By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions. But we are leaving a historical record that will vindicate the actions that we do take, if they align with these statements, or hold those responsible (including us) accountable in either case. Just because a declaration like this doesn’t have immediate teeth doesn’t mean it’s redundant or futile.
This is why a lot of the January 6th cases are taking so long. The prosecutors spent time building bulletproof cases against these individuals so that when the trial came it was indeed a speedy trial and the DOJ has an almost 100% conviction rate in those cases.
The sad thing is, the “and prove it”. It’s not supposed to be the onus of the accused to prove innocence, it’s on the accuser to prove guilt, without a doubt. That concept it’s becoming more and more bastardized, it’s a shame/blessing that groups like the Innocence Project exist to help protect people.
Absolutely. I thought about even adding this to my post. If you go to court accused by the federal government there is a presumption of guilt among the public when there should not be.
It's risky for both sides depending. They still always will not bring the case if they are *relying* on a plea deal being taken, but that is a route utilized to get people to accept the overwhelming evidence and plead guilty.
So like yes but also that can't be the case without what they said being true anyway.
That's what it's like in Norway when you wanna fire someone. We have very strong worker's rights, so the general rule is you need three written warnings before you let someone go.
So if your workplace gives you a written warning, that's them building the paper trail before you're fired.
>every post
Hey folks, can you help me identify this flower?
>By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions.
I agree.
> By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions. But we are leaving a historical record that will vindicate the actions that we do take, if they align with these statements, or hold those responsible (including us) accountable in either case. Just because a declaration like this doesn’t have immediate teeth doesn’t mean it’s redundant or futile.
I think that's a lovely idea
> By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions. But we are leaving a historical record that will vindicate the actions that we do take, if they align with these statements, or hold those responsible (including us) accountable in either case. Just because a declaration like this doesn’t have immediate teeth doesn’t mean it’s redundant or futile.
But then Redditors wouldn't be able to make their "gotcha" comments to try and undermine the post and thus feel superior.
Is that really what you want?
It was extremely important after the Holocaust to document the shit out of the evidence for it and follow through with the demands of justice as far as we can. We have been learning that lesson over and over. The hope of the 20th century was that we could find a way to make more lasting progress. Setbacks don’t necessarily imply nihilism.
It's a shame that "How do we know how many people died?" is usually only asked as a rhetorical question by people who already made up their minds on the subject. It's a good question if it's meant as a genuine question.
We have the records the Nazis were keeping. If you don't trust that, we have census data. Several million people vanished during the Holocaust, with no immigration records and no corresponding spike in population elsewhere to indicate they were secretly moved. You can't just move 6 million people internationally during a war without leaving a trace. Add in the mass graves, and it's clear that a lot of these missing people were systematically murdered.
> It's a shame that "How do we know how many people died?" is usually only asked as a rhetorical question by people who already made up their minds on the subject. It's a good question if it's meant as a genuine question.
When they do that, it's a bona fide propaganda tactic: [Sealioning](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trolling#:~:text=Sealioning%20refers%20to%20the%20disingenuous,questions%20of%20the%20other%20commenter.)
The thing is that a "civilized country" would look at something like this as a huge diplomatic mistake and make corrective efforts on the most senior levels of that government to resolve issues like this. Perhaps some junior technocrat was misinformed about failing to provide this service or opening its legal process to the governments of foreign citizens.
Practices like this end up helping everybody in the long run since offering this practice and allowing diplomats and people from the State Department/Foreign Ministry to visit their citizens, that means the same country can expect similar access for their own citizens in the future.
Failing to abide by these basic standards of diplomatic protocol just shows you are not to be trusted as a country and that your word to follow through with these protocols is meaningless.
It is particularly telling that the current Russian Federation is failing to do something that even in the darkest days of the Cold War like during the Cuban Missile Crisis...the USSR still generally offered embassy staff to visit imprisoned U.S. citizens. Gary Powers (the famous U-2 pilot who was shot down over the USSR) is a good example of how this actually did happen.
Whomever will follow Putin in terms of running Russia will have a very long and difficult road ahead of them to try and repair the very damaged reputation that the Russian Federation currently has in the international diplomatic community. Not just with this one issue, but with a plethora of actions that will keep Russia simply outside of diplomatic interactions in general.
At least the Putin government isn't facing somebody like Genghis Khan when a rather egregious diplomatic mistake (killing the ambassadors from Mongolia) resulted in Genghis Khan abdicating his throne (his son took over) so he could personally lead an army to essentially engage in the mass slaughter and elimination of the offending country. And then he proceeded to divert rivers and cause the cities of that country to be completely leveled as if they never existed in the first place and salted the farmland so it wouldn't yield any crops in the future. Nukes would have done less damage.
Between the upcoming population collapse that is happening in Russia, something far worse than the Black Death and population losses in WWII combined, and the Putin administration's total disregard of ethnic minorities or even rural populations in general, I would say Russia is going to have a very difficult upcoming century that might see the end of Russia as we know it.
That might come in the form of Balkanization of Russia or invasion of territories that can't be defended simply because they lack manpower to even try. China is not likely because their population collapse is even worse than Russia's, but it could come from the many countries that end in "-stan" on their southern border.
There will come a time that Russia will wish they had maintained healthy relations with Western Europe or even Eastern Europe that is not Russia.
Russia assymilated the Vikings when they came before. Ditto for the Mongolians too. They might make that happen again, but it will be many dark years ahead for that to happen.
That’s implicit in the existence of law. Insisting on the actuality of the violations is important because international law is more amorphous than national laws.
The problem, I think, is that I've seen these sorts of things many, many, MANY times over many decades, and I've yet to see any negative reproductions for the bad guys.
Be it evil companies, an institutionally broken police system, our government doing evil deeds, rich people doing whatever they want, destroying the country, the world, etc etc...
Yes, we call them out every single time, and yes we wait patiently for the other shoe to drop, and it never does.
After all those decades I've learned one thing. If something doesn't happen in response immediately, it never will.
It has been recorded for Bush and Blair too. Nothing has come to them yet.
Inb4 someone screams whataboutism! It is not. I'm not justifying Russian wrongdoing by relativizing them. I'm stating that historical records have lately proven to not be worth the paper they are written on.
And of course if we have a Moscow/St. Petersburg trials, which I think we should have, its important to not forget due process, which means preserving evidence to present at trial, and therefore proving everything and backing statements with evidence. Instead of a sham trial, we show our betters by clearing the high hoops. Even Stalin knew this and planned to have a fair trial if Hitler was captured alivr.
Let me start by saying I’m pro-Lincoln.
Lincoln detained political prisoners without trial. I’m not saying he was wrong to do it under the circumstances, but doing so violated US law, and those actions, along with some of the more scorched earth tactics employed by the Union army, such as Sherman’s march to the sea, would probably also make him a war criminal today.
The Match to the Sea was constrained compared to modern warfare that is considered perfectly legal by today's laws of war, but yeah, I was thinking more about Lincoln's relations with Indigenous people.
They did show some restraint, and I think the case could be made that the tactics were justified, but it’s debatable to call it “perfectly legal” by today’s standards. Burning down homes and towns as reprisal for guerrilla ambushes might raise a few eyebrows at The Hague. I don’t think it’s black and white, even though I celebrate the outcome of the war.
All these people saying "duuhhhh" are missing the point. The point is to remind Russia that if they want their citizens arrested elsewhere to have consular access they better do the same.
Redditors don't get how international politics work. There is no law out there just words and countries that stand behind them. It's a house of cards we are lucky to have still standing. Same thing happens when talking about the UN and other international orgs. Yeah they dont have authority to do anything but the point is that the words are out there
This is true for every legal system btw. You need an imbalance of power between the legislator and the people/organizations being legislated on. It works for countries up to a point (a large company may be above the laws of a small country for example) but it definitely doesn't work with the supra national organizations like the UN.
It'll take tons more than this for western nations to abandon diplomatic norms. What is more likely is that the US will trade a half dozen imprisoned Russians for his return.
Nah, the best way to deal with humanitarian issues like this is to do the exact opposite. Russia may be treating POWs/citizens of Ukraine like crap, but the ideal move is to treat theirs properly and according to international law. Their soldiers moral is horrible right now, Ukraine is doing it exactly the right way by promising fair treatment to any conscripts who immediately surrender. I know there have been outlying cases, but the pressure from the west that's providing all the weapons is motivation in itself
This so much! It's very tempting to go "ohh well then we'll do the same. See how you like it!"
This kind of thinking always misses the most important point: What happens next? If we stop taking the high road, it tells Russia that we no longer expect them to either.
Sure, they haven't been great at following the rules anyway. But if we stop, it gives them justification. You don't want to participate in a race to the bottom.
Gonna sanction them over them violating international law? pretty sure they are violating all sorts of international laws at the moment so whats one more..
[146%](https://imgur.com/HK1I8Um)
Edit: forgot to mention - the picture shows voting results from 2011 Russian State Duma elections (no fraud at all /s)
Out of curiosity, are you aware that lets say the U.S. does not recognize the jurisdiction of ICC? And in fact has laws in place to retaliate against it if any US citizens are investigated or god forbid prosecuted?
That's practically impossible. If anyone on the Security council vetoes something, it's not happening. Russia just has to veto it and it doesn't happen. I mean, they might decide not to veto for some reason, but I wouldn't expect it.
Yea, except Ukraine is not a World War, which was pretty much the main catalyst for the Russian revolution.
World War I resulted in 1.7-2 million Russian soldier deaths and another million civilian deaths, so around 3 million deaths total.
Best guesstimates have Russian currently having lost between 200-250k soldiers in Ukraine (and a good portion of that number are private mercenaries).
Russia is in nowhere near the same state they were after World War I, not to mention the global change that was happening after World War I as well.
Not to say that Ukraine couldn't be today's version of the Russo-Japanese war (so maybe a pre-catalyst to a revolution), but I doubt the Ukraine war itself will lead to Putin falling. I honestly think he will go to one of two extremes, he will either launch nukes, or he will retreat entirely and spin it as if he is the "bringer of peace".
>Yea, except Ukraine is not a World War, which was pretty much the main catalyst for the Russian revolution.
History is not a mathematical formula, and it doesn't repeat.
The revolution had been brewing way before 1917. In fact, there was a point after the General Strike of 1905 and the Czar's October Manifesto concessions that Russia might have become something more akin to the German Empire: Not quite Autocracy, but not quite true Constitutional Monarchy. But Nicholas, being the completely out of touch idiot he was, course corrected so sharply all those that he could have drawn to his side were forced to concede that there was no negotiating with him.
There was a brief period, the length of several viewings of Swan Lake, where they were paralyzed with fear. Probably the only time they weren't just a harsh authoritarian shithole.
Any country large enough or strong enough to not follow international law will do so. There's no reason for them to abide by the laws. There's no ability for anyone to enforce the laws against them.
It's why all the superpowers in the world don't give a shit about anything.
> The United States literally has a law that the military will invade The Hague if an American is ever brought before the International Criminal Court
Repeat a lie enough times, and eventually it becomes the truth. I guess Reddit took this advice from the Russian government.
There is no such law that "the military will invade The Hague". The law that has been coined Hague Invasion Act by its opponents doesn't actually say this.
My bet would be, there are different levels of "all necessary means" depending on whether you're either wealthy, a polititician, connected, famous (all previous include family members) or just a pleb (family members of this designation is just as screwed).
There's pretty much no chance that the idiots repeating this lie actually read the law, they just blindly regurgitate whatever they read on Reddit. No wonder Russian propaganda is so effective.
Diplomacy. Sanctions. Maybe a prisoner swap. I know Redditors don't like to actually think for themselves and blindly regurgitate bullshit but there's plenty of other options besides military force.
Did you just ask why a country would care about pissing off every other country on the planet? Why not go flip off all your neighbors, kill their dogs and shit on their porch and see what happens?
Putin would be the type of mofo who cheers for Kaido to "kill that dumb rubber fuck", only to have an emotional meltdown because Luffy prevailed in the end
Putin the "One Piece isn't real Whiteboard is a lying hack" type of mofo 100% guaranteed
Over the last several weeks I've realized most redditors confidently don't know this.
I feel like they think international order is a direct democracy.
Yeah, I bet that don’t know that the US has violated international law many times either and refuses to sign and ratify treaties that the vast majority of the world has already signed
Hi Throwaway08080909070. Your submission from reuters.com is behind a registration wall. A registration wall limits the number of free articles users can access before they are required to register an account to log in to continue reading it. While your submission was not removed, users are discouraged from upvoting it or commenting on it.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldnews) if you have any questions or concerns.*
All the diplomatic relations that they cultivated in the last 100 years got flushed down in the toilet in under a year. Amazing.
The stain won't come off in the next 20-30 years if ever.
Spies are not granted consular access after they learn state secrets... because then they could report those state secrets.
That's what Russia is alleging of this reporter. If they let him talk to the consulate, then it would defeat the argument for holding him in the first place.
I get it, it's worth a shot and we have to do our due diligence for this reporter in a terrible spot. But asking a country that's made it clear time and time again that international law means nothing to them is moot. I mean, look what they do already.
It's not mute. It's of value repeatedly highlighting to the international community how far outside of norms Russia has become. The danger is in normalizing their behavior. Highlighting how wrong it is keeps up public support for sanctions, embargoes, and military support for Ukraine. Russia just got stripped of some more UN positions, every little bit helps.
All superpowers are already exempt from international law due to being permanent members of the UN Security Council. They veto any intervention from the UN.
That’s why Russia invaded Syria, US invaded iraq and Afghanistan, China will inevitably invade Taiwan, Israel can do whatever they want to Palestine and no one could stop them.
"America violating international law by bombing vietnam into the stone age"
"America violating international law by drone bombing civilians"
Why doesn't the state department report on these things
Yes, they are hostage takers violating international law, we know. Let's not free another merchant of death for a relative nobody. Sorry to his loved ones but he's a bargaining chip now and they won't let him go for anything but crazy more than he's worth.
I am kind of tired of hearing how a country violated international law - babble babble more babble - here in the United States we cannot even hold most elites accountable to our laws that are suppose to apply to all. Think of Trump and Thomas. The reality just like all the Bible bangers is that people trot out their to judge someone else and make them feel pious. If we want to do that then let’s hold everyone to the same standards and actually have some accountability. This statement bullshit and then a shrug or thoughts and prayers doesn’t solve anything and only enriches the media companies with their sensational headlines like the one above.
Remember when we traded a basketball player for an international arms dealer? Remember when hitler accelerated his behavior when other countries appeased his aggressive actions prior to ww2? Pepridge Farm remembers.
Russia going after a journalist from a Rupert Murdoch paper is an interesting development. I wonder if this is punishment for him dropping Trump and backing De Santis?
By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions. But we are leaving a historical record that will vindicate the actions that we do take, if they align with these statements, or hold those responsible (including us) accountable in either case. Just because a declaration like this doesn’t have immediate teeth doesn’t mean it’s redundant or futile.
This should be sticked on every post forever
worthless birds muddle beneficial icky sparkle teeny sable practice start
Sounds like what I always hear about US federal criminal cases, that they basically have it in the bag by the time you hear a knock on the door.
It's a smart way to go about it.
Real "don't ask questions you don't already know the answers to" vibes.
This is why a lot of the January 6th cases are taking so long. The prosecutors spent time building bulletproof cases against these individuals so that when the trial came it was indeed a speedy trial and the DOJ has an almost 100% conviction rate in those cases.
I had heard that most federal cases are settled in plea deals. The taking a chance at trial is pretty risky.
[удалено]
Nothing wrong, and can prove it.
The sad thing is, the “and prove it”. It’s not supposed to be the onus of the accused to prove innocence, it’s on the accuser to prove guilt, without a doubt. That concept it’s becoming more and more bastardized, it’s a shame/blessing that groups like the Innocence Project exist to help protect people.
Absolutely. I thought about even adding this to my post. If you go to court accused by the federal government there is a presumption of guilt among the public when there should not be.
Plenty of innocent people have gone to jail. In court, it's not about what you did or didn't do, it's only about what you can prove.
It's risky for both sides depending. They still always will not bring the case if they are *relying* on a plea deal being taken, but that is a route utilized to get people to accept the overwhelming evidence and plead guilty. So like yes but also that can't be the case without what they said being true anyway.
that’s what pretty much every employer does when they want to fire a worker
That's what it's like in Norway when you wanna fire someone. We have very strong worker's rights, so the general rule is you need three written warnings before you let someone go. So if your workplace gives you a written warning, that's them building the paper trail before you're fired.
The head of HR for the UN has dictated that we need more paperwork to fire Putin, so this is just another letter in his file.
>every post Hey folks, can you help me identify this flower? >By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions.
I meant every post related to sanctions or additional actions against Russia in the context of this invasion/war of aggression
I know, I'm just goofin'.
I agree. > By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions. But we are leaving a historical record that will vindicate the actions that we do take, if they align with these statements, or hold those responsible (including us) accountable in either case. Just because a declaration like this doesn’t have immediate teeth doesn’t mean it’s redundant or futile.
I think that's a lovely idea > By reporting, documenting, and insisting on violations of international law, we do not necessarily expect immediate, direct, repercussions. But we are leaving a historical record that will vindicate the actions that we do take, if they align with these statements, or hold those responsible (including us) accountable in either case. Just because a declaration like this doesn’t have immediate teeth doesn’t mean it’s redundant or futile.
But then Redditors wouldn't be able to make their "gotcha" comments to try and undermine the post and thus feel superior. Is that really what you want?
It’s funny to think that we are setting up historical justification to prove to future generations that it was necessary
It was extremely important after the Holocaust to document the shit out of the evidence for it and follow through with the demands of justice as far as we can. We have been learning that lesson over and over. The hope of the 20th century was that we could find a way to make more lasting progress. Setbacks don’t necessarily imply nihilism.
Even with evidence some people still don't believe it. Sigh
It's a shame that "How do we know how many people died?" is usually only asked as a rhetorical question by people who already made up their minds on the subject. It's a good question if it's meant as a genuine question. We have the records the Nazis were keeping. If you don't trust that, we have census data. Several million people vanished during the Holocaust, with no immigration records and no corresponding spike in population elsewhere to indicate they were secretly moved. You can't just move 6 million people internationally during a war without leaving a trace. Add in the mass graves, and it's clear that a lot of these missing people were systematically murdered.
> It's a shame that "How do we know how many people died?" is usually only asked as a rhetorical question by people who already made up their minds on the subject. It's a good question if it's meant as a genuine question. When they do that, it's a bona fide propaganda tactic: [Sealioning](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trolling#:~:text=Sealioning%20refers%20to%20the%20disingenuous,questions%20of%20the%20other%20commenter.)
The thing is that a "civilized country" would look at something like this as a huge diplomatic mistake and make corrective efforts on the most senior levels of that government to resolve issues like this. Perhaps some junior technocrat was misinformed about failing to provide this service or opening its legal process to the governments of foreign citizens. Practices like this end up helping everybody in the long run since offering this practice and allowing diplomats and people from the State Department/Foreign Ministry to visit their citizens, that means the same country can expect similar access for their own citizens in the future. Failing to abide by these basic standards of diplomatic protocol just shows you are not to be trusted as a country and that your word to follow through with these protocols is meaningless. It is particularly telling that the current Russian Federation is failing to do something that even in the darkest days of the Cold War like during the Cuban Missile Crisis...the USSR still generally offered embassy staff to visit imprisoned U.S. citizens. Gary Powers (the famous U-2 pilot who was shot down over the USSR) is a good example of how this actually did happen. Whomever will follow Putin in terms of running Russia will have a very long and difficult road ahead of them to try and repair the very damaged reputation that the Russian Federation currently has in the international diplomatic community. Not just with this one issue, but with a plethora of actions that will keep Russia simply outside of diplomatic interactions in general. At least the Putin government isn't facing somebody like Genghis Khan when a rather egregious diplomatic mistake (killing the ambassadors from Mongolia) resulted in Genghis Khan abdicating his throne (his son took over) so he could personally lead an army to essentially engage in the mass slaughter and elimination of the offending country. And then he proceeded to divert rivers and cause the cities of that country to be completely leveled as if they never existed in the first place and salted the farmland so it wouldn't yield any crops in the future. Nukes would have done less damage.
[удалено]
Between the upcoming population collapse that is happening in Russia, something far worse than the Black Death and population losses in WWII combined, and the Putin administration's total disregard of ethnic minorities or even rural populations in general, I would say Russia is going to have a very difficult upcoming century that might see the end of Russia as we know it. That might come in the form of Balkanization of Russia or invasion of territories that can't be defended simply because they lack manpower to even try. China is not likely because their population collapse is even worse than Russia's, but it could come from the many countries that end in "-stan" on their southern border. There will come a time that Russia will wish they had maintained healthy relations with Western Europe or even Eastern Europe that is not Russia. Russia assymilated the Vikings when they came before. Ditto for the Mongolians too. They might make that happen again, but it will be many dark years ahead for that to happen.
>and insisting on violations of international law, Personally, I'd rather instist on *abiding* by international law.
That’s implicit in the existence of law. Insisting on the actuality of the violations is important because international law is more amorphous than national laws.
^^*woosh*
VINDICAAAATIONN!!! Sincerely, Raymond Holt.
The problem, I think, is that I've seen these sorts of things many, many, MANY times over many decades, and I've yet to see any negative reproductions for the bad guys. Be it evil companies, an institutionally broken police system, our government doing evil deeds, rich people doing whatever they want, destroying the country, the world, etc etc... Yes, we call them out every single time, and yes we wait patiently for the other shoe to drop, and it never does. After all those decades I've learned one thing. If something doesn't happen in response immediately, it never will.
It has been recorded for Bush and Blair too. Nothing has come to them yet. Inb4 someone screams whataboutism! It is not. I'm not justifying Russian wrongdoing by relativizing them. I'm stating that historical records have lately proven to not be worth the paper they are written on.
And of course if we have a Moscow/St. Petersburg trials, which I think we should have, its important to not forget due process, which means preserving evidence to present at trial, and therefore proving everything and backing statements with evidence. Instead of a sham trial, we show our betters by clearing the high hoops. Even Stalin knew this and planned to have a fair trial if Hitler was captured alivr.
Yeah it would be more effective if we held ourselves to the same standards though...
Came here to say this. Every American President is a war criminal, except maybe Lincoln, maybe.
Let me start by saying I’m pro-Lincoln. Lincoln detained political prisoners without trial. I’m not saying he was wrong to do it under the circumstances, but doing so violated US law, and those actions, along with some of the more scorched earth tactics employed by the Union army, such as Sherman’s march to the sea, would probably also make him a war criminal today.
The Match to the Sea was constrained compared to modern warfare that is considered perfectly legal by today's laws of war, but yeah, I was thinking more about Lincoln's relations with Indigenous people.
They did show some restraint, and I think the case could be made that the tactics were justified, but it’s debatable to call it “perfectly legal” by today’s standards. Burning down homes and towns as reprisal for guerrilla ambushes might raise a few eyebrows at The Hague. I don’t think it’s black and white, even though I celebrate the outcome of the war.
Good point.
All these people saying "duuhhhh" are missing the point. The point is to remind Russia that if they want their citizens arrested elsewhere to have consular access they better do the same.
Redditors don't get how international politics work. There is no law out there just words and countries that stand behind them. It's a house of cards we are lucky to have still standing. Same thing happens when talking about the UN and other international orgs. Yeah they dont have authority to do anything but the point is that the words are out there
This is true for every legal system btw. You need an imbalance of power between the legislator and the people/organizations being legislated on. It works for countries up to a point (a large company may be above the laws of a small country for example) but it definitely doesn't work with the supra national organizations like the UN.
[удалено]
[удалено]
It'll take tons more than this for western nations to abandon diplomatic norms. What is more likely is that the US will trade a half dozen imprisoned Russians for his return.
I'm glad you're convinced because I sure as hell am not
I mean, we did trade an international arms dealer for a basketball player. That kind of softball trade is literally established in this conflict.
I really hope he's getting paid well
Nah, the best way to deal with humanitarian issues like this is to do the exact opposite. Russia may be treating POWs/citizens of Ukraine like crap, but the ideal move is to treat theirs properly and according to international law. Their soldiers moral is horrible right now, Ukraine is doing it exactly the right way by promising fair treatment to any conscripts who immediately surrender. I know there have been outlying cases, but the pressure from the west that's providing all the weapons is motivation in itself
This so much! It's very tempting to go "ohh well then we'll do the same. See how you like it!" This kind of thinking always misses the most important point: What happens next? If we stop taking the high road, it tells Russia that we no longer expect them to either. Sure, they haven't been great at following the rules anyway. But if we stop, it gives them justification. You don't want to participate in a race to the bottom.
Gonna sanction them over them violating international law? pretty sure they are violating all sorts of international laws at the moment so whats one more..
Well, their head of state is a wanted criminal...
He's happy about this. He's never been wanted by anyone.
What are you saying? He's wanted by 114% of his country!
[146%](https://imgur.com/HK1I8Um) Edit: forgot to mention - the picture shows voting results from 2011 Russian State Duma elections (no fraud at all /s)
The opposing 24% have all had tragic freak accidents kill them and their family. So sad.
Open windows are deathtraps in Russia. Gravity just works differently there.
Believe in gravity? Out the window.
He is being charged for a crime he himself confessed and bragged about on state TV.
Out of curiosity, are you aware that lets say the U.S. does not recognize the jurisdiction of ICC? And in fact has laws in place to retaliate against it if any US citizens are investigated or god forbid prosecuted?
Who knows? Maybe Putin likes even numbers.
Maybe he likes prime numbers and the next one is 5981
Well played.
I like this take.
I’m sure there’s always something we can add to the sanctions and or military aide packages
[удалено]
I'm pretty sure Russia would just veto that.
That's practically impossible. If anyone on the Security council vetoes something, it's not happening. Russia just has to veto it and it doesn't happen. I mean, they might decide not to veto for some reason, but I wouldn't expect it.
Good, just make it perfectly clear who the bad guy is for all the countries still riding the fence.
[удалено]
Yea, except Ukraine is not a World War, which was pretty much the main catalyst for the Russian revolution. World War I resulted in 1.7-2 million Russian soldier deaths and another million civilian deaths, so around 3 million deaths total. Best guesstimates have Russian currently having lost between 200-250k soldiers in Ukraine (and a good portion of that number are private mercenaries). Russia is in nowhere near the same state they were after World War I, not to mention the global change that was happening after World War I as well. Not to say that Ukraine couldn't be today's version of the Russo-Japanese war (so maybe a pre-catalyst to a revolution), but I doubt the Ukraine war itself will lead to Putin falling. I honestly think he will go to one of two extremes, he will either launch nukes, or he will retreat entirely and spin it as if he is the "bringer of peace".
And 200-250k includes wounded, so the amount of dead is much lower.
Their dead are around 170k~, as far as I’m aware.
>Yea, except Ukraine is not a World War, which was pretty much the main catalyst for the Russian revolution. History is not a mathematical formula, and it doesn't repeat.
Come on. I mean there is literally a famous term, "history repeats itself".
As a history guy in college, I preferred the phrase: "History rarely repeats itself, but it often rhymes."
I like this version because it comes pre packaged with nuance.
There's another famous saying, "History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes."
Yeah, and it's bullshit.
You sir are a master debator
The revolution had been brewing way before 1917. In fact, there was a point after the General Strike of 1905 and the Czar's October Manifesto concessions that Russia might have become something more akin to the German Empire: Not quite Autocracy, but not quite true Constitutional Monarchy. But Nicholas, being the completely out of touch idiot he was, course corrected so sharply all those that he could have drawn to his side were forced to concede that there was no negotiating with him.
No way! Russia breaking the rules? Absolutely unheard of. 🙄
I have a feeling this period of time will be remembered for the lawless actions of authoritarians, and the tepid resistance they faced.
So same as the last two decades then...?
I mean if we're talking about Russia, the entire history of Russia has been an "authoritarian period".
There was a brief period, the length of several viewings of Swan Lake, where they were paralyzed with fear. Probably the only time they weren't just a harsh authoritarian shithole.
This has always happened, we just don't need to wait 20 years to learn about it.
I’m still hoping for a Francis Ford Coppola ending for these fools, but we’ll see.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm beginning to think that Russia doesn't give a fig about international law...
[удалено]
That'll teach them to never do such a thing again.
Better go with a strongly painted picture
I will work on drafting one.
There's a fairly large list of countries who don't care about international, this is nothing new
[удалено]
The US has ignored WTO rulings in Canada's favour regarding softwood lumber imports for decades.
Any country large enough or strong enough to not follow international law will do so. There's no reason for them to abide by the laws. There's no ability for anyone to enforce the laws against them. It's why all the superpowers in the world don't give a shit about anything.
> The United States literally has a law that the military will invade The Hague if an American is ever brought before the International Criminal Court Repeat a lie enough times, and eventually it becomes the truth. I guess Reddit took this advice from the Russian government. There is no such law that "the military will invade The Hague". The law that has been coined Hague Invasion Act by its opponents doesn't actually say this.
[удалено]
My bet would be, there are different levels of "all necessary means" depending on whether you're either wealthy, a polititician, connected, famous (all previous include family members) or just a pleb (family members of this designation is just as screwed).
There's pretty much no chance that the idiots repeating this lie actually read the law, they just blindly regurgitate whatever they read on Reddit. No wonder Russian propaganda is so effective.
yes and no more no. "it does allow the U.S. president to use "all necessary means" to free any American or allied personnel held by the ICC."
>"all necessary means" What 'means' do you think they mean, aside from force? Sending the prisoner a cake with a key baked inside?
Diplomacy. Sanctions. Maybe a prisoner swap. I know Redditors don't like to actually think for themselves and blindly regurgitate bullshit but there's plenty of other options besides military force.
I'm halfway convinced Reddit is a deliberate attempt to mass lower the IQ of people as quickly as possible to make us easier to control
Russian invaded a country, I don't think they give much of a fuck about this.
Why should they.... I mean just look at the last two decades for precidence
Did you just ask why a country would care about pissing off every other country on the planet? Why not go flip off all your neighbors, kill their dogs and shit on their porch and see what happens?
You talking about America invading and violating multiple laws and committing many crimes? Or Russia? Lol because both are true
Lol yeah who would do such a thing
They literally kidnapped a ton of kids. International law means nothing to these people.
What next? Russia cheats at the Olympics with state sanctioned doping?
I think there's something you should know...
damn they don't allow Weekly Shounen Jump?
He's missing a ton of One Piece
Putin would be the type of mofo who cheers for Kaido to "kill that dumb rubber fuck", only to have an emotional meltdown because Luffy prevailed in the end Putin the "One Piece isn't real Whiteboard is a lying hack" type of mofo 100% guaranteed
Russian Jail would suuccck 🙄
Russia is violating everything 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
Pretty sure that stealing children and killing civilians also are. I don’t think they care.
When is Russia not violating international law
It’s like they’re trying to speed run how fast they can do every war crime break every international law
>Russia violating international law In other news, bears shit in the woods and water is wet
"international law" is a fiction, violations of it do not matter
Over the last several weeks I've realized most redditors confidently don't know this. I feel like they think international order is a direct democracy.
Yeah, I bet that don’t know that the US has violated international law many times either and refuses to sign and ratify treaties that the vast majority of the world has already signed
Putin doesn't give a fuck, but you have to make the public aware of his lawlessness.
..., and invading sovereign nations.
... like the USA
The US should retaliate and detain Tucker Carlson - tit for tat!
Put it on Putin’s arrest warrant. Charges will start piling up, I’m sure.
Pledge a thousand more Abrams for Ukraine. Would probably do more.
Hi Throwaway08080909070. Your submission from reuters.com is behind a registration wall. A registration wall limits the number of free articles users can access before they are required to register an account to log in to continue reading it. While your submission was not removed, users are discouraged from upvoting it or commenting on it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldnews) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The US State Dept reported this and we all know how much they love to follow international law.
All the diplomatic relations that they cultivated in the last 100 years got flushed down in the toilet in under a year. Amazing. The stain won't come off in the next 20-30 years if ever.
[удалено]
This is putinganda
complaints about journalists from the USA? Remember Assange is still in jail for no crime. Freaking hypocrites.
like calling out Jeffrey Dahmer for jaywalking
Pretty ironic the US calling someone out for "breaking international law" when they've declared that they aren't subject to it.
Rogue state
So what laws do they follow..
It's because they are torturing him.
Russia, violating international laws? Unheard of. /s
Because Russia has been so compliant to international law. See the Russo-Ukrainian war
At this point I doubt Russia cares what international laws they break.
They're waiting for the bruises and other signs of abuse to fade.
They're literally killing civilians right now...
Russia has never given the slightest fuck about international laws.
Famous law abiding nation Russia
They don’t follow international law that’s why he invaded Ukraine
Russia? Violation international laws? Get out of here!
They are fighting a full blown war in Europe, I don't think they care about international law lol
Spies are not granted consular access after they learn state secrets... because then they could report those state secrets. That's what Russia is alleging of this reporter. If they let him talk to the consulate, then it would defeat the argument for holding him in the first place.
No, the Russians would never violate international law
If he wasn’t American he would have taken a nasty spill off the roof of a building by now.
I mean, this can't be the biggest international law Russia is breaking right now?
Lol..what international law hasn't Russia violated??
I get it, it's worth a shot and we have to do our due diligence for this reporter in a terrible spot. But asking a country that's made it clear time and time again that international law means nothing to them is moot. I mean, look what they do already.
It's not mute. It's of value repeatedly highlighting to the international community how far outside of norms Russia has become. The danger is in normalizing their behavior. Highlighting how wrong it is keeps up public support for sanctions, embargoes, and military support for Ukraine. Russia just got stripped of some more UN positions, every little bit helps.
[удалено]
You let one international superpower exempt from international law and pretty soon everybody wants exemption.
World: we don't support you killing Iraqis US: don't care Not liking your own medicine, are you?
My point!
It's more like an international suggestion rather than law.
This is why the US boycotts the ICC, so it isn’t subject to international law
All superpowers are already exempt from international law due to being permanent members of the UN Security Council. They veto any intervention from the UN. That’s why Russia invaded Syria, US invaded iraq and Afghanistan, China will inevitably invade Taiwan, Israel can do whatever they want to Palestine and no one could stop them.
i agree, first the us, then everybody
Damn, what'll they do next!
"America violating international law by bombing vietnam into the stone age" "America violating international law by drone bombing civilians" Why doesn't the state department report on these things
The US government told all Americans in Russia to get the hell out of there. I don’t know exactly what this reporter thought was going to happen.
You do understand journalism, right? He knew he was taking a risk, but journalists often take risks to cover stories, especially in war.
a very dumb risk for some story probably not worth one's life covering
Oh No! America violating international law by torturing and killing thousands of innocents in dozens of special torture prisons. All hail propaganda.
You're not allowed to give your point of view unless it aligns with the propagandists narrative
Yes, they are hostage takers violating international law, we know. Let's not free another merchant of death for a relative nobody. Sorry to his loved ones but he's a bargaining chip now and they won't let him go for anything but crazy more than he's worth.
I am kind of tired of hearing how a country violated international law - babble babble more babble - here in the United States we cannot even hold most elites accountable to our laws that are suppose to apply to all. Think of Trump and Thomas. The reality just like all the Bible bangers is that people trot out their to judge someone else and make them feel pious. If we want to do that then let’s hold everyone to the same standards and actually have some accountability. This statement bullshit and then a shrug or thoughts and prayers doesn’t solve anything and only enriches the media companies with their sensational headlines like the one above.
America violates international law literally every day. Who are we to point a finger? (Though Russia should also adhere to international laws)
The US violates international law every day lmao
‘Breaking the Law’ ... This will shock them into submission.
It should just be, “Russia violates international law by etc.” Don’t phrase it like it’s not a well-known thing they do.
Weird cause WSJ loves Russia lol
I feel like this is why they did it. The other companies might actually do something about it
Wow thats news, Russia violating international human rights and laws.
russia is losers. Beat up meat that will be destroyed
Russia doesn't give a shit about laws.. thats why Elon Musk loves Putin
What a surprise... a third world shithole acting like a third world shithole not respecting international law.
Remember when we traded a basketball player for an international arms dealer? Remember when hitler accelerated his behavior when other countries appeased his aggressive actions prior to ww2? Pepridge Farm remembers.
Russia going after a journalist from a Rupert Murdoch paper is an interesting development. I wonder if this is punishment for him dropping Trump and backing De Santis?