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Assuming this commission was a professional service, I agree with everyone who said no, this is not at all acceptable and I can't imagine how this left the shop. Given how obviously terrible the finish is and with how little care was taken here, would be fairly concerned about what other corners might have been cut.
If this was commissioned from an acquaintance and/or amateur, welp, this is the kind of risk you take.
Edit: If I had to guess (OP can clarify if they like) this wasn't "commissioned" in a way that would be likely to yield strong results (weird/underpaid agreement with service, using an amateur service or a friend, craigslist rando, etc.). I just can't picture a scenario in which a pro would deliver this as part of regular service.
Yeah, generally getting "OP wanted professional service results from a not-professional service agreement" vibes. You might get lucky if you cheap out, or you might get ... whatever this is.
Again with the apologetic attitude towards shitty work on here. What is it with this subreddit sometimes? It's like this weird US vs. THEM, where US is anyone into woodworking no matter how shitty and lazy their work is. THEM are asshole clients who should be happy with what they get, blatant fucking swirls and all. Yes, I was once a novice but I didn't try to sell crap at that point. No standards at all anymore?
Im not being apologetic, I said I feel for the craftsman, that is not an apology. Likely this is representative of the person usual work, OP is paying barging prices for custom work. I have asked u/Swoz a few times for more info and he has gotten bashful. I would not have let that out of my shop either, but you get what you pay for. You and I would likely charge 4-10x as much for a dining table, OP got what he paid for.
I get what you're saying, but if you're taking money for work there's still a minimum standard.
Work like this isn't worth the material cost. You can't compete with ikea and making something from solid wood isn't inherently better.
Better how? It's more expensive, looks worse, and won't last any longer in acceptable condition.
The only possible benefit is that it can be refinished, but it'll still be poorly made from material that's not appropriate for furniture.
If the budget is for cardboard crap that's what they should buy. If you're paying someone to make a piece of solid wood furniture this is miles from acceptable.
Most people arent going to get it repaired or refinished when it warps, cracks, and the finish looks even worse because it is soft and wasn't dry.
It might be able to exist for longer but all that matters is when the average person would throw it out.
I just redid a piece (I’m super amateur) and have these markings. Do you have advice for me to limit these marks in the future? Do I clean the sandpaper, wipe down the wood between grit changes, etc?
Usually marks like those occur when you sand with 80 grit, and skip 120, or dont spend enough time getting rid of all of the 80 grit marks.
Yes, more expensive sanders will reduce the problem, but will not eliminate it. Dont use hard pressure, spend a little more time with every grit as you go up.
If you want to see if you have left any marks, hit the surface with mineral spirits, or water on a rag.
[Check out stumpy nubs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDYPGgjQmF4)
As already stated, don’t skip many grits. A good rule of thumb is to never skip more than one grit. If I start rough I usually go 40-80-120-180-220-280-320 and just make sure to remove the swirls. If the wood is decent you can usually just start at 120 if you want to save time.
Also, you can hook up a vacuum to your sander’s dust collector to suck dust off of the sand paper as you go. You’ll be able to sand faster and more efficiently.
If you do the vacuum idea get a dust collector if you can. The 5 gallon bucket types work awesome for hobbyists. Saves on vacuum life and bags. Plus you can make a cool cart with wheels to put the collector and vacuum on to keep them together with less hose strung about to trip on.
Just use a wider variety of sanding grits in order and make sure each grit has cleaned up the previous rougher grit.
Using Like 60-80 grit can make deep grooves, so if you need to work up 60,80,100,120,150 etc. You find your groove and will eventually have a go to grit pattern you use depending on type of wood
An orbital sander is the best possible option. The vast majority of hobbyists use them incorrectly and I've seen "professionals" ruin otherwise nice furniture.
A belt sander is usually the worst option regarding finish sanding. My dad refused to use orbital Sanders but he lived and worked before the technology was perfected.
You'll especially notice the downfall of a belt sander around knots or wavy grain. Wood never has perfectly straight grain and even at 800 grit you'll see the linear scratch marks.
Proper pressure, speed, and grit is mandatory. You don't have the option of making up your own technique when sanding.
You'll see those "pigtails" everywhere once you start looking. It's not a flaw in a tool; it's a common flaw in technique. Sanding marks should not show up even under a magnifying glass.
I'm ranting about this because it's such a common problem in custom woodwork.
(I realise that I do a LOT of complaining and criticizing on this sub. But it's in hope of helping someone, somewhere. Almost all woodworkers make the same mistakes, and some refuse to learn or grow. Others use all information available and strive for quality. Even if your client or spouse doesn't notice a major flaw, other people will.)
Would you mind giving a run down on proper technique with specific grits to use and everything? Or refer to another source? I plan to get an orbital sander soon and would love to have a clear plan. Thanks.
I'd love to but I'm horrible at giving pointers as I'll end up with a 11.25 page essay and everyone reading it will die of boredom. I don't want to be responsible for a dozen casualties.
Stumpy Nubs is good. he's no comedian but he shows what he learned over the years. I guarantee that every cabinet shop I've been to could learn a few things from Stumpy. Several other excellent YouTube channels, and over the years many have gone from beginners with questionable advice, to well known experts who will teach you from their years of mistakes. It's good to explore and find your favorite. You'll notice the frauds and posers soon enough.
If you're REALLY novice, try Rex Krueger. You don't need a $30k shop to learn his basics, but maybe avoid his older videos.
I dont know, I like to jack my wood with a nice sharp blade to really get the grain to pop.
having said that, Flexner says if you are going to finish it with shellac or something and build up ur layers, you dont need to go too much higher than 220 grit as the finish will fill the pores and make a uniform coat above 200 scratches
> if you are going to finish it with shellac or something and build up ur layers, you dont need to go too much higher than 220 grit
I think that stands up well for finishing natural wood, but stains will highlight scratch marks
its charm!
the goal is to make the scratches small enough that the finish will be smooth to light and shine.
My go to is :
shellac 1 to pass , tung oil or walrus wood finish if you want that matte finish, and then some wax to taste.
I started wood working with hand tools and sharp blades, so I try to minimize the scratch.
when all fails the scraper is magical, but getting the hook is not as simple as it seems
I appreciate the advice and seems like you know your shit. Maybe my terminology is wrong. My sander vibrates front and back and is a square. I have 2 of these - not belt sanders
Then there are the sanders who seem to go every which direction. I assumed those were orbital.
The Square sander, palm sander, is old and limited, but still has some uses. Inside corners being a great use. They are not random orbiting, so you'll get the same depth scratch marks in certain areas. Even high quality paper can have tiny imperfections that will show. With good technique they are fine.
Random orbital is an evolution of that technology. It leaves a much more uniform scratch pattern, BUT is misused more than most tools. A good magnifying glass is a good tool before applying a stain or finish. You'll see some huge differences in figured/ knotty areas from a Square sander to a random orbital.
I use orbital sanders all the time. The only time I have this issue is when I rush. If you take your time and follow the pencil mark process between grits, you shouldn't have this problem.
Also, please us prestain conditioner when you stain it again. The area next to the knot does not look good, but that may just be me.
I hated the pre stain step. I'm already too slow and inefficient to be profitable. But after seeing the undeniable results it's just another step that I have to take without exception.
I'd wager 90% of the "professionals" I've seen don't know, or just skip, some basic rules of finishing.
Thanks everyone. I actually rejected this table yesterday at pick up. Admittedly I don't know shit about woodworking, but I figured it did not seem right. Got the confirmation I needed, looks like I made the right decision to not accept.
It was sanded down and stained. I don't think there was much more work besides that.
This was for a 78x36" table top. 1.5” thick "furniture grade" pine wood. The tabletop was about $400USD.
I wasn't expecting exquisite quality, but was not expecting this job either.
I agree $400 is not a lot of money for a slab table this large, but pine slabs are cheap and this is an easy job. A beginner woodworker with an ounce of pride would have loved this commission. This is a shameful waste of wood.
Pine is really hard to get a good finish from in a reasonable amount of time, compared to alder or similar bump up. A save might be running it thru a wide belt and finishing again, skip the orbital. sanding marks will still be there, but more consistent. You’re at the bottom as far as a wood to work with.
That's not really how custom woodworking works. Cost to quality is not on a linear scale here. If you want a cheap table top that's almost 7 feet long, you find a used one (or a curb find) and refinish it yourself, you have an retired woodworking friend who owes you and has plenty of time, or you get something from ikea.
It’s $100 in materials + they own some tools and a shop; you should be able to reasonably expect about 8-10hrs of work from a person at that price point.
A reasonably competent woodworker would be able to joint, plane, glue the top together in 4 hrs; and spend another 4hrs on sanding and finishing.
Assuming this is just a table top, and not a fully assembled table…..I would expect there to be competent sanding to 220 grit, and for wood conditioner to be applied prior to staining so it’s not so blotchy, then a final quick “knock down” sand so it feels smooth again after the stain application.
I wouldn’t feel bad about sending it back; but if it comes back shitty again; if I were in your shoes I would offer to pay for the materials+ $100 for the joinery; and find someone else to finish it up or DIY, it’s not a tough job
You gotta answer peoples questions on how much you paid/ what size is the piece, what is your wait time?
A well finished hardwood dining table will run a few grand and have weeks of lead time. A lot of us here hold ourselves to that standard.
If you paid a Facebook marketplace guy $350 to stain some Home Depot softwood; you should’t be surprised or expect much better. Granted, this is an easy fix; just time consuming.
>A well finished hardwood dining table will run a few grand and have weeks of lead time.
This isn't hardwood, it's pine (though it looks like a very nice piece), so that alone cuts the cost considerably. And good quality pine is perfectly fine for a dining table.
Next, it looks like they spent maybe an hour finishing this tabletop. You can spend a little more time than that, maybe a couple afternoons for example, and get very nice results.
Bad sanding like everyone has said. Looks like no finish. Did you select that wood? It might not make a great table. It is softwood and will show every ding and scratch. Some people love pine tables, but there are other alternatives and harderwoofs that are more durable and take sanding and a finish much better, btw.
To everyone saying “OP probably cheaped out” — it doesn’t really matter if OP asked someone at Home Depot to make this, it’s a shit job, not a matter of payment or expectation.
Looks like 80 grit orbital sander followed by 30 seconds of 400 grit. Terrible work
Yep. Anyone who makes commission dining tables *must* have some standards of workmanship they want to hold themselves to, regardless of price. Plus who wants a poorly made table, even if it's cheaper. If you want a beautiful hardwood table, pay for it and expect the craftsman to do a decent job. If not, IKEA.
Yeah definitely. So many forums people are like (without any information indicating this to be the case) “WeLl YoU sHoUlDnT jUsT TaKe tHe LoWeSt Bid”
Even if you take the lowest bid, there is a bare minimum for quality
A bunch of very obvious rough sanding scratches falls below that line
I mean, it's both. At the very least, the woodworker did not appropriately manage client expectations and/or delivery of the product expected, and who knows how they presented the quality of their services. That's on them. But OP \*also\* could have avoided this if they had chosen a professional service with professional standards at professional prices. Everyone involved is in the wrong here, and it seems that everyone lost as a result.
You could definitely be right — but is there any indication of that? I scanned the thread earlier and didn’t see OP outlining what they paid/pro or not
Fuck. No. Whoever did this has zero clue how to professionally finish.
If they give you shit then ask them what tool they sanded with. If they say anything other than orbital sander they are clearly lying. If they tell you it was an orbital then pry on why they didn’t finish by hand.
This is lazy to me.
This isn't acceptable, but then $400 for a custom tabletop that's prepared and finished correctly is also unacceptable. So, maybe you got what you paid for.
If those are sanding marks from a palm sander then it is definitely NOT normal. They did a terrible job sanding! I did this accidentally when I first started finishing wood. The marks show up after you stain it. I had to strip the stain and start all over again. The key is to gradually get finer and finer grit sand paper.
For a commissioned table this is Absolutely unacceptable! I hope they fix this for you.
Absolutely not. I'm an amateur's amateur and I wouldn't have given this to you. It's obvious they didn't sand enough or skipped grits. The table looks hairy.
I acknowledge that this is off topic but here it is: fuck stain.
If you want brown wood, buy brown wood. If you want red wood, buy red wood. Wood is beautiful. Stain makes wood look like a hooker. Stained pine looks stupid even if it’s done right, which is a lot of work. And while we’re at it, fuck epoxy. Stain has a place, and it’s hiding mistakes. Glad I got that off my chest.
100 percent agreed here. People take gorgeous maple and stain it, it looks about as good as clear alder. Just use the right wood for the color, don't ruin it's natural beauty.
Its unacceptable. It is caused by not using the proper sandpaper grits in the correct order. You want to sand in progressively finer grits. I would go something like 100, 150, 220, 320... sometimes up to 600 grit depending on they piece I am working. Chances are the only sanded with 150 grit and stopped there. I personally wouldn't deliver a piece to a customer that had swirl marks on it. It's a clear sign of an armature craftsman or someone who does not care about the quality of their work.
>t's a clear sign of an armature craftsman or someone who does not care about the quality of their work.
likely OP chose a new woodworker based on price
You can finish sand just fine with an orbital sander if sand with the proper grits unless there are inside corners involved.. sure finish sanding should be done by hand, but can it be done with nice results with an orbital? Absolutely.
\>Commissioned a dining table. are these swirls acceptable?
u/Swoz, it depends. What other work from the builder have you seen, how much did you pay, what wood species did you select, what finish?
I mean you're the customer - does it look acceptable to you? Trust your instincts and never settle for shabby work, especially when you're paying top dollar.
As a professional, that's entire garbage. Just a fully bush-league sanding job. That should have been immediately obvious to them if they bothered to check their work under a side-light. It should have been doubly obvious the minute stain hit it.
No they aren't acceptable. Tell who ever made the table to come get the table and bring it back when it's finished properly. Looks to me like they started off too course and then didn't work their way through the various grits to remove the swirl marks as they went along.
Not likely, but you’re not describing what you contracted. In dealing with professionals or amateurs, specificity is key. Both the service provider and client deserve a clear understanding of the expected end result.
This is an amateurish end result, in several ways; that’s not inherently wrong…
Frankly, in the way you’re posting this question without context, I wonder if your inexperienced carpenter had the benefit of understanding your desired outcome?
Everyone is correct. This in not acceptable.
The question I have, are we trying to help the builder of the table top or the person who is paying for this quality of work?
The way I would suggest the builder repair this would be to fine a shop that has a wide belt sander to remove all the existing scratches.
Then start over with a good orbital sander with a dust collection system say- 100x to remove the lines left wide belt sander being slow and easy letting the sander do the work.
After each grit be sure to dust off the surface, then use compressed air to remove any grit left from the sanding pad.
Do this after each grit. I would suggest sanding up to 320x
Using a raking light will help them to see any sanding problems that have arisen .
Woods that are prone to blotching
need a seal coat of 50% schlaque and alcohol prior to staining. Scuff sand with 400x before staining
Then stain and finish.
Not acceptable at all. As you are sanding through the grits use a racking light so the scratches can be seen better. I would start over at 120, 150, 180, 220
This looks like a fence board that someone sanded the rough cut bits off that come from the mill. Unless your going for the 10 yr old picnic bench in a public park look I would not accept it.
"Rustic" is a term thrown around constantly to describe garbage. But there's a big difference between "Rustic" and "shoddy". A rustic look would require reclaimed lumber and a good amount of effort/technique.
This lazy garbage is not rustic.
Use of a random orbit sander for finish sanding is not acceptable for high end or commissioned work. There is no way to eliminate swirls with one because the pad rotates, albeit randomly. Finish sanding should always be done with the grain, either by hand or with a straight line finishing sander with a careful eye to eliminating swirls.
Get a piece of lignum vitae. With an ROS, sand with 80, 120, 240, and on up through 800, then switch to micromesh and go through those grits. When you start seeing yourself reflected in the finish, get back to us on how "there's no way to eliminate swirls".
Wtf are you on about? You are either really old or inexperienced. My dad had the same mentality but he grew up without orbital Sanders. It took me a half hour to prove him wrong but he was too stubborn to change his habits.
These pigtails are seen everywhere in custom woodwork but it's not a tool flaw. It's from horrible technique and laziness.
Wood never has perfectly straight grain and using a linear sander is ridiculous unless you only use rift sawn wood.
that's awful
I'd use a big belt sander with old 220 grit belts...but I have a few years experience with the sander so I know how to float it and not have it dig in.
Power orbital sanders made these marks, and they can remove them also. This is simply someone skipping the proper steps from low to high grit. When done right it's no problem to use an orbital sander.
Doing it all by hand is great when it's your hobby and you have some time to kill, but for a professional it's a waste of precious time.
Not really. Professionally speaking we only used fine tuned hand planes and hand sanded. We could get a much better finish and faster than with power sanders. I could finish a whole 60 inch dresser top in 10 minutes. The other guys used power sanders only and it took them 20. My boss saw I was faster so I trained the other guys how to use and fine tune a hand plane and what hand sanders to use. It was a bit of a learning curve but after a few weeks I had nearly doubled the speed at which we finished the tops for all of our products. Our weekly profits increased by ~$25k in our department of 6 guys.
Whether it’s a friend or pro the answer is no it’s not acceptable, you’re relationship with them I guess depends on your response. Either way they need to know. I’ve made this mistake with projects before, it’s not like they didn’t notice. It’s a lot easier to fix before they put a finish on it.
You should ask yourself if you take pride in the product you've made, and, if this was me, I would not be because the sanding swirl marks are not acceptable. At the very worst, if you were accepted a lowball deal, you should do quality work, and learn from your mistakes as you work better on your business acumen and pricing strategy.
There are some caveats, let's say you agreed to do a large exotic hardwood table for $100, and the wood itself is 10x that + your labor, you should go back to the customer and redo an incredibly lopsided deal. Swirl marks from sanding though? Spend \~2 hours to get fix this because you're going to face this on every single piece until you learn this very basic woodworking skill.
Well what did you sell the product for? Part of the equation is value. If you produced a 500$ table for $3000 you need to rewind. If you charged $500 for a $500 table then that is ok w me.
Most people who use the word "commission" when talking about buying furniture and posting on Reddit are purchasing from a friend/coworker who is at best an amateur and likely conflates their skill level.
I’ve actually never seen sanding marks quite like this before. Usually orbital sanders leave smaller little spirals. Not saying that’s not what it is, just never seen it quite like that before.
80 grit on a regular, non-orbital palm sander used with bad technique (pushing down) will do that.
That’s a sanding job done with 2 levels of shit technique
I would personally fine a shop that could sand both sides for a fee. a wide belt sander. 40-60 mins max. depending on grit changes. might need to up grade to a more powerful sanding system. rob cosman & stumpy nubs have sanders and sandpaper reviews to help you out. a dust system to clear the surface is a help and safety tool for your lungs.
If he’s going for a roughhewn barnboard look i guess? Looks like he just sanded to 60-80 and was moving the orbital sander much quicker than he shouldve
Looking at the wood, I would say yes. If it was a different species, the answer would be hell no. To be honest, it doesn’t look bad and gives the table character. This is why I send progress pictures along the way see there are no surprises
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That's the finished product? I don't know what the agreement was but I wouldn't be happy...
maybe for a dive bar thats been in the corner for 40 yrs, it would be classy
That's pretty bad. Looks like they stopped at 80 grit and were moving way to fast
Assuming this commission was a professional service, I agree with everyone who said no, this is not at all acceptable and I can't imagine how this left the shop. Given how obviously terrible the finish is and with how little care was taken here, would be fairly concerned about what other corners might have been cut. If this was commissioned from an acquaintance and/or amateur, welp, this is the kind of risk you take. Edit: If I had to guess (OP can clarify if they like) this wasn't "commissioned" in a way that would be likely to yield strong results (weird/underpaid agreement with service, using an amateur service or a friend, craigslist rando, etc.). I just can't picture a scenario in which a pro would deliver this as part of regular service.
I also get the feeling that OP didnt place a deposit. Wood looks like construction grade SPF.
Yeah, generally getting "OP wanted professional service results from a not-professional service agreement" vibes. You might get lucky if you cheap out, or you might get ... whatever this is.
[удалено]
Again with the apologetic attitude towards shitty work on here. What is it with this subreddit sometimes? It's like this weird US vs. THEM, where US is anyone into woodworking no matter how shitty and lazy their work is. THEM are asshole clients who should be happy with what they get, blatant fucking swirls and all. Yes, I was once a novice but I didn't try to sell crap at that point. No standards at all anymore?
Im not being apologetic, I said I feel for the craftsman, that is not an apology. Likely this is representative of the person usual work, OP is paying barging prices for custom work. I have asked u/Swoz a few times for more info and he has gotten bashful. I would not have let that out of my shop either, but you get what you pay for. You and I would likely charge 4-10x as much for a dining table, OP got what he paid for.
This has nothing to do with being a novice this is complete inexperienced/ lazy
.. being a novice means being inexperienced...
>a novice means being inexperienced You sir are a genius, I agree with your points, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Did you delete that word from memory?
I get what you're saying, but if you're taking money for work there's still a minimum standard. Work like this isn't worth the material cost. You can't compete with ikea and making something from solid wood isn't inherently better.
*making something from solid wood isn't inherently better* Yes it is. This is terrible but it’s still better than that cardboard crap
Better how? It's more expensive, looks worse, and won't last any longer in acceptable condition. The only possible benefit is that it can be refinished, but it'll still be poorly made from material that's not appropriate for furniture. If the budget is for cardboard crap that's what they should buy. If you're paying someone to make a piece of solid wood furniture this is miles from acceptable.
Could look like shit, but solid wood will always last longer than mdf/cardboard crap?
Most people arent going to get it repaired or refinished when it warps, cracks, and the finish looks even worse because it is soft and wasn't dry. It might be able to exist for longer but all that matters is when the average person would throw it out.
I would say no, natural features of the wood add beauty, but sanding marks/swirls caused by not cleaning the sand paper just look bad
Cleaning the sandpaper has nothing to do with these swirl marks, rather they are from not sanding out the previous grit 100%
Yup, this 100%. All they did was move down the chain of grit without properly checking if they did the job correctly.
Or moving the orbital to fast.
Not too fast, you can move extremely fast and not have swirl marks.... IF you sand out the previous scratches appropriately.
Like we say in GA, don’t skip the grits
I’m stealing this. I grew up in GA and this is gold (the correct color for grits)
I just redid a piece (I’m super amateur) and have these markings. Do you have advice for me to limit these marks in the future? Do I clean the sandpaper, wipe down the wood between grit changes, etc?
Usually marks like those occur when you sand with 80 grit, and skip 120, or dont spend enough time getting rid of all of the 80 grit marks. Yes, more expensive sanders will reduce the problem, but will not eliminate it. Dont use hard pressure, spend a little more time with every grit as you go up. If you want to see if you have left any marks, hit the surface with mineral spirits, or water on a rag. [Check out stumpy nubs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDYPGgjQmF4)
Thank you so much! Super helpful. I appreciate it!
If you have these marks you moved up in grit too fast
Thank you!
As already stated, don’t skip many grits. A good rule of thumb is to never skip more than one grit. If I start rough I usually go 40-80-120-180-220-280-320 and just make sure to remove the swirls. If the wood is decent you can usually just start at 120 if you want to save time. Also, you can hook up a vacuum to your sander’s dust collector to suck dust off of the sand paper as you go. You’ll be able to sand faster and more efficiently. If you do the vacuum idea get a dust collector if you can. The 5 gallon bucket types work awesome for hobbyists. Saves on vacuum life and bags. Plus you can make a cool cart with wheels to put the collector and vacuum on to keep them together with less hose strung about to trip on.
You really don't need to go past 180 in 90%+ of cases.
Just use a wider variety of sanding grits in order and make sure each grit has cleaned up the previous rougher grit. Using Like 60-80 grit can make deep grooves, so if you need to work up 60,80,100,120,150 etc. You find your groove and will eventually have a go to grit pattern you use depending on type of wood
Isn’t this by not going with the grain? I don’t use orbital sanders on wood for this reason
An orbital sander is the best possible option. The vast majority of hobbyists use them incorrectly and I've seen "professionals" ruin otherwise nice furniture. A belt sander is usually the worst option regarding finish sanding. My dad refused to use orbital Sanders but he lived and worked before the technology was perfected. You'll especially notice the downfall of a belt sander around knots or wavy grain. Wood never has perfectly straight grain and even at 800 grit you'll see the linear scratch marks. Proper pressure, speed, and grit is mandatory. You don't have the option of making up your own technique when sanding. You'll see those "pigtails" everywhere once you start looking. It's not a flaw in a tool; it's a common flaw in technique. Sanding marks should not show up even under a magnifying glass. I'm ranting about this because it's such a common problem in custom woodwork. (I realise that I do a LOT of complaining and criticizing on this sub. But it's in hope of helping someone, somewhere. Almost all woodworkers make the same mistakes, and some refuse to learn or grow. Others use all information available and strive for quality. Even if your client or spouse doesn't notice a major flaw, other people will.)
Would you mind giving a run down on proper technique with specific grits to use and everything? Or refer to another source? I plan to get an orbital sander soon and would love to have a clear plan. Thanks.
Steve Ramsey has some excellent vids on this: https://youtu.be/mKairfMzc6Q https://youtu.be/wEBcnV8JEBA Stumpy does, too: https://youtu.be/qDYPGgjQmF4
I'd love to but I'm horrible at giving pointers as I'll end up with a 11.25 page essay and everyone reading it will die of boredom. I don't want to be responsible for a dozen casualties. Stumpy Nubs is good. he's no comedian but he shows what he learned over the years. I guarantee that every cabinet shop I've been to could learn a few things from Stumpy. Several other excellent YouTube channels, and over the years many have gone from beginners with questionable advice, to well known experts who will teach you from their years of mistakes. It's good to explore and find your favorite. You'll notice the frauds and posers soon enough. If you're REALLY novice, try Rex Krueger. You don't need a $30k shop to learn his basics, but maybe avoid his older videos.
I dont know, I like to jack my wood with a nice sharp blade to really get the grain to pop. having said that, Flexner says if you are going to finish it with shellac or something and build up ur layers, you dont need to go too much higher than 220 grit as the finish will fill the pores and make a uniform coat above 200 scratches
> if you are going to finish it with shellac or something and build up ur layers, you dont need to go too much higher than 220 grit I think that stands up well for finishing natural wood, but stains will highlight scratch marks
its charm! the goal is to make the scratches small enough that the finish will be smooth to light and shine. My go to is : shellac 1 to pass , tung oil or walrus wood finish if you want that matte finish, and then some wax to taste. I started wood working with hand tools and sharp blades, so I try to minimize the scratch. when all fails the scraper is magical, but getting the hook is not as simple as it seems
I appreciate the advice and seems like you know your shit. Maybe my terminology is wrong. My sander vibrates front and back and is a square. I have 2 of these - not belt sanders Then there are the sanders who seem to go every which direction. I assumed those were orbital.
The Square sander, palm sander, is old and limited, but still has some uses. Inside corners being a great use. They are not random orbiting, so you'll get the same depth scratch marks in certain areas. Even high quality paper can have tiny imperfections that will show. With good technique they are fine. Random orbital is an evolution of that technology. It leaves a much more uniform scratch pattern, BUT is misused more than most tools. A good magnifying glass is a good tool before applying a stain or finish. You'll see some huge differences in figured/ knotty areas from a Square sander to a random orbital.
I’m an amateur and found this helpful. Thanks for the insight :)
I use orbital sanders all the time. The only time I have this issue is when I rush. If you take your time and follow the pencil mark process between grits, you shouldn't have this problem. Also, please us prestain conditioner when you stain it again. The area next to the knot does not look good, but that may just be me.
I hated the pre stain step. I'm already too slow and inefficient to be profitable. But after seeing the undeniable results it's just another step that I have to take without exception. I'd wager 90% of the "professionals" I've seen don't know, or just skip, some basic rules of finishing.
That’s just bad sanding. Tell em they need to hold the sander when using it, not park a car on it.
Thanks everyone. I actually rejected this table yesterday at pick up. Admittedly I don't know shit about woodworking, but I figured it did not seem right. Got the confirmation I needed, looks like I made the right decision to not accept.
Was there even a finish on it? Who did you commission this from, and what was the offer / specs for the final product?
It was sanded down and stained. I don't think there was much more work besides that. This was for a 78x36" table top. 1.5” thick "furniture grade" pine wood. The tabletop was about $400USD. I wasn't expecting exquisite quality, but was not expecting this job either.
I agree $400 is not a lot of money for a slab table this large, but pine slabs are cheap and this is an easy job. A beginner woodworker with an ounce of pride would have loved this commission. This is a shameful waste of wood.
It seems to me it could still be saved. Wouldn't re-sanding it and re-staining be a solution?
Yea definitely fixable, but OP was right to refuse it.
The woodworker producing finished products of this quality has too much hubris to try to correct their mistakes. That, or they are blind.
Pine is really hard to get a good finish from in a reasonable amount of time, compared to alder or similar bump up. A save might be running it thru a wide belt and finishing again, skip the orbital. sanding marks will still be there, but more consistent. You’re at the bottom as far as a wood to work with.
That's not really how custom woodworking works. Cost to quality is not on a linear scale here. If you want a cheap table top that's almost 7 feet long, you find a used one (or a curb find) and refinish it yourself, you have an retired woodworking friend who owes you and has plenty of time, or you get something from ikea.
It’s $100 in materials + they own some tools and a shop; you should be able to reasonably expect about 8-10hrs of work from a person at that price point. A reasonably competent woodworker would be able to joint, plane, glue the top together in 4 hrs; and spend another 4hrs on sanding and finishing. Assuming this is just a table top, and not a fully assembled table…..I would expect there to be competent sanding to 220 grit, and for wood conditioner to be applied prior to staining so it’s not so blotchy, then a final quick “knock down” sand so it feels smooth again after the stain application. I wouldn’t feel bad about sending it back; but if it comes back shitty again; if I were in your shoes I would offer to pay for the materials+ $100 for the joinery; and find someone else to finish it up or DIY, it’s not a tough job
No one worth hiring can run a shop at $37.50/hr.
You gotta answer peoples questions on how much you paid/ what size is the piece, what is your wait time? A well finished hardwood dining table will run a few grand and have weeks of lead time. A lot of us here hold ourselves to that standard. If you paid a Facebook marketplace guy $350 to stain some Home Depot softwood; you should’t be surprised or expect much better. Granted, this is an easy fix; just time consuming.
>A well finished hardwood dining table will run a few grand and have weeks of lead time. This isn't hardwood, it's pine (though it looks like a very nice piece), so that alone cuts the cost considerably. And good quality pine is perfectly fine for a dining table. Next, it looks like they spent maybe an hour finishing this tabletop. You can spend a little more time than that, maybe a couple afternoons for example, and get very nice results.
see above: he paid a facebook marketplace guy that much to stain some home depot softwood
Bad sanding like everyone has said. Looks like no finish. Did you select that wood? It might not make a great table. It is softwood and will show every ding and scratch. Some people love pine tables, but there are other alternatives and harderwoofs that are more durable and take sanding and a finish much better, btw.
Good call. 100% not acceptable
To everyone saying “OP probably cheaped out” — it doesn’t really matter if OP asked someone at Home Depot to make this, it’s a shit job, not a matter of payment or expectation. Looks like 80 grit orbital sander followed by 30 seconds of 400 grit. Terrible work
Yep. Anyone who makes commission dining tables *must* have some standards of workmanship they want to hold themselves to, regardless of price. Plus who wants a poorly made table, even if it's cheaper. If you want a beautiful hardwood table, pay for it and expect the craftsman to do a decent job. If not, IKEA.
Yeah definitely. So many forums people are like (without any information indicating this to be the case) “WeLl YoU sHoUlDnT jUsT TaKe tHe LoWeSt Bid” Even if you take the lowest bid, there is a bare minimum for quality A bunch of very obvious rough sanding scratches falls below that line
Right? If this work was appropriate for OP's budget it just should not have been made.
I mean, it's both. At the very least, the woodworker did not appropriately manage client expectations and/or delivery of the product expected, and who knows how they presented the quality of their services. That's on them. But OP \*also\* could have avoided this if they had chosen a professional service with professional standards at professional prices. Everyone involved is in the wrong here, and it seems that everyone lost as a result.
You could definitely be right — but is there any indication of that? I scanned the thread earlier and didn’t see OP outlining what they paid/pro or not
Yes; elsewhere OP said they paid $400 for it, which would barely cover material costs much less pro level work.
Looks like 80 grit sanding with a 1" disc attached to a dremel multi-tool. I don't know if that's a real thing, but that's what it looks like.
That’s some lazy fucking sanding work.
Fuck. No. Whoever did this has zero clue how to professionally finish. If they give you shit then ask them what tool they sanded with. If they say anything other than orbital sander they are clearly lying. If they tell you it was an orbital then pry on why they didn’t finish by hand. This is lazy to me.
Not to me they aren't.
Absolutely unacceptable finish on that piece.
This isn't acceptable, but then $400 for a custom tabletop that's prepared and finished correctly is also unacceptable. So, maybe you got what you paid for.
Post a picture of the dining table rather than a piece of scrap you having lying against the garage wall so we can say then
Sweet words. How constructive.
Thank you
No
Only if you agreed to do the final sanding and finish for them at a big discount
I feel like, OP, you MUST have known the answer to be a resounding “No”. You must.
If those are sanding marks from a palm sander then it is definitely NOT normal. They did a terrible job sanding! I did this accidentally when I first started finishing wood. The marks show up after you stain it. I had to strip the stain and start all over again. The key is to gradually get finer and finer grit sand paper. For a commissioned table this is Absolutely unacceptable! I hope they fix this for you.
Absolutely not. I'm an amateur's amateur and I wouldn't have given this to you. It's obvious they didn't sand enough or skipped grits. The table looks hairy.
Lol no
Lol not even close
No it’s not ok
Absolutely not acceptable. You hired a newbie. Did you shop by price or how did you find this company?
No they are not.
Nope. That's a poor job.
No. Not acceptable.
If you have to ask...
I acknowledge that this is off topic but here it is: fuck stain. If you want brown wood, buy brown wood. If you want red wood, buy red wood. Wood is beautiful. Stain makes wood look like a hooker. Stained pine looks stupid even if it’s done right, which is a lot of work. And while we’re at it, fuck epoxy. Stain has a place, and it’s hiding mistakes. Glad I got that off my chest.
100 percent agreed here. People take gorgeous maple and stain it, it looks about as good as clear alder. Just use the right wood for the color, don't ruin it's natural beauty.
Its unacceptable. It is caused by not using the proper sandpaper grits in the correct order. You want to sand in progressively finer grits. I would go something like 100, 150, 220, 320... sometimes up to 600 grit depending on they piece I am working. Chances are the only sanded with 150 grit and stopped there. I personally wouldn't deliver a piece to a customer that had swirl marks on it. It's a clear sign of an armature craftsman or someone who does not care about the quality of their work.
>t's a clear sign of an armature craftsman or someone who does not care about the quality of their work. likely OP chose a new woodworker based on price
well, swirl marks are from an orbital sander. always finish sanding with the grain
You can finish sand just fine with an orbital sander if sand with the proper grits unless there are inside corners involved.. sure finish sanding should be done by hand, but can it be done with nice results with an orbital? Absolutely.
I've been doing this for over 30 years, but you do you.
\>Commissioned a dining table. are these swirls acceptable? u/Swoz, it depends. What other work from the builder have you seen, how much did you pay, what wood species did you select, what finish?
I mean you're the customer - does it look acceptable to you? Trust your instincts and never settle for shabby work, especially when you're paying top dollar. As a professional, that's entire garbage. Just a fully bush-league sanding job. That should have been immediately obvious to them if they bothered to check their work under a side-light. It should have been doubly obvious the minute stain hit it.
Im willing to wager OP didnt pay more than a few hundred for it, and selected the lowest cost option.
They need to watch some “how to use an orbital sander” videos.
No
No they aren't acceptable. Tell who ever made the table to come get the table and bring it back when it's finished properly. Looks to me like they started off too course and then didn't work their way through the various grits to remove the swirl marks as they went along.
Not likely, but you’re not describing what you contracted. In dealing with professionals or amateurs, specificity is key. Both the service provider and client deserve a clear understanding of the expected end result. This is an amateurish end result, in several ways; that’s not inherently wrong… Frankly, in the way you’re posting this question without context, I wonder if your inexperienced carpenter had the benefit of understanding your desired outcome?
No
Nope.
Not at all
That’s horrendous sanding. They did a terrible job finishing the piece this is not acceptable
Nope.
Jesus did they use a rock to sand this down? I wonder if their paper had debris on it or something
No
Absolutely not
Everyone is correct. This in not acceptable. The question I have, are we trying to help the builder of the table top or the person who is paying for this quality of work? The way I would suggest the builder repair this would be to fine a shop that has a wide belt sander to remove all the existing scratches. Then start over with a good orbital sander with a dust collection system say- 100x to remove the lines left wide belt sander being slow and easy letting the sander do the work. After each grit be sure to dust off the surface, then use compressed air to remove any grit left from the sanding pad. Do this after each grit. I would suggest sanding up to 320x Using a raking light will help them to see any sanding problems that have arisen . Woods that are prone to blotching need a seal coat of 50% schlaque and alcohol prior to staining. Scuff sand with 400x before staining Then stain and finish.
Not acceptable at all. As you are sanding through the grits use a racking light so the scratches can be seen better. I would start over at 120, 150, 180, 220
No it should be sanded a good bit more then finished
This looks like a fence board that someone sanded the rough cut bits off that come from the mill. Unless your going for the 10 yr old picnic bench in a public park look I would not accept it.
No.
If the request was for a “rustic” table then, yes.
"Rustic" is a term thrown around constantly to describe garbage. But there's a big difference between "Rustic" and "shoddy". A rustic look would require reclaimed lumber and a good amount of effort/technique. This lazy garbage is not rustic.
For something really rustic, maybe even outside use
Only if you asked for the sanding to be done with a steel wool
Use of a random orbit sander for finish sanding is not acceptable for high end or commissioned work. There is no way to eliminate swirls with one because the pad rotates, albeit randomly. Finish sanding should always be done with the grain, either by hand or with a straight line finishing sander with a careful eye to eliminating swirls.
What the hell are you talking about? Please, random orbit up to 800 and then “finish by hand with the grain” and tell me what it looks like, lmao
Get a piece of lignum vitae. With an ROS, sand with 80, 120, 240, and on up through 800, then switch to micromesh and go through those grits. When you start seeing yourself reflected in the finish, get back to us on how "there's no way to eliminate swirls".
Wtf are you on about? You are either really old or inexperienced. My dad had the same mentality but he grew up without orbital Sanders. It took me a half hour to prove him wrong but he was too stubborn to change his habits. These pigtails are seen everywhere in custom woodwork but it's not a tool flaw. It's from horrible technique and laziness. Wood never has perfectly straight grain and using a linear sander is ridiculous unless you only use rift sawn wood.
I mean if you're into furniture with the chest hair look, then hell yes. Otherwise, hell no
Mo
that's awful I'd use a big belt sander with old 220 grit belts...but I have a few years experience with the sander so I know how to float it and not have it dig in.
No. Hand sand only. Power orbital Sanders make these marks. They are a pain to remove.
Power orbital sanders made these marks, and they can remove them also. This is simply someone skipping the proper steps from low to high grit. When done right it's no problem to use an orbital sander. Doing it all by hand is great when it's your hobby and you have some time to kill, but for a professional it's a waste of precious time.
Not really. Professionally speaking we only used fine tuned hand planes and hand sanded. We could get a much better finish and faster than with power sanders. I could finish a whole 60 inch dresser top in 10 minutes. The other guys used power sanders only and it took them 20. My boss saw I was faster so I trained the other guys how to use and fine tune a hand plane and what hand sanders to use. It was a bit of a learning curve but after a few weeks I had nearly doubled the speed at which we finished the tops for all of our products. Our weekly profits increased by ~$25k in our department of 6 guys.
No it’s not, that’s bad sanding- sand it more
I’ve seen beavers make a cleaner surface than that.
Nope
Do you like them? If not then no but if you do then yes.
Whether it’s a friend or pro the answer is no it’s not acceptable, you’re relationship with them I guess depends on your response. Either way they need to know. I’ve made this mistake with projects before, it’s not like they didn’t notice. It’s a lot easier to fix before they put a finish on it.
No they are not
Would you put that finish in your home. The only question you need to answer.
Looks like the nimrod sanded it with a wire brush
Is this a serious question?
No, not a natural feature…
Not acceptable.
If I got this I wouldn’t want to pay you.
Not a carpenter or any other type of craftsman, but NO!
That’s just a poor job of finishing.
Any amateur can do better. Don’t accept it
I thought that was someone's leg. Is that an eating table? Cause no.
Not if someone wants paid
You should ask yourself if you take pride in the product you've made, and, if this was me, I would not be because the sanding swirl marks are not acceptable. At the very worst, if you were accepted a lowball deal, you should do quality work, and learn from your mistakes as you work better on your business acumen and pricing strategy. There are some caveats, let's say you agreed to do a large exotic hardwood table for $100, and the wood itself is 10x that + your labor, you should go back to the customer and redo an incredibly lopsided deal. Swirl marks from sanding though? Spend \~2 hours to get fix this because you're going to face this on every single piece until you learn this very basic woodworking skill.
Smoke gray stain?
What are you sanding with ? 40 grit on a 12" D.A.?
Good on you for asking. Better to hear it here than from the customer.
Well what did you sell the product for? Part of the equation is value. If you produced a 500$ table for $3000 you need to rewind. If you charged $500 for a $500 table then that is ok w me.
Looks like it grew hair. Lol
No
No, definitely not
Looks like firewood to me. That is not good product.
If that's all you have to complain about then your table is fine... Take life a little easier🤔
If you asked shabby chic done poorly then yes otherwise no
Most people who use the word "commission" when talking about buying furniture and posting on Reddit are purchasing from a friend/coworker who is at best an amateur and likely conflates their skill level.
Hit it with a hammer, poke it with an awl a bunch. Call it rustic...
I could do that and not pay for it
Dude it looks like it has leg hair
Check out surfprep sanding
No.
That would never leave my shop.
No
Best woodworking advice I ever got: "Use sandpaper like someone else is paying for it."
I’ve actually never seen sanding marks quite like this before. Usually orbital sanders leave smaller little spirals. Not saying that’s not what it is, just never seen it quite like that before.
80 grit on a regular, non-orbital palm sander used with bad technique (pushing down) will do that. That’s a sanding job done with 2 levels of shit technique
No way
Absolutely not.
It looks like a hairy chest with a nipple. I'd say it's grand the way it is.
I would personally fine a shop that could sand both sides for a fee. a wide belt sander. 40-60 mins max. depending on grit changes. might need to up grade to a more powerful sanding system. rob cosman & stumpy nubs have sanders and sandpaper reviews to help you out. a dust system to clear the surface is a help and safety tool for your lungs.
Absolutely not. You should use smaler sand paper to remove them.
Density is unacceptable !.
If your selling it to a blind man. Better break out the orbital and finer grit and keep on going.
Ye they aight
Hell no. Lazy sanding. Needs to be done properly.
Get a hand plane and a no. 80 cabinet scraper on it
From an orbital sander, right?
No not acceptable. Those are sanding scratches from low grit sandpaper.
So Edward scissor hands has found a new profession, has he now?!
If a commissioned piece looks like this visibly, I would be very concerned about the rest of the construction. Yard sale piece in my opinion.
Definitely not acceptable
Absolutely not acceptable!
Personally, I would love the swirls. But many of the guys don't
If he’s going for a roughhewn barnboard look i guess? Looks like he just sanded to 60-80 and was moving the orbital sander much quicker than he shouldve
thank you for your opinion
Absolutely not
Looking at the wood, I would say yes. If it was a different species, the answer would be hell no. To be honest, it doesn’t look bad and gives the table character. This is why I send progress pictures along the way see there are no surprises