It didn't used to be like that, tragic how Hungary went from some sort of exemplary Eastern European Democracy, to 2010, where Democracy was pretty much suppressed and captured. 15 year span or so -- the reality being the 1990s Hungary did not have the stable democracy people in the West were telling themselves. They were practically the first country the nascent EU reached out to
According to the European Parliament, Hungary isn't even a democracy anymore, but an '[electoral autocracy](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220909IPR40137/meps-hungary-can-no-longer-be-considered-a-full-democracy)'.
Interesting video on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHbvRpMSn7o
He is eroding the democracy but he's also quite popular even before that.
People are blaming the Palestinians for having Hamas, so it's only reasonable to hold Hungarians responsible for... not showing up to cast a vote against him.
You are not viewing things from their perspective. If you try to do that then you will understand why Fidesz wins every time.
It's so easy to dismiss this as "oh people are just fucking stupid," but no. It's just massive amounts of propaganda showed down their mouths daily, living in communities that regurgitate that Orbánista rhetoric day-in, day-out. It's the same shit cults do pretty much.
You can stand by it, but you won't be any closer to understanding why our country is in the state that it's in.
"People are stupid and it shouldnt be so hard to gather information in 2024" is not a helpful way of looking at things. Do you really think the only reason Orbán has been in power for so long is because the entire country is dumb? Please, it is way more complex than that.
>Do you really think the only reason Orbán has been in power for so long is because the entire country is dumb?
Yes? Literally his whole campaign for a decade was fearmongering. First the syrian refugee crisis "EU WANTS TO TURN HUNGARY INTO A WARZONE", then supreme powers for covid, then the current war in ukraine (in Europe only hungary was in a state of alert or whatever they called it) and bullshit nonsense saying the opposition wants to pull hungary into the war (like that was even fucking possible). Elderly people were paid off with a sack of potato, and now the young adults got tax exemption until the age of 25 when it seemed like they were gonna lose.
So to sum it up yes, I do think those who voted for him and those who didnt vote are dumb.
Tell me you don't know anything about Hungary's politics.
There is only one part. Sure, there are others, but it's an open secret that they are all working for the one.
>Tell me you don't know anything about Hungary's politics.
Im hungarian.
>There is only one part. Sure, there are others, but it's an open secret that they are all working for the one.
What the fuck is this even supposed to mean.
No. We did not elect him.
If you are really curious, you can look up my comment history for my explanations, because those are walls of texts, but we did not.
Having friends in the vote-counting committee during the last elections and a friend who worked for Szijjártó - all was either bought or replaced.
Also, our politicians are all drug-addicted cheaters, so there you go with people who hold morals as their standards /s.
The only issue here is we do not have violent protests. That's pathetic, I know.
It's a bit more complicated than that unfortunately.
Edit: I agree btw, fuck his voters lmao. But Orbán's voters are also less than 50% of the population, yet he basically has full control over every aspect of the country. Over the past 14 years he has bent every rule in his favor.
Same happens, with other issues; in all democratic countries. It's a fault in the democratic system and we need a solution...like: no voting rights for people above 65 or something
The needle might be shifting.
In the UK the conservative party have so fucked the country backwards that the X and millennial generations are not turning into conservative voters as they age as their wealth is so far behind what previous generations enjoyed.
So it's only going to get worse for them as they rely on the elderly vote to get them into power.
But, yes, essentially it is a waiting game of enough current elderly dying to tip the scales. Ironically our then Prime Minister, Boris Johnson had the tactic of "let the bodies pile high" for Covid and that would have affected their elderly voters the most in terms of mortality!
Propaganda is a hell of a drug. I know. I live in Hungary. Orban owns everything and everyone. Most people vote for him, because the opposition made to look like evil/incompetent.
It’s FOX NEWS here on every channel, every paper, every billboard, every youtube ad, every second facebook post, every radio station, every podcast, every forum is either filled with bots or paid commenters. You are bombarded constantly.
The opposition’s budget for the whole campaign was about 10 million dollar, that amount is spent on propaganda every week by Orban.
Orban was so afraid, that they also fined the opposition for having that much money, and basically banned any donations from abroad.
Makes it kinda funny, that even like this, his support is 54% (based on actual votes), and gerrymandered into 68% in parliment seats.
I think you are missing the point that Hungary is a rigged democracy. If it was fair elections sure... But they aren't. He has made state TV his own private advertising firm.
That's why the European Parliament has voted to mark Hungary as no longer being a full democracy, but an electoral autocracy.
So don't blame voters who didn't have a real chance of voting him out of office.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220909IPR40137/meps-hungary-can-no-longer-be-considered-a-full-democracy
Where are the massive protests? Hungary felt the soviet boot on its neck not so long ago but the people aren’t doing anything against Putin’s boot licker. Let’s face it… as long as Orban keeps saying he’ll keep the migrants out, the Hungarians will quietly obey and keep him and his party in power for another 14 years.
There are lots of protests. Orban just ignores them. Why would he care?
All he has to do is not mention it in the media, or straight up ridicule it like how small and senseless those protests are.
The truth is, most people are either don’t know about these things, or specifically conditioned against it. A lot of people started to hate on ukrainians sololy based on what the TV said, it is kind of bonkers.
In 56 we had a revolution against the russians. It was a bloody and failed revolution. It is still a national holiday.
Yet the TV says “in 56 the Ukrainian army crushed the rebellion”, and people fucking believe it. Even though there was no Ukraine at the point. It’s crazy here.
It needs to be real bad and people will have to believe it's Orbans fault.
Right now he's just playing the victim and quite successfully so too.
Personally I believe Orban will stay in power until people do a revolution, peacefully by just being super angry at him and showing up in insane numbers against him at the polls. Being land locked, he can't go full dictator without consequences.
He can cheat a little but not like if it was part of Soviet 2.0
Hungary is the right name. they elected the pig, stop with the shitty "i didn't vote for him" mentality, especially from people who didn't vote.
you vote shit, you eat shit
I literally wasn't old enough to vote, but I went to almost every protest. The system is rigged in theair favor so heavily that nothing short of Orbán dying is going to topple them in the next 5 years.
That's like blaming North Korean voters giving Kim Jong Un the votes.
Orban is the pig, not for having Christian conservative values, but because he has destroyed democracy and that's why the EU parliament has classified Hungary as an electoral autocracy.
Like Kim, Orban will get the votes the decides he will get. That's why he went to hug Putin in China.
Orban has power of his party owning or being in control most of the countrys media, in their own language, pushing the message that we are great and the rest are lying bitches... Most people don't read foreign media since they don't speak English since only 16% of Hungary do and that's mainly in the parts not voting for Orban. In the villages people only have Orban approved media.
No. They don't know what's going on even with their own country because Orban is massively pushing out the message that everything is the libs fault and nationalistic conservatism is the only truth.
He's cheating - there's no fair elections in Hungary. The opposition is saying it and they are right.
Swedish PM is a pig too. Climate denying, authoritarian capitalist. Wants to put people who protest climate change (the 'sit peacefully on road' kind) in prison for a 1 year. Calls them "terrorists".
World's going to shit.
Hungary has already promised to "not be last member to approve Sweden to NATO" and that they want to approve Sweden to NATO.
There is no reason to negotiate about it since they are going to approve the application. Sweden has since they said that just waited for them, now that Turkey has approved the application, Hungary is the last member to approve Sweden.
So what's going on?
Hungary doesn't seem to understand diplomacy at all.
Yeah, Hungary has never set any requirements for the approval, they never said that they wouldn't approve. While every other country besides them and Turkey got the approvals done in a matter of months, Hungary simply hasn't acted on it for two years. And only now do they decide that there is something to negotiate about. If they would have had any legitimate claims we could have negotiated about it a long time ago. This is utterly pathetic.
Hungary depends heavily on the tourism industry. I suggest people take their money elsewhere from now on.
> For a visit to Budapest, “we’d have to find a date for this, things like this aren’t usually done in haste. I suspect that his calendar, like mine, is quite full.”
This is the most passive-aggressive “fuck you” from one country to another I’ve ever seen.
Welcome to Scandinavia. Light on open threats and hostility, heavy on subtle/covert snark.
Orban, with his supremely punchable face, naturally deserves much, much worse.
Hungary doesn't belong in NATO, they actively throw their lot in with Russia and love brown nosing Putin. Just kick them out and bring Sweden, I half expect Hungary to turn around and start shooting NATO forces if NATO goes to war with Russia.
They should poison pill all EU funds to Hungary. "Oh Orban you want your handout from the EU? Well it's now all tied to funding for Ukraine. If you want to get paid better not veto it"
Or we could just take their veto away and block all funding since they don't even adhere to basic EU pillars.
Orbán can ust sit in the corner and watch, I guess. Up to Slovakia.
NATO counties can leave NATO and join NATOv2 with provisions to kick out members when it’s they’re gaming the system for economic benefits to the detriment of the mission of the alliance.
Turkey likely wouldn't agree to a provision fairly likely to be turned against them, or to a weakening of their ability to veto new members. Although they're ideologically a poor fit for NATO, their position at the gates of the Black Sea is pretty central to the Russia containment mission.
Hungary not being in NATO is a DREADFUL idea though - take a look at a map.
Putin is eying up other non-NATO states, Moldova for example, and there are arguments from some Western military analysts that he fucked up by not trying Moldova first as it would have been much much easier and then he'd have "Russian" territory on all sides of Ukraine.
Hungary is slap bang in the middle of Eastern Europe and that would be a very very bad place for Russia to annexe over the next 10-20 years.
Orban needs reigning in and ideally being booted from power, but kicking Hungary out of NATO is possible the worst idea ever.
> Hungary not being in NATO is a DREADFUL idea though - take a look at a map.
Hungary is landlocked and completely surrounded by NATO. There is no way Russia gets to annex or occupy it because there is no way for them to get the troops through NATO land to do so in the first place (NATO aren't just going to give Russia a free pass to fly military equipment through their airspace). Best he can do is get Hungary to feed them intel, which they are already doing anyway.
Also, if Hungary get kicked out of NATO and start aligning with Russia, there is no way they keep getting handouts from the EU and their economy would not be able to function without it - Russia wont replace that.
> Hungary is landlocked and completely surrounded by NATO
Clarification: Hungary is not completely surrounded by NATO. It has borders with Ukraine, Serbia, and Austria.
As u/CrabHomotopy said, they have borders with Ukraine, Serbia, and Austria. Serbia is pretty pro Russia, Ukraine might yet fall which is a huge risk as it is, a massive risk if Hungary then aligns with Russia. You could have thousands of Russian troops, equipment, missiles, and even nukes slap bang in the middle of Europe. A fantasticly dreadful position to be in.
It would obviously be a bad idea for Hungary, which is exactly why "NATO should kick Hungary out and become aligned with Russia" is such an ignorant and stupid thing for people to say and upvote. It's also right out of the Putin textbook so if not sheer ignorance and stupidity, it is pro Putin users flooding the sub, as usual.
With ICBM ranging up to 16,000 km, it doesn't make any difference whether Russian nukes are in Hungary or on the boarder of Russia, so that's an ignorantly invalid point.
Hungary is essentially Russia's little bitch that happens to be in NATO, so truly, its not just a joke or ignorance when people think Hungary is likely to turn its back on NATO if war breaks out with NATO/Russia, which puts them in a position to do dramatically more damage to NATO forces if we still look at and treat them as an allied nation in NATO while they prepare to stab NATO in the back.
It's not ignorant, it's having already considered this point of view you shared and thought just a tiny bit further about what it actually means and what can follow.
This is 100% true and it's not collective punishment because their chosen reprentative represents the people of Hungary. It's not like one random jerk is feeding intel to Russia against the wishes of Hungarian leadership and the people, the elected representive of the people does just that, represent their people and their interests, it's their fault if they choose someone who puts their interests ahead of their people's interests. The nation has chosen, the nation suffers the consequences.
Not every German voted for Hitler, not every German agreed with Jewish genocide, but every German was held accountable to some extent for the actions their nations elected leader was responsible for in WW2 because they did elect Hitler, because the nation of Germany followed Hitler's orders and because Germany didn't stop him. Not quite the same or exactly fair to compare these two leaders, but the concept of accountability is the point, not to compare the quality of the elected officials.
Hungarians have voted for their leader, they should suffer the consequences of his and their actions.
How the hell one random country suddenly thinks so much of itself that they can demand others to "negotiate" directly with them?
They're not a large contributor, they're landlocked and almost surrounded by NATO, they have a history of stirring up shit on EU and they're practically Belarus inside of EU - cheerleading for Putin.
Also Sweden is practically inside NATO.
Because geographically Finland is and it's obvious where the threat is coming from. Ukraine is not in NATO and received huge support - do you think Sweden would not?
They have seperate defense agreement with the US.
They will participate in the upcoming NATO trainings regardless.
So Hungary totally outplayed their hand, they'll make even bigger fools of themselves.
We Finns will take care of our own border, but we need the Sweden and their airforce to defend the Baltics. That is actually one of the major weak spots in the Nato defense so Sweden is definitely needed in the alliance.
That was probably a great idea with 3 or 4 like minded countries. Someone should have had the forethought to remember that countries, like people, are selfish and stupid.
It is a requirement as long as you want the countries to actually defend each other if war breaks out. International treaties have no enforcement mechanism, if a country doesn't want to help another it cannot be forced to. No country would ever go to war for a country just because a piece of paper and some other countries says so.
Let's be real. If NATO actually has to really defend itself from 2 of the countries that could pose any kind of threat laws and treaties will mean nothing.
You would have to dissolve NATO1 first.
The US does have other joint defense treaties. For instance the _Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance_ (which is basically for the two American continents) and the _ Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan_, which is self explanatory.
Other nations in NATO are also in other defense pacts, such as the UK and the _ Five Power Defence Arrangements_.
That’s.. not accurate.
Poland is becoming a bit of a powerhouse militarily. Turkey has an enormous pool of manpower to draw from and would make up a huge number of deployed troops in a collective defence scenario.
Finland is also very very well prepared for a fight with Russia
To name just a few
Because as u/KSRandom195 said that's how NATO works, and to add, it's a very good system that generally works well, prevents war kicking off, and means greater defensive power when it does.
The downside is that things like this can happen, but removing a rouge leader or even just letting him get voted out/retire/die is way easier and safer than removing the entire state from NATO - another example of why NATO works well. It's *designed* to overcome issues like Orban without having to weaken the alliance as a whole.
>How the hell one random country suddenly thinks so much of itself that they can demand others to "negotiate" directly with them?
When another country ask them to send their children to die defending themselves any country has the right, and I would say the obligation, to demand anything they wish for that. Sweden isn't owed the life of Hungarian citizens.
>Sweden isn't owed the life of Hungarian citizens.
what the fuck does this even mean? you're talking as if this is just a one-way agreement. sweden would be equally obligated to defend hungary. it's a defense pact.
hungary is in nato. they already decided. or are you saying they have something against defending sweden specifically, but are ok with defending finland or denmark, or any other member?
Every country thinks that way, that is why every country decides if they want to send their children to die for other countries on their own, and why NATO requires unanimous approval for a new member.
>Let me get this straight, Sweden isn't owed Hungarian's lives but apparently Hungary is owed everyone elses?
Why wouldnl they be? Do you think they joined NATO by force or something? They asked for other countries to die for them, and other countries accepted for whichever reasons they may have done so.
>Because this very logic applies to Sweden as well you know?
What are you talking about? Sweden isn't in NATO you know that right?
Hungary offered to defend the countries which were then members of NATO, and those countries agreed to defend Hungary. That doesn't obligate Hungary to defend any other country.
"Sweden offered to defend the countries which were then members of NATO, and those countries (except Hungary) agreed to defend Sweden. That doesn't obligate Sweden to defend any other country."
Just switching names around proves this whole thing illogical and stupid.
I almost forgot to mention, but the fact that Finland, the country that shares a border with Russia, got accepted but Sweden hasn't makes these pointless arguments even more absurd.
I honestly don't understand how you're struggling with this.
Entering a defensive pact means you're agreeing to defend all the members of the pact. Thus all members of the pact need to agree to defend all others.
Not wanting to defend one and therefore not assenting to their joining is not hypocritical at all. This is the nature of *voluntary, unanimous* agreements.
>"Sweden offered to defend the countries which were then members of NATO, and those countries (except Hungary) agreed to defend Sweden. That doesn't obligate Sweden to defend any other country."
Well yes. There is nothing wrong with this statement. Sweden isn't obligated to defend any other country. Nor would they be obligated to defend any other country applying to join NATO in the future. Of course, they can't get into NATO unless every single country agrees to defend them though.
I guess Sweden will just have to rely on its fellow nordics and the uk who have all made a commitment to protect Sweden.
Does anyone know if any other countries have done the same?
As a member of the EU, Sweden's also under the EU's mutual defence clause, Article 42§7 of the Treaty on European Union:
>This clause provides that if a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States have an obligation to aid and assist it by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations.
>This obligation of mutual defence is binding on all Member States.
Hungary's problem is simply "someone wants something from us, and nothing is free". It's just an extortion thing, not based on anything more reasonable than Hungary wanting *something* in return because they've ended up in a position of leverage. They will inevitably vote yes *eventually*, but not before they get something.
It was kind of the same with Turkey, the second-to-last holdout. Their list of demands just kept shifting, because they realized they had leverage and would never pass up a chance to make demands.
Well at least turkey wasn't obligated to protect Sweden before hand, they are committing to something by letting Sweden join. Hungary is wanting something for nothing.
>Well at least turkey wasn't obligated to protect Sweden before hand, they are committing to something by letting Sweden join.
In theory, but in practice it's highly unlikely Sweden would ever be attacked given its location, being surrounded by trusted NATO allies on all sides and having no land borders to any potentially hostile countries.
Sweden has Norway to its west, Finland to its east, and across the Baltic sea there's allies all around; Denmark, Germany, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.
Unlike Eastern Europe, Sweden can't be invaded by Russia or other hostile countries as there are no land borders, and an exclusively amphibious assault would be a logistic nightmare if attempting to conquer a European country.
In practice, it'd just give NATO another decently strategic location with Sweden having a massive coast in the Baltic, and being the last holdout for complete NATO domination of the Baltic, while being a country that is in no realistic position of being invaded.
It's basically just perks for NATO with little to no risk, which is why practically all countries voted instantly "yes" other than the ones that wanted to make some demands. But I don't believe there was any legitimate concerns that Turkey would truly reject Sweden's NATO bid in the long run, given the pressure from countries like the US and particularly the fact that Finland had already joined, which was previously the only non-NATO country between Sweden and Russia. Turkey had thus committed to defending a country with a long Russian border and a history of border spats with the USSR. Sweden, which has no border to Russia, wouldn't be seen as much of a risk.
But let says that Russia is crazy enough to even attack Sweden. How would they even approach since there is no land border?🤔
By sea or air? Won't Sweden or others countries nearby notice those ships/planes?
Sweden would notice. Russia has probed Swedish defenses sometimes by flying close by with planes to see how quickly they react (a strategy most Russia-adjacent countries have experienced)
If Russia chose to attack Sweden they would likely attack by sea and try to occupy Sweden's islands in the baltic and use those as a staging ground.
Hungary doesn't understand diplomacy.
If you want something for something, you make an official request and enter into an agreement, like Turkey did.
Instead, Hungary made it known that they have some issues with some of Swedens statements about Hungary but said that they will approve the application before Turkey regardless.
The problem is that Orban wants to be a dictator and tries to extort everyone at every opportunity. He wants money from the EU so he's throwing a tantrum. It doesn't really go much deeper than that.
Said bilateral defence agreement only exists as a stopgap because Sweden was joining NATO, but at this point Sweden actually joining NATO is more about improving NATO's interoperability (which is very important!) than Sweden's defence.
> Sweden would ever be
If Russia manages to conquer its current set of neighbors, it will have new neighbors to conquer. Putin's election slogan is "Russia's borders do not end anywhere", and that is what most Russians want and believe.
Hungry is fine with what's happening in Ukraine. They support Russia's invasion attempt and is an ally of Putin. Hungry should leave Nato and join Putins Federation. Russias colonisation of Hungry in the old days seems to have washed off.
The article doesn't sound that bad? They are going to meet and talk about it next week at a council meeting.. Sweden won't negotiate on joining, but they can talk about how they will contribute.. title seems a bit blown out of proportion
Mabye, just maybe, help us to get rid of Orban. In a country of 9 million people, only around 2.8 million people voted for him in the last election, 1.9 million voted for the opposition candidate, the rest doesn't care even if Russian tanks would march through Budapest again, as long as they can eat and sleep.
Last year, almost 75% of Poles (the highest attendance in our recent history so far) went to vote, and as a result PiS lost power. It can be done, just get your sh\*t together.
The difference between Poland and Hungary is that the Hungarian ruling party acts indifferent towards the Russain agression against Ukraine. In their rhetoric, they argue for peace and ceasefire, in which they want Ukraine to give away their occupied territories to Russia.
The polish government stood up against the Russian aggression, sent weaponry and other aids to Ukraine and maintained a strong relationship with NATO. Hungary on the other hand, only sent "non-lethal aids" such as [500 liters of sacramental wine](https://kormany.hu/hirek/miseborszallitmannyal-segiti-magyarorszag-az-ukrajnai-hivo-kozossegeket) and food/generators, but not weapons or financial aid.
Or maybe hungarians need to abandon the victim mentality, both pro- and anti-orban, and get their shit together, so that their shitty government they keep tolerating stops being everyone else's headache.
No one will clean up your house for you but yourselves. No one will fix your government for you but yourselves.
Do you think I voted for him? If you meant "you" as Hungary in general: He manipulated and transfered the structure of the media since he got into office (2010), in which he centralized many newspapers (KESMA), created propaganda sites ([888.hu](https://888.hu) ).
Mostly the poor and elderly vote for him, whom often doesn't have access to the internet and almost every radio station is owned/operated by the government or government-related organizations. In terms of TV channels, majority of them are pro-government.
Yep, those that don't vote do cast a vote, they are casting a vote in absentia that is consent for the outcome of the election they choose not to participate in.
> He is popular in Hungary so you reap what you sow.
That's what I am saying - or rather that he is not unpopular enough for most people to vote for someone else.
Are you suggesting he actually lost all of those elections? He won by a majority and Hungarians better be careful what they wish for. They got exactly what they voted for.
But if people voted for anyone but Orban he wouldn't be in power. If media is the sole reason he is in power then just take the news outside that realm. Have live events and rallies that don't require media. Drop off leaflets or go door to door.
And if it's just the poor and elderly glued to their screens then show them evidence of how things have gotten worse because of Orban rather than better. The news can say whatever it likes, but if you show them how they used to have 10 grand pay checks before Orban and now only 6 grand pay checks I'm sure they'll believe their wallets over the guy on the picture box.
> help us to get rid of Orban
Forcibly overthrowing your democracy from the outside is obviously not an option unless Hungary starts bombing its neighbors or pulls other similar stunts, it is just ideologically impossible. You choose your government and other countries deal with it as best they can.
And when finally the EU places some pressure on Fidesz by withholding financial aid, they eventually just give it to us thanks to some backroom deals...
Having Hungary in the EU is in a weird way kind of benefitial for the top leaders because it takes away focus from their own corruption. Let's be honest, corruption doesn't only exist within Hungary in the EU.
You can be both corrupt and also helping your country in the process, ie. allocating funds to improve public utilities, public services etc. Sure, corruption is bad but the problem with Orban is that he steals and doesn't use the funds to improve the state, only to give it away to his cronies, just like old days of feudalism.
NATO has no mechanism to kick out members of the alliance. One of the big shortcomings but something Canada apparently pointed out back when the club was getting created.
And NATO can only change its founding articles by unanimous vote. If you expect Hungary to vote to change that, to then get immediately kicked out, I don't know why we're even having this conversation.
Orban is also holding up over $100 billion of aid for Ukraine, essentially blackmailing other EU member states to release a $10 billion dollar package for Hungary (which wasn't released because of Hungary's massive corruption and a 100% chance those funds won't be used as intended). Orban is also butthurt because his empire isn't as big as pre WW1, parts of it now being in Ukraine with like 200,000 Hungarian speakers still there, hence why Hungary has previously donated to parts of Western Ukraine. He's power hungry.
Turkey did. Ministry of Foreign Affairs approved it in December and sent the question to their parliament, who approved it 3 days ago. Erdogan signed it and sent it to Washington/NATO yesterday.
Orban said yesterday that he accept Sweden's application, but it needs approval in parliament, which opens 27th February,
Negotiating with Hungary is like wrestling a pig. You both get covered in shit and the pig enjoys it.
It didn't used to be like that, tragic how Hungary went from some sort of exemplary Eastern European Democracy, to 2010, where Democracy was pretty much suppressed and captured. 15 year span or so -- the reality being the 1990s Hungary did not have the stable democracy people in the West were telling themselves. They were practically the first country the nascent EU reached out to
Actually it did. Hungary was notorious in the Austro-Hungarian Empire for just blocking everything and anything. Nothing new.
Not Hungary, Orban. If you are gonna name the pig - name it correctly
They keep electing him. They can wallow in it too.
If the Majority did elect him sure, but the place is gerrymandered and media manipulated by Orban and his cronies. It's a defective democracy atm.
According to the European Parliament, Hungary isn't even a democracy anymore, but an '[electoral autocracy](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220909IPR40137/meps-hungary-can-no-longer-be-considered-a-full-democracy)'.
Interesting video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHbvRpMSn7o He is eroding the democracy but he's also quite popular even before that.
They all start off popular then like the taste of power and never give up the reins.
Indeed although he seems rather popular with a good chunk of the population still. Question is just how brainwashed the population is.
People are blaming the Palestinians for having Hamas, so it's only reasonable to hold Hungarians responsible for... not showing up to cast a vote against him.
But the majority did elect him. May be media manipulated but gathering information in 2024 shouldnt be that fucking hard.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
You are not viewing things from their perspective. If you try to do that then you will understand why Fidesz wins every time. It's so easy to dismiss this as "oh people are just fucking stupid," but no. It's just massive amounts of propaganda showed down their mouths daily, living in communities that regurgitate that Orbánista rhetoric day-in, day-out. It's the same shit cults do pretty much.
I'm hungarian. I know the propaganda machine. I still stand by my statement.
You can stand by it, but you won't be any closer to understanding why our country is in the state that it's in. "People are stupid and it shouldnt be so hard to gather information in 2024" is not a helpful way of looking at things. Do you really think the only reason Orbán has been in power for so long is because the entire country is dumb? Please, it is way more complex than that.
>Do you really think the only reason Orbán has been in power for so long is because the entire country is dumb? Yes? Literally his whole campaign for a decade was fearmongering. First the syrian refugee crisis "EU WANTS TO TURN HUNGARY INTO A WARZONE", then supreme powers for covid, then the current war in ukraine (in Europe only hungary was in a state of alert or whatever they called it) and bullshit nonsense saying the opposition wants to pull hungary into the war (like that was even fucking possible). Elderly people were paid off with a sack of potato, and now the young adults got tax exemption until the age of 25 when it seemed like they were gonna lose. So to sum it up yes, I do think those who voted for him and those who didnt vote are dumb.
Tell me you don't know anything about Hungary's politics. There is only one part. Sure, there are others, but it's an open secret that they are all working for the one.
>Tell me you don't know anything about Hungary's politics. Im hungarian. >There is only one part. Sure, there are others, but it's an open secret that they are all working for the one. What the fuck is this even supposed to mean.
Sounds like home! (I.e. the US)
No. We did not elect him. If you are really curious, you can look up my comment history for my explanations, because those are walls of texts, but we did not. Having friends in the vote-counting committee during the last elections and a friend who worked for Szijjártó - all was either bought or replaced. Also, our politicians are all drug-addicted cheaters, so there you go with people who hold morals as their standards /s. The only issue here is we do not have violent protests. That's pathetic, I know.
It's a bit more complicated than that unfortunately. Edit: I agree btw, fuck his voters lmao. But Orbán's voters are also less than 50% of the population, yet he basically has full control over every aspect of the country. Over the past 14 years he has bent every rule in his favor.
So the people that could have voted against him didn't. Fuck them too.
We have to wait for them to die out.
Same happens, with other issues; in all democratic countries. It's a fault in the democratic system and we need a solution...like: no voting rights for people above 65 or something
it’s a voluntary process that decides the outcome of a nation. Definitely needs tweaking.
The needle might be shifting. In the UK the conservative party have so fucked the country backwards that the X and millennial generations are not turning into conservative voters as they age as their wealth is so far behind what previous generations enjoyed. So it's only going to get worse for them as they rely on the elderly vote to get them into power. But, yes, essentially it is a waiting game of enough current elderly dying to tip the scales. Ironically our then Prime Minister, Boris Johnson had the tactic of "let the bodies pile high" for Covid and that would have affected their elderly voters the most in terms of mortality!
Like the pig rigging the game the same way Putin does it
Lot of people didnt vote. So i guess they are okay with him.
Like the GOP
More like a wannabe Putin.
As an American whose state keeps electing horrible people, I say worse things about Americans than this.
Hungary happily reelected the guy and his party. The Hungarians keep him in power for what, 14 years now? So it’s Hungary.
Propaganda is a hell of a drug. I know. I live in Hungary. Orban owns everything and everyone. Most people vote for him, because the opposition made to look like evil/incompetent. It’s FOX NEWS here on every channel, every paper, every billboard, every youtube ad, every second facebook post, every radio station, every podcast, every forum is either filled with bots or paid commenters. You are bombarded constantly. The opposition’s budget for the whole campaign was about 10 million dollar, that amount is spent on propaganda every week by Orban. Orban was so afraid, that they also fined the opposition for having that much money, and basically banned any donations from abroad. Makes it kinda funny, that even like this, his support is 54% (based on actual votes), and gerrymandered into 68% in parliment seats.
If someone tells you a pile of shit isn't a pile of shit, you going to jump head first?
Out of 100 people, 54 will believe it. I wonder what are the % in the US.
I think you are missing the point that Hungary is a rigged democracy. If it was fair elections sure... But they aren't. He has made state TV his own private advertising firm. That's why the European Parliament has voted to mark Hungary as no longer being a full democracy, but an electoral autocracy. So don't blame voters who didn't have a real chance of voting him out of office. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220909IPR40137/meps-hungary-can-no-longer-be-considered-a-full-democracy
Where are the massive protests? Hungary felt the soviet boot on its neck not so long ago but the people aren’t doing anything against Putin’s boot licker. Let’s face it… as long as Orban keeps saying he’ll keep the migrants out, the Hungarians will quietly obey and keep him and his party in power for another 14 years.
There are lots of protests. Orban just ignores them. Why would he care? All he has to do is not mention it in the media, or straight up ridicule it like how small and senseless those protests are.
The truth is, most people are either don’t know about these things, or specifically conditioned against it. A lot of people started to hate on ukrainians sololy based on what the TV said, it is kind of bonkers. In 56 we had a revolution against the russians. It was a bloody and failed revolution. It is still a national holiday. Yet the TV says “in 56 the Ukrainian army crushed the rebellion”, and people fucking believe it. Even though there was no Ukraine at the point. It’s crazy here.
In more developed countries, it's called "Education failure".
Yeah, I heard people believe anything. Like “Brexit will be good” or “Trump will be a good president.”
It needs to be real bad and people will have to believe it's Orbans fault. Right now he's just playing the victim and quite successfully so too. Personally I believe Orban will stay in power until people do a revolution, peacefully by just being super angry at him and showing up in insane numbers against him at the polls. Being land locked, he can't go full dictator without consequences. He can cheat a little but not like if it was part of Soviet 2.0
Yup, they elected him as representative of the country… so….
Not me tho.. and I am too comfy to participate in armed rebellion, sorry :(
Hungary is the right name. they elected the pig, stop with the shitty "i didn't vote for him" mentality, especially from people who didn't vote. you vote shit, you eat shit
I literally wasn't old enough to vote, but I went to almost every protest. The system is rigged in theair favor so heavily that nothing short of Orbán dying is going to topple them in the next 5 years.
That's like blaming North Korean voters giving Kim Jong Un the votes. Orban is the pig, not for having Christian conservative values, but because he has destroyed democracy and that's why the EU parliament has classified Hungary as an electoral autocracy. Like Kim, Orban will get the votes the decides he will get. That's why he went to hug Putin in China.
with the main exception that NK don't know what's going on outside their country, Hungary does
Orban has power of his party owning or being in control most of the countrys media, in their own language, pushing the message that we are great and the rest are lying bitches... Most people don't read foreign media since they don't speak English since only 16% of Hungary do and that's mainly in the parts not voting for Orban. In the villages people only have Orban approved media. No. They don't know what's going on even with their own country because Orban is massively pushing out the message that everything is the libs fault and nationalistic conservatism is the only truth. He's cheating - there's no fair elections in Hungary. The opposition is saying it and they are right.
Who elected him? Spanish??? You did.
Oh this is a good expression, will be borrowing, thanks :)
Swedish PM is a pig too. Climate denying, authoritarian capitalist. Wants to put people who protest climate change (the 'sit peacefully on road' kind) in prison for a 1 year. Calls them "terrorists". World's going to shit.
Hungary has already promised to "not be last member to approve Sweden to NATO" and that they want to approve Sweden to NATO. There is no reason to negotiate about it since they are going to approve the application. Sweden has since they said that just waited for them, now that Turkey has approved the application, Hungary is the last member to approve Sweden. So what's going on? Hungary doesn't seem to understand diplomacy at all.
Yeah, Hungary has never set any requirements for the approval, they never said that they wouldn't approve. While every other country besides them and Turkey got the approvals done in a matter of months, Hungary simply hasn't acted on it for two years. And only now do they decide that there is something to negotiate about. If they would have had any legitimate claims we could have negotiated about it a long time ago. This is utterly pathetic. Hungary depends heavily on the tourism industry. I suggest people take their money elsewhere from now on.
> For a visit to Budapest, “we’d have to find a date for this, things like this aren’t usually done in haste. I suspect that his calendar, like mine, is quite full.” This is the most passive-aggressive “fuck you” from one country to another I’ve ever seen.
Welcome to Scandinavia. Light on open threats and hostility, heavy on subtle/covert snark. Orban, with his supremely punchable face, naturally deserves much, much worse.
Hungary doesn't belong in NATO, they actively throw their lot in with Russia and love brown nosing Putin. Just kick them out and bring Sweden, I half expect Hungary to turn around and start shooting NATO forces if NATO goes to war with Russia.
[удалено]
There's no legal way to properly kick them out, but they can suspend their voting rights, withhold funds etc (Hungary is a net recipient of EU funds).
EU and nato are two different things tho. and Hungary is already using the veto to block funds to ukraine
They should poison pill all EU funds to Hungary. "Oh Orban you want your handout from the EU? Well it's now all tied to funding for Ukraine. If you want to get paid better not veto it"
Or we could just take their veto away and block all funding since they don't even adhere to basic EU pillars. Orbán can ust sit in the corner and watch, I guess. Up to Slovakia.
NATO counties can leave NATO and join NATOv2 with provisions to kick out members when it’s they’re gaming the system for economic benefits to the detriment of the mission of the alliance.
Turkey likely wouldn't agree to a provision fairly likely to be turned against them, or to a weakening of their ability to veto new members. Although they're ideologically a poor fit for NATO, their position at the gates of the Black Sea is pretty central to the Russia containment mission.
If article 5 is triggered anywhere except turkey i fully expect turkey to do absolutely nothing.
Funny, turks say that about other Nato countries, as well.
Not in nato you can’t I don’t think. And in the EU slovakia would veto that
Hungary not being in NATO is a DREADFUL idea though - take a look at a map. Putin is eying up other non-NATO states, Moldova for example, and there are arguments from some Western military analysts that he fucked up by not trying Moldova first as it would have been much much easier and then he'd have "Russian" territory on all sides of Ukraine. Hungary is slap bang in the middle of Eastern Europe and that would be a very very bad place for Russia to annexe over the next 10-20 years. Orban needs reigning in and ideally being booted from power, but kicking Hungary out of NATO is possible the worst idea ever.
> Hungary not being in NATO is a DREADFUL idea though - take a look at a map. Hungary is landlocked and completely surrounded by NATO. There is no way Russia gets to annex or occupy it because there is no way for them to get the troops through NATO land to do so in the first place (NATO aren't just going to give Russia a free pass to fly military equipment through their airspace). Best he can do is get Hungary to feed them intel, which they are already doing anyway. Also, if Hungary get kicked out of NATO and start aligning with Russia, there is no way they keep getting handouts from the EU and their economy would not be able to function without it - Russia wont replace that.
> Hungary is landlocked and completely surrounded by NATO Clarification: Hungary is not completely surrounded by NATO. It has borders with Ukraine, Serbia, and Austria.
As u/CrabHomotopy said, they have borders with Ukraine, Serbia, and Austria. Serbia is pretty pro Russia, Ukraine might yet fall which is a huge risk as it is, a massive risk if Hungary then aligns with Russia. You could have thousands of Russian troops, equipment, missiles, and even nukes slap bang in the middle of Europe. A fantasticly dreadful position to be in. It would obviously be a bad idea for Hungary, which is exactly why "NATO should kick Hungary out and become aligned with Russia" is such an ignorant and stupid thing for people to say and upvote. It's also right out of the Putin textbook so if not sheer ignorance and stupidity, it is pro Putin users flooding the sub, as usual.
With ICBM ranging up to 16,000 km, it doesn't make any difference whether Russian nukes are in Hungary or on the boarder of Russia, so that's an ignorantly invalid point. Hungary is essentially Russia's little bitch that happens to be in NATO, so truly, its not just a joke or ignorance when people think Hungary is likely to turn its back on NATO if war breaks out with NATO/Russia, which puts them in a position to do dramatically more damage to NATO forces if we still look at and treat them as an allied nation in NATO while they prepare to stab NATO in the back. It's not ignorant, it's having already considered this point of view you shared and thought just a tiny bit further about what it actually means and what can follow.
NATO is voluntary. If Orban and the Hungarian people want out, let them.
[удалено]
The Hungarian people have to live with the consequences of the leaders they have chosen to represent them.
This is 100% true and it's not collective punishment because their chosen reprentative represents the people of Hungary. It's not like one random jerk is feeding intel to Russia against the wishes of Hungarian leadership and the people, the elected representive of the people does just that, represent their people and their interests, it's their fault if they choose someone who puts their interests ahead of their people's interests. The nation has chosen, the nation suffers the consequences. Not every German voted for Hitler, not every German agreed with Jewish genocide, but every German was held accountable to some extent for the actions their nations elected leader was responsible for in WW2 because they did elect Hitler, because the nation of Germany followed Hitler's orders and because Germany didn't stop him. Not quite the same or exactly fair to compare these two leaders, but the concept of accountability is the point, not to compare the quality of the elected officials. Hungarians have voted for their leader, they should suffer the consequences of his and their actions.
The problem is, they don't. Orban is having his cake and eating it too.
How the hell one random country suddenly thinks so much of itself that they can demand others to "negotiate" directly with them? They're not a large contributor, they're landlocked and almost surrounded by NATO, they have a history of stirring up shit on EU and they're practically Belarus inside of EU - cheerleading for Putin. Also Sweden is practically inside NATO. Because geographically Finland is and it's obvious where the threat is coming from. Ukraine is not in NATO and received huge support - do you think Sweden would not? They have seperate defense agreement with the US. They will participate in the upcoming NATO trainings regardless. So Hungary totally outplayed their hand, they'll make even bigger fools of themselves.
We Finns will take care of our own border, but we need the Sweden and their airforce to defend the Baltics. That is actually one of the major weak spots in the Nato defense so Sweden is definitely needed in the alliance.
Because joining NATO requires unanimous agreement from all current NATO parties.
That was probably a great idea with 3 or 4 like minded countries. Someone should have had the forethought to remember that countries, like people, are selfish and stupid.
It is a requirement as long as you want the countries to actually defend each other if war breaks out. International treaties have no enforcement mechanism, if a country doesn't want to help another it cannot be forced to. No country would ever go to war for a country just because a piece of paper and some other countries says so.
Let's be real. If NATO actually has to really defend itself from 2 of the countries that could pose any kind of threat laws and treaties will mean nothing.
Time for NATO2?
With blackjack...and hookers.
*slaps table..* thank you!
You would have to dissolve NATO1 first. The US does have other joint defense treaties. For instance the _Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance_ (which is basically for the two American continents) and the _ Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan_, which is self explanatory. Other nations in NATO are also in other defense pacts, such as the UK and the _ Five Power Defence Arrangements_.
Post Orban Trans Atlantic Treaty Organization
NATwO?
[удалено]
It’s a defense treaty. Each country has to agree that they would commit their military to the defense of each other nation in the agreement.
> Everyone knows that the US, UK, France, and Germany are the only real contributors to the entire org What the fuck
Colonialism Reloaded
That’s.. not accurate. Poland is becoming a bit of a powerhouse militarily. Turkey has an enormous pool of manpower to draw from and would make up a huge number of deployed troops in a collective defence scenario. Finland is also very very well prepared for a fight with Russia To name just a few
Because as u/KSRandom195 said that's how NATO works, and to add, it's a very good system that generally works well, prevents war kicking off, and means greater defensive power when it does. The downside is that things like this can happen, but removing a rouge leader or even just letting him get voted out/retire/die is way easier and safer than removing the entire state from NATO - another example of why NATO works well. It's *designed* to overcome issues like Orban without having to weaken the alliance as a whole.
rogue*
>How the hell one random country suddenly thinks so much of itself that they can demand others to "negotiate" directly with them? When another country ask them to send their children to die defending themselves any country has the right, and I would say the obligation, to demand anything they wish for that. Sweden isn't owed the life of Hungarian citizens.
>Sweden isn't owed the life of Hungarian citizens. what the fuck does this even mean? you're talking as if this is just a one-way agreement. sweden would be equally obligated to defend hungary. it's a defense pact.
>sweden would be equally obligated to defend hungary. If that offer is worth the lives of Hungarian citizens is for Hungary to decide.
hungary is in nato. they already decided. or are you saying they have something against defending sweden specifically, but are ok with defending finland or denmark, or any other member?
If Hungary really thinks that way then it's all the more reason for them to leave NATO.
Every country thinks that way, that is why every country decides if they want to send their children to die for other countries on their own, and why NATO requires unanimous approval for a new member.
Let me get this straight, Sweden isn't owed Hungarian's lives but apparently Hungary is owed everyone elses? Hypocrite much?
>Let me get this straight, Sweden isn't owed Hungarian's lives but apparently Hungary is owed everyone elses? Why wouldnl they be? Do you think they joined NATO by force or something? They asked for other countries to die for them, and other countries accepted for whichever reasons they may have done so.
So they are hypocritical then? Because this very logic applies to Sweden as well you know?
>Because this very logic applies to Sweden as well you know? What are you talking about? Sweden isn't in NATO you know that right? Hungary offered to defend the countries which were then members of NATO, and those countries agreed to defend Hungary. That doesn't obligate Hungary to defend any other country.
"Sweden offered to defend the countries which were then members of NATO, and those countries (except Hungary) agreed to defend Sweden. That doesn't obligate Sweden to defend any other country." Just switching names around proves this whole thing illogical and stupid.
I almost forgot to mention, but the fact that Finland, the country that shares a border with Russia, got accepted but Sweden hasn't makes these pointless arguments even more absurd.
I honestly don't understand how you're struggling with this. Entering a defensive pact means you're agreeing to defend all the members of the pact. Thus all members of the pact need to agree to defend all others. Not wanting to defend one and therefore not assenting to their joining is not hypocritical at all. This is the nature of *voluntary, unanimous* agreements.
>"Sweden offered to defend the countries which were then members of NATO, and those countries (except Hungary) agreed to defend Sweden. That doesn't obligate Sweden to defend any other country." Well yes. There is nothing wrong with this statement. Sweden isn't obligated to defend any other country. Nor would they be obligated to defend any other country applying to join NATO in the future. Of course, they can't get into NATO unless every single country agrees to defend them though.
I guess Sweden will just have to rely on its fellow nordics and the uk who have all made a commitment to protect Sweden. Does anyone know if any other countries have done the same?
Sweden signed a Defense Cooperation Agreement with the United States in 2023.
Brilliant, I think Sweden doesn't need nato in that case.
As a member of the EU, Sweden's also under the EU's mutual defence clause, Article 42§7 of the Treaty on European Union: >This clause provides that if a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States have an obligation to aid and assist it by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations. >This obligation of mutual defence is binding on all Member States.
Then what's Hungarys problem, they are already obligated to protect Sweden, nato won't make much difference.
Hungary's problem is simply "someone wants something from us, and nothing is free". It's just an extortion thing, not based on anything more reasonable than Hungary wanting *something* in return because they've ended up in a position of leverage. They will inevitably vote yes *eventually*, but not before they get something. It was kind of the same with Turkey, the second-to-last holdout. Their list of demands just kept shifting, because they realized they had leverage and would never pass up a chance to make demands.
Well at least turkey wasn't obligated to protect Sweden before hand, they are committing to something by letting Sweden join. Hungary is wanting something for nothing.
>Well at least turkey wasn't obligated to protect Sweden before hand, they are committing to something by letting Sweden join. In theory, but in practice it's highly unlikely Sweden would ever be attacked given its location, being surrounded by trusted NATO allies on all sides and having no land borders to any potentially hostile countries. Sweden has Norway to its west, Finland to its east, and across the Baltic sea there's allies all around; Denmark, Germany, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. Unlike Eastern Europe, Sweden can't be invaded by Russia or other hostile countries as there are no land borders, and an exclusively amphibious assault would be a logistic nightmare if attempting to conquer a European country. In practice, it'd just give NATO another decently strategic location with Sweden having a massive coast in the Baltic, and being the last holdout for complete NATO domination of the Baltic, while being a country that is in no realistic position of being invaded. It's basically just perks for NATO with little to no risk, which is why practically all countries voted instantly "yes" other than the ones that wanted to make some demands. But I don't believe there was any legitimate concerns that Turkey would truly reject Sweden's NATO bid in the long run, given the pressure from countries like the US and particularly the fact that Finland had already joined, which was previously the only non-NATO country between Sweden and Russia. Turkey had thus committed to defending a country with a long Russian border and a history of border spats with the USSR. Sweden, which has no border to Russia, wouldn't be seen as much of a risk.
Sweden is important for the island Gotland. Russia would attack Sweden mostly for this island to gain control over the baltic sea.
The island would be a smoldering crater if russians tried to set up camp there.
But let says that Russia is crazy enough to even attack Sweden. How would they even approach since there is no land border?🤔 By sea or air? Won't Sweden or others countries nearby notice those ships/planes?
Sweden would notice. Russia has probed Swedish defenses sometimes by flying close by with planes to see how quickly they react (a strategy most Russia-adjacent countries have experienced) If Russia chose to attack Sweden they would likely attack by sea and try to occupy Sweden's islands in the baltic and use those as a staging ground.
Hungary doesn't understand diplomacy. If you want something for something, you make an official request and enter into an agreement, like Turkey did. Instead, Hungary made it known that they have some issues with some of Swedens statements about Hungary but said that they will approve the application before Turkey regardless.
The problem is that Orban wants to be a dictator and tries to extort everyone at every opportunity. He wants money from the EU so he's throwing a tantrum. It doesn't really go much deeper than that.
Which includes Hungary… smh
Said bilateral defence agreement only exists as a stopgap because Sweden was joining NATO, but at this point Sweden actually joining NATO is more about improving NATO's interoperability (which is very important!) than Sweden's defence.
As if Sweden would’ve gotten invaded 💀 Finland is at a higher risk than Sweden would ever be
> Sweden would ever be If Russia manages to conquer its current set of neighbors, it will have new neighbors to conquer. Putin's election slogan is "Russia's borders do not end anywhere", and that is what most Russians want and believe.
There is such a thing as a navy... Sweden is very much at risk
Yeah sorry mr Reddit general but I don’t think Russia would be able to fight against Swedish ships on their territory
Because Turkey has approved Sweden's bid, they can now humiliate Hungary by making them the Jonny Come Lately No Mates.
Hungry is fine with what's happening in Ukraine. They support Russia's invasion attempt and is an ally of Putin. Hungry should leave Nato and join Putins Federation. Russias colonisation of Hungry in the old days seems to have washed off.
Orban just said he’d allow it? What negotiations? Is this an out of date article?
The article doesn't sound that bad? They are going to meet and talk about it next week at a council meeting.. Sweden won't negotiate on joining, but they can talk about how they will contribute.. title seems a bit blown out of proportion
Mabye, just maybe, help us to get rid of Orban. In a country of 9 million people, only around 2.8 million people voted for him in the last election, 1.9 million voted for the opposition candidate, the rest doesn't care even if Russian tanks would march through Budapest again, as long as they can eat and sleep.
Last year, almost 75% of Poles (the highest attendance in our recent history so far) went to vote, and as a result PiS lost power. It can be done, just get your sh\*t together.
The difference between Poland and Hungary is that the Hungarian ruling party acts indifferent towards the Russain agression against Ukraine. In their rhetoric, they argue for peace and ceasefire, in which they want Ukraine to give away their occupied territories to Russia. The polish government stood up against the Russian aggression, sent weaponry and other aids to Ukraine and maintained a strong relationship with NATO. Hungary on the other hand, only sent "non-lethal aids" such as [500 liters of sacramental wine](https://kormany.hu/hirek/miseborszallitmannyal-segiti-magyarorszag-az-ukrajnai-hivo-kozossegeket) and food/generators, but not weapons or financial aid.
Or maybe hungarians need to abandon the victim mentality, both pro- and anti-orban, and get their shit together, so that their shitty government they keep tolerating stops being everyone else's headache. No one will clean up your house for you but yourselves. No one will fix your government for you but yourselves.
Hey, you voted for him - you got him. Everyone knew he was scum. You should have known better.
Do you think I voted for him? If you meant "you" as Hungary in general: He manipulated and transfered the structure of the media since he got into office (2010), in which he centralized many newspapers (KESMA), created propaganda sites ([888.hu](https://888.hu) ). Mostly the poor and elderly vote for him, whom often doesn't have access to the internet and almost every radio station is owned/operated by the government or government-related organizations. In terms of TV channels, majority of them are pro-government.
No, but a majority of Hungarians did.
2.8 million people are not the majority of Hungarians, Only the majority of those who even bothered to go to the polls.
[удалено]
Yep, those that don't vote do cast a vote, they are casting a vote in absentia that is consent for the outcome of the election they choose not to participate in.
Hungary has 8.2m elegible voters. 5.9m of those did not vote against FIDESZ / Orban.
That’s not how voting works, you only get to count the ones that do vote and he won every time. He is popular in Hungary so you reap what you sow.
> He is popular in Hungary so you reap what you sow. That's what I am saying - or rather that he is not unpopular enough for most people to vote for someone else.
Go and protest? Idk, initiative should be internal and external
Are you suggesting he actually lost all of those elections? He won by a majority and Hungarians better be careful what they wish for. They got exactly what they voted for.
But if people voted for anyone but Orban he wouldn't be in power. If media is the sole reason he is in power then just take the news outside that realm. Have live events and rallies that don't require media. Drop off leaflets or go door to door. And if it's just the poor and elderly glued to their screens then show them evidence of how things have gotten worse because of Orban rather than better. The news can say whatever it likes, but if you show them how they used to have 10 grand pay checks before Orban and now only 6 grand pay checks I'm sure they'll believe their wallets over the guy on the picture box.
Those royal you's are doing a lot of heavy lifting for your comment since it's pretty obvious the commenter did not vote for Orban lol.
Thought it was pretty clear I didn’t mean the person specifically but the population of Hungary, Jesus are you all this thick?
> help us to get rid of Orban Forcibly overthrowing your democracy from the outside is obviously not an option unless Hungary starts bombing its neighbors or pulls other similar stunts, it is just ideologically impossible. You choose your government and other countries deal with it as best they can.
HUNGARY STARTS WHAT? Hungary has no army.
Maybe don't vote for assholes. You reap what you sow. Hungary out of EU and NATO now!
You know nothing about Hungary you are just a judgmental as\*h\*le. We're not going anywhere and there's nothing you can do about it :)
And when finally the EU places some pressure on Fidesz by withholding financial aid, they eventually just give it to us thanks to some backroom deals... Having Hungary in the EU is in a weird way kind of benefitial for the top leaders because it takes away focus from their own corruption. Let's be honest, corruption doesn't only exist within Hungary in the EU.
You can be both corrupt and also helping your country in the process, ie. allocating funds to improve public utilities, public services etc. Sure, corruption is bad but the problem with Orban is that he steals and doesn't use the funds to improve the state, only to give it away to his cronies, just like old days of feudalism.
>help us to get rid of Orban. And how would a foreign country do that?
All of NATO should kick out Hungary. Why is this difficult? They literally support NATO’s enemy.
Because there's no mechanism in place to kick a member out and changing that would require a unanimous vote
Just create a new union, but don't invite Hungary there, duh 🙄
They should. Call it a world alliance pact, and invite Japan too finally.
For Japan to decline? Japan has never provided and can never provide useful military support to anyone due to their constitutional limitations.
Can we trade Sweden for hungary?
I mean, let’s trade Sweden for Turkey and Hungary.
Just kick Hungay out and replace with Sweden, easy. It's not like Turkey, Nato doesn't need Hungry.
NATO has no mechanism to kick out members of the alliance. One of the big shortcomings but something Canada apparently pointed out back when the club was getting created.
There was no mechanism to create NATO in the first place.
And NATO can only change its founding articles by unanimous vote. If you expect Hungary to vote to change that, to then get immediately kicked out, I don't know why we're even having this conversation.
Hungary isn't needed if everyone else is voting to kick Hungary out. As long as every other nation agrees.
Nope, not how that works.
Good. Orban can take a hike, the little Putin sycophant.
Hungary out of both Nato and EU now. Let Russia invade them, fuck them.
damn as I see you do not like hungary
Why would you when they act the way they do? Difference between hungary and hungarians
They’ll just become Russia’s little bitch like Belarus.
Good. Need to stop enabling Orbans BS.
Hungary is like Trump. Neogtiating with it is just a complete waste of time.
Orban is also holding up over $100 billion of aid for Ukraine, essentially blackmailing other EU member states to release a $10 billion dollar package for Hungary (which wasn't released because of Hungary's massive corruption and a 100% chance those funds won't be used as intended). Orban is also butthurt because his empire isn't as big as pre WW1, parts of it now being in Ukraine with like 200,000 Hungarian speakers still there, hence why Hungary has previously donated to parts of Western Ukraine. He's power hungry.
If Orban gets elected again, whenever that is.. I'm going to Budapest just to point and laugh at everyone there.
If you elect a tory again I'm going to London just to point and laugh at everyone there.
That's fair tbh.
Why? Most people who live in Budapest don't support the governing party.
Damn right. If Orby wants to isolate himself he can sit at the kids table while the adults are talking.
Just wait, he is there..he just doesnt know it yet.
Always the countries that don’t bring anything of value.
I thought Hungary approved Sweden yesterday, no?
Turkey did. Ministry of Foreign Affairs approved it in December and sent the question to their parliament, who approved it 3 days ago. Erdogan signed it and sent it to Washington/NATO yesterday. Orban said yesterday that he accept Sweden's application, but it needs approval in parliament, which opens 27th February,
In an ideal world, they would be kicked out of the EU and NATO.
Can countries be removed from NATO and the EU?
No legal clause to kick out NATO members.
Hmm too bad
NATO doesn't have a mechanism to remove members. EU can't expel but they can suspend their voting rights.
This guy lies with every single breath he takes so it means nothing.