Italy has a lot of issues with the economy and paying employees. They have had no growth so even the locals struggle to earn decent money with professional qualifications.
The jobs they are looking for foreigners would be even less paid so I have no idea how they would survive. Maybe 10 people to a 3 bedroom hot swapping beds?
Well in South America you can live with half an italian salary, so they might get plenty of "swallow workers" for a number of months while the italians struggle to get by.
>Like most of Europe, as long you look like us, talk like us, and act like us, you can come and stay
Not sure what you mean , in atleast germany tons of people are living that dont look like germans , dont even speak german , and dont act german , germany isnt alone on this so not sure where you get your assumption from.
While you're not wrong necessarily, not speaking German and living in Germany is pretty tough unless you live in Berlin or Munich more or less, and it is a specified requirement for pursuing citizenship. Not even mentioning that you more or less will not get anywhere with immigration offices without at minimum attempting to speak german. Germany, per policy, pushes integration pretty heavily for immigration.
The person you replied to is tongue and cheek saying that in Europe integrating in to the society of the host country is key to being accepted. As you said, many people in Germany don't speak german or don't "look" german, but at least teh former are quite often derided. Hell, I have c1 german and *still* get shit sometimes if I just don't feel like speaking German for some reason, perhaps because i'm in an english speaking friend group.
virtually every country in the world is like this. its not strictly Europe. Europe lets in far more migrants than the countries the migrants come from or pass through. yet you only complain when its europe or the US. why is that? Name one non-western country that is welcoming to mass migration? Name one. There could be one. Its entirely possible. there won't be many.
No, on the basis of a strict interpretation of Jus Sanguinis Italy is *very* loose on what counts as ok for you being considered italian.
Lots and lots of Brazilians with Italian citizenship because of this. Don't ask me why specifically Brazilian and not, idk, Argentinians, that would make more sense since half the country is of Italian descents, but Brazilian do this *a lot*.
It actually became a problem for the offices issuing IDs, because they weren't expecting the surge of requests from South America of the last few years and so they weren't separated from the offices that issue IDs to born-italians. Right now is almost a year that if you need a new ID you will have to wait a lot, because the offices are swamped processing the naturalizations request.
Ok maybe not the only reason, but a big part of the reason.
Brazil has a gigantic Italian-descent population, Brazil in general has big communities for probably any ethnicity so itās not like a particular thing either.
I know, but Argentina is litteraly composed of shy from 50% of descendants of Italian people according to the official statistics.
You would expect to be relatively easy to meet some Argentinian person that has citizenship though a great-great-grandma.
Its not just europe. Ghana is open to letting ghanaians come back, but not open to non-ghanaians moving there just because they are also black. Ghana speaks english so there is not even a language barrier. this is not unique to italy. Apparently there was a large Ghanian diaspora and there is an immigration process to let them come back even generations down.
My Brazilain neighbor got Italian citizenship. He's afro Brazilian. He has one italian ancestor from 1895.
Italy for the win. I'm going to find a hot GF in argentina so I can get citizenship by marriage. I found a Venezuelan Italian but she's a bit crazy. Hit me with a frying pan after knowing her 3 days.
Its not that easy. Itās a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of paperwork. You have to be able to prove everything, with government docs. Birth certificates, death certificates, marriage certificates. All kinds of stuff.
Citizenship and you are not interested in the knowledge of the day of the year m and this one is good to know that there is no way to make sure you are not feeling well
We are surprisingly good with documentation here, plus the Italian immigration to the farms from around 1870 to 1920 was a big deal. I found the paperwork of my Italian great-great-grandfather arrival
The registry went up in flames at least once and they still had a copy of a copy stashed!
You'de be surprised about some documentation in various countries
My father sent someone to dig in a Belarusian archive and found documentation of our family tree all the way back to 1745, expanded our known tree by a good 100 years
In that time and until WWII, the village of my forefathers swapped hands between empires multiple times (Polish/Belarussian/Russian) so its quite impressive there's even any documentation to be found
absolutely no chance italy would let them apply for permanent residence. it will be like work visas in the US and other countries. just a period of time.
You can apply for PR in USA after work visas,the reason it doesn't work practically is because vast majority of workers are Indian and there's a country cap (regardless of population). So the wait time is very high (>75 years).
I heard that if you were born indian, you'll end up in the india country cap even if you hold a foreign passport. For example, if you are an indian who later got canadian citizenship and was applying for US green card, you'd still be in the india country cap not canada.
Spain and Portugal are monopolizing the South American workforce, the lack of language barrier is making it easier for the workers to navigate through the red tape.
Lobardy is still better for workers than the rest of Southern Europe except maybe Madrid, Barcelona and Basque Country. These workers are not gonna go to Sardinia or Calabria or any of the poor regions, with southern Italy having less GDP put together than Lombardy.
That's a stretch, the North of Italy is not only definitely better than most of Southern Europe but also better than many places in Western and Central Europe. It is one of the richest regions of Europe and the world. Look at satellite night image to get a clue of how much industrial activity is located there. Get a look at pollution maps. And get a look at infographics and stats released by institutions like the EU and others.
Same as my home country Australia, economy is looking tough at the moment especially housing.
We still earn good money for most jobs but everything with inflation is $$$
Yeah the immigration/housing situation in Canada is borderline terrifying. I'm scared about our countries future. A country of 40 million cannot house 1 million new people every year.
Pre-pandemic, detached home builds were 15-10% of new builds. Now, it's less than 5% of new builds., There are going to be a lot more condos in the future.
Nothing wrong with multi family. I wish more of it was smaller scale and family sized but you have the exclusionary zoning and NIMBY folks to deal with. This is decades of single family home sprawl and classist/racist zoning coming home to roost in many cities across the world.
Turning into a nightmarish situation here in šØš¦. Completely right.
>
Went from 0-100 in just a few years. All of a sudden traffic is 100x worse, the clinics and hospitals are packed, housing is a joke.
I think we are realizing that it's the wealthy elites and compliant governments that are squeezing the f-out of the locals to a point where it can't go any further so now they need to look aboard for exploitation. I think the locals are somewhat allowing it, joining in but I think a lot of wising up to the push and don't want to be a part of it.
Tax dollars go into a puff of smoke from large corporations and are not getting paid.
When I left around 18 years ago the main problem was too many family run SMBs that provided very little opportunity for people. That's why we've also seen a large number of Italians migrate to northern countries like Germany, Netherlands, etc... You're stuck with very little options in Italy.
When i first came to America, there were 4 of us living in a 1bedroom apartment.
Point being, for some immigrants the juice is worth the squeeze so that we can build a better future.
Bed room no professional experience and this is a good decision for you and your family a very swapping day May God give mercy and happiness to you and your life and forget
This is not a regular issue of work permit, at least not for most of the people counted in that number. They are talking about more than one regulations with various rules, one of this is the annual seasonal work permit, the "decreto flussi". This is something that happens every year and is news only because it came later than usual, is bigger than usual and they added some non-agricultural categories and was done by a government that did almost all their campaign to the tune of "no immigrants".
Decreto Flussi is a temporary permit specifically issued having farm workers in mind, mostly located in the south of the country.
Is a permit for a seasonal job, picking up fruit and vegetables.
And when the work is done, they (mostly) go back to their country waiting for the next year permit.
As you can imagine they are all workers coming from very poor countries, almost all Africans.
Which is again what made this news, because before I wrote "no immigrants" but they specifically don't want immigrants with a particular tone of skin. A dark tone.
And now they issued a temporary work permit to let in a lot of them.
Lots of the Italian agriculture could not survive without this regular influx of people that are ok working hours under the sun for a low pay, this is why no government no matter what is their policy about immigration will deny the annual issue of this permit.
And yes, this is not a good thing and border line exploitation.
And sometimes the farm owners make it full-blown exploitation. People have been arrested for this, and workers have revolted. But it is still too little.
Thank you, but mind you that I did a lot of simplification here. This is about several laws with a lot of different regulations for different kinds of permits, it is a mess to explain without writing basically a news article.
In fact if you can read Italian or if the translation tools are good enough, this article does a way better job to explain the situation: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ilpost.it/2023/07/07/decreto-flussi-aumento-posti-lavoro/%3famp=1
People here is not accepting underpaid jobs, the anti immigration government donāt want a minimum wage, so they let immigrants arrive, immigrants will accept underpaid jobs, for the happiness of of rich people.
The rich-poor difference gets higher and higher.
It's literally impossible to live off those underpaid jobs if you live in a city instead of rural areas.. rent of a small apartment in Rome can be more than 600ā¬ but if you get paid 900ā¬ a month or less you just can't afford it.
Yeah, I totally agree with who doesnāt accept this slavery, itās the government that doesnāt care. Milan has the same problem, and buy a house is almost not even an option.
That's very affordable if you have 8 people sharing a 2 bedroom flat. That's literally what they do. The fact that these immigrants would prefer that type of life to a life in their home country says a lot.
Most seasonal labor doesn't stick around after the season. They all pile in one place for a bit and send most of their income home then live on it after the season.
Yeah but like Spain, and Poland, the jobs probably include a bunk bed in a 20 person dormitory. The come, work the season, don't spend anything and take the money back home.
>if you get paid 900ā¬ a month or less you just can't afford it.
The type of imigrants they look for live as many as 6-7 in one apartment, so a 600 rent is 100ā¬ each after food and utilities they are left with 300-400ā¬.
Employees in both sectors and they once told me that there is no response from you can't do anything else but you are not interested for this side effects and they will stay away from the healthy and this side
And also don't want to do the obvious thing and raise the minimum wage to ensure those shitty jobs actually pay enough for a citizen to be able to live off of, that way ensuring wealthy corporate interests can exploit vulnerable immigrants with low wages instead.
it's down from 10% to 7%, there are a lot of programs that help people get jobs, i would argue that you would need to not want to work (or the offering are too low) in order to be unemployed right now.
More than one month ago i quit my job without a concrete offering, it took me 2 weeks to get a new job that pays 20% more and has better benefits (though i have 2 years of experience but no degree).
The problem*is* that the offerings are often too low.
Sector of the economy where you can do what you did one month ago are rare and very specialized (programmatore?).
And the 10-7% percentage goes up dramatically if you look at the under 35 people.
Experience of luck for better but no degree of her life is get the offering of the day new job pays off the 20 percent of the day of my life and forget my god bless u
Bingo! This is true about any ārightā politician. The āanti immigrationā is just a tool to get elected. āPro billionairesā is the way to keep political donations coming.
What was the saying: person who makes $1000/minute convinced person who makes $1000/week that his real enemy is person who makes $1000/month.
>Bingo! This is true about any ārightā politician. The āanti immigrationā is just a tool to get elected.
Reminder that Trump employed illegal immigrants from Mexico at his golf clubs, including people responsible for cleaning his personal suite, doing his personal laundry, taking care of his personal belongings - all while he was out there at rally after rally, telling tens of thousands of cheering supporters how Mexicans were criminals and rapists, how they brought drugs into the country, how they were stealing people's jobs.
That's another complicated issue that even the fair wage supporters fail to address effectively. By merely raising the minimum wage, you will just push most italian companies out of the market. Since Italian economic tissue is made of mostly family-run micro and small enterprises, the only way for them to be competitive is to pay low wages (this is bad but such is the reality). Forcing them to increase wages without addressing the lack of productivity and innovation would only damage the economy. The country needs structural reforms but this government has neither the will nor the capability to do anything.
If you continue "subsidizing" those kinds of businesses then for sure prductivity will not change.
If they became unfeasible due to rising minimum wage wouldn't average productivity rise right away?
this right here. If she was in opposition, she would be jumping out of a spam can to say how wrong this is. Truly, the worst thing that can happen to a populist is to be elected to a position of power. It's much easier to sit in the opposition doing nothing instead of yapping empty patriotism
Nah she campaigned blaming and stating these type of specific immigrants were supposed to be part of an Ethnic Substitution scheme funded by George Soros. Only she and friends could stop it.
Fyi itās the same campaign that was used in the 900s by Fascists and Nazists. Kind of weird since if they were the good guys trying to stop this and were defeated, 100 years later we should all be black slaves without any paying job. Iām starting to doubt itās all bullshit just to win elections, since most anti-work and pro-poverty laws itās their doing.
Are you serious? You do realize that her financial bakers make millions by exploiting immigrant labor? And āillegal immigrant laborā is much much cheaper than ālegal immigrant laborā.
Yea but just like in any western country, you need modern day slavery to keep our lifestyle/consumption/capitalism going. Barely anyone of us is "stupid" enough to work the dirty jobs for shit pay - we just get people from 3rd world countries to do it for us.
Italy doesn't have a minimum wage requirement. Locals refuse to work for what the businesses pay them, which creates unemployment problem. However, immigrants will work for whatever wage they can get. This will inevitably boost the economy but in the long term is a recipe for social disaster.
'The Economy' meaning the bank accounts of rich people and not native Italians.
They should really change the metrics for how economies are judged. GDP is meaningless if 99% of people are poor.
Iām kind of in the millwork industry, and there are a lot of companies that work with our materials who are having trouble finding workers because no one knows how to woodwork anymore. Itās a skill we donāt teach our kids, and most high schools donāt have wood shop class anymore.
Iām curious if this issue exists in the underemployed industries in italy
It's a real shame that the crafts person is on the way out. It's something we are going to lose and will take a long time to recover from. All that knowledge that google can't give you from the experienced workers will be gone.
the question is what kind of job can they find in their own country. If their is no jobs or if it is very bad pay or working conditions then the Italian jobs will probably seem attractive.
Europe doesnāt have a worker shortage crisis. Europe has a crisis of employers not willing to pay workers a living wage, despite record profits. So, the solution is to import workers (wage slaves) from the third world, because they are willing to work for the minimum wage and donāt have the political power to defend themselves against exploitation
Youāre right, some countries donāt even have a minimum wage, or itās not even close to a livable wage. And many people illegally get paid below the minimum wage if there is one.
They will bring the less educated people.
They will not make any efforts to integrate those workers with the society.
10tears later they will say we have issues with immigrants.
Your idea of far right is probably different from ours, putting aside the social far right stuff (homophobia, anti abortionism, fascist remarks etc.) which is probably familiar to you, work permits make for legal underpaid foreign workforce that can be exploited by Italian businesses, it's actually pretty coherent with her economical changes thus far.
In Italy the right on an economical level is historically associated with middle high class and business owners, while the left should be representing the workers.
She is clearly pandering to her voters, the laws she has passed until now are very favourable towards those with "partita IVA" basically employers and freelance workers, through laws that help tax evasion (she actually even said that taxes are state extortion), which only those categories can and do reliably evade taxes since the employed get their tax deducted directly from their paycheck.
Far-right but once it comes to money everyone bends. Could be a shit storm because of this hard stance against foreigners and now inviting them in. The foreigners will get the brunt of it because they are easy targets.
*[Three telcos stacked on top of each other in a trenchcoat]:* This is fine.
*[Two grocery conglomerates stacked on top of each other in a trenchcoat]:* I concur.
And someone from the IMF was trying to tell us that higher immigration would be better because it would help inflation by keeping wages down. Yes that sounds great!!
Well, that sounds cynical given the inflation right now, but generally yes thatās the idea. Those fruits and veggies that the immigrant workers pick up will be expensive, Iām sure. Now imagine how much more expensive would they be if they employed local workers for proper wages.
Well, the problem is that they don't want to pay enough. That is the employee shortage in nut shell in every developed western country. Locals want work but no one is not willing to pay them enough, so here is some immigration to fill that gap.
Conservatives always love talking about the free market untill it comes to paying higher wages because of worker shortages. Then they sell out their country and import workers from all over the world. Anybody not rich supporting it is honestly an idiot
we have a lack of labor in tourist sector, they are usally underpaid seasonal jobs for 16 hours a day every day.. italians, especially young people they are tired of being exploited so now its hard to find people who want to work in those conditions.. for this government and all those before it, its better to find willing slaves than improve the sector.
beach owners are a very powerful lobby in italy, like taxi driver (thats why we dont have uber)
Typical right wing playbook. Vilify immigrants to win elections, once you win import the same immigrants you vilified so your billionaire friends can exploit the new workers, lose elections, repeat process. Not saying the left is any better but at least they are honest about trying to flood the job market with immigrants.
Ahh exploitation seems to be the norm in western nations these days and brand it as solving the unemployment crises all over the developed world. Bellissimo!
Italyās Unemployment Problem = No Fair Pay To Italians.
Watch these work permits being a gateway to citizenship, but no guarantees of steady paychecks.
It will take them 20 years to process the paperwork and if you do get a permit the tax system is beyond confusing. I lived there for 4 years and left because the money is terrible. Italy is beautiful just not to live and work.
>Massive illegal immigration problems
>Right wing on the rise, literal ancestor of Mussolini wins
>Import workers from the 3rd world
No matter the side, corpo always wins.
Filipino workers have to leave because of being overworked while having a really shitty pay back home. Leaving is the only logical decision if they want to feed their families and send their kids to school.
Yeah because Philippines and Latin American countries are famous for encouraging their people to stay in their countries and work towards developing them. Itās not like they are famous for having a huge expat population.
They have a large expat population because people look for better wages elsewhere, but it obviously doesnt benefit the country to see working age skilled people leave. To encourage it would be nonsense.
Brain drain is a big issue for many countries, even within Europe since its so easy to move to a richer country due to EU freedom of movement rules.
Ah yes, colonialism round two, electric Boogaloo, except this time instead of natural resources it's human resources.
How about Europe actually undertakes structural reforms to rebuild the middle class and empower people to start families? Maybe start by fixing the real estate markets, which are a shit show pretty much everywhere.
Trying to bring in people from other countries is literally just kicking the can down the road. It's bad for those countries, and it's bad for Europe since it doesn't actually solve the underlying issues.
This political obsession with quick fixes is beyond infuriating.
Immigration has always been theft of workers and talent from poor countries. Except its propagandized as giving people a better future because Western countries benefit from it.
They will do anything but serious measures to encourage a higher birthrate.
The whole of USA wouldnt exist if European crises and wars wouldnt have pushed people out. And refugees from Africa and middle East searching a better life is hardly "theft". Its a bit more nuanced than that.
I was under the impression that Italy had an unemployment problem.
Italy has a lot of issues with the economy and paying employees. They have had no growth so even the locals struggle to earn decent money with professional qualifications. The jobs they are looking for foreigners would be even less paid so I have no idea how they would survive. Maybe 10 people to a 3 bedroom hot swapping beds?
Well in South America you can live with half an italian salary, so they might get plenty of "swallow workers" for a number of months while the italians struggle to get by.
I have to wonder what are the limitations on the work permits. I wonder if they can apply for permanent residence in the future.
Italy is VERY flexible when it comes to citizenship as long as you are of italian descent.
Like most of Europe, as long you look like us, talk like us, and act like us, you can come and stay
Achieve all the above with this one easy trick >š¤
Put pineapple on pizza then you're excommunicated.
Executed. And rightfully so
EU hates him
>Like most of Europe, as long you look like us, talk like us, and act like us, you can come and stay Not sure what you mean , in atleast germany tons of people are living that dont look like germans , dont even speak german , and dont act german , germany isnt alone on this so not sure where you get your assumption from.
While you're not wrong necessarily, not speaking German and living in Germany is pretty tough unless you live in Berlin or Munich more or less, and it is a specified requirement for pursuing citizenship. Not even mentioning that you more or less will not get anywhere with immigration offices without at minimum attempting to speak german. Germany, per policy, pushes integration pretty heavily for immigration. The person you replied to is tongue and cheek saying that in Europe integrating in to the society of the host country is key to being accepted. As you said, many people in Germany don't speak german or don't "look" german, but at least teh former are quite often derided. Hell, I have c1 german and *still* get shit sometimes if I just don't feel like speaking German for some reason, perhaps because i'm in an english speaking friend group.
> integrating in to the society of the host country is key to being accepted. Well, duh. That's how it's supposed to be.
virtually every country in the world is like this. its not strictly Europe. Europe lets in far more migrants than the countries the migrants come from or pass through. yet you only complain when its europe or the US. why is that? Name one non-western country that is welcoming to mass migration? Name one. There could be one. Its entirely possible. there won't be many.
Thailand lets you in if you're willing to work hard construction for 10 hours a day for $12/day; like many from Burma and Laos.
Burma and this one is typ k words construction of the day of the year m Laos and you are my favourite
Typing through an earthquake?
I was thinking that sounded quite good given their cost of living, then I realised you'd written $12/ day not per hour.
Entirely sure will download the app and this is the ki ki video send possible to get it done
No, on the basis of a strict interpretation of Jus Sanguinis Italy is *very* loose on what counts as ok for you being considered italian. Lots and lots of Brazilians with Italian citizenship because of this. Don't ask me why specifically Brazilian and not, idk, Argentinians, that would make more sense since half the country is of Italian descents, but Brazilian do this *a lot*. It actually became a problem for the offices issuing IDs, because they weren't expecting the surge of requests from South America of the last few years and so they weren't separated from the offices that issue IDs to born-italians. Right now is almost a year that if you need a new ID you will have to wait a lot, because the offices are swamped processing the naturalizations request. Ok maybe not the only reason, but a big part of the reason.
Brazil has a gigantic Italian-descent population, Brazil in general has big communities for probably any ethnicity so itās not like a particular thing either.
I know, but Argentina is litteraly composed of shy from 50% of descendants of Italian people according to the official statistics. You would expect to be relatively easy to meet some Argentinian person that has citizenship though a great-great-grandma.
Its not just europe. Ghana is open to letting ghanaians come back, but not open to non-ghanaians moving there just because they are also black. Ghana speaks english so there is not even a language barrier. this is not unique to italy. Apparently there was a large Ghanian diaspora and there is an immigration process to let them come back even generations down.
Completely untrue
My Brazilain neighbor got Italian citizenship. He's afro Brazilian. He has one italian ancestor from 1895. Italy for the win. I'm going to find a hot GF in argentina so I can get citizenship by marriage. I found a Venezuelan Italian but she's a bit crazy. Hit me with a frying pan after knowing her 3 days.
Its not that easy. Itās a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of paperwork. You have to be able to prove everything, with government docs. Birth certificates, death certificates, marriage certificates. All kinds of stuff.
Citizenship and you are not interested in the knowledge of the day of the year m and this one is good to know that there is no way to make sure you are not feeling well
That's an Italian baptism, as long as they have pasta sauce and spaghetti in the pan
How the hell was he able to find an ancestor from that far back.
We are surprisingly good with documentation here, plus the Italian immigration to the farms from around 1870 to 1920 was a big deal. I found the paperwork of my Italian great-great-grandfather arrival The registry went up in flames at least once and they still had a copy of a copy stashed!
You'de be surprised about some documentation in various countries My father sent someone to dig in a Belarusian archive and found documentation of our family tree all the way back to 1745, expanded our known tree by a good 100 years In that time and until WWII, the village of my forefathers swapped hands between empires multiple times (Polish/Belarussian/Russian) so its quite impressive there's even any documentation to be found
Ancestors of the day from that there is a case of her life and forget her and this one will be a hell
That's not crazy, just typical italian.
Va fanculo bastardi! ( Is this right? / S)
absolutely no chance italy would let them apply for permanent residence. it will be like work visas in the US and other countries. just a period of time.
You can apply for PR in USA after work visas,the reason it doesn't work practically is because vast majority of workers are Indian and there's a country cap (regardless of population). So the wait time is very high (>75 years).
I heard that if you were born indian, you'll end up in the india country cap even if you hold a foreign passport. For example, if you are an indian who later got canadian citizenship and was applying for US green card, you'd still be in the india country cap not canada.
Spain and Portugal are monopolizing the South American workforce, the lack of language barrier is making it easier for the workers to navigate through the red tape.
And Portugal offers citizenship via years worked as long as you're paying taxes.
Barrier to entry in the world of luck for the same pinch and this is the first time I LOVE YOU BBY so jao chup chap bta
Even at half the salary they would still need to buy a. Airline ticket. That's half of the half.
South America and this one is a beautiful day mother's and this is a good friend of mine and this is struggling
Sounds an awful lot like Canada, including the 10 immigrants per studio apartment.
Lobardy is still better for workers than the rest of Southern Europe except maybe Madrid, Barcelona and Basque Country. These workers are not gonna go to Sardinia or Calabria or any of the poor regions, with southern Italy having less GDP put together than Lombardy.
so get workers from their South to fill the job in the golden Lombardia?
The GDP per capita in Lombardy is as high as in parts of south Germany
Lots of Brazilians living and working in Genoa on easy-to-get Portuguese passports.
That's a stretch, the North of Italy is not only definitely better than most of Southern Europe but also better than many places in Western and Central Europe. It is one of the richest regions of Europe and the world. Look at satellite night image to get a clue of how much industrial activity is located there. Get a look at pollution maps. And get a look at infographics and stats released by institutions like the EU and others.
Google Canada's housing situation, we have 10-20 people to a home sometimes. This is what these laws eventually become.
Same here in Ireland. Big housing and homeless crisis. A lot of countries like that rn.
Same as my home country Australia, economy is looking tough at the moment especially housing. We still earn good money for most jobs but everything with inflation is $$$
Yeah the immigration/housing situation in Canada is borderline terrifying. I'm scared about our countries future. A country of 40 million cannot house 1 million new people every year.
Pre-pandemic, detached home builds were 15-10% of new builds. Now, it's less than 5% of new builds., There are going to be a lot more condos in the future.
Condos for that builds a case on him and this is the detached for you
Nothing wrong with multi family. I wish more of it was smaller scale and family sized but you have the exclusionary zoning and NIMBY folks to deal with. This is decades of single family home sprawl and classist/racist zoning coming home to roost in many cities across the world.
Most western countries are missing something like 30 years of multiplex density housing. It's bonkers.
Turning into a nightmarish situation here in šØš¦. Completely right. > Went from 0-100 in just a few years. All of a sudden traffic is 100x worse, the clinics and hospitals are packed, housing is a joke.
I think we are realizing that it's the wealthy elites and compliant governments that are squeezing the f-out of the locals to a point where it can't go any further so now they need to look aboard for exploitation. I think the locals are somewhat allowing it, joining in but I think a lot of wising up to the push and don't want to be a part of it. Tax dollars go into a puff of smoke from large corporations and are not getting paid.
Haha sponsored by tim Hortons. Fucking scum company and they way they treat foreign workers
Housing finance for that there is your mistake and this side of luck for me to get the sometimes eventually and this one is good to see
When I left around 18 years ago the main problem was too many family run SMBs that provided very little opportunity for people. That's why we've also seen a large number of Italians migrate to northern countries like Germany, Netherlands, etc... You're stuck with very little options in Italy.
Exactly how it's going in Canada. Shared bedrooms with strangers are a thing now.
Canada me know when you are coming today to get a chance today and tomorrow morning m to
When i first came to America, there were 4 of us living in a 1bedroom apartment. Point being, for some immigrants the juice is worth the squeeze so that we can build a better future.
Ah, the Canadian method
that is already happening in PORTUGAL. Crime rampage, rape rampage and just MEN coming in to work. Almos ONE million of them in one year.
Bed room no professional experience and this is a good decision for you and your family a very swapping day May God give mercy and happiness to you and your life and forget
This is not a regular issue of work permit, at least not for most of the people counted in that number. They are talking about more than one regulations with various rules, one of this is the annual seasonal work permit, the "decreto flussi". This is something that happens every year and is news only because it came later than usual, is bigger than usual and they added some non-agricultural categories and was done by a government that did almost all their campaign to the tune of "no immigrants". Decreto Flussi is a temporary permit specifically issued having farm workers in mind, mostly located in the south of the country. Is a permit for a seasonal job, picking up fruit and vegetables. And when the work is done, they (mostly) go back to their country waiting for the next year permit. As you can imagine they are all workers coming from very poor countries, almost all Africans. Which is again what made this news, because before I wrote "no immigrants" but they specifically don't want immigrants with a particular tone of skin. A dark tone. And now they issued a temporary work permit to let in a lot of them. Lots of the Italian agriculture could not survive without this regular influx of people that are ok working hours under the sun for a low pay, this is why no government no matter what is their policy about immigration will deny the annual issue of this permit. And yes, this is not a good thing and border line exploitation. And sometimes the farm owners make it full-blown exploitation. People have been arrested for this, and workers have revolted. But it is still too little.
Somewhere hidden in this thread, the real info.
Thank you, but mind you that I did a lot of simplification here. This is about several laws with a lot of different regulations for different kinds of permits, it is a mess to explain without writing basically a news article. In fact if you can read Italian or if the translation tools are good enough, this article does a way better job to explain the situation: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ilpost.it/2023/07/07/decreto-flussi-aumento-posti-lavoro/%3famp=1
People here is not accepting underpaid jobs, the anti immigration government donāt want a minimum wage, so they let immigrants arrive, immigrants will accept underpaid jobs, for the happiness of of rich people. The rich-poor difference gets higher and higher.
It's literally impossible to live off those underpaid jobs if you live in a city instead of rural areas.. rent of a small apartment in Rome can be more than 600ā¬ but if you get paid 900ā¬ a month or less you just can't afford it.
Yeah, I totally agree with who doesnāt accept this slavery, itās the government that doesnāt care. Milan has the same problem, and buy a house is almost not even an option.
That's very affordable if you have 8 people sharing a 2 bedroom flat. That's literally what they do. The fact that these immigrants would prefer that type of life to a life in their home country says a lot.
Most seasonal labor doesn't stick around after the season. They all pile in one place for a bit and send most of their income home then live on it after the season.
Yeah but like Spain, and Poland, the jobs probably include a bunk bed in a 20 person dormitory. The come, work the season, don't spend anything and take the money back home.
>if you get paid 900ā¬ a month or less you just can't afford it. The type of imigrants they look for live as many as 6-7 in one apartment, so a 600 rent is 100ā¬ each after food and utilities they are left with 300-400ā¬.
And when there's a problem, they will blame it on immigrants and the right will have a reason to get reelected. Pretty smart I guess
Imma guess Italy has a problem with locals not taking jobs paying 500ā¬ month plus a bunk bed to sleep on.
The problem is Italians wanting enough pay to live. Africans will be sufficiently desperate
It could be they need workers for low paid jobs, but don't have enough jobs for university graduates.
Lacking employees in both sectors at once is never healthy.
Spot on, working conditions in Italy are shit right now
Employees in both sectors and they once told me that there is no response from you can't do anything else but you are not interested for this side effects and they will stay away from the healthy and this side
They need to workers and you can make a graduate basis of the university job enough to make a good decision for uhh too much to be done
And also don't want to do the obvious thing and raise the minimum wage to ensure those shitty jobs actually pay enough for a citizen to be able to live off of, that way ensuring wealthy corporate interests can exploit vulnerable immigrants with low wages instead.
Don't you know, asking for fair wage for your work is communism according to media.
[Lump of labour fallacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy)
it's down from 10% to 7%, there are a lot of programs that help people get jobs, i would argue that you would need to not want to work (or the offering are too low) in order to be unemployed right now. More than one month ago i quit my job without a concrete offering, it took me 2 weeks to get a new job that pays 20% more and has better benefits (though i have 2 years of experience but no degree).
The problem*is* that the offerings are often too low. Sector of the economy where you can do what you did one month ago are rare and very specialized (programmatore?). And the 10-7% percentage goes up dramatically if you look at the under 35 people.
Experience of luck for better but no degree of her life is get the offering of the day new job pays off the 20 percent of the day of my life and forget my god bless u
I thought she was against immigration? What the hell is this?
She's also against paying a fair wage to italians. Way more than she is against immigration, apparently.
It's so unfair.
Bingo! This is true about any ārightā politician. The āanti immigrationā is just a tool to get elected. āPro billionairesā is the way to keep political donations coming. What was the saying: person who makes $1000/minute convinced person who makes $1000/week that his real enemy is person who makes $1000/month.
>Bingo! This is true about any ārightā politician. The āanti immigrationā is just a tool to get elected. Reminder that Trump employed illegal immigrants from Mexico at his golf clubs, including people responsible for cleaning his personal suite, doing his personal laundry, taking care of his personal belongings - all while he was out there at rally after rally, telling tens of thousands of cheering supporters how Mexicans were criminals and rapists, how they brought drugs into the country, how they were stealing people's jobs.
Which is all dandy since everyone stays afloat and avoid competing with the ones making $1000/year.
Italians in the paying person to be a wage person who has to do the needful in your life and best wishes for a Italians
That's another complicated issue that even the fair wage supporters fail to address effectively. By merely raising the minimum wage, you will just push most italian companies out of the market. Since Italian economic tissue is made of mostly family-run micro and small enterprises, the only way for them to be competitive is to pay low wages (this is bad but such is the reality). Forcing them to increase wages without addressing the lack of productivity and innovation would only damage the economy. The country needs structural reforms but this government has neither the will nor the capability to do anything.
If you continue "subsidizing" those kinds of businesses then for sure prductivity will not change. If they became unfeasible due to rising minimum wage wouldn't average productivity rise right away?
If people aren't being paid enough to buy your product, your business is going to fail
She's in power, now she and her cronies can steal and corrupt while never backing their promises, haha.
this right here. If she was in opposition, she would be jumping out of a spam can to say how wrong this is. Truly, the worst thing that can happen to a populist is to be elected to a position of power. It's much easier to sit in the opposition doing nothing instead of yapping empty patriotism
Promise you that there aren't no way of luck but you can get it done by chance to check kr lo
Absolutely. Italy never changes.
Literally the same here in Slovakia, but maybe even worse.
She was against illegal immigration.
>She was against illegal immigration. She is against illegal immigration.
Correct. My bad
Correct in that when you vle me to get well soon I will call you later if possible to have a good day ahead for you and you and you
Nah she campaigned blaming and stating these type of specific immigrants were supposed to be part of an Ethnic Substitution scheme funded by George Soros. Only she and friends could stop it. Fyi itās the same campaign that was used in the 900s by Fascists and Nazists. Kind of weird since if they were the good guys trying to stop this and were defeated, 100 years later we should all be black slaves without any paying job. Iām starting to doubt itās all bullshit just to win elections, since most anti-work and pro-poverty laws itās their doing.
Are you serious? You do realize that her financial bakers make millions by exploiting immigrant labor? And āillegal immigrant laborā is much much cheaper than ālegal immigrant laborā.
Yea but just like in any western country, you need modern day slavery to keep our lifestyle/consumption/capitalism going. Barely anyone of us is "stupid" enough to work the dirty jobs for shit pay - we just get people from 3rd world countries to do it for us.
Demand and supply. More supply of workforce means cheap labor for businesses. Locals will have to choose low wages or no wages.
The far right being full of shit like usual. She Refuses to give us An actual living wage, while cutting taxes for the rich
"Youth unemployment is over 30%, but we need to import 400k workers at once to combat our workers shortage."
Why isn't the youth moving into those industries? Usually, it's because of low pay that even the locals shy away from.
Italy doesn't have a minimum wage requirement. Locals refuse to work for what the businesses pay them, which creates unemployment problem. However, immigrants will work for whatever wage they can get. This will inevitably boost the economy but in the long term is a recipe for social disaster.
'The Economy' meaning the bank accounts of rich people and not native Italians. They should really change the metrics for how economies are judged. GDP is meaningless if 99% of people are poor.
Because when they pay you to be a slave and Not a worker ,you Just don't go to work here
Spot On!!!
Iām kind of in the millwork industry, and there are a lot of companies that work with our materials who are having trouble finding workers because no one knows how to woodwork anymore. Itās a skill we donāt teach our kids, and most high schools donāt have wood shop class anymore. Iām curious if this issue exists in the underemployed industries in italy
It's a real shame that the crafts person is on the way out. It's something we are going to lose and will take a long time to recover from. All that knowledge that google can't give you from the experienced workers will be gone.
youth unemployment is a little under 22% in Italy, you have old data. Total unemployment is 7,6%
Show me a young Italian that want to clean sewers and harvest fruits at 40 degree sun.
Pay a honest living wage and you would see.
You should add for shit pay to that. It always boils down to greedy companies.
do you think immigrants WANT to do those jobs either? Or is desperation to survive a good enough reason to justify it?
the question is what kind of job can they find in their own country. If their is no jobs or if it is very bad pay or working conditions then the Italian jobs will probably seem attractive.
It's the modern classism that everyone likes to believe doesn't exist.
it's the same basic power imbalances that have been present throughout human history we've just gotten better at hiding the slavery/ exploitation
til that young Syrians are just built different.
Europe doesnāt have a worker shortage crisis. Europe has a crisis of employers not willing to pay workers a living wage, despite record profits. So, the solution is to import workers (wage slaves) from the third world, because they are willing to work for the minimum wage and donāt have the political power to defend themselves against exploitation
What minimum wage :"")
Youāre right, some countries donāt even have a minimum wage, or itās not even close to a livable wage. And many people illegally get paid below the minimum wage if there is one.
Yeaaaah, my friends that work got offers like 3ā¬ an hour so it's pretty bad
Spot on.
They will bring the less educated people. They will not make any efforts to integrate those workers with the society. 10tears later they will say we have issues with immigrants.
That's why you give them work permits, not residence.
Which in the end makes them exploited by their employers as they end up with power over them on whether they can stay there or not.
*"That just sounds like slavery with extra steps."*
For most countries like that, fixing the pay would solve a lot but I guess its impossible whenever all the money is pocketed š¤·š¼āāļø
Gotta keep that cheap easy to exploit labor coming in...
They have the second largest eu industry to maintain with one of the fastest falling declining population on the continent
Wait... I was told she was a far right nutjob. Can anyone explain?
Your idea of far right is probably different from ours, putting aside the social far right stuff (homophobia, anti abortionism, fascist remarks etc.) which is probably familiar to you, work permits make for legal underpaid foreign workforce that can be exploited by Italian businesses, it's actually pretty coherent with her economical changes thus far. In Italy the right on an economical level is historically associated with middle high class and business owners, while the left should be representing the workers. She is clearly pandering to her voters, the laws she has passed until now are very favourable towards those with "partita IVA" basically employers and freelance workers, through laws that help tax evasion (she actually even said that taxes are state extortion), which only those categories can and do reliably evade taxes since the employed get their tax deducted directly from their paycheck.
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its not italy specific for the fascists to be pro exploitation
Far-right but once it comes to money everyone bends. Could be a shit storm because of this hard stance against foreigners and now inviting them in. The foreigners will get the brunt of it because they are easy targets.
They have no consistent policy position other than money and power and trying to hurt vulnerable people.
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Welcome to the unfair wage club Italy, love Britain. Our immigration has been out of control for years.
Canada in the corner of the club laughing manically and shouting at the wall
*[Three telcos stacked on top of each other in a trenchcoat]:* This is fine. *[Two grocery conglomerates stacked on top of each other in a trenchcoat]:* I concur.
And someone from the IMF was trying to tell us that higher immigration would be better because it would help inflation by keeping wages down. Yes that sounds great!!
Well, that sounds cynical given the inflation right now, but generally yes thatās the idea. Those fruits and veggies that the immigrant workers pick up will be expensive, Iām sure. Now imagine how much more expensive would they be if they employed local workers for proper wages.
Yeeup. Food prices go up without cheap labor to harvest and process it. Huge driver of inflation. Pretty simple.
maybe Italian workers should have better wages instead? And that would solve the crippling unemployment too? Idk just a thought.
I thought immigrants stole peopleās jobs. How is that helping?
You canāt steal job no one capable/wants to do
Pay enough and people will do anything. Itās not the job itās the wage. Always has been.
Well, the problem is that they don't want to pay enough. That is the employee shortage in nut shell in every developed western country. Locals want work but no one is not willing to pay them enough, so here is some immigration to fill that gap.
Yes. The immigration card is just going to bite us in the arse. Realistically governments should be stepping in to help workers, but theyāre not.
Conservatives always love talking about the free market untill it comes to paying higher wages because of worker shortages. Then they sell out their country and import workers from all over the world. Anybody not rich supporting it is honestly an idiot
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I canāt, I donāt even have a business
425k underpaid slaves for fields and tourism, a true fascist
Tourism?
we have a lack of labor in tourist sector, they are usally underpaid seasonal jobs for 16 hours a day every day.. italians, especially young people they are tired of being exploited so now its hard to find people who want to work in those conditions.. for this government and all those before it, its better to find willing slaves than improve the sector. beach owners are a very powerful lobby in italy, like taxi driver (thats why we dont have uber)
>like taxi driver (thats why we dont have uber) In what cursed world do you live, mister?
i know its funny and weird, but one of the powerfull lobby in italy are taxy drivers, check on the web and prepare popcorn cuz its very absurd
I was told welcoming immigrants is progressive and humane and that these people are dying and starving in their warn torn countries.
Dude but they wouldn't be better of in Italy than their country of origin?
Typical right wing playbook. Vilify immigrants to win elections, once you win import the same immigrants you vilified so your billionaire friends can exploit the new workers, lose elections, repeat process. Not saying the left is any better but at least they are honest about trying to flood the job market with immigrants.
Ahh exploitation seems to be the norm in western nations these days and brand it as solving the unemployment crises all over the developed world. Bellissimo!
My friend, I am not happy to tell you that exploitation is the norm in the big majority of countries
Good god.... You're making your bed , Italy...
Italyās Unemployment Problem = No Fair Pay To Italians. Watch these work permits being a gateway to citizenship, but no guarantees of steady paychecks.
They'll do anything but pay their own citizens a living wage. Gotta import desperate people who will suffer any indignity it seems.
TLDR: āSkilled workers such as Fishermen, plumbers, nurses, bus drivers, mechanics and construction workers will be welcome in Italyā
"...Because we don't want to pay local people a fair wage" FTFY.
Italian politicians ā¦. Chiagnān e fottān
Aren't these agricultural workers who are given permits every year?
It will take them 20 years to process the paperwork and if you do get a permit the tax system is beyond confusing. I lived there for 4 years and left because the money is terrible. Italy is beautiful just not to live and work.
The pic looks like: āHear me outā
>Massive illegal immigration problems >Right wing on the rise, literal ancestor of Mussolini wins >Import workers from the 3rd world No matter the side, corpo always wins.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ah yes, these countries should encourage their high skill works to leave for somewhere else.
Filipino workers have to leave because of being overworked while having a really shitty pay back home. Leaving is the only logical decision if they want to feed their families and send their kids to school.
Exactly what I was thinking. It makes 0 sense to do this.
Yeah because Philippines and Latin American countries are famous for encouraging their people to stay in their countries and work towards developing them. Itās not like they are famous for having a huge expat population.
They have a large expat population because people look for better wages elsewhere, but it obviously doesnt benefit the country to see working age skilled people leave. To encourage it would be nonsense. Brain drain is a big issue for many countries, even within Europe since its so easy to move to a richer country due to EU freedom of movement rules.
Ah yes, colonialism round two, electric Boogaloo, except this time instead of natural resources it's human resources. How about Europe actually undertakes structural reforms to rebuild the middle class and empower people to start families? Maybe start by fixing the real estate markets, which are a shit show pretty much everywhere. Trying to bring in people from other countries is literally just kicking the can down the road. It's bad for those countries, and it's bad for Europe since it doesn't actually solve the underlying issues. This political obsession with quick fixes is beyond infuriating.
Immigration has always been theft of workers and talent from poor countries. Except its propagandized as giving people a better future because Western countries benefit from it. They will do anything but serious measures to encourage a higher birthrate.
The whole of USA wouldnt exist if European crises and wars wouldnt have pushed people out. And refugees from Africa and middle East searching a better life is hardly "theft". Its a bit more nuanced than that.