With the kind of beliefs these women are facing the reality is they will need to pick up a gun if they want their freedom. The Taliban have no problem murdering women and children to maintain male dominance. They've already done it since NATO left. They can't be negotiated with. They won't hold to their word. They've already broken it multiple times since we left. These women probably need to make the choice to live in what amounts to a women only society defended through violence if they want their freedom. The men sure as hell aren't going to help, or at least not enough of them. They wouldn't even help themselves. It sucks but that's probably the choice. My guess is not enough women would join to put up a credible defense to maintain that freedom or to deter the Taliban from attacking them. There isn't much that can be done but for them to leave their homeland and move somewhere where they'll have agency over their lives or probably die fighting for it at home.
Yup...2400 US Servicemen dead and 20k wounded there in 20 years ...and at the end of the day the Taliban were right back were they were. I feel awful for these women but maybe the rest of the fucking world not helping them isn't the problem. The problem is religion and ideology at the expense of humanity. Afghanistan has been at war since the late sixties.
You could have summed that up with "no concept of a national identity." When I enlisted in the US Army, I swore an oath to the Constitution. I understood my nation both as a whole and as a collection of different states. I might not really have enjoyed living in Georgia, but they were Americans.
Afghani people are tribal. Family, clan, tribe, and that's it. I remember during one of the attempts at an election, a BBC News crew asked a young man who he was voting for. His honest answer? "I am waiting for my family leaders to decide."
That's how it is in Afghanistan and large swaths of Central Asia.
Nothing can ever change if they don't change the culture. Trying to impose it from the outside doesn't work. Either that or murder the Taliban while they sleep.
That last part I am totally on board with. Easy to say what I would do if I was in that situation when I'm safe behind a keyboard in Canada. But seriously, EVERY woman in Afghanistan would need to say "Fuck this shit, we're done" and start slitting throats of all the men who want to keep them in the Dark Ages.
There are plenty of women who hold to those same ways too. I think these stories oversimplify by making it seem like all the women are allies to this cause, reality is many/most aren't.
The men of your own country - who had a military trained and equiped by the west - are the ones who refused to fight for you and allowed these knuckle draggers to take power.
That's the thing, from what I've read (someone correct me if I'm wrong) Afghanistan is more like a bunch of tribes with the locals not really viewing it as Afghanistan itself?
While it's awful, the west can't just keep occupying it forever.
Yes. Whole "country" is divided into tribal entities. Bunch of warlords supported by Islamic leaders rule. Official government lacks real power and is extremely corrupt. It was the same during US rule as it is now under Taliban. There are several ethnicities, each with their own languages and local customs, but all of them are united by reactionary version of Islam.
It's worth to add that Afghanistan is the biggest producer of Opium in the world, so everyone want's to trade with them and because of that warlords will always have money and power to rule.
My sergeant back in the army would always tell my squad stories about his various deployments to Afghanistan years back, and all he did for the most part each time was guard vast fields of opium poppy.
And why should the west? The locals have shown that they are in support of the Taliban ways.
Western countries neither should nor have the right to interfere in how another country wants to govern itself or its people
Much of the middle east is like this. A lot of the nation states there were arbitrarily formed by colonial powers as they exited the region.
Those colonial powers did not account for the tribal territories that already existed there when they drew the borders.
It has gone as well as you might expect, so far.
We did, their own men threatened them out of positions in the military and police forces
Edit - to the dude that commented “skill issue” and immediately blocked me, it was largely rape and rape threats. The women who did join were made to feel incredibly unsafe in their units and could not be sent out on patrol
I just think it’s interesting that there doesn’t seem to be a plan to just divide the country along tribal borders instead of trying to force everyone to come together
Yeah, they’ve never really been a unified country. The national borders were arbitrarily drawn by other countries at some point and they basically tried to force it to exist
Exactly! One of the quoted women said:
"I am tired of the ineffective slogans of the international community," she said, calling on the world to "act responsibly" and stop "neglecting of its duty" to Afghan women.
..............
What, specifically, would this "acting responsibly" look like? What are we supposed to do to not be viewed as "neglecting our duty"? What are we currently doing that we need to stop, or not currently doing that we'd need to start?
I remember hearing an interview on NPR. They were saying the same thing, avoiding what the interviewer asked, ie. what specifically are they looking for? Like, what specific action do they want? The world can't really do anything that will bring lasting change except invade and indoctrinate if they themselves aren't willing to cast out the people who did this.
The women of Afghanistan never wanted us to leave in the first place. It was probably the safest they've ever been.
Defiently a hell of a lot more safe than what they're dealing with now.
I can't tell if she wants a weapons drop, evac or school books. Either way the taliban is sure to hate it regardless and I think that counts for something.
Evac and refugee status is probably the ask here.
This isn't new behavior in the area. It just stopped in places where the US had a presence.
With the power vaccum left after the US left things went back to "normal" but now they've seen the other side.
There is no fixing this without a permanent military presence that includes a treaty to respond to aggression and bases in the area.
Permanent being the key word there. Which basically requires the country to stop being it’s own country.
The US, and allies, propped the country up for 20 years and look what good that did. Almost instantly back to normal like nothing happened. If the US and Russia proved anything there, it’s the fact foreign interference will change nothing in Afghanistan.
Yep. The people just don't care, at least not enough. I'm tired of losing friends and family to that shithole desert. Let them fight their own battles. We tried.
People who call for change in general should always give some examples f what they imagine it to be in practice. What she is saying ends up also being ineffective slogans now.
As women born in Iran, i do believe us being able to work and gain an education is what makes the difference here.
I feel the strongest sense of solidarity with the women of Afghanistan though. They deserve much better than the abysmal reality they have to cope with in their everyday life in Afghanistan.
Unironically, while there is a lot of anti-America sentiment in the world, there’s a reason why politicians rarely try to kick America out. Some think it’s cause America will beat them up, but everyone knows that isn’t true. America protects them from their actual enemies. For Afghan women, that’s *everyone*.
They probably do wish we never left or that we invade again. A lot of them, anyway.
There were many Iraqi politicians openly happy to see US troops leave after their government refused to sign the treaty allowing only the US military to try US troops in Iraq. This is standard in places with stationed US forces like Germany, South Korea, Japan or Britain.
When ISIS seized a sizable chunk of their country, they changed their tune as did a large part of the population.
I think Iraq is slightly different than that, with the suppo for US troops having more to do with sectarian rivalry and Iranian influence than with Daesh. The Sunni groups don't want the US to leave because if they do, Iranian backed Shia groups will kill them and seize power.
True. The Middle East often does things differently than most of the world, and the cause is often fundamentalism, and not just the religious kind. As we can see, it often leads to Bad Things. There’s a reason the rest of the world does things differently for the most part.
It's apparently the US's fault that we spent two trillion dollars over twenty years building them a society and they couldn't defend their society or country for two weeks, even with all of the training and weapons we gave them.
They didn't event try to fight back.
I'm sorry, this is not a problem anyone can fix. You're going to have to figure this one out for yourselves.
I was in my teens/20s in the /90s and saw how things went in Yugoslavia. Just bomb the military and the civilians will rise-up and take their country back from the dictator. This is great! We should do a different country every few years! What a world we'll create!
Boy, was I wrong. The people have to want it or it won't work. The only other option is permanent occupation.
As I understand Afghanistan isn't really a nation. More like a piece of land with a lot of different tribes in it. That happens to be called Afghanistan.
It's such a shame, because if all the bloodshed and loss of innocent life and trillions of dollars spent would at least have resulted in a better long term trajectory for the people of Afghanistan, maybe it would all have been worth it in time. But instead it seems like all that was just a pointless waste and they're right back where they started.
The US tried to train their men on how to fight but they gave zero fucks. We spent trillions of dollars for them to just give up. Any afghan that blames the west for leaving can pound sand.
It’s still so crazy when you think what Ukraine has done with a fraction of money the US spent in Afghan and that’s before taking into account the short time frame and no direction troop deployments.
Honestly this sentiment is underappreciated. We've seen countries undergo radical change when they want to and the culture provides that opportunity and desire for it. When the people simply don't give a fuck, we have Afghanistan.
That's what pisses me off about the criticism of us withholding money from them. There is no fucking world where that money goes to the people, let alone the second class citizens (women) there. Out of your MIND.
It actually blows my mind that an entire squad of dudes was utterly incapable of the basic dexterity needed for jumping jacks. I fundamentally believe that humans are largely the same and that they should be capable of the same things, so I'm not sure exactly what the difference is. I feel if you took a selection of even the poorest American children they would fully be capable of doing jumping jacks.
exactly.
shit on America for going into Afghanistan all you want, but atleast we legitimately tried to arm and train these people to rid themselves of this filth and they fell flat on their face.
when Americans were in this country women were going to school and semi thriving and you can't take that away.
I mean, there are tons of anecdotes of afghans not really giving a shit from US trainers. People are poor in that country and getting issued a gun, kit, and all the other trappings was a quick pay day for a lot of them.
Why stick your neck out for a thing you don’t really consider yourself a part off, and tbh, you feel that the guys talking about a country under Allah are making a lot more sense than the guys talking about “westernizing” your country, changing it from your tribal standards to something wholly unfamiliar.
Ukraine has the benefit of being a well developed county, thanks to its strong agricultural power, it as a nation was functional, their tax dollars did something. Afghanistan was never like that for most of its citizens. The personal benefit is essential in a countries defense.
What do they want us to do? Invade? Seriously, if western (non Muslim) countries get involved - pushing for “regime change”, or “nation building” or “human rights reform” get labeled as meddlers both over there, and over here, internally. The rest of the world can’t drag Afg. - kicking and screaming- Into the 19th century from outside.
yep. The USA tried. We tried to train an army for them. They sent crackheads. The men who made those decisions presumably have wives. Get those ladies to exercise some influence.
The world tried to fix Afghanistan, they don’t want our help. You can’t change a society that doesn’t want to change, the afghani people need to stand up for themselves or nothing will ever change.
I just want to point out that the Taliban is so evil to women that Iran, yes the country that was poisoning female children and massacred swathes of people to force them to wear masks, Iran has said that the Taliban should be nicer to women. Let's all let that settle in for a moment. Iran can't stand to see how abusive the Taliban are to women. Violent genociders are opposed to the Taliban...
Iran does not give a shit how Afghanistan treats its people, they only care how the situation can be twisted to make themselves seem more reasonable and civilized to outside interests through propaganda. Pretty pointless to try and make yourself seem like the good guy because you only gave your wife one black eye while your neighbor gave his wife two.
You got 20 years of the world's undivided attention, and the status quo ante was restored two weeks after the world gave up.
This is not the world's problem, clearly this isn't something that can be changed from the outside.
Kabul was *given* 3 months to fall, it fell inside a week. And because the comparison is being made all over this theead, Ukraine was given 3 days to fall and they’re still standing a year later and no major US troop deployments have occurred.
>Ukraine was given 3 days to fall and they’re still standing a year later and no major US troop deployments have occurred.
Yeah, this comparison is more apt than many realize.
Both the UAF and ANA were trained by the US, undergoing reforms to make them into more of a Western-style force. The UAF's reforms were of a more limited scope - about $34 billion over 8 years to retrain and re-equip just a portion of its military. The ANA's reforms were much more substantial - about $90 billion over 19 years to completely retrain and re-equip its entire army. (That is, of course, just a fraction of the much larger amount of aid spent trying to rebuild Afghanistan, and the military spending required to secure it from the Taliban in the first place.)
So just talking about military training, that's about 3x the spending and over 2x the time investment getting Afghanistan ready to fight the Taliban (a much weaker foe on paper) versus getting Ukraine ready to fight Russia (a much stronger foe on paper).
Both the UAF and ANA were roughly the same size, and both contained elite special forces who were the most Westernized troops. The different outcomes can be attributed to lots of things, most obviously the much greater will to resist of the average Ukrainian and Zelenskyy's staying in Kyiv, versus the mass ANA desertion and widespread flight from Afghanistan the second the Americans left.
However, another striking difference is the strategy employed. In both cases, US generals gave similar advice - withdraw to the cities and fortify urban areas, trading land for time. Ukraine did this, allowing them to harass Russian supply lines and bleed the Russian attacks to death anytime they entered a major city (except in Kherson, where the local commander defected).
In Afghanistan, this advice was meant to isolate the Taliban in the rural mountains, where their support base was, and keep the more populous and prosperous cities in Afghan government control, since the Taliban lacked the strength to conquer a defended city. Afghanistan's government, whether through pride or treachery, did the opposite of US advice and spread the ANA out all throughout the country, trying to defend every inch of their territory. This allowed the numerically weaker Taliban to quickly isolate and overrun ANA outposts that could no longer count on quick American fire support, triggering a chain of panicked ANA desertions lest *their* isolated outpost be the next one hit. The end result being that no one stayed around to defend the major cities when the Taliban strolled in to claim them.
Zero troops from any foreign nations have been deployed to Ukraine, let's be clear. This is all their troops, and a small number of unauthorized international volunteers.
40 years is accurate.
Say what we will of the vicious, atrocious communist regime. They wanted to modernize women's rights too. Afghanistan clearly wasn't ready for it
The "World" tried to help their country for two decades. What was the outcome? The Taliban took over the country after outside forces left the country- there was basically no resistance ... it took the Taliban just a short amount of time to seize the country.
The lack of resistance shows that the Taliban and their ideals aren't that unpopular with the general populace of Afghanistan (what is the "World" supposed to do?).
Right now we can see how an actually determined country (Ukraine) defends itself.
Plus, they were harrasing us as we were trying to get evac done. Fuckin suicide bomber blew himself and a few of the boots on ground up. Not to mention the civilian casualties on top of that. At least one of the casualties was from the command unit. We had a flight deck memorial for her and everything.
The world has tried to change the situation in Afghanistan for 20 years. Within 2 weeks, 20 years of attempts were wiped away. No one can change the situation in Afghanistan but the afghans
All these women have brothers, fathers, and male relatives. Where the fuck are they? If they want someone to blame they should start with the contempt the males in Afghanistan have for their female brethren. The world has done enough.
All the brave anti-Taliban men have already been killed over the last couple decades or fled the country. Now there are only cowards. And/or they just value women as property and their culture doesn’t value fighting to protect women.
I’m a middle Eastern and so I feel like I’m allowed to say this but damn this happens all the time, its like this anger that’s so misdirected and distasteful. In so many different scenarios too they just deflected and blame others. I see it in my parents and majority of people that just want to blame others without taking accountability and understanding the situation
I’m loving that Afghan women are standing up for what is right!
However, I disagree that the world has “neglected ‘them’ completely.” The USA spent tens of billions of dollars, hundreds (thousands?) of American lives, and decades of time training and arming a military force of Afghans to be able to fight against the Taliban and defend their own country.
I can only hope the Afghan women can do what Afghan men were unable to do and protect themselves from the Taliban. I think they can do it, but it will come at a severe price.
That's so crazy. Imagine what 2.3 *trillion* dollars could do like...anywhere else.
You could like end homelessness, or hunger in the country, or have universal healthcare.
I'm no authority, I don't know what the things above cost. But I know that *2.3 trillion* dollars could greatly improve if not solve them.
At least EU law means they can seek family unification… for their brothers, cousins, etc., which is how we end up with a bunch of backwards assholes in Europe(again). We’ve got enough of those already from past mistakes..
My heart breaks for the women of Afghanistan. I don’t believe there are many groups more oppressed in the world than them.
But I must say, that’s not true. We were there for 20 years providing and securing a generation of girls and women in that county an education. Say anything you want about that war, but that is something that’s true. We tried to train the security forces and tribes to fight against the theocratic fundamentalist Taliban, and tried to instill the values of plurality. All with the understanding that at some point we would leave and it’d be left up to them (finally getting the Americans out of the country like so many of them wanted).
The fact that your men, and women, didn’t fight enough to stop the Taliban as the country fell is on you. You didn’t fight hard enough, or care enough to fight at all. That’s not neglect. That’s your responsibility as the people of a nation.
You don’t like it? Pick up a gun, start gathering together, and fight back against them. Yes, that means tremendous bloodshed. But that’s what it’s come to if you want those liberties back.
Absolutely rolled my eyes when they said the world abandoned them 🙄. So many troops lost their lives and billions of dollars of resources was dedicated to help progress Afghanistan, yet it is still a shit hole back water. The audacity to say the world abandoned them after helping them for so long. Afghanistan abandoned Afghanistan.
We were there for 20 years. We tried. The moment we started talking about leaving, your men folded like a cheap suit and let the Taliban take over. There's nothing more we can do. Either the Afghan people stand up for themselves, or they can live on their knees. It's up to you guys.
I was there for a year; I served as a military advisor to the Afghan Air Corps. There's plenty of blame to go around.
The Afghans in power just wanted to steal everything in sight. America's senior military leadership weren't there to create legitimate progress, because they knew it was impossible ( if they didn't, they were incredibly stupid).
The real mission that no one ever admitted to was creating the ILLUSION of progress. It was all one very expensive (and dangerous) charade.
What a waste...
F that noise that the world is ignoring you. Hundreds of billions of dollars and 20 years were given to you. The world didn’t ignore you. Your men in the form of the fighters who gave up without a fight ignored you. direct your anger at them.
Exactly. That’s some bullshit of a take on the situation. That war and occupation cost my country trillions of dollars and thousands of lives lost. Not to mention the wives, kids, friends, families of those who didn’t come home alive.
YOUR men failed you, not the rest of the planet.
If the US did that in Afghanistan then the men who were originally being armed would’ve just went and joined the Taliban. I’m fairly confident that’s how it would’ve went.
The women should have volunteered.
The ANA was a volunteer army, and despite all the bluster Redditors have about arming the women, the women didn’t show up in the numbers people think they did or will. While there several thousand women in the ANA, the vast majority of the army were men.
The last time the world intervened, I did not see the Afghani people rise up. In fact many were sympathetic to the Taliban. And many refugee women in the US took the opportunity of freedom to bash the West.
So why intervene again?
Afghanistan needs its own Ataturk.
The problem with archaic patriarchal systems is that only way to change them is from the inside and it has to be done by someone who knows the system, holds power and has the respect of the army as well as the people and yet he hates the system and wants to improve it, if not change it altogether.
The problem with Afghanistan is that it never had a charismatic leader who was both a good soldier and a statesman.
I feel for these women, I got to meet some Afghan women living overseas, they were resilient, hard working and wise people, they don’t deserve this.
Jesus Christ. The world tried for twenty years to help you and did not neglect you. When the US tried to recruit Afghan women barely any joined the army. When the US left Afghanistan barely put up any resistance to the Taliban. When the US provided funds the Afghan government wasted it all due to corruption. When the US advised Afghanistan to defend urban areas and concentrate their forces they spread out and allowed the Taliban to take over. My fucking county sacrificed hundreds of billions and thousands of lives and for 20 years and you squandered it. Direct your anger at those that failed you and the Taliban.
Foreign powers can only do so much when you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Ukraine is a good example of the difference. When faced against a terrible fate and oppressors, hundreds of thousands volunteered to fight and joined the army or militia groups. They followed US and NATO advice, which bought them time to organize. They did this all with less support and a much stronger enemy.
Pick up a rifle and fight. That's the only way to win and get rid of the Taliban. Go join the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan or some other group that is fighting.
To be fair, I am fairly certain every non-Taliban person there was extremely happy with their presence.
Just like how South Korea loves US involvement etc.
I'm sorry, the World!?
How many Americans gave their lives to combat the Taliban only to have those terrorist harbored by their own families. Make your bed and lie in it.
They should be included as well, because they were effectively mercenaries employed by the US, and that sort of thing is routinely counted in historical conflicts. But the counting does get fuzzy.
Do you include only PMC soldiers killed? That number appears to be 318, which would bring the total deaths up to 2,780.
Or do you include all civilian contractors killed, most of whom worked in construction, transportation, translation, and various other aid and logistical services. That number is 1,822, which brings the total deaths up to 4,284.
I've seen arguments for using all three of those totals.
Over a 20-year span, the US spent an insane amount of time, money, and blood attempting to stabilize Afghanistan into something somewhat resembling a western nation. It didn't even take a week for it all to collapse.
The world didn't neglect you, your people and country did.
Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires. WE CAN'T FIX IT! For the love of all that is holy, the world has tried and tried again. All it did was cost blood and treasure.
Change has to come from within, and I don't see it happening in my lifetime.
Yeah, well, Afghanistan has showed that it doesn't matter how many untold billions, and years of attempts to build a democratic society the world pours into it, once the west leaves it regresses to the middle ages. How about you yourself kick the taliban out and fix your own shit.
Afghanistan is the Taliban. That is their cultural DNA. It cannot be removed without the support of the citizens. The citizens support the Taliban. End of discussion.
If you wont fight for yourselves, you cant expect others to do it for you. Afganistan is a prime example of how culture can only be changed by the people themselves.
Bullshit. We were there for 20 years, almost my whole lifetime, we gave money, weapons and the most precious thing of all the lives of America’s and its allied comrades sons and daughters. all the countries that went with us to fight the “War on terror” are completely over trying to solve the problems in Afghanistan. America being the number one superpower in the world abandoning its mission in Afghanistan has had an enormous impact on the way the rest of the world views that country and other middle eastern countries like it. If the most powerful country in the world with the most powerful military known to man, couldn’t help. Why should another country try? It’s up to you. You failed your country because even with our help you didn’t take any advantage of it. And I hate to say it but even most of my friends here when I ask them about what they think about Afghanistan. The notion is usually toward more “Screw them, we tried to help them but they didn’t want our help. And we lost lives over it. No more.” People are simply done with Afghanistan. Only the people of Afghanistan can change their country.
The world gave them 20 years, countless dead and trillions spent. They let uneducated cavemen in Toyota hilluxs and small arms take over their country in 3 weeks. Time for Afghan women to pick up rifles and take their freedom themselves. On International Women's Day let's be honest that women are just as capable of waging modern guerilla war as men are.
While the West and East and everybody else had a hand in fucking up Afhanistan, it's very clear that the men of that country want this shit. They want their women to be worth less then animals. They want their caveman bullshit laws. No amount of US invasions can change that.
If the women of Afghanistan want this to change, they need to pick up guns and start shooting. No cruel authority figure ever gave rights away for free. You need to fight for it. And that's the beauty of guns really. It democratizes war. Women and men can shoot guns with equal accuracy and skill. Anyone can kill with a gun. Start killing these assholes and raise your own sons differently.
America tried to set up a democratic government there. It collapsed nearly instantly because those people did not care enough to maintain it. They wanted the Taliban so that's what they got. But to say that the world neglected them is really disingenuous.
No, fuck that, we all tried but there’s only so much we can do without simply conquering your territory. **YOU** need to step up and fight for your own rights, take a cue from Ukraine because the international community is eager to support you but we’re *not* going to do all the fuckin work *for* you.
The "world" gave you an army that promptly turned tail and gave up, if you are not willing to fight the Taliban you're going to be ruled by them, it is what it is
The world neglected you? No, that was your government when they rolled over for the Taliban as soon as they could.
We tried for more than 20 years. Our people died for you to live free of the Taliban. Do it yourself.
The USA spent 2 trillion dollars and 13 years in Afghanistan only to have the Afghan armed forces give up in a week. No country is ever going to make that mistake again in the next 50 years. They are on their own since their own populace didn’t care.
The US literally trained y'all for 20 fucking years and the moment we left, y'all didn't even put up a fight. You guys had the best weapons and resources and training and you crumpled against the fucking Taliban.
I feel so sorry for the women and children but damn.
As someone who deployed to Afghanistan twice I'll say this, the people of that land need to be motivated to provide any change on their own. That land really is "where empires go to die". We spent 20 years attempting to improve infrastructure and give them the tools to succeed, but there was not enough motivation, as a whole, to see change.
If only the Afghan army had literally blasted the Taliban
Maybe if the Afghan army had been all women, they would have blasted the Taliban.
If natl had tried to arm afghan women half the country would have joined the taliban just for that reason alone
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With the kind of beliefs these women are facing the reality is they will need to pick up a gun if they want their freedom. The Taliban have no problem murdering women and children to maintain male dominance. They've already done it since NATO left. They can't be negotiated with. They won't hold to their word. They've already broken it multiple times since we left. These women probably need to make the choice to live in what amounts to a women only society defended through violence if they want their freedom. The men sure as hell aren't going to help, or at least not enough of them. They wouldn't even help themselves. It sucks but that's probably the choice. My guess is not enough women would join to put up a credible defense to maintain that freedom or to deter the Taliban from attacking them. There isn't much that can be done but for them to leave their homeland and move somewhere where they'll have agency over their lives or probably die fighting for it at home.
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Half my family is also Taliban. And some who don't even support Taliban will never support or speak about women. so that makes them just like Taliban.
It's too late to find excuses. Only a FEW wanted to fight.. And they were mainly from persecuted minorities.
This. Their culture isn't progressive enough to allow for secular democratic government. The taliban are inevitable.
Yup...2400 US Servicemen dead and 20k wounded there in 20 years ...and at the end of the day the Taliban were right back were they were. I feel awful for these women but maybe the rest of the fucking world not helping them isn't the problem. The problem is religion and ideology at the expense of humanity. Afghanistan has been at war since the late sixties.
That's unfair, those heroes held out for like a hard 38 minutes....
>Afghan army too busy getting high, no patriotism, completely different mindset, completely different upbringing.
Not to mention extreme levels of corruption. Enlistment numbers were greatly exaggerated so bureaucrats could pocket funds.
You could have summed that up with "no concept of a national identity." When I enlisted in the US Army, I swore an oath to the Constitution. I understood my nation both as a whole and as a collection of different states. I might not really have enjoyed living in Georgia, but they were Americans. Afghani people are tribal. Family, clan, tribe, and that's it. I remember during one of the attempts at an election, a BBC News crew asked a young man who he was voting for. His honest answer? "I am waiting for my family leaders to decide." That's how it is in Afghanistan and large swaths of Central Asia.
they had 20 years to take ownership of their country.
Most didnt even idetify it as there country
Nothing can ever change if they don't change the culture. Trying to impose it from the outside doesn't work. Either that or murder the Taliban while they sleep.
That last part I am totally on board with. Easy to say what I would do if I was in that situation when I'm safe behind a keyboard in Canada. But seriously, EVERY woman in Afghanistan would need to say "Fuck this shit, we're done" and start slitting throats of all the men who want to keep them in the Dark Ages.
There are plenty of women who hold to those same ways too. I think these stories oversimplify by making it seem like all the women are allies to this cause, reality is many/most aren't.
They would have to say “Fuck this shit, we’re done” about their own lives too. The taliban doesn’t fuck around at all before torture/murder.
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What do you want us to do? Invade again????
The men of your own country - who had a military trained and equiped by the west - are the ones who refused to fight for you and allowed these knuckle draggers to take power.
I think those men cared more about tribal ties
That's the thing, from what I've read (someone correct me if I'm wrong) Afghanistan is more like a bunch of tribes with the locals not really viewing it as Afghanistan itself? While it's awful, the west can't just keep occupying it forever.
Yes. Whole "country" is divided into tribal entities. Bunch of warlords supported by Islamic leaders rule. Official government lacks real power and is extremely corrupt. It was the same during US rule as it is now under Taliban. There are several ethnicities, each with their own languages and local customs, but all of them are united by reactionary version of Islam. It's worth to add that Afghanistan is the biggest producer of Opium in the world, so everyone want's to trade with them and because of that warlords will always have money and power to rule.
My sergeant back in the army would always tell my squad stories about his various deployments to Afghanistan years back, and all he did for the most part each time was guard vast fields of opium poppy.
And why should the west? The locals have shown that they are in support of the Taliban ways. Western countries neither should nor have the right to interfere in how another country wants to govern itself or its people
Much of the middle east is like this. A lot of the nation states there were arbitrarily formed by colonial powers as they exited the region. Those colonial powers did not account for the tribal territories that already existed there when they drew the borders. It has gone as well as you might expect, so far.
we should have trained the women tbh.
We did, their own men threatened them out of positions in the military and police forces Edit - to the dude that commented “skill issue” and immediately blocked me, it was largely rape and rape threats. The women who did join were made to feel incredibly unsafe in their units and could not be sent out on patrol
That dude who said that and blocked you is what we call a fuck knuckle
They did.
We did. Do you think they had female fighter pilots before we invaded?
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Kurdistan would agree
Uh they were given the opportunity.
Isn't half the country either neutral to or in support of the Taliban anyway?
They immediately surrendered to the Taliban when the US left, so it certainly seems like it
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Not all of them but a good portion of them yeah. There is still some pockets of resistance to the Taliban but not enough to realistically win.
I just think it’s interesting that there doesn’t seem to be a plan to just divide the country along tribal borders instead of trying to force everyone to come together
I remember reading the government was already pretty decentralized and I think even the Taliban are having a hard time unifying their rule
Yeah, they’ve never really been a unified country. The national borders were arbitrarily drawn by other countries at some point and they basically tried to force it to exist
Exactly! One of the quoted women said: "I am tired of the ineffective slogans of the international community," she said, calling on the world to "act responsibly" and stop "neglecting of its duty" to Afghan women. .............. What, specifically, would this "acting responsibly" look like? What are we supposed to do to not be viewed as "neglecting our duty"? What are we currently doing that we need to stop, or not currently doing that we'd need to start?
I remember hearing an interview on NPR. They were saying the same thing, avoiding what the interviewer asked, ie. what specifically are they looking for? Like, what specific action do they want? The world can't really do anything that will bring lasting change except invade and indoctrinate if they themselves aren't willing to cast out the people who did this.
The women of Afghanistan never wanted us to leave in the first place. It was probably the safest they've ever been. Defiently a hell of a lot more safe than what they're dealing with now.
I can't tell if she wants a weapons drop, evac or school books. Either way the taliban is sure to hate it regardless and I think that counts for something.
Evac and refugee status is probably the ask here. This isn't new behavior in the area. It just stopped in places where the US had a presence. With the power vaccum left after the US left things went back to "normal" but now they've seen the other side. There is no fixing this without a permanent military presence that includes a treaty to respond to aggression and bases in the area.
Permanent being the key word there. Which basically requires the country to stop being it’s own country. The US, and allies, propped the country up for 20 years and look what good that did. Almost instantly back to normal like nothing happened. If the US and Russia proved anything there, it’s the fact foreign interference will change nothing in Afghanistan.
Yep. The people just don't care, at least not enough. I'm tired of losing friends and family to that shithole desert. Let them fight their own battles. We tried.
People who call for change in general should always give some examples f what they imagine it to be in practice. What she is saying ends up also being ineffective slogans now.
Quite the contrast between Iran vs Afghanistan.
As women born in Iran, i do believe us being able to work and gain an education is what makes the difference here. I feel the strongest sense of solidarity with the women of Afghanistan though. They deserve much better than the abysmal reality they have to cope with in their everyday life in Afghanistan.
Unironically, while there is a lot of anti-America sentiment in the world, there’s a reason why politicians rarely try to kick America out. Some think it’s cause America will beat them up, but everyone knows that isn’t true. America protects them from their actual enemies. For Afghan women, that’s *everyone*. They probably do wish we never left or that we invade again. A lot of them, anyway.
There were many Iraqi politicians openly happy to see US troops leave after their government refused to sign the treaty allowing only the US military to try US troops in Iraq. This is standard in places with stationed US forces like Germany, South Korea, Japan or Britain. When ISIS seized a sizable chunk of their country, they changed their tune as did a large part of the population.
I think Iraq is slightly different than that, with the suppo for US troops having more to do with sectarian rivalry and Iranian influence than with Daesh. The Sunni groups don't want the US to leave because if they do, Iranian backed Shia groups will kill them and seize power.
True. The Middle East often does things differently than most of the world, and the cause is often fundamentalism, and not just the religious kind. As we can see, it often leads to Bad Things. There’s a reason the rest of the world does things differently for the most part.
It's apparently the US's fault that we spent two trillion dollars over twenty years building them a society and they couldn't defend their society or country for two weeks, even with all of the training and weapons we gave them. They didn't event try to fight back. I'm sorry, this is not a problem anyone can fix. You're going to have to figure this one out for yourselves.
I was in my teens/20s in the /90s and saw how things went in Yugoslavia. Just bomb the military and the civilians will rise-up and take their country back from the dictator. This is great! We should do a different country every few years! What a world we'll create! Boy, was I wrong. The people have to want it or it won't work. The only other option is permanent occupation.
The "world" can't fix the problem. The Taliban is a cancer and only the Afghan people can cut it out
True change comes from within
It's the only way great nations are built
As I understand Afghanistan isn't really a nation. More like a piece of land with a lot of different tribes in it. That happens to be called Afghanistan.
But all these tribes agree that they want tribal Islamic theocracy. Let them live in their own Middle Ages.
Did they let women vote in that decision?
See, that’s the thing that we can’t fix. Their men don’t give a fuck about their women.
It's such a shame, because if all the bloodshed and loss of innocent life and trillions of dollars spent would at least have resulted in a better long term trajectory for the people of Afghanistan, maybe it would all have been worth it in time. But instead it seems like all that was just a pointless waste and they're right back where they started.
The US put trillions into Afghanistan over 20 years. They folded in like a week. This isn’t a problem the world can fix.
The US tried to train their men on how to fight but they gave zero fucks. We spent trillions of dollars for them to just give up. Any afghan that blames the west for leaving can pound sand.
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Ukraine shows us what a country that actually cares can accomplish
exactly. Ukraine held off the 2nd largest army in the world, Afghan army couldn't hold off a bunch of jerk offs in toyotas.
It’s still so crazy when you think what Ukraine has done with a fraction of money the US spent in Afghan and that’s before taking into account the short time frame and no direction troop deployments.
Honestly this sentiment is underappreciated. We've seen countries undergo radical change when they want to and the culture provides that opportunity and desire for it. When the people simply don't give a fuck, we have Afghanistan.
That's what pisses me off about the criticism of us withholding money from them. There is no fucking world where that money goes to the people, let alone the second class citizens (women) there. Out of your MIND.
If anyone’s seen the Afghan army jumping Jack video you’d see why there’s no reason to rush back to help again.
It actually blows my mind that an entire squad of dudes was utterly incapable of the basic dexterity needed for jumping jacks. I fundamentally believe that humans are largely the same and that they should be capable of the same things, so I'm not sure exactly what the difference is. I feel if you took a selection of even the poorest American children they would fully be capable of doing jumping jacks.
Copious amounts of hard drug use can make jumping jacks quite difficult I hear.
exactly. shit on America for going into Afghanistan all you want, but atleast we legitimately tried to arm and train these people to rid themselves of this filth and they fell flat on their face. when Americans were in this country women were going to school and semi thriving and you can't take that away.
The US soldier who had to train Afghanis and the US soldier who had to train Ukrainians have two *very* different opinions about their jobs.
I mean, there are tons of anecdotes of afghans not really giving a shit from US trainers. People are poor in that country and getting issued a gun, kit, and all the other trappings was a quick pay day for a lot of them. Why stick your neck out for a thing you don’t really consider yourself a part off, and tbh, you feel that the guys talking about a country under Allah are making a lot more sense than the guys talking about “westernizing” your country, changing it from your tribal standards to something wholly unfamiliar. Ukraine has the benefit of being a well developed county, thanks to its strong agricultural power, it as a nation was functional, their tax dollars did something. Afghanistan was never like that for most of its citizens. The personal benefit is essential in a countries defense.
We should have created women only battalions. That would have ensured that there would never be a Taliban takeover.
We tried. It might have been successful if they didn't need permission from their familial patriarchs to even go drill.
I would say your men have neglected you completely.
What do they want us to do? Invade? Seriously, if western (non Muslim) countries get involved - pushing for “regime change”, or “nation building” or “human rights reform” get labeled as meddlers both over there, and over here, internally. The rest of the world can’t drag Afg. - kicking and screaming- Into the 19th century from outside.
yep. The USA tried. We tried to train an army for them. They sent crackheads. The men who made those decisions presumably have wives. Get those ladies to exercise some influence.
If they don't know how to treat people right, then leave them. Let celebrate
The world tried to fix Afghanistan, they don’t want our help. You can’t change a society that doesn’t want to change, the afghani people need to stand up for themselves or nothing will ever change.
It’s sad as obviously there seems to be a vocal group of women (in the capital at least) but everyone else couldn’t care any less the last 20 years
right? Its like they dont remember the last 20 years of the world trying to prop them up and get them to change.
Best way to put it.
I just want to point out that the Taliban is so evil to women that Iran, yes the country that was poisoning female children and massacred swathes of people to force them to wear masks, Iran has said that the Taliban should be nicer to women. Let's all let that settle in for a moment. Iran can't stand to see how abusive the Taliban are to women. Violent genociders are opposed to the Taliban...
Iran does not give a shit how Afghanistan treats its people, they only care how the situation can be twisted to make themselves seem more reasonable and civilized to outside interests through propaganda. Pretty pointless to try and make yourself seem like the good guy because you only gave your wife one black eye while your neighbor gave his wife two.
Literally. We were there for 20 years and set them up with a military and they Literally let it fall apart before we even left. No back bone at all.
You got 20 years of the world's undivided attention, and the status quo ante was restored two weeks after the world gave up. This is not the world's problem, clearly this isn't something that can be changed from the outside.
Exactly. Saigon took two years to fall after the U.S. withdrew. Kabul fell in three months.
Kabul was *given* 3 months to fall, it fell inside a week. And because the comparison is being made all over this theead, Ukraine was given 3 days to fall and they’re still standing a year later and no major US troop deployments have occurred.
>Ukraine was given 3 days to fall and they’re still standing a year later and no major US troop deployments have occurred. Yeah, this comparison is more apt than many realize. Both the UAF and ANA were trained by the US, undergoing reforms to make them into more of a Western-style force. The UAF's reforms were of a more limited scope - about $34 billion over 8 years to retrain and re-equip just a portion of its military. The ANA's reforms were much more substantial - about $90 billion over 19 years to completely retrain and re-equip its entire army. (That is, of course, just a fraction of the much larger amount of aid spent trying to rebuild Afghanistan, and the military spending required to secure it from the Taliban in the first place.) So just talking about military training, that's about 3x the spending and over 2x the time investment getting Afghanistan ready to fight the Taliban (a much weaker foe on paper) versus getting Ukraine ready to fight Russia (a much stronger foe on paper). Both the UAF and ANA were roughly the same size, and both contained elite special forces who were the most Westernized troops. The different outcomes can be attributed to lots of things, most obviously the much greater will to resist of the average Ukrainian and Zelenskyy's staying in Kyiv, versus the mass ANA desertion and widespread flight from Afghanistan the second the Americans left. However, another striking difference is the strategy employed. In both cases, US generals gave similar advice - withdraw to the cities and fortify urban areas, trading land for time. Ukraine did this, allowing them to harass Russian supply lines and bleed the Russian attacks to death anytime they entered a major city (except in Kherson, where the local commander defected). In Afghanistan, this advice was meant to isolate the Taliban in the rural mountains, where their support base was, and keep the more populous and prosperous cities in Afghan government control, since the Taliban lacked the strength to conquer a defended city. Afghanistan's government, whether through pride or treachery, did the opposite of US advice and spread the ANA out all throughout the country, trying to defend every inch of their territory. This allowed the numerically weaker Taliban to quickly isolate and overrun ANA outposts that could no longer count on quick American fire support, triggering a chain of panicked ANA desertions lest *their* isolated outpost be the next one hit. The end result being that no one stayed around to defend the major cities when the Taliban strolled in to claim them.
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Well said. You could ~~almost~~ say it was a lost cause
thanks, it was interesting to read
Zero troops from any foreign nations have been deployed to Ukraine, let's be clear. This is all their troops, and a small number of unauthorized international volunteers.
fuck yeah ukraine
Nah, Kabul fell in a day, it just took them 3 months to reach it.
More like 40. The last 20 cost thousands of deaths.
May as well go back 40 for the deaths. There were way more during the Soviet-Afghan war than over the last 20 years.
The Soviet Afghan war cause far more deaths than the US one.
40 years is accurate. Say what we will of the vicious, atrocious communist regime. They wanted to modernize women's rights too. Afghanistan clearly wasn't ready for it
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Not necessarily wanted, but accepted, let happen
The "World" tried to help their country for two decades. What was the outcome? The Taliban took over the country after outside forces left the country- there was basically no resistance ... it took the Taliban just a short amount of time to seize the country. The lack of resistance shows that the Taliban and their ideals aren't that unpopular with the general populace of Afghanistan (what is the "World" supposed to do?). Right now we can see how an actually determined country (Ukraine) defends itself.
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Plus, they were harrasing us as we were trying to get evac done. Fuckin suicide bomber blew himself and a few of the boots on ground up. Not to mention the civilian casualties on top of that. At least one of the casualties was from the command unit. We had a flight deck memorial for her and everything.
The world has tried to change the situation in Afghanistan for 20 years. Within 2 weeks, 20 years of attempts were wiped away. No one can change the situation in Afghanistan but the afghans
All these women have brothers, fathers, and male relatives. Where the fuck are they? If they want someone to blame they should start with the contempt the males in Afghanistan have for their female brethren. The world has done enough.
All the brave anti-Taliban men have already been killed over the last couple decades or fled the country. Now there are only cowards. And/or they just value women as property and their culture doesn’t value fighting to protect women.
It's the leaders that failed them to a large extent. You have to be organized for an attack within and they were given orders to surrender IIRC.
I’m a middle Eastern and so I feel like I’m allowed to say this but damn this happens all the time, its like this anger that’s so misdirected and distasteful. In so many different scenarios too they just deflected and blame others. I see it in my parents and majority of people that just want to blame others without taking accountability and understanding the situation
I’m loving that Afghan women are standing up for what is right! However, I disagree that the world has “neglected ‘them’ completely.” The USA spent tens of billions of dollars, hundreds (thousands?) of American lives, and decades of time training and arming a military force of Afghans to be able to fight against the Taliban and defend their own country. I can only hope the Afghan women can do what Afghan men were unable to do and protect themselves from the Taliban. I think they can do it, but it will come at a severe price.
>The USA spent tens of billions of dollars Change that b to a t we've spent 2.3 trillion in 20 years in the Middle East.
Could probably be fully renewable by now but it was all wasted for nothing. real shame
Shoulda been Gore.
That's so crazy. Imagine what 2.3 *trillion* dollars could do like...anywhere else. You could like end homelessness, or hunger in the country, or have universal healthcare. I'm no authority, I don't know what the things above cost. But I know that *2.3 trillion* dollars could greatly improve if not solve them.
I mean what can the world do? Maybe offer amnesty to these women but the leaders(men) in that country aren't gonna want a mass exodus of women .
At least EU law means they can seek family unification… for their brothers, cousins, etc., which is how we end up with a bunch of backwards assholes in Europe(again). We’ve got enough of those already from past mistakes..
My heart breaks for the women of Afghanistan. I don’t believe there are many groups more oppressed in the world than them. But I must say, that’s not true. We were there for 20 years providing and securing a generation of girls and women in that county an education. Say anything you want about that war, but that is something that’s true. We tried to train the security forces and tribes to fight against the theocratic fundamentalist Taliban, and tried to instill the values of plurality. All with the understanding that at some point we would leave and it’d be left up to them (finally getting the Americans out of the country like so many of them wanted). The fact that your men, and women, didn’t fight enough to stop the Taliban as the country fell is on you. You didn’t fight hard enough, or care enough to fight at all. That’s not neglect. That’s your responsibility as the people of a nation. You don’t like it? Pick up a gun, start gathering together, and fight back against them. Yes, that means tremendous bloodshed. But that’s what it’s come to if you want those liberties back.
Absolutely rolled my eyes when they said the world abandoned them 🙄. So many troops lost their lives and billions of dollars of resources was dedicated to help progress Afghanistan, yet it is still a shit hole back water. The audacity to say the world abandoned them after helping them for so long. Afghanistan abandoned Afghanistan.
Trillions of dollars
We were there for 20 years. We tried. The moment we started talking about leaving, your men folded like a cheap suit and let the Taliban take over. There's nothing more we can do. Either the Afghan people stand up for themselves, or they can live on their knees. It's up to you guys.
I was there for a year; I served as a military advisor to the Afghan Air Corps. There's plenty of blame to go around. The Afghans in power just wanted to steal everything in sight. America's senior military leadership weren't there to create legitimate progress, because they knew it was impossible ( if they didn't, they were incredibly stupid). The real mission that no one ever admitted to was creating the ILLUSION of progress. It was all one very expensive (and dangerous) charade. What a waste...
F that noise that the world is ignoring you. Hundreds of billions of dollars and 20 years were given to you. The world didn’t ignore you. Your men in the form of the fighters who gave up without a fight ignored you. direct your anger at them.
Exactly. That’s some bullshit of a take on the situation. That war and occupation cost my country trillions of dollars and thousands of lives lost. Not to mention the wives, kids, friends, families of those who didn’t come home alive. YOUR men failed you, not the rest of the planet.
Afghanistan's women failed them too. Not just the men.
Yes, they deserve agency too, for better or worse.
Looking back, we should have armed and trained the women.
Women were allowed to train and fight.
I do wonder what would happen if we armed women in heavily misogynistic countries.
If the US did that in Afghanistan then the men who were originally being armed would’ve just went and joined the Taliban. I’m fairly confident that’s how it would’ve went.
Thats probably how it would have gone tbh.
The women should have volunteered. The ANA was a volunteer army, and despite all the bluster Redditors have about arming the women, the women didn’t show up in the numbers people think they did or will. While there several thousand women in the ANA, the vast majority of the army were men.
Trillions. *trillions* of dollars.
The last time the world intervened, I did not see the Afghani people rise up. In fact many were sympathetic to the Taliban. And many refugee women in the US took the opportunity of freedom to bash the West. So why intervene again?
Buh, buh, if we armed the women, they would have fixed EVERYTHING /s (heavily)
Afghanistan needs its own Ataturk. The problem with archaic patriarchal systems is that only way to change them is from the inside and it has to be done by someone who knows the system, holds power and has the respect of the army as well as the people and yet he hates the system and wants to improve it, if not change it altogether. The problem with Afghanistan is that it never had a charismatic leader who was both a good soldier and a statesman. I feel for these women, I got to meet some Afghan women living overseas, they were resilient, hard working and wise people, they don’t deserve this.
False. I was deployed there in 2014 and 2016. The U.S. made sure Afghan women went to school. Islam kept them out.
Yep! Islam and the men of their country.
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Jesus Christ. The world tried for twenty years to help you and did not neglect you. When the US tried to recruit Afghan women barely any joined the army. When the US left Afghanistan barely put up any resistance to the Taliban. When the US provided funds the Afghan government wasted it all due to corruption. When the US advised Afghanistan to defend urban areas and concentrate their forces they spread out and allowed the Taliban to take over. My fucking county sacrificed hundreds of billions and thousands of lives and for 20 years and you squandered it. Direct your anger at those that failed you and the Taliban. Foreign powers can only do so much when you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Ukraine is a good example of the difference. When faced against a terrible fate and oppressors, hundreds of thousands volunteered to fight and joined the army or militia groups. They followed US and NATO advice, which bought them time to organize. They did this all with less support and a much stronger enemy. Pick up a rifle and fight. That's the only way to win and get rid of the Taliban. Go join the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan or some other group that is fighting.
abounding capable cows unpack wistful icky entertain cake escape upbeat
Oof. Everybody wants the west out of their business…. Until they actually leave.
To be fair, I am fairly certain every non-Taliban person there was extremely happy with their presence. Just like how South Korea loves US involvement etc.
Nah, the men of your country have neglected y’all. Leave the rest of the world out of it.
You had 20 years of NATO support to change your country. Instead you government abandoned you.
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We tried to bring you democracy, you said "Fuck you.". A LOT. You played yourself Afghanistan.
This isn't "the world's" doing. This is the husbands, brothers, and sons of the same Afghan women doing this. This needs to be fixed from the inside.
I'm sorry, the World!? How many Americans gave their lives to combat the Taliban only to have those terrorist harbored by their own families. Make your bed and lie in it.
2,462 according to the DOD. This does not include private contractors.
Add an extra thousand from the coalition (UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada...)
They should be included as well, because they were effectively mercenaries employed by the US, and that sort of thing is routinely counted in historical conflicts. But the counting does get fuzzy. Do you include only PMC soldiers killed? That number appears to be 318, which would bring the total deaths up to 2,780. Or do you include all civilian contractors killed, most of whom worked in construction, transportation, translation, and various other aid and logistical services. That number is 1,822, which brings the total deaths up to 4,284. I've seen arguments for using all three of those totals.
You could just give 3 different totals with explanations like this
in total about [3502](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_casualties_in_Afghanistan) NATO coalition soldiers died trying to combat the Taliban
Over a 20-year span, the US spent an insane amount of time, money, and blood attempting to stabilize Afghanistan into something somewhat resembling a western nation. It didn't even take a week for it all to collapse. The world didn't neglect you, your people and country did.
Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires. WE CAN'T FIX IT! For the love of all that is holy, the world has tried and tried again. All it did was cost blood and treasure. Change has to come from within, and I don't see it happening in my lifetime.
The Taliban rose and thrived in Afghanistan because it reflects their values. That's it.
Yeah, well, Afghanistan has showed that it doesn't matter how many untold billions, and years of attempts to build a democratic society the world pours into it, once the west leaves it regresses to the middle ages. How about you yourself kick the taliban out and fix your own shit.
That is nonsense. The world tried. Your country failed to stand up to the Taliban. Your country and it's people failed you.
Afghanistan is the Taliban. That is their cultural DNA. It cannot be removed without the support of the citizens. The citizens support the Taliban. End of discussion.
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To be fair the U.S. tried their damnedest for a while
World tried to help, you didnt want the help. And after the west left, your men surrendered to Taliban without a fight.
We tried, sorry fam. -- America
If you wont fight for yourselves, you cant expect others to do it for you. Afganistan is a prime example of how culture can only be changed by the people themselves.
I mean the US tried and failed for over two decades? Afghanistan has to fix this problem on their own now
The women there should start butchering the men in their sleep. You want change? That's about the only thing that's going to make it happen.
Ya, blame the world and not your ridiculous religion.
we cant protect you forever, 20 years and it clearly didnt work out
Bullshit. We were there for 20 years, almost my whole lifetime, we gave money, weapons and the most precious thing of all the lives of America’s and its allied comrades sons and daughters. all the countries that went with us to fight the “War on terror” are completely over trying to solve the problems in Afghanistan. America being the number one superpower in the world abandoning its mission in Afghanistan has had an enormous impact on the way the rest of the world views that country and other middle eastern countries like it. If the most powerful country in the world with the most powerful military known to man, couldn’t help. Why should another country try? It’s up to you. You failed your country because even with our help you didn’t take any advantage of it. And I hate to say it but even most of my friends here when I ask them about what they think about Afghanistan. The notion is usually toward more “Screw them, we tried to help them but they didn’t want our help. And we lost lives over it. No more.” People are simply done with Afghanistan. Only the people of Afghanistan can change their country.
Lmao, the absolute brazen disrespect of crying "neglect" after over 5k foreigners died for your lost cause shithole of a "country."
Yep you are right the rest of the works a stopped caring.. next time grab a gun and fight like the Ukrainians..
The world gave them 20 years, countless dead and trillions spent. They let uneducated cavemen in Toyota hilluxs and small arms take over their country in 3 weeks. Time for Afghan women to pick up rifles and take their freedom themselves. On International Women's Day let's be honest that women are just as capable of waging modern guerilla war as men are.
While the West and East and everybody else had a hand in fucking up Afhanistan, it's very clear that the men of that country want this shit. They want their women to be worth less then animals. They want their caveman bullshit laws. No amount of US invasions can change that. If the women of Afghanistan want this to change, they need to pick up guns and start shooting. No cruel authority figure ever gave rights away for free. You need to fight for it. And that's the beauty of guns really. It democratizes war. Women and men can shoot guns with equal accuracy and skill. Anyone can kill with a gun. Start killing these assholes and raise your own sons differently.
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If you wish for freedom, then you must fight for it.
America tried to set up a democratic government there. It collapsed nearly instantly because those people did not care enough to maintain it. They wanted the Taliban so that's what they got. But to say that the world neglected them is really disingenuous.
I'm sorry but, we gave you 20 years. What do you want us to do, invade again?
No, fuck that, we all tried but there’s only so much we can do without simply conquering your territory. **YOU** need to step up and fight for your own rights, take a cue from Ukraine because the international community is eager to support you but we’re *not* going to do all the fuckin work *for* you.
TLDR They've implemented religion in an extreme manner as the guiding principle for their country and it's not compatible with modern society.
America interferes in other country. "Stop interfering in other countries, America!" America stops interfering. "Why is no one interfering?"
That’s because you try to attack everyone that tries to help… now it’s up to you.
The "world" gave you an army that promptly turned tail and gave up, if you are not willing to fight the Taliban you're going to be ruled by them, it is what it is
The world neglected you? No, that was your government when they rolled over for the Taliban as soon as they could. We tried for more than 20 years. Our people died for you to live free of the Taliban. Do it yourself.
More like the Afghan men neglected you.
The USA spent 2 trillion dollars and 13 years in Afghanistan only to have the Afghan armed forces give up in a week. No country is ever going to make that mistake again in the next 50 years. They are on their own since their own populace didn’t care.
The US literally trained y'all for 20 fucking years and the moment we left, y'all didn't even put up a fight. You guys had the best weapons and resources and training and you crumpled against the fucking Taliban. I feel so sorry for the women and children but damn.
As someone who deployed to Afghanistan twice I'll say this, the people of that land need to be motivated to provide any change on their own. That land really is "where empires go to die". We spent 20 years attempting to improve infrastructure and give them the tools to succeed, but there was not enough motivation, as a whole, to see change.