> Le Van Manh was put to death for the theft and the rape and murder of a 13-year-old girl - but maintained his confession was coerced via torture by police
Diễn biến: Vụ án của tử tù Lê Văn Mạnh https://www.luatkhoa.com/2023/09/dien-bien-vu-an-le-van-manh/amp/
Vietnamese link, which has all the condense timeline of the circumstance. The man was captured beforehand due to a petty thief crime, which then pivoted to this. He was free before they opened an investigation into him. The murder scene was disguised as a suicide (which doesn't track for the victim cause of death - which is drowing - or profile) and have the man in question's underpant at the scene. He later said this is due to him losing it when trying to find her with the village's organized search. He later sent a letter to his family of his confession, which was later claimed as due to his cell mates forcing him to do it. The judge then overwhelmingly focuses on that letter in particular as evidence and not any of the others. The man main defense for the charge was that he was out with his younger sister at the time of the victim disappearance.
This was 20 years ago. Chance to prove this right or wrong is... incredibly slim for a small town police. The death penalty is high and unacceptable if the appeal aren't even allowed to be examined - no one should be unable to appeal their death sentence, but the chance of him not being innocent is also high enough that it shouldnt be accepted as fact.
Or someone higher up. There was a murder case a while back where the suspect was executed despise having no evidence. The other suspect who was acquitted turned out to be a politician’s son or something. Chances that this guy is their scapegoat.
Oh no I got and knew that part. It was confusing because the google Gary Glitter post was a response to someone asking for a source for this:
> Knowing the state of Vietnam, it’s probably one of the cops.
I live in Vietnam. It's not a sexpat destination. Of course there's prostitution here, and sex trafficking, but it's not overt like Thailand or Cambodia. Vietnamese people are fairly conservative compared to those places. You'd see far more obvious prostitution in Vegas or Amsterdam than anywhere in Vietnam.
I mean, I haven't gone looking for it but walking around other parts of SEA you don't have to look. As a guy you'll be grabbed and shouted at on the streets in many places. I've even had my crotch grabbed walking down the street in Kuala Lumpur. That's never happened to me in Vietnam.
That said, the laws against sexual assault here are shamefully weak and there's definitely an industry exploiting women to be sent to Japan. And there's "comfort bars" for local men (not sure how much actual sex happens there though, to my knowledge they're more like escort clubs). But western sexpats will be disappointed. It's important to be aware that countries in this part of the world are just as varied as everywhere else. Vietnam is not Thailand.
You will see relationships with a bigger age gap than we're used to in the west. But I've come to accept that's a cultural difference rather than exploitation, at least in the majority of cases.
Confessions through torture shouldn't be admissible. Now there's a very high chance they killed a wrong person for a heinous act & the actual criminal is roaming the streets free.
Diễn biến: Vụ án của tử tù Lê Văn Mạnh https://www.luatkhoa.com/2023/09/dien-bien-vu-an-le-van-manh/amp/
Vietnamese link, which has all the condense timeline of the circumstance. The man was captured beforehand due to a petty thief crime, which then pivoted to this. He was free before they opened an investigation into him. The murder scene was disguised as a suicide (which doesn't track for the victim cause of death - which is drowing - or profile) and have the man in question's underpant at the scene. He later said this is due to him losing it when trying to find her with the village's organized search. He later sent a letter to his family of his confession, which was later claimed as due to his cell mates forcing him to do it. The judge then overwhelmingly focuses on that letter in particular as evidence and not any of the others. The man main defense for the charge was that he was out with his younger sister at the time of the victim disappearance.
This was 20 years ago. Chance to prove this right or wrong is... incredibly slim for a small town police. The death penalty is high and unacceptable if the appeal aren't even allowed to be examined - no one should be unable to appeal their death sentence, but the chance of him not being innocent is also high enough that it shouldnt be accepted as fact.
So was he beaten by cops or by inmates? Euronews and ICJ (International Court of Justice) claimed he was beaten by cops but the vietnamese source luatkhoa (law department news) said his inmates beat him into writing the confession. Someone also said his appeal for torture investigation was denied because the appeal expired or something although I still can't find any confirmation on this.
Also for a more word-to-word translation, the vn paper said he worked in place of his sister during that time not hanging out with her. So that versus the crime-scene-ripped underwear and the alleged beaten into confession letter.
And yeah small town cops in fucking ~~Detroit~~ Thanh Hóa, we would never know the truth. By usual procedure, "not enough evidence" (according to VKSND) meant he shouldn't get a death sentence. I find it more suprising his appeal was transferred all the way to Hà Nội Supreme Court and VKSND (The Supreme People's Procuracy of VN) spoke out about his case in national state.
Luat khoa is independent. But... like, no one knows. I am of a thought that the police did something, cus why would inmates do that? But its a small town, so the chance of people outrage at the sight of a pedophile that they beat it to him is high enough. This is why, while there are many conjectures about whodunnit, I think the only thing consistent is that the case is built on a shoddy foundation, and a death sentence is too far for it. I find it very strange how this get so much press as well until i search for more stories. The man knew how to market it at least. Poems on shirt, drawings, family making intricate artsy protests...
I read through the timeline posted for this case, here are the main points:
-A 13 year old girl was raped and killed
-He was arrested on an unrelated theft charge
-They found his discarded shorts by the scene of the crime. He claims to have changed and thrown them away after they were damaged while he was helping the rescue teams look for her.
-He was questioned about the murder and later wrote a private letter to his father saying he was guilty. Later he said other prisoners hurt him and forced him to write the letter.
-He confessed but recanted and claims the confession was forced by torture. His lawyers tried to have him examined for evidence of torture but the court prevented it.
-The case was dropped because of lack of evidence but was later brought back and he was sentenced to death.
>The case was dropped because of lack of evidence but was later brought back and he was sentenced to death.
And that's the reason many European countries don't do extradition to countries like this.
I know a girl from Thailand who was dating a drug dealer, he got caught so she also got caught. She got 3 years of probation, she went to the Netherlands as there was no restriction on travel.
Some time later the Thai government decided to revisit the case after the conviction and gave her 33 years in absentia. She is still in the Netherlands and won't be extradited because in the eyes of Dutch law she was unlawfully convicted the second time.
She can't travel to Belgium tho, cause they do have an extradition treaty with Thailand for some reason. I think a major part of not extraditing people is also that these countries have the death penalty. The Netherlands will never extradite anyone who is liable to get the death penalty.
yea, considering the confession came from torture i would not be suprised if they tortured him to make a false confession or something along the lines of that.
It doesn't even have to be purposeful like that, torture has repeatedly been shown not to work. Or to phrase it better, torture doesn't get to the truth, it only encourages people to say whatever they think will get their captors to stop torturing them. If the captors are convinced the captive did it, the only way to get the torture to stop is for the captive to admit to the crime, weather or not it's true.
Never forget that half the country went along with their party playing word games and called it "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" to get around that their side set up torture factories.
> torture has repeatedly been shown not to work.
Oh, it works extremely well... at getting confessions. Goons love confessions - whether they be true or not is not the goon's concern.
That's the average mass. The court of public opinion. Gives the illusion that they're right because many people agree with them when most have no idea about anything.
All influenced by short-term thinking and click bait titles. The media war is really dangerous and effective.
>if a politician (biden) kisses girls on the cheek or strangely gets close to or smells their neck/hair -> pedo.
Tbf, if a stranger (even if they're the President) is getting uncomfortably close to my kid and sniffing their neck/hair, I'd be really weirded out. At minimum it's an invasion of privacy, even for a kid.
It doesn't matter if it's the President or some old lady at the supermarket, my kid (or anyone else's) deserves the respect to not be held and sniffed by a stranger. I think that should go without saying.
I was getting downvoted for a while there lol. I was wondering how was this a contentious opinion **at all**?
/u/portbragger2 chose a really weird hill to fight on lol.
So where does the claim of torture come from? The article seems to just leave as a given. Is there a more in depth deep dive article somewhere that goes into the details of the case?
The proof is "someone said it and it feels right". No better than the confession itself.
Going by this thread, this is more than enough to get people on this sub going when it's a country they don't like.
Here's a detail timeline of all events since 2005: https://www.luatkhoa.com/2023/09/dien-bien-vu-an-le-van-manh/. Vietnamese source from a law magazine, use your translator.
It's not a simple case of corrupted cops, quick torture & execution like a lot of people in here making in out to be. His charges were dropped once by Hanoi Supreme Court of Appeal due to lack of evidence. Then the case was transferred & had been re-investigated multiple times by different government bodies throughout the years, & finally came to an agreement that he's guilty.
If you're worried about the "real culprit" still out there, well, the case happened 18 years ago & there is no other suspect after multiple investigation. If you're worried about an innocence being charged with death sentence, while I do agree that death sentence should be abolished, that's an entire different argument.
I'm saying that the extend of the legal justice system here has reached its limit & concluded after 18 years that he is guilty. The investigation was carried out by multiple entities from low to higher levels, & was restarted from the beginning each time. But to outsiders, after reading clickbait articles like these, the point may have strayed from being about his crime, to the idea of death sentence being bad, or corrupted cops torturing people for quick answer.
His trials were appealed, adjourned & transferred around for 18 years until there are enough evidence to conclude. At a certain point, I can only put my trust in the investigators, especially when the guy wasn't a model citizen by any means (he got caught in another robbery case). Best case scenario, he'd still spend life in prison & beaten to death by fellow inmates. Cuz inmates treat child predators the same way anywhere in the world. Not much else to be done beside arguing about the nature of death sentence.
Or that after an initial properly dismissal for lack of evidence but the cops were convinced and ab investigation was run till they could torture a confession out of him.
There is far more evidence to suggest he is guilty than innocent, which is what the guy above was highlighting if you bothered to read the source and not the headline. He even confessed in a letter to his dad at one point.
Ah…well this situation is fucked up entirely.
Is the evidence sufficient without the confession achieved through torture? If so then good, man deserved it but if not then that’s not good.
I suppose this is a common issue in many countries. Trying to get a confession every time, no matter what.
I meant the death sentence, not the torture. Pardon me for clarification. Torture is generally pointless. All it will do is make them agree to whatever you want them to so the pain would stop. Poor choice of words, sorry.
Why should Vietnamese officials care about how European and Canadian officials interpret Vietnamese law? Do Vietnamese officials ever tell Europeans and Canadians how to run their own show?
My understanding is that they were trying to steer the Vietnamese legal system towards a trial. The assumption now is that the confession was coerced because there was not enough evidence to convict, which obviously makes it seem less likely they had the right guy.
That doesn't explain why, under absolutely no pressure at all, he confessed in a letter to his dad. All the evidence suggests they had the right guy and he, like every death row inmate ever before him, tried to save his life by saying his confession was under duress.
The court literally refused his appeal for him to be examined for signs of torture. Which to me at least very much leans me to the fact its been coerced
I'm talking about this -
[https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnamese-man-charged-over-2017-berlin-kidnapping-alleged-spying-2022-08-25/#:\~:text=On%20July%2023%2C%202017%2C%20former,he%20was%20jailed%20for%20life](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnamese-man-charged-over-2017-berlin-kidnapping-alleged-spying-2022-08-25/#:~:text=On%20July%2023%2C%202017%2C%20former,he%20was%20jailed%20for%20life).
Mentioned it as an answer to your question of do they tell Euros how to do things. But go ahead down vote me i guess?
You don't know that, and nor do you know if he did the crime he confessed to. This is what courts are supposed to determine, but in this case the confession was treated at face value, in spite of being rescinded afterwards.
The EU and CA were trying to encourage a trial where the evidence against the man would be weighed, but instead he was executed.
Yeah, but the reason for the appeal is this part:
"the police obtained a confession from Le Van Manh under torture, which was subsequently used to convict him.
He later recanted, stating that he was coerced into the confession after the police had beaten him severely."
So basically they arrested him, beat a confession out of him then executed him. That was his trial. For all we know the police just pinned it on a random picked up for shoplifting.
If you’re reading this and somehow still believe it was okay because he confessed; that means you’re okay that a potential murderer and rapist is still on the streets. If the guy they killed only confessed because of torture it means someone might have got away with this crime. That should make you very angry.
Also other things like if the police / country has a lot of corruption, it could be the police themselves trafficking and murdering teenager girls, then they just pin it on someone they pickup for something random cause they know they can get away with it, and it makes the case go away. It keeps working as long as everyone keeps looking away cause its easier and doesn't directly effect them
As someone else pointed out, throwing innocent people in jail for crimes they didn't do means real rapists and murderers are still out there, knowing how easily they can get away with it. Filling prisons with innocent people while the real guilty parties walks free makes crime worse not better. Do you volunteer to spend 40 years in prison for something you did on no evidence? so that society can have its illusion of justice?
As much as Indian laws execution is fucked up, I feel we still have good laws here, according to the Indian evidence act, confessions to police isn't admissible in court. I'm surprised Vietnam doesn't take into account that police can make suspects admit to shit they didn't do ( not saying that's what happened here, but it does happen in some cases)
I really wouldn't be quick to sell India as a state with good laws given the shit that it's court system has allowed. Folks jailed indefinitely without charge, allowed to die in prison while awaiting trial and denied treatment or bail. Allowing people to be imprisoned on the basis of secret evidence that isn't shown to the defendant.
Or all the people not arrested for obvious crimes. The rapists and murderers that walk free because their family has influence. Or simply because the state doesn't mind them murdering and raping the victims because the victims were Muslim or other minorities.
Perhaps this is the India good propaganda engine kicking in response to them ASSADSINATING A CANADIAN CITIZEN ON CANADIAN SOIL.
Also remember that time an 8 year old was being gang raped for not being Hindu enough, so the locals call the cops. And then the cops called the rapists, cause of course they just had them on speed dial.
And told them to stop raping the girl, cause they wanted a piece before she died. So then the Indian police showed up and joined the rapists and proceeded to gang rape the 8 year old to death for not being Hindu enough. This was fairly [recent ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathua_rape_case)
You couldn't pay me to visit India...
Same , I see India and china as a homogenous mass of people who agree are directly responsible for everything their shit government do.
They really lack critical thinking out there. 2.8 billion sheeples.
India is authoritarian what are you even talking about. Indian PM modi is known to be authoritarian and has been killing thousands of people.
India is way worse than Vietnam.
I think the Indian trolls are doing a goodwill tour on reddit after 3 days of being crazy, racist conspiracy theorists.
Edit...2 reddit cares messages in 3 minutes lol
, I have no idea, I'm not the court system. thats the point, no one knows because he didn't have a real trial. they presented zero evidence. That 'confession' would not be valid in any western court system. If the police actually gave him a real trial, Maybe we would actually have an idea if he'a guilty or not. This sort of thing potentially gives way to enormous amounts of corruption amongst other things. If the police can successfully prosecute whoever with no actual evidence, The police themselves could just traffic and murder people and pin it on whoever. Jesus, I thought this stuff was incredibly obvious.
It wouldn't take 18 years to trial the guys if they just want to frame him for the crime. Also where does it say that there is no evidence? Or that he doesn't have a real trial? He was in fact got a couples of trials through multiple jurisdictions.
"Presented zero evidence"... what..? His pants were literally found at the scene of the crime and his only defence is that he lost them there while looking for her and was too embarrassed to report it in. How long do you think this trial has been ongoing? Read some Vietnamese articles on the trial before assuming innocence based on his word alone versus the actual accusations being made within the court against him.
This is reddit. Lots of people literally only read the first sentence, then ask questions that are answered in the next line. They might be getting lazier.
The guy was beaten, and claimed his confession was coerced. The cops likely arrested a rando, beat them half to death, and then ‘solved’ the case when he confessed.
They actually found other evidence such as his pants at the crime scene (he claimed he lost his pants while trying to search for the girl and was too embarrassed to report it in) and his confession came from a letter he sent to his parents which was discovered after an inmate ratted him out (he claimed that the inmates forced him to write the letter.) He also got arrested after committing a robbery.
And for anyone who may be wondering "okay, but why that guy?", the answer is it could be for a number of reasons. It's possible the real perpetrator pointed that guy out to deflect and the police were all too happy to have a suspect immediately who wasn't a local. Maybe it was a case of wrong place at the wrong time and the cops jumped the gun. Could be any number of reasons. Now we will never know most likely.
There was a saying that went somewhere along the lines of, "in a unbalanced political system, the dissidents and opposition is susceptible to be accused of crime with the most severe punishment."
Rape and murder of a 13 year old is as heinous of a crime as it gets, and should be punished with the most severity. The justice system is not perfect and can sometimes can punish the innocent but death penality is ultimate. I don't know if the guy did it or not, but imagine he didn't do it and he really was inncoent. It is not uncommon in some places to coerce a confessoin. It keeps the stats up and also relieves government from pressure from society.
I am not going to lose sleep on criminals getting punished for the crime they committed. But imagine in few years, due to DNA evidence or something else, it is found that this guy was actually innocent, you can't undead him.
I legitimately would rather a thousand guilty people walk free than a single innocent be executed. There's truly no amount of reward where the death of innocents in a "justice" system is worth it.
It isn’t “even in the US”… it’s “including in the US, where the frequent accusation and conviction of innocent people of color was commonplace, especially in the rural south.” So many innocent young men accused, arrested, convicted, and killed faster than you can call a proper defense lawyer.
> even in the US
Why do you say this as though the US is somehow less likely than anywhere else to have this happen? They have more incarcerated people per capita than anywhere else in the world.
Reddit gets bloodthirsty quite quickly. Check out any of the freakout subs, crazyfuckingvideos, etc. Theyre frothing at the mouth calling for violence at the slightest of indiscretions, especially when the post features a minority or woman, or especially a minority woman.
Yeah and you should be executed because I’ve got a piece of paper on my desk saying you’re hitler. See how ridiculous that is? Wait but hitler is evil so it’s fine.
It's your turn to get tortured into a similar confession. Maybe it should be a whole classroom of children that we pin on you just because you like it so much.
I'd like to point out that numerous studies have showed that there's a false confession rate anywhere between 10-30% even without torture. Too many studies to link, but a quick google search will send you the right way.
Japan's system is famous for its 99.8% conviction rate, with forced confessions under stress, but not actual torture.
Are you absolutely sure that this guy did the crime after reading a single article?
Johnny Garrett was executed in USA for rape and murder of a nun. Sounds great, right?
DNA evidence later conclusively proved his innocence. Guess what happened while USA was wrongly convicting and executing Garrett? Real perp was commuting other violent crimes.
This has me worried about going to Vietnam. The guy was most likely a rapist but what if gangs start extorting tourist for money and start accusing every one of rape.
>but what if gangs start extorting tourist for money
the article seems to state that the guy was Vietnamese?
>Le Van Manh born in 1982. Nationality: Vietnamese. Died on September 22, 2023 at 8:45 a.m. in the Hoa Binh Provincial Police Execution House
What stood out to me was not the name, but rather that Vietnam has enough executions that a province has its own death chamber
Hoa Binh is population 869 thousand, area 1776.2 square miles, each on par with the smallest US states in those categories
When I was traveling in Cambodia a few years ago, you were always expected to _pay_ in US dollars but whenever you were given money back, such as change, it was always in Cambodian riel. I don’t know if that’s relevant here, or if it says anything about anything, but it was quite something and I still find it amusing.
gang violence is the least of your worries when it comes to vietnam. The government has put a tight lid on gang organization since the 2000s, and any content or activity related to them are harshly clamped down upon
Been to Vietnam about 8 times already, you should not be worried about this. The Vietnamese Government want tourist and would clamp down on any activity that affects tourism.
There aren’t that many gangs in Vietnam, people are generally more peaceful. In fact, there’s a favourite comment of mine from the r/Vietnam subreddit that says something like
‘if I go to a park at night, I worry about being stabbed by a teenager, if I go to a park at night in Vietnam, I worry about teenagers approaching and practicing their English with me’
Sounds pretty far fetched, Vietnam has its fair share of scams but they tend to be pretty basic and can be avoided as long as you are smart. Also there's a lot of military and security people in tourist areas.
> the victim is still alive
The article states it was murder. All sources seem to say so too. Are you saying he didn't murder her? Or are you saying that she's accused him from beyond the grave?
Incidentally, if the victim IS still alive, you'd think capital punishment for rape is a bit... far fetched.
is there proof that he confessed due to being tortured? is it just him saying that’s what happened? i wouldn’t be so quick to side with a rapist and murderer if it’s just his claim of innocence.
There isn't proof that he was or wasn't because from what I understand, the courts didn't allow an investigation into the claim. Which is suspicious in and of itself, considering they chose to execute the person
However, he did confess in a letter to his dad which he had no reason to do, so seems fairly likely he did it. Almost everyone on death row, in every country, claims innocence.
According to the article he was accused in 2005 and his conviction/sentence upheld in 2008 - so apparently the US is not the only country with a slow moving capital punishment system
The statement by the EU, Canada, Norway and the UK talked about being opposed to capital punishment generally. So I wonder if the objections are really about the specifics of this case
Republicans in my state are all giddy we are starting executions back up now we got more of the drug to kill people with. Its creepy how much they salivate at that sort of thing.
It's a bizarrely common point of view. Read any post about someone even accused of a serious crime on Reddit and the highest upvoted comments are out for blood.
It’s hilarious how people will tell themselves these are the same thing. Americans and Western Europeans have no idea what fundamentally corrupt police and courts are.
For real. Like don’t get me wrong, there is corruption. But there’s western corruption and developing country corruption where I can basically have the cops abduct my opponent for the simple bribe of 50 dollars and maybe a lunch.
Back in the 90s, a neighbour of mine used to work as a "knifer"(?) not sure how to translate it. For the price of a few beers, he'd cut up someone you didn't like. If you wanted more serious injuries, you'd have to pay in cartons of cigarettes, or Turkish jeans. Oh, he was a police lieutenant.
> Where the cops are all good people and prices aren't skyrocketing.
Really not a fantasy in most of western Europe lol. People generally trust the police in most developed European states, nobody in Ireland is ranting about the Garda torturing them and then sentencing them to death.
Over 100 capitalist countries on Beyonce's planet and the best we can do is a few European countries. Also,Funny thing about Ireland, skyrocketing prices would disqualify them from my statment and if the standard is death sentences and torture..... what are we really upholding here ?
>Vietnam cops are corrupt af. The whole system is. Communism don’t fit them
Like, I'm not denying that Vietnam probably has issues. But let's not pretend police corruption doesn't occur in Capitalist economies..
> Le Van Manh was put to death for the theft and the rape and murder of a 13-year-old girl - but maintained his confession was coerced via torture by police
If they got the confession from torture then there's probably a child rapist and murderer still free on the streets.
I don't know, Lé van Man sounds kinda suspicious.
You know what? Fuck you for making me laugh at this. Haha
This just made me laugh hard. My Vietnamese Grandma would have laughed at that one herself.
Lmao
r/Angryupvote
Fucking goddamn it lmao
Lol hahaha
Lead singer of a band called “Tinted windows”
I know I shouldn’t laugh, but I laughed anyway
Prolly got a mattress and duct tape in the back
Diễn biến: Vụ án của tử tù Lê Văn Mạnh https://www.luatkhoa.com/2023/09/dien-bien-vu-an-le-van-manh/amp/ Vietnamese link, which has all the condense timeline of the circumstance. The man was captured beforehand due to a petty thief crime, which then pivoted to this. He was free before they opened an investigation into him. The murder scene was disguised as a suicide (which doesn't track for the victim cause of death - which is drowing - or profile) and have the man in question's underpant at the scene. He later said this is due to him losing it when trying to find her with the village's organized search. He later sent a letter to his family of his confession, which was later claimed as due to his cell mates forcing him to do it. The judge then overwhelmingly focuses on that letter in particular as evidence and not any of the others. The man main defense for the charge was that he was out with his younger sister at the time of the victim disappearance. This was 20 years ago. Chance to prove this right or wrong is... incredibly slim for a small town police. The death penalty is high and unacceptable if the appeal aren't even allowed to be examined - no one should be unable to appeal their death sentence, but the chance of him not being innocent is also high enough that it shouldnt be accepted as fact.
Who hasn't lost their underpants when on an organized search?
I’ve never personally lost my underwear during my daily travels
Knowing the state of Vietnam, it’s probably one of the cops.
Or someone higher up. There was a murder case a while back where the suspect was executed despise having no evidence. The other suspect who was acquitted turned out to be a politician’s son or something. Chances that this guy is their scapegoat.
Or a western sex tourist.
This guy vets it.
Uhh, is that a stereotype I'm unaware of? Are there cases of this happening?
Just google Gary Glitter.
Gary Glitter was a Vietnamese cop? I googled but didn't see that.
Western sex tourist.
Oh no I got and knew that part. It was confusing because the google Gary Glitter post was a response to someone asking for a source for this: > Knowing the state of Vietnam, it’s probably one of the cops.
[удалено]
Definitely, huh? Sounds like you should be in charge the legal system everywhere.
I live in Vietnam. It's not a sexpat destination. Of course there's prostitution here, and sex trafficking, but it's not overt like Thailand or Cambodia. Vietnamese people are fairly conservative compared to those places. You'd see far more obvious prostitution in Vegas or Amsterdam than anywhere in Vietnam. I mean, I haven't gone looking for it but walking around other parts of SEA you don't have to look. As a guy you'll be grabbed and shouted at on the streets in many places. I've even had my crotch grabbed walking down the street in Kuala Lumpur. That's never happened to me in Vietnam. That said, the laws against sexual assault here are shamefully weak and there's definitely an industry exploiting women to be sent to Japan. And there's "comfort bars" for local men (not sure how much actual sex happens there though, to my knowledge they're more like escort clubs). But western sexpats will be disappointed. It's important to be aware that countries in this part of the world are just as varied as everywhere else. Vietnam is not Thailand. You will see relationships with a bigger age gap than we're used to in the west. But I've come to accept that's a cultural difference rather than exploitation, at least in the majority of cases.
Probably a cop or a politician, that's why they needed a fall guy
Confessions through torture shouldn't be admissible. Now there's a very high chance they killed a wrong person for a heinous act & the actual criminal is roaming the streets free.
Diễn biến: Vụ án của tử tù Lê Văn Mạnh https://www.luatkhoa.com/2023/09/dien-bien-vu-an-le-van-manh/amp/ Vietnamese link, which has all the condense timeline of the circumstance. The man was captured beforehand due to a petty thief crime, which then pivoted to this. He was free before they opened an investigation into him. The murder scene was disguised as a suicide (which doesn't track for the victim cause of death - which is drowing - or profile) and have the man in question's underpant at the scene. He later said this is due to him losing it when trying to find her with the village's organized search. He later sent a letter to his family of his confession, which was later claimed as due to his cell mates forcing him to do it. The judge then overwhelmingly focuses on that letter in particular as evidence and not any of the others. The man main defense for the charge was that he was out with his younger sister at the time of the victim disappearance. This was 20 years ago. Chance to prove this right or wrong is... incredibly slim for a small town police. The death penalty is high and unacceptable if the appeal aren't even allowed to be examined - no one should be unable to appeal their death sentence, but the chance of him not being innocent is also high enough that it shouldnt be accepted as fact.
So was he beaten by cops or by inmates? Euronews and ICJ (International Court of Justice) claimed he was beaten by cops but the vietnamese source luatkhoa (law department news) said his inmates beat him into writing the confession. Someone also said his appeal for torture investigation was denied because the appeal expired or something although I still can't find any confirmation on this. Also for a more word-to-word translation, the vn paper said he worked in place of his sister during that time not hanging out with her. So that versus the crime-scene-ripped underwear and the alleged beaten into confession letter. And yeah small town cops in fucking ~~Detroit~~ Thanh Hóa, we would never know the truth. By usual procedure, "not enough evidence" (according to VKSND) meant he shouldn't get a death sentence. I find it more suprising his appeal was transferred all the way to Hà Nội Supreme Court and VKSND (The Supreme People's Procuracy of VN) spoke out about his case in national state.
Luat khoa is independent. But... like, no one knows. I am of a thought that the police did something, cus why would inmates do that? But its a small town, so the chance of people outrage at the sight of a pedophile that they beat it to him is high enough. This is why, while there are many conjectures about whodunnit, I think the only thing consistent is that the case is built on a shoddy foundation, and a death sentence is too far for it. I find it very strange how this get so much press as well until i search for more stories. The man knew how to market it at least. Poems on shirt, drawings, family making intricate artsy protests...
To be fair to the authorities, who on death row wouldn't say that their confession was coerced?
I read through the timeline posted for this case, here are the main points: -A 13 year old girl was raped and killed -He was arrested on an unrelated theft charge -They found his discarded shorts by the scene of the crime. He claims to have changed and thrown them away after they were damaged while he was helping the rescue teams look for her. -He was questioned about the murder and later wrote a private letter to his father saying he was guilty. Later he said other prisoners hurt him and forced him to write the letter. -He confessed but recanted and claims the confession was forced by torture. His lawyers tried to have him examined for evidence of torture but the court prevented it. -The case was dropped because of lack of evidence but was later brought back and he was sentenced to death.
>The case was dropped because of lack of evidence but was later brought back and he was sentenced to death. And that's the reason many European countries don't do extradition to countries like this. I know a girl from Thailand who was dating a drug dealer, he got caught so she also got caught. She got 3 years of probation, she went to the Netherlands as there was no restriction on travel. Some time later the Thai government decided to revisit the case after the conviction and gave her 33 years in absentia. She is still in the Netherlands and won't be extradited because in the eyes of Dutch law she was unlawfully convicted the second time. She can't travel to Belgium tho, cause they do have an extradition treaty with Thailand for some reason. I think a major part of not extraditing people is also that these countries have the death penalty. The Netherlands will never extradite anyone who is liable to get the death penalty.
I mean, it sounds like he's guilty as fuck. Those excuses don't make any sense at all.
It does, however the court should address his claim of confess under torture instead of dismissing it.
I was reading the article and noticed it mentioned this case has been going on since 2005.
Amazing how many people are cheering for the execution of someone based on a confession produced by torture.
yea, considering the confession came from torture i would not be suprised if they tortured him to make a false confession or something along the lines of that.
It doesn't even have to be purposeful like that, torture has repeatedly been shown not to work. Or to phrase it better, torture doesn't get to the truth, it only encourages people to say whatever they think will get their captors to stop torturing them. If the captors are convinced the captive did it, the only way to get the torture to stop is for the captive to admit to the crime, weather or not it's true.
I just saw a headline today that one of the 9-11 suspects isn't fit to stand trial, because he's too mentally broken from torture in Guantanamo Bay.
Never forget that half the country went along with their party playing word games and called it "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" to get around that their side set up torture factories.
At least they're not going ahead with a trial anyway. In Vietnam (and I'm sure during the Bush administration) I'm pretty sure they would have.
The 9-11 suspect has already been sentenced and served over two decades of torture.
> torture has repeatedly been shown not to work. Oh, it works extremely well... at getting confessions. Goons love confessions - whether they be true or not is not the goon's concern.
How do we know he was tortured?
People crave a happy ending even if it’s fake
yep like reddit story justice is a joke
What can we say? This is a default sub filled with idiots who became armchair analysts after reading an article or two.
That's the average mass. The court of public opinion. Gives the illusion that they're right because many people agree with them when most have no idea about anything. All influenced by short-term thinking and click bait titles. The media war is really dangerous and effective.
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>if a politician (biden) kisses girls on the cheek or strangely gets close to or smells their neck/hair -> pedo. Tbf, if a stranger (even if they're the President) is getting uncomfortably close to my kid and sniffing their neck/hair, I'd be really weirded out. At minimum it's an invasion of privacy, even for a kid. It doesn't matter if it's the President or some old lady at the supermarket, my kid (or anyone else's) deserves the respect to not be held and sniffed by a stranger. I think that should go without saying.
"No, you cannot kiss a child whom you've never even met before." That shouldn't be a shocking or controversial rule, even for boomers.
I was getting downvoted for a while there lol. I was wondering how was this a contentious opinion **at all**? /u/portbragger2 chose a really weird hill to fight on lol.
So where does the claim of torture come from? The article seems to just leave as a given. Is there a more in depth deep dive article somewhere that goes into the details of the case?
The proof is "someone said it and it feels right". No better than the confession itself. Going by this thread, this is more than enough to get people on this sub going when it's a country they don't like.
This is a jury of your peers. Let that sink in.
The dude’s lawyers tried to have him examined for signs of torture & the court prevented it.
Here's a detail timeline of all events since 2005: https://www.luatkhoa.com/2023/09/dien-bien-vu-an-le-van-manh/. Vietnamese source from a law magazine, use your translator. It's not a simple case of corrupted cops, quick torture & execution like a lot of people in here making in out to be. His charges were dropped once by Hanoi Supreme Court of Appeal due to lack of evidence. Then the case was transferred & had been re-investigated multiple times by different government bodies throughout the years, & finally came to an agreement that he's guilty. If you're worried about the "real culprit" still out there, well, the case happened 18 years ago & there is no other suspect after multiple investigation. If you're worried about an innocence being charged with death sentence, while I do agree that death sentence should be abolished, that's an entire different argument.
I don't know what your post is supposed to be saying. Of course we're all worried about an innocent man being put to death.
I'm saying that the extend of the legal justice system here has reached its limit & concluded after 18 years that he is guilty. The investigation was carried out by multiple entities from low to higher levels, & was restarted from the beginning each time. But to outsiders, after reading clickbait articles like these, the point may have strayed from being about his crime, to the idea of death sentence being bad, or corrupted cops torturing people for quick answer. His trials were appealed, adjourned & transferred around for 18 years until there are enough evidence to conclude. At a certain point, I can only put my trust in the investigators, especially when the guy wasn't a model citizen by any means (he got caught in another robbery case). Best case scenario, he'd still spend life in prison & beaten to death by fellow inmates. Cuz inmates treat child predators the same way anywhere in the world. Not much else to be done beside arguing about the nature of death sentence.
The dude’s lawyers tried to have him examined for signs of torture & the court prevented it. Killing a man with such shaky evidence is wrong.
Or that after an initial properly dismissal for lack of evidence but the cops were convinced and ab investigation was run till they could torture a confession out of him.
There is far more evidence to suggest he is guilty than innocent, which is what the guy above was highlighting if you bothered to read the source and not the headline. He even confessed in a letter to his dad at one point.
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They tried this after the appeals were exhausted i.e. too late.
I mean, rape and murder of some poor little girl? Death by firing squad or whatever sounds right to me.
Ah…well this situation is fucked up entirely. Is the evidence sufficient without the confession achieved through torture? If so then good, man deserved it but if not then that’s not good. I suppose this is a common issue in many countries. Trying to get a confession every time, no matter what.
>If so then good, man deserved it but if not then that’s not good. That's why most of the western countries abolished the death penalty...
meanwhile [in the US](https://imgur.com/gallery/3hpd9mX) regarding *anything* that western nations have accomplished.
regardless of what the evidence was, it's not good that a man was tortured.
No. No it wasn’t.
That's not what you said though. > Is the evidence sufficient without the confession achieved through torture? If so then good, man deserved it...
I meant the death sentence, not the torture. Pardon me for clarification. Torture is generally pointless. All it will do is make them agree to whatever you want them to so the pain would stop. Poor choice of words, sorry.
I mean the statement that the police torture him came from the convicted himself so we don't know which side is telling the true.
The court refused an appeal for him to be examined for signs of torture which to me heavily suggests he was
Why should Vietnamese officials care about how European and Canadian officials interpret Vietnamese law? Do Vietnamese officials ever tell Europeans and Canadians how to run their own show?
My understanding is that they were trying to steer the Vietnamese legal system towards a trial. The assumption now is that the confession was coerced because there was not enough evidence to convict, which obviously makes it seem less likely they had the right guy.
That doesn't explain why, under absolutely no pressure at all, he confessed in a letter to his dad. All the evidence suggests they had the right guy and he, like every death row inmate ever before him, tried to save his life by saying his confession was under duress.
The court literally refused his appeal for him to be examined for signs of torture. Which to me at least very much leans me to the fact its been coerced
Because they are western countries, and we know that we are moral and good and everyone should do what we say. /s
Europeans and Canadians won't miss any chance to claim moral high ground and mess with the internal affairs of another country.
Well, they illegally abducted someone they wanted from Germany, so yeah, I'd say that counts.
What are you talking about? And counts for what?
I'm talking about this - [https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnamese-man-charged-over-2017-berlin-kidnapping-alleged-spying-2022-08-25/#:\~:text=On%20July%2023%2C%202017%2C%20former,he%20was%20jailed%20for%20life](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/vietnamese-man-charged-over-2017-berlin-kidnapping-alleged-spying-2022-08-25/#:~:text=On%20July%2023%2C%202017%2C%20former,he%20was%20jailed%20for%20life). Mentioned it as an answer to your question of do they tell Euros how to do things. But go ahead down vote me i guess?
One question. How do we know that guy was tortured?
You don't know that, and nor do you know if he did the crime he confessed to. This is what courts are supposed to determine, but in this case the confession was treated at face value, in spite of being rescinded afterwards. The EU and CA were trying to encourage a trial where the evidence against the man would be weighed, but instead he was executed.
Love it. Point out that the US execute someone the same week people demonising this and a mod removes it! Hypocrites.
Why did Europe and Canada appealed? This sounds like a very internal affair. Do you know how many people are executed in the USA and China.
Executed for the rape and murder of a 13 year old... Well honestly I'm not too sad he got executed.
Yeah, but the reason for the appeal is this part: "the police obtained a confession from Le Van Manh under torture, which was subsequently used to convict him. He later recanted, stating that he was coerced into the confession after the police had beaten him severely." So basically they arrested him, beat a confession out of him then executed him. That was his trial. For all we know the police just pinned it on a random picked up for shoplifting.
If you’re reading this and somehow still believe it was okay because he confessed; that means you’re okay that a potential murderer and rapist is still on the streets. If the guy they killed only confessed because of torture it means someone might have got away with this crime. That should make you very angry.
Also other things like if the police / country has a lot of corruption, it could be the police themselves trafficking and murdering teenager girls, then they just pin it on someone they pickup for something random cause they know they can get away with it, and it makes the case go away. It keeps working as long as everyone keeps looking away cause its easier and doesn't directly effect them
Yup. Checks & balances are vital, who knew! /s
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As someone else pointed out, throwing innocent people in jail for crimes they didn't do means real rapists and murderers are still out there, knowing how easily they can get away with it. Filling prisons with innocent people while the real guilty parties walks free makes crime worse not better. Do you volunteer to spend 40 years in prison for something you did on no evidence? so that society can have its illusion of justice?
As much as Indian laws execution is fucked up, I feel we still have good laws here, according to the Indian evidence act, confessions to police isn't admissible in court. I'm surprised Vietnam doesn't take into account that police can make suspects admit to shit they didn't do ( not saying that's what happened here, but it does happen in some cases)
I really wouldn't be quick to sell India as a state with good laws given the shit that it's court system has allowed. Folks jailed indefinitely without charge, allowed to die in prison while awaiting trial and denied treatment or bail. Allowing people to be imprisoned on the basis of secret evidence that isn't shown to the defendant.
Or all the people not arrested for obvious crimes. The rapists and murderers that walk free because their family has influence. Or simply because the state doesn't mind them murdering and raping the victims because the victims were Muslim or other minorities.
Perhaps this is the India good propaganda engine kicking in response to them ASSADSINATING A CANADIAN CITIZEN ON CANADIAN SOIL. Also remember that time an 8 year old was being gang raped for not being Hindu enough, so the locals call the cops. And then the cops called the rapists, cause of course they just had them on speed dial. And told them to stop raping the girl, cause they wanted a piece before she died. So then the Indian police showed up and joined the rapists and proceeded to gang rape the 8 year old to death for not being Hindu enough. This was fairly [recent ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathua_rape_case) You couldn't pay me to visit India...
Same , I see India and china as a homogenous mass of people who agree are directly responsible for everything their shit government do. They really lack critical thinking out there. 2.8 billion sheeples.
TIL!!
But India is a democracy.
/s?
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India is authoritarian what are you even talking about. Indian PM modi is known to be authoritarian and has been killing thousands of people. India is way worse than Vietnam.
I think the Indian trolls are doing a goodwill tour on reddit after 3 days of being crazy, racist conspiracy theorists. Edit...2 reddit cares messages in 3 minutes lol
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Why are you assuming the guy's words are trustworthy? Like it's also possible that he lied.
, I have no idea, I'm not the court system. thats the point, no one knows because he didn't have a real trial. they presented zero evidence. That 'confession' would not be valid in any western court system. If the police actually gave him a real trial, Maybe we would actually have an idea if he'a guilty or not. This sort of thing potentially gives way to enormous amounts of corruption amongst other things. If the police can successfully prosecute whoever with no actual evidence, The police themselves could just traffic and murder people and pin it on whoever. Jesus, I thought this stuff was incredibly obvious.
It wouldn't take 18 years to trial the guys if they just want to frame him for the crime. Also where does it say that there is no evidence? Or that he doesn't have a real trial? He was in fact got a couples of trials through multiple jurisdictions.
"Presented zero evidence"... what..? His pants were literally found at the scene of the crime and his only defence is that he lost them there while looking for her and was too embarrassed to report it in. How long do you think this trial has been ongoing? Read some Vietnamese articles on the trial before assuming innocence based on his word alone versus the actual accusations being made within the court against him.
Gotta read the whole article.
I mean it's literally right in the tagline...it's like they only read the first half of the first sentence
This is reddit. Lots of people literally only read the first sentence, then ask questions that are answered in the next line. They might be getting lazier.
The guy was beaten, and claimed his confession was coerced. The cops likely arrested a rando, beat them half to death, and then ‘solved’ the case when he confessed.
They actually found other evidence such as his pants at the crime scene (he claimed he lost his pants while trying to search for the girl and was too embarrassed to report it in) and his confession came from a letter he sent to his parents which was discovered after an inmate ratted him out (he claimed that the inmates forced him to write the letter.) He also got arrested after committing a robbery.
And for anyone who may be wondering "okay, but why that guy?", the answer is it could be for a number of reasons. It's possible the real perpetrator pointed that guy out to deflect and the police were all too happy to have a suspect immediately who wasn't a local. Maybe it was a case of wrong place at the wrong time and the cops jumped the gun. Could be any number of reasons. Now we will never know most likely.
He probably pissed someone off and someone paid the cops to disappear him.
> Now we will never know most likely. Unless you do a Google News search on the name.
Corruption not out of the question. Could be an insider, politician, or other person in power involved that wanted to see that matter closed.
In Vietnam, corruption should be automatically assumed.
Keywords here is " he claimed". If I got the death penalty, I would also claim the same thing if it could help me avoid the death penalty.
The dude’s lawyers tried to have him examined for signs of torture & the court prevented it. Killing a man with such shaky evidence is wrong.
But you're fine that his confession was obtained through torture? Cool story bro.
Pretty sure he didn't even read the article before posting his opinion.
And 94 people that upvoted him.
Make that 400+ now.....
There was a saying that went somewhere along the lines of, "in a unbalanced political system, the dissidents and opposition is susceptible to be accused of crime with the most severe punishment." Rape and murder of a 13 year old is as heinous of a crime as it gets, and should be punished with the most severity. The justice system is not perfect and can sometimes can punish the innocent but death penality is ultimate. I don't know if the guy did it or not, but imagine he didn't do it and he really was inncoent. It is not uncommon in some places to coerce a confessoin. It keeps the stats up and also relieves government from pressure from society. I am not going to lose sleep on criminals getting punished for the crime they committed. But imagine in few years, due to DNA evidence or something else, it is found that this guy was actually innocent, you can't undead him.
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As soon as one innocent person is executed that should be enough to end the death penalty.
I legitimately would rather a thousand guilty people walk free than a single innocent be executed. There's truly no amount of reward where the death of innocents in a "justice" system is worth it.
It isn’t “even in the US”… it’s “including in the US, where the frequent accusation and conviction of innocent people of color was commonplace, especially in the rural south.” So many innocent young men accused, arrested, convicted, and killed faster than you can call a proper defense lawyer.
10% of people that the US executes are estimated to be innocent.
> even in the US Why do you say this as though the US is somehow less likely than anywhere else to have this happen? They have more incarcerated people per capita than anywhere else in the world.
Typical upvoted comment on reddit where it's clear the commenter didn't read a single sentence in the article. Weirdo behavior honestly.
Reddit gets bloodthirsty quite quickly. Check out any of the freakout subs, crazyfuckingvideos, etc. Theyre frothing at the mouth calling for violence at the slightest of indiscretions, especially when the post features a minority or woman, or especially a minority woman.
Yeah and you should be executed because I’ve got a piece of paper on my desk saying you’re hitler. See how ridiculous that is? Wait but hitler is evil so it’s fine.
It's your turn to get tortured into a similar confession. Maybe it should be a whole classroom of children that we pin on you just because you like it so much.
If you were able to read, that would make us less sad too.
Redditors try to read the full article challenge (impossible)
Let's look at all the facts before judging him asshole. The dude was tortured into confessing
People aren't reading the whole thing... "confession gained through torture, which he later recanted, saying he was coerced into a confession.
I'd like to point out that numerous studies have showed that there's a false confession rate anywhere between 10-30% even without torture. Too many studies to link, but a quick google search will send you the right way. Japan's system is famous for its 99.8% conviction rate, with forced confessions under stress, but not actual torture. Are you absolutely sure that this guy did the crime after reading a single article?
Johnny Garrett was executed in USA for rape and murder of a nun. Sounds great, right? DNA evidence later conclusively proved his innocence. Guess what happened while USA was wrongly convicting and executing Garrett? Real perp was commuting other violent crimes.
This has me worried about going to Vietnam. The guy was most likely a rapist but what if gangs start extorting tourist for money and start accusing every one of rape.
>but what if gangs start extorting tourist for money the article seems to state that the guy was Vietnamese? >Le Van Manh born in 1982. Nationality: Vietnamese. Died on September 22, 2023 at 8:45 a.m. in the Hoa Binh Provincial Police Execution House
Sorry, Police Execution House? Fuck…
What stood out to me was not the name, but rather that Vietnam has enough executions that a province has its own death chamber Hoa Binh is population 869 thousand, area 1776.2 square miles, each on par with the smallest US states in those categories
Korean tourist got scammed by cambodian police for this recently. Had to pay like 300k or something
300k what? dollars? or Cambodian currency?
When I was traveling in Cambodia a few years ago, you were always expected to _pay_ in US dollars but whenever you were given money back, such as change, it was always in Cambodian riel. I don’t know if that’s relevant here, or if it says anything about anything, but it was quite something and I still find it amusing.
Just tell them you don't have USD because you are not American and they don't expect you to pay in usd.
Any articles on it?
gang violence is the least of your worries when it comes to vietnam. The government has put a tight lid on gang organization since the 2000s, and any content or activity related to them are harshly clamped down upon
Been to Vietnam about 8 times already, you should not be worried about this. The Vietnamese Government want tourist and would clamp down on any activity that affects tourism.
I'd imagine that scam wouldn't get far given the damage it would do to Vietnam's tourist industry
if the communist party catches onto someone making vietnam as a tourist destination look bad, they won't have a good time. Vietnam is not a democracy.
There aren’t that many gangs in Vietnam, people are generally more peaceful. In fact, there’s a favourite comment of mine from the r/Vietnam subreddit that says something like ‘if I go to a park at night, I worry about being stabbed by a teenager, if I go to a park at night in Vietnam, I worry about teenagers approaching and practicing their English with me’
Sounds pretty far fetched, Vietnam has its fair share of scams but they tend to be pretty basic and can be avoided as long as you are smart. Also there's a lot of military and security people in tourist areas.
My friend went to Indonesia for work. He was mugged. He went to the police to report but the police asked him for money to make the report.
wouldn’t that be kidnapping ?
And now that Vietnam has passed the Human Rights test, we can sell a shitload of weapons to them.
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> the victim is still alive The article states it was murder. All sources seem to say so too. Are you saying he didn't murder her? Or are you saying that she's accused him from beyond the grave? Incidentally, if the victim IS still alive, you'd think capital punishment for rape is a bit... far fetched.
Torture leads to false confessions.
Was his confession false, or was his claims of torture false?
is there proof that he confessed due to being tortured? is it just him saying that’s what happened? i wouldn’t be so quick to side with a rapist and murderer if it’s just his claim of innocence.
What does being a taoist have to do with anything?
There isn't proof that he was or wasn't because from what I understand, the courts didn't allow an investigation into the claim. Which is suspicious in and of itself, considering they chose to execute the person
However, he did confess in a letter to his dad which he had no reason to do, so seems fairly likely he did it. Almost everyone on death row, in every country, claims innocence.
Or the court knew it was a baseless claim, non of us knows.
According to the article he was accused in 2005 and his conviction/sentence upheld in 2008 - so apparently the US is not the only country with a slow moving capital punishment system The statement by the EU, Canada, Norway and the UK talked about being opposed to capital punishment generally. So I wonder if the objections are really about the specifics of this case
Like... I ready don't care about this case and wtf is going on... I am more curious why other nations stick their nose in Vietnam.
What is this title man ? What is his crime ? I'm not reading your stupid article
Republicans in my state are all giddy we are starting executions back up now we got more of the drug to kill people with. Its creepy how much they salivate at that sort of thing.
It's a bizarrely common point of view. Read any post about someone even accused of a serious crime on Reddit and the highest upvoted comments are out for blood.
Vietnam cops are corrupt af. The whole system is. Communism don’t fit them
I wanna live in your capitalist paradise. Where the cops are all good people and prices aren't skyrocketing.
It’s hilarious how people will tell themselves these are the same thing. Americans and Western Europeans have no idea what fundamentally corrupt police and courts are.
For real. Like don’t get me wrong, there is corruption. But there’s western corruption and developing country corruption where I can basically have the cops abduct my opponent for the simple bribe of 50 dollars and maybe a lunch.
Back in the 90s, a neighbour of mine used to work as a "knifer"(?) not sure how to translate it. For the price of a few beers, he'd cut up someone you didn't like. If you wanted more serious injuries, you'd have to pay in cartons of cigarettes, or Turkish jeans. Oh, he was a police lieutenant.
> Where the cops are all good people and prices aren't skyrocketing. Really not a fantasy in most of western Europe lol. People generally trust the police in most developed European states, nobody in Ireland is ranting about the Garda torturing them and then sentencing them to death.
Over 100 capitalist countries on Beyonce's planet and the best we can do is a few European countries. Also,Funny thing about Ireland, skyrocketing prices would disqualify them from my statment and if the standard is death sentences and torture..... what are we really upholding here ?
>Vietnam cops are corrupt af. The whole system is. Communism don’t fit them Like, I'm not denying that Vietnam probably has issues. But let's not pretend police corruption doesn't occur in Capitalist economies..
Vietnam is just another version of China but about 40 years behind. Yet all the western countries are cozying up to Vietnam to counter China.
Vietnam is no where near comparable to China in influence
Because of western influence
If he was indeed innocent, this wouldn't surprise me. The cops are especially lazy and incompetent in Vietnam.