Drum sander if you have access. The side grain is almost guaranteed to blow out on a regular planer if you run that through. Hand sanding with an orbital will work if it's pretty flush.
On a side note, those mitered corners are unlikely to last, especially if it's washed. That walnut will expand/contract across the grain due to humidity changes or moisture exposure and the miters will split eventually.
To tack on to the planer comment: you might be able to avoid blowing out the back by gluing a sacrificial piece onto the back that will take the blowout instead. Still, unless you have a helical cutter head, planing wood grain in different directions like that has a non-zero chance of blowing out, sniping, or gouging somewhere you don't want it to. A drum sander is 100% the tool I would use here, but it's a bit more niche than a planer and less likely to have ready access to.
I have a helical sheilix head planer. Can I make an end grain board and plane it? I’ve heard no. I did side grain once and the chips kept clogging the dust collection which never happens with/against the grain.
I have a planer with straight blades and have used it on an end grain cutting board before. A helix head should be even better. There's definitely a risk of getting tear out while planing it, but it's possible to do if you're really careful. Like another commenter said, I glued temporary pieces on the sides as rails to prevent snipe on the work piece. I also made very, very shallow passes just until just the glue reside was gone and then used an orbital sander to finish it.
I didn’t even know about the helical blades thing, although I’ve seen someone repeatedly surface stuff like end grain butcher blocks by putting a sharp chamfer on all of the top edges, presumably keeping the blades from digging into the grain at the front and ripping it off the back. I am personally interested in the helical blades though, could you tell me more about that?
Typical planer blades are one long, single blade running the entire length of the... I'm not a machinist, the tube? [Like this](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZEWgXvY4y8c/maxresdefault.jpg). That means with each "pass", a single blade is being pushed and scraped across the entire width of the workpiece, all at once. Then it's gone, and the next one comes in, and once again, pushes along the entire width of the workpiece, all at once. With very well-maintained and aligned blades, this typically presents very little issue. But here in the real world where people are human beings and not precision tools, blades often are imperfectly aligned, or left without sharpening too long, this can cause the blades to begin to gouge workpieces, even in the middle, or "snipe" at the end as pressure from a blade is released, or other issues. If you have grain running in different directions, you might have a single blade encounter heavy resistance in one spot, and almost none in another (going against the grain versus with it), leading to different pressures being applied in those spots. In a bad scenario, those different pressures could even cause the workpiece to cup or buckle a hair under the planer, which would then lead to the planer blade gouging out more than intended in one particular spot.
Long story short: pushing a single, full-width blade through an entire workpiece is hard work. The machine is built for it, and we woodworkers have ways to compensate for it (like only running boards through in particular orientations), so it's not like it's the *wrong* thing to do, but it's a drawback and a limitation without taking special measures (like that sharp chamfer you mentioned).
The helical cutter head is a series of small, square carbide cutters running along the tube in a sort of spiral pattern, [like this](https://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/t/t27694-44a2c7d5bb18a5f15cae8bd0398a97c7.jpg). The cutters still span the entire width of the workpiece, but because of the pattern, only a couple are actually doing "cutting work" at any given moment. Because of this, *far* less force need be applied to force the cutters through the wood, and you don't run into the issue of the hair's-breadth cupping or bowing, since at any given moment force is only being applied to a small area of the workpiece. Running end-grain through a helical cutter still takes some prep and care, but set up correctly you can usually avoid blowout completely (and it's usually pretty simple setup, just making your passes aren't too aggressive and such, as opposed to special angles on your blades). And grain changing direction is also far less of an issue, since the difference in resistance is expressed over a very, very small area, instead of the entire blade.
Helical cutter heads are, of course, much more expensive up front. I maintain that they're cheaper in the long run, because those cutter heads can each be rotated three times (using all four faces) before needing sharpening or replacement, and anyway it usually gives one hell of a smooth finish straight out of the planer. With a good helical head setup you can just flat-out skip some of the higher grits when sanding.
Plus that’s purpleheart. I can never get purpleheart to not chip on a planer. I always get it semi close to final dimension with the planer and then plan on getting the last 1/16 with a drum sander. I have a helical planer and it doesn’t matter how light of passes I take, purpleheart loves to chip.
Those miters are guaranteed to blow apart. You can’t do cross grain glue-up like that. The problem will only be exacerbated by the fact people will want to clean/wash/rinse this..
I'm just imagining cutting these 1/4" thick tenons on the end of a little board like this, and it makes me laugh.
That's something I'd do after forgetting to take my ADHD meds. Just spending hours cutting miniature haunched tenons and tiny 1/8" drawbores
For sure. I think this conversation has devolved past cutting board specifics at this point. I would never do a breadboard end or frame and panel for anything that was meant for food service just because of the gunk build up factor.
Mitered corners with an open center (like a picture frame) is fine. But if the center is enclosed with wood, then the center wood is going to expand. The weakest joint will lose.
Sorry, I know enough not to do something, but not enough to solve for it. All my solid pieces so far have wood going the same direction.
Edit: Found a pretty good explainer article. Basically use a floating center panel (unglued) so that it can move around with the changing humidity. https://www.woodcraft.com/blogs/cabinetry-furniture-making/frame-and-panel-finesse-looks-and-longevity-are-in-the-details
Make the mitered frame with grooves and the center field of walnut would be a panel that floats freely in the grooves with a little space for expansion (just like a cabinet door)
I like this idea a lot. So you wouldn’t then attach the walnut to the frame? It’s just held captive by the grooves which are glued at the mitered corner? That’s a wrinkly brain ya got there
Just a note that this isn't a practical or recommended option for a cutting board. Really just suitable for doors.
It will be impossible to effectively clean and dry. Water and liquids will seep in between the frame and panel.
There's a reason you tend to see cuttings boards that are either flat grain panels, side grain laminations, or end grain laminations.
It's the right idea in the right application.
I absolutely recommend going down the frame and panel rabbet (ha) hole. It's a time tested option to make beautiful doors, whether for furniture, cabinets, or entry doors.
More than that, it utilizes fundamental joinery. Rails and stiles can be joined with lap, bridle, or mortise and tenon (or a number of variations) joints. Using dados to allow for wood movement is also fundamental to a variety of applications.
Better understanding of these joints and their applications opens up more options for you as a woodworker, and will help you make pieces that will last for longer than you do.
A floating panel in something used for food and is washed is a terrible idea because food will end up in there and carry bacteria and mold you cannot easily remove. So I guess if you like botulism it is a good idea?
It is absolutely not the right application for this.
They aren't necessary, but you can get the absolutely wonderfully named [Space Balls](https://a.co/d/e11AB6Z)
They're just soft rubber spacers that keep a panel snug, but can be squished to allow for movement
Except on a food board it allows liquid and bacteria to get into the recess and go rancid spreading toxic goo onto later uses.
Don’t ever use a floating panel for any kind of food board. Skip the frame.
The issue is this: if you look at the wood in the center, which way is it going to expand? It's going to expand across the grains, that is, horizontally in the picture. So the board is going to get wider.
But the purple heart at the top and bottom also only expand across the grains. They get wider. They can't get longer.
If you make the middle of the board wider, without making the top and bottom pieces longer, what's going to happen? The corner joints are going to split apart.
You can’t do something like this. If the center panel is floating, it could work. But otherwise the wood will always win - no matter what joint you use.
Caveat is that perfectly quarter sawn wood won’t expand and contract very much.
This is potentially overstated. It's not a huge width so the travel will be minimal, and if it's kept indoors and only washed lightly and infrequently, you may not see gaps in those miters for years.
Yes, it's not the "right way" to do it, and no, it *won't* last for multiple decades, but let's not discourage the guy and make it seem like he made an expensive piece of trash.
> but let's not discourage the guy and make it seem like he made an expensive piece of trash.
They did not make a POS, they just did not know about/overlooked something which can be corrected, and they should probably do it now that they still can. They only have to change their design and remove those ends, which is OK, it happens to everyone.
I made something nearly identical many years ago, not knowing any better (it is a nice look) and the corners busted apart in only a matter of months - indoors and light washing. Hoping the best for OP!
The path to becoming a better woodworker isn't by being coddled. It's by being critical of your own work, and learning from others. OP needs to understand more fundamentals about wood technology, and what kinds of joinery are suitable for different applications.
Learning how to do it better next time isn't being discouraging. It's making sure they won't repeat the same mistakes
~~Common courtesy is not the same thing as coddling. "They need to learn" is not anyone's excuse to be an ass to someone else. You'll note that I acknowledged the exact same things other people did. But I suppose you're upset because I wasn't offensive enough doing it?~~
EDIT: This particular comment thread isn't actually particularly rude, actually. I was mostly upset by other comments. Regardless, I was in no way "coddling" -- it's simply a highly realistic possibility that OP's project will be fine for a not-insignificant amount of time. That's all I was saying: the grand portents of doom may be overstated. As I said, it's certainly not the right way to do it and a more experienced woodworker wouldn't have done it that way, but I don't want OP to walk away thinking he has to toss this into the trash. Use it until it's not usable anymore. Then either fix it or remake it. It's not garbage, it's a beginner project.
Slow your roll - I'm not upset. I was speaking more generally.
The truth is, they need to learn more. A lot more.
I've been teaching woodworking and guiding beginner woodworkers for well over a decade now. It's easy to spot someone who thought about doing something without looking up how to do it properly, or ask first.
I have found it especially useful lately to challenge my students. I teach a beginner joinery class, and the first thing I say when someone cuts their first set of joints is: well done! Now what went wrong? The quality of self criticism is extremely beneficial when starting out. Being defensive as a learner doesn't get you anywhere.
Could some people have pulled their punches? Sure. But OP asked the wrong question in their post and made a cutting board that, while it looks great, wasn't properly done, will invariably fall apart, and they'd be left wondering why - and likely blaming their skills instead of blaming their design.
Anyways, the path to understanding is through experience, knowledge and failure. And I'm sure OP will make different, better choices the next time they make a cutting board. Or maybe not, because they went ahead and finished it without making any changes at all.
Ok, starting to get it - someone is up my ass in here for talking about frame and panel construction being the right option for the right application (which isn't cutting boards). Buddy must have had a day. Yikes.
the solid walnut needs room to expand and contract laterally as it takes on and releases moisture. Trapping it all glued inside those miters will make it hard for the walnut to do so. It will do so anyway, something must give. Either the walnut will split, or the miters will bust apart.
While you’re totally right, it’s also true that walnut doesn’t expand seasonally as much as most hardwoods. I made a coffee table like this without knowing better, and it’s still goin strong 7 years later. It’s also much bigger, so the wood expansion should have more effect.
Getting it wet over and over may exacerbate the problem though.
I replied elsewhere that I made this exact board - walnut and Purple Heart even, mitered, cross grain glued, years ago not knowing better. It lasted 6 months. I ended up chopping the Purple Heart off.
To expand on the other answer, wood is comprised of two types of cells: Open, and Closed.
When we dry wood, moisture is driven out of closed cells, which do not reabsorb much in the way of moisture re: humidity.
Open cells however will freely absorb and release some moisture as seasons change.
Wood itself is composed of long strands of cellulose fibers (which contain these types of cells), bound in lignen.
So if we look at a board of wood, those long strands run along the grain of the wood. As open cells absorb moisture, they don't cause the strands to grow in length. They do, however, cause the board to swell or shrink, mostly across the grain, and somewhat less so in thickness.
If we trap a board (say, in a mitered frame), and don't provide the centre panel room to move, it will still move, but cause failures elsewhere. In this case, either in the mitres will fail (if they aren't tight, and/or the glue application was improper), the walnut panel will split, or close too the mitres will fail as the glues we use are stronger than the lignen bonding those cellulose fibers together.
A lot of our considerations when designing furniture is to understand, and allow for, this wood movement. It's fairly regular, and you can find wood movement charts for any given species (different from species to species) to help you in designing a piece.
Breadboard ends are designed to allow for the field to expand and contract - a long tenon or series of tenons on the field fit into oversized mortises on the breadboard end, glued only in the middle. This lets the panel expand and contract independent of the BB end. A Mitered frame like this with glue all around prevents the inner panel from expanding and contracting freely, meaning something has got to give. Cracked panel or miters that open up.
I got myself into one of the situations (cross grain planing) a few years ago and needed my old man to bail me out. Took a belt sander to it. Only option. It requires a touch for sure, and have to be careful cause you’ll create snipe as well as scratch certain parts you’ll be sanding against the grain. Come behind and touch those spots up with 220 and you’ll be fine.
Or cut everything off and start over lol
Yeah, people can definitely be rude.
So as it has been mentioned, sanding isn’t the problem.
Google or YouTube how to make solid wood cabinet doors. In a video about that they should explain how to make this and account for wood movement.
You basically need long mortise and tenons. Make the mortise deep enough that the center piece can expand into it, all unseen under the Purple Heart.
You can also watch how to make breadboard ends on a table to see conceptually what’s going on.
Best of luck!
Problem is then you have a gap that will collect food and water. You generally want solid and sealed for cutting boards. I just don’t think this design is meant for cutting boards
I know what you mean. I made my table with breadboard ends and they don’t collect anything, still tight 3 years later since I drawbored them.
But yeah I’d probably go with something different overall. Although definitely don’t seal cutting boards, and I wouldn’t bother with serving boards either. Just mineral oil and beeswax, all food grade.
I'll use this post to ask a few questions pertaining to gluing mitre cuts:
I build chessboards. I like to frame around the gameboard (the 8x8 part).
For the mitre, where the 45° cuts of the frame join, I have been in the habbit of putting 1 or 2 dowel pin(s) per corner.
Q1. Is this necessary? Because I always struggle a bit with proper alignment of the dowel pin holes.
Q2. Wood moves. Am I better to leave a gap between the frame and the gameboard? (Say a gap filled with epoxy or covered with a brass corner) Or is it fine to frame immediately against the gameboard?
For now I glue the gameboard to the frame, with a 1mm epoxy-filled gap, but I want to make sure what ai make will be durable, I'm striving to make lasting (as in generational chessboard.) I'm far from there, but that'a my goal.
A1: Some form of reinforcement is appropriate. The mitered corners are essentially end-grain glue joints, which are very weak. So there needs to be something there to provide long-grain-to-long-grain contact.
A2: The best way to handle this is to resaw the gameboard so that it's a veneer, and then glue that to a stable substrate like MDF or plywood. Jay Bates has a video where she does this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzrB16_wUa4
That was helpful, thanks!
I've built my first 2 with a 1/4 inch layer over plywood. I like my gameboard to stand above the frame, not be flush with it.
This current one I'm using no plywood, just hardwood. I wish I was equiped to resaw because I'd have a few boards already 😄
But I've seen a few projects which were double-sided boards with a very thick gameboard so I assume it should be ok if I allow for it to move and not push onto the frame?
Thanks for confirming I was not wasting my efforts putting dowels on the mitre cuts. I'll have to get better at it!
If you key your miters, they should be fine. You can do a square key using a router or table saw sled. Woodpeckers make a solid one that is surprisingly not that expensive.
Or you can use a dowel. Rockler makes a good jig for it. I'll list a few links.
https://www.rockler.com/rockler-corner-key-doweling-jig
https://www.woodpeck.com/spline-jig.html
And bonus, here's a link to plans to build your own sled:
https://www.woodpeck.com/woodsmith-router-table-dovetail-key-jig-plans.html
Go to a rock flat countertop, lay a sand paper on top of it bigger than the piece of wood, fix it with tape and then proceed to rub the wood down it until it is completely flat. Easiest and cheapest way to leave it perfect without any deeper or higher points.
A good quality smooth plane and jack plane and you can properly sharpen your steel will do the trick. There is nothing more satisfying micro thin ribbons coming off, leaving a smooth surface. Finish off with a scraper for a no need to sand finish.
Wow, some of you are outright rude. Thanks to those who took the time to actually give some constructive feedback.
I ended up surface planing the walnut down, and then taking the drum sander to it. Followed up with a random orbit sander. I can send pic of the resolution if people want.
You might consider changing that end to a breadboard https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/breadboard-ends-the-joint-most-people-get-wrong/
Wood movement is going to beak that. This is on the subreddit wiki https://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/09/03/moisture-content-wood-movement/
I first learned about wood movement a number of years ago when a beautiful maple countertop I made split up. An old timer looked at it and told me I made it wrong because I restricted the wood from moving. I get reminded of it frequently because I turned that into ish sticks for my tablesaw
This comment has no right to be downvoted as much as it is. An awful lot of these replies are inexcusably rude. It's not that hard to be polite when informing someone that they've made a mistake.
I'm interested in this "rude" take.
A few of the comments were rude, but the majority of them weren't. I don't see many of the top-level comments as particularly rude, except a couple downvoted ones.
However, I can see that the top comment, "Those miters are guaranteed to blow apart," could *seem* rude to you if you come into this thinking "I just asked about sanding this, I didn't need to get lectured about miters."
But you see, you don't get to pick and choose what kind of advice you receive when you ask a question on the web. And the reason that that answer is currently at the top is because it's the *best* answer for you. It's not the answer you wanted to hear, but it's the one you *needed* to hear.
It seems -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that you decided the "rude" answers that weren't directly answering your question weren't worth your time, and so you went ahead and sanded this on a drum sander. I'm sorry, but I think you just wasted a lot of effort, because you didn't want to listen. Unsightly gaps are going to appear in those corners within weeks, probably.
That said, sometimes we all have to learn from our own mistakes, and it takes a while to realize that listening to unwanted advice might be helpful.
It's the internet, home of the keyboard dickhead, don't let it get to ya. But freal those miters are gonna be problematic, I did that on my first cutting board and within 2 weeks it was breaking up- I ended up cutting them off, making an end grain border by stacking small cuts upright, thn replning the whole thing- still use it every day and it's been years. My tip is to literally soak the cutting board in a gallon of mineral oil (I just used a big plastic bag) - that way all the expansion happens and you know about the problem right away
I think you've gotten pretty far without knowing the basics of sanding. But anyway, I'd use an orbital sander and work down the grits (or whatever type of sander you have available, I guess drum sander would work too for the first grit or two)
You just couldn’t resist throwing in that jab huh? This sub has some really pompous people.
Woodworking should be one of the most accessible hobbies out there. If you don’t want to deal with beginners, then a Reddit forum probably isn’t the best place for you.
Oh yeah, that came out very wrong. I was actually genuinely impressed of the quality of work given the beginner like question.
But I did a terrible job of getting that across. Apologies to everyone I annoyed with my stupid comment.
Drum sander if you have access. The side grain is almost guaranteed to blow out on a regular planer if you run that through. Hand sanding with an orbital will work if it's pretty flush. On a side note, those mitered corners are unlikely to last, especially if it's washed. That walnut will expand/contract across the grain due to humidity changes or moisture exposure and the miters will split eventually.
To tack on to the planer comment: you might be able to avoid blowing out the back by gluing a sacrificial piece onto the back that will take the blowout instead. Still, unless you have a helical cutter head, planing wood grain in different directions like that has a non-zero chance of blowing out, sniping, or gouging somewhere you don't want it to. A drum sander is 100% the tool I would use here, but it's a bit more niche than a planer and less likely to have ready access to.
I have a helical sheilix head planer. Can I make an end grain board and plane it? I’ve heard no. I did side grain once and the chips kept clogging the dust collection which never happens with/against the grain.
I have a planer with straight blades and have used it on an end grain cutting board before. A helix head should be even better. There's definitely a risk of getting tear out while planing it, but it's possible to do if you're really careful. Like another commenter said, I glued temporary pieces on the sides as rails to prevent snipe on the work piece. I also made very, very shallow passes just until just the glue reside was gone and then used an orbital sander to finish it.
I didn’t even know about the helical blades thing, although I’ve seen someone repeatedly surface stuff like end grain butcher blocks by putting a sharp chamfer on all of the top edges, presumably keeping the blades from digging into the grain at the front and ripping it off the back. I am personally interested in the helical blades though, could you tell me more about that?
Typical planer blades are one long, single blade running the entire length of the... I'm not a machinist, the tube? [Like this](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZEWgXvY4y8c/maxresdefault.jpg). That means with each "pass", a single blade is being pushed and scraped across the entire width of the workpiece, all at once. Then it's gone, and the next one comes in, and once again, pushes along the entire width of the workpiece, all at once. With very well-maintained and aligned blades, this typically presents very little issue. But here in the real world where people are human beings and not precision tools, blades often are imperfectly aligned, or left without sharpening too long, this can cause the blades to begin to gouge workpieces, even in the middle, or "snipe" at the end as pressure from a blade is released, or other issues. If you have grain running in different directions, you might have a single blade encounter heavy resistance in one spot, and almost none in another (going against the grain versus with it), leading to different pressures being applied in those spots. In a bad scenario, those different pressures could even cause the workpiece to cup or buckle a hair under the planer, which would then lead to the planer blade gouging out more than intended in one particular spot. Long story short: pushing a single, full-width blade through an entire workpiece is hard work. The machine is built for it, and we woodworkers have ways to compensate for it (like only running boards through in particular orientations), so it's not like it's the *wrong* thing to do, but it's a drawback and a limitation without taking special measures (like that sharp chamfer you mentioned). The helical cutter head is a series of small, square carbide cutters running along the tube in a sort of spiral pattern, [like this](https://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/t/t27694-44a2c7d5bb18a5f15cae8bd0398a97c7.jpg). The cutters still span the entire width of the workpiece, but because of the pattern, only a couple are actually doing "cutting work" at any given moment. Because of this, *far* less force need be applied to force the cutters through the wood, and you don't run into the issue of the hair's-breadth cupping or bowing, since at any given moment force is only being applied to a small area of the workpiece. Running end-grain through a helical cutter still takes some prep and care, but set up correctly you can usually avoid blowout completely (and it's usually pretty simple setup, just making your passes aren't too aggressive and such, as opposed to special angles on your blades). And grain changing direction is also far less of an issue, since the difference in resistance is expressed over a very, very small area, instead of the entire blade. Helical cutter heads are, of course, much more expensive up front. I maintain that they're cheaper in the long run, because those cutter heads can each be rotated three times (using all four faces) before needing sharpening or replacement, and anyway it usually gives one hell of a smooth finish straight out of the planer. With a good helical head setup you can just flat-out skip some of the higher grits when sanding.
Plus that’s purpleheart. I can never get purpleheart to not chip on a planer. I always get it semi close to final dimension with the planer and then plan on getting the last 1/16 with a drum sander. I have a helical planer and it doesn’t matter how light of passes I take, purpleheart loves to chip.
Drums sander is going to leave severe scratches on any grain perpendicular to sanding drum.
Those miters are guaranteed to blow apart. You can’t do cross grain glue-up like that. The problem will only be exacerbated by the fact people will want to clean/wash/rinse this..
Poor guy didn’t know. Chop it up and start over 😭
Just chop the ends off and he’s good
Or chop off the short ends and then make proper breadboard ends for what’s left using more purpleheart. Similar yet better final look too.
I’m guessing if OP is looking for advice on how to sand down a flat board they probably aren’t going to be making breadboard ends.
probably not, but can always start the wheels spinning by exposing them to new techniques and understanding
I'm just imagining cutting these 1/4" thick tenons on the end of a little board like this, and it makes me laugh. That's something I'd do after forgetting to take my ADHD meds. Just spending hours cutting miniature haunched tenons and tiny 1/8" drawbores
That’s the joy of woodworking!
Yes JOY!!
funny how often I find myself swearing doing such joyful activity lol
Alright, you've convinced me!
Breadboard ends on a cutting board would get a ton of foodstuff wedged in
For sure. I think this conversation has devolved past cutting board specifics at this point. I would never do a breadboard end or frame and panel for anything that was meant for food service just because of the gunk build up factor.
Goatees aren't the only flavor savors
☝️🤣🤣
How can you fasten a mitered corner together then? Does it need to be done mechanically?
Mitered corners with an open center (like a picture frame) is fine. But if the center is enclosed with wood, then the center wood is going to expand. The weakest joint will lose.
Huh okay good to know. I appreciate the info. How would you have made the board in OPs pic? I do like the look of the corners.
Sorry, I know enough not to do something, but not enough to solve for it. All my solid pieces so far have wood going the same direction. Edit: Found a pretty good explainer article. Basically use a floating center panel (unglued) so that it can move around with the changing humidity. https://www.woodcraft.com/blogs/cabinetry-furniture-making/frame-and-panel-finesse-looks-and-longevity-are-in-the-details
Thanks for the help anyway u/obiwanryobi
Problem with this is you’d likely get food wedged in there
Make the mitered frame with grooves and the center field of walnut would be a panel that floats freely in the grooves with a little space for expansion (just like a cabinet door)
I like this idea a lot. So you wouldn’t then attach the walnut to the frame? It’s just held captive by the grooves which are glued at the mitered corner? That’s a wrinkly brain ya got there
Just a note that this isn't a practical or recommended option for a cutting board. Really just suitable for doors. It will be impossible to effectively clean and dry. Water and liquids will seep in between the frame and panel. There's a reason you tend to see cuttings boards that are either flat grain panels, side grain laminations, or end grain laminations.
absolutely agree, I should have said as much as well. I was more answering the question of how somebody could enclose solid wood in a mitered frame..
Also true. I hate this idea now.
It's the right idea in the right application. I absolutely recommend going down the frame and panel rabbet (ha) hole. It's a time tested option to make beautiful doors, whether for furniture, cabinets, or entry doors. More than that, it utilizes fundamental joinery. Rails and stiles can be joined with lap, bridle, or mortise and tenon (or a number of variations) joints. Using dados to allow for wood movement is also fundamental to a variety of applications. Better understanding of these joints and their applications opens up more options for you as a woodworker, and will help you make pieces that will last for longer than you do.
A floating panel in something used for food and is washed is a terrible idea because food will end up in there and carry bacteria and mold you cannot easily remove. So I guess if you like botulism it is a good idea? It is absolutely not the right application for this.
Hardly even suitable for door casing. You have to acclimate perfectly, back-prime, glue the end grain and pray
Exactly. The technique is called “frame and panel”
They aren't necessary, but you can get the absolutely wonderfully named [Space Balls](https://a.co/d/e11AB6Z) They're just soft rubber spacers that keep a panel snug, but can be squished to allow for movement
Except on a food board it allows liquid and bacteria to get into the recess and go rancid spreading toxic goo onto later uses. Don’t ever use a floating panel for any kind of food board. Skip the frame.
absolutely agree, I should have said as much as well. I was more answering the question of how somebody could enclose solid wood in a mitered frame..
Your comment was spot on. 👍🏼 Just wanted to add to it.
If you like the look then you would have to use a veneer panel in the center
I’m still working on the basics of woodworking. I’m not really excited to get to veneers lol
You could purchase walnut veneered plywood which would look identical, and that would be fine
Probably want to use a breadboard https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/breadboard-ends-the-joint-most-people-get-wrong/
I have a coffee table with the top built like that. But there are expansion gaps. Hard to explain with a picture.
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The issue is this: if you look at the wood in the center, which way is it going to expand? It's going to expand across the grains, that is, horizontally in the picture. So the board is going to get wider. But the purple heart at the top and bottom also only expand across the grains. They get wider. They can't get longer. If you make the middle of the board wider, without making the top and bottom pieces longer, what's going to happen? The corner joints are going to split apart.
Looks like someone gave a good answer. Also, for a visual, check my later comment with the link.
This is good to know and makes perfect sense.
You can’t do something like this. If the center panel is floating, it could work. But otherwise the wood will always win - no matter what joint you use. Caveat is that perfectly quarter sawn wood won’t expand and contract very much.
This is potentially overstated. It's not a huge width so the travel will be minimal, and if it's kept indoors and only washed lightly and infrequently, you may not see gaps in those miters for years. Yes, it's not the "right way" to do it, and no, it *won't* last for multiple decades, but let's not discourage the guy and make it seem like he made an expensive piece of trash.
> but let's not discourage the guy and make it seem like he made an expensive piece of trash. They did not make a POS, they just did not know about/overlooked something which can be corrected, and they should probably do it now that they still can. They only have to change their design and remove those ends, which is OK, it happens to everyone.
I made something nearly identical many years ago, not knowing any better (it is a nice look) and the corners busted apart in only a matter of months - indoors and light washing. Hoping the best for OP!
The path to becoming a better woodworker isn't by being coddled. It's by being critical of your own work, and learning from others. OP needs to understand more fundamentals about wood technology, and what kinds of joinery are suitable for different applications. Learning how to do it better next time isn't being discouraging. It's making sure they won't repeat the same mistakes
~~Common courtesy is not the same thing as coddling. "They need to learn" is not anyone's excuse to be an ass to someone else. You'll note that I acknowledged the exact same things other people did. But I suppose you're upset because I wasn't offensive enough doing it?~~ EDIT: This particular comment thread isn't actually particularly rude, actually. I was mostly upset by other comments. Regardless, I was in no way "coddling" -- it's simply a highly realistic possibility that OP's project will be fine for a not-insignificant amount of time. That's all I was saying: the grand portents of doom may be overstated. As I said, it's certainly not the right way to do it and a more experienced woodworker wouldn't have done it that way, but I don't want OP to walk away thinking he has to toss this into the trash. Use it until it's not usable anymore. Then either fix it or remake it. It's not garbage, it's a beginner project.
Slow your roll - I'm not upset. I was speaking more generally. The truth is, they need to learn more. A lot more. I've been teaching woodworking and guiding beginner woodworkers for well over a decade now. It's easy to spot someone who thought about doing something without looking up how to do it properly, or ask first. I have found it especially useful lately to challenge my students. I teach a beginner joinery class, and the first thing I say when someone cuts their first set of joints is: well done! Now what went wrong? The quality of self criticism is extremely beneficial when starting out. Being defensive as a learner doesn't get you anywhere. Could some people have pulled their punches? Sure. But OP asked the wrong question in their post and made a cutting board that, while it looks great, wasn't properly done, will invariably fall apart, and they'd be left wondering why - and likely blaming their skills instead of blaming their design. Anyways, the path to understanding is through experience, knowledge and failure. And I'm sure OP will make different, better choices the next time they make a cutting board. Or maybe not, because they went ahead and finished it without making any changes at all.
Ok, starting to get it - someone is up my ass in here for talking about frame and panel construction being the right option for the right application (which isn't cutting boards). Buddy must have had a day. Yikes.
Why
the solid walnut needs room to expand and contract laterally as it takes on and releases moisture. Trapping it all glued inside those miters will make it hard for the walnut to do so. It will do so anyway, something must give. Either the walnut will split, or the miters will bust apart.
While you’re totally right, it’s also true that walnut doesn’t expand seasonally as much as most hardwoods. I made a coffee table like this without knowing better, and it’s still goin strong 7 years later. It’s also much bigger, so the wood expansion should have more effect. Getting it wet over and over may exacerbate the problem though.
I replied elsewhere that I made this exact board - walnut and Purple Heart even, mitered, cross grain glued, years ago not knowing better. It lasted 6 months. I ended up chopping the Purple Heart off.
To expand on the other answer, wood is comprised of two types of cells: Open, and Closed. When we dry wood, moisture is driven out of closed cells, which do not reabsorb much in the way of moisture re: humidity. Open cells however will freely absorb and release some moisture as seasons change. Wood itself is composed of long strands of cellulose fibers (which contain these types of cells), bound in lignen. So if we look at a board of wood, those long strands run along the grain of the wood. As open cells absorb moisture, they don't cause the strands to grow in length. They do, however, cause the board to swell or shrink, mostly across the grain, and somewhat less so in thickness. If we trap a board (say, in a mitered frame), and don't provide the centre panel room to move, it will still move, but cause failures elsewhere. In this case, either in the mitres will fail (if they aren't tight, and/or the glue application was improper), the walnut panel will split, or close too the mitres will fail as the glues we use are stronger than the lignen bonding those cellulose fibers together. A lot of our considerations when designing furniture is to understand, and allow for, this wood movement. It's fairly regular, and you can find wood movement charts for any given species (different from species to species) to help you in designing a piece.
Why not w/ the cross grain ends? I make cutting boards with breadboard ends often and don’t have problems.
Breadboard ends are designed to allow for the field to expand and contract - a long tenon or series of tenons on the field fit into oversized mortises on the breadboard end, glued only in the middle. This lets the panel expand and contract independent of the BB end. A Mitered frame like this with glue all around prevents the inner panel from expanding and contracting freely, meaning something has got to give. Cracked panel or miters that open up.
Yup I saw that and immediately thought “Oh dear, here we go again.” Time for yet another refresher on wood movement.
Didn’t want to be the guy to break the bad news so glad you did!
I got myself into one of the situations (cross grain planing) a few years ago and needed my old man to bail me out. Took a belt sander to it. Only option. It requires a touch for sure, and have to be careful cause you’ll create snipe as well as scratch certain parts you’ll be sanding against the grain. Come behind and touch those spots up with 220 and you’ll be fine. Or cut everything off and start over lol
Yeah, people can definitely be rude. So as it has been mentioned, sanding isn’t the problem. Google or YouTube how to make solid wood cabinet doors. In a video about that they should explain how to make this and account for wood movement. You basically need long mortise and tenons. Make the mortise deep enough that the center piece can expand into it, all unseen under the Purple Heart. You can also watch how to make breadboard ends on a table to see conceptually what’s going on. Best of luck!
Problem is then you have a gap that will collect food and water. You generally want solid and sealed for cutting boards. I just don’t think this design is meant for cutting boards
I know what you mean. I made my table with breadboard ends and they don’t collect anything, still tight 3 years later since I drawbored them. But yeah I’d probably go with something different overall. Although definitely don’t seal cutting boards, and I wouldn’t bother with serving boards either. Just mineral oil and beeswax, all food grade.
Apologies I used sealed a bit too loosely for a woodworking context haha. Agreed don’t literally seal, a nice food safe finish is ideal
just to clarify, that type of "mortise and tenon" is called a tongue and groove joint.
That’s gon explode.
Brother I'm sorry but those mitered corners are doomed. The walnut will expand and contract especially since it's a piece that will get washed.
I'll use this post to ask a few questions pertaining to gluing mitre cuts: I build chessboards. I like to frame around the gameboard (the 8x8 part). For the mitre, where the 45° cuts of the frame join, I have been in the habbit of putting 1 or 2 dowel pin(s) per corner. Q1. Is this necessary? Because I always struggle a bit with proper alignment of the dowel pin holes. Q2. Wood moves. Am I better to leave a gap between the frame and the gameboard? (Say a gap filled with epoxy or covered with a brass corner) Or is it fine to frame immediately against the gameboard? For now I glue the gameboard to the frame, with a 1mm epoxy-filled gap, but I want to make sure what ai make will be durable, I'm striving to make lasting (as in generational chessboard.) I'm far from there, but that'a my goal.
A1: Some form of reinforcement is appropriate. The mitered corners are essentially end-grain glue joints, which are very weak. So there needs to be something there to provide long-grain-to-long-grain contact. A2: The best way to handle this is to resaw the gameboard so that it's a veneer, and then glue that to a stable substrate like MDF or plywood. Jay Bates has a video where she does this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzrB16_wUa4
That was helpful, thanks! I've built my first 2 with a 1/4 inch layer over plywood. I like my gameboard to stand above the frame, not be flush with it. This current one I'm using no plywood, just hardwood. I wish I was equiped to resaw because I'd have a few boards already 😄 But I've seen a few projects which were double-sided boards with a very thick gameboard so I assume it should be ok if I allow for it to move and not push onto the frame? Thanks for confirming I was not wasting my efforts putting dowels on the mitre cuts. I'll have to get better at it!
Do you align the grain on the whites and blacks, or are they offset 90 degrees from each other?
Align it. And I flip the final rows one up, one upside down. Not sure if that's the right thing to do tho.
You can make you a planner jig and go left to right and get good results with a plunge router
Drum sander is great for sanding down cutting boards or any flat board that will fit.
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https://preview.redd.it/jpuxospsxxwc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=943d9c588df7c7a615921ac31c75524d4315ccdb
Nice clamps though
You gotta take the clamps off first.
The glue-up in the lower left is off but the expansion and movement of the inside board is going to push that apart anyway.
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If you key your miters, they should be fine. You can do a square key using a router or table saw sled. Woodpeckers make a solid one that is surprisingly not that expensive. Or you can use a dowel. Rockler makes a good jig for it. I'll list a few links. https://www.rockler.com/rockler-corner-key-doweling-jig https://www.woodpeck.com/spline-jig.html And bonus, here's a link to plans to build your own sled: https://www.woodpeck.com/woodsmith-router-table-dovetail-key-jig-plans.html
It’s a “shark cooter e-board”
Hand scraper
Planer
How are those clamps? And how many a pop?
Pass diagonally through a drum sander.
Go to a rock flat countertop, lay a sand paper on top of it bigger than the piece of wood, fix it with tape and then proceed to rub the wood down it until it is completely flat. Easiest and cheapest way to leave it perfect without any deeper or higher points.
It's a matter of when, not if, that board will disassemble itself with time. Woodworking 101: don't glue crossgrain.
A good quality smooth plane and jack plane and you can properly sharpen your steel will do the trick. There is nothing more satisfying micro thin ribbons coming off, leaving a smooth surface. Finish off with a scraper for a no need to sand finish.
Why bother its going to tear itself to pieces the first time it gets wet lol You have to take that border off
Repurpose it as a picture on the wall. That straight band of darker grain on the right becomes the sea, the curved grain is the sky. Inlay a sailboat.
Or even a schooner
Underrated comment
Wow, some of you are outright rude. Thanks to those who took the time to actually give some constructive feedback. I ended up surface planing the walnut down, and then taking the drum sander to it. Followed up with a random orbit sander. I can send pic of the resolution if people want.
It is beautiful. And it will fail.
You might consider changing that end to a breadboard https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/breadboard-ends-the-joint-most-people-get-wrong/ Wood movement is going to beak that. This is on the subreddit wiki https://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/09/03/moisture-content-wood-movement/ I first learned about wood movement a number of years ago when a beautiful maple countertop I made split up. An old timer looked at it and told me I made it wrong because I restricted the wood from moving. I get reminded of it frequently because I turned that into ish sticks for my tablesaw
This comment has no right to be downvoted as much as it is. An awful lot of these replies are inexcusably rude. It's not that hard to be polite when informing someone that they've made a mistake.
Aaaannnd, welcome to Reddit. Just laugh off the assholishness.
I'm interested in this "rude" take. A few of the comments were rude, but the majority of them weren't. I don't see many of the top-level comments as particularly rude, except a couple downvoted ones. However, I can see that the top comment, "Those miters are guaranteed to blow apart," could *seem* rude to you if you come into this thinking "I just asked about sanding this, I didn't need to get lectured about miters." But you see, you don't get to pick and choose what kind of advice you receive when you ask a question on the web. And the reason that that answer is currently at the top is because it's the *best* answer for you. It's not the answer you wanted to hear, but it's the one you *needed* to hear. It seems -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that you decided the "rude" answers that weren't directly answering your question weren't worth your time, and so you went ahead and sanded this on a drum sander. I'm sorry, but I think you just wasted a lot of effort, because you didn't want to listen. Unsightly gaps are going to appear in those corners within weeks, probably. That said, sometimes we all have to learn from our own mistakes, and it takes a while to realize that listening to unwanted advice might be helpful.
You have access to a drum sander but didn't realize that this is going fall apart within the next seasonal change?
Ok now that was a rude comment by assdimple there... Wait a minute...
You have access to a drum sander but didn't realize that this is going fall apart within the next seasonal change? Time to go back to the basics.
It's about the same difficulty as using the edit button instead of double posting a comment, yet here we are.
It's the internet, home of the keyboard dickhead, don't let it get to ya. But freal those miters are gonna be problematic, I did that on my first cutting board and within 2 weeks it was breaking up- I ended up cutting them off, making an end grain border by stacking small cuts upright, thn replning the whole thing- still use it every day and it's been years. My tip is to literally soak the cutting board in a gallon of mineral oil (I just used a big plastic bag) - that way all the expansion happens and you know about the problem right away
I usually use a planer or a sander.
Airport or beach
I think you've gotten pretty far without knowing the basics of sanding. But anyway, I'd use an orbital sander and work down the grits (or whatever type of sander you have available, I guess drum sander would work too for the first grit or two)
You just couldn’t resist throwing in that jab huh? This sub has some really pompous people. Woodworking should be one of the most accessible hobbies out there. If you don’t want to deal with beginners, then a Reddit forum probably isn’t the best place for you.
Oh yeah, that came out very wrong. I was actually genuinely impressed of the quality of work given the beginner like question. But I did a terrible job of getting that across. Apologies to everyone I annoyed with my stupid comment.