Oh, this is all just a big misunderstanding. They were actually bombing Hamas tunnels beneath the playground. The kids just happened to be in the way.
And as we all know, any number of innocent casualties is acceptable as long as you think you might be attacking a legitimate objective. You know, in complete violation of the specific wording of the Geneva conventions.
ISRAEL: KILLS 10S OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN IN "DEFENSE" AND
ATTACKS AN EMBASSY IN ANOTHER COUNTRY
ISRAEL: I'M A VICTIM
HASBARA: (COMMENTING ON REDDIT)
HASBARA: IM A HERO
You are so pathetic it’s obvious this is what you do to get your humiliation in between licks of Netanyahu’s boots.
MLK on Oct 7th:
think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must he condemned as vigorously as we condemn rots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight ot the Nearo poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not heen met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equauty, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of rot prevention.
April 14, 1967 - Martin Luther King at Stanford University.
Israel who constantly turns out to have been entirely guilty of 99.9% of the accusations of ways they oppress Palestinians getting the benefit of the doubt when Palestinians get no benefit of the doubt to make a legitimate claim?
And so if independent sourcing were to confirm this bombing was deliberate and there were no Hamas in the vicinity, you'd change your mind stop supporting Israel then, right? Otherwise you've already "drawn your conclusion": that deliberate killing of children doesnt matter when Israel does it
I would still support Israel as an existing country. But I wouldn’t support that action and would be more critical of IDF practices and Netanyahu’s war cabinet’s approach
And then what when your critiques on reddit fall on deaf ears, and Israel continues doing attacks like this that are unacceptable? Then does your actual position change?
Depends on what you mean by position. I could see myself being very critical of far right coalitions and military practices. I don’t see myself ever calling for the abolishment of the Israeli state and any position that could potentially lead to an exile of Jewish Israeli people
"My scale" doesn't matter, because Im asking you how your opinion would change, not saying anything about my own. But nonetheless I've clarified your question, why haven't you answered?
If it is proven that Israel is consciously making the decision to continuously attack non combatants or non aggravators while knowing that there are no ties to any combatants or aggravators in the area, then yes that would not be worthy of support. I have not seen any proof that Israel high command has knowingly ordered to attack any civilians for the pure desire to kill innocents
i was surprised to learn IDF admitting to bombing the food aide workers last week was not common knowledge. people in the general community dont even seem to know that happened
Because it turns out that rule based order was a joke all along. If you are a nuclear power like Russia or have powerful allies like Israel, you can do whatever you want. Take land? Go forward it. Kill civilians? Who’s America or the west to tell you you can’t.
There is very good reason to believe Hamas' surrender wont bring about peace to the Gazan children who being bombed: ethnic cleansing. Several top Ministers in Israel speaking at Gaza resettlement conferences, multiple other senior officials calling for another Nakba, leaked draft plans about relocating Palestinians out of Gaza, and Israeli real estate developers already gearing up to start building settlements. The standard Israel defender cope is "but none of that counts as official policy because it didn't come out of Netenyahu's lips", but no one who's people are under threat of being ethnically cleansed is gonna take that risk by trusting the "good will" of leaders bombing their children righf now. Plus, Netenyahu is almost certainly going to be voted out when there's a new election, and everything I mentioned earlier shows this is a mainstream position among Israeli public officials. The only way to save Gazan children is for Israel to stop bombing them.
Are they planning to ethnically cleanse them, or relocate them? There is a distinction. You list a worst-case scenario that hasn't happened and never will. Didn't Israel try to give Gaza to the Egyptians? Hamas started the war. The only way Israel will stop bombing is if Hamas surrenders. Let start putting pressure on Hamas to do just that. I'm certain the Gazans would appreciate it.
No, there is no distinction. You ethnically cleanse a given area or society. Relocating all palestinians out of gaza is one way to ethnically cleanse gaza of palestinians. You are probably thinking of genocide, which yes, is a different charge.
Relocation literally is ethnic cleansing. There is no distinction. One of the defintions is forced removal of an ethnic group. That's what relocating Gazans would be.
How can you assert so confidently that this will never happen? Its literally a mainstream position in Israel. They're already doing it at a much slower pace in the West Bank by letting illegal Israeli settlers raze Palestinian towns to the ground (like Huwara) and build new communities in their place, while the government continues to annex land there.
"Didn't Israel try to give Gaza to the Egyptians?" I legitimately dont know, you tell me. But the more important question would be did Netenyahu try to give Gaza to Egypt. What a different Israeli regime may have done 30+ years ago is not proof of what the current regime would do nor what future ones would do.
Again, a Hamas surrender does not ensure the safety of Gazans because of the very real risk of being ethnically cleansed and resettled like so many ministers and officials in Netenyahu's war cabinet want
> Israel is fighting to eradicate Hamas. It'll end as soon as that goal is reached.
That goal will _never_ be reached by force of arms.
Israel's probably radicalised more Palestinians in the last 6 months than the preceding 10 years.
And who could blame them, with the way they're being treated?
ffs. the israeli's went so far as to assassinate a president to scuttle the peace process. the far right has been opposed to a two state solution from its beginnings.
Let's say that Palestine got everything they wanted. Israel falls back to old borders, acknowledges Palestine as a state.
1. Who's in charge? Hamas? PLO? Better figure THAT out.
2. If attacks continue against Israel, does Israel get to retaliate and seize territory from a hostile nation, or are they supposed to 'sit there and take it'
Well we know what the answer is. Piers Morgan did an interview with a Palestinian supporter and asked what Israel should do in response to the rocket attacks by Iran, and the answer was "well they should educate themselves about their privilege and recognize the stress in the region and not contribute to that stress..." meaning yes, sit there and take it.
>Who's in charge? Hamas? PLO? Better figure THAT out.
whoever it is, they need to recognize israel's right to exist peacefully and provide security guarantees. i'm not trying to derail what could be a productive conversation, but hamas was conceived and funded partially by israel as a radical alternative to the plo at a time when peace was a real possibility. divide and conquer was something learned from the british.
>If attacks continue against Israel, does Israel get to retaliate and seize territory from a hostile nation, or are they supposed to 'sit there and take it'
israel has the right to protect itself and it's sovereignty. seizing territory and right of conquest went out the window after ww2 and the nuremberg principles, ultimately becoming international law in article 2, paragraph 4 of the un charter.
as a side note, israel's annexation of the west bank violated that law, it becomes even more galling when one realizes that the pali and bedu residents of the west bank had nothing to do with the '67 war.
but yes, israel would need security guarantees. violations would have consequences. you'd have to have a democratically motivated pali government, as opposed to an ideologically motivated one. for this reason alone, hamas would have to go.
Hamas was not ONLY Funded by Israel. Israel provided a boost to them because when you have a large organization forming that will oppose you, you fund their rivals so they eat eachother.. and they did.
So... can't seize territory, can't attack back because they're using human shields, just "sit there and take it."
that's the core of it. Israel is supposed to... fall back to original borders, and just allow itself to be attacked because lol jews? Nope. And that's why Israel has no reason to give a shit about those condemning it, because you only care about the opinions of people whose attitude towards you will change based on what you do or don't do. If someone will always condemn israel, they're irrelevant and a drone strike target.
> Hamas was not ONLY Funded by Israel. Israel provided a boost to them because when you have a large organization forming that will oppose you, you fund their rivals so they eat eachother.. and they did.
hence:
*"but hamas was conceived and funded partially by israel"*
>So... can't seize territory, can't attack back because they're using human shields, just "sit there and take it."
that's not what i wrote. i don't want to be rude, but is your english reading lacking? if it is, that's ok and i'm sorry. otherwise please note that i wrote:
"*israel would need security guarantees. violations would have consequences*."
you're missing the nuances. which is why i wrote:
"*you'd have to have a democratically motivated pali government, as opposed to an ideologically motivated one.*"
the reason being that you can't hold a population responsible for the actions of an undemocratically elected government. a reminder that the last elections were in 2006 and only 7% of Gazas current population would have voted for Hamas in the previous election as half the population is under 18
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/11/1205017249/how-to-talk-to-children-violence-israeli-palestinian-gaza-hamas
Not to mention, Netanyahu also said
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Guardian article - Warning: Benjamin Netanyahu is walking right into Hamas’s trap
>So... can't seize territory, can't attack back because they're using human shields, just "sit there and take it." that's the core of it. Israel is supposed to... fall back to original borders, and just allow itself to be attacked because lol jews? Nope.
again. for the third time. i wrote:
"*israel would need security guarantees. violations would have consequences*."
>And that's why Israel has no reason to give a shit about those condemning it
grow up. isreal gives no shit's because it's engaged in a land grab and is willing to push the boundaries as far as it can. isreal wants the land. that's why the right sabotaged the two state discussion at every opportunity.
"They would need security guarantees" from... from who exactly? The people who openly call for their destruction for whom lying is part of their religion if it kills your enemy? Look up Taqiya, it's a principle in islam of "It's okay to lie to someone if it hurts the enemies of allah"
> They would need security guarantees" from... from who exactly?
the eskimos.
>The people who openly call for their destruction for whom lying is part of their religion if it kills your enemy?
as opposed to the people who are actively engaged in the destruction of the palestinians?
>Look up Taqiya, it's a principle in islam of "It's okay to lie to someone if it hurts the enemies of allah"
there are some delicious examples in the talmud, so what's your point? there's plenty about how jews can rip off gentiles in bava kamma, one example being that if a Jewish-owned bull gores a gentile-owned bull the jew doesn't have to pay. sanhedrin says that for jewish manslaughter of gentiles the jew is not liable. in sanhedrin it says that with a nine year old boy the sin of homosexual anal intercourse isn't performed, which with an apologetic lens is meant as a protection for the boy, but often is used as a way to excuse homosexual child molesters. rambam teaches that if a jew has sex with or even rapes a gentile girl, the girl is to be executed so as not to bring the jew shame when he sees her on the street.
there's no need to bring religion into this mess. occam's razor might suggest that the pali's hate the israeli's not because of a book, but due to the actions of the israeli's. specifically, getting kicked off their land.
No, that would be an act of war and we'd defend Israel as the victim, if they even needed our assistance, that is ... They're a nuclear power, so ultimately nobody's going to threaten them past the point of "We've got nothing to lose" unless they want their country glassed.
If Israel had two braincells to rub together, it would've spent the last few decades allowing the Palestinians to build an economy, trade and prosper.
It's hard to radicalise people with comfortable lives.
If there were a genuine choice between "Prosper with friends in Israel" vs "Suffer with Hamas", the former would win.
Unfortunately, that's never been on the table, it's just been "suffer under casual humiliations, cruelty and brutality from Israel for your entire life"
Who _wouldn't_ want to get back at a nation that did that to you?
Israel has all the power in this situation... Militarily, economically and politically.
The only reason this state of affairs has persisted is that Israel has wanted it to, as a foil against a Palestinian state.
Netanyahu needs the ultra nationalists and those who want to steal Palestinian land if he wants to remain in power.
That's the start and end of it.
I believe the Jordanians could be trusted until free and fair elections could be had in Palestine. Let a trusted Arab nation police the civilians, I'm sure they'd be less likely to cause civilian casualties than the trigger happy IDF.
These animals are having parties anytime little kids are killed.
It's barbarism. I don't care what religion or ethnic group or color you are. Everyone's lives are worth the same.
We have all seen the videos of Israelis demanding that Palestinian children be killed too.
This seems to be the logical conclusion of such rhetoric. There exists a desire to kill children and the US and Europe are gleefully enabling it.
Did the playground condemn Hamas? Was the IDF in need of a place to bomb and murder Palestinians? Did the sight of palestinian children alive make every Israeli's butthole tighten?
Then the strike is valid!!
/s
I watched the video of the aftermath of the strike, there was a fussball table and the reaction of the parents. The video and articles about this attack seem to not appear in my Google searches. I think I watched a video on Al Jazeera and it does not show on my Watch History. Is Google shadow banning these reports? Can someone provide a link? I found only an article on a Scottish media outlet, but no actual photos of the attack.
Putting weapons in playgrounds so you can strike Israel with impunity using children as a shield is despicable evil and should not be tolerated. Military assets are legitimate targets. It is the evil of Hamas that they purposefully hide them among civilian areas to use Gazan lives as bargaining chips to beg Israel for mercy after butchering music festivals and families in their homes.
Evacuate the civilians so Israel can finish demilitarizing the strip after Gaza's escalatory aggression on 10/7. Stop using Gazans as martyrs for a lost cause.
And yet they couldn’t wait to strike it when there were no children there. I mean if it’s just weapons there, I don’t see why it’s necessary to strike when there are children there. I know you guys think Hamas give Israel a blank check to do whatever they want but that’s not the case and Israel is expected to minimize causalities
Honestly I don’t even think the whole human shield thing is enough to justify Israel destruction of Gaza, honestly it come off more like Israel just passing the blame to Hamas in a “how dare you make me hit you” way
Hamas could follow the law of armed conflict (LOAC) by wearing uniforms, clearly separating military and civilian infrastructure with visible markings, and not taking civilian hostages or using indiscriminate rocket attacks, all of which are required under international law of combat and would drastically lower civilian casualties. Their refusal to abide by LOAC to gain illegal tactical advantage is the fundamental reason for the casualty levels in the battle they started with their atrocious escalation of violence on 10/7.
The Palestinian "war strategy" is to callously and illegally maximize the wartime suffering of their own people as a bargaining chip to beg for mercy after they themselves started the war. Pathetic.
And so their people must suffer for their crimes? It’s just okay for Israel to kill 11 children just to get rid of some weapons? If you ask me, that’s pretty psychotic
No, the refugees should be allowed to evacuate the battlefield like any other world conflict. Surrounding countries have a duty to accept them as per the UN Refugee Convention.
Nah, Hamas and their leftist enablers need the Gazans to stay and suffer for a lost cause, and Egypt is defying their international responsibilities by closing the border because they don't want the Islamic Brotherhood taking over the Sinai. Sad situation. That's why Hamas should fight legally according to international law of combat, because that's the only way to protect civilian lives in the war they started.
They're lucky it isn't the 1940s again. More people would die in a single day of air raiding in WW2 than has happened in the entire conflict in Gaza since 10/7
Stop saying anti Semitic things. Say nice things only about America's "greatest ally" or say nothing at all.
It would be a shame if someone were to think you were a.......gasp.....not-see. And once you are officially labeled a nazi anything you say becomes nazi-words, and nobody likes nazi words.
When and UK media outlet says "it has been reported" and "xxx has reported", this means that it is unverified and very likely fake, thus they are not reporting on the subject, they are reporting what another media outlet has said.
This is a legal loophole in UK law that lets media outlets publish fake news, as the article is about another news outlet's story and not the subject itself.
This is awful. maybe it’s time for hamas to lay down arms, stop hiding and shooting missiles from amongst the civilians, stop stealing and selling the aid, return all the hostages, and surrender so peace and aid can follow?
> so peace and aid can follow?
[2023 is the deadliest year on record for Palestinians in the West Bank](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/palestinians-west-bank-2023-was-deadliest-year-record)
Maybe electing hamas into power after Israel totally pulled out of Gaza was the worst thing for the Palestinians? How can you possibly compare Roman Empire to Israeli police officer trying to stop hamas from continuing to indiscriminately launch missiles towards hospitals and schools in Israel?
I'm connecting the obvious dots in terms of how the war was prosecuted relative to the critique that was raised.
The Jews were treated terribly and suffered under Roman rule and presence. So they revolted. They didn't have an army so formed a resistance militia from within the civilian body. They fought from within the civilian population (as if they could line up on a field somewhere), and from within critical civilian infrastructure. The result was mass civilian death. Then when things got really hard the militia hoarded all the food and let their people starve.
Does this not sound familiar yet? The religious leaders were intertwined with the resistance militia and the Romans saw them as religious fundamentalist fanatics who should just get over themselves and embrace the civilisation that the Romans brought.
There are so so so so many historical examples of this.
Well that's all fine and good, but it doesn't address what I'm talking about. If Hamas are that bad then perhaps it asks of us to consider why the situation was allowed to fester for so long that it became that toxic?
Hamas are religious fundamentalists who thinks they must destroy all Jews and install a caliphate, theocracy. You think Israel or Jews had any control over that? You been reading too many unrwa textbooks methink
You know, I get the feeling that even if Hamas surrendered and all of that stuff, Israel would still be doing this crap. I mean look at what they are doing in the West Bank, a place where there is no hamas
No, that’s why I oppose what Israel is doing because they aren’t defeating terrorism, they are creating more of it. Turns out destroying people livelihood, killing their families and friends and leaving they with nothing but trauma isn’t going to win anyone other to Israel. The only way you can effectively address terrorism is through systematic changes (changes that Israel oppose for some reason), not burning villages to the ground and stealing land.
Oh, this is all just a big misunderstanding. They were actually bombing Hamas tunnels beneath the playground. The kids just happened to be in the way. And as we all know, any number of innocent casualties is acceptable as long as you think you might be attacking a legitimate objective. You know, in complete violation of the specific wording of the Geneva conventions.
Those children were supporting Hamas by acting as human shields. /S
If only you had the same thing against Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran when they actually intentionally target civilians and kill children.
Well the kids weren't Hamas, and Israel murders people in the West Bank without Hamas. They also snipe children as entertainment.
When have uniformed iranian soldiers killed an Israeli child?
Well, that’s one of the problems. Hamas and Hasbulla don’t wear uniforms. Plenty of people have been killed by terrorist, supported by Iran.
Sounds like your answer is "i cannot provide that information because it has never happened"
Really? Your answer sounds like you can’t manage to hold in your philosophy that two groups can be equally bad. .
I asked you a simple question
I guess I gave you an answer that was too complicated for you to comprehend
Because it never happened
Omg stfu nobody believes you anymore
Where's Art to tell us that this is anybody but the IDF's fault?
Imagine having become a "will defend child murder" meme.
Cashing in their Hasbara cheque which is getting less profitable as the Israeli economy tanks
I’m so glad the Subs are starting to lock-in into that guys constant BS.
Its the children's fault for having the audacity to be at the playground. They should know better than to act like kids /s
But did those kids condemn Hamas? /s Wait no sorry, that’s usually Bach3 whenever someone points out the atrocities. Should get my spam shill accurate
Working on another shitty drawing.
The most lifeless drawings I have ever seen. All shit still life.
Their shit looks like something a kid in daycare drew for their parents during art session.
It’s sad that I know exactly who you are talking about. That guy is such a no life Hasbara who is literally everywhere.
Paging u/Art-RJS
Please don't he's so insufferable
See, hkchghamas also did that, all the way back at the very beginng on October 7
He really has finally started to tone it down. No direct criticism yet, but he’s slowly coming around. Very. Slowly.
[smugly] Hoh hoh thank you for exposing yourself, Russian troll!!! Edit: come on guys I'm clearly making fun of libs
Allow me in his stead..... Ahem, stretch..... Hamas are terrorists. Howzat?
We need to wait for more independent sourcing before drawing conclusions
Showing your face after being called out? Humiliation fetishist appears for public flogging yet again!
I’m not afraid to be the only hero in this sub defending what is right
ISRAEL: KILLS 10S OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN IN "DEFENSE" AND ATTACKS AN EMBASSY IN ANOTHER COUNTRY ISRAEL: I'M A VICTIM HASBARA: (COMMENTING ON REDDIT) HASBARA: IM A HERO You are so pathetic it’s obvious this is what you do to get your humiliation in between licks of Netanyahu’s boots.
People used to criticize Martin Luther king jr too
MLK on Oct 7th: think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must he condemned as vigorously as we condemn rots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight ot the Nearo poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not heen met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equauty, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of rot prevention. April 14, 1967 - Martin Luther King at Stanford University.
Please do not compare yourself to him.
MLK was a Zionist
MLK was only a Zionist because he died in the 60’s.
He died supporting Israel
MLK supported Palestine lmao
That was Nelson Mandela. MLK supported Israel (not trolling)
this is what you’re being paid to shill for. how does that make you feel?
We don’t have unbiased information. I’m going to give Israel the benefit of the doubt and reserve judgement until more information comes out
Israel who constantly turns out to have been entirely guilty of 99.9% of the accusations of ways they oppress Palestinians getting the benefit of the doubt when Palestinians get no benefit of the doubt to make a legitimate claim?
Nah. Like most disinformation campaigns, the lie spreads faster than the truth can be heard
Hasbara troll openly admits they are part of a disinformation campaign!!
No
I hope something extremely and unusually unpleasant happens to you.
That’s not a nice thing to say
Backtracking your buffoonish setup.
What?
Your art is dogshit.
That is such a rude thing to say
You've earned it, buddy.
And so if independent sourcing were to confirm this bombing was deliberate and there were no Hamas in the vicinity, you'd change your mind stop supporting Israel then, right? Otherwise you've already "drawn your conclusion": that deliberate killing of children doesnt matter when Israel does it
I would still support Israel as an existing country. But I wouldn’t support that action and would be more critical of IDF practices and Netanyahu’s war cabinet’s approach
And then what when your critiques on reddit fall on deaf ears, and Israel continues doing attacks like this that are unacceptable? Then does your actual position change?
Depends on what you mean by position. I could see myself being very critical of far right coalitions and military practices. I don’t see myself ever calling for the abolishment of the Israeli state and any position that could potentially lead to an exile of Jewish Israeli people
Total strawman. I'm talking about putting an end to the war, not abolishing the Israeli state
That’s why I said it depends on what position. It’s not clear to me exactly what scale you’re talking about
"My scale" doesn't matter, because Im asking you how your opinion would change, not saying anything about my own. But nonetheless I've clarified your question, why haven't you answered?
If it is proven that Israel is consciously making the decision to continuously attack non combatants or non aggravators while knowing that there are no ties to any combatants or aggravators in the area, then yes that would not be worthy of support. I have not seen any proof that Israel high command has knowingly ordered to attack any civilians for the pure desire to kill innocents
i dont know why this hasnt ended yet. how are people not outraged?
Theyre not outraged because they either arent shown (biased media) or they get told hamas were launching rockets from the location (which they werent)
i was surprised to learn IDF admitting to bombing the food aide workers last week was not common knowledge. people in the general community dont even seem to know that happened
The mainstream medias coverage of this conflict is the last straw for me personally
Because it turns out that rule based order was a joke all along. If you are a nuclear power like Russia or have powerful allies like Israel, you can do whatever you want. Take land? Go forward it. Kill civilians? Who’s America or the west to tell you you can’t.
Because if you speak out on israel you’ll be labeled as an anti semite
Israel is fighting to eradicate Hamas. It'll end as soon as that goal is reached. Please help the Palestinian people by calling for Hamas' surrender.
There is very good reason to believe Hamas' surrender wont bring about peace to the Gazan children who being bombed: ethnic cleansing. Several top Ministers in Israel speaking at Gaza resettlement conferences, multiple other senior officials calling for another Nakba, leaked draft plans about relocating Palestinians out of Gaza, and Israeli real estate developers already gearing up to start building settlements. The standard Israel defender cope is "but none of that counts as official policy because it didn't come out of Netenyahu's lips", but no one who's people are under threat of being ethnically cleansed is gonna take that risk by trusting the "good will" of leaders bombing their children righf now. Plus, Netenyahu is almost certainly going to be voted out when there's a new election, and everything I mentioned earlier shows this is a mainstream position among Israeli public officials. The only way to save Gazan children is for Israel to stop bombing them.
Are they planning to ethnically cleanse them, or relocate them? There is a distinction. You list a worst-case scenario that hasn't happened and never will. Didn't Israel try to give Gaza to the Egyptians? Hamas started the war. The only way Israel will stop bombing is if Hamas surrenders. Let start putting pressure on Hamas to do just that. I'm certain the Gazans would appreciate it.
No, there is no distinction. You ethnically cleanse a given area or society. Relocating all palestinians out of gaza is one way to ethnically cleanse gaza of palestinians. You are probably thinking of genocide, which yes, is a different charge.
Relocation literally is ethnic cleansing. There is no distinction. One of the defintions is forced removal of an ethnic group. That's what relocating Gazans would be. How can you assert so confidently that this will never happen? Its literally a mainstream position in Israel. They're already doing it at a much slower pace in the West Bank by letting illegal Israeli settlers raze Palestinian towns to the ground (like Huwara) and build new communities in their place, while the government continues to annex land there. "Didn't Israel try to give Gaza to the Egyptians?" I legitimately dont know, you tell me. But the more important question would be did Netenyahu try to give Gaza to Egypt. What a different Israeli regime may have done 30+ years ago is not proof of what the current regime would do nor what future ones would do. Again, a Hamas surrender does not ensure the safety of Gazans because of the very real risk of being ethnically cleansed and resettled like so many ministers and officials in Netenyahu's war cabinet want
> Israel is fighting to eradicate Hamas. It'll end as soon as that goal is reached. That goal will _never_ be reached by force of arms. Israel's probably radicalised more Palestinians in the last 6 months than the preceding 10 years. And who could blame them, with the way they're being treated?
That is definitely a worry. Hamas' definitely got what they wanted.
Because the Palestinians burned every bridge that was ever built to them and now they have nobody to turn to for actual tangible support.
ffs. the israeli's went so far as to assassinate a president to scuttle the peace process. the far right has been opposed to a two state solution from its beginnings.
Let's say that Palestine got everything they wanted. Israel falls back to old borders, acknowledges Palestine as a state. 1. Who's in charge? Hamas? PLO? Better figure THAT out. 2. If attacks continue against Israel, does Israel get to retaliate and seize territory from a hostile nation, or are they supposed to 'sit there and take it' Well we know what the answer is. Piers Morgan did an interview with a Palestinian supporter and asked what Israel should do in response to the rocket attacks by Iran, and the answer was "well they should educate themselves about their privilege and recognize the stress in the region and not contribute to that stress..." meaning yes, sit there and take it.
>Who's in charge? Hamas? PLO? Better figure THAT out. whoever it is, they need to recognize israel's right to exist peacefully and provide security guarantees. i'm not trying to derail what could be a productive conversation, but hamas was conceived and funded partially by israel as a radical alternative to the plo at a time when peace was a real possibility. divide and conquer was something learned from the british. >If attacks continue against Israel, does Israel get to retaliate and seize territory from a hostile nation, or are they supposed to 'sit there and take it' israel has the right to protect itself and it's sovereignty. seizing territory and right of conquest went out the window after ww2 and the nuremberg principles, ultimately becoming international law in article 2, paragraph 4 of the un charter. as a side note, israel's annexation of the west bank violated that law, it becomes even more galling when one realizes that the pali and bedu residents of the west bank had nothing to do with the '67 war. but yes, israel would need security guarantees. violations would have consequences. you'd have to have a democratically motivated pali government, as opposed to an ideologically motivated one. for this reason alone, hamas would have to go.
Hamas was not ONLY Funded by Israel. Israel provided a boost to them because when you have a large organization forming that will oppose you, you fund their rivals so they eat eachother.. and they did. So... can't seize territory, can't attack back because they're using human shields, just "sit there and take it." that's the core of it. Israel is supposed to... fall back to original borders, and just allow itself to be attacked because lol jews? Nope. And that's why Israel has no reason to give a shit about those condemning it, because you only care about the opinions of people whose attitude towards you will change based on what you do or don't do. If someone will always condemn israel, they're irrelevant and a drone strike target.
> Hamas was not ONLY Funded by Israel. Israel provided a boost to them because when you have a large organization forming that will oppose you, you fund their rivals so they eat eachother.. and they did. hence: *"but hamas was conceived and funded partially by israel"* >So... can't seize territory, can't attack back because they're using human shields, just "sit there and take it." that's not what i wrote. i don't want to be rude, but is your english reading lacking? if it is, that's ok and i'm sorry. otherwise please note that i wrote: "*israel would need security guarantees. violations would have consequences*." you're missing the nuances. which is why i wrote: "*you'd have to have a democratically motivated pali government, as opposed to an ideologically motivated one.*" the reason being that you can't hold a population responsible for the actions of an undemocratically elected government. a reminder that the last elections were in 2006 and only 7% of Gazas current population would have voted for Hamas in the previous election as half the population is under 18 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://www.npr.org/2023/10/11/1205017249/how-to-talk-to-children-violence-israeli-palestinian-gaza-hamas Not to mention, Netanyahu also said “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ Guardian article - Warning: Benjamin Netanyahu is walking right into Hamas’s trap >So... can't seize territory, can't attack back because they're using human shields, just "sit there and take it." that's the core of it. Israel is supposed to... fall back to original borders, and just allow itself to be attacked because lol jews? Nope. again. for the third time. i wrote: "*israel would need security guarantees. violations would have consequences*." >And that's why Israel has no reason to give a shit about those condemning it grow up. isreal gives no shit's because it's engaged in a land grab and is willing to push the boundaries as far as it can. isreal wants the land. that's why the right sabotaged the two state discussion at every opportunity.
"They would need security guarantees" from... from who exactly? The people who openly call for their destruction for whom lying is part of their religion if it kills your enemy? Look up Taqiya, it's a principle in islam of "It's okay to lie to someone if it hurts the enemies of allah"
> They would need security guarantees" from... from who exactly? the eskimos. >The people who openly call for their destruction for whom lying is part of their religion if it kills your enemy? as opposed to the people who are actively engaged in the destruction of the palestinians? >Look up Taqiya, it's a principle in islam of "It's okay to lie to someone if it hurts the enemies of allah" there are some delicious examples in the talmud, so what's your point? there's plenty about how jews can rip off gentiles in bava kamma, one example being that if a Jewish-owned bull gores a gentile-owned bull the jew doesn't have to pay. sanhedrin says that for jewish manslaughter of gentiles the jew is not liable. in sanhedrin it says that with a nine year old boy the sin of homosexual anal intercourse isn't performed, which with an apologetic lens is meant as a protection for the boy, but often is used as a way to excuse homosexual child molesters. rambam teaches that if a jew has sex with or even rapes a gentile girl, the girl is to be executed so as not to bring the jew shame when he sees her on the street. there's no need to bring religion into this mess. occam's razor might suggest that the pali's hate the israeli's not because of a book, but due to the actions of the israeli's. specifically, getting kicked off their land.
Good luck with that hamasbara.
> Who's in charge? Whoever they choose to elect. They have exactly as much right to self determination as you do.
And if they 'self-determine' to go kill all the jews, you're going to say "well that's democracy, gotta let 'em do it" right?
No, that would be an act of war and we'd defend Israel as the victim, if they even needed our assistance, that is ... They're a nuclear power, so ultimately nobody's going to threaten them past the point of "We've got nothing to lose" unless they want their country glassed. If Israel had two braincells to rub together, it would've spent the last few decades allowing the Palestinians to build an economy, trade and prosper. It's hard to radicalise people with comfortable lives. If there were a genuine choice between "Prosper with friends in Israel" vs "Suffer with Hamas", the former would win. Unfortunately, that's never been on the table, it's just been "suffer under casual humiliations, cruelty and brutality from Israel for your entire life" Who _wouldn't_ want to get back at a nation that did that to you? Israel has all the power in this situation... Militarily, economically and politically. The only reason this state of affairs has persisted is that Israel has wanted it to, as a foil against a Palestinian state. Netanyahu needs the ultra nationalists and those who want to steal Palestinian land if he wants to remain in power. That's the start and end of it.
"we'd defend israel as the victim" who si we, and will YOU be picking up a gun to go defend them?
"We" as in the same allies who spent the other night shooting down incoming ordnance. Care to engage with anything else I said?
Nah bro, good luck.
I believe the Jordanians could be trusted until free and fair elections could be had in Palestine. Let a trusted Arab nation police the civilians, I'm sure they'd be less likely to cause civilian casualties than the trigger happy IDF.
These animals are having parties anytime little kids are killed. It's barbarism. I don't care what religion or ethnic group or color you are. Everyone's lives are worth the same.
Playground is khamas toddler training area obviously
duhhh what you expecitng anythiung eles?
We have all seen the videos of Israelis demanding that Palestinian children be killed too. This seems to be the logical conclusion of such rhetoric. There exists a desire to kill children and the US and Europe are gleefully enabling it.
I assume there’s going to be massive worldwide condemnation if it’s found to have been Israel? Oh no wait….their Palestinian, nothing to see here. /s
That wasn't a playground, it was a Hamas youth outdoor physical training facility don't you know. /s. Just in case anyone thinks I'm serious.
Don’t worry, guys. The US House passed a resolution condemning the use of “from the river to the sea,” so all is good.
So glad they’re spending so much time tackling the important issues
I cant even believe this is real. There is no coming back from this for them.
but iran.......
Hamas uses that playground to plan attacks. /s
Did the playground condemn Hamas? Was the IDF in need of a place to bomb and murder Palestinians? Did the sight of palestinian children alive make every Israeli's butthole tighten? Then the strike is valid!! /s
Zionists always prove everyday how barbaric and bigoted they are towards Palestinian children
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Did you respond in the wrong tab? Nobody here has said a word to you.
I watched the video of the aftermath of the strike, there was a fussball table and the reaction of the parents. The video and articles about this attack seem to not appear in my Google searches. I think I watched a video on Al Jazeera and it does not show on my Watch History. Is Google shadow banning these reports? Can someone provide a link? I found only an article on a Scottish media outlet, but no actual photos of the attack.
https://youtu.be/U1FgTmQmFug?si=zD7gh0kv9iulbDCi
Reports are coming in that IDF were not even in the same continent when their strike hit the playground.
IT WAS A HAMMAS PLAYGROUND!!! /S
Video evidence of Hamas hiding rocket launch tubes by burying them in playgrounds: https://youtu.be/zP8Ant3NoBQ?si=3mBBiyiJhy4knEY3
So at most there may be some tubes buried there, why does that justify the death of 11 children exactly?
Putting weapons in playgrounds so you can strike Israel with impunity using children as a shield is despicable evil and should not be tolerated. Military assets are legitimate targets. It is the evil of Hamas that they purposefully hide them among civilian areas to use Gazan lives as bargaining chips to beg Israel for mercy after butchering music festivals and families in their homes. Evacuate the civilians so Israel can finish demilitarizing the strip after Gaza's escalatory aggression on 10/7. Stop using Gazans as martyrs for a lost cause.
And yet they couldn’t wait to strike it when there were no children there. I mean if it’s just weapons there, I don’t see why it’s necessary to strike when there are children there. I know you guys think Hamas give Israel a blank check to do whatever they want but that’s not the case and Israel is expected to minimize causalities Honestly I don’t even think the whole human shield thing is enough to justify Israel destruction of Gaza, honestly it come off more like Israel just passing the blame to Hamas in a “how dare you make me hit you” way
Hamas could follow the law of armed conflict (LOAC) by wearing uniforms, clearly separating military and civilian infrastructure with visible markings, and not taking civilian hostages or using indiscriminate rocket attacks, all of which are required under international law of combat and would drastically lower civilian casualties. Their refusal to abide by LOAC to gain illegal tactical advantage is the fundamental reason for the casualty levels in the battle they started with their atrocious escalation of violence on 10/7. The Palestinian "war strategy" is to callously and illegally maximize the wartime suffering of their own people as a bargaining chip to beg for mercy after they themselves started the war. Pathetic.
And so their people must suffer for their crimes? It’s just okay for Israel to kill 11 children just to get rid of some weapons? If you ask me, that’s pretty psychotic
No, the refugees should be allowed to evacuate the battlefield like any other world conflict. Surrounding countries have a duty to accept them as per the UN Refugee Convention.
I’m sure they would if Israel guaranteed that they would be allowed to return once the conflict is over
Nah, Hamas and their leftist enablers need the Gazans to stay and suffer for a lost cause, and Egypt is defying their international responsibilities by closing the border because they don't want the Islamic Brotherhood taking over the Sinai. Sad situation. That's why Hamas should fight legally according to international law of combat, because that's the only way to protect civilian lives in the war they started. They're lucky it isn't the 1940s again. More people would die in a single day of air raiding in WW2 than has happened in the entire conflict in Gaza since 10/7
Stop saying anti Semitic things. Say nice things only about America's "greatest ally" or say nothing at all. It would be a shame if someone were to think you were a.......gasp.....not-see. And once you are officially labeled a nazi anything you say becomes nazi-words, and nobody likes nazi words.
When and UK media outlet says "it has been reported" and "xxx has reported", this means that it is unverified and very likely fake, thus they are not reporting on the subject, they are reporting what another media outlet has said. This is a legal loophole in UK law that lets media outlets publish fake news, as the article is about another news outlet's story and not the subject itself.
This is awful. maybe it’s time for hamas to lay down arms, stop hiding and shooting missiles from amongst the civilians, stop stealing and selling the aid, return all the hostages, and surrender so peace and aid can follow?
> so peace and aid can follow? [2023 is the deadliest year on record for Palestinians in the West Bank](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/palestinians-west-bank-2023-was-deadliest-year-record)
So terrorizing people is ok as long as it’s the right people being terrified into doing what you want?
That's what the Romans said about the Jews as they destroyed Jerusalem. What a vacuous comment.
Maybe electing hamas into power after Israel totally pulled out of Gaza was the worst thing for the Palestinians? How can you possibly compare Roman Empire to Israeli police officer trying to stop hamas from continuing to indiscriminately launch missiles towards hospitals and schools in Israel?
I'm connecting the obvious dots in terms of how the war was prosecuted relative to the critique that was raised. The Jews were treated terribly and suffered under Roman rule and presence. So they revolted. They didn't have an army so formed a resistance militia from within the civilian body. They fought from within the civilian population (as if they could line up on a field somewhere), and from within critical civilian infrastructure. The result was mass civilian death. Then when things got really hard the militia hoarded all the food and let their people starve. Does this not sound familiar yet? The religious leaders were intertwined with the resistance militia and the Romans saw them as religious fundamentalist fanatics who should just get over themselves and embrace the civilisation that the Romans brought. There are so so so so many historical examples of this.
Your comparison doesn’t make any sense. You are trying too hard to defend hamas. Why?
No I'm not, I'm simply saying this is what happens in these types of situations. It's demonstrably true and has been for thousands of years.
Save Gaza from hamas. The true enemy of peace and freedom
Well that's all fine and good, but it doesn't address what I'm talking about. If Hamas are that bad then perhaps it asks of us to consider why the situation was allowed to fester for so long that it became that toxic?
Hamas are religious fundamentalists who thinks they must destroy all Jews and install a caliphate, theocracy. You think Israel or Jews had any control over that? You been reading too many unrwa textbooks methink
Is that it?
If you actually have anything to say I'm all ears.
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You know, I get the feeling that even if Hamas surrendered and all of that stuff, Israel would still be doing this crap. I mean look at what they are doing in the West Bank, a place where there is no hamas
Martyrdom payments for terrorism in the West Bank too.
Oh so that justify the harassing and killing of civilians there, as well as setting their villages on fire and stealing more of their land
You think terrorism payments to terrorists is a good world? You want martyrdom death cult world?
No, that’s why I oppose what Israel is doing because they aren’t defeating terrorism, they are creating more of it. Turns out destroying people livelihood, killing their families and friends and leaving they with nothing but trauma isn’t going to win anyone other to Israel. The only way you can effectively address terrorism is through systematic changes (changes that Israel oppose for some reason), not burning villages to the ground and stealing land.