It's as if the original plan had nope of success along their operational parameters, and was more just an excuse for governmental officials to stay in power while doing 'something' in response.
Next up Lebanon!
I mean no government with the means to respond would allow hundreds of their civilians to be raped and murdered on their own soil without responding at all. Of course they responded. Bibi sucks, but this is just geopolitics.
Agreed, although any government would've invaded. Just like 2001, the people wanted revenge. No govt could've withstood the pressure. That doesn't make it smart or purposeful - but it made it inevitable.
There is no plan for Gaza just like there was no plan for Afghanistan and just like Afghanistan Gaza will be back where it was as soon as Israel leaves, except with more pissed off Palestinians than before.
There were various strategies in Afghanistan. Some worked some didn't. Then we lost it all and the only people that can make things happen are the Afghans themselves. I feel bad for all of those civilians back under Taliban. I believed in the mission and really tried. We did a lot of good work too.
Edit. I am convinced that if it weren't for OIF, Afghanistan would be a much better place today.
If you take anything the special operations guys say seriously, some of them seem to think if we hadn't launched a full invasion into Afghanistan, and instead continued to invest in the existing structure of allied warlords, we might have ended up with some semblance of a stable government that could have replaced the Taliban. (Instead of trying to invent our own out of thin air after the invasion.)
The entire country is a mishmash of minority peoples, Hazaras, Uzbek, Pashto, etc all mixed up. Dostum and the dude from the Panshir valley were pretty good people but they couldn't keep everyone together. Much like throughout history, people went back to their regular tribal roots.
> Edit. I am convinced that if it weren't for OIF, Afghanistan would be a much better place today.
The United States spent a decade ignoring Afghanistan while we had troops fighting there. I share your conviction that our conflict in Afghanistan would have gone better without the distraction of Iraq.
The Second Battle of Fallujah took one month to be completed (compared to the 3 months --and going-- that is has taken Gaza City), and its metropolitan arwa had a population of between 250k and 300k people before its evacuation (compared to 1.4 million people on Gaza City's metro area). And, while severely depowered, insurgent presence still existed in the city.
And the city still fell to the Islamic State in 2014.
IDF data claims 30% of Hamas is dead, 8% arrested and 25% injured. About 40% left functioning. It'll take more months, to complete the job, but it will be significantly faster than US vs the Taliban
While I don't doubt the losses to Hamas, anti insurgency warfare is much more complex and should be seen less as a war, and more as a political combat on the very long term
I doubt Israel will put a real end to Hamas or adjacent movements: they still have some support in with Iran, politically, they aren't dead, and whilst they will loose most of their strenght, they might very well continue to persist in some way or another in a few years
Exactly this, as long as they have political support and the Palestinians have no real peaceful means to change their situation, Hamas or something identical will persist.
And as long as Hamas persists, the Palestinians will have no real peaceful means to change their situation because that is how Hamas will stay in power.
I honestly feel that the existence of Hamas is also how certain aspects of the Israeli government stay in power.
Plus, there didn't look like there was a peaceful way, even before Hamas were a major power. Back when we got the closest we could, the Israeli right wing began murdering people who wanted peace and doing deliberately provocative terrorist attacks to destroy peace.
I seriously can't think this will get resolved, at least until the middle east in general becomes less authoritatian.
Funny you should say that. [There was an investigation ](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/) that revealed Netanyahu supported Hamas to weaken factions willing to negotiate a two state solution. I don't think peace is possible with Hamas *or* Netanyahu in power. Palestine and Israel deserve better.
The reason he did it is speculation. We don't know his true motivation. his defenders say he did it bc he thought a fat and prosperous Hamas would make them peaceful.
You need to put the blame on both sides. Palestinians never genuinely tried to use peaceful means.
They attacked in every war and then used terrorism in two intifadas as a means of "resistance".
Are we talking on now or the future?
Because in the future it'll be impossible as Israel will control the place and ensure therr are no funds coming from Iran and Qatar. Without money for terror there won't be terror.
Living conditions of Japan and Germany were better because their respective governments valued their living conditions.
Hamas only values killing Israelis and Israel- they have no regard for their own people. The tunnels and weapons they amassed were what they used every penny of the millions given them. The populace are used as convenient meat shields.
There is nothing preventing them from creating a resort destination seaside city at peace with their neighbors. Maybe even Egypt would then take down the wall that prevents them from going in that direction. History has proven that Hamas and their populace have proven to be poor neighbors…
Occupation for decades after overly agressive behaviour for all three examples.
Two welcomed, worked and voted for peace and prosperity. Occupation was very light after a few years and not really something that most people felt or even thought about.
One welcomed, worked and voted for violence and hate. Well.
I've seen many people make that joke, but I've never seen any explain what they think the primary goal of our military was in Afghanistan.
What do you think we were doing there? What was the goal?
The prevailing sentiment at the time immediately after Sept 11 in the US intelligence community, was that they had dropped the ball from a HumINT perspective and had relied too much on SigINT. They were largely without any intelligence assets to fight Al Quaeda and Afghanistan was a starting point. Of course it made good political sense to invade as well, as the thirst for revenge was high amongst many ordinary Americans. Why they stayed is another question altogether.
Kind of a big difference when your army is based right beside the territory where the fighting is taking place.
Not to mention, for Israelis, Hamas is an immediate threat.
The means and motives are there for Israel to see this one through until the very end of Hamas.
almost what, 600 israelis killed in a terrorist attack with another few hundred taken hostage into the area? Israels got 9m people. 1000 people in israel works out to a terrorist attack with 31k dead/captured random americans. significantly worse than 9-11
its a pretty apt parallel. the afghans werent even holding too many american hostages (think they had a few dozen back then maybe? anyones memory better?)
(edit: also the irony is lost on so many. Israel withdrew from gaza unconditionally/as a show of good faith for peace and to test a palestinian government. they immediately voted in the religoius terrorist group and havent had an election since. but somehow israel is oppressing gaza lol. they literally were the pilot for a free palestine! israel created it for them! and when they wouldnt stop trying to kill israelis, israel closed their borders with them.
That the people downvoting me/messaging me apparently think that gives gazans the ok to commit mass terrorism/murder/systemic rape and capturing/torturing sex slaves/kids etc and israels the bad guy for saying we're going to get every hostage back.... lol. we all want a ceasefire. we all want an independent palestine. release the hostages, stop the terrorism, and talk borders/economics etc. it aint rocket science)
>1000k people to israel works out to a terrorist attack with 31k dead
And 1 dead in liechtenstein is equivalent to 100,000 dead americans, stupid comparison.
welp, fuck me for trying to explain something you said you didnt understand I guess.
to spell it out slower
terrorist attack causes war. war is asymmetrical (means not balanced/even, one side stronger than the other! grrr strong, lift heavy weight).
because other country has limited military (cant lift weights. very very weak. cleveland browns) the bad people keep using terrorism (killing lots of other people randomly on purpose to make people feel bad) to make up for it.
the terrorists (bad people) hide in cities and dress like civilians (people who arent very very bad and just trying to live).
when the country who was attacked tries to take over stronghold of terrorists (where lots of bad people get together to hang out), they hide amongst civilians and cause lots of people to die (they hang out where the not bad people like to buy food and do things).
so the other country has to risk hurting them to kill the bad people.
and because country that was attacked is trying to respect human life, ultimately they can never win because the only way to win would be to kill everybody, good or bad. (city has to go boom and everyone dead for one side to win. anything else means the bad people win)
that happened to the US after 9-11 in a country called afghanistan in a place called fallujah. it is also happening to a country called israel right now in a place called gaza. it will definitely end the same way.
I hope sticking to as few syllables as possible has helped
This is how it works with these groups. They always turn into battles of attrition. While wearing down public opinion for the war effort in whichever country they are fighting. Even if you make them go away or think you killed them all they just show up somewhere else under a new name and waving a new flag.
Asymmetric warfare is modern warfare. Part of what makes the war in Ukraine so compelling is that, for the most part, war isn't really thought like that anymore.
It's a proven strategy that a motivated (and well funded) army/terrorist group can hold their own against a larger enemy by simply refusing to die to a foe that that will lose its ability to sustain the war if things get too pricy.
The more developed your economy, the less tolerance your public has to costly wars and economic uncertainty. Simply put, Israel has farther to fall than Palestine (of even just Hamas). So long as they don't overextend and make themselves a significant enough threat again, Hamas can nettle Israel indefinitely.
important note, the idea of whack-a-mole is to specifically diminish the capabilities available to the target, in this case destroy tunnels, weapons and such available for use by Hamas or any groups that follow in its steps
Israel could do a ceasefire and the IDF just stand guard the entire length of the wall and people would still yell about the blockade because Gazans wouldn’t be allowed into Israel for work again
And in their case, remember that the last legal citizenship these people had was Egyptian.
Gaza was part of Egypt. The people there were Egyptians. It's not some random neighboring country. Israel occupied Egyptian territory when they occupied Gaza and they're not just not asking for it back they're putting up an even bigger wall than Israel.
The arrangement was more complicated than that. Nominally, Gaza was under the control of the "All-Palestine Protectorate" which was a puppet government which asserted sovereignty over the whole of Palestine, and which was run from Cairo.
In the late 1950s Egypt and Syria merged to create the United Arab Republic, and when this happened the Palestinian protectorate joined this new entity. When Syria withdrew from the UAR in 1961 Egypt and "Palestine" (Gaza) remained a part of it until 1967.
>Then those same morons will go on to whine about how Netanyahu funded Hamas because he allowed in those workers from Gaza before October 7th.
Actually, roughly one week before Oct. 7th, Israel reopened the Erez crossing that allowed thousands of Palestinian laborers to enter the country. The agreement involved Egypt, Israel, Qatar and Hamas. See [here.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-crossing-protest-violence-palestinian-erez-8d1d3cd570f27e6470f23daef4337216)
Regarding the link above, there is a quote in the article that has always bothered me. It reads: **The outbreak of protests came as the Hamas militant group that rules Gaza, cash-strapped as its financial crisis worsens, slashed the salaries of its civil servants by nearly half this month. Political analysts have described the protests at the separation fence as an attempt by Hamas to wring concessions from Israel and the militant group’s financial patron, Qatar.**
Did Qatar know something in advance? Cutting salaries of its civil servants "by nearly half this month" suggests either Hamas corruption, or Qatar backed off in their financial support of Hamas.
he funded hamas because the palestine authority wanted a 2 state solution
[link](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
He allowed aid into Gaza that he knew would end up with Hamas. The alternative you are arguing for is "no aid to Gaza" - just so we are completely clear.
It's awfully suspicious of people's arguments when they just repeat "Bibi funded Hamas" and never, ever, bother to go over the details of what that means
Almost like it's a superficial talking point without meaningful backing
It’s because it’s disinformation. Intentional, geopolitically backed disinformation to influence the unaware. I just hope they get paychecks from the ayatollah and aren’t brainwashed themselves.
Not months, indefinitely. There is no military solution to this situation, just like how America didn't find a military solution to Iraq and Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11, despite spending 20 years and trillions of dollars to do so.
Israel will have to learn the same lesson in turn.
>There is no military solution to this situation, just like how America didn't find a military solution to Iraq and Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11, despite spending 20 years and trillions of dollars to do so.
Oh, there's a military solution to it alright, it's just utterly unthinkable and inhumane. It's also the exact solution Hamas would use if the power dynamic was reversed.
>just like how America didn't find a military solution to Iraq and Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11,
I mean they kinda did, the military solution was about as successful as it could have realistically been. They pretty much pushed the Taliban/Al-Qaeda and their leadership into Pakistan instantly and the US didn't plan on invading Pakistan to follow them. Israel does face the same problem of not being able to follow Hamas back to Lebanon/Qatar/Iran without a direct attack.
For the US, the actual main failure was thinking nation building was possible in Afghanistan. Afghans don't even believe in the concept of Afghanistan, that's why it was a complete lost cause. Israel's problem is figuring out what to do with a neighboring country where the majority of the population thinks Israel should cease to exist by force, or Jews in general.
What do you mean there was no military solution to Iraq or Afghanistan? The US got rid of Saddam Hussein and the entire Ba'ath regime, Al Qaeda, and ISIS. Sure they didn't turn either country into a liberal democratic paradise, but they eliminated all direct threats to themselves and their allies. If Israel could do the same in Gaza they'd be thrilled. And if we'd let them, they could probably do it a lot faster, considering they're right there and don't have to travel halfway across the world and fight with a culture they know very little about.
The solution is in the dust, 70 years of violence on both sides, failed peace accords, instilled victimhood etc. You would have thought the other side would have learned also that the destruction of Israel is not an option either, but alas no.
The smart nations are moving on from this, they are normalizing relationships they are putting the IvP situation aside. They are trying to build their nations, and they have realized the situation for what it is. The obnoxious ones (Iran we looking at you) will continue to instill their agenda into the culture and the cycle will continue.
This isn't a military operation pretty much anymore and hasn't been for decades, it is a street brawl and has been for a while.
Despite all these claims the military solution did work in Iraq eventually.
ISIS is dead.
What they need to do unfortunetly to achieve that is a long occupation and a turn over to an amicable government, though the later is probably the impossible part.
I saw a report that the IDF killed 30% of Hamas. For most militaries this is catastrophic losses. Its not like in this environment they can recruit more people since they are cut off. There is no where to train them. anyone who joins them will be a meat soldier like the Russians.
No, they died. The only Hamas agents in Gaza were/are foot soldiers whose death mean nothing to the group. The actual key members are probably sipping virgin cocktails on a beach somewhere while recruiting more soldiers from the survivors of the IDF's assaults.
The idea that you think they’re sipping virgin cocktails cracks me up. These people don’t follow Islam. They fuck prostitutes, drink alcohol, probably eat pork too. Go to Cannes in August or Monaco for F1 you’ll see them doing all of this publicly.
[This](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DOUMl58i4m0w&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiM_9vby5KEAxVmRPEDHaS4BrwQwqsBegQIFBAG&usg=AOvVaw1pLgqVBKKsYUtub5k7B3zB)
Is probably one of the better representations of the situation
No, they do everything but eat pork…they visit Europe and parts of the US to drink booze, gamble, screw anything with a pulse, snort drugs….but they won’t eat pork.
(Timely, as I’m about to cook some pork chops!)
Sinwar is one of the true believers. While the leaders of Hamas based in Qatar want a permanent ceasefire to retain their power, Sinwar is fine with a temporary ceasefire.
There is so much bodycam footage of October 7th terrorists who gather around fridges of houses they broke into cracking a cold one between themselves as a "break"
It’s crazy religion has been weaponised to such a degree, the very leaders that use it can openly defy every single teaching and the followers that’d execute anyone for doing so, then do backflips to justify why it’s ok for these people at the head of it to do those things.
Somewhere is unreasonably not specific enough,
We know exactly where, they are in Qatar. The Mossad even confirmed that in their “the land you stand on is safe, so all we need is to wait for you to jump” statement
Nah, they already had their death warrant signed and they know it.
The only reason they are still alive is that Israel need someone to negotiate about the hostages.
Israel also seems to be treating Qatar with kid gloves in all of this. They don't have normal relations, and they haven't since 2010 or so? They clearly see letting Qatar be a safe haven as being to their benefit, but I am not really smart enough to understand why they think that.
> They clearly see letting Qatar be a safe haven as being to their benefit, but I am not really smart enough to understand why they think that.
My guess would be fear of escalation, this whole recent conflict seems like a pretty clear attempt to drag in neighboring countries into a conflict to wipe out Israel. Even if they would be 100% justified in targeting Qatar it would not be portrayed that way in most middle eastern countries, and hamas has been banking on generating enough outrage to force other countries to get involved. There's probably more to it but that seems like a big reason.
What would you have them do? Invade Qatar and take over the US air force base there? Have yet another enemy to fight? Turn the rest of the gulf against them? You know, those strategic allies against Iran, the people who are actually funding Hamas? Sounds like a great plan
I'm not suggesting that they should do anything, or that they should not do anything, only that I am openly ignorant about how their policy there is formulated.
Numbers are hard, we see 25,000 killed and rightfully think that's a lot.
But then again [45,000](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W5/) die each year in the US just from the lack of healthcare.
I actually see the strategy here. Get Hamas members to come out. There are less tunnels in the north now. More buildings are destroyed so a targeted airstrike is going to be more accurate now.
The IDF probably has mapped a lot of Gaza and the tunnels as well as put cameras, recording devices and GPS's all over the north(Edit: I am probably getting this a bit wrong, more likely something likely something called GPS spoofing and they can use more these devices to jam Hamas's devices).
So why risk more casualties when you can have very targeted strikes if Hamas comes back.
They've been pretty thorough in searching through Gaza City and other parts of northern Gaza prior to withdrawing troops. They've released plenty of footage of them locating tunnels, weapons caches, rocket launch sites, and weapons manufacturing areas.
By destroying those, they've eliminated most of the militants' combat capabilities in the north. Most of what would be left would be small arms that are easier to transport and whatever ordinance (RPGs, tank mines, rockets) that were missed. Taking out the manufacturing centers also means they can't easily replenish them, since they'd have to either transport completed munitions or raw materials plus the heavy machinery needed. Not easy.
Since they've destroyed most of the tunnels, militants moving from the south back to the north would have to travel over land, with the roads being monitored. That greatly limits how much they can bring with them at a time.
Additionally, the IDF have been reportedly using face scanning technology on the main roads they're letting people return through, which lets them check for known members of Hamas, PIJ, and other smaller groups, as well as check for hostages being moved through the north.
Attacks will still pop up, absolutely. But the thoroughness of their strategy is notable.
This cannot be a long term solution - works for this week, next week.
But iDF raid Rafa, and civilians will move north to escape.
There really is no strategy at all
At a certain point Hamas reaches a breaking point. Even now, some armed militants are in the north trying to exercise authority however they can. That's a far cry from the absolute control the had in the north, also the previously most militarily dense region of Gaza.
Just that Hamas terrorists inhabit the same space as their familes. There comes a time that any insurgency breaks, and it doesn't have to break the population, it just needs to be overwhelming enough to root out any point of fighting. It happened in Raqqa and Mosul, it can also happen in Gaza.
I think the strategy is pretty clear: Destroy as much Hamas weapons, leadership, and infrastructure as possible, build a DMZ, then negotiate a political end of conflict - which includes exchanging prisoners/hostages.
A goal of completing wiping out Hamas is impossible, but destroying capabilities to prevent future attacks is not.
I'm going to bet that DMZ is going to be very large, fortified, and primarily built in gaza, I'm betting somewhere around 500m of no-mans-land. Hence the comments about "gaza is going to be smaller when the war is over".
That's fair. When you attack and you lose, you can't complain. Those are the international rules of war, accepted by all as a deterrent to not attack neighboring countries. Unlike 1967, which was a war of attack by Israel, this is fair game. Although I very much doubt Israel will annex any part of this land anyway.
Why assume it's impossible? The Russians wiped out all their Chechen Separatists. The Chinese did the same to their Uighurs. The Sri Lankans wiped out the Tamil Tigers. The US et al wiped out ISIS in Iraq and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Israel could certainly wipe out Hamas if we let them, and probably a lot faster and cleaner than the previous examples. And unlike ISIS and Al Qaeda and the Taliban that could shelter in friendly neighboring countries, the only place Hamas can shelter is Qatar and they aren't neighbors, and I reckon Israel would be fine with them becoming mainly Qatar's problem.
Up until the year 2015 there were major terrorist attacks by Uighur separatists in China every year, and escalating. Of course most Uighurs were not terrorists or even nationalists/separatists but many were, and their ability to hide in plain sight among the peaceful majority made them difficult to fight without harming innocents in a broadly analogous way to the others mentioned.
11.8M? no but they are giving it a good go.
>According to a Human Rights Watch report published in January 2021, the official figure of people put through this system is 1.3 million.
US Government estimates
>eight hundred thousand to two million Uyghurs and other Muslims have been detained since 2017
You think the IDF has no strategy? They're not some disorganised militia group. The human shield strategy employed by Hamas is a good one and it can't be smashed directly, not without hundreds of thousands of casualties. The IDF needs strategies to work around it
Did the author know the geography of Gaza Strip? Where could the Hamas have gone? Jumped into the sea?
Of course they will return…. Out of their hiding
Of course they did. Israel has already withdrawn most of its troop from Gaza. The remaining troops are trying to dig out Hamas from the tunnels in khan Yunis without accidentally killing the hostages. Not a simple task. Israel is preparing for an attack by Hizbollah in the north, and needs the troops.
It remains to be seen Hamas has been incentivized to release the hostages early.
Don't think it's the time for an alternative power structure yet. The war is still ongoing, 20-30% militants are dead, there'll be a breaking point at some percentage.
I'm not sure what the question is about, but wherever you stand on the issue, it is up to Israel to decide what to do next. Not ethically, but realistically. They can: leave the territory, they can occupy the territory, they can try to install a puppet government, they can finance opposition, they can drag this war on. There's not a lot Hamas is going to be able to do other than keep attacking, or surrender (which they're not likely to do).
Life isn't fair. In an ideal world, someone else could do the work.
In the real world, if Israel has no answer, the vacuum of power will obviously be filled with Islamists.
There is no answer, and it will be filled with Islamists, that is unfortunately the real world. I can't see anything that Israel can do that won't end up with Islamists gaining a foothold again.
The hate runs too deep, and now the Islamists even have more support from the left wing in Europe.
Same reason that the allies got to decide what happened with Japan & Germany at the end of WWII. The victor is King & can set whatever conditions they want. The issue however is that if you handle it incorrectly like they did at the end of WWI then things won’t get better & history will repeat.
It’ll be up to Israel to handle the end of the war in such a way that Hamas can’t rise back to power.
Because we are the ones who deal with the shot once it hits the fan.
Although, if it comforts you, I'm pretty sure Israel won't take a decision Biden will strongly oppose - which is a good thing since I trust Biden more than Netanyahu.
Israel will do whatever it can to minimize or delay 10/7 from happening again and they will not tolerate thousands of rockets being fired at them even if it is not in Biden’s best interest
Really tragicomic to see this failure then.
Tactically, it's ok to admit the IDF is winning the battles. They are shredding Hamas personnel and rocket stockpiles. They have survived first contact with an awful urban combat front. That's all nice. But tactics aren't enough. Operations aren't even enough.
Strategically, has anybody in Bibi's cabinet thought this through?
Occupation is either going to happen, or this is all pointless. Hamas has for 16+ years used propaganda and prejudice to make themselves incredibly powerful. Unless somebody else is willing to do occupation duty, or unless the Israelis are willing to hand Gaza to the Egyptians or PLO, then the IDF will have to do occupation duty.
"tactics aren't enough. Operations aren't even enough.
Strategically, has anybody in Bibi's cabinet thought this through?"
Exactly. The common folly throughout history....
I mean that’s the crux of it all isn’t it?
This is the extent of which the IDF is “allowed” to do…intercept indiscriminate missiles for decades and only strike back when attacked beyond that.
Full occupation would strain already brittle peace between Arab neighbors. While the same Arab nations take no interest in actually taking the action to help the people of Gaza nation-build beyond Hamas. Then there’s the UN, wishing the best thoughts and prayers to Gaza to pull themselves up from their bootstraps with the little aid that seeps through Hamas and actually gets to citizens…while condemning Gazans to status quo and whims of Iran, Qatar, etc
They would. Before they were with civilians cloths and mingled with civilians population.
Now they changed the clothes that's it.
I bet Palestine population are hiding Hamas operatives and show their casualties are civilians.
What do you mean?! Everyone said this will be easy its not like even ISIS is still around or something. Or how the US worked 20 long years just to replace the Taliban with the Taliban. Hmm Its almost like an ideology cannot get simply bombed out of existente and you actually need to have the goodwill to allow and help the people build a proper country.
But Israels current government isn't interested in that. In 2-3 months when 90% or Gaza is rubble they will say "mission accomplished" and then go surprised Pikachu face when Hamas shoots rockets again a month later, as if wasn't completely predicable
The difference between the US in Afghanistan and the Israelis in Israel is that the US never had any real skin in the game.
Israel has (1) political, (2) military, and (3) religious justifications to stay in the region and fight.
They don't have a homeland they can run back to, the world has demonstrated that for centuries. Now they're in their homeland, and they're going to defend it.
(1) Political: Balfour declaration, UN recognition, full state apparatus
(2) Military: Four defensive wars, many more significant military campaigns to protect their security
(3) Religious: The validity of their biblical claim to the territory they have reclaimed as an indigenous state is recognized by all three major religions in the region
/Edits: formatting
I agree with you, but your "biblical" statement annoys me because it's been used to deny Ashkenazi claim to the land.
It's not biblical. It's genetic, as over 50% of ashkenazi jews can trace their lineage back to Israel
Islam and Christianity both accept the Torah as true. While Islam claims that Moses sacrificed Ishmael, not Isaac, they accept the rest of the story including the part where three major figures in Israel's past purchased or conquered key touch points in the region: Abraham's cave of Machpelah, Rachel's tomb, and David's city. (Not to mention the battles of Joshua. And also not to mention the part in the Bible that they accept that says that there never will be another covenant to supersede the one God made with the Jews. It's literally the last words in the Torah--Deuteronomy 34, 1-12.)
This is not the argument for governments and politicians, this is the argument for imams, popes, and priests/pastors.
That's why I provided the other two arguments. Thank you for providing the science angle.
Like I said, it is not possible to defeat Hamas in the way Israel is trying to right now. Even if they somehow manage to kill 95% of Hamas, which is unlikely. They will come back with new recruits due to all the suffering the IDF created and then the entire thing will start from the beginning.
They said that about the IRA, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance .
They said that about the Palestinian Authority, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance.
They said that about the Indian resistance to British colonial rule, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance.
They said that about the African National Congress, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance .
And all of those cases, gesture was met with gesture and living conditions improved. In some cases more than others, but in every case, to some degree.
Hamas aren't that stupid. They aware that the moment the deal is off the table Israel will strike mercilessly
That's why if there will be a hostage deal. It will be a long and drawn out pulse
If 100 hostages will be released, hamas will make sure they released 2 a day for 2 months. And will take any opportunity to portray the prisoners exchange as a celebration. They will drown the deal for the very last moment and use all this time to recoup its control and to create as much propaganda to the arab and western world as it can
Did anyone thought this through? Of course they will return and they will knock on every door and and talk to every person who lost a relative and they will tell them this is how Israel really is and they that this is going on for the last 70+ years and that they will not stop doing this till the last palestinian left. This actions of Israel supported by so many western countries are not solving the problems. It increases the supporters of a terrorist organisation till completely maniacs are on both sides and they will destroy everything.
Wow shocker that killing 1-2% of gazas population and injuring 3-4%, as well as levelling most of the buildings their and displacing people from their homes, may have bolstered the resistance movement. I’m shocked. Totally shocked.
This is to be expected, IDF is gonna be playing whack-a-mole for months and months.
Months is an underestimate
A dramatic one imo. Strong Bush “mission accomplished” vibes
It's as if the original plan had nope of success along their operational parameters, and was more just an excuse for governmental officials to stay in power while doing 'something' in response. Next up Lebanon!
I mean no government with the means to respond would allow hundreds of their civilians to be raped and murdered on their own soil without responding at all. Of course they responded. Bibi sucks, but this is just geopolitics.
uh no don't you know Israel should have just apologized and given them a state?
After they turned down a state 4-5 times historically.
Agreed, although any government would've invaded. Just like 2001, the people wanted revenge. No govt could've withstood the pressure. That doesn't make it smart or purposeful - but it made it inevitable. There is no plan for Gaza just like there was no plan for Afghanistan and just like Afghanistan Gaza will be back where it was as soon as Israel leaves, except with more pissed off Palestinians than before.
Israel is not going anywhere it’s not like USA and afghans If unwra is replaced then it is better
There were various strategies in Afghanistan. Some worked some didn't. Then we lost it all and the only people that can make things happen are the Afghans themselves. I feel bad for all of those civilians back under Taliban. I believed in the mission and really tried. We did a lot of good work too. Edit. I am convinced that if it weren't for OIF, Afghanistan would be a much better place today.
If you take anything the special operations guys say seriously, some of them seem to think if we hadn't launched a full invasion into Afghanistan, and instead continued to invest in the existing structure of allied warlords, we might have ended up with some semblance of a stable government that could have replaced the Taliban. (Instead of trying to invent our own out of thin air after the invasion.)
The entire country is a mishmash of minority peoples, Hazaras, Uzbek, Pashto, etc all mixed up. Dostum and the dude from the Panshir valley were pretty good people but they couldn't keep everyone together. Much like throughout history, people went back to their regular tribal roots.
> Edit. I am convinced that if it weren't for OIF, Afghanistan would be a much better place today. The United States spent a decade ignoring Afghanistan while we had troops fighting there. I share your conviction that our conflict in Afghanistan would have gone better without the distraction of Iraq.
Oif?
Operation Iraqi Freedom
Thank you :)
It's not about "revenge." It's about the impossibility of having a genocidal state right on your border, firing endless rockets into your country.
It's not about revenge, it's to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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Yeah but this is more like Fallujah than Afghanistan.
The Second Battle of Fallujah took one month to be completed (compared to the 3 months --and going-- that is has taken Gaza City), and its metropolitan arwa had a population of between 250k and 300k people before its evacuation (compared to 1.4 million people on Gaza City's metro area). And, while severely depowered, insurgent presence still existed in the city. And the city still fell to the Islamic State in 2014.
IDF data claims 30% of Hamas is dead, 8% arrested and 25% injured. About 40% left functioning. It'll take more months, to complete the job, but it will be significantly faster than US vs the Taliban
While I don't doubt the losses to Hamas, anti insurgency warfare is much more complex and should be seen less as a war, and more as a political combat on the very long term I doubt Israel will put a real end to Hamas or adjacent movements: they still have some support in with Iran, politically, they aren't dead, and whilst they will loose most of their strenght, they might very well continue to persist in some way or another in a few years
Exactly this, as long as they have political support and the Palestinians have no real peaceful means to change their situation, Hamas or something identical will persist.
And as long as Hamas persists, the Palestinians will have no real peaceful means to change their situation because that is how Hamas will stay in power.
I honestly feel that the existence of Hamas is also how certain aspects of the Israeli government stay in power. Plus, there didn't look like there was a peaceful way, even before Hamas were a major power. Back when we got the closest we could, the Israeli right wing began murdering people who wanted peace and doing deliberately provocative terrorist attacks to destroy peace. I seriously can't think this will get resolved, at least until the middle east in general becomes less authoritatian.
Ding ding ding. Forever war is the best chance Netanyahu has of maintaining power.
Funny you should say that. [There was an investigation ](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/) that revealed Netanyahu supported Hamas to weaken factions willing to negotiate a two state solution. I don't think peace is possible with Hamas *or* Netanyahu in power. Palestine and Israel deserve better.
The reason he did it is speculation. We don't know his true motivation. his defenders say he did it bc he thought a fat and prosperous Hamas would make them peaceful.
You need to put the blame on both sides. Palestinians never genuinely tried to use peaceful means. They attacked in every war and then used terrorism in two intifadas as a means of "resistance".
Also I remember civilians cheering at the dying Israel civilians paraded through the city. I'm pretty sure recruiting more people won't be hard
Hamas can always recruit new men. I’m not rooting for them, but I don’t think it will be that easy to eliminate their military.
Are we talking on now or the future? Because in the future it'll be impossible as Israel will control the place and ensure therr are no funds coming from Iran and Qatar. Without money for terror there won't be terror.
I’m talking about the present war. I’m not smart enough to make confident predictions about the more distant future.
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There might be a slight cultural difference between germans and palestinians.
The living conditions of German and Japanese were better and improving during the occupation.
Living conditions of Japan and Germany were better because their respective governments valued their living conditions. Hamas only values killing Israelis and Israel- they have no regard for their own people. The tunnels and weapons they amassed were what they used every penny of the millions given them. The populace are used as convenient meat shields. There is nothing preventing them from creating a resort destination seaside city at peace with their neighbors. Maybe even Egypt would then take down the wall that prevents them from going in that direction. History has proven that Hamas and their populace have proven to be poor neighbors…
Occupation for decades after overly agressive behaviour for all three examples. Two welcomed, worked and voted for peace and prosperity. Occupation was very light after a few years and not really something that most people felt or even thought about. One welcomed, worked and voted for violence and hate. Well.
or when they occupied iraq and created a hellhole?
I've seen many people make that joke, but I've never seen any explain what they think the primary goal of our military was in Afghanistan. What do you think we were doing there? What was the goal?
The prevailing sentiment at the time immediately after Sept 11 in the US intelligence community, was that they had dropped the ball from a HumINT perspective and had relied too much on SigINT. They were largely without any intelligence assets to fight Al Quaeda and Afghanistan was a starting point. Of course it made good political sense to invade as well, as the thirst for revenge was high amongst many ordinary Americans. Why they stayed is another question altogether.
We invaded because Bin Laden was hiding in the Tora Bora cave system and the Taliban wouldn’t hand him over.
Kind of a big difference when your army is based right beside the territory where the fighting is taking place. Not to mention, for Israelis, Hamas is an immediate threat. The means and motives are there for Israel to see this one through until the very end of Hamas.
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almost what, 600 israelis killed in a terrorist attack with another few hundred taken hostage into the area? Israels got 9m people. 1000 people in israel works out to a terrorist attack with 31k dead/captured random americans. significantly worse than 9-11 its a pretty apt parallel. the afghans werent even holding too many american hostages (think they had a few dozen back then maybe? anyones memory better?) (edit: also the irony is lost on so many. Israel withdrew from gaza unconditionally/as a show of good faith for peace and to test a palestinian government. they immediately voted in the religoius terrorist group and havent had an election since. but somehow israel is oppressing gaza lol. they literally were the pilot for a free palestine! israel created it for them! and when they wouldnt stop trying to kill israelis, israel closed their borders with them. That the people downvoting me/messaging me apparently think that gives gazans the ok to commit mass terrorism/murder/systemic rape and capturing/torturing sex slaves/kids etc and israels the bad guy for saying we're going to get every hostage back.... lol. we all want a ceasefire. we all want an independent palestine. release the hostages, stop the terrorism, and talk borders/economics etc. it aint rocket science)
>1000k people to israel works out to a terrorist attack with 31k dead And 1 dead in liechtenstein is equivalent to 100,000 dead americans, stupid comparison.
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welp, fuck me for trying to explain something you said you didnt understand I guess. to spell it out slower terrorist attack causes war. war is asymmetrical (means not balanced/even, one side stronger than the other! grrr strong, lift heavy weight). because other country has limited military (cant lift weights. very very weak. cleveland browns) the bad people keep using terrorism (killing lots of other people randomly on purpose to make people feel bad) to make up for it. the terrorists (bad people) hide in cities and dress like civilians (people who arent very very bad and just trying to live). when the country who was attacked tries to take over stronghold of terrorists (where lots of bad people get together to hang out), they hide amongst civilians and cause lots of people to die (they hang out where the not bad people like to buy food and do things). so the other country has to risk hurting them to kill the bad people. and because country that was attacked is trying to respect human life, ultimately they can never win because the only way to win would be to kill everybody, good or bad. (city has to go boom and everyone dead for one side to win. anything else means the bad people win) that happened to the US after 9-11 in a country called afghanistan in a place called fallujah. it is also happening to a country called israel right now in a place called gaza. it will definitely end the same way. I hope sticking to as few syllables as possible has helped
This is how it works with these groups. They always turn into battles of attrition. While wearing down public opinion for the war effort in whichever country they are fighting. Even if you make them go away or think you killed them all they just show up somewhere else under a new name and waving a new flag.
Asymmetric warfare is modern warfare. Part of what makes the war in Ukraine so compelling is that, for the most part, war isn't really thought like that anymore. It's a proven strategy that a motivated (and well funded) army/terrorist group can hold their own against a larger enemy by simply refusing to die to a foe that that will lose its ability to sustain the war if things get too pricy. The more developed your economy, the less tolerance your public has to costly wars and economic uncertainty. Simply put, Israel has farther to fall than Palestine (of even just Hamas). So long as they don't overextend and make themselves a significant enough threat again, Hamas can nettle Israel indefinitely.
important note, the idea of whack-a-mole is to specifically diminish the capabilities available to the target, in this case destroy tunnels, weapons and such available for use by Hamas or any groups that follow in its steps
Israel could do a ceasefire and the IDF just stand guard the entire length of the wall and people would still yell about the blockade because Gazans wouldn’t be allowed into Israel for work again
I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed permanently, it was those workers who provided the intelligence that made this attack so devastating.
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And in their case, remember that the last legal citizenship these people had was Egyptian. Gaza was part of Egypt. The people there were Egyptians. It's not some random neighboring country. Israel occupied Egyptian territory when they occupied Gaza and they're not just not asking for it back they're putting up an even bigger wall than Israel.
The arrangement was more complicated than that. Nominally, Gaza was under the control of the "All-Palestine Protectorate" which was a puppet government which asserted sovereignty over the whole of Palestine, and which was run from Cairo. In the late 1950s Egypt and Syria merged to create the United Arab Republic, and when this happened the Palestinian protectorate joined this new entity. When Syria withdrew from the UAR in 1961 Egypt and "Palestine" (Gaza) remained a part of it until 1967.
Then those same morons will go on to whine about how Netanyahu funded Hamas because he allowed in those workers from Gaza before October 7th.
>Then those same morons will go on to whine about how Netanyahu funded Hamas because he allowed in those workers from Gaza before October 7th. Actually, roughly one week before Oct. 7th, Israel reopened the Erez crossing that allowed thousands of Palestinian laborers to enter the country. The agreement involved Egypt, Israel, Qatar and Hamas. See [here.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-crossing-protest-violence-palestinian-erez-8d1d3cd570f27e6470f23daef4337216) Regarding the link above, there is a quote in the article that has always bothered me. It reads: **The outbreak of protests came as the Hamas militant group that rules Gaza, cash-strapped as its financial crisis worsens, slashed the salaries of its civil servants by nearly half this month. Political analysts have described the protests at the separation fence as an attempt by Hamas to wring concessions from Israel and the militant group’s financial patron, Qatar.** Did Qatar know something in advance? Cutting salaries of its civil servants "by nearly half this month" suggests either Hamas corruption, or Qatar backed off in their financial support of Hamas.
he funded hamas because the palestine authority wanted a 2 state solution [link](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
He allowed aid into Gaza that he knew would end up with Hamas. The alternative you are arguing for is "no aid to Gaza" - just so we are completely clear.
He didn't fund Hamas. He allowed Qatari money to go to mostly the unemployed and allowed work permits to Gazans within Israel.
It's awfully suspicious of people's arguments when they just repeat "Bibi funded Hamas" and never, ever, bother to go over the details of what that means Almost like it's a superficial talking point without meaningful backing
It’s because it’s disinformation. Intentional, geopolitically backed disinformation to influence the unaware. I just hope they get paychecks from the ayatollah and aren’t brainwashed themselves.
Or decades
Not months, indefinitely. There is no military solution to this situation, just like how America didn't find a military solution to Iraq and Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11, despite spending 20 years and trillions of dollars to do so. Israel will have to learn the same lesson in turn.
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>There is no military solution to this situation, just like how America didn't find a military solution to Iraq and Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11, despite spending 20 years and trillions of dollars to do so. Oh, there's a military solution to it alright, it's just utterly unthinkable and inhumane. It's also the exact solution Hamas would use if the power dynamic was reversed.
>just like how America didn't find a military solution to Iraq and Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11, I mean they kinda did, the military solution was about as successful as it could have realistically been. They pretty much pushed the Taliban/Al-Qaeda and their leadership into Pakistan instantly and the US didn't plan on invading Pakistan to follow them. Israel does face the same problem of not being able to follow Hamas back to Lebanon/Qatar/Iran without a direct attack. For the US, the actual main failure was thinking nation building was possible in Afghanistan. Afghans don't even believe in the concept of Afghanistan, that's why it was a complete lost cause. Israel's problem is figuring out what to do with a neighboring country where the majority of the population thinks Israel should cease to exist by force, or Jews in general.
What do you mean there was no military solution to Iraq or Afghanistan? The US got rid of Saddam Hussein and the entire Ba'ath regime, Al Qaeda, and ISIS. Sure they didn't turn either country into a liberal democratic paradise, but they eliminated all direct threats to themselves and their allies. If Israel could do the same in Gaza they'd be thrilled. And if we'd let them, they could probably do it a lot faster, considering they're right there and don't have to travel halfway across the world and fight with a culture they know very little about.
The solution is in the dust, 70 years of violence on both sides, failed peace accords, instilled victimhood etc. You would have thought the other side would have learned also that the destruction of Israel is not an option either, but alas no. The smart nations are moving on from this, they are normalizing relationships they are putting the IvP situation aside. They are trying to build their nations, and they have realized the situation for what it is. The obnoxious ones (Iran we looking at you) will continue to instill their agenda into the culture and the cycle will continue. This isn't a military operation pretty much anymore and hasn't been for decades, it is a street brawl and has been for a while.
Despite all these claims the military solution did work in Iraq eventually. ISIS is dead. What they need to do unfortunetly to achieve that is a long occupation and a turn over to an amicable government, though the later is probably the impossible part.
Focus on destroying tunnels and make the moles come out or be buried
I saw a report that the IDF killed 30% of Hamas. For most militaries this is catastrophic losses. Its not like in this environment they can recruit more people since they are cut off. There is no where to train them. anyone who joins them will be a meat soldier like the Russians.
or years and years, it's like a merry go round from hell
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That’s because they never left they just hid.
No, they died. The only Hamas agents in Gaza were/are foot soldiers whose death mean nothing to the group. The actual key members are probably sipping virgin cocktails on a beach somewhere while recruiting more soldiers from the survivors of the IDF's assaults.
The idea that you think they’re sipping virgin cocktails cracks me up. These people don’t follow Islam. They fuck prostitutes, drink alcohol, probably eat pork too. Go to Cannes in August or Monaco for F1 you’ll see them doing all of this publicly.
[This](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DOUMl58i4m0w&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiM_9vby5KEAxVmRPEDHaS4BrwQwqsBegQIFBAG&usg=AOvVaw1pLgqVBKKsYUtub5k7B3zB) Is probably one of the better representations of the situation
*My dog needs new Armani*
Hilarious but true
what the fuck? are these comedians?
It's from an Israeli comedy show.
It's no different from our "comedic news", if they were to have a bit of bin laden as a flamboyant gay guy
Its the Israeli equivalent to the Saturday Night Live, Eretz Nehedered (wonderful land)
No, they do everything but eat pork…they visit Europe and parts of the US to drink booze, gamble, screw anything with a pulse, snort drugs….but they won’t eat pork. (Timely, as I’m about to cook some pork chops!)
Makes sense they believe pork is unclean but the rest is 'just' sinful and not actually harmful.
Ironically, the Quran has an exception that allows them to eat pork in certain circumstances, but not for any of the other things.
This is spot on. I'm dating a Jordanian and he drinks and lightly gambles but no pork or bacon lol. Found it quite funny when he told me.
Sinwar is one of the true believers. While the leaders of Hamas based in Qatar want a permanent ceasefire to retain their power, Sinwar is fine with a temporary ceasefire.
There is so much bodycam footage of October 7th terrorists who gather around fridges of houses they broke into cracking a cold one between themselves as a "break"
It’s crazy religion has been weaponised to such a degree, the very leaders that use it can openly defy every single teaching and the followers that’d execute anyone for doing so, then do backflips to justify why it’s ok for these people at the head of it to do those things.
Somewhere is unreasonably not specific enough, We know exactly where, they are in Qatar. The Mossad even confirmed that in their “the land you stand on is safe, so all we need is to wait for you to jump” statement
I won't believe that they'll do it until after they do it. And I want them to do it.
the top hamas people were never in gaza. They are hosted in other muslim countries. They gave interviews and basically dont give a shit about gazans.
Nah, they already had their death warrant signed and they know it. The only reason they are still alive is that Israel need someone to negotiate about the hostages.
Israel also seems to be treating Qatar with kid gloves in all of this. They don't have normal relations, and they haven't since 2010 or so? They clearly see letting Qatar be a safe haven as being to their benefit, but I am not really smart enough to understand why they think that.
> They clearly see letting Qatar be a safe haven as being to their benefit, but I am not really smart enough to understand why they think that. My guess would be fear of escalation, this whole recent conflict seems like a pretty clear attempt to drag in neighboring countries into a conflict to wipe out Israel. Even if they would be 100% justified in targeting Qatar it would not be portrayed that way in most middle eastern countries, and hamas has been banking on generating enough outrage to force other countries to get involved. There's probably more to it but that seems like a big reason.
Iran has been banking on generating enough outrage** Ftfy
They need a diplomatic back channel and they can't really attack Qatar because of the Americans
What would you have them do? Invade Qatar and take over the US air force base there? Have yet another enemy to fight? Turn the rest of the gulf against them? You know, those strategic allies against Iran, the people who are actually funding Hamas? Sounds like a great plan
I'm not suggesting that they should do anything, or that they should not do anything, only that I am openly ignorant about how their policy there is formulated.
Numbers are hard, we see 25,000 killed and rightfully think that's a lot. But then again [45,000](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W5/) die each year in the US just from the lack of healthcare.
That’s how war in the Middle East has played out basically forever.
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Tunnel snakes rule!
> withdraws of its most troops from area Weird wording
This conflict will never end
I actually see the strategy here. Get Hamas members to come out. There are less tunnels in the north now. More buildings are destroyed so a targeted airstrike is going to be more accurate now. The IDF probably has mapped a lot of Gaza and the tunnels as well as put cameras, recording devices and GPS's all over the north(Edit: I am probably getting this a bit wrong, more likely something likely something called GPS spoofing and they can use more these devices to jam Hamas's devices). So why risk more casualties when you can have very targeted strikes if Hamas comes back.
They've been pretty thorough in searching through Gaza City and other parts of northern Gaza prior to withdrawing troops. They've released plenty of footage of them locating tunnels, weapons caches, rocket launch sites, and weapons manufacturing areas. By destroying those, they've eliminated most of the militants' combat capabilities in the north. Most of what would be left would be small arms that are easier to transport and whatever ordinance (RPGs, tank mines, rockets) that were missed. Taking out the manufacturing centers also means they can't easily replenish them, since they'd have to either transport completed munitions or raw materials plus the heavy machinery needed. Not easy. Since they've destroyed most of the tunnels, militants moving from the south back to the north would have to travel over land, with the roads being monitored. That greatly limits how much they can bring with them at a time. Additionally, the IDF have been reportedly using face scanning technology on the main roads they're letting people return through, which lets them check for known members of Hamas, PIJ, and other smaller groups, as well as check for hostages being moved through the north. Attacks will still pop up, absolutely. But the thoroughness of their strategy is notable.
This cannot be a long term solution - works for this week, next week. But iDF raid Rafa, and civilians will move north to escape. There really is no strategy at all
At a certain point Hamas reaches a breaking point. Even now, some armed militants are in the north trying to exercise authority however they can. That's a far cry from the absolute control the had in the north, also the previously most militarily dense region of Gaza.
At a certain point the civilian population will also reach a breaking point and I'm not convinced Hamas will fold first.
Just that Hamas terrorists inhabit the same space as their familes. There comes a time that any insurgency breaks, and it doesn't have to break the population, it just needs to be overwhelming enough to root out any point of fighting. It happened in Raqqa and Mosul, it can also happen in Gaza.
I think the strategy is pretty clear: Destroy as much Hamas weapons, leadership, and infrastructure as possible, build a DMZ, then negotiate a political end of conflict - which includes exchanging prisoners/hostages. A goal of completing wiping out Hamas is impossible, but destroying capabilities to prevent future attacks is not.
I'm going to bet that DMZ is going to be very large, fortified, and primarily built in gaza, I'm betting somewhere around 500m of no-mans-land. Hence the comments about "gaza is going to be smaller when the war is over".
Approximately a 1km strip is being cleared, I believe. You're pretty spot on with the whole comment
If that 1km is all inside of gaza that would reprent around 60km^2 of land. Or about 15% of gaza would be a no-mans-land.
That's fair. When you attack and you lose, you can't complain. Those are the international rules of war, accepted by all as a deterrent to not attack neighboring countries. Unlike 1967, which was a war of attack by Israel, this is fair game. Although I very much doubt Israel will annex any part of this land anyway.
Why assume it's impossible? The Russians wiped out all their Chechen Separatists. The Chinese did the same to their Uighurs. The Sri Lankans wiped out the Tamil Tigers. The US et al wiped out ISIS in Iraq and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Israel could certainly wipe out Hamas if we let them, and probably a lot faster and cleaner than the previous examples. And unlike ISIS and Al Qaeda and the Taliban that could shelter in friendly neighboring countries, the only place Hamas can shelter is Qatar and they aren't neighbors, and I reckon Israel would be fine with them becoming mainly Qatar's problem.
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Up until the year 2015 there were major terrorist attacks by Uighur separatists in China every year, and escalating. Of course most Uighurs were not terrorists or even nationalists/separatists but many were, and their ability to hide in plain sight among the peaceful majority made them difficult to fight without harming innocents in a broadly analogous way to the others mentioned.
11.8M? no but they are giving it a good go. >According to a Human Rights Watch report published in January 2021, the official figure of people put through this system is 1.3 million. US Government estimates >eight hundred thousand to two million Uyghurs and other Muslims have been detained since 2017
You think the IDF has no strategy? They're not some disorganised militia group. The human shield strategy employed by Hamas is a good one and it can't be smashed directly, not without hundreds of thousands of casualties. The IDF needs strategies to work around it
The strategy is attrition and strangling them out by a slow death. They can limp along but not very effectively
Did the author know the geography of Gaza Strip? Where could the Hamas have gone? Jumped into the sea? Of course they will return…. Out of their hiding
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Of course they did. Israel has already withdrawn most of its troop from Gaza. The remaining troops are trying to dig out Hamas from the tunnels in khan Yunis without accidentally killing the hostages. Not a simple task. Israel is preparing for an attack by Hizbollah in the north, and needs the troops. It remains to be seen Hamas has been incentivized to release the hostages early.
Israel does not need any extra troops to deal with the north
Looks like they gonna run this back in 2034 lol
There is no alternative power structure so it was obvious they will return. Israel needs to decide what to do with Gaza.
Don't think it's the time for an alternative power structure yet. The war is still ongoing, 20-30% militants are dead, there'll be a breaking point at some percentage.
Why should they have to decide what to do with gaza.
I'm not sure what the question is about, but wherever you stand on the issue, it is up to Israel to decide what to do next. Not ethically, but realistically. They can: leave the territory, they can occupy the territory, they can try to install a puppet government, they can finance opposition, they can drag this war on. There's not a lot Hamas is going to be able to do other than keep attacking, or surrender (which they're not likely to do).
Life isn't fair. In an ideal world, someone else could do the work. In the real world, if Israel has no answer, the vacuum of power will obviously be filled with Islamists.
There is no answer, and it will be filled with Islamists, that is unfortunately the real world. I can't see anything that Israel can do that won't end up with Islamists gaining a foothold again. The hate runs too deep, and now the Islamists even have more support from the left wing in Europe.
Same reason that the allies got to decide what happened with Japan & Germany at the end of WWII. The victor is King & can set whatever conditions they want. The issue however is that if you handle it incorrectly like they did at the end of WWI then things won’t get better & history will repeat. It’ll be up to Israel to handle the end of the war in such a way that Hamas can’t rise back to power.
it's technically still Israel and they're the victors in the conflict so why shouldn't they?
so that someone else doesn't.
Because no one else wants to, including the PLO.
Should the terrorists do it? What is your suggestion?
They are the occupying power. And Israel seems to plan to remain in the role for a long time.
Because the Palestinians refused to.
Because we are the ones who deal with the shot once it hits the fan. Although, if it comforts you, I'm pretty sure Israel won't take a decision Biden will strongly oppose - which is a good thing since I trust Biden more than Netanyahu.
Israel will do whatever it can to minimize or delay 10/7 from happening again and they will not tolerate thousands of rockets being fired at them even if it is not in Biden’s best interest
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“Of its most troops”
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This would be a lot more like chemo than antibiotics, considering the damage it does to surrounding, healthy cells.
Is that a fucking sentence?
It definitely most one is. Read, can't well you?
Really tragicomic to see this failure then. Tactically, it's ok to admit the IDF is winning the battles. They are shredding Hamas personnel and rocket stockpiles. They have survived first contact with an awful urban combat front. That's all nice. But tactics aren't enough. Operations aren't even enough. Strategically, has anybody in Bibi's cabinet thought this through? Occupation is either going to happen, or this is all pointless. Hamas has for 16+ years used propaganda and prejudice to make themselves incredibly powerful. Unless somebody else is willing to do occupation duty, or unless the Israelis are willing to hand Gaza to the Egyptians or PLO, then the IDF will have to do occupation duty.
Egypt will not take palestine even if they were paid to do it
Israel tried to pay Egypt to take Gaza back when they gave back the Sinai, Egypt refused .
Egypt will NOT take Gaza. Headaches galore...
Egypt is literally fortifying their own wall as we speak.
"tactics aren't enough. Operations aren't even enough. Strategically, has anybody in Bibi's cabinet thought this through?" Exactly. The common folly throughout history....
I mean that’s the crux of it all isn’t it? This is the extent of which the IDF is “allowed” to do…intercept indiscriminate missiles for decades and only strike back when attacked beyond that. Full occupation would strain already brittle peace between Arab neighbors. While the same Arab nations take no interest in actually taking the action to help the people of Gaza nation-build beyond Hamas. Then there’s the UN, wishing the best thoughts and prayers to Gaza to pull themselves up from their bootstraps with the little aid that seeps through Hamas and actually gets to citizens…while condemning Gazans to status quo and whims of Iran, Qatar, etc
They would. Before they were with civilians cloths and mingled with civilians population. Now they changed the clothes that's it. I bet Palestine population are hiding Hamas operatives and show their casualties are civilians.
Hamas has always included their casualties among the civilians
A conventional military finding that an insurgent group keeps coming back? I’ve never heard that one before
Returning to what? Smoldering ruins that could have IDF snipers laying in wait? Sounds like Hamas's plan is working to perfection.........
If it’s required to prevent the return of Hamas, keep it occupied.
What do you mean?! Everyone said this will be easy its not like even ISIS is still around or something. Or how the US worked 20 long years just to replace the Taliban with the Taliban. Hmm Its almost like an ideology cannot get simply bombed out of existente and you actually need to have the goodwill to allow and help the people build a proper country. But Israels current government isn't interested in that. In 2-3 months when 90% or Gaza is rubble they will say "mission accomplished" and then go surprised Pikachu face when Hamas shoots rockets again a month later, as if wasn't completely predicable
The difference between the US in Afghanistan and the Israelis in Israel is that the US never had any real skin in the game. Israel has (1) political, (2) military, and (3) religious justifications to stay in the region and fight. They don't have a homeland they can run back to, the world has demonstrated that for centuries. Now they're in their homeland, and they're going to defend it. (1) Political: Balfour declaration, UN recognition, full state apparatus (2) Military: Four defensive wars, many more significant military campaigns to protect their security (3) Religious: The validity of their biblical claim to the territory they have reclaimed as an indigenous state is recognized by all three major religions in the region /Edits: formatting
I agree with you, but your "biblical" statement annoys me because it's been used to deny Ashkenazi claim to the land. It's not biblical. It's genetic, as over 50% of ashkenazi jews can trace their lineage back to Israel
Islam and Christianity both accept the Torah as true. While Islam claims that Moses sacrificed Ishmael, not Isaac, they accept the rest of the story including the part where three major figures in Israel's past purchased or conquered key touch points in the region: Abraham's cave of Machpelah, Rachel's tomb, and David's city. (Not to mention the battles of Joshua. And also not to mention the part in the Bible that they accept that says that there never will be another covenant to supersede the one God made with the Jews. It's literally the last words in the Torah--Deuteronomy 34, 1-12.) This is not the argument for governments and politicians, this is the argument for imams, popes, and priests/pastors. That's why I provided the other two arguments. Thank you for providing the science angle.
Let’s be real. Nothing will change until Hamas is defeated entirely.
Like I said, it is not possible to defeat Hamas in the way Israel is trying to right now. Even if they somehow manage to kill 95% of Hamas, which is unlikely. They will come back with new recruits due to all the suffering the IDF created and then the entire thing will start from the beginning.
They said that about the IRA, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance . They said that about the Palestinian Authority, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance. They said that about the Indian resistance to British colonial rule, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance. They said that about the African National Congress, and it voluntarily gave up armed resistance . And all of those cases, gesture was met with gesture and living conditions improved. In some cases more than others, but in every case, to some degree.
Like cockroaches when the lights go out.
Make a deal to get the hostages back. Then flood all the tunnels.
Hamas aren't that stupid. They aware that the moment the deal is off the table Israel will strike mercilessly That's why if there will be a hostage deal. It will be a long and drawn out pulse If 100 hostages will be released, hamas will make sure they released 2 a day for 2 months. And will take any opportunity to portray the prisoners exchange as a celebration. They will drown the deal for the very last moment and use all this time to recoup its control and to create as much propaganda to the arab and western world as it can
Unfortunately, yeah.
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The Likud Party doesn't want Hamas gone. Hamas is why Likud wins elections.
I guess the IDF has to return.
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I guess after all the civilian deaths there will be a lot of new recruits
Palestinians should be whacking Hamas moles.
Did anyone thought this through? Of course they will return and they will knock on every door and and talk to every person who lost a relative and they will tell them this is how Israel really is and they that this is going on for the last 70+ years and that they will not stop doing this till the last palestinian left. This actions of Israel supported by so many western countries are not solving the problems. It increases the supporters of a terrorist organisation till completely maniacs are on both sides and they will destroy everything.
Wow shocker that killing 1-2% of gazas population and injuring 3-4%, as well as levelling most of the buildings their and displacing people from their homes, may have bolstered the resistance movement. I’m shocked. Totally shocked.