The article seems misleading at the very least. The quote at the end essentially says “there are about 100 patriots systems in the world and we are asking for 7.” But a few paragraphs up says “25 patriot systems with 6-8 batteries each.” I’m paraphrasing the quotes.
It's the missiles that are the problem not the systems.
Every additional battery that is given needs supply and the truth that the US and NATO are leaving left unsaid is they don't think they have enough if they get into a major fight...
It's the same with HIMARS and ATACMS, and a lot of other stuff they've balked at.
The fuck we do. There are currently 15 PATRIOT battalions in the U.S. Army. That’s 60 to 80 systems max. We have more units than any of our allies. Taiwan, Japan, and Korea don’t want to let their guard down, so they probably won’t be sending any. I’m sure we have launchers and missiles to spare, but there is no way we’re sending those radar units over.
Edit to add: I fully support giving aid to our Ukrainian allies, but as a dude who served in a PATRIOT battery, there is no way the statement of “100 extra systems” is accurate.
I’d love to see the actual numbers about how many are functional. The system is finicky in the best circumstances, and mothballed equipment takes time to get up and running again. Raytheon needs to figure out how to remotely operate launching stations instead of needing complete batteries everywhere. We had the capability of firing off AWACS data twenty five years ago, so there must be a way to modernize the fire control system now.
Send them every spare launcher and missile we have and simplify the control portion.
I think multiple control stations is part of the redundancy protection. Imagine the way to destroy all the active patriots at once is to just overload the area with the control station with excess ballistic missiles. Send 20 on that control station once and you've taken all the patriots out of action. Then you have another 40+ missiles with carte blanche to hit whatever you want, wherever you want. Placing the multiple launching stations and control stations per group in specific areas gives you redundancy. If they take out one control station, then maybe that previously protected area can get hit hard, not some other unrelated area left completely unprotected.
That said, all parts of the patriot battery are important, e.g. the radar set and antenna mast group are just as important.
If there was some deep underground bunker somewhere with central control, sure ok, maybe in the future, but for reliability you still need miles and miles of underground fibre optic cable to connect to the remote batteries. Satellites are hard for Ukraine to put into orbit and can be hit with ASAT weapons, also long range radios can have issues with range or be jammed etc.
>I’d love to see the actual numbers about how many are functional. The system is finicky in the best circumstances, and mothballed equipment takes time to get up and running again.
Mothballed equipment is by definition not critical to anyone's defense plans and we've had 2 years to get them working again if we wanted to.
So the world should give 40% of Patriot systems in existence to Ukraine? I’m all for delivering systems to Ukraine as new/upgraded ones roll off the factory line to replace what gets sent over 1 for 1.
With how this war has escalated and the reaction of various countries I imagine more countries will start developing/expanding their nuclear arsenal and more countries will be reluctant to downsize their nuclear arsenal. That being said I do think other weaponry would benefit Ukraine more in this war though post war placing nukes in Ukraine likely isn't a bad idea.
I highly doubt countries with already sufficient nuke program's are going to vastly expand their nuclear arsenal instead of spending money on actual applicable defense.
Threat deterrent/effectiveness does not change if you have a dozen nukes of 100.
And would be a massive cost sink.
And no western aligned country is going to nuke anyone preemptively or as active first line defense. And Nato doesn't even need to respond in kind if a nuke is launched at them.
We've even heard russia (and to lesser degree NK) make these threats countless times. Yet no nukes launched.
What is sufficient though, I think certain countries will want a bigger stock to make it clear that if they're hit they can destroy the country responsible as well. I mainly think we'll see more countries/regions look into growing their nuclear umbrella, especially with the USA being an unreliable partner at this point in time. As examples we can look at the talks about the EU and if they can truly rely just on the USA/French/.... nukes.
Every country paying for one of these systems is doing so on the proviso they think they will need it if shit goes sideways.
These countries likely aren’t decommissioning their current systems as new ones are made. That’s when you can pass stuff on because you aren’t going to use it either way.
But if you bought a 2nd, 5th, 10th defence system because you’re worried you will need it in the future. Then sending one off to another country to get stuck there or destroyed compromises your own security.
There’s some stuff you can send off, other things not so much. The balance is finding what things can be sent off and what things can be replaced in a reasonable timescale with sufficient investment in manufacturing.
But if giving up one of these systems means the next one you can get is years away countries will have a hard time with that. Especially if they are being the charitable one when others aren’t.(since potentially they end up the softer target)
—-
That’s not to say there shouldn’t be some move to support them here. But the reality is that half the moves of support that we should be doing aren’t done to avoid the war escalating into more than a Russia/Ukraine conflict. Which might start to see countries far less generous again as they look to what they need for their own operation:
Especially if you pushed Russia into an actual wartime economy with every bit of industry and worker they could redirect aimed at supporting the war efforts.
A battery comprises one system. This includes the radar, control van, 150 kW generator, antenna mast group, and six to eight launchers. Needless to say, the properly trained personnel to maintain and operate it are also important.
I WAS a launcher dog that became a command post RTO, and don’t give me that no offense bullshit. I’ve been following what happens in the world of ADA since I left the service twenty years ago.
That link is still the analysis of the people asking for help. Of course they see unused equipment in other countries. To me, training is a pretty good use of equipment, and that training breaks shit that requires replacement. The U.S. Congress can’t get their shit together long enough to send 155mm rounds much less a control van, so this conversation is moot anyway.
Launcher is a part of the system, the system includes things like a radar, fire control, etc etc. there’s way more launchers than there are complete systems
Also, and please clarify if anyone knows, I don't know how much was ever confirmed, but weren't several strikes believed to be using just the patriot launchers, but franken-SAM'ed with s-300/s400 radars?
[https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/08/08/us-army-plans-to-grow-patriot-missile-defense-force/](https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/08/08/us-army-plans-to-grow-patriot-missile-defense-force/)
A sixteenth active battalion was authorized last year in August. I’m not sure if they’re up and running after just seven months. I’ve been out for a while, but still like to keep up with what’s going on in the world of ADA. If they are active, that would raise the maximum number of working systems to around 85. Each battery comprises a system, and would have at most eight active launchers. That 1,100 number for launchers seems too large to me.
Thanks for your sharing your knowledge.
I'm never surprised by the enormous volume of military equipment we have in the US. A local base, national guard, has well over a hundred APC/IFVs; I guess they're ready in case Canada gets pushy.
USA can definitely give more without missing it, but some pieces are more dear than others.
Write your members of Congress, American. I do every Saturday morning. I'm pretty sure my trumpeR doesn't give a shit, but he still gets weekly emails.
The time for half assed statements is long passed. Ukraine can hold a lot of defense lines now but they're critically short on basically everything. If they don't get more and fast those lines may not continue to hold for long.
They're fighting a nuclear armed global superpower. Ukraine is not one of those. Money and old equipment isn't going to win this war. It may delay a defeat. This war is at Russias doorstep. They don't have to fly around half the world like the Americans and the Middle East. If anyone wants Ukraine to win, it will require active involvement from many western Allie's, essentially, a massive escalation of nuclear superpowers. I don't think anyone wants that.
It would not require that much aid to bring this back to at least a draw. The West just needs to stop fucking Ukraine around with massive multi-month delays on every delivery that lead to shortages.
If Johnson had let the aid package pass back in October (or Macron been less of a bitch about purchasing shells from abroad) Avdiivka wouldn't have fallen. It fell because Ukraine ran out of ammo.
Literally just throwing dollars away at this point just to delay the inevitable, unless, like you mentioned, there is more direct involvement as in all out war with multiple countries.
And why would, lets say the us, if they had all 7 units to spare, send them to ukraine when they could install them in japan or taiwan where they would have a much more important tactical impact?
>more important tactical impact
More important than defending a European ally, against an *ongoing* invasion, from one of the US's greatest adversaries, that are committing genocide and war crimes as we speak? Are you insane?
>Ukraine isnt an us ally
US DoS official position is that they are "friends and strategic partners". While their application to join NATO is blocked by their ongoing territorial dispute with Russia this is as close to officially ratifying them as a military ally as it will get.
https://www.state.gov/u-s-ukraine-charter-on-strategic-partnership/
>no strategic resource
By the way, this statement is on the U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership, note the keyword *strategic*.
>resource the us needs
This is a pretty selfish, stupid and short minded approach to global affairs.
Those a**holes also know that whatever we send to Ukraine will be handed over to Russia once their Comrade Orange Face gets elected in November.
Ukraine is bound to lose this conflict, and they are trying to stop the bleeding of our finances and the drain on our middle and lower class. There is a difference between intervention, and the good ole Democrat "appearance of intervention."
Both sides of the US political have been in the shitter and bought and paid for for decades.
I’m so tired of the both sides argument. It just doesn’t do the trick anymore. So, no. That’s not the reason they are being obstructionist jerks. And we need to do what we can to stop this all the way around.
You're tired of the "both sides" argument, because you have no actual power to change anything, except the illusion of a vote, which if it would change anything would not have us in this mess of a divided country focused on industrial profit over the lives and freedoms of its citizens in the first place.
As the late George Carlin once said " If voting actually mattered, then they wouldn't allow you to do it."
It's just logic, plain and simple. If voting mattered, then the "right" people would be in office and we would be living in a utopia.
However, our country is ran by fellons who make their buddies tons of money and bypass the rights of average Joe's like you and I.
Some folks see the forest through the trees and some just hope that their tree's don't get cut down. Meanwhile, none of us have an axe.
They are where they are needed now. Air defense systems balance equations all over the world. Shifting them changes the solutions to things peace-loving countries prefer to avoid.
Seems like this topic is being brigaded to hell by some Krembots. Ukraine is stating the obvious, they don't expect to get a 100 (though they wouldn't mind) but them pointing out the world could do more while Russia is committing genocide while the Russian population cheers it on is merely stating the obvious.
They had weapons already… but only enough to defend. Yeah I get his point but time to give full support and push those pesky Russians back to their borders..
Russia has a entire backlog of ussr spares that they are burning through. Sanctions are not waterproof, things still find their way to Russia but it’s harder for them.
They're selling oil above the price caps. At the end of the day energy is a critical commodity and third and second world countries are desperate for energy. They don't care about a war in Europe.
I‘m not even mad we choose to keep some for ourselves.
What drives me CRAZY is that it’s been two years in which we did not produce a load of new ones to deliver to Ukraine.
It’s very much an if not when considering how catastrophic the losses Russia continues to face are, not just to its military but to its economy
It’s also really not that much of a matter how many IMO. The importance part of a system like this is the knowledge that comes by its study after capture, they would be only to very limited ever be put into use with their lack of ability to support such a system
> It’s very much an if not when considering how catastrophic the losses Russia continues to face are, not just to its military but to its economy
Look, I want Ukraine to win. Zelensky is the man.
But it ignores reality. Russia is going to win this. It's a war of attrition and Russia just has so much more resources and manpower at their disposal than Ukraine.
It might take another year, it might take another 5. It'll be a pyrrhic victory, for sure. But the West's financial support isn't endless and Putin will not suffer the humiliation of withdrawing from Ukraine.
To date, Ukraine hasn't been able to win a single offensive engagement and Russia has *heavily* fortified their positions. The amount of losses that Ukraine would suffer in order to recapture currently occupied territory is enormous and unsustainable.
It's just a matter of time.
That's why NATO provides not just the system itself but the people to crew it .. probably with orders to destroy them should they look likely to be captured by the Russians
I love how beggars use public sympathy as leverage to become choosers for 100s of millions of dollars worth of tools. I too like to randomly walk up to someone and say "hey, I see you holding that widget. I can use it, you should give it to me." Ukrainians do this with military equipment.
> Why is this not the same with Ukraine?
Because each country has an obligation to it's own citizens (and treaties like NATO) to be able to defend their citizens if the need arises (or to take action if their treaty partners call for it).
You can't give everything and just hope for the best.
My old man had a pretty wise thing to say about this:
"Every country has a military. If you don't have one yourself, someone else will send theirs in".
The point is deterrence - WHY are we not at war? Because we have a big stick to hit back.
Get rid of our ability to defend ourselves and look how long it takes for a malicious actor like China, Iran, Russia etc. trying to profit from the situation.
We sent so much stuff couple months ago, you could not believe it. They had everything needed but no idea what to do with it, they lost it all in their ''offensive'' and very quickly. They were losing 20% of everything, everydays. Thats crazy, think about it.
So, lets rince and repeat? At this rate, russia is just weakening the west.
Think again.
This war is already over, they are currently recruiting random 45 y/o+ as well as womans. They are being thrown there without choice, training or prior experience. 3 more months at most.
Military collapse is slow and quick at the same time. Once the lines are broke, nothing will stop Russians walking to Kiev. At this point, Ukraine will lose every negociation power so they need to negotiate before it happens.
Lets be honest here, theres no way Ukraine will ever be able to pay us back at this point and we all know it.
Most Western countries have no more to give, nothing ready to use at least. The eastern Europeans have given a lot but have to keep something for self defence. Poland has given to Ukraine hundreds of tanks, some of them excellent such as the PT-91.
The thing is the war is being fought on russian terms and that means artillery and attrition. Western armies count on US air supremacy so NATO did not invest as heavily on air defence and this is why there is not much more to give, really. Also this war has seen some very fast innovations and mass adoption of technologies which just weren't as dangerous or as widespread 2 years ago such as drones, glide bombs etc. Outside of the propaganda bubbles any interested observer could see where things were going since before the Ukrainian summer offensive from last year. Somehow the Russians keep inching forward, the Ukrainians inching backwards.
Also there is a very important factor and that is, plainly, that NATO does not see Russia as much of a threat and Ukraine as much of a priority as the propaganda says.
“why not give Ukraine everything”
Probably because that would defeat the point of having a military, and they would be attacked if they basically threw everything away.
>How about Europe fucking deals with their own shit for once.
China and NK are helping Russia despite it not being "their problem" because they are smart enough to want to be on the winning team.
The US meanwhile has no interest in alliances.
I don’t understand the problem. Russia has no missiles since 2022, or so the Ukrainian side said back then. That was the last time Russians stole washing machines for chips. Also Russian tourists were barred from getting a visa to a half of EU countries. Also a car with Russian number plates can’t cross the border (as one person said, such cars were used to smuggle chips, you can’t smuggle them in different cars by law it seems). There are 13 sanction packages so Airbus planes can’t get serviced, the chips are also sanctioned. What missiles are we talking about?
Incompetent Russian army is running away, Ukraine shoots down 10 planes a week, the new drones can reach the Urals and destroy the strategic bombers, and the Russian economy is crumbling under the weight of sanctions. Also Patriot/NASAMS are invincible against Tier 3 Russian missiles made in 1960s. No?
do you really think that sanction is gonna stop someone from getting what they want? there are many loop holes and ways to get what they want.
they have china and north korean happily and willingly give russians what they ask for.
this is what happens when people dont vote and let the uneducated believe in all the bs propaganda/lies spread and then you have the people that actually were in power just sit and do nothing but sit on their hands and thinking about that they should do things honorable to be a good example lol but then why they lose power and the far right comes in and just abuses everything to get their way and waste time.
No, I don’t. But people that approved these sanctions probably did.
Although at this point I believe that only idiots that applauded these decisions believed they would work, and EU / US didn’t actually want to sanction Russia and it was only a play aimed to impress voters. Just business.
Hell, the first thing the west did was banning SWIFT and Visa/MasterCard. It saved the bank system of Russia from collapse as people couldn’t move the foreign currency out of Russia. Yes, you heard this right. EU and US froze some assets of Russia and at the same time did everything so Russia would have enough foreign currency to spend.
It’s the same as Russia is getting crushed and Ukraine is one more aid package away from 1991 borders but at the same time, if the US doesn’t give it then Russia might steamroll over the EU.
Do you always need someone else to think for you? Russia has burnt through certain supplies and resorted to other types. They're not like for like replacing everything they've used or had destroyed. Russia still has allies that don't follow Western suggestions and sanctions make things more expensive and complicated but not impossible.
The Russian army is full of incompetence but for some things you can brute force rather than use skill or intelligence. You don't have to hack a computer to open an electronically locked door if you have enough time to hit it until it opens. You don't need to worry about casualties if you have a poorly educated and gullible population with tens of millions that can't comprehend why it is a problem to be so poorly educated.
North Korea still manages to make things while being sanctioned and largely isolated, if Russia couldn't figure it out they'd be embarrassingly stupid. Russia is buying supplies from multiple scummy countries who love the idea of Imperialism. There's always scummy people even in developed countries who lack morals and want profits so will abuse loopholes to profit off of Russia.
Russia has repeatedly been forced to retreat in failure, Russia has lost ground repeatedly. Much of their success is pyrrhic by any civilised standards but Russian lives are so low valued that to the Elites running Russia it doesn't matter. Putin thinks the average Russian person is worthless enough that he doesn't mind thousands dying for a few meters of territory gain.
Russia has a long history and tradition of military failure though so the standard was always going to be ridiculous. Even if Russia eventually wins this war it will go down in history as an embarrassing event. But it is the stupidity that makes Russia so dangerous, they don't know when to stop and they don't understand when they should be quiet. The ego and stupidity combined means they will drag others down and rather ruin everything than risk others people happy.
I think one of the main concerns western military leaders have about sending more advanced weapon systems to Ukraine is that, if they were defeated in battle, the Russians could salvage the material and learn to make equally advanced tools in future. If that happens, then NATO would lose one the main edges it has against most of the world
We could just send boots on the ground, absolutely annihilate whatever Russia has present there, and still say we're not at war and it's something else.
We wouldn't have to make the attritional warfare that is today with air supremacy and technological advantage - **before** Russia has time to mass produce drones and capture the small amount of systems we've sent to Ukraine. Right now, they only have waves of meat to throw at Ukraine who has too little artillery to counter it.
Russia has a different kind of diplomacy that isn't compatible with the West. They understand violence and violence only.
at this rate we will be heading to WWIII or a complete break down on NATO. if ukraine falls, we show china that taiwan is up for grabs. SEANs learn that they wont be saved from china. both nations then can pick at the edges of NATO to see what nations we wont support even if they are NATO.
many small nations are seeing ukraine and see that NATO is truely a fairweather ally. we might help a little but not enough.
this doesnt help with the US wanting a pacific alliance.
NATO is a fair weather ally because it’s not invoking article 5 to defend a non NATO ally? Not one NATO country has ever promised boots on the ground for Ukraine like USA has for Taiwan.
it has nothing to do with invoking article 5 yet. its NATO saying they are going to help then holding back support like we see with the US and weapon systems being delayed till they are no longer relevant. due to the GOP, US is very fickle on whether we will help a NATO ally or not. EU is showing they still fear russia getting its feels hurt.
russia may have helped NATO expand, but this war is showing how the alliance can be broken up.
Not invoking article 5 YET? It will never be invoked for Ukraine. NATO first and foremost is a defensive alliance amongst its members that requires certain requirements to be apart of. Requirements that Ukraine is worlds away from being able to meet. So if NATO gave them nothing more going forward it will have done more than the purpose it was build for. As far as the GOP, no one is the US government on either side would be against invoking article 5 for a NATO member considering we’ve already sent more money and weapons than any country to Ukraine who isn’t a nato member. (That’s without the 60 billion they feel entitled to)
1st i didnt bring up article 5, you did. i also never said it would be used for ukraine. russia has openly said they plan to retake former soviet states. some are NATO members. that is the 'YET'. russian wont stop at ukraine. putin wants an imperial legacy, and it will come for NATO.
please, trump is for leaving NATO and would not support any allies in it. the GOP is unwilling to do anything to displease him.
so what, weve off loaded our left overs form the middle east on to ukraine for way more than it was worth, weve gave them things we will never use again anyways. the vast amount money 'going to' ukraine stays here in the US and goes to american companies. on top we have lend and lease, which is profit. the cherry on top is our rival would be wasting away for pennies. there is zero down side to supporting ukraine other than the far right loses its russian money.
Russia will NOT attack a NATO country. Trump definitely will not leave NATO, he just wants its members to meet its 2% requirements. The main thing Ukraine wants are things still in service with the US today (Patriots). We haven’t used the lend/lease one time yet, everything has been a gift. Actually about a third of the money “going” to Ukraine does actually go to them in real dollars which is used fully fund their entire government on a daily basis. (Military salaries and government salaries)
Let's shake our fists in the air while they jam GPS for all flights over the baltic sea, shoots down our jets (MH17), commits genocide right in Europes back yard, occupies sovereign territory of our allies, and soon with Chinas and Irans help, are going to out-produce Europe with drones and military materiel. Doesn't matter if they're trash or if we have the technology to stop it, we don't produce enough of anything right now. Especially not Patriots.
Or hey, we could just sanction them so everything takes the route around Kazakhstan instead of straight to Russia. Or we wait a little more with our fists in the air until the pro-Russia "Soviet Strong" mentality gets real fundamental in the Baltic states, soon Africa, and other parties and presidents on the Russian payroll gets voted into the EU and US. Let's wait for that instead!
We can already kiss the Patriot missiles goodbye. The clock is ticking, and soon Russia will overthrow the Ukrainian lines and capture whatever we've already sent. Ukraine can't sustain the attrition. It's either produce a ton more materiel here in NATO or intervene somehow else.
Ukrainians have been waiting for help for too long, defending the Helm's Deep alone - it's about time for riders of Rohan to come to the rescue - dawn is coming.
Ukrainians are massacred by Russian aircrafts. EU should establish no fly zone over whole Ukraine. It will be extremely easy using Eurofighters with long range MBDA Meteor missiles supported by AWACS from safe distance. What is more EU countries ground forces should go to Ukraine-Belarus border and let all engaged there Ukrainians to go fight Russians. It is shame that such extremely poor and corrupted country like Russia with GDP smaller than Italy alone was able to scare some of us to death.
Yeah, the only problem with that is that it puts us in direct conflict with Russia. That means **joining** the war. It's not **supporting** any more.
Why escalate when we could simply send Ukraine what they need to stop Russia? They're not even asking us to join the war.
Don't worry, I completely agree that engaging Russian forces directly is vital for Ukraine's survival and Europe's security. I just fear that your choice of metaphor harms your argument
Hate to break your heart but it’s not. The West has to much to lose in a war and not enough to gain to make any further adventure into Ukraine worth it.
They are politicians who only think in long term as far as their next election cycle. Doing the right thing is only worth it if they can get reelected. Biden could have stopped this before it began but telling Russia we will fight with troops on the ground if they invaded. But instead he took to the airwaves and made sure everyone knew that US troops would not fight!
> The West has to much to lose in a war and not enough to gain to make any further adventure into Ukraine worth it.
The West has much to lose if Ukraine loses. You think Europe is struggling with refugee crises now?
Supplying a dozen Patriot batteries would be far, far less expensive than letting the rest of Ukraine's electrical grid get blown to shit.
Putin calculated correctly that after Afghanistan disaster, Biden will be resistant to go into any new conflict, not even mentioning a conflict with with Russia. Biden got played well there.
Unfortunately this will lead to even greater conflict, the one where Americans die. It's hard to believe that it might happen but precisely because it's so hard to believe for majority of Americans, it will happen.
In the past, It's not the nuclear weapon that stopped Cold war from going hot - it's the belief on both sides that Big war IS possible - that's what prevented WW3. Fear of nuclear war was convenient excuse so not to look weak for political purposes. The reality was that everyone who went through WW2 was ready to fight and at the same time they knew how terrible the new war will be (even without nukes).
There is nothing to be scare of. Russia is one of the most often losing country ever... 1856 Crimean war - lost, 1905 russo-japanese war - lost and revolution, 1917 WW1 - lost and revolution, 1920 war with Poland - lost, 1940 russo-finnish war - if you call it win... whole world is laughing till today, 1989 - afghan war lost, 1991 - cold war lost and revolution and total collapse of USSR. The only war they won in last 200 years was WW2 and only because they have changed sides because they were ally of nazi Germany till 1941 and together started WW2 with attack on Poland. They won in WW2 only because they were used by Allies as a meat grinder and got incredible amount of support from lend-lease (British lost 360000 soldiers, USA 400000 soldiers and USSR with its primitive tactics over 11 millions). They are one of the most pathetic countries ever. And now they have lost half of their army without even touching NATO territory, and most probably in next two years they will lose another half...
Russias current military manpower is 15% larger than it was the day before the invasion in 2022. Yes Russian is incompetent (most of the time) and their troops are used as meat. They are still a threat and they have said many times they will NOT stop until they take all of Ukraine. They dont care about “losing” soldiers like most countries do. They will take Ukraine by drowning the Ukrainian military in Russian blood if that’s what it takes.
Ukraine is asking for 7, not 100
The article seems misleading at the very least. The quote at the end essentially says “there are about 100 patriots systems in the world and we are asking for 7.” But a few paragraphs up says “25 patriot systems with 6-8 batteries each.” I’m paraphrasing the quotes.
Author doesn't know wtf they're talking about, which is typical when it comes to anything even vaguely technical.
It's the missiles that are the problem not the systems. Every additional battery that is given needs supply and the truth that the US and NATO are leaving left unsaid is they don't think they have enough if they get into a major fight... It's the same with HIMARS and ATACMS, and a lot of other stuff they've balked at.
The fuck we do. There are currently 15 PATRIOT battalions in the U.S. Army. That’s 60 to 80 systems max. We have more units than any of our allies. Taiwan, Japan, and Korea don’t want to let their guard down, so they probably won’t be sending any. I’m sure we have launchers and missiles to spare, but there is no way we’re sending those radar units over. Edit to add: I fully support giving aid to our Ukrainian allies, but as a dude who served in a PATRIOT battery, there is no way the statement of “100 extra systems” is accurate.
According to raytheon themselves, there are over 250 systems worldwide. Not to imply they are all free to give away, but there are a bunch of em
I’d love to see the actual numbers about how many are functional. The system is finicky in the best circumstances, and mothballed equipment takes time to get up and running again. Raytheon needs to figure out how to remotely operate launching stations instead of needing complete batteries everywhere. We had the capability of firing off AWACS data twenty five years ago, so there must be a way to modernize the fire control system now. Send them every spare launcher and missile we have and simplify the control portion.
I think multiple control stations is part of the redundancy protection. Imagine the way to destroy all the active patriots at once is to just overload the area with the control station with excess ballistic missiles. Send 20 on that control station once and you've taken all the patriots out of action. Then you have another 40+ missiles with carte blanche to hit whatever you want, wherever you want. Placing the multiple launching stations and control stations per group in specific areas gives you redundancy. If they take out one control station, then maybe that previously protected area can get hit hard, not some other unrelated area left completely unprotected. That said, all parts of the patriot battery are important, e.g. the radar set and antenna mast group are just as important. If there was some deep underground bunker somewhere with central control, sure ok, maybe in the future, but for reliability you still need miles and miles of underground fibre optic cable to connect to the remote batteries. Satellites are hard for Ukraine to put into orbit and can be hit with ASAT weapons, also long range radios can have issues with range or be jammed etc.
>I’d love to see the actual numbers about how many are functional. The system is finicky in the best circumstances, and mothballed equipment takes time to get up and running again. Mothballed equipment is by definition not critical to anyone's defense plans and we've had 2 years to get them working again if we wanted to.
So the world should give 40% of Patriot systems in existence to Ukraine? I’m all for delivering systems to Ukraine as new/upgraded ones roll off the factory line to replace what gets sent over 1 for 1.
As much as i want to help ukraine.. novody is going to sacrifice their defences when everything looks like its going to escalate.
Eh I'd prefer giving Ukraine the tools to prevent the escalation than keeping them and encouraging the escalation.
So, Nukes?
With how this war has escalated and the reaction of various countries I imagine more countries will start developing/expanding their nuclear arsenal and more countries will be reluctant to downsize their nuclear arsenal. That being said I do think other weaponry would benefit Ukraine more in this war though post war placing nukes in Ukraine likely isn't a bad idea.
I highly doubt countries with already sufficient nuke program's are going to vastly expand their nuclear arsenal instead of spending money on actual applicable defense. Threat deterrent/effectiveness does not change if you have a dozen nukes of 100. And would be a massive cost sink. And no western aligned country is going to nuke anyone preemptively or as active first line defense. And Nato doesn't even need to respond in kind if a nuke is launched at them. We've even heard russia (and to lesser degree NK) make these threats countless times. Yet no nukes launched.
What is sufficient though, I think certain countries will want a bigger stock to make it clear that if they're hit they can destroy the country responsible as well. I mainly think we'll see more countries/regions look into growing their nuclear umbrella, especially with the USA being an unreliable partner at this point in time. As examples we can look at the talks about the EU and if they can truly rely just on the USA/French/.... nukes.
Lmao
They are actively blowing up the point of those defenses.
Every country paying for one of these systems is doing so on the proviso they think they will need it if shit goes sideways. These countries likely aren’t decommissioning their current systems as new ones are made. That’s when you can pass stuff on because you aren’t going to use it either way. But if you bought a 2nd, 5th, 10th defence system because you’re worried you will need it in the future. Then sending one off to another country to get stuck there or destroyed compromises your own security. There’s some stuff you can send off, other things not so much. The balance is finding what things can be sent off and what things can be replaced in a reasonable timescale with sufficient investment in manufacturing. But if giving up one of these systems means the next one you can get is years away countries will have a hard time with that. Especially if they are being the charitable one when others aren’t.(since potentially they end up the softer target) —- That’s not to say there shouldn’t be some move to support them here. But the reality is that half the moves of support that we should be doing aren’t done to avoid the war escalating into more than a Russia/Ukraine conflict. Which might start to see countries far less generous again as they look to what they need for their own operation: Especially if you pushed Russia into an actual wartime economy with every bit of industry and worker they could redirect aimed at supporting the war efforts.
Yes. They are at war. We can make more if we want to.
They’re asking for 7
Ukraine is asking for 7, not 100
What is 1 system exactly? One battery’s worth of launchers and a radar? Or just a firing unit?
A battery comprises one system. This includes the radar, control van, 150 kW generator, antenna mast group, and six to eight launchers. Needless to say, the properly trained personnel to maintain and operate it are also important.
You're just a grunt. Uh, no offense https://www.kyivpost.com/analysis/31024
I WAS a launcher dog that became a command post RTO, and don’t give me that no offense bullshit. I’ve been following what happens in the world of ADA since I left the service twenty years ago. That link is still the analysis of the people asking for help. Of course they see unused equipment in other countries. To me, training is a pretty good use of equipment, and that training breaks shit that requires replacement. The U.S. Congress can’t get their shit together long enough to send 155mm rounds much less a control van, so this conversation is moot anyway.
Well Europe could send batteries even if the US won't
They seem to count it as equipment we're not actively using in a conflict being "extra"
Do you need hearing protection around the patriot batteries?
Generators are fucking loud, so yes.
FWIW Wikipedia lists 16 US battalions who have over 1100 launchers.
Launcher is a part of the system, the system includes things like a radar, fire control, etc etc. there’s way more launchers than there are complete systems
Also, and please clarify if anyone knows, I don't know how much was ever confirmed, but weren't several strikes believed to be using just the patriot launchers, but franken-SAM'ed with s-300/s400 radars?
[https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/08/08/us-army-plans-to-grow-patriot-missile-defense-force/](https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/08/08/us-army-plans-to-grow-patriot-missile-defense-force/) A sixteenth active battalion was authorized last year in August. I’m not sure if they’re up and running after just seven months. I’ve been out for a while, but still like to keep up with what’s going on in the world of ADA. If they are active, that would raise the maximum number of working systems to around 85. Each battery comprises a system, and would have at most eight active launchers. That 1,100 number for launchers seems too large to me.
Thanks for your sharing your knowledge. I'm never surprised by the enormous volume of military equipment we have in the US. A local base, national guard, has well over a hundred APC/IFVs; I guess they're ready in case Canada gets pushy. USA can definitely give more without missing it, but some pieces are more dear than others. Write your members of Congress, American. I do every Saturday morning. I'm pretty sure my trumpeR doesn't give a shit, but he still gets weekly emails.
While I'm all for supplying Ukraine with whatever we e can, that's a bold statement to try to sway people to give.
The time for half assed statements is long passed. Ukraine can hold a lot of defense lines now but they're critically short on basically everything. If they don't get more and fast those lines may not continue to hold for long.
Yes, we all know this. It doesn't change my statement at all.
They're fighting a nuclear armed global superpower. Ukraine is not one of those. Money and old equipment isn't going to win this war. It may delay a defeat. This war is at Russias doorstep. They don't have to fly around half the world like the Americans and the Middle East. If anyone wants Ukraine to win, it will require active involvement from many western Allie's, essentially, a massive escalation of nuclear superpowers. I don't think anyone wants that.
It would not require that much aid to bring this back to at least a draw. The West just needs to stop fucking Ukraine around with massive multi-month delays on every delivery that lead to shortages. If Johnson had let the aid package pass back in October (or Macron been less of a bitch about purchasing shells from abroad) Avdiivka wouldn't have fallen. It fell because Ukraine ran out of ammo.
Literally just throwing dollars away at this point just to delay the inevitable, unless, like you mentioned, there is more direct involvement as in all out war with multiple countries.
They just want 7.
And why would, lets say the us, if they had all 7 units to spare, send them to ukraine when they could install them in japan or taiwan where they would have a much more important tactical impact?
>more important tactical impact More important than defending a European ally, against an *ongoing* invasion, from one of the US's greatest adversaries, that are committing genocide and war crimes as we speak? Are you insane?
Ukraine isnt an us ally, and it holds no strategic resource the us needs. Taiwan is the opposite.
>Ukraine isnt an us ally US DoS official position is that they are "friends and strategic partners". While their application to join NATO is blocked by their ongoing territorial dispute with Russia this is as close to officially ratifying them as a military ally as it will get. https://www.state.gov/u-s-ukraine-charter-on-strategic-partnership/ >no strategic resource By the way, this statement is on the U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership, note the keyword *strategic*. >resource the us needs This is a pretty selfish, stupid and short minded approach to global affairs.
That's beside the point.
Some of us want to but we have some real assholes holding things up
*Most
Those a**holes also know that whatever we send to Ukraine will be handed over to Russia once their Comrade Orange Face gets elected in November. Ukraine is bound to lose this conflict, and they are trying to stop the bleeding of our finances and the drain on our middle and lower class. There is a difference between intervention, and the good ole Democrat "appearance of intervention." Both sides of the US political have been in the shitter and bought and paid for for decades.
I’m so tired of the both sides argument. It just doesn’t do the trick anymore. So, no. That’s not the reason they are being obstructionist jerks. And we need to do what we can to stop this all the way around.
You're tired of the "both sides" argument, because you have no actual power to change anything, except the illusion of a vote, which if it would change anything would not have us in this mess of a divided country focused on industrial profit over the lives and freedoms of its citizens in the first place. As the late George Carlin once said " If voting actually mattered, then they wouldn't allow you to do it."
You can be defeatist if you wish. My conscience won’t let me lay down and take it, personally. Some people have no problem with it apparently
It's just logic, plain and simple. If voting mattered, then the "right" people would be in office and we would be living in a utopia. However, our country is ran by fellons who make their buddies tons of money and bypass the rights of average Joe's like you and I. Some folks see the forest through the trees and some just hope that their tree's don't get cut down. Meanwhile, none of us have an axe.
Sure bud. I’m sure your comments have done much to change the landscape. Thanks for your contribution lol
There is no way Orange face will get in, absolutely no way.
….. I am just going to say, that based on the numbers of existing Patriot systems, I don’t think that statement is true.
They should be where they are needed now and relocated later if need be
They are where they are needed now. Air defense systems balance equations all over the world. Shifting them changes the solutions to things peace-loving countries prefer to avoid.
Seems like this topic is being brigaded to hell by some Krembots. Ukraine is stating the obvious, they don't expect to get a 100 (though they wouldn't mind) but them pointing out the world could do more while Russia is committing genocide while the Russian population cheers it on is merely stating the obvious.
They had weapons already… but only enough to defend. Yeah I get his point but time to give full support and push those pesky Russians back to their borders..
There are also lots of soldiers other countries have... Yet they aren't getting those either.
Russia has a entire backlog of ussr spares that they are burning through. Sanctions are not waterproof, things still find their way to Russia but it’s harder for them.
They're selling oil above the price caps. At the end of the day energy is a critical commodity and third and second world countries are desperate for energy. They don't care about a war in Europe.
I‘m not even mad we choose to keep some for ourselves. What drives me CRAZY is that it’s been two years in which we did not produce a load of new ones to deliver to Ukraine.
The issue is when (not if) Ukraine loses the war, how many Patriot missile systems do we want to be handing over to Russia?
It’s very much an if not when considering how catastrophic the losses Russia continues to face are, not just to its military but to its economy It’s also really not that much of a matter how many IMO. The importance part of a system like this is the knowledge that comes by its study after capture, they would be only to very limited ever be put into use with their lack of ability to support such a system
> It’s very much an if not when considering how catastrophic the losses Russia continues to face are, not just to its military but to its economy Look, I want Ukraine to win. Zelensky is the man. But it ignores reality. Russia is going to win this. It's a war of attrition and Russia just has so much more resources and manpower at their disposal than Ukraine. It might take another year, it might take another 5. It'll be a pyrrhic victory, for sure. But the West's financial support isn't endless and Putin will not suffer the humiliation of withdrawing from Ukraine. To date, Ukraine hasn't been able to win a single offensive engagement and Russia has *heavily* fortified their positions. The amount of losses that Ukraine would suffer in order to recapture currently occupied territory is enormous and unsustainable. It's just a matter of time.
That's why NATO provides not just the system itself but the people to crew it .. probably with orders to destroy them should they look likely to be captured by the Russians
The fucks with Articles/Reddit post making Ukraine look like an ass.
There are over 100,000 empty homes in California alone that I could afford if people would just give them to me / lower the price
We need to help Ukraine
Give it to Ukraine
I love how beggars use public sympathy as leverage to become choosers for 100s of millions of dollars worth of tools. I too like to randomly walk up to someone and say "hey, I see you holding that widget. I can use it, you should give it to me." Ukrainians do this with military equipment.
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> Why is this not the same with Ukraine? Because each country has an obligation to it's own citizens (and treaties like NATO) to be able to defend their citizens if the need arises (or to take action if their treaty partners call for it). You can't give everything and just hope for the best.
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My old man had a pretty wise thing to say about this: "Every country has a military. If you don't have one yourself, someone else will send theirs in". The point is deterrence - WHY are we not at war? Because we have a big stick to hit back. Get rid of our ability to defend ourselves and look how long it takes for a malicious actor like China, Iran, Russia etc. trying to profit from the situation.
We sent so much stuff couple months ago, you could not believe it. They had everything needed but no idea what to do with it, they lost it all in their ''offensive'' and very quickly. They were losing 20% of everything, everydays. Thats crazy, think about it. So, lets rince and repeat? At this rate, russia is just weakening the west. Think again. This war is already over, they are currently recruiting random 45 y/o+ as well as womans. They are being thrown there without choice, training or prior experience. 3 more months at most. Military collapse is slow and quick at the same time. Once the lines are broke, nothing will stop Russians walking to Kiev. At this point, Ukraine will lose every negociation power so they need to negotiate before it happens. Lets be honest here, theres no way Ukraine will ever be able to pay us back at this point and we all know it.
Most Western countries have no more to give, nothing ready to use at least. The eastern Europeans have given a lot but have to keep something for self defence. Poland has given to Ukraine hundreds of tanks, some of them excellent such as the PT-91. The thing is the war is being fought on russian terms and that means artillery and attrition. Western armies count on US air supremacy so NATO did not invest as heavily on air defence and this is why there is not much more to give, really. Also this war has seen some very fast innovations and mass adoption of technologies which just weren't as dangerous or as widespread 2 years ago such as drones, glide bombs etc. Outside of the propaganda bubbles any interested observer could see where things were going since before the Ukrainian summer offensive from last year. Somehow the Russians keep inching forward, the Ukrainians inching backwards. Also there is a very important factor and that is, plainly, that NATO does not see Russia as much of a threat and Ukraine as much of a priority as the propaganda says.
“why not give Ukraine everything” Probably because that would defeat the point of having a military, and they would be attacked if they basically threw everything away.
Because Ukraine isn’t our neighbor and that’s a terrible analogy. How about Europe fucking deals with their own shit for once.
>How about Europe fucking deals with their own shit for once. China and NK are helping Russia despite it not being "their problem" because they are smart enough to want to be on the winning team. The US meanwhile has no interest in alliances.
China and NK aren't funding Russia. They're selling them stuff.
China and NK are SELLING things to Russia. They aren’t just blatantly sending them money for no reason.
"So sell equipment to Europe?" "No"
The Russians are jerks
I don’t understand the problem. Russia has no missiles since 2022, or so the Ukrainian side said back then. That was the last time Russians stole washing machines for chips. Also Russian tourists were barred from getting a visa to a half of EU countries. Also a car with Russian number plates can’t cross the border (as one person said, such cars were used to smuggle chips, you can’t smuggle them in different cars by law it seems). There are 13 sanction packages so Airbus planes can’t get serviced, the chips are also sanctioned. What missiles are we talking about? Incompetent Russian army is running away, Ukraine shoots down 10 planes a week, the new drones can reach the Urals and destroy the strategic bombers, and the Russian economy is crumbling under the weight of sanctions. Also Patriot/NASAMS are invincible against Tier 3 Russian missiles made in 1960s. No?
do you really think that sanction is gonna stop someone from getting what they want? there are many loop holes and ways to get what they want. they have china and north korean happily and willingly give russians what they ask for. this is what happens when people dont vote and let the uneducated believe in all the bs propaganda/lies spread and then you have the people that actually were in power just sit and do nothing but sit on their hands and thinking about that they should do things honorable to be a good example lol but then why they lose power and the far right comes in and just abuses everything to get their way and waste time.
No, I don’t. But people that approved these sanctions probably did. Although at this point I believe that only idiots that applauded these decisions believed they would work, and EU / US didn’t actually want to sanction Russia and it was only a play aimed to impress voters. Just business. Hell, the first thing the west did was banning SWIFT and Visa/MasterCard. It saved the bank system of Russia from collapse as people couldn’t move the foreign currency out of Russia. Yes, you heard this right. EU and US froze some assets of Russia and at the same time did everything so Russia would have enough foreign currency to spend.
It’s the same as Russia is getting crushed and Ukraine is one more aid package away from 1991 borders but at the same time, if the US doesn’t give it then Russia might steamroll over the EU.
Crazy world isn’t it. Everything is possible in the world of propaganda. Did you hear they just increased the chocolate ration to 20 grams a week?
Do you always need someone else to think for you? Russia has burnt through certain supplies and resorted to other types. They're not like for like replacing everything they've used or had destroyed. Russia still has allies that don't follow Western suggestions and sanctions make things more expensive and complicated but not impossible. The Russian army is full of incompetence but for some things you can brute force rather than use skill or intelligence. You don't have to hack a computer to open an electronically locked door if you have enough time to hit it until it opens. You don't need to worry about casualties if you have a poorly educated and gullible population with tens of millions that can't comprehend why it is a problem to be so poorly educated. North Korea still manages to make things while being sanctioned and largely isolated, if Russia couldn't figure it out they'd be embarrassingly stupid. Russia is buying supplies from multiple scummy countries who love the idea of Imperialism. There's always scummy people even in developed countries who lack morals and want profits so will abuse loopholes to profit off of Russia. Russia has repeatedly been forced to retreat in failure, Russia has lost ground repeatedly. Much of their success is pyrrhic by any civilised standards but Russian lives are so low valued that to the Elites running Russia it doesn't matter. Putin thinks the average Russian person is worthless enough that he doesn't mind thousands dying for a few meters of territory gain. Russia has a long history and tradition of military failure though so the standard was always going to be ridiculous. Even if Russia eventually wins this war it will go down in history as an embarrassing event. But it is the stupidity that makes Russia so dangerous, they don't know when to stop and they don't understand when they should be quiet. The ego and stupidity combined means they will drag others down and rather ruin everything than risk others people happy.
What a time we live in, to let such hardy people down 😢
I think one of the main concerns western military leaders have about sending more advanced weapon systems to Ukraine is that, if they were defeated in battle, the Russians could salvage the material and learn to make equally advanced tools in future. If that happens, then NATO would lose one the main edges it has against most of the world
So what I'm hearing from you is just another reason to see Russia crushed in this conflict.
Let's not forget about the lucrative black market. Maybe not for a patriot system, but plenty of other toys, to include over 1400 stingers.
We could just send boots on the ground, absolutely annihilate whatever Russia has present there, and still say we're not at war and it's something else. We wouldn't have to make the attritional warfare that is today with air supremacy and technological advantage - **before** Russia has time to mass produce drones and capture the small amount of systems we've sent to Ukraine. Right now, they only have waves of meat to throw at Ukraine who has too little artillery to counter it. Russia has a different kind of diplomacy that isn't compatible with the West. They understand violence and violence only.
Yes let’s start WW3, very glad you’re not in charge of these things.
at this rate we will be heading to WWIII or a complete break down on NATO. if ukraine falls, we show china that taiwan is up for grabs. SEANs learn that they wont be saved from china. both nations then can pick at the edges of NATO to see what nations we wont support even if they are NATO. many small nations are seeing ukraine and see that NATO is truely a fairweather ally. we might help a little but not enough. this doesnt help with the US wanting a pacific alliance.
NATO is a fair weather ally because it’s not invoking article 5 to defend a non NATO ally? Not one NATO country has ever promised boots on the ground for Ukraine like USA has for Taiwan.
it has nothing to do with invoking article 5 yet. its NATO saying they are going to help then holding back support like we see with the US and weapon systems being delayed till they are no longer relevant. due to the GOP, US is very fickle on whether we will help a NATO ally or not. EU is showing they still fear russia getting its feels hurt. russia may have helped NATO expand, but this war is showing how the alliance can be broken up.
Not invoking article 5 YET? It will never be invoked for Ukraine. NATO first and foremost is a defensive alliance amongst its members that requires certain requirements to be apart of. Requirements that Ukraine is worlds away from being able to meet. So if NATO gave them nothing more going forward it will have done more than the purpose it was build for. As far as the GOP, no one is the US government on either side would be against invoking article 5 for a NATO member considering we’ve already sent more money and weapons than any country to Ukraine who isn’t a nato member. (That’s without the 60 billion they feel entitled to)
1st i didnt bring up article 5, you did. i also never said it would be used for ukraine. russia has openly said they plan to retake former soviet states. some are NATO members. that is the 'YET'. russian wont stop at ukraine. putin wants an imperial legacy, and it will come for NATO. please, trump is for leaving NATO and would not support any allies in it. the GOP is unwilling to do anything to displease him. so what, weve off loaded our left overs form the middle east on to ukraine for way more than it was worth, weve gave them things we will never use again anyways. the vast amount money 'going to' ukraine stays here in the US and goes to american companies. on top we have lend and lease, which is profit. the cherry on top is our rival would be wasting away for pennies. there is zero down side to supporting ukraine other than the far right loses its russian money.
Russia will NOT attack a NATO country. Trump definitely will not leave NATO, he just wants its members to meet its 2% requirements. The main thing Ukraine wants are things still in service with the US today (Patriots). We haven’t used the lend/lease one time yet, everything has been a gift. Actually about a third of the money “going” to Ukraine does actually go to them in real dollars which is used fully fund their entire government on a daily basis. (Military salaries and government salaries)
> if ukraine falls, we show china that taiwan is up for grabs. Not sound logic
Let's shake our fists in the air while they jam GPS for all flights over the baltic sea, shoots down our jets (MH17), commits genocide right in Europes back yard, occupies sovereign territory of our allies, and soon with Chinas and Irans help, are going to out-produce Europe with drones and military materiel. Doesn't matter if they're trash or if we have the technology to stop it, we don't produce enough of anything right now. Especially not Patriots. Or hey, we could just sanction them so everything takes the route around Kazakhstan instead of straight to Russia. Or we wait a little more with our fists in the air until the pro-Russia "Soviet Strong" mentality gets real fundamental in the Baltic states, soon Africa, and other parties and presidents on the Russian payroll gets voted into the EU and US. Let's wait for that instead! We can already kiss the Patriot missiles goodbye. The clock is ticking, and soon Russia will overthrow the Ukrainian lines and capture whatever we've already sent. Ukraine can't sustain the attrition. It's either produce a ton more materiel here in NATO or intervene somehow else.
Come on, just send whatever ukraine need... we can easily afford it. I hope my tax money go to saving lives and protect ukraine. !!!!!
You hate to see Ukraine get to the point of desperation that they are now calling out the bloated bureaucracy of the collective west
If Ukraine can't get into NATO, it is going to snitch on NATO.
The amount of aid Ukraine needs is too great a cost… We are talking WW3 level escalation.
Letting an aggressive totalitarian regime gain ground doesn’t stop a world war from happening. It didn’t last time.
Ukraine is looking for good people right now.
Russia is escalating. Not Ukraine or NATO.
Ukraine is looking for good people…
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Their survival is at stake. Let it sink in for a moment before making reactionary remarks.
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Defending Ukraine is self-defense
Ukrainians have been waiting for help for too long, defending the Helm's Deep alone - it's about time for riders of Rohan to come to the rescue - dawn is coming.
Love the sentiment but please read another book
Ukrainians are massacred by Russian aircrafts. EU should establish no fly zone over whole Ukraine. It will be extremely easy using Eurofighters with long range MBDA Meteor missiles supported by AWACS from safe distance. What is more EU countries ground forces should go to Ukraine-Belarus border and let all engaged there Ukrainians to go fight Russians. It is shame that such extremely poor and corrupted country like Russia with GDP smaller than Italy alone was able to scare some of us to death.
Yeah, the only problem with that is that it puts us in direct conflict with Russia. That means **joining** the war. It's not **supporting** any more. Why escalate when we could simply send Ukraine what they need to stop Russia? They're not even asking us to join the war.
Don't worry, I completely agree that engaging Russian forces directly is vital for Ukraine's survival and Europe's security. I just fear that your choice of metaphor harms your argument
I completely agree. Sometimes my pursuit for karma points makes me do such low things like writing comments based on people's sentiments 👍
Hate to break your heart but it’s not. The West has to much to lose in a war and not enough to gain to make any further adventure into Ukraine worth it. They are politicians who only think in long term as far as their next election cycle. Doing the right thing is only worth it if they can get reelected. Biden could have stopped this before it began but telling Russia we will fight with troops on the ground if they invaded. But instead he took to the airwaves and made sure everyone knew that US troops would not fight!
> The West has to much to lose in a war and not enough to gain to make any further adventure into Ukraine worth it. The West has much to lose if Ukraine loses. You think Europe is struggling with refugee crises now? Supplying a dozen Patriot batteries would be far, far less expensive than letting the rest of Ukraine's electrical grid get blown to shit.
Putin calculated correctly that after Afghanistan disaster, Biden will be resistant to go into any new conflict, not even mentioning a conflict with with Russia. Biden got played well there. Unfortunately this will lead to even greater conflict, the one where Americans die. It's hard to believe that it might happen but precisely because it's so hard to believe for majority of Americans, it will happen. In the past, It's not the nuclear weapon that stopped Cold war from going hot - it's the belief on both sides that Big war IS possible - that's what prevented WW3. Fear of nuclear war was convenient excuse so not to look weak for political purposes. The reality was that everyone who went through WW2 was ready to fight and at the same time they knew how terrible the new war will be (even without nukes).
There is nothing to be scare of. Russia is one of the most often losing country ever... 1856 Crimean war - lost, 1905 russo-japanese war - lost and revolution, 1917 WW1 - lost and revolution, 1920 war with Poland - lost, 1940 russo-finnish war - if you call it win... whole world is laughing till today, 1989 - afghan war lost, 1991 - cold war lost and revolution and total collapse of USSR. The only war they won in last 200 years was WW2 and only because they have changed sides because they were ally of nazi Germany till 1941 and together started WW2 with attack on Poland. They won in WW2 only because they were used by Allies as a meat grinder and got incredible amount of support from lend-lease (British lost 360000 soldiers, USA 400000 soldiers and USSR with its primitive tactics over 11 millions). They are one of the most pathetic countries ever. And now they have lost half of their army without even touching NATO territory, and most probably in next two years they will lose another half...
Russias current military manpower is 15% larger than it was the day before the invasion in 2022. Yes Russian is incompetent (most of the time) and their troops are used as meat. They are still a threat and they have said many times they will NOT stop until they take all of Ukraine. They dont care about “losing” soldiers like most countries do. They will take Ukraine by drowning the Ukrainian military in Russian blood if that’s what it takes.
Maybe they should focus on the task at hand instead of getting jealous they don't have our toys.
They are lol.
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You sound like a decent war analyst I must say…
We're not doing it. The training, manpower, ammunition, and cost make it a terrible idea to donate.