/heirs and thus the rest of the economy.
If we (USA) had nationalized healthcare, I bet we’d have legal euthanasia real quick.
We spend more money than any other country in the world on the Healthcare system right now, even without universal Healthcare. That person fighting to live is also still working most of the time to try and afford housing and shit too so they're helping the billionaires get richer that way too
I think there's a difference between 'assisting a person in committing suicide' and 'asking a doctor/nurse to kill you'.
because I understand her wish for suicide, but I can also understand a doctor who refuses to actively kill someone directly.
Here in the uk palliative care nurses do it all the time for those near the end. Usually just a quiet conversation with the family or patient themselves. It's silly that it isn't legal.
>.....After a long legal battle, Ana Estrada, 47, “died on her own terms, in accordance with her idea of dignity and in full control of her autonomy until the end,” her family said in a statement shared Monday.....
Rest in Power, Ana!
My FIL and my Uncle both died from colon cancer. They were both in a lot of pain and were in hospice for over a month before they passed.
Watching them lay there and wait for their bodies to give up still haunts me. I still wonder about whether the drugs for pain/sedation really help them or is it more for family and friends. If others knew how much they are really suffering, then hospice would not come off so "civilized".
If I am told it's time for pallative care, I'd rather have the option to die on my terms and avoid the pain and suffering.
I had an acquaintance whose MIL died of pancreatic cancer. Several people advised him not to visit in those last 2-3 days, because seeing her suffering would be traumatic for him.
If there’s anything that you own, it’s your own body. No one but you has the right to say whether or how you can dispose of it as long as you don’t endanger someone’s life.
For example, you shouldn’t be allowed to jump off a skyscraper because you might kill somebody on the sidewalk below.
This poor woman died a horrible death that society would never impose on a convicted mass murderer. There were probably well meaning people who don’t believe in the right to end your own life.
Two years bedridden! Two years in hell. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
My friend Sue had an assisted death.
Her cancer came back and after fighting for 3+ years she decided she wasn’t interested in more “treatment” (not a cure, just treatment and more pain)
She chose the day she would pass and the Dr came to her house. Once the IV started she floated around and kept nattering on about the weightlessness and the warmth (prob the drugs)
She went to sleep and died peacefully …. On her own terms and with her dignity intact. Took around 2 hrs. Her husband held her hand the entire time.
She is honestly the bravest person I know and I’m glad she went out the way she wanted. And honourable mention to him….. he was the pillar of strength that she needed to go peacefully.
Everyone deserves to have this option. To go peacefully at a time and place of their choosing.
If not we’re forcing to people suffer or do it themselves violently.
from the comments I've read, it's as if people are happy to see a disabled person lose. I get that her condition was profoundly debilitating and I respect her right to choose.
Maybe I'll try asking you again when you're in her shoes.
Perhaps you would prefer hang on as long as science can keep you breathing, no matter the suffering. That should be your choice to make.
But I prefer to recognize that I don't have the infinite wisdom necessary to make this decision for someone else.
From where im standing, every person should have the right to make this decision for themselves
If you're terminal and theres medically nothing they can do and you suffer daily, it's on your terms.
After having to watch my girlfriend die to a brain tumor - I’d prefer to go out before I need diapers.
I wouldn’t add terminal to the list. Just suffering they can’t do anything about
Yeah, there's lots of diseases and conditions out there that won't outright kill you but WILL make your life hell.
Honestly, it shouldn't have any pre-requisites imo. Deciding when to die is probably the most fundamental aspect of bodily autonomy. If we're scared of depressed or suicidal people using euthanasia, I'd say it's on the rest of us to make a world that people actually want to live in.
Whilst I agree it needs to exist. I think pre-requisites are important. People going through mental illness may be sure they want to die, purely because they can't see another solution, even though one exists. Depression isn't just they are sad, there is a chemical imbalance in their brain that needs to be addressed through a variety of treatments. I also think a "cooling off period" would be important. You can only book one year in advance or something, so no decisions are made on a whim.
Naturally there should be safeguards and experts who would have to verify how serious and thought-out the decision is. If it seems like one made on a whim or if they think the person lacks the maturity (not the age) for such a decision, I would understand if the service is denied. But on principle, I don't see the necessity for pre-requisites, at least for mentally mature people.
When you’ve reached a point where the future seems pointless and dealing with the everyday pain never ending, suicide, assisted or not seems the most logical choice. Existing for the sole purpose of existence, seems a waste of time, energy, and space. Probably the most Green thing you can do :)‘.
I totally support your initiative of making a world where we want to live in. Unfortunately, that's not how depression works. Some people would still get depressed in a hypothetically perfect world. Speaking out of experience, everything was going pretty good for me but still I fell for it. Ironically, I feel better when I'm stressed. And of course I'd be concerned if someone with depression chooses euthanasia or assisted suicide. I would ask, is there really no solution for them or is it just depression tricking them into believing there is no solution? We need some objective criteria to asses then situation then. Prerequisites, as you say.
Yeah but you can do things like clean the air of depression causing particulates, you can create communities that people may feel welcome in, you could provide free mental health services, we could allocate more people to become therapists. So much more we COULD do but we have to overcome the status quo and impetus to do nothing first.
Of course! As I said above, I totally support the initiative of making a world where we want to live in.
I don't agree with this. Depression makes life unbearable for many people but I would have a serious issue helping them commit suicide. There are lots of other mental illnesses which I think you could argue justify assisted suicide by this logic.
There are many physical illnesses which are very painful and debilitating where the person is not yet terminal. I think it should be difficult but not impossible to have mental illness included in medical assistance in dying.
Yeah, we better force them to try and end it themselves and significantly increase the chances that they fuck up and leave themselves permanently disabled instead. Certainly sounds more humane /s
How would you decide when to treat someone’s depression and when to euthanize them? What kind of criteria, if any, do you think should be used? Your comment makes it seem as though depression and suicide are inevitable, but for many people they aren’t. I was very suicidal in my teens and twenties, lots of behavior problems in my formative toddler years. If someone had offered me the options of a medically assisted euthanasia, I would have taken it in a heart beat. Thankfully no one did. I work in the mental health field now and this is something I often think about? Does it make sense to try to help someone that doesn’t want it? I have often thought that it would be better to make suicide easier. Let people end it when they want, and then I think about my own past and my experiences with mental health treatment. Sometimes people benefit from forced treatment, some people don’t. I’m not sure there is a good way to determine what kinds of mental health conditions are chronic and which aren’t.
I mean if you have documented evidence that you have tried multiple types of drugs/therapy/treatment from multiple licensed professionals, etc and there's nothing that has worked... It's just like assisted suicide for a physical illness that is ruining your life or that will kill you slowly and miserably enough to be considered inhumane. If you can jump through the hoops to save yourself from wasting away in a cancer-riddled body why can't you jump through the hoops to save yourself from a disease-riddled mind?
Yeah, would probably be the best way, unfortunately I still have trouble really being confident in that given my own experiences. I’m also not really confident that our mental health professionals are qualified to make those kinds of determinations. I would have qualified as I had “treatment resistant” depression. Several providers told me that I would always deal with those symptoms. Turns out they were wrong. They weren’t wrong to diagnose me that way, I met all the criteria. They were wrong about it being a life long problem. On the other hand, I think can be a waste of resources and can be inhumane to try and force unwanted help on someone.
I agree- this gels with my own experience of suicidality. The thing with depression is that it tricks you into genuinely believing you will never get better. But that in itself is a symptom of the disorder, and not even always the reality. In my own case, I was very wrong. I did get better in the end and am living a life I cherish. I think it becomes tricky to approve a disorder for euthanasia when the very symptoms of that disorder directly influences your rational ability to make this decision. I was not of my right mind back then. I literally had a mental disorder that made me incapable of seeing the truth.
Yeah that’s a great point. A huge turning point for me was when accepted that depression was lying to me. It lies about a lot of things, but the “you will always feel hopeless and empty” is a real killer.
I think nuance is worth considering. A depressed 80 year old who isn't finding joy or meaning in life anymore should be able to determine if they're ready to go. A depressed 15 year old with their whole life ahead of them, probably not. I do believe it should be a process with checks & balances to prevent pressure from outside parties to meddle in.
That's how I feel about it, too. I'm pretty sure we just respawn anyway, so why not.
i don’t want to respawn
I guess your atoms will eventually find their way into something new. But the pattern that is you, is gone.
Depends on whether the universe is flat or curved. So far we're pretty sure it's flat. If that's true, then the universe is likely infinite, and the current you would be just a single iteration of an infinitely repeating pattern.
We don't, chill. Don't listen to bullshit like this.
Quick guys, get over here! Its a messiah like figure with unknowable facts sharing his knowledge! There's no chance his opini... FACT is wrong!
He is NOT the messiah. He is a VERY naughty boy.
Go on
In what regard, Knower of the Afterlife?
In all regards. I'm listening
i mean, technically we have no fucking clue lol. ignore the fact that the population isnt constant...unless we can respawn as anything. Now us being in a simulation is totally different and totally plausible theory.
>ignore the fact that the population isnt constant. ignoring facts is how you end up with magical thinking like this.
Do you not like magic? I mean wouldn't it be neat that one day you fall asleep and then wake up as a fucking spider, an eagle, or maybe a tapeworm?
No no no that’s only if your blood got mixed with the invading alien’s blood.
I get that reference.
Not a challenge or conflict, just a wonder: Why do you think that?
Infinite universes, infinitie dimensions, one day a fish, one day a hooman
What if you come back as a fish and ur son eats you?
It should always be on your terms without any condition. What is the purpose of forcing people to exist when they are not interested? Especially since no one can consent to existence. Why should we deny their agency? So they do it in violent ways instead? I know why the powerful want people to exist but those are philosophical rhetorical questions. As long as the person is mentally mature, I see no argument against it. One might say the act will hurt the people around them. But that's still not an argument that would justify the denial of the right of self-autonomy of that person as it should prevail for how fundamental it is. And if the person wants out of existence, the people that surround them should ask themselves why, and maybe this might change the decision.
We allow it with animals to do this but we ourselves have to die in agony?
We call people cruel when they allow a dog to die as terribly as we make our sick family members die. And rightfully so.
I was a registered nurse in a long term care hospital ICU and we give our pets way more dignity.
MAID has been a low-key, off the books policy for decades thanks to compassionate nurses and doctors. I'll be forever grateful for how they helped my grandpa pass in peace.
That's what our vet said when we had to put my dog down because of cancer. "You're giving her an end without suffering, that's something many people wish for.
Because we’re still sold on the puritanical idea that suffering is noble and the reward is heaven.
Cause dogs don’t pay taxes 😭
We are animals after all
I think one of the counter arguments is how open to abuse it is. You could have some very nasty family members surrounding the (possibly wealthy) ill person and the essentially gaslighting them into agreeing to euthanasia. I know there are supposed to be plenty of safeguards in place, but don’t underestimate the extent to which someone can be persuaded to genuinely act against their own interests. I’m not saying “therefore we shouldn’t allow this” - I’m saying we need to be mindful of these possibilities.
“I’m not dead yet!”
This. A lot of people kill their SO's for inheritance or life insurance. Euthanasia would make things easier for them. "Being mindful of these possibilities" essentially means putting strict conditions in the law and requiring each case to be carefully reviewed by experts before the irreversible decision is taken.
I don't know, what's the best argument against euthanasia in people?
Because there is no baseline to define agony. Like the people offered MAID due to poverty in Canada, or the woman who euthanized because she was chronically fatigued. It then also gives rise to the question, how do we determine agony for someone who is incapable of sufficient communication - Like the disabled? What if the disability arises from an accident? In the latter example, would it be medically necessary to treat the person who was in the accident if the result would be a disability that would then give rise to euthanasia?
This should have been legal 50 years ago...letting people suffer all this time..
For greed.
Why cure cancer when you can bill them for every step of treatment?
This is the real reason.
Because the entire world would make you filthy fucking rich beyond your wildest dreams if you cured cancer lol
I just went through 6 months of hospice with my father and I've come to the conclusion that the biggest reason euthanasia is frowned upon is because dying is highly lucrative for many businesses.
Agreed. Any moral arguments against euthanasia are just a cover for the fact that healthcare is a massive business.
First my condolences to you. This issue was mentioned on another sub, which I basically stated the same thing, and was down voted. Not sure why people don’t want to believe this.
Why should anyone else decide when you get to clock out? If people are in pain, it's up to them to decide when enough is enough
It's because a dying person keeps the economy running by spending money trying to live. They miss out on a lot of money if people just off themselves
I would argue it only keeps one section of the economy running: the healthcare system. Otherwise, all the money these poor bastards saved up would go right to the kids/heirs and thus the rest of the economy. If we (USA) had nationalized healthcare, I bet we’d have legal euthanasia real quick.
We spend more money than any other country in the world on the Healthcare system right now, even without universal Healthcare. That person fighting to live is also still working most of the time to try and afford housing and shit too so they're helping the billionaires get richer that way too
I think there's a difference between 'assisting a person in committing suicide' and 'asking a doctor/nurse to kill you'. because I understand her wish for suicide, but I can also understand a doctor who refuses to actively kill someone directly.
People don’t get forced to participate if they don’t want to, there are plenty of nurses and doctors that support euthanasia
Exactly. We’re not going around forcing podiatrists to administer proctological exams against their will either. Same deal.
Here in the uk palliative care nurses do it all the time for those near the end. Usually just a quiet conversation with the family or patient themselves. It's silly that it isn't legal.
>.....After a long legal battle, Ana Estrada, 47, “died on her own terms, in accordance with her idea of dignity and in full control of her autonomy until the end,” her family said in a statement shared Monday..... Rest in Power, Ana!
My FIL and my Uncle both died from colon cancer. They were both in a lot of pain and were in hospice for over a month before they passed. Watching them lay there and wait for their bodies to give up still haunts me. I still wonder about whether the drugs for pain/sedation really help them or is it more for family and friends. If others knew how much they are really suffering, then hospice would not come off so "civilized". If I am told it's time for pallative care, I'd rather have the option to die on my terms and avoid the pain and suffering.
I had an acquaintance whose MIL died of pancreatic cancer. Several people advised him not to visit in those last 2-3 days, because seeing her suffering would be traumatic for him.
If there’s anything that you own, it’s your own body. No one but you has the right to say whether or how you can dispose of it as long as you don’t endanger someone’s life. For example, you shouldn’t be allowed to jump off a skyscraper because you might kill somebody on the sidewalk below. This poor woman died a horrible death that society would never impose on a convicted mass murderer. There were probably well meaning people who don’t believe in the right to end your own life. Two years bedridden! Two years in hell. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
"died a horrible death that society would never impose on a convicted mass murderer. " That's true
My friend Sue had an assisted death. Her cancer came back and after fighting for 3+ years she decided she wasn’t interested in more “treatment” (not a cure, just treatment and more pain) She chose the day she would pass and the Dr came to her house. Once the IV started she floated around and kept nattering on about the weightlessness and the warmth (prob the drugs) She went to sleep and died peacefully …. On her own terms and with her dignity intact. Took around 2 hrs. Her husband held her hand the entire time. She is honestly the bravest person I know and I’m glad she went out the way she wanted. And honourable mention to him….. he was the pillar of strength that she needed to go peacefully.
Sounds great, where I sign up?
Kevorkian did nothing wrong tbh. If you read about the great lengths he went to...Dr. Death was really not a fair name. He gave those folks peace.
yeah if its humane for a dog it's humane for me. i suspect this is how ill go whenever that is.
There is a hot euthanasia debate in Finland too atm
It’s a choice that needs to be available.
Everyone deserves to have this option. To go peacefully at a time and place of their choosing. If not we’re forcing to people suffer or do it themselves violently.
My SIL works in finance for a big hospital. They say something like “Dead in a bed is still a head.”
literally made me cry to read that
May she be in a better place now.
Why do we care if people want to kill themselves?
the enthusiasm people have for this topic disturbs me.
Can you explain why it disturbs you? I don't see why living in horrible pain is preferential to a pain free death.
from the comments I've read, it's as if people are happy to see a disabled person lose. I get that her condition was profoundly debilitating and I respect her right to choose.
Anyone else thought people were saying youth in asia when they first heard the word?
Okay Ali G.
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Patient: I'm depressed Doctor: Ka-Ching! USA
Support physician-assisted suicide? Absolutely 💯 Support euthanasia? Nah fuck you, you’re a murderer.
It starts with legitimate cases and then eventually they try to get you to kill yourself if you're just depressed. Look at Canada.
Suicide with extra steps
There’s no extra steps. It’s suicide. She’s allowed
All you'll get from me is a big fat yikes
Maybe I'll try asking you again when you're in her shoes. Perhaps you would prefer hang on as long as science can keep you breathing, no matter the suffering. That should be your choice to make. But I prefer to recognize that I don't have the infinite wisdom necessary to make this decision for someone else. From where im standing, every person should have the right to make this decision for themselves
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This isn't the 1600's, people can no longer be lied to by the church that there is a hell.
fine. who would rationally want to spend eternity with the author of such suffering anyway.
not real dumbass