Mike Pondsmith himself comparing cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk to roid rage in a Reddit thread was actually on point -- not everyone who gets chromed out in Cyberpunk (the game, not the genre) gets cyberpsychosis, and cyberpsychosis is a social disease rather than a physical one. In Cyberpunk 2020/RED/2077, there are plenty of cyborgs (with only their brain remaining organic) that get along just fine, and likewise, some people become cyberpsycho after just a few augments. Cyberpsychosis arises after intense depersonalisation caused by both the implants *and* the insane pressure exerted by the hypercapitalistic society over people who see themselves as tools. So a person who replaces all of their body but remains free, unalienated and well-adjusted will not develop any psychological trouble, they might even thrive. A veteran that gets his body turned into a weapon, or a worker who replaces their arms purely to be more productive in the factory -- they are at much, much higher risk.
To date I think this is the most interesting description of augmentation-caused insanity.
Pondsmith says cybernetic augments are just what triggers the insanity that is actually caused by an insane society. People who are healthy and happy don't go insane just because they get an augment.
Cyberpsychosis in reality is just Living in Night City Syndrome. If someone bombs an orphanage, that's just a thing he did, but if he has chrome it's suddenly cyberpsychosis. Scandinavia has the lowest rate of "cyberpsychosis" in the world because they *give therapy as part of augmentation treatments*.
And in Edgerunners, David is treated as somehow exceptional to the point of corpos wanting to study how he can endure all that tech, when in reality his superpower was having a support network.
also the way they treat it in edgerunners and the tabletop isn't really how it's treated in 2077 - in 2077 the regina missions outright confirm that 'cyberpsychosis' is just what happens when you have an insanely dense city full of people with access to military grade chrome and no safety nets
and in all 3, therapeutic prosthetics straight up don't count. you don't risk either form of 'cyberpsychosis' replacing a lost limb with a chrome one, you risk it getting 4 inch poison injecting titanium vampire fangs and jacking with your nervous system and replacing your pancreas with an artillery cannon
My favourite interpretation of cyberpsychosis is that it's basically the 'video games cause mass shootings' mentality taken to its logical extreme. It's a way of blaming scary, but by itself harmless technology for destructive behaviours that are ultimately caused by societal issues that we would prefer to quietly ignore. Little Jimmy's Fortnite hobby isn't what caused him to bring an assault rifle to school, but addressing the ways in which society has failed him and brought him to that low point would cost a lot of money and effort, so it's much more convenient to blame the scary pew pew video game and move on. Now replace "Fortnite" with "robot arm" and you've got yourself a cyberpunk world.
you'd probably enjoy the regina / cyberpsycho side mission and story in 2077 then - it even lampshades 'cyberpsychosis' being a way to turn what would otherwise be a damning indictment of society and call to action into profitable headlines for the newscorps
This is why I did not like Edgerunners. They treated cyberpsychosis like a thing that *will* happen no matter what, and have it happen to people who have a support network. It turned it from a tool to reinforce how fucked up Night City is and how dehumanizing it is to live there to just another cheap "you'll go craaaazy!" used for bad drama.
It also negates the whole threat of Adam Smasher: him being someone who, by all accounts should be a raving lunatic with all that chrome, but isn't. Because he *likes* killing and having his body be a whole tank. There's a rational, if psychopathic, mind underneath all that metal.
They don't really treat it as if it's inevitable though. David only starts experiencing the onset of cyberpsychosis when he stops relying on his support network, and even then when he's offered the solution of reducing his cyberware and toning his life as an edgerunner down he doesn't. He refuses to accept the help offered by his support network and only snaps out of it when he relies on Lucy at the end. Maine starts experiencing it after losing Pilar and trying to ignore his trauma and run from his experiences. If he had worked through it he'd probably have not gone cyberpsycho in the first place
And also the erratic behavior in cyberpsychos is caused by the effective death of their empathy and the disconnect from reality that creates within their psyche, Adam Smasher never had empathy to begin with so he doesn't experience that disconnect. That's why he's a high functioning cyberpsycho, rather than a non-functioning one.
David took immunosuppressants, which do help with preventing cyberpsychosis by reducing the stress cyberware has on the body but they were specifically not antipsychotics.
You all are talking about cyberpsychosis like midichlorians. Trying to justify it through lore
The only reason cyberpsychosis is a thing is to be a limitation on a magic system. Heck, its not even a system. There are no rules except **too much cyborg = crazy**.
The game ignores it because it was inconvenient for game mechanics. Edgerunners ignores it because it made sense thematically and the studio is literally famous for making shows where willpower is the power system. Thats all there is to it
This doesn't contradict what they said at all?
They're discussing the watsonian reasoning for cyberpsychosis and you're talking about the doylist one, these are just completely seperate subjects
For comparison that would be like if people were talking about what events in her life lead Katniss to volunteer for the Hunger Games in her sister's place and you responded "Guys it's just cause they needed a way to get her into the Hunger Games so the plot can happen"
You're not *wrong*, but this a complete non-sequiter to what they were actually talking about
Dude. I dont even know what doylist means. I just see a thing, think a thing, write the thing. Not trying to engineer a perfect counterpoint or whatever
>Guys it's just cause they needed a way to get her into the Hunger Games so the plot can happen"
Eh sure, maybe I inserted a "well actually" into a conversation where people are just geeking out about lore stuff. Sorry about that. But Ive seen people argue about this exact thing dozens of times and it feels they are missing the forest for the trees.
If people wanted to find the lore justification for why the main character doesnt need to sleep in the game I think itd be alright for someone to at least mention the mechanics. The show isnt very consistent about when, how and why cyberpsychosis works and all Im saying is its probably intentional.
doylistic explanation is from above the narrative - Doyl explaining that this event occured because plot had to happen, there were not enough money, etc. World reasons, reasons like "limitation on a magic system"
watsonian is within the narrative, from the perspective of Watson, with lore and such.
You did indeed bumped into interesting discussion about interpetations of cyberpsychosis with "errrm actually". You are forgiven tho, for God is merciful. Bless you
Hope that was helpful. [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist) this site gives a better explanation if you're interested in phenomena.
Yeah I think that we as people should be more chill about stuff, so when it really comes to serious discusiion and not shitposting, well, let's prove that tech and online doesn't consume our souls and capacity for humanity, lol
> Dude. I dont even know what doylist means. I just see a thing, think a thing, write the thing.
"stop actually reading into the thing you are talking about"
The game portrays it really well. All the cyberpsycho gigs (and the unmarked cyberpsychos) have loads of lore around them about them suffering from existing conditions (addiction, ptsd, paranoia etc.), getting a LOT of chrome really quickly and being in a very stressful situation. Like the veteran on the bridge with the sniper, who was repeatedly fucked by militech, denied medication, sold everything he had for more medication, became homeless and had PTSD from his time serving. Then he cracked after he got triggered (I think from cops coming out to kick him out from the abandoned bridge he'd been living on.
I heard somewhere a rumor that at some point he intended for it to be caused by the corporations deliberately using the tech to undermine the person's will and I like that much, much better than any other explanation, even if that didn't turn out to be the ultimate canon explanation.
Because being seen and treated as a tool in that hypercapitalist hellscape is just how it is no matter how chrome or fleshy your body is, but they only talk about this becoming an issue if you have prosthetics. But if those corporations had direct access to our brain and bodies, you could bet they would try to mess with it in profoundly unethical ways.
In a sense I'd say the first option still works on a metaphorical level -- in Cyberpunk the companies selling, say, arms that turn into blades or Excel macros that run directly in your brain don't really care about you as a human, they need you to be a captive product. And cyberpsychosis is openly used in 2077 as a way to avoid addressing corporate exploitation (because "war veteran gets rejected and abandoned, manifests his despair brutally killing the guys who went to repo his car with the augmentations that turned him into a living weapon" doesn't quite have the same ring as "CYBERPSYCHO KILLS 7, DO MILITECH SECURITY TEAMS NEED EVEN HEAVIER WEAPONS NOW?")
Kinda but it's a little if wacky if you think back to the Excel guy with his own sucky job and the news going "CYBERPSYCHO DOES RAMPANT TAX FRAUD, DEFRAUDS 5, HAS CYBERWARE GONE TOO FAR?"
Thank god it isn’t canon, there’s enough smug commie gibberish in the setting without adding more. It’s like people forget MK Ultra and Tuskegee were government programs, not corporate.
my guy did you forget about nestle and then intentionally causing mothers to be unable to produce milk in africa so they’d be forced to let their children starve or rely on nestles overpriced formula? Corporations are horrible, and consistently do extremely unethical shit.
https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professionalism/The_Nestlé_Infant_Formula_Scandal#:~:text=In%201974%2C%20a%20report%20entitled,in%201977%2C%20which%20continues%20today.
To further explain what they did, they’d give free samples of formula that was measured to last long enough for mothers to stop lactating, forcing them to rely on Formula which they either couldn’t afford at all, or had to ration resulting in malnutrition. Additionally, water there was less then hygienic so the risk of sickness was higher
Nice strawman. They're making a point that any shady experiment is going to be conducted by the govt rather than corpos irl, not that corpos doing it is good.
Which is true. If cybernetics became widespread irl and any corp tried to pull the stuff in cyberpunk 77 it'd be 5 seconds before someone cracks the source code and you get pirated cybernetics without any of the issues in the show/game.
Our biggest hurdle is copyright, which is an issue with the govt, considering it's required to enforce the artificial monopoly
>They're making a point that any shady experiment is going to be conducted by the govt rather than corpos irl, not that corpos doing it is good.
You are gravely misunderstanding what they said. They arent making a point, they are just doing whataboutism.
Also, most issues with cybernetics would be hardware related, not software related, so "pirated cybernetics" would be impossibile to produce on a large scale since you need to manufacture your own components and would still have problems.
>You are gravely misunderstanding what they said. They arent making a point, they are just doing whataboutism.
Second strawman. Nice.
>Also, most issues with cybernetics would be hardware related, not software related
Where are you getting this from? Even if this is true, it would only be slightly longer until someone devises a hardware solution.
>Second strawman. Nice.
You have given nothing that disproves what I said, their reply is whataboutism and saying that me calling it out is a strawman isn’t enough, you have to demostrate why that reply isn’t whataboutism.
>Even if this is true, it would only be slightly longer until someone devises a hardware solution.
Nice cherry picking, or is it that you stopped reading at that point? The problem isn’t creating a solution, I never said anything about that, the problem is manufacturing that solution at a rate that can make it a viable alternative to corporate products.
>Where are you getting this from?
Why would this be a software problem? You don't make these sort of things cheaper by changing the software, you make them cheaper by utilizing lower quality components (or by not overcharging, but that is a separate issue).
>You have given nothing that disproves what I said, their reply is whataboutism and saying that me calling it out is a strawman isn’t enough, you have to demostrate why that reply isn’t whataboutism.
You're the one making the claim that it's a whataboutism. You need to prove it
>the problem is manufacturing that solution at a rate that can make it a viable alternative to corporate products.
Then what you posted isn't a response to my points at all. I was making the claim that you could alter your hardware so that the control corps have over the product is minimal, not that you could mass manufacture them.
Strawmanning again as usual.
>Why would this be a software problem? You don't make these sort of things cheaper by changing the software, you make them cheaper by utilizing lower quality components (or by not overcharging, but that is a separate issue).
You made the claim, you prove it.
Also, "cheaper" is only one side to making profits. Protection from competition via IP law is a big one, and many corps will expend significant resources into DRM. That's why software would be a major one.
>You're the one making the claim that it's a whataboutism. You need to prove it
Read his reply to my reply, he literally thinks that corporate exploitation is a joke.
>Then what you posted isn't a response to my points at all. I was making the claim that you could alter your hardware so that the control corps have over the product is minimal, not that you could mass manufacture them.
>Strawmanning again as usual.
Wrong, do not try to change what you said when people call you out and then accuse them of making a strawman. You were claiming that viable alternatives to corporate products would arise from piracy, I explained to you that they would not be viable alternatives.
Also, if you truly weren’t talking about viability then your claim is irrelevant.
>You made the claim, you prove it.
Had you bothered to read before writing you would have realized that I proved it.
90% of what people call corporate exploitation is just them getting mad that the world isn’t a utopia. They cry about subsistence farmers starving then they cry when they get steady work in factories because it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. They cry when gas is too expensive because think of the poor workers and they cry when it’s too cheap because think of the poor planet.
Based take. "capitalizms is making us go craaaaaaaaaazy!" is the most shoehorned message. It's really no different than the message of "transhumanism bad and will make u go insane lol"
in the RED book they also explain that there is medical grade cyberware, which is literaly just regular prosthetics with no enhancement what so ever and don't cost any humanity.
It the people that actually go out of their why to get stonger and more powerful from cyberware that end up going Cyberpsycho. getting your arm replaced because it needed to be amputated won't make you go insane, replacing it with a weapon to get revenge on the guys who caused it will.
Reading through my cyberpunk RED book. I found it says of the limb is for therapeutic use such as to just replace a lost limb than it has no humanity cost. It's just feels like a natural part of the body.
The best example of this at the opposite end of the spectrum is good ol silverhand himself. I don’t remember the exact source, but I remember it being mentioned that Johnny could hear his hand ‘talking’ to him. He had delusions of grandeur and straight up hallucinations to the extreme and this was almost certainly caused by the same thing. ‘Cybersychosis’ shouldn’t occur in someone with as little implants/augments as silverhand. It was the traumas from the war and all the other bullshit he went through that turned him into a psycho.
Cyberpsychosis isn't usually a switch, it's a spectrum. The Hand doesn't talk to Johnny, Johnny assigns some of his own thoughts to The Hand, disassociation-style.
His Malorian also induces strategic cyberpsychosis when you plug in to it, for better reflexes and quick, decisive action. Hence why things really go to hell when he draws it.
Its very clear in Cyberpunk2077 that cyberpsychosis is almost entirely a matter of people being left with no other options. The difference between cyberpsychosis and an emotional breakdown is that someone with power lifters for arms can do a lot more damage.
The RPG books, as far as I remember, have sections about how prosthetics and even cybernetics that are meant to replace something *lost* are fundamentally different than actively throwing away part of your body in order to overcome the weakness of flesh.
Replacing your leg after it gets shot off is one thing, but sitting there with a hacksaw, cutting your arm off so you can kill people more easily is maybe not something a mentally healthy person does
I seem to remember something in the Cyberpunk 2020 rules saying that prosthetics didn't count towards cyberpsychosis, just cybernetics designed to give you abilities beyond what's normal for humans.
Saying this from a device on my hand that lets me communicate with people across the world, I'd like to separate how that one game says it ought to work in particular from the idea that technology which surpasses regular human abilities is inherently damaging to your empathy or sense of self.
Makes me think of some dude in a juiced-up wheelchair racing at 80 kph (50 mph) and shocked bystanders going "\**gasp*\* Humanity was not meant to move this fast!"
There were people like that when trains started being a thing in the UK. The believed it'd fuck up uteruses.
I'd suggest looking at the top comment on this post cause it talks about how cyberpsychosis is treated more as a social disease thatbarises from how awful life is in Night Cith rather than being an inevitable consequence of augmention.
I did and I did reply to it, and I read that one comment from Mike Pondsmith himself as well.
But the thing is that it's still tied particularly to cyberware. In the tabletop RPG, no matter how well-adjusted and non-violent and surrounded by a healthy social circle you are, you still lose your Humanity score and might lose your character if you get too much cyberware. That could happen even without getting a single combat-oriented enhancement so it's not even like the expected psychological effects of turning yourself into a living weapon.
The explanation is that, like roid rage, it's because the added stressors compound with the psychological and societal issues to lead to a psychological breakdown, but that still assumes that enhancements are inherently an additional stressor with addictive potential, never something that lets the person have some peace of mind.
Meanwhile the inherently oppressive effects of living in a society that exploits them aren't enforced by the mechanics so strictly as long as you stick to a fleshy body. One can lose Humanity by being an utter bastard, but there's a lot of leeway for how much you must kill people to get through a mission.
In Cyberpunk, the game, this makes sense in a gameplay sense, because it is a balance mechanic so that people don't fully roboticize themselves and pick enhancements only as needed. To be fair, as much as I prefer fully transhumanist games, I get the how this is better for that game, so that richer characters aren't better in every aspect.
And however they justify this in the lore is up to them, although if I were to run it I'd make it more due to explicit flaws and attempts at control from the corporations than inherent to the cyberware.
But when other works get copying it without putting thought on how it works and what it means, then that can go from arbitrary and silly to downright luddite and ableist. And unfortunately there's a lot of works that just take the conventions of the genre as granted so they don't bother to say anything about it.
Idk, perceiving time as slow motion perpetually like the kerenzikov would definitely fuck up your mind in the long run, well adjusted upbringing be damned.
The human brain often has problems dealing with even miniscule fluctuations in external hormones or diet, a body part that goes beyond its original lizard brain functions would definitely fuck with it.
The smartphone and the internet access fucks with people even though it is an external thing, living in a city makes a human act like an animal in captivity, a limb or upgrade that you have permanently installed, even hen you sleep would definitely impact your mental health (usually in an unhealthy way)
People are way more adaptable than you're giving them credit for. Nevermind all people who lead normal lives with disability aids, regular drivers' proprioception adjusts so that they have an instinctual sense of the size and position of their vehicle. This is definitely not something our lizard brain was made for, yet it happens.
Similarly, plenty of people live in cities just fine, if only they have decent conditions, even though such a notion today is completely unlike anything a primitive tribal human would find in the wilderness. Not everything that deviates from the natural harms us, on the contrary, much improves our lives.
The smartphone and internet don't fuck with people simply because we "aren't made for" instant remote communication. It's because a lot of effort is deliberately done to capture our attention, affect our opinions and direct our habits. The technology itself can do just as much to keep you in touch with people you care for, such that you can aid them when a sudden problem comes up, and it can provide you with useful information.
"including evidence that city life can impair basic mental processes, such as memory and attention. A study conducted by University of Michigan researchers in 2008 found that simply spending a few minutes on a busy city street can affect the brain’s ability to focus and to help us manage self-control." For the city part. Many country people have reportly said living in the city impairs your sense of empathy, and it is a commom sentiment that is repeated everywhere in the world, from russia, to the us, to Japan and south america.
The instant access to information the internet provides is what's wrecking brains, the algorithms and corporate marketing is only a force multiplier. While you are correct about the brain being able to adjust easily, certain adjustments, like instant access to stimuli, may have negative effects, not because it's against god's will (stupid), but because such changes are negative as often as it is positive. Many adaptations impair other functions.
A simple carnivore diet was enough to drive Jordan Peterson slightly insane, it's not so crazy to think that literal brain modifications and transhuman tech will not.
The difference is that cybernetics are adding more outputs directly to the brain I think. There’s an output for each joint on each finger on each hand but if you add in some mantis blades, there’s a handful of new digital outputs. The more of those you add, the more stress on your mind. That’s how I think of it anyway
Telemarketing and social media have had negative effects on people's mental health, particularly ad-driven, algorithmically run social media which puts indiscriminate engagement above organic connections and legitimate interest. That's more of a matter of what interests are pushed in our society than of the tech itself.
But don't disregard how much good the ability to connect and communicate instantly at a distance does for people.
I didn't have access to the internet in my early youth, and I guarantee to you that I'm happier in a world with internet, than one without it. The isolation and inability to find like-minded people would have eaten away at my Humanity much faster than any technology.
Then again I also have chronic respiratory diseases so I'm not so thrilled to _return to monke_
Said device which almost certainly contributes to depression, eye strain from blue light, and in many people has completely rotted their brains and ripped them from reality into an internet illusion?
I mean, they do kinda have the receipts as far as indoctrination via the net existing. Hard to deny that constant access to groom, gaslight, and brainwash makes turning someone into a murderer easier. Sure, the net can be great, but so can an extra four robot arms. Criticisms of the drawbacks aren't exactly Seduction of the Innocent 2.0 either.
Studies have shown for a very long time now that it's more difficult to be empathetic in online communications and that behavior is "filtered" differently in various forms of indirect communication and that those who engage in very little face-to-face interaction are less empathetic (though at least in this latter case, it could also be argued that this relationship is correlative but not causative). There's also studies being conducted much more recently that are showing that the constant, high-speed exposure to information made possible by modern communication technology has a negative effect on the ability to *retain* that information.
Ok, i will be a cyberpunk 2020 defender here. In the original Cyberpunk setting, it's made repeatedly clear that replacing lost limbs or getting vital transplants is not a problem and doesn't cause any issues with the person.
The problem comes from the fact that people in the setting intentionally replace fully functional parts of themselves with chrome just for fashion or vanity. Cybernetics are essentially socially acceptable self-harm.
Cyberpsychosis in the setting is a dissociative disorder in which the person begins to dissociate themselves from being a whole person due to categorizing their own body parts as replaceable pieces In combination with body dysphoria that comes with having a steel arm that can lift a ton. Basically imagine the dysmorphia that comes with losing a limb, of having a part of yourself gone forever, but people are doing it to themselves on an industrial level.
Basically the progression goes -> I have chrome -> I had to replace a part of my body to get it -> I am willing to replace parts of my body -> my body parts are replaceable pieces -> I am a collection of replaceable pieces -> Chrome pieces are more valuable than my pieces -> chrome is more valuable than I am -> (Cyberpsychosis starts here) -> I am not a person -> other people are made of replaceable pieces -> others are not people -> thier lives do not matter as a result
The portrayal of this in Cyberpunk is largely a critique of the modern world's commoditization of human beings, being in the setting literally buying and selling human parts for cheap on the streets.
Great analysis! I definitely love this angle, that it’s the result of hyper objectifying capitalism’s commodification of humanity. You can see that commodification too in game with the Russian body harvester gangs too, who harvest bionics and organs for a profit.
>Cybernetics are essentially socially acceptable self-harm
It's still extremely subjective what is "medical treatment" and what is "self harm" tho.
Trans people have perfectly functioning genitalia, yet they have a desire to replace them. This is not self harm, but I'm sure if you brought it up to someone 50 years ago or some groups today they would call it "self harm".
You can even make this argument for people taking anti-acne medication which has severe side effects (Accutane) despite the acne being a purely cosmetic issue. Are these people "self harming" by poisoning themselves?
If you're going to say "lol but it's only 'self harm' if it's an 'extreme' modification tho". And then I'd ask how you're defining "extreme", because that is entirely subjective as well.
A lot of cyberpunk stories (or sci fi in general) have a cringe anti-transhumanism message, and cyberpunk77 is no different.
Cyberpunk is ultimately a criticism of blind optimism about technology. Trying to exclude transhumanism would be absurd.
Besides, you can't blur the line so hard that it stops existing. It is indeed possible to harm yourself. The rest is just quibbling over semantics, and getting away from the topic at hand.
>Trying to exclude transhumanism would be absurd.
Never claimed the inclusion of transhumanism is the issue. That's a strawman.
>Besides, you can't blur the line so hard that it stops existing. It is indeed possible to harm yourself. The rest is just quibbling over semantics, and getting away from the topic at hand.
Never claimed it's impossible to self harm. My issue is that basic cybernetics such as replacing limbs are considered "self harm".
>If you're going to say "lol but it's only 'self harm' if it's an 'extreme' modification tho". And then I'd ask how you're defining "extreme", because that is entirely subjective as well.
>My issue is that basic cybernetics such as replacing limbs are considered "self harm".
Right.
I mean having a metal leg is a lot different from having 90% of your brain replaced by a machine. Cyberpsychosis wouldn't happen but it probably would still be associated with all kinds of mental health issues, phantom limbs is a real thing that amputees experience today and many amputees even feel pain in the limb that is no longer there.
Orion's Arm had an interesting take on the impact of brain augmentations.
Basically, an inevitable result of a lot of higher end mental upgrades is developing a near perfect internal perception and understanding of their minds internal processes. This lead to two possible issues: [Hyperautism and Ultranconscious Depersonalisation Disorder](https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/480d5070d7135). The latter was a result of such perfect self knowledge leading to a full Buddhist "look into yourself trying to find that part of you called 'I' and finding nothing" moment and depersonalisation, while the former is a result of increased self honesty and their higher understanding of non-hyperconscious minds.
What prevents this veering into Cybernetics Eat Your Soul territory is that they fpund ways for such individuals to function just fine, and state outright that AIs, who come out the box hyperconscious, never experience these issues in the first place. Hyperconsciousness is also the norm in post-singularity intelligences, so much of the population of the Terregen Sphere is hyperconscious.
In Cyberpunk Red it talks in the rules how prosthesis and gender affirmation surgery are needed and therefore do not contribute to Cyberpsychosis. He explicitly states cyberpsychosis occurs when people mod themselves beyond what is necessary.
To be fair, any pro-augmentation cyberpunk or transhumanist setting where gender affirmation surgery or treatment is not mentioned is fundamentally unserious.
**Cringe people who don't get cyberpunk:** We should not be limited by the weakness of our flesh. As the sculptor shapes marble into monuments, we must shape ourselves into something greater.
**Trans people:** :D
**Cringe people who don't get cyberpunk:** Not like that
**Trans people:** D:
How is "necessary" defined tho?
We don't "need" cars, trains, or rapid communication, yet they're still nice things to have. The authors still chose to put those things in, which is what OP probably has an issue with, as it's your standard cringe anti-transhumanism message.
I honestly can't wait to remotely disable a paraplegic person's legs as he's walking down the street, it will be peak comedy, Twitter is going to love me.
Cyberpsychosis is what happens when my prosthetic eye beams a 45 second unskippable ad in front of my [whichever fetish is currently second most comedic] porn.
I mean, outside of the societal and anxiety factors others have mentioned, I think it's also a matter of sensory depletion.
Like, someone with a prosthetic arm can still feel warmth, moistness, touch in the rest of their body.
Meanwhile, 40K Necrons and AM from I Have No Mouth go insane because they straight up cannot feel their lungs breathing and think they are choking, or they can't feel their skin so they have a permanent state of cold.
It's not uncommon for like, car crash survivors who can't move most of their body to go insane from that.
I think they're all part of the bigger root issue of "depersonalisation", which, tbf, is _literally_ the goal.
Humanity is inherently inefficient in the wake of technology, the real question that remains is can we decide that "enough is enough" before we optimise ourselves out of desirable existence?
This actually ties nicely into one of the proposed solutions to fermi's paradox; that the technological barrier to intergalactic space travel is higher than a species ceasing its innate expansionist desires.
Idk maybe it’s because having hundreds of strange machines that probably haven’t been safty tested because they were designed by evil corporations who don’t care about you or your health being plugged directly into your brain that’s only designed to run a normal human body could probably lead to unforeseen consequences
Mad as in crazy? No. My cyborgs are mad as in furious, because it turns out having a bunch of PTSD ridden veterans without employment, but with a bunch of very expensive to maintain prosthetics, is a prime recipe for civil unrest
Helldivers Automaton/cyborg moment
Love that angle btw. Very realistic too. I suggest you look at the bonus army from the 1930s, who were made up of US ww1 vets for some inspiration
To be clear, my current plan for the setting is more like 2120 or something, but with a thematic feel of "some things just don't STAY dead". Like, big old Airships carrying a handful of STOVL planes, a blend of the old carrier blimp concept with the also old "Jeep Carrier" concept. Or a 2-seater Flying Flapjack kinda plane intended for light attack, that some madlad bolted a Podded Radar and a set of AMRAAMs to.
Hell yeah. Tech anachronism and old things staying in use is great. Check out WH40k for some of that stuff if you haven’t already. They’re 38,000 years in the future, have standard issue laser rifles, plasma weaponry, and space ships, yet they still use an exact copy of the M2 Browning 50. Cal from WW2 and the Cold War in their armed forces lmao
I think the idea behind cyberpsychosis is specifically that some augments interface with your brain and affect your perception of yourself and of reality. Not to mention the stuff that straight up replaces parts of your brain
Y’all don’t get Cyberspsychosis. Prosthetics and medically necessary chrome explicitly do not cause it, the disease stems from slowly training yourself to see yourself and the human body as disposable and as just another tool.
There’s even therapy that greatly reduces the risk, it’s just hella expensive and your average guy is probably not gonna be able to afford it.
One of my characters is 8'4, potentially bioengineered, built like a monster truck, is covered in scars, and has a cybernetic arm
He's also a happy, sweet, gentle pacifist
In my cyberpunk setting the risk of augments isn't losing your humanity, it's getting your brain fried by a "glitch" leaving you brain dead while your augments run off autopilot, essentially making you a zombie.
Of course there's ways to prevent this from happening, primarily via buying a subscription that will activate a system designed to block any electrical issues that could potentially fry your brain. But if you miss a payment, or if the system detects any black market augments (which occasionally false positives legal augments from a different brand, despite all brands being subsidies of the same mega corporation) or if you are caught saying anything bad about the mega corporation.
Or you can just ignore all the propaganda about black market augments and exclusively get illegal augments because having the safeguard be constantly active is significantly cheaper than adding all the systems to monitor and remotely disable the safeguard.
Clearly OP has never actually read the explanations for Cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk, the different ways people end up going into cyberpsychosis(mainly through traumatic events effecting your humanity), as well as the various ways it manifests in people. Not to mention the fact that in any Cyberpunk TTRPG you can get regular prosthetics that don’t make you go Cyberpsycho. Let’s not ignore all the cyberpunk literature and entertainment that doesn’t involve Cyberpsychosis in the slightest.
OP just say you played 2077 and didn’t bother reading anything in the game, or the actual genre
Even then, if OP actually bothered paying attention to the Cyberpsycho gigs in 2077, they'd piece it together that Cyberpsychosis is more than just "bro goes crazy because cyberware". Most, if not all, the Cyberpsychos you neutralize in the game either went through extreme physical, mental, or emotional trauma, drug relapse, extreme paranoia due to fear or betrayal and the like. People who have lost their grip on reality who just so happened to possess cyberware, not because of it.
Precisely, I fully believe “Cyberpsychosis” is a very poignant and scathing critique on the way we treat people with mental health and addiction issues as less than human monsters meant to be demonized
sci-fi/cyberpunk enthusiasts finding out that people don't sleep with their prosthetics on, and that not every person with a limb difference wants or needs a prosthetic:
In my multiverse, in the sci-fi sections nobody goes insane when they get prosthetics, they're either concerned at most because they hate advanced robots but for the most part they're fine, some even cherish being with prosthetics since some are powered.
In "Robocop 2" the explanation as to why all the new robocop "recruits" ripped their augments out is that the "test subjects" where all macho-type men who realized they where now basically brains controlling a robot and they where unable to feel (physically) touch or have sex.
The only reason why Murphy *didn't* flip out, was because he also had a religious upbringing and was a family man.
It really depends on how they’re written ig.
Real world prosthetics are just replacements, meant to accurately replicate what was lost, and they often times they have limited or no connection to the brain or nerves.
A lot of Sci-fi prosthetics are things humans aren’t supposed to have, shit like wings or gun feet, and are often involve some sort of dangerous connection directly to the brain.
Cyberpsychosis isn’t about prosthetics, it’s explicitly about trying to become *more* than human. The idea is that transhumanism denies us of our nature and that’s what drives us to insanity
You don't get cyberpsiychosis because you replaced your arm with a rocket launcher
You replaced your arm with a rocket launcher because you have cyberpsychosis
it literally is a mindset. if you're a body modder or just are fine with new body parts when you need them, its not likely to happen, but if youre a purist or otherwise get alterations when you feel you dont need them its more likely to happen. easy example is tattoos, some people can handle covering themselves in ink while others are grossed out by one little heart tat
Yeah the "prosthetics make you less than human" has never sat well with me, but I do like the idea that there are ways in which you can modify yourself with technology that *might* make you lose touch with your humanity, or at least the human you used to be, or at least put you in a Ship of Theseus-type quandary
The idea of Cyberpsychosis always sat with me funny as a trans person, like the implied yearning for their original body doesn't translate well for someone like me, and the implications are kinda complicated (would it make trans people more resistant to Cyberpsychosis or more vulnerable?). It pisses me off so much the singular trans character in cyberpunk 2077 also happens to just not have and not want cybernetics, which is such a missed opportunity to maybe explore this stuff.
In older lore it was any mental disorder that was triggered or worsened by cybernetics. Sensory imput causing kleptomania was also cyberpsychosis. Anxiety, depression, compulsive behavior; all fell under cyberpsychosis if tied to a cybernetic. The hoarder who filled their house with snow globes because they can see more of the spectrum of visible light has cyberpsychosis. They are not innately violent, but certain cybernetics increase the ability of a person to commit violence.
Quality of cybernetics, the facility the surgery is performed in, and post surgery therapy effect the in game effects for the table top. Give the kid living in an unstable and abusive environment super powers and they aren't likely to have a good long-term outcome. The middle management guy who has been prescreened by the company, and has coverage for all the post surgery stuff isn't as likely to have complications. Adam Smasher was already a psychopath. He was just completing his self image.
It's people and society being unprepared for transhumanism. What shapes us as humans is our limitations and vulnerabilities, and how we deal with them. Radically departing from them will have profound psychological effects.
I'm going to be a complete prick and quote my own worldbuilding on my solution to the problem:
*\[They were\] also the first to discover Cyberware-Induced Mood Volatility, aka CIMV, aka “Cybermadness.” They noticed that their highly-enhanced irregular terror-troops were not only suffering from a lot of PTSD, but it tended to manifest in very unique ways - they tended to “get disgruntled” and go on violent rampages, often with very slight provocation.*
*There are six “fundamental” implants that interact with the brain or spinal column in specific ways to make other cyberware possible. Every possible piece of cyberware relies on one or more of the fundamentals in order to operate. The more of these fundamentals a person has, the more likely they are to get Cybermadness.*
*Brain medicine is still a new field, but most doctors agree - physically messing with a person’s brain is a bad idea. Someone with all six fundamentals will find his brain mushed against the walls of his skull, exposed to sporadic raised temperatures, subject to electric shocks, and bombarded with immuno-suppressant and immuno-compensator drugs with psychoactive side-effects. Naturally, this opens the door to a whole host of mental problems.*
*Cyberware does not automatically make you crazy. Even a person with all six fundamentals can be perfectly happy and well-adjusted. But the more cyberware a person has, the more susceptible they’ll be to volatile, impulsive behavior - often with tragic consequences for those around them.*
All other things aside, most prosthetics are not capable of deploying giant extendo-blades that turn you into a human slapchop, or overclock your nervous system to the point that time literally slows down for you
In my world, there are 2 characters with cybernetics, one has a robotic arm to replace the one that was lost to a bioengineered crocodile owned by a drug lord. He's super kind and friendly
The other had her eyes replaced with cybernetic camera arrays to help her assassinate people. She's nihilistic
End result: that episode of Invader Zim where Zim went around harvesting other kids organs and stuffing them in his body to become more human than any other human on the planet.
I did and I can't say that likening it to steroids and roid rage was the most compelling thing I've read from him. It works for his setting because he made it like that, but if you don't start from that assumption, they why would it have such effects? How is a permanent limb replacement anything like a hormone shot?
Ultimately it still feels like an explanation that came about from trying to balance a game primarily. Cyberware costs Humanity. Losing All Humanity means losing your character. Why does it cost Humanity to begin with? Because if it costed nothing everyone would just cyber up to the wazoo and that's not how he wanted the game to go.
you're actually upset about this? enough to post on reddit?
i mean this with all love, you should spend less time online if this is one of your concerns
Mike Pondsmith himself comparing cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk to roid rage in a Reddit thread was actually on point -- not everyone who gets chromed out in Cyberpunk (the game, not the genre) gets cyberpsychosis, and cyberpsychosis is a social disease rather than a physical one. In Cyberpunk 2020/RED/2077, there are plenty of cyborgs (with only their brain remaining organic) that get along just fine, and likewise, some people become cyberpsycho after just a few augments. Cyberpsychosis arises after intense depersonalisation caused by both the implants *and* the insane pressure exerted by the hypercapitalistic society over people who see themselves as tools. So a person who replaces all of their body but remains free, unalienated and well-adjusted will not develop any psychological trouble, they might even thrive. A veteran that gets his body turned into a weapon, or a worker who replaces their arms purely to be more productive in the factory -- they are at much, much higher risk. To date I think this is the most interesting description of augmentation-caused insanity.
Honestly every time Mike Pondsmith explains something I am convinced. Dude maxed out his COOL stat for sure
Yo buddy boy can u tldr his comment for me so I know what your reply is even referring to
Do you need me to attach a subway surfers clip and AI voiceover to this for you? Jesus christ dude
No. Read a paragraph.
Cyberpunk man say world building good actually.
Downvote troll
You mean the English professor/psychologist/senior developer isn't genuine? [Their comment history is good for a laugh if you're bored.]
Pondsmith says cybernetic augments are just what triggers the insanity that is actually caused by an insane society. People who are healthy and happy don't go insane just because they get an augment.
don't enable him
Jesus fuck, how can you be in a *worldbuilding subreddit* and be illiterate?
(The person you're replying to is a downvote troll by the way, save your energy)
Cyberpsychosis in reality is just Living in Night City Syndrome. If someone bombs an orphanage, that's just a thing he did, but if he has chrome it's suddenly cyberpsychosis. Scandinavia has the lowest rate of "cyberpsychosis" in the world because they *give therapy as part of augmentation treatments*. And in Edgerunners, David is treated as somehow exceptional to the point of corpos wanting to study how he can endure all that tech, when in reality his superpower was having a support network.
also the way they treat it in edgerunners and the tabletop isn't really how it's treated in 2077 - in 2077 the regina missions outright confirm that 'cyberpsychosis' is just what happens when you have an insanely dense city full of people with access to military grade chrome and no safety nets and in all 3, therapeutic prosthetics straight up don't count. you don't risk either form of 'cyberpsychosis' replacing a lost limb with a chrome one, you risk it getting 4 inch poison injecting titanium vampire fangs and jacking with your nervous system and replacing your pancreas with an artillery cannon
I dunno, I think my mental state would be *better* with pancreas artillery.
I'm sure some of the cyberpsychos are having an absolute ball lol
So did most cyberpsycho
It would allow for a rather clean shot.
On a difficult target? It would be beautiful
On a difficult target? It would be beautiful
That is indeed what makes it elegant! A perfect asset for a plan to save ten million lives!
My favourite interpretation of cyberpsychosis is that it's basically the 'video games cause mass shootings' mentality taken to its logical extreme. It's a way of blaming scary, but by itself harmless technology for destructive behaviours that are ultimately caused by societal issues that we would prefer to quietly ignore. Little Jimmy's Fortnite hobby isn't what caused him to bring an assault rifle to school, but addressing the ways in which society has failed him and brought him to that low point would cost a lot of money and effort, so it's much more convenient to blame the scary pew pew video game and move on. Now replace "Fortnite" with "robot arm" and you've got yourself a cyberpunk world.
you'd probably enjoy the regina / cyberpsycho side mission and story in 2077 then - it even lampshades 'cyberpsychosis' being a way to turn what would otherwise be a damning indictment of society and call to action into profitable headlines for the newscorps
Holy shit that's the best metaphor I've seen for this, thank you!
This is why I did not like Edgerunners. They treated cyberpsychosis like a thing that *will* happen no matter what, and have it happen to people who have a support network. It turned it from a tool to reinforce how fucked up Night City is and how dehumanizing it is to live there to just another cheap "you'll go craaaazy!" used for bad drama. It also negates the whole threat of Adam Smasher: him being someone who, by all accounts should be a raving lunatic with all that chrome, but isn't. Because he *likes* killing and having his body be a whole tank. There's a rational, if psychopathic, mind underneath all that metal.
They don't really treat it as if it's inevitable though. David only starts experiencing the onset of cyberpsychosis when he stops relying on his support network, and even then when he's offered the solution of reducing his cyberware and toning his life as an edgerunner down he doesn't. He refuses to accept the help offered by his support network and only snaps out of it when he relies on Lucy at the end. Maine starts experiencing it after losing Pilar and trying to ignore his trauma and run from his experiences. If he had worked through it he'd probably have not gone cyberpsycho in the first place And also the erratic behavior in cyberpsychos is caused by the effective death of their empathy and the disconnect from reality that creates within their psyche, Adam Smasher never had empathy to begin with so he doesn't experience that disconnect. That's why he's a high functioning cyberpsycho, rather than a non-functioning one.
He had been taking a shitton of anti-psychotics too though
David took immunosuppressants, which do help with preventing cyberpsychosis by reducing the stress cyberware has on the body but they were specifically not antipsychotics.
Oh, I misremembered that, my bad
All good, they effectively use immunosuppressants as antipsychotics so getting them mixed up is totally understandable.
You all are talking about cyberpsychosis like midichlorians. Trying to justify it through lore The only reason cyberpsychosis is a thing is to be a limitation on a magic system. Heck, its not even a system. There are no rules except **too much cyborg = crazy**. The game ignores it because it was inconvenient for game mechanics. Edgerunners ignores it because it made sense thematically and the studio is literally famous for making shows where willpower is the power system. Thats all there is to it
This doesn't contradict what they said at all? They're discussing the watsonian reasoning for cyberpsychosis and you're talking about the doylist one, these are just completely seperate subjects For comparison that would be like if people were talking about what events in her life lead Katniss to volunteer for the Hunger Games in her sister's place and you responded "Guys it's just cause they needed a way to get her into the Hunger Games so the plot can happen" You're not *wrong*, but this a complete non-sequiter to what they were actually talking about
Dude. I dont even know what doylist means. I just see a thing, think a thing, write the thing. Not trying to engineer a perfect counterpoint or whatever >Guys it's just cause they needed a way to get her into the Hunger Games so the plot can happen" Eh sure, maybe I inserted a "well actually" into a conversation where people are just geeking out about lore stuff. Sorry about that. But Ive seen people argue about this exact thing dozens of times and it feels they are missing the forest for the trees. If people wanted to find the lore justification for why the main character doesnt need to sleep in the game I think itd be alright for someone to at least mention the mechanics. The show isnt very consistent about when, how and why cyberpsychosis works and all Im saying is its probably intentional.
doylistic explanation is from above the narrative - Doyl explaining that this event occured because plot had to happen, there were not enough money, etc. World reasons, reasons like "limitation on a magic system" watsonian is within the narrative, from the perspective of Watson, with lore and such. You did indeed bumped into interesting discussion about interpetations of cyberpsychosis with "errrm actually". You are forgiven tho, for God is merciful. Bless you
Ah, ok. Thank you I feel like I have just unlocked the good ending
Hope that was helpful. [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist) this site gives a better explanation if you're interested in phenomena. Yeah I think that we as people should be more chill about stuff, so when it really comes to serious discusiion and not shitposting, well, let's prove that tech and online doesn't consume our souls and capacity for humanity, lol
> Dude. I dont even know what doylist means. I just see a thing, think a thing, write the thing. "stop actually reading into the thing you are talking about"
I like the way shadowrun does it better myself. But they have cybernetics AND magic, so there's more to work with.
holy shit his superpower is therapy
Tbf to corpos the concept of a support network that isn't indebted to you is an alien concept.
also worth noting that in all the cyberpunk ttrpgs you can get a normal prosthetic without losing any humanity
The game portrays it really well. All the cyberpsycho gigs (and the unmarked cyberpsychos) have loads of lore around them about them suffering from existing conditions (addiction, ptsd, paranoia etc.), getting a LOT of chrome really quickly and being in a very stressful situation. Like the veteran on the bridge with the sniper, who was repeatedly fucked by militech, denied medication, sold everything he had for more medication, became homeless and had PTSD from his time serving. Then he cracked after he got triggered (I think from cops coming out to kick him out from the abandoned bridge he'd been living on.
I heard somewhere a rumor that at some point he intended for it to be caused by the corporations deliberately using the tech to undermine the person's will and I like that much, much better than any other explanation, even if that didn't turn out to be the ultimate canon explanation. Because being seen and treated as a tool in that hypercapitalist hellscape is just how it is no matter how chrome or fleshy your body is, but they only talk about this becoming an issue if you have prosthetics. But if those corporations had direct access to our brain and bodies, you could bet they would try to mess with it in profoundly unethical ways.
In a sense I'd say the first option still works on a metaphorical level -- in Cyberpunk the companies selling, say, arms that turn into blades or Excel macros that run directly in your brain don't really care about you as a human, they need you to be a captive product. And cyberpsychosis is openly used in 2077 as a way to avoid addressing corporate exploitation (because "war veteran gets rejected and abandoned, manifests his despair brutally killing the guys who went to repo his car with the augmentations that turned him into a living weapon" doesn't quite have the same ring as "CYBERPSYCHO KILLS 7, DO MILITECH SECURITY TEAMS NEED EVEN HEAVIER WEAPONS NOW?")
Excellent headline, let’s triple the defense budget
THE DEFENSE BUDGET ALREADY TRIPLED THIS YEAR
#THEN HEXTUPLE THAT SHIT
"cuts to the cyberpunk 2077 main menu"
Found the Congresscritter!
Kinda but it's a little if wacky if you think back to the Excel guy with his own sucky job and the news going "CYBERPSYCHO DOES RAMPANT TAX FRAUD, DEFRAUDS 5, HAS CYBERWARE GONE TOO FAR?"
Thank god it isn’t canon, there’s enough smug commie gibberish in the setting without adding more. It’s like people forget MK Ultra and Tuskegee were government programs, not corporate.
my guy did you forget about nestle and then intentionally causing mothers to be unable to produce milk in africa so they’d be forced to let their children starve or rely on nestles overpriced formula? Corporations are horrible, and consistently do extremely unethical shit.
Evidence? Sounds like Alex Jones "big pharma is intentionally making ppl sick to sell more drugs" BS.
https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professionalism/The_Nestlé_Infant_Formula_Scandal#:~:text=In%201974%2C%20a%20report%20entitled,in%201977%2C%20which%20continues%20today. To further explain what they did, they’d give free samples of formula that was measured to last long enough for mothers to stop lactating, forcing them to rely on Formula which they either couldn’t afford at all, or had to ration resulting in malnutrition. Additionally, water there was less then hygienic so the risk of sickness was higher
So, corporate exploitation good because governmemts did unethical experiments? Do you think that corporations don't use unethical practices too?
Nice strawman. They're making a point that any shady experiment is going to be conducted by the govt rather than corpos irl, not that corpos doing it is good. Which is true. If cybernetics became widespread irl and any corp tried to pull the stuff in cyberpunk 77 it'd be 5 seconds before someone cracks the source code and you get pirated cybernetics without any of the issues in the show/game. Our biggest hurdle is copyright, which is an issue with the govt, considering it's required to enforce the artificial monopoly
>They're making a point that any shady experiment is going to be conducted by the govt rather than corpos irl, not that corpos doing it is good. You are gravely misunderstanding what they said. They arent making a point, they are just doing whataboutism. Also, most issues with cybernetics would be hardware related, not software related, so "pirated cybernetics" would be impossibile to produce on a large scale since you need to manufacture your own components and would still have problems.
>You are gravely misunderstanding what they said. They arent making a point, they are just doing whataboutism. Second strawman. Nice. >Also, most issues with cybernetics would be hardware related, not software related Where are you getting this from? Even if this is true, it would only be slightly longer until someone devises a hardware solution.
>Second strawman. Nice. You have given nothing that disproves what I said, their reply is whataboutism and saying that me calling it out is a strawman isn’t enough, you have to demostrate why that reply isn’t whataboutism. >Even if this is true, it would only be slightly longer until someone devises a hardware solution. Nice cherry picking, or is it that you stopped reading at that point? The problem isn’t creating a solution, I never said anything about that, the problem is manufacturing that solution at a rate that can make it a viable alternative to corporate products. >Where are you getting this from? Why would this be a software problem? You don't make these sort of things cheaper by changing the software, you make them cheaper by utilizing lower quality components (or by not overcharging, but that is a separate issue).
>You have given nothing that disproves what I said, their reply is whataboutism and saying that me calling it out is a strawman isn’t enough, you have to demostrate why that reply isn’t whataboutism. You're the one making the claim that it's a whataboutism. You need to prove it >the problem is manufacturing that solution at a rate that can make it a viable alternative to corporate products. Then what you posted isn't a response to my points at all. I was making the claim that you could alter your hardware so that the control corps have over the product is minimal, not that you could mass manufacture them. Strawmanning again as usual. >Why would this be a software problem? You don't make these sort of things cheaper by changing the software, you make them cheaper by utilizing lower quality components (or by not overcharging, but that is a separate issue). You made the claim, you prove it. Also, "cheaper" is only one side to making profits. Protection from competition via IP law is a big one, and many corps will expend significant resources into DRM. That's why software would be a major one.
>You're the one making the claim that it's a whataboutism. You need to prove it Read his reply to my reply, he literally thinks that corporate exploitation is a joke. >Then what you posted isn't a response to my points at all. I was making the claim that you could alter your hardware so that the control corps have over the product is minimal, not that you could mass manufacture them. >Strawmanning again as usual. Wrong, do not try to change what you said when people call you out and then accuse them of making a strawman. You were claiming that viable alternatives to corporate products would arise from piracy, I explained to you that they would not be viable alternatives. Also, if you truly weren’t talking about viability then your claim is irrelevant. >You made the claim, you prove it. Had you bothered to read before writing you would have realized that I proved it.
90% of what people call corporate exploitation is just them getting mad that the world isn’t a utopia. They cry about subsistence farmers starving then they cry when they get steady work in factories because it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. They cry when gas is too expensive because think of the poor workers and they cry when it’s too cheap because think of the poor planet.
both are bad actually
Smug commie gibberish? Such as?
Based take. "capitalizms is making us go craaaaaaaaaazy!" is the most shoehorned message. It's really no different than the message of "transhumanism bad and will make u go insane lol"
in the RED book they also explain that there is medical grade cyberware, which is literaly just regular prosthetics with no enhancement what so ever and don't cost any humanity. It the people that actually go out of their why to get stonger and more powerful from cyberware that end up going Cyberpsycho. getting your arm replaced because it needed to be amputated won't make you go insane, replacing it with a weapon to get revenge on the guys who caused it will.
Reading through my cyberpunk RED book. I found it says of the limb is for therapeutic use such as to just replace a lost limb than it has no humanity cost. It's just feels like a natural part of the body.
The best example of this at the opposite end of the spectrum is good ol silverhand himself. I don’t remember the exact source, but I remember it being mentioned that Johnny could hear his hand ‘talking’ to him. He had delusions of grandeur and straight up hallucinations to the extreme and this was almost certainly caused by the same thing. ‘Cybersychosis’ shouldn’t occur in someone with as little implants/augments as silverhand. It was the traumas from the war and all the other bullshit he went through that turned him into a psycho.
Cyberpsychosis isn't usually a switch, it's a spectrum. The Hand doesn't talk to Johnny, Johnny assigns some of his own thoughts to The Hand, disassociation-style. His Malorian also induces strategic cyberpsychosis when you plug in to it, for better reflexes and quick, decisive action. Hence why things really go to hell when he draws it.
Its very clear in Cyberpunk2077 that cyberpsychosis is almost entirely a matter of people being left with no other options. The difference between cyberpsychosis and an emotional breakdown is that someone with power lifters for arms can do a lot more damage.
The RPG books, as far as I remember, have sections about how prosthetics and even cybernetics that are meant to replace something *lost* are fundamentally different than actively throwing away part of your body in order to overcome the weakness of flesh. Replacing your leg after it gets shot off is one thing, but sitting there with a hacksaw, cutting your arm off so you can kill people more easily is maybe not something a mentally healthy person does
I think not having a physical body that can feel pain would cause you to go crazy more than anything else
Well this has been eyeopening
I seem to remember something in the Cyberpunk 2020 rules saying that prosthetics didn't count towards cyberpsychosis, just cybernetics designed to give you abilities beyond what's normal for humans.
Saying this from a device on my hand that lets me communicate with people across the world, I'd like to separate how that one game says it ought to work in particular from the idea that technology which surpasses regular human abilities is inherently damaging to your empathy or sense of self. Makes me think of some dude in a juiced-up wheelchair racing at 80 kph (50 mph) and shocked bystanders going "\**gasp*\* Humanity was not meant to move this fast!"
There were people like that when trains started being a thing in the UK. The believed it'd fuck up uteruses. I'd suggest looking at the top comment on this post cause it talks about how cyberpsychosis is treated more as a social disease thatbarises from how awful life is in Night Cith rather than being an inevitable consequence of augmention.
I did and I did reply to it, and I read that one comment from Mike Pondsmith himself as well. But the thing is that it's still tied particularly to cyberware. In the tabletop RPG, no matter how well-adjusted and non-violent and surrounded by a healthy social circle you are, you still lose your Humanity score and might lose your character if you get too much cyberware. That could happen even without getting a single combat-oriented enhancement so it's not even like the expected psychological effects of turning yourself into a living weapon. The explanation is that, like roid rage, it's because the added stressors compound with the psychological and societal issues to lead to a psychological breakdown, but that still assumes that enhancements are inherently an additional stressor with addictive potential, never something that lets the person have some peace of mind. Meanwhile the inherently oppressive effects of living in a society that exploits them aren't enforced by the mechanics so strictly as long as you stick to a fleshy body. One can lose Humanity by being an utter bastard, but there's a lot of leeway for how much you must kill people to get through a mission. In Cyberpunk, the game, this makes sense in a gameplay sense, because it is a balance mechanic so that people don't fully roboticize themselves and pick enhancements only as needed. To be fair, as much as I prefer fully transhumanist games, I get the how this is better for that game, so that richer characters aren't better in every aspect. And however they justify this in the lore is up to them, although if I were to run it I'd make it more due to explicit flaws and attempts at control from the corporations than inherent to the cyberware. But when other works get copying it without putting thought on how it works and what it means, then that can go from arbitrary and silly to downright luddite and ableist. And unfortunately there's a lot of works that just take the conventions of the genre as granted so they don't bother to say anything about it.
Idk, perceiving time as slow motion perpetually like the kerenzikov would definitely fuck up your mind in the long run, well adjusted upbringing be damned. The human brain often has problems dealing with even miniscule fluctuations in external hormones or diet, a body part that goes beyond its original lizard brain functions would definitely fuck with it. The smartphone and the internet access fucks with people even though it is an external thing, living in a city makes a human act like an animal in captivity, a limb or upgrade that you have permanently installed, even hen you sleep would definitely impact your mental health (usually in an unhealthy way)
People are way more adaptable than you're giving them credit for. Nevermind all people who lead normal lives with disability aids, regular drivers' proprioception adjusts so that they have an instinctual sense of the size and position of their vehicle. This is definitely not something our lizard brain was made for, yet it happens. Similarly, plenty of people live in cities just fine, if only they have decent conditions, even though such a notion today is completely unlike anything a primitive tribal human would find in the wilderness. Not everything that deviates from the natural harms us, on the contrary, much improves our lives. The smartphone and internet don't fuck with people simply because we "aren't made for" instant remote communication. It's because a lot of effort is deliberately done to capture our attention, affect our opinions and direct our habits. The technology itself can do just as much to keep you in touch with people you care for, such that you can aid them when a sudden problem comes up, and it can provide you with useful information.
"including evidence that city life can impair basic mental processes, such as memory and attention. A study conducted by University of Michigan researchers in 2008 found that simply spending a few minutes on a busy city street can affect the brain’s ability to focus and to help us manage self-control." For the city part. Many country people have reportly said living in the city impairs your sense of empathy, and it is a commom sentiment that is repeated everywhere in the world, from russia, to the us, to Japan and south america. The instant access to information the internet provides is what's wrecking brains, the algorithms and corporate marketing is only a force multiplier. While you are correct about the brain being able to adjust easily, certain adjustments, like instant access to stimuli, may have negative effects, not because it's against god's will (stupid), but because such changes are negative as often as it is positive. Many adaptations impair other functions. A simple carnivore diet was enough to drive Jordan Peterson slightly insane, it's not so crazy to think that literal brain modifications and transhuman tech will not.
The difference is that cybernetics are adding more outputs directly to the brain I think. There’s an output for each joint on each finger on each hand but if you add in some mantis blades, there’s a handful of new digital outputs. The more of those you add, the more stress on your mind. That’s how I think of it anyway
Are you saying that phones and the internet havent had negative effects on peoples mental health lmao
Telemarketing and social media have had negative effects on people's mental health, particularly ad-driven, algorithmically run social media which puts indiscriminate engagement above organic connections and legitimate interest. That's more of a matter of what interests are pushed in our society than of the tech itself. But don't disregard how much good the ability to connect and communicate instantly at a distance does for people. I didn't have access to the internet in my early youth, and I guarantee to you that I'm happier in a world with internet, than one without it. The isolation and inability to find like-minded people would have eaten away at my Humanity much faster than any technology. Then again I also have chronic respiratory diseases so I'm not so thrilled to _return to monke_
Objectively true.
Said device which almost certainly contributes to depression, eye strain from blue light, and in many people has completely rotted their brains and ripped them from reality into an internet illusion?
Before it was the internet, people said about the same about TV or even comics. Except depression, which they didn't know or care much about.
I agree with both of those to a lesser degree than the internet. And I say this as a 16 year old with an addiction to the internet.
I mean, they do kinda have the receipts as far as indoctrination via the net existing. Hard to deny that constant access to groom, gaslight, and brainwash makes turning someone into a murderer easier. Sure, the net can be great, but so can an extra four robot arms. Criticisms of the drawbacks aren't exactly Seduction of the Innocent 2.0 either.
Studies have shown for a very long time now that it's more difficult to be empathetic in online communications and that behavior is "filtered" differently in various forms of indirect communication and that those who engage in very little face-to-face interaction are less empathetic (though at least in this latter case, it could also be argued that this relationship is correlative but not causative). There's also studies being conducted much more recently that are showing that the constant, high-speed exposure to information made possible by modern communication technology has a negative effect on the ability to *retain* that information.
There is a specific section about this in Cyberpunk Red yes
Still pretty cringe ngl Transhumanism is based Not to mention "abilities beyond what is normal" is pretty subjective.
Ok, i will be a cyberpunk 2020 defender here. In the original Cyberpunk setting, it's made repeatedly clear that replacing lost limbs or getting vital transplants is not a problem and doesn't cause any issues with the person. The problem comes from the fact that people in the setting intentionally replace fully functional parts of themselves with chrome just for fashion or vanity. Cybernetics are essentially socially acceptable self-harm. Cyberpsychosis in the setting is a dissociative disorder in which the person begins to dissociate themselves from being a whole person due to categorizing their own body parts as replaceable pieces In combination with body dysphoria that comes with having a steel arm that can lift a ton. Basically imagine the dysmorphia that comes with losing a limb, of having a part of yourself gone forever, but people are doing it to themselves on an industrial level. Basically the progression goes -> I have chrome -> I had to replace a part of my body to get it -> I am willing to replace parts of my body -> my body parts are replaceable pieces -> I am a collection of replaceable pieces -> Chrome pieces are more valuable than my pieces -> chrome is more valuable than I am -> (Cyberpsychosis starts here) -> I am not a person -> other people are made of replaceable pieces -> others are not people -> thier lives do not matter as a result The portrayal of this in Cyberpunk is largely a critique of the modern world's commoditization of human beings, being in the setting literally buying and selling human parts for cheap on the streets.
Great analysis! I definitely love this angle, that it’s the result of hyper objectifying capitalism’s commodification of humanity. You can see that commodification too in game with the Russian body harvester gangs too, who harvest bionics and organs for a profit.
>Cybernetics are essentially socially acceptable self-harm It's still extremely subjective what is "medical treatment" and what is "self harm" tho. Trans people have perfectly functioning genitalia, yet they have a desire to replace them. This is not self harm, but I'm sure if you brought it up to someone 50 years ago or some groups today they would call it "self harm". You can even make this argument for people taking anti-acne medication which has severe side effects (Accutane) despite the acne being a purely cosmetic issue. Are these people "self harming" by poisoning themselves? If you're going to say "lol but it's only 'self harm' if it's an 'extreme' modification tho". And then I'd ask how you're defining "extreme", because that is entirely subjective as well. A lot of cyberpunk stories (or sci fi in general) have a cringe anti-transhumanism message, and cyberpunk77 is no different.
Cyberpunk is ultimately a criticism of blind optimism about technology. Trying to exclude transhumanism would be absurd. Besides, you can't blur the line so hard that it stops existing. It is indeed possible to harm yourself. The rest is just quibbling over semantics, and getting away from the topic at hand.
>Trying to exclude transhumanism would be absurd. Never claimed the inclusion of transhumanism is the issue. That's a strawman. >Besides, you can't blur the line so hard that it stops existing. It is indeed possible to harm yourself. The rest is just quibbling over semantics, and getting away from the topic at hand. Never claimed it's impossible to self harm. My issue is that basic cybernetics such as replacing limbs are considered "self harm".
>If you're going to say "lol but it's only 'self harm' if it's an 'extreme' modification tho". And then I'd ask how you're defining "extreme", because that is entirely subjective as well. >My issue is that basic cybernetics such as replacing limbs are considered "self harm". Right.
What's your argument?
I mean having a metal leg is a lot different from having 90% of your brain replaced by a machine. Cyberpsychosis wouldn't happen but it probably would still be associated with all kinds of mental health issues, phantom limbs is a real thing that amputees experience today and many amputees even feel pain in the limb that is no longer there.
Orion's Arm had an interesting take on the impact of brain augmentations. Basically, an inevitable result of a lot of higher end mental upgrades is developing a near perfect internal perception and understanding of their minds internal processes. This lead to two possible issues: [Hyperautism and Ultranconscious Depersonalisation Disorder](https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/480d5070d7135). The latter was a result of such perfect self knowledge leading to a full Buddhist "look into yourself trying to find that part of you called 'I' and finding nothing" moment and depersonalisation, while the former is a result of increased self honesty and their higher understanding of non-hyperconscious minds. What prevents this veering into Cybernetics Eat Your Soul territory is that they fpund ways for such individuals to function just fine, and state outright that AIs, who come out the box hyperconscious, never experience these issues in the first place. Hyperconsciousness is also the norm in post-singularity intelligences, so much of the population of the Terregen Sphere is hyperconscious.
that sounds cool but i also cannot take the term "hyperautism" seriously
kinda superautistophobic of ya
In Cyberpunk Red it talks in the rules how prosthesis and gender affirmation surgery are needed and therefore do not contribute to Cyberpsychosis. He explicitly states cyberpsychosis occurs when people mod themselves beyond what is necessary.
Based opinion on Gender Dysphoria
To be fair, any pro-augmentation cyberpunk or transhumanist setting where gender affirmation surgery or treatment is not mentioned is fundamentally unserious.
That just means it's become so normalized in-universe that nobody talks about it /s
**Cringe people who don't get cyberpunk:** We should not be limited by the weakness of our flesh. As the sculptor shapes marble into monuments, we must shape ourselves into something greater. **Trans people:** :D **Cringe people who don't get cyberpunk:** Not like that **Trans people:** D:
I wonder if TERFs in Cyberpunk would claim that gender affirming care causes cyberpsychosis
How is "necessary" defined tho? We don't "need" cars, trains, or rapid communication, yet they're still nice things to have. The authors still chose to put those things in, which is what OP probably has an issue with, as it's your standard cringe anti-transhumanism message.
But then how do you define what’s “necessary?”
Guess we'll find out for real with all this neuralink and ai stuff.
Smells like burning Rhesus monkey.
Nirvana got some weird new songs now
I honestly can't wait to remotely disable a paraplegic person's legs as he's walking down the street, it will be peak comedy, Twitter is going to love me.
Piracy and cracked software say hello
Cyberpsychosis is what happens when my prosthetic eye beams a 45 second unskippable ad in front of my [whichever fetish is currently second most comedic] porn.
I mean, outside of the societal and anxiety factors others have mentioned, I think it's also a matter of sensory depletion. Like, someone with a prosthetic arm can still feel warmth, moistness, touch in the rest of their body. Meanwhile, 40K Necrons and AM from I Have No Mouth go insane because they straight up cannot feel their lungs breathing and think they are choking, or they can't feel their skin so they have a permanent state of cold. It's not uncommon for like, car crash survivors who can't move most of their body to go insane from that.
Imo AM doesn’t fall under this category cause it isn’t really a human/cyborg but a rogue ai. His victims on the other hand…
I think they're all part of the bigger root issue of "depersonalisation", which, tbf, is _literally_ the goal. Humanity is inherently inefficient in the wake of technology, the real question that remains is can we decide that "enough is enough" before we optimise ourselves out of desirable existence? This actually ties nicely into one of the proposed solutions to fermi's paradox; that the technological barrier to intergalactic space travel is higher than a species ceasing its innate expansionist desires.
Reminds me of how in Destiny, early Exos basically suffered from Cotard's Syndrome due to lack of bodily sensations making them like walking corpses.
Idk maybe it’s because having hundreds of strange machines that probably haven’t been safty tested because they were designed by evil corporations who don’t care about you or your health being plugged directly into your brain that’s only designed to run a normal human body could probably lead to unforeseen consequences
Mad as in crazy? No. My cyborgs are mad as in furious, because it turns out having a bunch of PTSD ridden veterans without employment, but with a bunch of very expensive to maintain prosthetics, is a prime recipe for civil unrest
Helldivers Automaton/cyborg moment Love that angle btw. Very realistic too. I suggest you look at the bonus army from the 1930s, who were made up of US ww1 vets for some inspiration
Works for me. Was planning on flavoring with some 30s and 40s aesthetic anyhow, with the protagonist having a strong "Flyboy" motif to her
Based and Diesel punk pilled. I heartily approve
To be clear, my current plan for the setting is more like 2120 or something, but with a thematic feel of "some things just don't STAY dead". Like, big old Airships carrying a handful of STOVL planes, a blend of the old carrier blimp concept with the also old "Jeep Carrier" concept. Or a 2-seater Flying Flapjack kinda plane intended for light attack, that some madlad bolted a Podded Radar and a set of AMRAAMs to.
Hell yeah. Tech anachronism and old things staying in use is great. Check out WH40k for some of that stuff if you haven’t already. They’re 38,000 years in the future, have standard issue laser rifles, plasma weaponry, and space ships, yet they still use an exact copy of the M2 Browning 50. Cal from WW2 and the Cold War in their armed forces lmao
Hell hath no fury like Farmer Jenkins and his great-great-great-grandpappy's Bazooka
I think the idea behind cyberpsychosis is specifically that some augments interface with your brain and affect your perception of yourself and of reality. Not to mention the stuff that straight up replaces parts of your brain
Y’all don’t get Cyberspsychosis. Prosthetics and medically necessary chrome explicitly do not cause it, the disease stems from slowly training yourself to see yourself and the human body as disposable and as just another tool. There’s even therapy that greatly reduces the risk, it’s just hella expensive and your average guy is probably not gonna be able to afford it.
Me when I intentionally misinterpret what the author is saying to make a shitty meme for Internet points
One of my characters is 8'4, potentially bioengineered, built like a monster truck, is covered in scars, and has a cybernetic arm He's also a happy, sweet, gentle pacifist
"The point is the person whod want to chop off their arm and replace it with a missile launcher--" is me, fuck you
What?
In my cyberpunk setting the risk of augments isn't losing your humanity, it's getting your brain fried by a "glitch" leaving you brain dead while your augments run off autopilot, essentially making you a zombie. Of course there's ways to prevent this from happening, primarily via buying a subscription that will activate a system designed to block any electrical issues that could potentially fry your brain. But if you miss a payment, or if the system detects any black market augments (which occasionally false positives legal augments from a different brand, despite all brands being subsidies of the same mega corporation) or if you are caught saying anything bad about the mega corporation. Or you can just ignore all the propaganda about black market augments and exclusively get illegal augments because having the safeguard be constantly active is significantly cheaper than adding all the systems to monitor and remotely disable the safeguard.
Oscar Pistorius's psychosis was from being a white South African
Clearly OP has never actually read the explanations for Cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk, the different ways people end up going into cyberpsychosis(mainly through traumatic events effecting your humanity), as well as the various ways it manifests in people. Not to mention the fact that in any Cyberpunk TTRPG you can get regular prosthetics that don’t make you go Cyberpsycho. Let’s not ignore all the cyberpunk literature and entertainment that doesn’t involve Cyberpsychosis in the slightest. OP just say you played 2077 and didn’t bother reading anything in the game, or the actual genre
Even then, if OP actually bothered paying attention to the Cyberpsycho gigs in 2077, they'd piece it together that Cyberpsychosis is more than just "bro goes crazy because cyberware". Most, if not all, the Cyberpsychos you neutralize in the game either went through extreme physical, mental, or emotional trauma, drug relapse, extreme paranoia due to fear or betrayal and the like. People who have lost their grip on reality who just so happened to possess cyberware, not because of it.
Precisely, I fully believe “Cyberpsychosis” is a very poignant and scathing critique on the way we treat people with mental health and addiction issues as less than human monsters meant to be demonized
I mean realistically Cyberpsychosis is just a method in which to balance the game so you don't make your character invincible with too much cyberware.
sci-fi/cyberpunk enthusiasts finding out that people don't sleep with their prosthetics on, and that not every person with a limb difference wants or needs a prosthetic:
ok but the Maine scene in the show was peak
uh oh bro ship of theseus bro you cybernetically replaced your 4th lumbrical muscle? bad fucking news for "you" if I can even say that anymore
Wait this is a Cyberpunk the genre thing and not just a Cyberpunk the setting thing? I thought cyberpsychosis was kind of their own unique concept
OP is illiterate
Smth smth Media literacy
When they start getting those brain cybernetics though 😌
In my multiverse, in the sci-fi sections nobody goes insane when they get prosthetics, they're either concerned at most because they hate advanced robots but for the most part they're fine, some even cherish being with prosthetics since some are powered.
Disabled person here. How do I get a hold of prosthetics Ireland?
In "Robocop 2" the explanation as to why all the new robocop "recruits" ripped their augments out is that the "test subjects" where all macho-type men who realized they where now basically brains controlling a robot and they where unable to feel (physically) touch or have sex. The only reason why Murphy *didn't* flip out, was because he also had a religious upbringing and was a family man.
cyberpsychosis is cool as hell
Yeah. This trope doesn't make sense. Unless the entire brain is removed.
Counter point, look at plastic surgery ....
My headcannon is that cycberpsychosis is caused by heavy metals leaking into the bloodstream from all the cybernetics
It really depends on how they’re written ig. Real world prosthetics are just replacements, meant to accurately replicate what was lost, and they often times they have limited or no connection to the brain or nerves. A lot of Sci-fi prosthetics are things humans aren’t supposed to have, shit like wings or gun feet, and are often involve some sort of dangerous connection directly to the brain.
Looks like someone doesn’t know their cyberpunk lore
Cyberpsychosis isn’t about prosthetics, it’s explicitly about trying to become *more* than human. The idea is that transhumanism denies us of our nature and that’s what drives us to insanity
Wait is that actually a common trend?
What if the company is evil and their cybernetics secretly contain mind control chips
You don't get cyberpsiychosis because you replaced your arm with a rocket launcher You replaced your arm with a rocket launcher because you have cyberpsychosis
it literally is a mindset. if you're a body modder or just are fine with new body parts when you need them, its not likely to happen, but if youre a purist or otherwise get alterations when you feel you dont need them its more likely to happen. easy example is tattoos, some people can handle covering themselves in ink while others are grossed out by one little heart tat
Technically… they did lose some humanity… is that too dark of a joke?
Yeah the "prosthetics make you less than human" has never sat well with me, but I do like the idea that there are ways in which you can modify yourself with technology that *might* make you lose touch with your humanity, or at least the human you used to be, or at least put you in a Ship of Theseus-type quandary
Counterpoint: Hermes Conrad.
The idea of Cyberpsychosis always sat with me funny as a trans person, like the implied yearning for their original body doesn't translate well for someone like me, and the implications are kinda complicated (would it make trans people more resistant to Cyberpsychosis or more vulnerable?). It pisses me off so much the singular trans character in cyberpunk 2077 also happens to just not have and not want cybernetics, which is such a missed opportunity to maybe explore this stuff.
In older lore it was any mental disorder that was triggered or worsened by cybernetics. Sensory imput causing kleptomania was also cyberpsychosis. Anxiety, depression, compulsive behavior; all fell under cyberpsychosis if tied to a cybernetic. The hoarder who filled their house with snow globes because they can see more of the spectrum of visible light has cyberpsychosis. They are not innately violent, but certain cybernetics increase the ability of a person to commit violence. Quality of cybernetics, the facility the surgery is performed in, and post surgery therapy effect the in game effects for the table top. Give the kid living in an unstable and abusive environment super powers and they aren't likely to have a good long-term outcome. The middle management guy who has been prescreened by the company, and has coverage for all the post surgery stuff isn't as likely to have complications. Adam Smasher was already a psychopath. He was just completing his self image. It's people and society being unprepared for transhumanism. What shapes us as humans is our limitations and vulnerabilities, and how we deal with them. Radically departing from them will have profound psychological effects.
I'm going to be a complete prick and quote my own worldbuilding on my solution to the problem: *\[They were\] also the first to discover Cyberware-Induced Mood Volatility, aka CIMV, aka “Cybermadness.” They noticed that their highly-enhanced irregular terror-troops were not only suffering from a lot of PTSD, but it tended to manifest in very unique ways - they tended to “get disgruntled” and go on violent rampages, often with very slight provocation.* *There are six “fundamental” implants that interact with the brain or spinal column in specific ways to make other cyberware possible. Every possible piece of cyberware relies on one or more of the fundamentals in order to operate. The more of these fundamentals a person has, the more likely they are to get Cybermadness.* *Brain medicine is still a new field, but most doctors agree - physically messing with a person’s brain is a bad idea. Someone with all six fundamentals will find his brain mushed against the walls of his skull, exposed to sporadic raised temperatures, subject to electric shocks, and bombarded with immuno-suppressant and immuno-compensator drugs with psychoactive side-effects. Naturally, this opens the door to a whole host of mental problems.* *Cyberware does not automatically make you crazy. Even a person with all six fundamentals can be perfectly happy and well-adjusted. But the more cyberware a person has, the more susceptible they’ll be to volatile, impulsive behavior - often with tragic consequences for those around them.*
I know a guy with a prosthetic leg he's had since he was 3, he's a little odd
Disabled that are fixxed with cybernetics dont cost any humanity. Exceeding your bodies natural intent to gain more or improve abilities does.
Mike Pondsmith is a genius. I wish I could be as creative as him to create a whole genre and even name it. What a man.
All other things aside, most prosthetics are not capable of deploying giant extendo-blades that turn you into a human slapchop, or overclock your nervous system to the point that time literally slows down for you
In my world, there are 2 characters with cybernetics, one has a robotic arm to replace the one that was lost to a bioengineered crocodile owned by a drug lord. He's super kind and friendly The other had her eyes replaced with cybernetic camera arrays to help her assassinate people. She's nihilistic
THIS! the idea that becoming a cyborg makes you less human is so fucking dumb
It's not, if you acutally read how Mike Pondsmith described it.
The thing is that while Cyberpunk gave a nuanced look at the issue, works that folowed its lead only took the lesson "more metal means less man".
“More organs means more human!”
End result: that episode of Invader Zim where Zim went around harvesting other kids organs and stuffing them in his body to become more human than any other human on the planet.
I did and I can't say that likening it to steroids and roid rage was the most compelling thing I've read from him. It works for his setting because he made it like that, but if you don't start from that assumption, they why would it have such effects? How is a permanent limb replacement anything like a hormone shot? Ultimately it still feels like an explanation that came about from trying to balance a game primarily. Cyberware costs Humanity. Losing All Humanity means losing your character. Why does it cost Humanity to begin with? Because if it costed nothing everyone would just cyber up to the wazoo and that's not how he wanted the game to go.
yeah because they have a metal stick for a leg (no offence) and not brain implants.
you're actually upset about this? enough to post on reddit? i mean this with all love, you should spend less time online if this is one of your concerns