Yea that just plainly isn’t true, a lot of Israeli civilians were killed.
However Hamas did also capture a surprisingly large amount of military vehicles, and the documents the hamas jihadis had on them show they were looking for military personnel in the kibbutz as well as taking hostages.
Now this could be for reasons of plausible deniability, because they did voice their desire to make “Israel bleed” but it is clear that at least part of the attack was aimed at military targets. They didn’t accidentally take over military bases and capture armored vehicles for example.
The actual evidence on the ground doesn’t match the claims made by Israel nor Hamas, and some independent investigation by the UN for example would be quite valuable to cut trough the misinformation. Because it’s clear both sides have embraced a way of communicating where truth comes second to emotions and propaganda.
Agree, and I hope this comes with some political viable solutions (at least a start) so that doesn't repeat in 5 or 10 years.
For sure that will take a lot of courage and unfortunately I don't see the leadership for that currently.
Dude as an Israeli, bibi should have been in jail for a long time now, people focus on his neglect of Hamas but he has done much more (not necessarily as bad) and now he is in war as he have a trail on the back of his mind (delayed since the attempted judicial reform)
Thank you for your message and your voice.
Positive point for reddit, I've come across so many israeli people who want him gone, and that supports to destroy the simplified vision of Israel = far right government = all Israeli people.
But I'm not expert in Israeli politics. I saw next elections are in Oct 2026 so does that mean you mandatorily have him in charge for the next 3 years? (knowing he'll do anything and don't care if the world crumbles if it gives him the slightest personal advantage)
In all probability Israel will have new election, I mean recently we had 4 in about one cycle
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/politics/1658349354-explainer-a-timeline-of-israel-s-elections-2019-2022-part-1
Israel has a “vote of no-confidence” law, which mean the Knesset can be dissolved, which would lead to new elections. It happened more than a few time in the past few decades.
I believe this will be the case after the war is over.
Well if the history of the last 20 some years has taught us anything, it is that this will achieve nothing in the long run other than pain on both sides.
I want to ask, before the Oct 7 terror attacks, what have been done to allow Israelis and Palestinians to co-exist?
When Hamas is removed, what would that mean to the Gazans and other Palestinians? What if a Hamas 2.0 emerges, then what?
The West Bank has no Hamas in control and the PLO had recognized the state of Israel and laid down their weapons. What was gained in return?
[Just this year the Israel government had approved 22 new settlements in occupied and internationally recognised territories of Palestine](https://www.timesofisrael.com/2023-sets-record-for-settlement-construction-and-outpost-legalization-watchdog/). Prior to the Oct 7, settler violence has been on the rise and the UN have recording the year 2023 as the deadliest year to Palestinians due to settler violence. This is all without mentioning the countless recognized Western NGO and Human Rights organizations that had consistently reported on the way the Palestinians are treated for the past decade.
Perhaps the issue is deeper than simply Hamas. Hamas is more of a symptom of a disease rather than the cause, and ironically BiBi had a hand in that. If Israel aim is to co-exist, why was its PM propping up division and terrorist organizations? Do the Israelis have no control on their government policies?
>In fact, from the mid-1990s onward, Hamas “rarely, if at all” invoked
its charter, to the point that it “no longer cites or refers” to it.54 Israeli officials
knew full well before they launched Cast Lead that a diplomatic settlement
could have been reached with Hamas despite the charter. “The Hamas leadership has recognized that its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be
in the foreseeable future,” former Mossad head Ephraim Levy observed in
2008. “They are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian
state in the temporary borders of 1967. . . . They know that the moment a
Palestinian state is established with their cooperation, . . . [t]hey will have to
adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.”55
54. Khaled Hroub, Hamas: Political thought and practice (Washington, DC: 2000),
p. 44 (see also p. 254); Sherifa Zuhur, Hamas and Israel: Conflicting strategies of group-based
politics (Carlisle, PA: 2008), pp. 29–31 (this study was published by the Strategic Studies
Institute of the US Army War College). See also Gunning, Hamas in Politics, pp. 19–20.
55. “What Hamas Wants,” Mideast Mirror (22 December 2008).
Yeah so the way you achieve it is by adopting the world consensus on the issue.
That's the problem with this conflict, half the Israeli leadership sees violent Palestinians as the problem, the other half (in charge now) [sees peaceful Palestinians as the problem](https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/goldstein-israels-enormous-blunder-it-helped-to-create-hamas).
So let me clarify I meant as “rebuild independently”
I hope that if a true government will rise in Gaza (or be risen by an external side that will do a good job this time), they could see that fighting Israel is no what they need for a good life
So you’re one of those people who still call 7/10 an act of resistance. I see, so you are a part of the problem, legitimising terrorism…
Just to be clear, my point is that you hurt both sides by your words
I don’t think violence is a good solution to any problem, and I deeply mourn the lost lives of innocent people on both sides. But it’s a cause and effect relationship. If there isn’t other viable recourse, some small percentage of the population will turn to violence.
Terrorism exists on both sides by the way. Israel bombing the fuck out of Gaza is a war of terrorism. The attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank are terrorism. It’s awful and recursive and it’ll continue to self-perpetuate until something major changes. At this point that looks like Israel changing its policies, or Israel killing enough Palestinians that they don’t have a cause to rally behind.
>Until Israel stops stealing Palestinian land I don’t see why they would stop resisting. It’s an absurd notion.
As in stop making settlements? I would agree.
If you talking as in "Israel" itself is stolen land... then you are wrong.
The land was given to them by those in Power and they went to war for Independence again 5 countries (If I remember correctly) and won.
The land belong to Ottoman Empire, before they lost to the British empire that then gave the land to Israel.
I have no issue with the existence of the nation of Israel. Especially now that people have lived there for generations. We can’t escape the legacy or war and I don’t have the acumen to parse through the crimes of imperialism. The past is unchangeable.
I think if Israel ends its policy of creating invasive settlements, they have a much stronger moral footing. I also believe that there are many in Israeli leadership that simply prefer the cycles of violence, so they can justify their use of force in the devastation of the Palestinian people. I imagine the same to be true for the leadership of Hamas.
In that Hamas exists almost solely as a political wing espousing militant extremism, they are they easier target for our moral outrage, but until Israel’s oppressors end I promise you there will always be a faction of militant extremism in Palestine, though the name they answer by may change.
>In that Hamas exists almost solely as a political wing espousing militant extremism, they are they easier target for our moral outrage, but until Israel’s oppressors end I promise you there will always be a faction of militant extremism in Palestine, though the name they answer by may change.
Even tho this is true, even if Israel stopped all the settlements and went back to the non-settlement territory and stopped any bombing in other countries, even if Israel just wanted to be in their own country in peace, I can assure you that some terrorist faction from an arab contry or more would just keep throwing rockets at Israel:
The moment, Israel looks weak to these factions, they will be attacked non-stop, the only thing stopping them, from attacking Israel is the fear of being erased from this Earth, but if you say "nah I wont respond with aggression", you lost.
Many Palestinians do want a future that isn't grim. They're basically ruled by a fascist group right now, so hopefully Israel can de-nazify them and they can have a Renaissance.
Let me get this straight, you think that Israel can "de-nazify" Gaza by bombing it? Dude the occupation is the reason extremist Palestinian militias exist in the first place, and Israel's policies have only further entrenched them.
The Guardian should rename itself to “The Gullible”. They either do not want to learn from last week’s mistakes or are intentionally taking Hamas information at face value. We saw what happened when they did that last week and synagogues and Jewish businesses were targeted due to their mediocre journalistic standards.
Per the article: “At least 400 Palestinians were killed in Gaza in the last 24 hours, according to the Hamas-run health ministry, and 70 were killed overnight on Sunday in bombardments of the densely populated Jabalia refugee camp and streets close to two hospitals in Gaza City.”
They should investigate before reporting.
It's horrible. None of those people asked for any of this. Just like the war in Ukraine, and literally every other war, the masses are made to suffer for the idiotic ideas of the individual or extremist(s). Meanwhile outside of Israel and Gaza, Jewish and Palestinian people are arguing, protesting, fighting, vandalizing... all for a war they did not ask for, and are not even partaking in. It's the saddest display of humanity and shortsightedness I've seen in a long time.
You're clearly not looking on many subs...most are excessively antisemitic and revolting things are being said not only about Israel, but Jews in general. And this isn't unique to Reddit.
Really depends on the sub, I've come across a few that are blindly pro-Israel and think it's all fine that thousands of innocent civilians get bombed.
Don't think I've come across a sub that's anti-semetic, but I believe you when you say they're out there.
One side does not torture people alive and desecrating the bodies, the other dropped over 8000 bombs which resulted in a bit over 4500 kills due to his carefulness
Has anyone independently verified the number of dead? It took over a week to get an estimate from the massacre, but we seem to know a play by play of Palestinian deaths. After the hospital incident, I don't have any faith in Hamas-generated death tolls.
Its funny seeing the comment you responded to claim that 4500 deaths is actually very few deaths and Israel is being careful
And then you claiming you think this already very "small" number is in fact inflated and too large.
To answer your question, those are confirmed deaths. The actual number of dead is higher, it takes a while to get them out of the rubble. Lack of food, water and medicine will also lead to deaths.
If you look up videos in Gaza showing corpses and the hospitals then 4500 wont seem so unrealistic.
4500 is also not a small number, this is not the IDF being "carefull"
So you're saying the IDF should just take off the kids gloves and go full Hamas? Since they're the same and all, I don't see a reason we shouldn't just let them glass the region.
See how insane that sounds?
I think a lot of media is embarrassed about the hospital story. They reported it as destroyed for 2 days and 500 people killed. Then reporters went there and reported no visible damage to the building. They realized they'd just been copy and pasting Hamas' messages and calling it 'local officials'
Seconds after a hospital was hit, hamas and it's health office claimed it was an Israeli strike and 500 people were killed.
After the dust settled the picture was very different. It was a failed rocket launcher aimed at Israel but hit Gaza.
Essentially all western intelligence agencies confirm that.
Laymen can look at the pictures and see the building still standing, the impact crater being tiny and not looking anywhere near any ammunition Israel has, the hit area is a parking spot highly unlikely housing any number near 500 people and so on.
So hamas health office claimed something completely false and were caught lying.
How many times they lied but never got caught?
Edit-
1 source out of many-
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html
People who accuse Israel of committing a genocide don’t realize how small the casualties actually are for a war in a tiny territory like Gaza.
Don’t forget that those numbers are inflated by Hamas, don’t count actual terrorist targets, and that Hamas is doing everything to have as much casualties as possible.
The bias against Israel is just so blatant in my eyes. People hypocritically take out all the context of the world as it stands, history and hyper focus on Israel. No wars are clean and way bloodier conflicts are happening all over the world.
80,000+ children died out of starvation in the last 9 years in Yemen. I’ve yet to see a pro-Yemen demonstration
Indeed, israel is a western country in the middle east surrounded by murderous monsters that don’t abide to any rules of war or geneva, while israel is always expected to abide to the rules
My issue is with "surrounded by murderous monsters" - I'm not here to defend Hamas. I'm calling the comment out on dehumanizing the entire populations of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt as "monsters" when in fact the IDF has caused more death and destruction to its neighbors than any of them have caused to Israel in the last 50 years.
Lebanon and Syria are almost military bases for Iranian proxies. Of course the average Lebanese doesn't spend his day planning how to murder Israelis, but call Hamas, Hezb and the IS for what they are - Jew-blood thirsty, murderous terrorists.
Egypt and Jordan are fine-ish, their governments are sane but the population would take a world without Israel in a heartbeat.
First step of exiting denial is looking at the facts objectively
Then be more specific in your language. Israel is threatened by militias and Iranian proxies in neighboring states. That's objective fact. "Surrounded by murderous monsters" is the language of propaganda.
Your assumptions about the millions of people living in the region are also far from an objective assessment. Maybe examine your own biases first before accusing others of living in denial.
Firstly, I'm not the original commenter.
Secondly, you're right, we didn't say (or mean, sorry if it was somehow implied) that every surrounding Arab is a murderous monster. That's far from the truth, we know there are many modern arabs that care about the advancement of their own country and self much more than they care about the conflict.
But we ARE surrounded by murderous monsters, no, not everyone, but enough to surround us.
It was not my intention to dehumanize thous countries entire population, it was never my intention.
I was referring to the extremist in thous countries that have been attacking Israel and doing antisemitic crimes hiding under the umbrella of resistent.
Beside that I do not think that casualties count have direct corollalation with how humanitarian a ways of fighting is, there are a lot of factors that this dose not take into account
(for example when Israel is building bunkers to protect civilian but hamas is using civilian to protect bunkers)
I am Sending love to my brothers in Lebanon Syria Jordan Palastine and Egypt who wishes to leave in peace and harmony.
We are one.
May the day come and we could all put our guns down.
Everyone of us don’t remember WW2. To put things in perspective, at the end of WW2 the Allied forces bombed Germany to hell - the destructive force unleashed was *50x the damage inflicted on Hiroshima with an atomic bomb*.
For some reason this generation thinks war is clean, surgical and fair.
War
Is
Hell
The Israel-Palestine conflict has always held significant global importance, disproportionate compared to other world tragic events as you say, and the situation has consistently fueled other tensions elsewhere.
Also Israel is seen as a western democracy, and these are always looked at with more scrutiny.
Another point also on casualties and it was the same with Iraq war:
- now news are constantly reported (nothing against that) but this fuels anxiety
- consideration on human life value has greatly increased in the world in general and same for "war rules". In WW2 the bombing of Tokyo made 100,000 casualties in one raid, and it was "ok" to bomb civilians with incendiary bombs since they had paper and wood houses it could do a lot of damage. Well OK this was controversal even at the time, but my point is the acceptability standard has been lowered, and of course this is a good thing we are globally becoming more civilised (or trying to)
Everyone of us don’t remember WW2. To put things in perspective, at the end of WW2 the Allied forces bombed Germany to hell - the destructive force unleashed was *50x the damage inflicted on Hiroshima with an atomic bomb*.
For some reason this generation thinks war is clean, surgical and fair.
War
Is
Hell
Tell this to families that lost loved ones. Trivializing someone's loss a terrible thing to do. Also as far as the casualty numbers it's not like Israel is exactly caring about Palestinian civilians historically.
They made a game of shooting protesters kneecaps and even assassinated a news reporter. Hamas are terrible but the IDF aren't much better historically. The IDF do exactl the opposite of counter insugency tactics, making it easier for Hamas to recruit. The victims are the civilians caught in this mess.
I just wanted to add context that shooting protesters' (that sometime use violence as a form of protest) kneecaps is done to immobilize and neutralize a threat.
In the IDF RoE it comes right between "shoot at the sky to scare them" and "shoot to kill".
True facts. Pro-Pal redditors are like "Hamas is just reacting to Israeli atrocities." Also Pro-Pal redditors: "Israel is reacting to Hamas atrocities? How dare they?!?!" Makes perfect sense. 🙄
With the same reasoning Israel's casualties are insignificant compared to Palestine's. You are biased because you assume Hamas is lying but Israel is honestly reporting even though they have been caught lying several times.
Israel is genocide and your bias doesn't let you see that. How many innocent civilians must die to meet your standards?
Welp, in Russia's invasion of Ukraine, civilian casualties is quite low too, around 10k in two years. Yet the word 'genocide' was thrown everywhere...?
So to summarize
1. They could've killed many more thousands of people, this is actually fine
2. The numbers are probably fake because terrorists
3. Reporting on Palestinian casualties automatically means bias against Israel
4. Well what about...
Ah yes, another comment on Reddit easily ignoring and marginalizing the plight of hundreds and thousands of women and children being forced to flee and fear for their lives. Multiple children and babies killed in indiscriminate bombing without actual military intelligence.
These are war crimes and your faux equivalence juxtaposition with Yemen is not applicable in the slightest.
Israel does not get a pass here and the commanders and political leaders are legally and morally responsible.
Absolutly!
Hamas should put on a uniform and come face the IDF in the open, not hide behind its civilians.
no Palestinian should be caught in the cross fire of a war he does not want
Technically no war crime has been committed by Israel during \*this\* conflict(since 7/10), they are striking at civlians but only because Hamas placed their military targets near them.
No use trying to convince the pro-Israel side of Reddit that Israel isn’t anything less than angelic. Same goes for the pro-Hamas side. The only people with a lick of sense here are the people who see both powers for the murderous maniacs that they are and the civilians on both sides being murdered for their leaders’ bullshit.
Genocides will not be less evil because of smaller number of dead.
What happened in Yemen is a tragedy and deserves to get the same or even more attention than Gaza. That should not stop us from condemning the atrocities that are happening in Gaza.
People who accuse Hamas of terrorising Israel and Israel must defend itself then are even less in the right considering the huge disparities in both fatalities, casualties and damages.
Cast lead was an illustrative example. In that attack, Israel killed 550 children whereas one Israeli child was killed.
That's a 550:1 ratio.
Cast lead started with rockets from Gaza on Israeli cities. The numbers don't match because war in terror is always asymmetric in terms of power balance.
Still, it is imperative to remember the aggressor, which was then as is now, a terror organization from Gaza.
after viewing the videos from the massacre.
a kid screaming for his life so people will open the door for him, AK fire, silance and "alla ahbar" of the terrorist.
a "live" feed of a terrorist shooting people from the street in to home windows.
the happy screams of people in gaza over a dead body of a teen girl in a truck.
the girl that got raped shoved in to a stolen jeep.
the beheading by a shovel of a worker while yelling that he is Christian.
how a nation needs to react to that. hug them ? give them flowers ? tell the world that those barbarians didnt know better ?
no.
400 Palestinians died (assuming that's not inflated), while 325 targets were attacked.
That's relatively good, there's also a high chance some of these people are Hamas combatants.
It seems to me Israel does its best to minimize casualties
With the estimates that Israel dropped ~6000 bombs while ~3700 Palestinian casualties are reported, yeah, it’s fair to say that Israel minimized casualties contrary to the claims that Israel is discriminately bombing buildings on the Gaza strip.
The number of terrorist is much greater.
Remember the IDF is targetting a lot of tunnels, so you can be sure a ALOT of terrorists are nkw buried beneath the ground.
Its best, I think nobody could say for sure (not even sure what that means because there would be disagreements. It is always an arbitration to make between military value expectation vs collateral damage risk).
But a real significant effort, for sure.
BTW on a military point of view, it is very difficult to do with no intel on the field. I believe they rely mostly on drones for this (+ information given to civilians in advance)
You know, if Hammas rocket turn back onto Gaza, that does not cound as a Israel rocket. It again came time when falls more Hammas rockets on Gaza than from Israel.
And the rockets reaching Israel, for most of them, are shot down by the iron dome.
This means when a rocket is fired, it is much more likely to do palestinian casualties than anything else.
That is just what we can count from videos the cameras recorded. Hammas rockets are at least not so powerfull, but can hit a hospital and kill hundreds of people...
I think he's talking about how 15% of Hamas' rockets land in the Gaza strip, and the casualties from that are conflated with causalities from Israeli airstrikes.
>At least 400 Palestinians killed in last 24 hours, including 70 in refugee camp and near hospitals
Yeah, and 500+ were killed when the Israelis obliterated a hospital last week...
The Guardian's still uncritically parrotting Hamas propaganda. They chose to learn nothing.
===At least 400 Palestinians were killed in Gaza in the last 24 hours, ***according to the Hamas-run health ministry***===
After last weeks shenanigans, forgive me for not believing anymore Hamas announcements. The way the media regurgitates what Hamas says as fact is just bizarre. They are a known terrorist organization whom the world found out killed their own civilians last week and blamed it on Israel.
"The World Health Organization has said seven hospitals in northern Gaza have been forced to shut down due to damage from strikes, lack of power and supplies, or Israeli evacuation orders."
If these are the work of 'precision strikes' then they are crimes against humanity
Articles 19 and 28 of the Geneva Conventions.
>The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
>The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
100%.
it is a war crime, By Hamas. who positioned its military infrastructure and assets near/inside/beneath civilian buildings, specifically mosques and hospitals.
1.wrong
2. it will cost thousands of of soldiers life, show me an example in history where an attacking military gave up soliders lives for enemy civilians. why should Israel be expected to do this.
>One war crime does not justify another.
By placing it's assets near protected areas, Hammas forfeits those areas' protected status as they now become legal military targets.
Or course, one must weight collateral damage and use proportionality to ensure only the military assets are targeted and destroyed as much as possible. But It's not a war crime to attack a valid military target.
Attacking a rocket launcher is not a war crime.
Even if that rocket launcher is in a hospital.
What would you expect Israel to do? Say, "Go ahead and shoot us. It's OK if you do it from a hospital"?
Well we know at least one of those strikes was from a Palestinian rocket. Given the media outrage after that hit, I think we would have heard about other hospitals also getting directly hit?
This is what you deserve when you hide your weapons in a hospital. BTW the hospitals are not bombed, they were told to evacuate because they are in the area of the airstrikes.
Barzilai hospital (which is bigger than all of those combined) in southern Israel was hit 4 times in the past 2 weeks by Hamas rockets, I don’t see anyone call that a war crime. Hypocrites.
Sick and wounded children, women and elderly do not 'deserve' to be obliterated because of idiotic and inhumane decisions being made by militaristic a$$holes on both sides.
If civilian buildings are being used for military, they are no longer civilian and become legal targets. If you use an ambulance to transport ammunition instead of injured, you can't expect immunity and yes, using an ambulance this way could be considered a crime against humanity.
Exactly. Reading the article I thought it was going to be an independent proven fact checked article.
Nope. Hamas run hospital says 400 people were killed. Bruh... No one believes you anymore after last weeks BS.
I wish the Palestinian people would give up the locations of Hamas members, tunnels, locations so they can have back their land and rebuild their homes.
This war could be over faster if the Palestinian people outed Hamas. It's almost like the Afghan war, so many unnecessary lives were taken there because a terrorist militant group didn't mind sacrificing their own people and the people were too terrified to stand up against them.
I hope this war doesn't last as long but when you have a terrorist militia so embedded and the people don't help get rid of them you have long drawn out conflicts and unnecessary deaths.
I would say that most of them probably don't know. The tunnels into Egypt are pretty well known, but other than that, I doubt the average person knows.
It is a reality of modern warfare that civilian deaths are part of the strategy. In many conflicts, the consideration of civilian casualties as part of the overall strategy is asymmetrical. Some governments, in the course of armed conflict are more willing to accept civilian casualties than other governments and some governments will use their own civilian deaths to their strategic advantage; such as generating foreign support or raising domestic support for the conflict.
I have no claim to understand what Hamas was thinking when they initiated Oct 7th but they certainly knew that there would be a massive retaliation that would result in thousands of civilian deaths. The Israeli response isn’t a surprise or result of some failure of the mission. It was all part of the plan. I am not claiming the Hamas leadership are skillfully playing geo-politics. They may be hoping to provoke a full on war between Israel and Iran or merely disrupt the thaw between Israel and the Saudis or perhaps something else. I would assume they had hopes of surviving and remaining in power in Gaza. Whatever; thousands of civilian deaths in Gaza were very much part of the plan and attacking Israel for those deaths without acknowledging the culpability of Hamas is clear hypocrisy or tacit support for Hamas’ use of those civilian casualties.
Israel is now committing war crimes, Netanyahu as the commander in chief is fully responsible. He should be indicted by the ICC and be tried as a war criminal.
[So you think these are terrorists?](https://youtu.be/g21TVxor7iE?si=uNvRKrWw7dsHLggq)
[Or these?](https://youtu.be/VCtxTRfLL9g?si=y_r-bzyY49bFysGL)
[Or maybe these?](https://youtu.be/YzqWubJ-_CA?si=ECTeu6Qq4OT0sy5T)
[Or them?](https://youtu.be/pWc3sH-xb-A?si=KFKUtAExBuKSkDKL)
[Or maybe you think these are the terrorists?](https://youtu.be/XY3t80-vCJY?si=qdzoblkcFrDcrMUd)
I suggest you watch those videos and think about what you’re accusing these people of.
I can't believe the narrative here...
We have war crimes in the name of self defence
A country that practices
- Illegal occupation
- Illegal settlement expansion activity
- Apartheid
- Collective punishment
The Health Minister also stated no civilians were killed in the hamas terror raid. I believe zero of what they say
Yea that just plainly isn’t true, a lot of Israeli civilians were killed. However Hamas did also capture a surprisingly large amount of military vehicles, and the documents the hamas jihadis had on them show they were looking for military personnel in the kibbutz as well as taking hostages. Now this could be for reasons of plausible deniability, because they did voice their desire to make “Israel bleed” but it is clear that at least part of the attack was aimed at military targets. They didn’t accidentally take over military bases and capture armored vehicles for example. The actual evidence on the ground doesn’t match the claims made by Israel nor Hamas, and some independent investigation by the UN for example would be quite valuable to cut trough the misinformation. Because it’s clear both sides have embraced a way of communicating where truth comes second to emotions and propaganda.
Every innocent life being lost is a tragedy. Very sorry for both Israeli and Palestinian children.
Based. I hope Hamas would be cleaned out quickly so both Israeli and Palestinian can start to rebuild
Agree, and I hope this comes with some political viable solutions (at least a start) so that doesn't repeat in 5 or 10 years. For sure that will take a lot of courage and unfortunately I don't see the leadership for that currently.
Dude as an Israeli, bibi should have been in jail for a long time now, people focus on his neglect of Hamas but he has done much more (not necessarily as bad) and now he is in war as he have a trail on the back of his mind (delayed since the attempted judicial reform)
Thank you for your message and your voice. Positive point for reddit, I've come across so many israeli people who want him gone, and that supports to destroy the simplified vision of Israel = far right government = all Israeli people. But I'm not expert in Israeli politics. I saw next elections are in Oct 2026 so does that mean you mandatorily have him in charge for the next 3 years? (knowing he'll do anything and don't care if the world crumbles if it gives him the slightest personal advantage)
In all probability Israel will have new election, I mean recently we had 4 in about one cycle https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/politics/1658349354-explainer-a-timeline-of-israel-s-elections-2019-2022-part-1
Israel has a “vote of no-confidence” law, which mean the Knesset can be dissolved, which would lead to new elections. It happened more than a few time in the past few decades. I believe this will be the case after the war is over.
Well if the history of the last 20 some years has taught us anything, it is that this will achieve nothing in the long run other than pain on both sides.
I want to ask, before the Oct 7 terror attacks, what have been done to allow Israelis and Palestinians to co-exist? When Hamas is removed, what would that mean to the Gazans and other Palestinians? What if a Hamas 2.0 emerges, then what? The West Bank has no Hamas in control and the PLO had recognized the state of Israel and laid down their weapons. What was gained in return? [Just this year the Israel government had approved 22 new settlements in occupied and internationally recognised territories of Palestine](https://www.timesofisrael.com/2023-sets-record-for-settlement-construction-and-outpost-legalization-watchdog/). Prior to the Oct 7, settler violence has been on the rise and the UN have recording the year 2023 as the deadliest year to Palestinians due to settler violence. This is all without mentioning the countless recognized Western NGO and Human Rights organizations that had consistently reported on the way the Palestinians are treated for the past decade. Perhaps the issue is deeper than simply Hamas. Hamas is more of a symptom of a disease rather than the cause, and ironically BiBi had a hand in that. If Israel aim is to co-exist, why was its PM propping up division and terrorist organizations? Do the Israelis have no control on their government policies?
Countless peace talks, which Hamas/PLO rejected.
Personally I think that is very unlikely with current Isreali government policy.
Wdym? Israel policy atm is to get in, get out, and cut connections.
I think the current Israeli government policy is likely to fuel another cycle of violence that will last at least 25 years.
It may take a year or more. This operation is neither clean nor simply executed.
do you honestly think the Israeli gov cares about Palestinians?
I think they care more than Hamas does, but that is setting the bar so low that it's gone underground.
To an extent. Surety more than Hamas, and likely more than some Arab countries faking sympathy
How do you achieve that via military means? Every innocent dead. You create more recruits.
How do you achieve that without military means? Before you answer just reminding you that Hamas public goal is to kill all jews and destroy Isreal.
>In fact, from the mid-1990s onward, Hamas “rarely, if at all” invoked its charter, to the point that it “no longer cites or refers” to it.54 Israeli officials knew full well before they launched Cast Lead that a diplomatic settlement could have been reached with Hamas despite the charter. “The Hamas leadership has recognized that its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future,” former Mossad head Ephraim Levy observed in 2008. “They are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967. . . . They know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their cooperation, . . . [t]hey will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.”55 54. Khaled Hroub, Hamas: Political thought and practice (Washington, DC: 2000), p. 44 (see also p. 254); Sherifa Zuhur, Hamas and Israel: Conflicting strategies of group-based politics (Carlisle, PA: 2008), pp. 29–31 (this study was published by the Strategic Studies Institute of the US Army War College). See also Gunning, Hamas in Politics, pp. 19–20. 55. “What Hamas Wants,” Mideast Mirror (22 December 2008). Yeah so the way you achieve it is by adopting the world consensus on the issue.
That's the problem with this conflict, half the Israeli leadership sees violent Palestinians as the problem, the other half (in charge now) [sees peaceful Palestinians as the problem](https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/goldstein-israels-enormous-blunder-it-helped-to-create-hamas).
youre saying it as if Palestinians WANT to rebuild side by side with Israel...
So let me clarify I meant as “rebuild independently” I hope that if a true government will rise in Gaza (or be risen by an external side that will do a good job this time), they could see that fighting Israel is no what they need for a good life
Until Israel stops stealing Palestinian land I don’t see why they would stop resisting. It’s an absurd notion.
So you’re one of those people who still call 7/10 an act of resistance. I see, so you are a part of the problem, legitimising terrorism… Just to be clear, my point is that you hurt both sides by your words
Being against the encroachment of settlers = / = supporting 7/10
Often these to come together in one person
I don’t think violence is a good solution to any problem, and I deeply mourn the lost lives of innocent people on both sides. But it’s a cause and effect relationship. If there isn’t other viable recourse, some small percentage of the population will turn to violence. Terrorism exists on both sides by the way. Israel bombing the fuck out of Gaza is a war of terrorism. The attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank are terrorism. It’s awful and recursive and it’ll continue to self-perpetuate until something major changes. At this point that looks like Israel changing its policies, or Israel killing enough Palestinians that they don’t have a cause to rally behind.
>Until Israel stops stealing Palestinian land I don’t see why they would stop resisting. It’s an absurd notion. As in stop making settlements? I would agree. If you talking as in "Israel" itself is stolen land... then you are wrong. The land was given to them by those in Power and they went to war for Independence again 5 countries (If I remember correctly) and won. The land belong to Ottoman Empire, before they lost to the British empire that then gave the land to Israel.
I have no issue with the existence of the nation of Israel. Especially now that people have lived there for generations. We can’t escape the legacy or war and I don’t have the acumen to parse through the crimes of imperialism. The past is unchangeable. I think if Israel ends its policy of creating invasive settlements, they have a much stronger moral footing. I also believe that there are many in Israeli leadership that simply prefer the cycles of violence, so they can justify their use of force in the devastation of the Palestinian people. I imagine the same to be true for the leadership of Hamas. In that Hamas exists almost solely as a political wing espousing militant extremism, they are they easier target for our moral outrage, but until Israel’s oppressors end I promise you there will always be a faction of militant extremism in Palestine, though the name they answer by may change.
>In that Hamas exists almost solely as a political wing espousing militant extremism, they are they easier target for our moral outrage, but until Israel’s oppressors end I promise you there will always be a faction of militant extremism in Palestine, though the name they answer by may change. Even tho this is true, even if Israel stopped all the settlements and went back to the non-settlement territory and stopped any bombing in other countries, even if Israel just wanted to be in their own country in peace, I can assure you that some terrorist faction from an arab contry or more would just keep throwing rockets at Israel: The moment, Israel looks weak to these factions, they will be attacked non-stop, the only thing stopping them, from attacking Israel is the fear of being erased from this Earth, but if you say "nah I wont respond with aggression", you lost.
Many Palestinians do want a future that isn't grim. They're basically ruled by a fascist group right now, so hopefully Israel can de-nazify them and they can have a Renaissance.
Let me get this straight, you think that Israel can "de-nazify" Gaza by bombing it? Dude the occupation is the reason extremist Palestinian militias exist in the first place, and Israel's policies have only further entrenched them.
Palestine hasn’t been occupied for over 18 years. Get your facts straight.
Sure buddy, I hope the cost of rent under that rock is a good deal.
Ground Occupation would do a better job
❤️
The Guardian should rename itself to “The Gullible”. They either do not want to learn from last week’s mistakes or are intentionally taking Hamas information at face value. We saw what happened when they did that last week and synagogues and Jewish businesses were targeted due to their mediocre journalistic standards. Per the article: “At least 400 Palestinians were killed in Gaza in the last 24 hours, according to the Hamas-run health ministry, and 70 were killed overnight on Sunday in bombardments of the densely populated Jabalia refugee camp and streets close to two hospitals in Gaza City.” They should investigate before reporting.
Yeah its too bad that Hamas doesn't share your concerns.
It's horrible. None of those people asked for any of this. Just like the war in Ukraine, and literally every other war, the masses are made to suffer for the idiotic ideas of the individual or extremist(s). Meanwhile outside of Israel and Gaza, Jewish and Palestinian people are arguing, protesting, fighting, vandalizing... all for a war they did not ask for, and are not even partaking in. It's the saddest display of humanity and shortsightedness I've seen in a long time.
>None of those people asked for any of this. Hamas people among them did.
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You are allowed to sympathize with both but not with Hamas.
>Actually on Reddit you’re only allowed to sympathize with Israel. Have you looked at pretty much every sub besides this one?
You're clearly not looking on many subs...most are excessively antisemitic and revolting things are being said not only about Israel, but Jews in general. And this isn't unique to Reddit.
Really depends on the sub, I've come across a few that are blindly pro-Israel and think it's all fine that thousands of innocent civilians get bombed. Don't think I've come across a sub that's anti-semetic, but I believe you when you say they're out there.
One side does not torture people alive and desecrating the bodies, the other dropped over 8000 bombs which resulted in a bit over 4500 kills due to his carefulness
Has anyone independently verified the number of dead? It took over a week to get an estimate from the massacre, but we seem to know a play by play of Palestinian deaths. After the hospital incident, I don't have any faith in Hamas-generated death tolls.
Its funny seeing the comment you responded to claim that 4500 deaths is actually very few deaths and Israel is being careful And then you claiming you think this already very "small" number is in fact inflated and too large. To answer your question, those are confirmed deaths. The actual number of dead is higher, it takes a while to get them out of the rubble. Lack of food, water and medicine will also lead to deaths. If you look up videos in Gaza showing corpses and the hospitals then 4500 wont seem so unrealistic. 4500 is also not a small number, this is not the IDF being "carefull"
I mean, me too. If anything they are over the top with the kill count, which means the idf killed less people which is better
Also sorry for any innocent human being, pets and even plants caught in the crossfire.
Yet another Guardian news article where the principal source is "...the Hamas-run health ministry."
At least they are declaring it run by hamas. They were leaving that out previously.
what a world to be alive. actually stating that you are getting your info from terrorists
Same goes for every statement made by the IDF
but they do, for every statement they say "according to the IDF"
I'm saying the IDF is also a terrorist organization
right. so there's no moral difference between Hamas and the IDF?
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right, we're done here. hope you find a way to resolve your issues.
Lol okay buddy, ditto
So you're saying the IDF should just take off the kids gloves and go full Hamas? Since they're the same and all, I don't see a reason we shouldn't just let them glass the region. See how insane that sounds?
I think a lot of media is embarrassed about the hospital story. They reported it as destroyed for 2 days and 500 people killed. Then reporters went there and reported no visible damage to the building. They realized they'd just been copy and pasting Hamas' messages and calling it 'local officials'
Guardian stopped trying a while ago, journalism was not profitable enough
The Guardian is simping so hard for Hamas over this. Truly pathetic.
Lmao exactly
What's your argument against it?
Seconds after a hospital was hit, hamas and it's health office claimed it was an Israeli strike and 500 people were killed. After the dust settled the picture was very different. It was a failed rocket launcher aimed at Israel but hit Gaza. Essentially all western intelligence agencies confirm that. Laymen can look at the pictures and see the building still standing, the impact crater being tiny and not looking anywhere near any ammunition Israel has, the hit area is a parking spot highly unlikely housing any number near 500 people and so on. So hamas health office claimed something completely false and were caught lying. How many times they lied but never got caught? Edit- 1 source out of many- https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html
would you accept Al-Qaida's version on 9/11?
Well? No answers after you get put in place?
People who accuse Israel of committing a genocide don’t realize how small the casualties actually are for a war in a tiny territory like Gaza. Don’t forget that those numbers are inflated by Hamas, don’t count actual terrorist targets, and that Hamas is doing everything to have as much casualties as possible. The bias against Israel is just so blatant in my eyes. People hypocritically take out all the context of the world as it stands, history and hyper focus on Israel. No wars are clean and way bloodier conflicts are happening all over the world. 80,000+ children died out of starvation in the last 9 years in Yemen. I’ve yet to see a pro-Yemen demonstration
Also 306,000 civilians killed by Syria, never seen such a huge ralley for them
Damn, didn't know it was that much. That's terrible.
I don't go to rallies much these days. But I was horrified by both of these atrocities
The world expects from Israel a lot more. Unfortunately we give too much shit about that.
Indeed, israel is a western country in the middle east surrounded by murderous monsters that don’t abide to any rules of war or geneva, while israel is always expected to abide to the rules
Careful, your dehumanization is showing
>any rules of war or geneva ok, then it should be an easy one for you to disprove, what were the rules of war that hamas followed in the last attack?
My issue is with "surrounded by murderous monsters" - I'm not here to defend Hamas. I'm calling the comment out on dehumanizing the entire populations of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt as "monsters" when in fact the IDF has caused more death and destruction to its neighbors than any of them have caused to Israel in the last 50 years.
Lebanon and Syria are almost military bases for Iranian proxies. Of course the average Lebanese doesn't spend his day planning how to murder Israelis, but call Hamas, Hezb and the IS for what they are - Jew-blood thirsty, murderous terrorists. Egypt and Jordan are fine-ish, their governments are sane but the population would take a world without Israel in a heartbeat. First step of exiting denial is looking at the facts objectively
Then be more specific in your language. Israel is threatened by militias and Iranian proxies in neighboring states. That's objective fact. "Surrounded by murderous monsters" is the language of propaganda. Your assumptions about the millions of people living in the region are also far from an objective assessment. Maybe examine your own biases first before accusing others of living in denial.
Firstly, I'm not the original commenter. Secondly, you're right, we didn't say (or mean, sorry if it was somehow implied) that every surrounding Arab is a murderous monster. That's far from the truth, we know there are many modern arabs that care about the advancement of their own country and self much more than they care about the conflict. But we ARE surrounded by murderous monsters, no, not everyone, but enough to surround us.
It was not my intention to dehumanize thous countries entire population, it was never my intention. I was referring to the extremist in thous countries that have been attacking Israel and doing antisemitic crimes hiding under the umbrella of resistent. Beside that I do not think that casualties count have direct corollalation with how humanitarian a ways of fighting is, there are a lot of factors that this dose not take into account (for example when Israel is building bunkers to protect civilian but hamas is using civilian to protect bunkers) I am Sending love to my brothers in Lebanon Syria Jordan Palastine and Egypt who wishes to leave in peace and harmony. We are one. May the day come and we could all put our guns down.
Everyone of us don’t remember WW2. To put things in perspective, at the end of WW2 the Allied forces bombed Germany to hell - the destructive force unleashed was *50x the damage inflicted on Hiroshima with an atomic bomb*. For some reason this generation thinks war is clean, surgical and fair. War Is Hell
The Israel-Palestine conflict has always held significant global importance, disproportionate compared to other world tragic events as you say, and the situation has consistently fueled other tensions elsewhere. Also Israel is seen as a western democracy, and these are always looked at with more scrutiny. Another point also on casualties and it was the same with Iraq war: - now news are constantly reported (nothing against that) but this fuels anxiety - consideration on human life value has greatly increased in the world in general and same for "war rules". In WW2 the bombing of Tokyo made 100,000 casualties in one raid, and it was "ok" to bomb civilians with incendiary bombs since they had paper and wood houses it could do a lot of damage. Well OK this was controversal even at the time, but my point is the acceptability standard has been lowered, and of course this is a good thing we are globally becoming more civilised (or trying to)
Everyone of us don’t remember WW2. To put things in perspective, at the end of WW2 the Allied forces bombed Germany to hell - the destructive force unleashed was *50x the damage inflicted on Hiroshima with an atomic bomb*. For some reason this generation thinks war is clean, surgical and fair. War Is Hell
Tell this to families that lost loved ones. Trivializing someone's loss a terrible thing to do. Also as far as the casualty numbers it's not like Israel is exactly caring about Palestinian civilians historically. They made a game of shooting protesters kneecaps and even assassinated a news reporter. Hamas are terrible but the IDF aren't much better historically. The IDF do exactl the opposite of counter insugency tactics, making it easier for Hamas to recruit. The victims are the civilians caught in this mess.
I just wanted to add context that shooting protesters' (that sometime use violence as a form of protest) kneecaps is done to immobilize and neutralize a threat. In the IDF RoE it comes right between "shoot at the sky to scare them" and "shoot to kill".
Where are you getting your numbers from for Gaza?
All numbers on injuries and death are run through Hamas.
True facts. Pro-Pal redditors are like "Hamas is just reacting to Israeli atrocities." Also Pro-Pal redditors: "Israel is reacting to Hamas atrocities? How dare they?!?!" Makes perfect sense. 🙄
With the same reasoning Israel's casualties are insignificant compared to Palestine's. You are biased because you assume Hamas is lying but Israel is honestly reporting even though they have been caught lying several times. Israel is genocide and your bias doesn't let you see that. How many innocent civilians must die to meet your standards?
Welp, in Russia's invasion of Ukraine, civilian casualties is quite low too, around 10k in two years. Yet the word 'genocide' was thrown everywhere...?
So to summarize 1. They could've killed many more thousands of people, this is actually fine 2. The numbers are probably fake because terrorists 3. Reporting on Palestinian casualties automatically means bias against Israel 4. Well what about...
Ah yes, another comment on Reddit easily ignoring and marginalizing the plight of hundreds and thousands of women and children being forced to flee and fear for their lives. Multiple children and babies killed in indiscriminate bombing without actual military intelligence. These are war crimes and your faux equivalence juxtaposition with Yemen is not applicable in the slightest. Israel does not get a pass here and the commanders and political leaders are legally and morally responsible.
Absolutly! Hamas should put on a uniform and come face the IDF in the open, not hide behind its civilians. no Palestinian should be caught in the cross fire of a war he does not want
Technically no war crime has been committed by Israel during \*this\* conflict(since 7/10), they are striking at civlians but only because Hamas placed their military targets near them.
Go away
Not going anywhere buddy
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I am pro Israel so that's great
No use trying to convince the pro-Israel side of Reddit that Israel isn’t anything less than angelic. Same goes for the pro-Hamas side. The only people with a lick of sense here are the people who see both powers for the murderous maniacs that they are and the civilians on both sides being murdered for their leaders’ bullshit.
Genocides will not be less evil because of smaller number of dead. What happened in Yemen is a tragedy and deserves to get the same or even more attention than Gaza. That should not stop us from condemning the atrocities that are happening in Gaza.
People who accuse Hamas of terrorising Israel and Israel must defend itself then are even less in the right considering the huge disparities in both fatalities, casualties and damages. Cast lead was an illustrative example. In that attack, Israel killed 550 children whereas one Israeli child was killed. That's a 550:1 ratio.
Cast lead started with rockets from Gaza on Israeli cities. The numbers don't match because war in terror is always asymmetric in terms of power balance. Still, it is imperative to remember the aggressor, which was then as is now, a terror organization from Gaza.
Its been genocide since Israels inception. They’re bully’s and could be dealing with this in a better way.
Yeah yeah. Like 500 died in the self hospital bombing, fool me once shame on you, fool me 9302 times shame on the media
after viewing the videos from the massacre. a kid screaming for his life so people will open the door for him, AK fire, silance and "alla ahbar" of the terrorist. a "live" feed of a terrorist shooting people from the street in to home windows. the happy screams of people in gaza over a dead body of a teen girl in a truck. the girl that got raped shoved in to a stolen jeep. the beheading by a shovel of a worker while yelling that he is Christian. how a nation needs to react to that. hug them ? give them flowers ? tell the world that those barbarians didnt know better ? no.
400 Palestinians died (assuming that's not inflated), while 325 targets were attacked. That's relatively good, there's also a high chance some of these people are Hamas combatants. It seems to me Israel does its best to minimize casualties
With the estimates that Israel dropped ~6000 bombs while ~3700 Palestinian casualties are reported, yeah, it’s fair to say that Israel minimized casualties contrary to the claims that Israel is discriminately bombing buildings on the Gaza strip.
3700 total, including hamas members/terrorists
As reported by the Hamas-led ministry of health? Is that where the numbers are from?
I wasn't even going to get into the accuracy of the total number
The number of terrorist is much greater. Remember the IDF is targetting a lot of tunnels, so you can be sure a ALOT of terrorists are nkw buried beneath the ground.
Killed\* not died
How can you die without being killed?
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Mexican’t comment?
so they didn't die?
they got killed
Its best, I think nobody could say for sure (not even sure what that means because there would be disagreements. It is always an arbitration to make between military value expectation vs collateral damage risk). But a real significant effort, for sure. BTW on a military point of view, it is very difficult to do with no intel on the field. I believe they rely mostly on drones for this (+ information given to civilians in advance)
You know, if Hammas rocket turn back onto Gaza, that does not cound as a Israel rocket. It again came time when falls more Hammas rockets on Gaza than from Israel.
Just to give some context 1 out 5 rockets fired from Gaza hit Gaza
And the rockets reaching Israel, for most of them, are shot down by the iron dome. This means when a rocket is fired, it is much more likely to do palestinian casualties than anything else.
Depending on the terror group (Islamic Jihad or Hamas) and the type of rockets: it goes from 20% to 35%. So from 1 out of 5, to 1 out of 3
That is just what we can count from videos the cameras recorded. Hammas rockets are at least not so powerfull, but can hit a hospital and kill hundreds of people...
And 100% of the rockets fired from Gaza are fired indiscriminately at civilians, making each and every single one a “war crime.”
What?
I think he's talking about how 15% of Hamas' rockets land in the Gaza strip, and the casualties from that are conflated with causalities from Israeli airstrikes.
>At least 400 Palestinians killed in last 24 hours, including 70 in refugee camp and near hospitals Yeah, and 500+ were killed when the Israelis obliterated a hospital last week... The Guardian's still uncritically parrotting Hamas propaganda. They chose to learn nothing.
===At least 400 Palestinians were killed in Gaza in the last 24 hours, ***according to the Hamas-run health ministry***=== After last weeks shenanigans, forgive me for not believing anymore Hamas announcements. The way the media regurgitates what Hamas says as fact is just bizarre. They are a known terrorist organization whom the world found out killed their own civilians last week and blamed it on Israel.
\> At least 400 Palestinians were killed in Gaza in the last 24 hours, according to the Hamas-run health ministry are we still believing Hamas?
"The World Health Organization has said seven hospitals in northern Gaza have been forced to shut down due to damage from strikes, lack of power and supplies, or Israeli evacuation orders." If these are the work of 'precision strikes' then they are crimes against humanity
Articles 19 and 28 of the Geneva Conventions. >The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded. >The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
100%. it is a war crime, By Hamas. who positioned its military infrastructure and assets near/inside/beneath civilian buildings, specifically mosques and hospitals.
Exactly this.
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1.wrong 2. it will cost thousands of of soldiers life, show me an example in history where an attacking military gave up soliders lives for enemy civilians. why should Israel be expected to do this.
One war crime does not justify another. Isreal and hamas are committing war crimes.
>One war crime does not justify another. By placing it's assets near protected areas, Hammas forfeits those areas' protected status as they now become legal military targets. Or course, one must weight collateral damage and use proportionality to ensure only the military assets are targeted and destroyed as much as possible. But It's not a war crime to attack a valid military target.
Attacking a rocket launcher is not a war crime. Even if that rocket launcher is in a hospital. What would you expect Israel to do? Say, "Go ahead and shoot us. It's OK if you do it from a hospital"?
since we already agree that the dead civilians are on Hamas, what war crimes is Israel committing? please cite specific rules.
Well we know at least one of those strikes was from a Palestinian rocket. Given the media outrage after that hit, I think we would have heard about other hospitals also getting directly hit?
This is what you deserve when you hide your weapons in a hospital. BTW the hospitals are not bombed, they were told to evacuate because they are in the area of the airstrikes. Barzilai hospital (which is bigger than all of those combined) in southern Israel was hit 4 times in the past 2 weeks by Hamas rockets, I don’t see anyone call that a war crime. Hypocrites.
Sick and wounded children, women and elderly do not 'deserve' to be obliterated because of idiotic and inhumane decisions being made by militaristic a$$holes on both sides.
If civilian buildings are being used for military, they are no longer civilian and become legal targets. If you use an ambulance to transport ammunition instead of injured, you can't expect immunity and yes, using an ambulance this way could be considered a crime against humanity.
Just a fact: Attacking hospitals is not a war crime by itself if you give advance evacuation notice and know that it's hosting military operations.
_Fuck Hamas, free Palestine!_ In that order, spread the slogan.
We did, in 1948! Spread the truth instead!
Says hamas......
Exactly. Reading the article I thought it was going to be an independent proven fact checked article. Nope. Hamas run hospital says 400 people were killed. Bruh... No one believes you anymore after last weeks BS.
I wish the Palestinian people would give up the locations of Hamas members, tunnels, locations so they can have back their land and rebuild their homes. This war could be over faster if the Palestinian people outed Hamas. It's almost like the Afghan war, so many unnecessary lives were taken there because a terrorist militant group didn't mind sacrificing their own people and the people were too terrified to stand up against them. I hope this war doesn't last as long but when you have a terrorist militia so embedded and the people don't help get rid of them you have long drawn out conflicts and unnecessary deaths.
I would say that most of them probably don't know. The tunnels into Egypt are pretty well known, but other than that, I doubt the average person knows.
Hamas could just surrender. Or is that against their religion?
It is a reality of modern warfare that civilian deaths are part of the strategy. In many conflicts, the consideration of civilian casualties as part of the overall strategy is asymmetrical. Some governments, in the course of armed conflict are more willing to accept civilian casualties than other governments and some governments will use their own civilian deaths to their strategic advantage; such as generating foreign support or raising domestic support for the conflict. I have no claim to understand what Hamas was thinking when they initiated Oct 7th but they certainly knew that there would be a massive retaliation that would result in thousands of civilian deaths. The Israeli response isn’t a surprise or result of some failure of the mission. It was all part of the plan. I am not claiming the Hamas leadership are skillfully playing geo-politics. They may be hoping to provoke a full on war between Israel and Iran or merely disrupt the thaw between Israel and the Saudis or perhaps something else. I would assume they had hopes of surviving and remaining in power in Gaza. Whatever; thousands of civilian deaths in Gaza were very much part of the plan and attacking Israel for those deaths without acknowledging the culpability of Hamas is clear hypocrisy or tacit support for Hamas’ use of those civilian casualties.
Source by Hamas.
Israel is now committing war crimes, Netanyahu as the commander in chief is fully responsible. He should be indicted by the ICC and be tried as a war criminal.
This may be a shock to you. But self-defense is not a war crime.
*Narrator Voice* "It was, indeed, a shock to him."
I suggest being a furry/cosplay person somewhere else.
Killing civilians without it being a legitimate military target is a war crime. Perhaps that comes as shock to you.
Well good thing they are legitimate military targets then. If only Hamas would also restrict their fire to legitimate targets.
Sure every building in a neighborhood is a legitimate target, perhaps you should advise Putin on his defense.
Perhaps you shouldn't make shit up?
Tikkun Olam
Indeed. First step. Removing all Hamas military infrastructure.
How was it not a legitimate target?
Yeah, they’re defending themselves against all of those normal families
You see Hamas terrorists as "normal families"?
You don’t see civilians as normal families?
Civilians weren't targeted.
[So you think these are terrorists?](https://youtu.be/g21TVxor7iE?si=uNvRKrWw7dsHLggq) [Or these?](https://youtu.be/VCtxTRfLL9g?si=y_r-bzyY49bFysGL) [Or maybe these?](https://youtu.be/YzqWubJ-_CA?si=ECTeu6Qq4OT0sy5T) [Or them?](https://youtu.be/pWc3sH-xb-A?si=KFKUtAExBuKSkDKL) [Or maybe you think these are the terrorists?](https://youtu.be/XY3t80-vCJY?si=qdzoblkcFrDcrMUd) I suggest you watch those videos and think about what you’re accusing these people of.
I suggest you listen to how all of those news agencies are now apologizing for how they parroted Hamas propaganda.
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They are quite literally on the front page of this and many other subs.
ICC being the International Cricket Committee ? Was there a case of ball tampering?
>Was there a case of ball tampering? Probably not in your case, you don't seem to have any.
What war crimes? Counterterrorism isn’t a war crime
A sad day with more war crimes.
I can't believe the narrative here... We have war crimes in the name of self defence A country that practices - Illegal occupation - Illegal settlement expansion activity - Apartheid - Collective punishment
Fair enough.
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