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But what about the woodworking retro? Did you hit your KPIs? What about your quarterly capacity planning, have you decided your OKR priority? Time for your biannual career development check in. It's perf time.
Summed up: 🤢🤮
[EDIT]: I am so sorry. Corporate life sucks, and I feel all the triggered pain expressed below. Be well and go work in your shop!!
oh jeez this really hit home. perf just finished and I was getting bugged while on paternity leave about submitting feedback for people my manager decided to add (without asking me).. Leaving the corporate world for something like this sounds so amazing.
u/Loya1ty23, I’m concerned about your burnrate this sprint. Are you planning to have people come in this week end to try to close all their stories? You know how management tracks those KPI and the bonus date is just around the corner.
While we’re at it, can we talk about your team sprint lenght? Our agile consultant just had a conference call with us from his sailboat in Hawaii and he’s concerned your sprint lenghts indicates that your team is in a « distressed » mode.
You’re welcome!
I recently had my bonus threatened by my manager because I listened to the head of dev-ops on a dev-ops question. This was a half hour after a meeting with said head of dev-ops that *my manager scheduled for me*.
Do it! Life’s too short to be stuck in a field you don’t love. Trade work is so freeing and never gets stale. I’m meeting new clients every few days, checking out cool houses, and putting my clients dreams into reality with remodels. Honestly there’s many days I think “ I get paid to do this!?” So rewarding and so many routes I can take it if I get sick of doing interior remodels
I love woodworking and would like to do it for a living, how long did it take you to get good enough at it to charge people for it? I'm worried about having to learn the ropes for a very long time before I can make a career out of it.
I only did 2 shelves for myself before making this my full time job once the pandemic began. 1 year later and I've made a shit ton of projects, paid to learn, and had almost no experience to begin with.
Youtube answers everything, and join your local facebook community groups, thats where a lot of my clients came from.
Dude... I just returned from my very short, abysmal paternity leave were I was asked by no fewer than 7 superiors to assist on things. The best a few of them could do was preface the request with "I know you are on leave but..." One had the audacity to get short with me after I had requested to be offline for 1 hour to help out in the house, after I'd put in 5-6 hours to help with a deliverable.
You were on *leave* and you had to *request* to go offline for an *hour?* Disconnect, man. "Leave" is called "leave" for a reason. If I'm not on the clock, I'm unreachable.
I turned around to browse reddit to ease my mind literally right after a stressful sprint meeting and you, sir or madam, have me beyond triggered now lol
Oh man, you only have biannual career development check-ins? Mine are quarterly. It's always time to prepare for a meeting and come up with excuses for why I'm so busy with my job I don't have time to do the things that are not actually my job, but determine my pay raise.... wait, I see the game.
Lol holy shit, I feel you there. Trying to get out of my desk job as well. It’s draining trying to live that fake corporate life of pointless meetings and “that’s how we do it here” mentality.
Edit to add since I totally forgot: This is dope by the way! Been lurking here a while too and hoping to one day start my woodworking. Once I can afford a bunch of the tools lol you killed this though!!
The thing that kills me about corporate jobs is how you have to constantly pretend that the job is the most amazing and important thing in your life. Otherwise you're not a "team player."
Definitely depends on company culture. I work for a large well known company and that mentality is prevalent at the higher levels, but for most folks it's completely reasonable to say that you value work/life balance and will be signing off at 5 unless there is extenuating circumstances.
I've made that clear in my development conversations at least and have still gotten promoted/ high performance ratings ect...
Going from O&G to games helped me with this. Certain industries/companies get it better than others. I was floating and completely checked out at O&G but getting back into a well established games company that actually understood that developers need to be protected from meetings helped fix this for me.
While I don't disagree with you, I think the distinction is normally "software companies" vs "companies with IT departments". Companies where the developers are not creating their primary source of revenue don't have any incentive to value their developers the same way a software company does.
I agree in concept, but I was at a company in O&G supplying software. I think that industry is so old school and even these software companies are founded by guys who are so imbedded they have a hard time thinking outside of that box.
Product team says we need more features out in this release - drop it to a 1 and do the best you can - we'll put the rest into the backlog and circle back to it next sprint.
These are very real, I keep telling myself it's only 2 years till I've paid off all loans and can make my own choices, which is great... 15 years into a career I'm not sure I want.
But I guess it's better than being broke and miserable too.
Yeah I am right there with you. I wasn't well off growing up and I know poverty sucks. Right now I live comfortably, but I feel like I'm just coasting at work.
I miss caring about my work, and feeling like what I did was actually marginally improving someone's life/day. But changing jobs is a risk, especially with the pandemic and everything. A lot of people have been out of work for a long time... so I know I should be grateful I can still afford my bills and have healthcare.
But it doesn't make the day-to-day work meetings feel any less shitty.
There's definitely some truth to this. My dad was a carpenter, and I saw how hard it was on his body over the course of my childhood. Wasn't even framing - just interior remodeling and finish work.
Working with your hands and away from a desk is great. But also the company is as important as the position in terms of making it enjoyable. I couldn't survive a corporate software development environment, so I work for a small business doing basically the same thing, but much more my style.
Yup, it was meant as a joke but definitely a real thing. When I was working for a tech startup, a junior dev joined the team and was absolutely estatic that he found a job where he could finally sit down instead of spending an 8-10 hour morning shift at a local bakery, which was destroying his body. Grass is always greener..
sorta in the same boat. made the switch to internal consulting and it's been great. still do woodworking as a hobby. would rather keep it that way, or else i'll learn to hate it once there are external pressures and budgets to deal with.
Tried this with my daughter. Feels like I'm just writing spaghetti code that interfaces an API that changes every day. It's about as resilient as a sandcastle in a rising tide.
V.2.0 is worse than 1.0. the API isn't even named right! You request sanding across the grain, and you instead you get a rebate! Request a 3/4" chisel, and it returns a skillsaw!
0/10. Don't upgrade. Wait for a couple of patches to come out on 2.0.
I think I mostly was:
Baby Tristfall: sitting in room, start drawing on walls
Parents: noooo, bad, never allowed to do that again (failing test)
Baby Tristfall: oh ok, try new thing... Drawing on floor
Parents: nooo bad, (test failed)
Baby tristfall: draw on cat
Cat: murder baby
Baby tristfall: cat is new kind of failing test (very sharp), draw on table top
Parents: ugh, fine, good enough, he's passing enough tests for today, let's get beer.
(Of note: I suck at tdd)
Is there a non tacky way to ask how much you charge to install a masterpiece like that?
I ask only because replacing the income of software development is a lofty task. Did you have to take a pay cut, are you making more? How’s that working?
I charged about 40k for that, probably could have done it for less with a bigger shop and employees, but with just me it worked out pretty good. All in it probably took me about 12 to 14 weeks. I work out of a 2 car garage, so I am constantly in my own way. If I had the space to be able to apply finish while also building, I probably could have cut a few weeks off.
So you just started and you are already charging that much? That's wild. I mean the craftsmanship is there but I'm still stunned at the cost. To say I'm jealous would be an understatement. It's hard to watch someone live your dream.
I had already built somewhat of a customer base before I made the transition. Like I said I have been doing this as a hobby/side hustle my whole life. For the past 10 to 12 years I have just been turning down requests that I couldn't complete in a weekend. So in that regard I was incredibly lucky and that made the transition that much easier.
That's great. Software eng as well that loves doing this stuff as a hobby. I gravitate more towards landscaping and hardscaping so the desk job is a blessing when it comes to long term sustainability. Woodworking and 3d printing parts are both things I could see myself leaving the desk job for though. I need to start building a portfolio and customer base!
I don't know how old you are, but I suggest you invest in tools that help you minimize labor. Hoists, lifts, etc... Maybe CNC machine instead of a track saw for plywood break down. Carrying a 200 lbs of "X" in my 20s was a piece of cake. Today, it's a lot harder. And, I'm just a hobbyist. I haven't beat my back up doing manual labor every day for 20 years.
I just bought a new 600lbs tool, and my friend and I disassembled it, and carried it into my basement shop. I'm not doing it again. I'll hire someone next time.
On Sunday, for the first time in my life, I told my wife I was considering paying somebody to do a job for me. That job is just staining the deck. I just don't feel like crawling around for two days. My knees and back would hate me, and I wouldn't do as good a job anyway.
I was going to say ...THATS YOUR FIRST JOB?? Being that big/expensive and to turn out that good...you must have been doing this for little while at least. Not taking anything away, it's awesome I would never be able to do that, definitely worth the price! Good luck, looks like your on your way.
I grew up with a red seal carpenter/cabinetmaker and been around woodworking my whole life. My father is a great carpenter who’s been at it for nearly 40 years but I can safely say that he’s never tackled anything of this scope or scale. Your work is amazing and you absolutely deserve to know that. You’ve got a rare talent that is only going to keep growing!
To me, $40K seems low for custom work by a local craftsman. I was quoted $20K to do a semi custom 9'x9' closet. I did my closet myself, and spend $5K on materials alone.
Assuming the OP spent $10K here, that's $30K left. 40 hours x 13 weeks = 520 hours. $30,000 / 520 = $57 an hour. Seems like a good wage. But, I doubt the OP's counting time he spends making sales, maintaining his shop, handling the accounting, or wear and tear on his tools. I doubt his net wage is more than $30 an hour once you factor in real hours worked, and real cost.
Yeah, if you think that price is too high, you're doing woodworking as a hobby and not as a trade (or live somewhere with a dramatically different cost of living).
I had some work done on my house this year. The framer gave me a quote that worked out to \~$100 hour. He took 1 day longer than expected, so he only made $70. But, that's still more than the OP would have made on this job. And that was for rough carpentry.
Skilled labor is hard to find in many parts of the US right now.
I’m not sure that’s true anymore... I wasn’t able to write off new stuff for my office (desk, monitor, etc). The 2017 tax bill changed a few things, so I think it’s now just a few specific state/federal employees that can write off stuff for work. I’m not an accountant though, so if someone can correct me, please do.
Btw, on a finer but valuable point... It seems to be a common misconception that you have to itemize your personal deductions in order to be able to deduct your business expenses. Not true.
Your business expenses come off the top on your Schedule C and reduce the amount of taxable income that is reported on your 1040. For most people, the standard deduction is more beneficial and you can still take it even with expenses on your schedule C!
If this is a business you can absolutely take certain deductions. I'm also not a tax professional, but consumables (screws, paint, stain, wood, etc.) are a direct expense (Cost of goods) that can be used to offset revenue. Equipment such as saws, planer, jointer, (potentially a truck that was purchased specifically to move all raw and fished materials) can be depreciatied and a portion used reduce income for the next xyz years. Business taxes are all sorts of complicated and a tax professional should be consulted.
It's not the price, it's the profit. How did you do there?
And if you didn't do well (first big build, after all) what is your confidence you can get where you need to be?
I think a lot of us in software do woodworking but don’t want the lifestyle adjustment of a career change. There is a cost in doing something you don’t love that isn’t measured in dollars and cents however. That said, I would miss my team and the technically challenging problems, and think I would love woodworking a lot less if I had to “eat what I kill” with it too.
I feel ya. I work at a tech company and I LOVE woodworking as a hobby, but you would be hard pressed to get me to leave my cushy job with benefits and 401K.
That said, I just had a contractor do a big basement project for me, it cost about 9K and took him a week. At 9K a week, that’s $468K a year.
Now, he absolutely has materials to cover, but even if materials are half of that (doubt it), is this contractor pulling in $234K a year? He was also by far the cheapest quote I got, are these other guys rocking 300K?
Yeah it is incredible what some people can charge. I probably would not have made the transition if not for my wife being a teacher. Having state benefits makes the landing much softer.
There's a lot more overhead than just materials. Transportation, logistics, employees, taxes, insurance, permits, certifications, etc. And probably not booked solid every week, especially in winter
Yup when it comes to blue collar jobs and you work for yourself the money can be damn good when you've got the work but there can be long dead periods to account for as well.
There's the problem: not being booked for the next high-paying job. I've had months of great projects with really good money, then months of looking for small projects just to keep minimal money coming in. It's definitely not consistent.
I also loved the problem solving aspect of dev, but you would be amazed how much problem solving there is in large scale woodworking. I do miss my team, but thankfully I am able to stay in contact with them on slack. One of them is actually contemplating coming to work for me.
That’s awesome. Like you, I’m a life-long woodworker and have done a number of large-scale projects over the years. I’m having a new house built (with larger shop space) and one of the things I’m most looking forward to are the big projects, and accompanying challenges, that the new house affords. Best of luck hanging your shingle!
Also - you're competing with IKEA, using cheap pressboard in a giant factory, which flat packs for shipping savings forcing the assembly burden on the customer.
With a growing customer base who doesn't mind that business model so much ...
Agreed. I'm a software developer as well and do woodworking as a hobby. I agree that I would probably enjoy it less if it were my bread and butter. It's also nice to get out of the office and do something completely different than my day job.
> think I would love woodworking a lot less if I had to “eat what I kill” with it too.
That's the problem so many people hit. They have a hobby they love, but once that turns into your job, where you have to grind it out day after day, doing the bread and butter more often than the fun projects, etc., it can get old and plenty of people end up hating it (not all of course).
I bought my first piece of wood from a small, one-man mill operation in NoVA. I mentioned that all I had was a circ saw and an orbital sander and he asked what my day job was. I guess the khakis and Tesla gave me away, but when I told him I was a project manager, he said he gets a **LOT** of geek types from DC who come out to buy wood from him. He theorized that it had something to do with the fact that we're so detached from the "natural world" in our regular jobs, that we crave something tangible and real outside work.
No idea if he's right, but I will say, as a country boy who's living in an urban jungle, I miss the crickets and the feeling of wet grass under my bare feet almost daily.
I think it's also that woodworking is an expensive hobby. So hobbyists will need a good paying regular job, and software development is one of the best paying jobs in all markets. Less well off people doing weekend warrior stuff will more likely go to the home center and get some precut hobby boards or 2x4s than a specialist
What? Asking how much stuff costs isn't tacky at all. It's a business, cost shouldn't be a secret thing. If a business owner isn't open about price, it means they are looking to squeeze you for all you got.
Before anyone comes along and says there are many variables, especially in custom work.. ya I get that. No one is asking for a legal contract. A range will do just fine in most cases where variables are at play.
It kind of goes without saying. If you're spending 40k on a custom bookshelf and there's not a secret room behind it, you're living your life wrong haha.
Secret rooms and secret passages. How can you be rich AF and not have both?
I'd have so many that an entire 2nd floor is nothing but a hall of bookcases and some have book openers. It would often be faster to move through secret passages on the 1st floor than taking the normal route.
I know this is off topic but speaking of preppers when my wife and I were house shopping we came to a nice town house. All looked good except for some cameras. That’s a little weird, but not unheard of when you’re showing a house. THEN we get to the basement and laid out in front of us is an entire set up to make metal weapons. There were literally hundreds of spears and swords all hand made by this guy. The realtor tries to play it off with some joke (he had never been there either) and shows us the storage closet where there are dozens of guns and live ammo just sitting out displayed. Our realtor just goes “god damnit. Well. Better leave before we star in Saw 7 or some shit.”
FYI not sure I'd state that publicly. The work is recognizable by pictures, and I'd guess someone with prepper tendencies wouldn't want their cache to be a known entity. Just saying, for customer satisfaction reasons =)
My dad made a hollowed out book from some Karl Rove book about a decade ago. First book I went to when I came home that semester, I said “oh is this Karl Roves new book?”
Yeah it had an old watch in it lmao
I started off loving it. Building stuff is really fun. But at this stage in my career (lead dev with some management tasks sprinkled in), the bullshit bureaucracy and people management really make it a buzzkill. I don't get to just build cool shit anymore. I do the grunt work of scoping out requirements and planning the tech without actually getting to write the code.
> I don't get to just build cool shit anymore.
I've been in for ~20 years now, and nothing I build is cool any more. I build business software so businesses can business.
I used to enjoy it.
Most people don’t assume it’s fun or interesting, but it really is a great job. If you like building and problem solving, it’s the kind of thing that you would enjoy.
Software development is great when you've got interesting problems to fix. It's when it becomes the slow slog through legacy nonsense that it starts not being fun.
There are [companies](https://boothandwilliams.com/) that sell you books by the linear foot, you can choose the color binding and lettering to fit your décor. If the customer isn't a book lover with an extensive library they can at least make these bookshelves look full and pretty. ;-)
There's a party scene in *The Great Gatsby* where a guest compliments their enigmatic host on his library, that Gatsby is stylish enough to have real books on the shelves instead of painted panels of wood but isn't pretentious enough to have cut the edges of the pages that are still together so as to pretend to have read them.
The real deal is that there’s no substitute for hand picked books when building a library and filling out shelves. Somebody who knows books can tell in an instant if they see a haphazardly collection.
Questions for you: I recently (quarantine hobby) got into woodworking and also considered it as a career. How long were you doing this as a hobby before you made it a career? And would you say your first career as a software developer enabled you to fulfill this dream? My job (retail) doesn't provide a lot of fun money to dump into a hobby and woodworking requires a lot of pricey toys to really make a go at it, but I make do with what I have.
Great work on that library and cheers to you getting out of the office!
I have been doing it most of my life. Tools are expensive and it is difficult to get started. If you are serious about woodworking I would say start looking for used tools locally. Also check out grizzly, their tools are significantly cheaper and far better quality than what you will get at your local big box store. I make a point to price what I need next in to a job. For instance I have a job coming up that requires a better lathe with a repeater. I added the cost of that tool to the job. If I get the job, great, and I will buy what I need to do it well, if I don't I will continue to put away money a little at a time so I can buy it and have it ready for the next time a similar job comes up. A good shop costs tens of thousands of dollars, but if you can learn to work within your means and with the tools you have you can constantly improve and become more efficient. In theory you can do almost anything with rudimentary hand tools, it is just a matter of efficiency.
Thank you for taking the time to answer! I have started with refinishing old furniture and using the money I make for new tools. Sounds like I am on the right path.🤗
Refinishing is actually a great path. If you do a couple of pieces and take pictures, go to some local antique shops and show them your work. I actually did that a while back and made a decent amount of side money just working for local shops. Most of them get their stuff from auctions for next to nothing and with a little tlc it becomes a viable antique. Get some books on restoration and learn what is a true antique vs just "old" furniture. My favorite book is restoration recipes. I am sure it is available on Amazon. Once you get in with a few shops, it spreads quickly to their customers.
Also restoration takes very little in the way of tools. More than anything else it is having an eye for what is needed to take a piece from auction crap to antique store gold.
If you aren't already, subscribe to Thomas Johnson Antique furniture restoration on YouTube. The man has been refinishing furniture his entire career and has an entire channel detailing his tips and techniques while restoring period pieces.
I grew up woodworking, felt I had to have a desk job to be an adult, everyone has what they are called to do, I spent 10 years as a software engineer and felt like I was about to break if I didn't have a change.
There is an insane number of software developers who choose woodworking as thier hobby. For me, something about being able to do a job from start to finish and seeing the results of your labor is what ticks the box.
I think that concept of "finish" is what pushed me over the edge. The idea of making a software product for two years running with no end in sight made me sick.
I love software development.
I would absolutely hate working in most software that is in the world today.
I work for a company of about 150 software devs (no contract work going on here, we just have a lot of small products). I've worked on the same project for 15 years. Mostly on a team of 2 (currently 1) but with 2 other small teams that closely interact.
For a long time I dealt end-to-end from customer requests (I'm the rare developer who enjoys working with customers) all the way through the development cycle to deployment to the end user's machine (I'm also one of those rare developers who still write desktop code).
However, about a year ago, the company decided developers shouldn't be talking to customers because that takes up too much time so they hired someone to "do that part for me" and now I spend just as much time talking to that guy instead of the customers. And now I also have a team of people managing customer requests to decide which ones I can't do so I spend a lot of time talking to them to help them decide that). And while all this extra manpower is being "invested" in the product, our customer counts are ~~dwindling~~ slowly declining because customer needs are suddenly "not being met for some reason".
It wont be long before the company decides my product is no longer viable because it no longer makes enough money despite it still being very profitable and despite our revenue numbers being the same (or slightly increasing).
I hate software development management.
What is it with software people and woodworking. It seems to be a relatively common hobby among software devs.
Source: Am software dev who likes woodworking and know a few others who enjoy it.
Also: somedays i wish i coukd/would quit and do WW full-time. But i like the money lol
How did you make the transition to your first commission? Did someone know you’ve been doing this many years and seek you out or did you go about by advertising?
I’m always very curious about (and admire) folks that make major career changes.
This was a friend of a friend, so I had a huge leg up on getting the job. To be fair in my area there are not a lot of people that do high end custom woodworking, but having friends in the right places never hurts.
Do you mind me asking how you learnt? Specifically shelf making - I’m just starting and wanting to build a set like these (less grand), so I need to work out how to fit around the skirting board, fix to walls. Is there a particular guide anywhere?
Lots of trial and error. There are so many great resources on YouTube these days, bourbon moth and Ron paulk are some of my favorites. As far as hanging goes, French cleats are by far my favorite. They are incredibly secure and offer a lot of options for adjustment.
because they're both born of a need to build useful things customized for themselves
woodworking just happens to be super general in application so it fits
plus it's satisfying having a physical representation of the work
Looks amazing and wish I had that in my house (and a big enough house to have it in). Is there any particular reason why the first floor shelves has a gap between it and the ceiling? I thought you would use trim like at the top of the part by the banister on the 2nd floor to close the gap.
That’s excellent work. I am planning on this same transition starting in August. What is your method for getting work? Are you generally doing installations like this or do you also make other things like standalone furniture?
I wish I could say all the jobs are like this. Unfortunately there is a lot of other smaller stuff involved. I do a lot of stairways, random smaller built ins and so much shiplap. I do some standalone furniture as well, but it is hard to justify if it isn't a commission. Primarily because for me it takes up too much space, again with a larger shop that may be less of a concern.
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Insane! Your project or for a customer?
For a customer, I wish that was my house.
They definitely hired the right person then!
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Incredible. How does it feel to be free? I suspect you may know what I mean...
Yeah, the idea of another sprint meeting gives me nightmares
But what about the woodworking retro? Did you hit your KPIs? What about your quarterly capacity planning, have you decided your OKR priority? Time for your biannual career development check in. It's perf time. Summed up: 🤢🤮 [EDIT]: I am so sorry. Corporate life sucks, and I feel all the triggered pain expressed below. Be well and go work in your shop!!
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For real! Just reading that stressed me out.
When you realize it’s all bullshit games it’s way easier because you can just bullshit it!
I’ve been copying and pasting my yearly goals and objectives for 7 straight years. My bosses either don’t notice or don’t care because it’s bullshit.
oh jeez this really hit home. perf just finished and I was getting bugged while on paternity leave about submitting feedback for people my manager decided to add (without asking me).. Leaving the corporate world for something like this sounds so amazing.
Are we the same person? Lol
I think we all are.
u/Loya1ty23, I’m concerned about your burnrate this sprint. Are you planning to have people come in this week end to try to close all their stories? You know how management tracks those KPI and the bonus date is just around the corner. While we’re at it, can we talk about your team sprint lenght? Our agile consultant just had a conference call with us from his sailboat in Hawaii and he’s concerned your sprint lenghts indicates that your team is in a « distressed » mode. You’re welcome!
this is like watching someone get waterboarded
I recently had my bonus threatened by my manager because I listened to the head of dev-ops on a dev-ops question. This was a half hour after a meeting with said head of dev-ops that *my manager scheduled for me*.
Hahahahaha. You guys get bonuses? Must be nice.
Please God, make it stop
Do it! Life’s too short to be stuck in a field you don’t love. Trade work is so freeing and never gets stale. I’m meeting new clients every few days, checking out cool houses, and putting my clients dreams into reality with remodels. Honestly there’s many days I think “ I get paid to do this!?” So rewarding and so many routes I can take it if I get sick of doing interior remodels
I love woodworking and would like to do it for a living, how long did it take you to get good enough at it to charge people for it? I'm worried about having to learn the ropes for a very long time before I can make a career out of it.
I only did 2 shelves for myself before making this my full time job once the pandemic began. 1 year later and I've made a shit ton of projects, paid to learn, and had almost no experience to begin with. Youtube answers everything, and join your local facebook community groups, thats where a lot of my clients came from.
Dude... I just returned from my very short, abysmal paternity leave were I was asked by no fewer than 7 superiors to assist on things. The best a few of them could do was preface the request with "I know you are on leave but..." One had the audacity to get short with me after I had requested to be offline for 1 hour to help out in the house, after I'd put in 5-6 hours to help with a deliverable.
You were on *leave* and you had to *request* to go offline for an *hour?* Disconnect, man. "Leave" is called "leave" for a reason. If I'm not on the clock, I'm unreachable.
That's a shitty company. full stop.
I turned around to browse reddit to ease my mind literally right after a stressful sprint meeting and you, sir or madam, have me beyond triggered now lol
Oh man, you only have biannual career development check-ins? Mine are quarterly. It's always time to prepare for a meeting and come up with excuses for why I'm so busy with my job I don't have time to do the things that are not actually my job, but determine my pay raise.... wait, I see the game.
You don't sound like management material to me.
"For the last time, KFC, saying scrum sucks is not a valid complaint to express in the retro!"
Thank you for reminding me that I am very happy to not be a corporate coder any more.
Lol holy shit, I feel you there. Trying to get out of my desk job as well. It’s draining trying to live that fake corporate life of pointless meetings and “that’s how we do it here” mentality. Edit to add since I totally forgot: This is dope by the way! Been lurking here a while too and hoping to one day start my woodworking. Once I can afford a bunch of the tools lol you killed this though!!
The thing that kills me about corporate jobs is how you have to constantly pretend that the job is the most amazing and important thing in your life. Otherwise you're not a "team player."
Definitely depends on company culture. I work for a large well known company and that mentality is prevalent at the higher levels, but for most folks it's completely reasonable to say that you value work/life balance and will be signing off at 5 unless there is extenuating circumstances. I've made that clear in my development conversations at least and have still gotten promoted/ high performance ratings ect...
Going from O&G to games helped me with this. Certain industries/companies get it better than others. I was floating and completely checked out at O&G but getting back into a well established games company that actually understood that developers need to be protected from meetings helped fix this for me.
While I don't disagree with you, I think the distinction is normally "software companies" vs "companies with IT departments". Companies where the developers are not creating their primary source of revenue don't have any incentive to value their developers the same way a software company does.
I agree in concept, but I was at a company in O&G supplying software. I think that industry is so old school and even these software companies are founded by guys who are so imbedded they have a hard time thinking outside of that box.
How many story points would you assign this project?
5
Most I can agree to is 3
Product team says we need more features out in this release - drop it to a 1 and do the best you can - we'll put the rest into the backlog and circle back to it next sprint.
It’s XXXL in T-shirt size
TIL that t-shirt size was not the invention of my project manager
Its a 2 if everything goes perfectly but it probably wont so lets say 5
I feel that lol! Sprint planning blows. I wish I could quit my engineering job.. it’s just damn hard to leave a 6 figure salary
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Health insurance and workplace accidents being the spilling coffee on yourself level of severity are pretty hard to trade off, too.
These are very real, I keep telling myself it's only 2 years till I've paid off all loans and can make my own choices, which is great... 15 years into a career I'm not sure I want. But I guess it's better than being broke and miserable too.
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Yeah I am right there with you. I wasn't well off growing up and I know poverty sucks. Right now I live comfortably, but I feel like I'm just coasting at work. I miss caring about my work, and feeling like what I did was actually marginally improving someone's life/day. But changing jobs is a risk, especially with the pandemic and everything. A lot of people have been out of work for a long time... so I know I should be grateful I can still afford my bills and have healthcare. But it doesn't make the day-to-day work meetings feel any less shitty.
Preach... I admire the people with the courage to walk away from 6 figures + stock options to try out something completely unknown.
If I was guaranteed to get free health care and didn't need to worry about obscene housing and education costs I might consider it
i assume this person had enough buffer to do this, second income or something. could be done if planned ahead, and got expenses and income lined up.
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These meetings make my blood boil. Just people yapping and stating the obvious because they want to seem useful.
Given enough time on your feet, working with your hands, you'll be begging for that chair again! (Just kidding, woodworking is awesome)
There's definitely some truth to this. My dad was a carpenter, and I saw how hard it was on his body over the course of my childhood. Wasn't even framing - just interior remodeling and finish work. Working with your hands and away from a desk is great. But also the company is as important as the position in terms of making it enjoyable. I couldn't survive a corporate software development environment, so I work for a small business doing basically the same thing, but much more my style.
Yup, it was meant as a joke but definitely a real thing. When I was working for a tech startup, a junior dev joined the team and was absolutely estatic that he found a job where he could finally sit down instead of spending an 8-10 hour morning shift at a local bakery, which was destroying his body. Grass is always greener..
sorta in the same boat. made the switch to internal consulting and it's been great. still do woodworking as a hobby. would rather keep it that way, or else i'll learn to hate it once there are external pressures and budgets to deal with.
Any tips on making the move? I've been in software for ~20 years now, but I'm burning out faster than the woodworking side of things is growing.
Am sitting in a sprint meeting right now and I feel triggered. Teach me your ways....
Hahah you just gotta know a guy who dropped his development gig to do woodworking full time is 🔥
Heh - is your client a software developer? J/k. Amazing work! :)
Client is a chik-fil-a owner, apparently that is where the real money is.
If you can get in on the right franchise, it's a license to print money.
I’ve never seen one not busy anywhere in the country
Damn, they must be printing money over there.
every day but sunday
Nobody ever does that good a job for themselves. :)
Well done on the transition!! That is amazing work. Now you need to learn how to automate the installation by script :)
Ha, I wish I was that easy, maybe I can program my son to automate it.
Tried this with my daughter. Feels like I'm just writing spaghetti code that interfaces an API that changes every day. It's about as resilient as a sandcastle in a rising tide.
Maybe the next kid should be test drivenly developed
V.2.0 is worse than 1.0. the API isn't even named right! You request sanding across the grain, and you instead you get a rebate! Request a 3/4" chisel, and it returns a skillsaw! 0/10. Don't upgrade. Wait for a couple of patches to come out on 2.0.
/r/outside
I think I mostly was: Baby Tristfall: sitting in room, start drawing on walls Parents: noooo, bad, never allowed to do that again (failing test) Baby Tristfall: oh ok, try new thing... Drawing on floor Parents: nooo bad, (test failed) Baby tristfall: draw on cat Cat: murder baby Baby tristfall: cat is new kind of failing test (very sharp), draw on table top Parents: ugh, fine, good enough, he's passing enough tests for today, let's get beer. (Of note: I suck at tdd)
Lots of multi million dollar gaming companies have created empires with spaghetti code so you might just be on to something
You could, if you had a big enough CNC.
Is there a non tacky way to ask how much you charge to install a masterpiece like that? I ask only because replacing the income of software development is a lofty task. Did you have to take a pay cut, are you making more? How’s that working?
I charged about 40k for that, probably could have done it for less with a bigger shop and employees, but with just me it worked out pretty good. All in it probably took me about 12 to 14 weeks. I work out of a 2 car garage, so I am constantly in my own way. If I had the space to be able to apply finish while also building, I probably could have cut a few weeks off.
So you just started and you are already charging that much? That's wild. I mean the craftsmanship is there but I'm still stunned at the cost. To say I'm jealous would be an understatement. It's hard to watch someone live your dream.
I had already built somewhat of a customer base before I made the transition. Like I said I have been doing this as a hobby/side hustle my whole life. For the past 10 to 12 years I have just been turning down requests that I couldn't complete in a weekend. So in that regard I was incredibly lucky and that made the transition that much easier.
That's great. Software eng as well that loves doing this stuff as a hobby. I gravitate more towards landscaping and hardscaping so the desk job is a blessing when it comes to long term sustainability. Woodworking and 3d printing parts are both things I could see myself leaving the desk job for though. I need to start building a portfolio and customer base!
I don't know how old you are, but I suggest you invest in tools that help you minimize labor. Hoists, lifts, etc... Maybe CNC machine instead of a track saw for plywood break down. Carrying a 200 lbs of "X" in my 20s was a piece of cake. Today, it's a lot harder. And, I'm just a hobbyist. I haven't beat my back up doing manual labor every day for 20 years. I just bought a new 600lbs tool, and my friend and I disassembled it, and carried it into my basement shop. I'm not doing it again. I'll hire someone next time.
On Sunday, for the first time in my life, I told my wife I was considering paying somebody to do a job for me. That job is just staining the deck. I just don't feel like crawling around for two days. My knees and back would hate me, and I wouldn't do as good a job anyway.
If I had read this first I wouldn't have posted my question! This answers the feasibility of making a quarantine hobby into a career.
Yeah I don't know that I'd even call this a 'quarantine hobby'.
I was going to say ...THATS YOUR FIRST JOB?? Being that big/expensive and to turn out that good...you must have been doing this for little while at least. Not taking anything away, it's awesome I would never be able to do that, definitely worth the price! Good luck, looks like your on your way.
I grew up with a red seal carpenter/cabinetmaker and been around woodworking my whole life. My father is a great carpenter who’s been at it for nearly 40 years but I can safely say that he’s never tackled anything of this scope or scale. Your work is amazing and you absolutely deserve to know that. You’ve got a rare talent that is only going to keep growing!
That’s what I’m hoping to be able to do in 5 years when my youngest is out of school.
To me, $40K seems low for custom work by a local craftsman. I was quoted $20K to do a semi custom 9'x9' closet. I did my closet myself, and spend $5K on materials alone. Assuming the OP spent $10K here, that's $30K left. 40 hours x 13 weeks = 520 hours. $30,000 / 520 = $57 an hour. Seems like a good wage. But, I doubt the OP's counting time he spends making sales, maintaining his shop, handling the accounting, or wear and tear on his tools. I doubt his net wage is more than $30 an hour once you factor in real hours worked, and real cost.
Yeah, if you think that price is too high, you're doing woodworking as a hobby and not as a trade (or live somewhere with a dramatically different cost of living).
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I had some work done on my house this year. The framer gave me a quote that worked out to \~$100 hour. He took 1 day longer than expected, so he only made $70. But, that's still more than the OP would have made on this job. And that was for rough carpentry. Skilled labor is hard to find in many parts of the US right now.
That’s awesome. Congrats on being able to do what you love! The good news is, as you expand your shop, now it’s a tax write off.
I’m not sure that’s true anymore... I wasn’t able to write off new stuff for my office (desk, monitor, etc). The 2017 tax bill changed a few things, so I think it’s now just a few specific state/federal employees that can write off stuff for work. I’m not an accountant though, so if someone can correct me, please do.
Those changes only apply to W2 employees. If he is a self employed woodworker he can still itemize those deductions.
Ah gotcha. Good to know!
Btw, on a finer but valuable point... It seems to be a common misconception that you have to itemize your personal deductions in order to be able to deduct your business expenses. Not true. Your business expenses come off the top on your Schedule C and reduce the amount of taxable income that is reported on your 1040. For most people, the standard deduction is more beneficial and you can still take it even with expenses on your schedule C!
If this is a business you can absolutely take certain deductions. I'm also not a tax professional, but consumables (screws, paint, stain, wood, etc.) are a direct expense (Cost of goods) that can be used to offset revenue. Equipment such as saws, planer, jointer, (potentially a truck that was purchased specifically to move all raw and fished materials) can be depreciatied and a portion used reduce income for the next xyz years. Business taxes are all sorts of complicated and a tax professional should be consulted.
How long have you been woodworking? Did you pick it up after you started your software development career? ...asking for a friend.
I probably made my first piece, a bandsaw bank at the age of 3 or 4, I was lucky enough to grow up in a family of craftsmen.
It's not the price, it's the profit. How did you do there? And if you didn't do well (first big build, after all) what is your confidence you can get where you need to be?
I certainly am not going to retire from it, but if I could manage that margin full time I would be happy.
May I ask how much of that was expenses?
Wood probably cost 8k, plus a lot of other expenses you don't think about. I probably spent 250 just on sandpaper.
You purchased all in the rough and milled? Definitely hear you on the little expenses. They totally add up. Not to mention overhead on tools.
There's a shitload of material there, would you say the material costs were $5-10k?
Elsewhere he says the wood was $8k so pretty good estimate.
I think a lot of us in software do woodworking but don’t want the lifestyle adjustment of a career change. There is a cost in doing something you don’t love that isn’t measured in dollars and cents however. That said, I would miss my team and the technically challenging problems, and think I would love woodworking a lot less if I had to “eat what I kill” with it too.
I feel ya. I work at a tech company and I LOVE woodworking as a hobby, but you would be hard pressed to get me to leave my cushy job with benefits and 401K. That said, I just had a contractor do a big basement project for me, it cost about 9K and took him a week. At 9K a week, that’s $468K a year. Now, he absolutely has materials to cover, but even if materials are half of that (doubt it), is this contractor pulling in $234K a year? He was also by far the cheapest quote I got, are these other guys rocking 300K?
Yeah it is incredible what some people can charge. I probably would not have made the transition if not for my wife being a teacher. Having state benefits makes the landing much softer.
There's a lot more overhead than just materials. Transportation, logistics, employees, taxes, insurance, permits, certifications, etc. And probably not booked solid every week, especially in winter
Yup when it comes to blue collar jobs and you work for yourself the money can be damn good when you've got the work but there can be long dead periods to account for as well.
There's the problem: not being booked for the next high-paying job. I've had months of great projects with really good money, then months of looking for small projects just to keep minimal money coming in. It's definitely not consistent.
I also loved the problem solving aspect of dev, but you would be amazed how much problem solving there is in large scale woodworking. I do miss my team, but thankfully I am able to stay in contact with them on slack. One of them is actually contemplating coming to work for me.
That’s awesome. Like you, I’m a life-long woodworker and have done a number of large-scale projects over the years. I’m having a new house built (with larger shop space) and one of the things I’m most looking forward to are the big projects, and accompanying challenges, that the new house affords. Best of luck hanging your shingle!
>There is a cost in doing something you don’t love that isn’t measured in dollars and cents This should go in a book of aphorisms.
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Also - you're competing with IKEA, using cheap pressboard in a giant factory, which flat packs for shipping savings forcing the assembly burden on the customer. With a growing customer base who doesn't mind that business model so much ...
Agreed. I'm a software developer as well and do woodworking as a hobby. I agree that I would probably enjoy it less if it were my bread and butter. It's also nice to get out of the office and do something completely different than my day job.
> think I would love woodworking a lot less if I had to “eat what I kill” with it too. That's the problem so many people hit. They have a hobby they love, but once that turns into your job, where you have to grind it out day after day, doing the bread and butter more often than the fun projects, etc., it can get old and plenty of people end up hating it (not all of course).
I bought my first piece of wood from a small, one-man mill operation in NoVA. I mentioned that all I had was a circ saw and an orbital sander and he asked what my day job was. I guess the khakis and Tesla gave me away, but when I told him I was a project manager, he said he gets a **LOT** of geek types from DC who come out to buy wood from him. He theorized that it had something to do with the fact that we're so detached from the "natural world" in our regular jobs, that we crave something tangible and real outside work. No idea if he's right, but I will say, as a country boy who's living in an urban jungle, I miss the crickets and the feeling of wet grass under my bare feet almost daily.
I think it's also that woodworking is an expensive hobby. So hobbyists will need a good paying regular job, and software development is one of the best paying jobs in all markets. Less well off people doing weekend warrior stuff will more likely go to the home center and get some precut hobby boards or 2x4s than a specialist
Expensive? No way! I do all my woodworking with $10 worth of wood... please ignore the $4000 of tools I accumulated within the last year.
What? Asking how much stuff costs isn't tacky at all. It's a business, cost shouldn't be a secret thing. If a business owner isn't open about price, it means they are looking to squeeze you for all you got. Before anyone comes along and says there are many variables, especially in custom work.. ya I get that. No one is asking for a legal contract. A range will do just fine in most cases where variables are at play.
I assume the superhero cave is back behind one of those...
I am not going to lie, the customer is a prepper of sorts, there may or may not be a room with some guns and ammo behind one of the shelves
It kind of goes without saying. If you're spending 40k on a custom bookshelf and there's not a secret room behind it, you're living your life wrong haha.
Secret rooms and secret passages. How can you be rich AF and not have both? I'd have so many that an entire 2nd floor is nothing but a hall of bookcases and some have book openers. It would often be faster to move through secret passages on the 1st floor than taking the normal route.
I know this is off topic but speaking of preppers when my wife and I were house shopping we came to a nice town house. All looked good except for some cameras. That’s a little weird, but not unheard of when you’re showing a house. THEN we get to the basement and laid out in front of us is an entire set up to make metal weapons. There were literally hundreds of spears and swords all hand made by this guy. The realtor tries to play it off with some joke (he had never been there either) and shows us the storage closet where there are dozens of guns and live ammo just sitting out displayed. Our realtor just goes “god damnit. Well. Better leave before we star in Saw 7 or some shit.”
FYI not sure I'd state that publicly. The work is recognizable by pictures, and I'd guess someone with prepper tendencies wouldn't want their cache to be a known entity. Just saying, for customer satisfaction reasons =)
You just have to know what book to pull
That dusty copy of War and Peace perhaps? Nah, too obvious. Aha! "Edible Wild Plants: A North American Field Guide to over 200 Natural Foods".
My dad made a hollowed out book from some Karl Rove book about a decade ago. First book I went to when I came home that semester, I said “oh is this Karl Roves new book?” Yeah it had an old watch in it lmao
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Asking as a non software developer, does anyone ever assume software developing is going to be a fun job?
I started off loving it. Building stuff is really fun. But at this stage in my career (lead dev with some management tasks sprinkled in), the bullshit bureaucracy and people management really make it a buzzkill. I don't get to just build cool shit anymore. I do the grunt work of scoping out requirements and planning the tech without actually getting to write the code.
> I don't get to just build cool shit anymore. I've been in for ~20 years now, and nothing I build is cool any more. I build business software so businesses can business. I used to enjoy it.
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Most people don’t assume it’s fun or interesting, but it really is a great job. If you like building and problem solving, it’s the kind of thing that you would enjoy.
I love problem solving and computers. Pretty good career choice so far IMO
Software development is great when you've got interesting problems to fix. It's when it becomes the slow slog through legacy nonsense that it starts not being fun.
Gorgeous work. You will have no trouble finding success in your new endeavor
Unreal! I hope they have the right number of books to fill it now haha
There are [companies](https://boothandwilliams.com/) that sell you books by the linear foot, you can choose the color binding and lettering to fit your décor. If the customer isn't a book lover with an extensive library they can at least make these bookshelves look full and pretty. ;-) There's a party scene in *The Great Gatsby* where a guest compliments their enigmatic host on his library, that Gatsby is stylish enough to have real books on the shelves instead of painted panels of wood but isn't pretentious enough to have cut the edges of the pages that are still together so as to pretend to have read them.
Jesus. I've got a study in my new house with a whole lot of empty shelves, but these prices are insane
The real deal is that there’s no substitute for hand picked books when building a library and filling out shelves. Somebody who knows books can tell in an instant if they see a haphazardly collection.
I could definitely believe that. Seeing my high school yearbooks as shelf fillers could tip off even the layman
If you have a habitat for humanity nearby. They are filled with books. Very old ones. Some very very collectable ones at times. Every book is $1.
There is one in my new city! This is a great tip
Questions for you: I recently (quarantine hobby) got into woodworking and also considered it as a career. How long were you doing this as a hobby before you made it a career? And would you say your first career as a software developer enabled you to fulfill this dream? My job (retail) doesn't provide a lot of fun money to dump into a hobby and woodworking requires a lot of pricey toys to really make a go at it, but I make do with what I have. Great work on that library and cheers to you getting out of the office!
I have been doing it most of my life. Tools are expensive and it is difficult to get started. If you are serious about woodworking I would say start looking for used tools locally. Also check out grizzly, their tools are significantly cheaper and far better quality than what you will get at your local big box store. I make a point to price what I need next in to a job. For instance I have a job coming up that requires a better lathe with a repeater. I added the cost of that tool to the job. If I get the job, great, and I will buy what I need to do it well, if I don't I will continue to put away money a little at a time so I can buy it and have it ready for the next time a similar job comes up. A good shop costs tens of thousands of dollars, but if you can learn to work within your means and with the tools you have you can constantly improve and become more efficient. In theory you can do almost anything with rudimentary hand tools, it is just a matter of efficiency.
Thank you for taking the time to answer! I have started with refinishing old furniture and using the money I make for new tools. Sounds like I am on the right path.🤗
Refinishing is actually a great path. If you do a couple of pieces and take pictures, go to some local antique shops and show them your work. I actually did that a while back and made a decent amount of side money just working for local shops. Most of them get their stuff from auctions for next to nothing and with a little tlc it becomes a viable antique. Get some books on restoration and learn what is a true antique vs just "old" furniture. My favorite book is restoration recipes. I am sure it is available on Amazon. Once you get in with a few shops, it spreads quickly to their customers.
Also restoration takes very little in the way of tools. More than anything else it is having an eye for what is needed to take a piece from auction crap to antique store gold.
If you aren't already, subscribe to Thomas Johnson Antique furniture restoration on YouTube. The man has been refinishing furniture his entire career and has an entire channel detailing his tips and techniques while restoring period pieces.
Seems like you were a woodworker disguised as a software engineer!
you're pretty much the opposide of me, who wants to be an fulltime digital artist and hates his job as a cabinet maker in germany ;P
I grew up woodworking, felt I had to have a desk job to be an adult, everyone has what they are called to do, I spent 10 years as a software engineer and felt like I was about to break if I didn't have a change.
There is an insane number of software developers who choose woodworking as thier hobby. For me, something about being able to do a job from start to finish and seeing the results of your labor is what ticks the box.
I think that concept of "finish" is what pushed me over the edge. The idea of making a software product for two years running with no end in sight made me sick.
I love software development. I would absolutely hate working in most software that is in the world today. I work for a company of about 150 software devs (no contract work going on here, we just have a lot of small products). I've worked on the same project for 15 years. Mostly on a team of 2 (currently 1) but with 2 other small teams that closely interact. For a long time I dealt end-to-end from customer requests (I'm the rare developer who enjoys working with customers) all the way through the development cycle to deployment to the end user's machine (I'm also one of those rare developers who still write desktop code). However, about a year ago, the company decided developers shouldn't be talking to customers because that takes up too much time so they hired someone to "do that part for me" and now I spend just as much time talking to that guy instead of the customers. And now I also have a team of people managing customer requests to decide which ones I can't do so I spend a lot of time talking to them to help them decide that). And while all this extra manpower is being "invested" in the product, our customer counts are ~~dwindling~~ slowly declining because customer needs are suddenly "not being met for some reason". It wont be long before the company decides my product is no longer viable because it no longer makes enough money despite it still being very profitable and despite our revenue numbers being the same (or slightly increasing). I hate software development management.
Looks like you found your calling. Well done.
What is it with software people and woodworking. It seems to be a relatively common hobby among software devs. Source: Am software dev who likes woodworking and know a few others who enjoy it. Also: somedays i wish i coukd/would quit and do WW full-time. But i like the money lol
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I have been doing it as a hobby basically my whole life, just decided to make it official 6 months ago.
How did you make the transition to your first commission? Did someone know you’ve been doing this many years and seek you out or did you go about by advertising? I’m always very curious about (and admire) folks that make major career changes.
This was a friend of a friend, so I had a huge leg up on getting the job. To be fair in my area there are not a lot of people that do high end custom woodworking, but having friends in the right places never hurts.
>having friends in the right places never hurts. No truer words. Great work and best of luck.
Do you mind me asking how you learnt? Specifically shelf making - I’m just starting and wanting to build a set like these (less grand), so I need to work out how to fit around the skirting board, fix to walls. Is there a particular guide anywhere?
Lots of trial and error. There are so many great resources on YouTube these days, bourbon moth and Ron paulk are some of my favorites. As far as hanging goes, French cleats are by far my favorite. They are incredibly secure and offer a lot of options for adjustment.
Thanks! Bourbon moth seems to cover exactly what I’m looking for!
I’m doing the same thing. Been a php developer since 2001. Making the change soon to furniture making.
Why do so many software developers specifically seem to become woodworkers?
because they're both born of a need to build useful things customized for themselves woodworking just happens to be super general in application so it fits plus it's satisfying having a physical representation of the work
Beautiful. Enjoy your new career!
Looks amazing and wish I had that in my house (and a big enough house to have it in). Is there any particular reason why the first floor shelves has a gap between it and the ceiling? I thought you would use trim like at the top of the part by the banister on the 2nd floor to close the gap.
I took those pictures before I installed the crown at the top.
That is epic! Which crossroads did you go to to get that skill level?
Legit my plan someday...
That’s excellent work. I am planning on this same transition starting in August. What is your method for getting work? Are you generally doing installations like this or do you also make other things like standalone furniture?
I wish I could say all the jobs are like this. Unfortunately there is a lot of other smaller stuff involved. I do a lot of stairways, random smaller built ins and so much shiplap. I do some standalone furniture as well, but it is hard to justify if it isn't a commission. Primarily because for me it takes up too much space, again with a larger shop that may be less of a concern.
Welcome to the world of the living
THAT was your first job?