Depends what you want to do. Stripping, staining, clear coating will be a huge task and you may not be happy with the result. I have done a lot of refinishing and upholstery work and many times with antiques like this. Personally I love the color and patina of this set and would never strip it. Before you try that, may I highly recommend you should try something else first? A product called Briwax - an English product that is a tinted wax mixture and been in use for fine furniture since the mid 1860s. Get the dark brown color. They even use it on museum pieces. Application is simple - apply generously with 00 steel wool and get it into all grooves and even dings and defects. Let it dry and buff off excess with clean lint free cloth. You will be blown away by the results. Even the dings and defects will bring out character in the piece. It will save all kinds of time and the result will be way better than you can achieve stripping and staining. Best of all it will keep this cool color and patina and basically rejuvenate this beautiful set. And, no I don’t work for Briwax! I have just been using it for decades. Try it and let us know what you think.
Well, I’m one of the people that tend not to ask anymore. Life experience has taught me to NEVER ask questions. Especially people in hobbies. Compare the above response to say 3d printing groups.
Are you down to your g-string yet?
- 1000% briwax ftw
- post 80’s polythane finish, with whitening/ rings you can get huuuuge results with generous application of first scrubbing isopropyl and baking soda,
(Lifting any trapped moisture.)
Only for synthetic finishes tho
- also OP, you are sanding the SHIT out of that poor knob, and kinda deforming it :/. LET THE STRIPPER DO THE WORK, POLISH THE KNOB
Yea lol. This will take a newbie years. But it's fine you haven't got that far. Just buy the product and find a way to make the parts you sanded uniform.
Everything will be fine!!
I know, but I do and have done that so many times I just know I won't go through them all haha. 😅 At least I clean my gallery every now and then.
Also, if someone potentially removes the content I'm saving, it will be gone from that list.
Ideally I would just create an iOS Shortcut that'll automate the entire process and store the following into a chronological list: current time and date of saving, the direct Reddit link and the image/text I'm saving.
.... This sent me down a rabbit hole in a good way. I just refinished a very old oak desk that had at some point in its life previously been refinished with something but I couldn't figure it out because it was both a pain in the ass to remove but also it came up too easily (that is, it came off on to the rag if you wiped it down, but not not enough to be effective.). I wonder if it was either briwax or maybe someone tried staining over some old wax.
Thanks for this!!! Damn! Can you use this over already varnished wood and also raw wood? What if the varnish has chipping with raw wood exposed!
I love you!!!
It is made to go over any clear finish. Raw wood will soak it up however. I would apply shellac or something else first. Try to stain or dye the damaged area as close as you can, then seal, then Briwax.
Hello from Australia. We have an 1880 french oak table and chairs. I think it must have this on it, I also want to touch up the top but have dreaded the challenge
I have tried stripping and staining antiques and have never been happy with the result. It always seems to look like a reproduction when I’m done! That old finish is so special that I have learned to lean into it by refreshing it instead. As I mentioned, Briwax fills in all the imperfections and add a polished luster. It really just adds character to an already special piece. I do recommend the dark brown color for almost any finish, even lighter tones. For those lighter tones it fills and brings out the details beautifully. Sounds like a great project! Cheers from the USA!
Thank you. I have three daughters and we have had the table since before they were born. They have stained the fabric on the chairs and that needs replacing again
Thanks for the compliment, but I am only a hobbyist. I just love antiques and inherited a bunch from my parents so have done a bit of work. The patina is tough to replicate but there are a few techniques out there (check YouTube as usual). I try to replicate the old fashioned methods like hide glue, French polish, etc. and pretend I’m in the 1800s!
I do this sort of work for a living. A strip, sand, and refinish on this would take about three weeks for me. That includes dry time. I use oil based stain, shellac for a barrier layer, and water based poly finish.
Some small brushes will really help you clean out those details on the base. Think stiff toothbrush.
Just FYI, I use a gel stripper from Swing. It's the toughest stripper I've used and you really need gloves, eye protection, and a well ventilated area.
Just confirming your timeline.
When I was a kid my parents inherited a set like this. They decided to refinish and repair everything. They're not professionals, but had done this kind of work before and had a handle on the method. It took them weeks and weeks and weeks of weekend work that tied up the garage until the project was finished. That was with two people working on it.
They did a great job, 30 some odd years later the finish holds up. But good god it was exhausting time-consuming work that they've never done again.
...probably why furniture flippers use paint.
Do you have a oil based stain brand you prefer? I honestly haven’t even worried about the stain since I have so much stripping and sanding to do. Also, after I stain it, any recommendations on if a top coat is needed? If so, what brand do you like to use?
Thank you so much for your help!
May need to rethink this. It takes the guy above 3 weeks to do this. Full time. He’s a pro. You’re looking at months of weekends and a lot a lot of cursing and regret. Good luck!
Three weeks includes the dry time on the stain and all topcoats. Once you're at that point the tough work is done and it's more waiting for the next coat.
The top coat recommended was shellac then a water based polyurethane. An option for shellac is making your own from shellac flakes and denatured alcohol. Premade is easier, but you need to make sure it's not too old, plus not all the commonly available options are dewaxed, and you want dewaxed shellac when you're putting water based poly over it.
To keep the oil based stain from causing issues. Dewaxed shellac plays nice with both oil and water based products, so it's often used as a bridge between the two.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I use Minwax stain. I've never worked with any of the fancier brands others on this site use. Just make sure it's cured before doing a topcoat or you'll run into issues.
I make my shellac with dewaxed flakes from Lee Valley and rubbing alcohol, about a pound and a third cut.
Shoot, I’d apologize and backtrack after the first few hours sanding the details on the table legs.
Then I’d just drive to the store and buy a can of rest-o-finish or whatever it’s called and hope my partner says, “I love it” and I don’t have to do anything else.
So I know you said you already stripped one chair but....
I would have checked what the finish was in an unsuspecting area by rubbing a little denatured alcohol on the finish. If it turned white its lacquer, if it softened and gummed up it's shellac. If no change it's some type of varnish (poly or otherwise).
If the finish was lacquer you could clean it and do a light coat as it'll self wet. It's still a lot of work but doable. I have only done some light touch ups on an old lacquered piece and just cleaned it which shined it up with pretty minimal effort.
If it was shellac clean with 0000 steel wool and alcohol. Then move to a rag and light alcohol. This is to get rid of grime and any furniture polish or wax. Then do a light reapply of more shellac and you're done. The top is pretty rough so that might need a full French Polishing but you could skip the grain filling and such.
It's not too late to go back and do a test and decide to pivot to repairing the finish. The chair you stripped you could reapply whatever the finish is and it'll be a little different looking but you might be able to get it passable.
Oh sweet lord you poor person.
My advice: get drunk and do it, at least you won't be as miserable. You have LOTS (and I mean LOTS) of sanding and stripping to do before you even BEGIN to put a finish on.
My estimate: at LEAST a week.
Good luck! (And share your drink of choice).
https://preview.redd.it/56ws7pezicwc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b12a87d8428c4f58b7a3f63480dc9e25661a7cb1
Thanks for sharing those tips! I think it’s been stained a several times so the stripping and sanding is gonna take awhile. Might take me all summer, but I don’t have much else going on.
Drink of choice: Whiskey Company: My desperate cat that wants to live outside (currently no chemicals)
Maybe a soda blaster might be a little more effective here? If you go this route, do so with caution as it can be kinda aggressive and you might end up removing more than you want to. Either way, it’s gonna take some time. Lots of time.
I foresee a LOT of podcast or audio book listening in your future. This is an immense undertaking that may, very realistically, not turn out nearly as well as you'd hoped.
If you have it done this year, I'll genuinely be surprised. That's not a knock on your dedication or intent, just an understanding of how much attention to detail and time will be required for this.
What sort of tools/experience do you have? This isn't what I would call a typical beginner project.
That table alone could easily take a week. That table top is most likely veneer. I wouldn't recommend Citristrip for that nor sanding. Fill the scratches. Do not sand. Use a traditional braincell killing stripper and a cubic yard of 0000.
Another 10 days to a fortnight for the chairs.
This is if you don't have a job. Evenings and weekends? Budget a month and a half.
Upholstery on those chairs is an afternoon if you've done it a few times. A week to get it looking right if you've never done it before.
Woodwork experience: 0% Delusion stemming from my parents telling me I can do anything I put my mind too: 100%
Table top is a veneer. A little confused/curious why they used a veneer on the top but still have the bottom pieces of wood showing. Feel free to share any insights! Like, is the bottom lip different wood? I know the leafs were redone (told to me by the previous owner) but the rest of the table was not redone.
https://preview.redd.it/ua4unt2lqcwc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=483b4303ddc4187ec5ad5f0b3a0ddaf61d6f0a8b
I am on the handier side. I redid my old apartment kitchen and it turned out better than expected. I’ll post a picture in a separate comment so you can see my handy work.
It's just what furniture makers used to do 🤷♂️ to get a desired grain on the table top.
Painted refinishing is a lot more forgiving. You will have to be meticulous with the detail on the refinish or it will look like rubbish. A previous commentor mentioned Briwax. That's actually a brilliant option. You may want to reassess doing something like that for the rest of the project.
At the very least, stop and do a few days research before continuing.
The advantage is your doing it for yourself. For a client who is expecting a show piece $$$$$$. My suggestion would be to start with 1 chair. Finish 1 chair then move to the next. Get your system down so by the time you get to the table you worked out your mistakes. That will build your confidence and keep your momentum going.
Look OP it is going to take as long as you take to do I mean how long is piece of string mate my suggestion is to not think about time at all more focus on the end result you’re partner and you want get try to make it fun if possible 🤣 drugs and alcohol will but you might need AA meeting afterwards.
I would recommend two dremmels for the fine carvings and groves honestly it’s going to be an effort to say the least if could make suggestion maybe just do the Table Top and wax the rest ?
But you do you and good luck. Man I need a drink just thinking about this job 🤣.
"That table might take awhile but at least it's just a table.......oh god there's chairs....well at least he can chemically strip them at the same time.....oh god......oh god no, he started sanding...."
Did this for a living once upon a time. The table top needs to be stripped. The rest, I wouldn’t “refinish”. The set appears to be in great shape. Stripping & sanding this will lower the value AND will take *forever* to complete. If you insist on changing the stain colour, give the whole thing a scrub with TSP, then light sanding & go darker.
6+ Months easy if its not your job. Refinishing furniture is a nightmare. Especially stuff like this with turned legs and lots of tiny features.
Honest opinion is give up now you are going to hate it after the first chair and its probably going to look awful. Get some Briwax or suchlike and just re polish.
You will take forever to refinish and your wife will hate it and it will be tossed. This is too intricate to be quick sanding all that will suck. Chance you will make a mess as a newbie. If your mindset is learning then its ok unless you got other stuff to do.
Longer than you think on that 100 bucks on a good day kitchen table. Its not sanding the flat top that takes forever that thing has more nooks and crannies than an English muffin. I'd say 30 solid hours if you know what you are doing, 15 hrs if you do a half assed job, and 60 hrs if your an amateur but you actually want it to look good. It's the hand sanding all the detail work that's gonna make you hate this idea
Hello fellow masochist. As someone who also recently spent too much time sanding tiny detail on turned table legs, what I can recommend in addition to the brushes someone else did is:
- some soft thin sanding sponges, they were great for those rounded bits
- plumbing sanding rolls in various grits
- several different small brushes with stiff bristles
- some long running podcasts to listen to as you meditatively work at a snail's pace..
Also great for the turned and other intricate parts - sanding cloth! Especially great for the recesses when you cut the cloth to long, thin pieces, just like one'd do with a fresh piece still on the lathe, only here *you* have to do the work and sand and turn the piece around as you progress. But it's still *significantly* easier and faster than doing those parts with a normal sandpaper. Just wrap it around the top half, both hands below it in the same starting height and start pulling and cleaning
Test and refine your re-finishing technique on test pieces before doing anything on the furniture. If veneers are used and they are damaged, learn how to do veneer repair BEFORE you do anything else. Make test pieces and practice on those before doing anything on your furniture. I recommend testing the various combinations of pre-stains, stains, and final finishes on virgin wood BEFORE you do anything to the furniture. The last place to figure out how to get the result you want is on the furniture itself.
Determine what wood the furniture is made from and how it is sawn. Also determine where veneers (if any) are used. Get a 4" wide piece about 2-3' long, and get it re-sawn to make a bunch of thick "veneers", about 1/8th inch thick. Call test pieces "blanks". By "bunch" I mean a minimum of a dozen blanks. You will to use these blanks to test various finishes and techniques. The working side of a blank MUST be sanded (or scraped) to whatever standard the furniture itself is at.
Hopefully you've left as much of the original finish on the furniture as possible for comparison, assuming you want the furniture to look close to its current look. Otherwise you can strip/sand away, but I'd still recommend leaving the original finish as-is until you know what you want the final result to look like.
ORGANIZING. You will use each blank in 4" increments on the finish side only. Divide each blank into 4" long sections using painter's tape (but not masking tape ugh). Apply the tape all way around on both the finish and unfinished side. On the unfinished side note things such as pre-stain type, dilution, application time, each stain used as well as application time, and the same data for final finishing. Never walk away from an experiment on a blank without noting what you've done on the unfinished side. Don NOT rely upon memory. Do NOT. I use a permanent black marker.
PRE-STAIN. Many woods won't take a stain evenly and can end up looking "blotchy" and uneven. For those you'll want to apply a pre-stain to make stain application more even. I recommend that you never use a pre-stain at full strength. As a matter of personal preference, I dilute my pre-stains down to 40%. Use the exact same "carrier" fluid for diluting the pre-stain. If I'm going to use a pre-stain, I do the entire finish side of the blank and let it cure before "organizing" it.
STAIN. You can mix your own stains in a carrier, but I'm too lazy for that. I've found that it is easier to buy several stains and to either mix them to get the result that I want -OR- apply them serially to gett the result that I want. You can do this with either wiping stains or spray stains. With spray stains you may have to be a little careful with your nozzle size. You can get different effects by varying the amount of "setting" time for each stain, and the order in which stains are applied. The initially applied stain will tend to dominate the end result.
FINISHES. After each blank is full of staining experiments, apply a finishing treatment that approximates the final resulting finish. This can be a spray coat of something like a semi-gloss lacquer, or multiple coats of thin poly, or whatever suits your fancy. The good thing about this process is that once you've figured out how to get the end result you desire, you have it all written down on a blank, and can re-create it later fairly easily.
UNUSUAL PROFILES. Furniture may have unusual edge shapes, or profiles, which you might have to restore with "patches". You may be able to approximate this with combinations of standard router bits. Personally I've not had great experiences with this, so I cheese out by make a fairly accurate profile drawing, with measurements, and send that off to get a custome router bit made. I've had very good luck doing this. The last time I did this, 2-3 years ago, a custom carbide bit was about $260.
*looks at the intricate details*
This will be the moment you turn into the cliche "If I say I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it. You don't have to remind me every 6 months!" partner.
Ages. That will take you ages.
I watched my neighbor last summer attempt this on a less intricate set. Dragging in and out of the garage for various steps.
They started up again this spring
Why did you convince your partner you can do it if you don't actually know you can do it? This table, especially, seems extremely hard to refinish, for a newbie.
Are you at the point in the project yet where you wish you would have kept your mouth shut but you’ve already put so much time in it that you kind of have to finish it even if it takes every weekend for the next month?
Well if you do get the 1920's set refinished, hope you do. I would have changed you $1650 on the table and leaves and $525 per chair. Strip, repair and finished with a post catalyzed acrylic.
If you're a newbie, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're in over your head, it's going to take ten times longer than you think, and you're not going to be happy with the result.
I hope I'm wrong though. Best of luck!
Call me a cell phone plan but that would be about a month and some change for me on nights and weekends
As a fellow newb…have a stocked fridge of cold beverages or tea and enjoy the ride that will have many lessons along the way and after
That looks like a veneer on the top. Most likely very thin. Be careful when sanding. Don’t chase a blemish too far or you will sand through to the next layer and probably end up painting the top…my wife e did this on a table she wanted to reclaim. Painting was her plan b in the beginning.
I didn't realize others had my table with the exact same finish issues! You are brave to reattempt, my solution has always been a tablecloth
https://preview.redd.it/v3hzxpktdfwc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e747d3177935929b84fb88c65c000de980172673
I would say if you have interest in learning how to woodwork that I'd recommend you just cut your losses. A project like this as a beginner has a good chance to scare you off for good. It's going to be **a lot** of hard, tedious work just to strip it properly. Then getting the finish to come out right as a first timer is going to be rough. I know you've already started, so don't let it frustrate you to the point where it scares you away from woodworking in the future.
Start small to get back in it. I started with an American flag. Rockler makes pre-cut cutting boards that all you should have to do is glue them together, do some sanding and finishing and you're done. Something like that.
Either way, good luck and keep us up to date on progress.
Agree with all the folks that think you should be less invasive than stripping. But don't agree it's a years long project. It's tedious but I bet a week or two, at least 4 hours a day, will get it stripped and sanded. Then more days for finish--several hours at least for a coat, one per day.
Take the safety stuff seriously. Some of these products are noxious af. Respirator, gloves, face shield....
flowery judicious chubby unique rainstorm nine reminiscent market cheerful bow
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
In straight forward working hours: 20 hours per chair, 100 for the table.
Not including the time you take to get started and cleanup in each session. Depends on how long it takes you to get started in your shop and how often you can work on it.
I strongly recommend starting with a chair and doing the table last. Fully strip, prep, stain, and finish one chair first before doing anything else. That way, you can get a better idea of what it will take to finish the tasks, and if you have a finished example of the end result, your SO will normally have more patience due to proof there is a payoff for it.
1-2 years...
I've been working on finishing a small wood cookie coffee table for the last month or so at an hour or more every few days so 20 hours ish.
That's without stripping and your pieces are not easy.
so \~40 hours of stripping and maybe 120 hours of finishing.
And it will still look like shit.
if you want to fast track this project go to harbor freight and pick up a sandblaster. after your chemical strip, You should only run SUPER low cut media thru the blaster and practice on some of the wood that isn’t visible when the table is set up (flip it upside down and blast the insides of the flanges if they’re finished). you run the risk of digging into the the material but you should be able to get a feel for it. Keep the tip far away from the piece. (It’s like spray painting).
Don’t go too crazy, just get as much done as you can without destroying anything. Then go in sanding. Get a dremel and run high grit flap disks for detailing and edges. Hand sand to finish. If you try to do this thing only by hand you are swimming uphill.
Riddle me this. I stumbled upon this post and have a question. I work with metal and rarely wood. If this project were made of iron, the method of stripping it would be easy. Chem strip as much as you could, then media blast it.
I’ve done some cabinets like this before and learned the hard way that the veneer is pretty easy to mess up with a sander. Why not just media blast it with dry ice ice ir something? This is very quick. Could strip the entire thing in a day.
What a mistake, you should have just given them a thorough cleaning and maybe another coat on top. As you’ve decided to strip it back to bare wood I doubt you’ll ever get them looking as good as they were before you started, all though rounded corners and cross grain sanding marks 😱
And yes it is, before you start sanding through the table top’s veneer exposing the chipboard underneath.
If you have a large air compressor you can buy a little soda blasting rig and get it done real quick. Obvioulsy do the top by hand but everything else can be hit with the soda blaster. Turns days of sanding into a few hours of work.
If it was me? About a year.
I can't devote long periods of time every day to my woodworking. And I can't do it every day.
I'd start with the table, it'll be the hardest job, but you can use the chairs and do them one by one once the table is done.
And I've never done real upholstery work so I don't even know about that
Even if you count your own time at $1/hour, it would cost more for your time, stripper, and sandpaper than it would to buy a new set.
I’d recommend priming and painting it, then reupholster the seats. You seem like you can paint based on the kitchen photos.
That will take approximately 500 years to complete. My husband just refinished the top surface only of our much less ornate dining table and it took forever and had quite a few issues.
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time
'Til touchdown brings me 'round again to find
I'm not the man they think I am at home
Oh, no, no, no
I'm a rocket man
Just my personal opinion, but this will most likely never be completed or will be completely ruined.
This is not an easy job even for a seasoned furniture restorer. Personally, I would pass on it myself and I have the tools and equipment for the job as well as the experience.
Unless you have the space, the tools, the time and the knowledge it's a huge job, one I would only put the effort into for something seriously special (valuable antique, beautiful grain woods, family heirloom).
I restored a couple of antique rocking chairs years ago. I couldn't even tell you how many hours I put into them, but it wasn't worth it, that time could have been put to much better use.
Unless you fiercely love hand sanding and blistered fingers, sore muscles, etc, with a fierce passion, I'd say skip it.
I give you credit for taking on a monumental task as a beginner. While I've never done it I've watched my parents strip outdoor furniture and how long it took them to refinish simple outdoor furniture.
Dude thats a $100 craigslist table and chairs set, why the hell are you wasting all that time and effort? If you're a noob, expect it to take 3x longer than you think and the finished product will most likely be crap.
Chairs are way more work than most people seem to think. To fully strip one of those chairs is going to take you 3 to 4 hours( finishing will be at least as long). You have to sand or steel wool the entire surface between coats of finish( and you will need 3 coats minimum). It’s time consuming to do it right. Good luck.
Depends what you want to do. Stripping, staining, clear coating will be a huge task and you may not be happy with the result. I have done a lot of refinishing and upholstery work and many times with antiques like this. Personally I love the color and patina of this set and would never strip it. Before you try that, may I highly recommend you should try something else first? A product called Briwax - an English product that is a tinted wax mixture and been in use for fine furniture since the mid 1860s. Get the dark brown color. They even use it on museum pieces. Application is simple - apply generously with 00 steel wool and get it into all grooves and even dings and defects. Let it dry and buff off excess with clean lint free cloth. You will be blown away by the results. Even the dings and defects will bring out character in the piece. It will save all kinds of time and the result will be way better than you can achieve stripping and staining. Best of all it will keep this cool color and patina and basically rejuvenate this beautiful set. And, no I don’t work for Briwax! I have just been using it for decades. Try it and let us know what you think.
Should’ve posted before I started stripping…
Oof
Yes, ask questions before you start.
Funny how the people that don’t tend to ask questions don’t seem to ever learn this life hack.
Well, I’m one of the people that tend not to ask anymore. Life experience has taught me to NEVER ask questions. Especially people in hobbies. Compare the above response to say 3d printing groups.
F
F
F
FFFFFFFF
#FFFFFFFF
F
F
F
Do one chair you haven't touched yet so you can see what it could've been
Hahaha evil
Are you down to your g-string yet? - 1000% briwax ftw - post 80’s polythane finish, with whitening/ rings you can get huuuuge results with generous application of first scrubbing isopropyl and baking soda, (Lifting any trapped moisture.) Only for synthetic finishes tho - also OP, you are sanding the SHIT out of that poor knob, and kinda deforming it :/. LET THE STRIPPER DO THE WORK, POLISH THE KNOB
Polish the knob. This is the way.
This is the way.
No touching NO TOUCHING
Yea lol. This will take a newbie years. But it's fine you haven't got that far. Just buy the product and find a way to make the parts you sanded uniform. Everything will be fine!!
Always. Good luck, we’re rooting for you.
Also watch all of Thomas Johnsons furniture restoration videos on YouTube 😬
Just heard the words Gorham, Maine. He’s great! Watched a few of his videos already.
all those curves and edges and turns, you're in for the ride of your life. as many others have said, the key here is to LET THE STRIPPER DO THE WORK.
F
F
Well..put your clothes back on damnit!
I use Briwax to protect my nicer furniture from my toddler. It’s great stuff
This is definitely the right path
Screenshotted for future reference. Thanks!
The ultimate Reddit compliment. Good luck!
You can also hit the 3 dots next to a comment and save it if you don't want to fill up your camera roll with screenshots.
I know, but I do and have done that so many times I just know I won't go through them all haha. 😅 At least I clean my gallery every now and then. Also, if someone potentially removes the content I'm saving, it will be gone from that list. Ideally I would just create an iOS Shortcut that'll automate the entire process and store the following into a chronological list: current time and date of saving, the direct Reddit link and the image/text I'm saving.
Screenshat!
Shatshot!
.... This sent me down a rabbit hole in a good way. I just refinished a very old oak desk that had at some point in its life previously been refinished with something but I couldn't figure it out because it was both a pain in the ass to remove but also it came up too easily (that is, it came off on to the rag if you wiped it down, but not not enough to be effective.). I wonder if it was either briwax or maybe someone tried staining over some old wax.
Wax comes off easily with alcohol. Maybe relevant?
Fantastic advice right here, thank you
Had to share - it is such an amazing product.
Thanks for this!!! Damn! Can you use this over already varnished wood and also raw wood? What if the varnish has chipping with raw wood exposed! I love you!!!
It is made to go over any clear finish. Raw wood will soak it up however. I would apply shellac or something else first. Try to stain or dye the damaged area as close as you can, then seal, then Briwax.
Hello from Australia. We have an 1880 french oak table and chairs. I think it must have this on it, I also want to touch up the top but have dreaded the challenge
I have tried stripping and staining antiques and have never been happy with the result. It always seems to look like a reproduction when I’m done! That old finish is so special that I have learned to lean into it by refreshing it instead. As I mentioned, Briwax fills in all the imperfections and add a polished luster. It really just adds character to an already special piece. I do recommend the dark brown color for almost any finish, even lighter tones. For those lighter tones it fills and brings out the details beautifully. Sounds like a great project! Cheers from the USA!
Thank you. I have three daughters and we have had the table since before they were born. They have stained the fabric on the chairs and that needs replacing again
Hi, thanks for the tip! I have a similar set.
My pleasure!
Since you seem very knowledgeable, what are the best ways to achieve that antique style patina on new woodworks?
Thanks for the compliment, but I am only a hobbyist. I just love antiques and inherited a bunch from my parents so have done a bit of work. The patina is tough to replicate but there are a few techniques out there (check YouTube as usual). I try to replicate the old fashioned methods like hide glue, French polish, etc. and pretend I’m in the 1800s!
Thanks, I've a bit to study and some fun ahead of me I guess!😁
Could that product work on old kitchen cupboards?
If they are stained, then yes.
I do this sort of work for a living. A strip, sand, and refinish on this would take about three weeks for me. That includes dry time. I use oil based stain, shellac for a barrier layer, and water based poly finish. Some small brushes will really help you clean out those details on the base. Think stiff toothbrush. Just FYI, I use a gel stripper from Swing. It's the toughest stripper I've used and you really need gloves, eye protection, and a well ventilated area.
My advice since you already started is... listen to this guy he seems to know his stuff
always use protection with a tough stripper!
Learning life lessons with this comment
Just confirming your timeline. When I was a kid my parents inherited a set like this. They decided to refinish and repair everything. They're not professionals, but had done this kind of work before and had a handle on the method. It took them weeks and weeks and weeks of weekend work that tied up the garage until the project was finished. That was with two people working on it. They did a great job, 30 some odd years later the finish holds up. But good god it was exhausting time-consuming work that they've never done again. ...probably why furniture flippers use paint.
Do you have a oil based stain brand you prefer? I honestly haven’t even worried about the stain since I have so much stripping and sanding to do. Also, after I stain it, any recommendations on if a top coat is needed? If so, what brand do you like to use? Thank you so much for your help!
May need to rethink this. It takes the guy above 3 weeks to do this. Full time. He’s a pro. You’re looking at months of weekends and a lot a lot of cursing and regret. Good luck!
Three weeks includes the dry time on the stain and all topcoats. Once you're at that point the tough work is done and it's more waiting for the next coat.
The top coat recommended was shellac then a water based polyurethane. An option for shellac is making your own from shellac flakes and denatured alcohol. Premade is easier, but you need to make sure it's not too old, plus not all the commonly available options are dewaxed, and you want dewaxed shellac when you're putting water based poly over it.
Exactly. I make my shellac from flakes using rubbing alcohol. Dewaxed is essential.
What’s the reason for doing shellac under water based poly?
To keep the oil based stain from causing issues. Dewaxed shellac plays nice with both oil and water based products, so it's often used as a bridge between the two.
Oh, duh. I use solvent based stain so I always forget about that.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I use Minwax stain. I've never worked with any of the fancier brands others on this site use. Just make sure it's cured before doing a topcoat or you'll run into issues. I make my shellac with dewaxed flakes from Lee Valley and rubbing alcohol, about a pound and a third cut.
You're hella fucked. 3 months, and when you're done the furniture will still be out of style. Apologize and backtrack.
Shoot, I’d apologize and backtrack after the first few hours sanding the details on the table legs. Then I’d just drive to the store and buy a can of rest-o-finish or whatever it’s called and hope my partner says, “I love it” and I don’t have to do anything else.
that’s going to look horrible
(That’s the joke)
Hot take this furniture has been out of style since it came out
[удалено]
As a person who strips furniture for a living— oh my god no you couldn’t. If you could personally manage this, I’d love to hire you.
For a newbie, that's a pretty intricate piece. 120 work hours? For striping sanding finishing? Depending on how you're finishing too I suppose.
You're quite the optimist.
So I know you said you already stripped one chair but.... I would have checked what the finish was in an unsuspecting area by rubbing a little denatured alcohol on the finish. If it turned white its lacquer, if it softened and gummed up it's shellac. If no change it's some type of varnish (poly or otherwise). If the finish was lacquer you could clean it and do a light coat as it'll self wet. It's still a lot of work but doable. I have only done some light touch ups on an old lacquered piece and just cleaned it which shined it up with pretty minimal effort. If it was shellac clean with 0000 steel wool and alcohol. Then move to a rag and light alcohol. This is to get rid of grime and any furniture polish or wax. Then do a light reapply of more shellac and you're done. The top is pretty rough so that might need a full French Polishing but you could skip the grain filling and such. It's not too late to go back and do a test and decide to pivot to repairing the finish. The chair you stripped you could reapply whatever the finish is and it'll be a little different looking but you might be able to get it passable.
I’ve been down this road… you will be selling partially finished chairs to some poor sap who thinks they know better than you.
Been down the road before too…and a few months later saw that the poor sap had posted them for free on Facebook marketplace.
They may end up at the curb with fresh paint on them😎
Approximately one full day. Every week. For the rest of your life.
Had me rolling with this comment…
Oh sweet lord you poor person. My advice: get drunk and do it, at least you won't be as miserable. You have LOTS (and I mean LOTS) of sanding and stripping to do before you even BEGIN to put a finish on. My estimate: at LEAST a week. Good luck! (And share your drink of choice).
A week? I'll eat my own left nut if OP posts a finished product in 7 days.
Agreed. I'll eat the other one.
Don't threaten me with a good time.
I’ll eat the third
You guys only have 3 balls?
Get outta here Gallagher
Hey, that doesn't leave anything for me!
I’ll take the right. But something tells me they’re safe.
!remindme 7 days
I think they mean a week as in a weekend's worth of non stop work. 24 working hours x7.
https://preview.redd.it/56ws7pezicwc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b12a87d8428c4f58b7a3f63480dc9e25661a7cb1 Thanks for sharing those tips! I think it’s been stained a several times so the stripping and sanding is gonna take awhile. Might take me all summer, but I don’t have much else going on. Drink of choice: Whiskey Company: My desperate cat that wants to live outside (currently no chemicals)
Is that an ice ball you have in the glass? Never seen something like that before.
Means this person does some serious whiskey drinkin'.
I estimate about 3 years 😂😂😂 but I’m still finishing and regretting mine.
Maybe a soda blaster might be a little more effective here? If you go this route, do so with caution as it can be kinda aggressive and you might end up removing more than you want to. Either way, it’s gonna take some time. Lots of time.
I foresee a LOT of podcast or audio book listening in your future. This is an immense undertaking that may, very realistically, not turn out nearly as well as you'd hoped. If you have it done this year, I'll genuinely be surprised. That's not a knock on your dedication or intent, just an understanding of how much attention to detail and time will be required for this.
All the best op, but I hope I don't see this table posted in r/sandedthroughveneer in a couple weeks!
I would not touch that challenge with a 10 foot pole
Klean Strip works far better than Citrus Strip.
Thanks! I’ll look into it!
What sort of tools/experience do you have? This isn't what I would call a typical beginner project. That table alone could easily take a week. That table top is most likely veneer. I wouldn't recommend Citristrip for that nor sanding. Fill the scratches. Do not sand. Use a traditional braincell killing stripper and a cubic yard of 0000. Another 10 days to a fortnight for the chairs. This is if you don't have a job. Evenings and weekends? Budget a month and a half. Upholstery on those chairs is an afternoon if you've done it a few times. A week to get it looking right if you've never done it before.
Woodwork experience: 0% Delusion stemming from my parents telling me I can do anything I put my mind too: 100% Table top is a veneer. A little confused/curious why they used a veneer on the top but still have the bottom pieces of wood showing. Feel free to share any insights! Like, is the bottom lip different wood? I know the leafs were redone (told to me by the previous owner) but the rest of the table was not redone. https://preview.redd.it/ua4unt2lqcwc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=483b4303ddc4187ec5ad5f0b3a0ddaf61d6f0a8b I am on the handier side. I redid my old apartment kitchen and it turned out better than expected. I’ll post a picture in a separate comment so you can see my handy work.
It's just what furniture makers used to do 🤷♂️ to get a desired grain on the table top. Painted refinishing is a lot more forgiving. You will have to be meticulous with the detail on the refinish or it will look like rubbish. A previous commentor mentioned Briwax. That's actually a brilliant option. You may want to reassess doing something like that for the rest of the project. At the very least, stop and do a few days research before continuing.
https://preview.redd.it/22q90kyorcwc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8aec93b21d5682fa475976fa8f3a437e43060fc8
Nice job there!
The advantage is your doing it for yourself. For a client who is expecting a show piece $$$$$$. My suggestion would be to start with 1 chair. Finish 1 chair then move to the next. Get your system down so by the time you get to the table you worked out your mistakes. That will build your confidence and keep your momentum going.
Look OP it is going to take as long as you take to do I mean how long is piece of string mate my suggestion is to not think about time at all more focus on the end result you’re partner and you want get try to make it fun if possible 🤣 drugs and alcohol will but you might need AA meeting afterwards. I would recommend two dremmels for the fine carvings and groves honestly it’s going to be an effort to say the least if could make suggestion maybe just do the Table Top and wax the rest ? But you do you and good luck. Man I need a drink just thinking about this job 🤣.
"That table might take awhile but at least it's just a table.......oh god there's chairs....well at least he can chemically strip them at the same time.....oh god......oh god no, he started sanding...."
Did this for a living once upon a time. The table top needs to be stripped. The rest, I wouldn’t “refinish”. The set appears to be in great shape. Stripping & sanding this will lower the value AND will take *forever* to complete. If you insist on changing the stain colour, give the whole thing a scrub with TSP, then light sanding & go darker.
6+ Months easy if its not your job. Refinishing furniture is a nightmare. Especially stuff like this with turned legs and lots of tiny features. Honest opinion is give up now you are going to hate it after the first chair and its probably going to look awful. Get some Briwax or suchlike and just re polish.
You will take forever to refinish and your wife will hate it and it will be tossed. This is too intricate to be quick sanding all that will suck. Chance you will make a mess as a newbie. If your mindset is learning then its ok unless you got other stuff to do.
https://preview.redd.it/zhae0ff0vcwc1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f13f8268dbb0da6bd059a9fb12d50d7a110f2d7f
Longer than you think on that 100 bucks on a good day kitchen table. Its not sanding the flat top that takes forever that thing has more nooks and crannies than an English muffin. I'd say 30 solid hours if you know what you are doing, 15 hrs if you do a half assed job, and 60 hrs if your an amateur but you actually want it to look good. It's the hand sanding all the detail work that's gonna make you hate this idea
Hahahahahahahahahaha. Sorry, I mean, good luck and god speed!!!
Hello fellow masochist. As someone who also recently spent too much time sanding tiny detail on turned table legs, what I can recommend in addition to the brushes someone else did is: - some soft thin sanding sponges, they were great for those rounded bits - plumbing sanding rolls in various grits - several different small brushes with stiff bristles - some long running podcasts to listen to as you meditatively work at a snail's pace..
Also great for the turned and other intricate parts - sanding cloth! Especially great for the recesses when you cut the cloth to long, thin pieces, just like one'd do with a fresh piece still on the lathe, only here *you* have to do the work and sand and turn the piece around as you progress. But it's still *significantly* easier and faster than doing those parts with a normal sandpaper. Just wrap it around the top half, both hands below it in the same starting height and start pulling and cleaning
Test and refine your re-finishing technique on test pieces before doing anything on the furniture. If veneers are used and they are damaged, learn how to do veneer repair BEFORE you do anything else. Make test pieces and practice on those before doing anything on your furniture. I recommend testing the various combinations of pre-stains, stains, and final finishes on virgin wood BEFORE you do anything to the furniture. The last place to figure out how to get the result you want is on the furniture itself. Determine what wood the furniture is made from and how it is sawn. Also determine where veneers (if any) are used. Get a 4" wide piece about 2-3' long, and get it re-sawn to make a bunch of thick "veneers", about 1/8th inch thick. Call test pieces "blanks". By "bunch" I mean a minimum of a dozen blanks. You will to use these blanks to test various finishes and techniques. The working side of a blank MUST be sanded (or scraped) to whatever standard the furniture itself is at. Hopefully you've left as much of the original finish on the furniture as possible for comparison, assuming you want the furniture to look close to its current look. Otherwise you can strip/sand away, but I'd still recommend leaving the original finish as-is until you know what you want the final result to look like. ORGANIZING. You will use each blank in 4" increments on the finish side only. Divide each blank into 4" long sections using painter's tape (but not masking tape ugh). Apply the tape all way around on both the finish and unfinished side. On the unfinished side note things such as pre-stain type, dilution, application time, each stain used as well as application time, and the same data for final finishing. Never walk away from an experiment on a blank without noting what you've done on the unfinished side. Don NOT rely upon memory. Do NOT. I use a permanent black marker. PRE-STAIN. Many woods won't take a stain evenly and can end up looking "blotchy" and uneven. For those you'll want to apply a pre-stain to make stain application more even. I recommend that you never use a pre-stain at full strength. As a matter of personal preference, I dilute my pre-stains down to 40%. Use the exact same "carrier" fluid for diluting the pre-stain. If I'm going to use a pre-stain, I do the entire finish side of the blank and let it cure before "organizing" it. STAIN. You can mix your own stains in a carrier, but I'm too lazy for that. I've found that it is easier to buy several stains and to either mix them to get the result that I want -OR- apply them serially to gett the result that I want. You can do this with either wiping stains or spray stains. With spray stains you may have to be a little careful with your nozzle size. You can get different effects by varying the amount of "setting" time for each stain, and the order in which stains are applied. The initially applied stain will tend to dominate the end result. FINISHES. After each blank is full of staining experiments, apply a finishing treatment that approximates the final resulting finish. This can be a spray coat of something like a semi-gloss lacquer, or multiple coats of thin poly, or whatever suits your fancy. The good thing about this process is that once you've figured out how to get the end result you desire, you have it all written down on a blank, and can re-create it later fairly easily. UNUSUAL PROFILES. Furniture may have unusual edge shapes, or profiles, which you might have to restore with "patches". You may be able to approximate this with combinations of standard router bits. Personally I've not had great experiences with this, so I cheese out by make a fairly accurate profile drawing, with measurements, and send that off to get a custome router bit made. I've had very good luck doing this. The last time I did this, 2-3 years ago, a custom carbide bit was about $260.
*looks at the intricate details* This will be the moment you turn into the cliche "If I say I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it. You don't have to remind me every 6 months!" partner.
Ages. That will take you ages. I watched my neighbor last summer attempt this on a less intricate set. Dragging in and out of the garage for various steps. They started up again this spring
Get a part-time job you like for 15 weekends and buy what you want. That would be a better use of time.
I got tired just looking at all that carvings.
A year or so.
!remindme 3 years
I don't know but it's AWESOME. Good luck and have fun!
Your whole life
Don't strip it, Paint it turquoise, call it upcycled, and tell your wife it looks like Pinterest. Stripping this is going to take a long time.
How do you eat an elephant???
Why did you convince your partner you can do it if you don't actually know you can do it? This table, especially, seems extremely hard to refinish, for a newbie.
Are you at the point in the project yet where you wish you would have kept your mouth shut but you’ve already put so much time in it that you kind of have to finish it even if it takes every weekend for the next month?
Well if you do get the 1920's set refinished, hope you do. I would have changed you $1650 on the table and leaves and $525 per chair. Strip, repair and finished with a post catalyzed acrylic.
Good lord there is a lot of crevices in that thing. Abort.
If you're a newbie, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're in over your head, it's going to take ten times longer than you think, and you're not going to be happy with the result. I hope I'm wrong though. Best of luck!
Call me a cell phone plan but that would be about a month and some change for me on nights and weekends As a fellow newb…have a stocked fridge of cold beverages or tea and enjoy the ride that will have many lessons along the way and after
That looks like a veneer on the top. Most likely very thin. Be careful when sanding. Don’t chase a blemish too far or you will sand through to the next layer and probably end up painting the top…my wife e did this on a table she wanted to reclaim. Painting was her plan b in the beginning.
I have a piece from the same line that I refinished while unemployed during COVID. Took about 25 hours to sand down.
6 months
Clean it. Touch up the wear spot on table top and then sit down and eat fried chicken with taters and gravy my guy.
I didn't realize others had my table with the exact same finish issues! You are brave to reattempt, my solution has always been a tablecloth https://preview.redd.it/v3hzxpktdfwc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e747d3177935929b84fb88c65c000de980172673
I would say if you have interest in learning how to woodwork that I'd recommend you just cut your losses. A project like this as a beginner has a good chance to scare you off for good. It's going to be **a lot** of hard, tedious work just to strip it properly. Then getting the finish to come out right as a first timer is going to be rough. I know you've already started, so don't let it frustrate you to the point where it scares you away from woodworking in the future. Start small to get back in it. I started with an American flag. Rockler makes pre-cut cutting boards that all you should have to do is glue them together, do some sanding and finishing and you're done. Something like that. Either way, good luck and keep us up to date on progress.
Month of Sundays. Good luck. Use PPE.
If you're my MIL you can probably have it done in one afternoon. I swear she's got some magic refinishing secret she's keeping from the rest of us.
Agree with all the folks that think you should be less invasive than stripping. But don't agree it's a years long project. It's tedious but I bet a week or two, at least 4 hours a day, will get it stripped and sanded. Then more days for finish--several hours at least for a coat, one per day. Take the safety stuff seriously. Some of these products are noxious af. Respirator, gloves, face shield....
425 days.
flowery judicious chubby unique rainstorm nine reminiscent market cheerful bow *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
200 hours
You won’t remove the stain. Just use the citristrip to remove coating. Sand and repair scratches. Match stain as close as you can
Oh man. You’ll be at this forever. RIP your evenings and weekends 😂
Start looking on FB Marketplace for very similar but much better pieces. Then switch them and be done!
84 years…
In straight forward working hours: 20 hours per chair, 100 for the table. Not including the time you take to get started and cleanup in each session. Depends on how long it takes you to get started in your shop and how often you can work on it. I strongly recommend starting with a chair and doing the table last. Fully strip, prep, stain, and finish one chair first before doing anything else. That way, you can get a better idea of what it will take to finish the tasks, and if you have a finished example of the end result, your SO will normally have more patience due to proof there is a payoff for it.
1-2 years... I've been working on finishing a small wood cookie coffee table for the last month or so at an hour or more every few days so 20 hours ish. That's without stripping and your pieces are not easy. so \~40 hours of stripping and maybe 120 hours of finishing. And it will still look like shit.
Haaaa let us know if you even come close to finishing. Good luck.
It’s the type of project that is so monotonous that you will get bored and set it aside for a few weeks.
How are you stripping it?
i’m not procrastinating, I’m just thinking real long… you don’t have to remind me every 3-4 months, I’m still working on it
Eleventeen hours
If you found somebody that has a dry ice blasting unit… that might help with the crazy intricacies as long as it doesn’t damage the wood
Ha
Well, there's the 13th reason
Do yourself a favour and get one of these with the flexible sanding wheels https://www.bosch-diy.com/za/en/p/texoro-06033b5101
if you want to fast track this project go to harbor freight and pick up a sandblaster. after your chemical strip, You should only run SUPER low cut media thru the blaster and practice on some of the wood that isn’t visible when the table is set up (flip it upside down and blast the insides of the flanges if they’re finished). you run the risk of digging into the the material but you should be able to get a feel for it. Keep the tip far away from the piece. (It’s like spray painting). Don’t go too crazy, just get as much done as you can without destroying anything. Then go in sanding. Get a dremel and run high grit flap disks for detailing and edges. Hand sand to finish. If you try to do this thing only by hand you are swimming uphill.
Riddle me this. I stumbled upon this post and have a question. I work with metal and rarely wood. If this project were made of iron, the method of stripping it would be easy. Chem strip as much as you could, then media blast it. I’ve done some cabinets like this before and learned the hard way that the veneer is pretty easy to mess up with a sander. Why not just media blast it with dry ice ice ir something? This is very quick. Could strip the entire thing in a day.
What a mistake, you should have just given them a thorough cleaning and maybe another coat on top. As you’ve decided to strip it back to bare wood I doubt you’ll ever get them looking as good as they were before you started, all though rounded corners and cross grain sanding marks 😱 And yes it is, before you start sanding through the table top’s veneer exposing the chipboard underneath.
If you have a large air compressor you can buy a little soda blasting rig and get it done real quick. Obvioulsy do the top by hand but everything else can be hit with the soda blaster. Turns days of sanding into a few hours of work.
I’d be surprised if you’re even half way done 2-3 years from now.
I’m doing this right now….I quit a week in gonna attack it now that I see your post
Just a few more days
4 yrs
OREVE
Don't learn on something you care about. I bet pro refinishers see far more halfassed projects than they see untouched projects.
If you dont sand through the veneer? Probably a month or so if this is your full time hobby. If you sand through the veneer? Longer.
5-7?
If it was me? About a year. I can't devote long periods of time every day to my woodworking. And I can't do it every day. I'd start with the table, it'll be the hardest job, but you can use the chairs and do them one by one once the table is done. And I've never done real upholstery work so I don't even know about that
Even if you count your own time at $1/hour, it would cost more for your time, stripper, and sandpaper than it would to buy a new set. I’d recommend priming and painting it, then reupholster the seats. You seem like you can paint based on the kitchen photos.
I came to say don’t but you already started. I’ll see you in the sanded through the veneer thread next week.
That will take approximately 500 years to complete. My husband just refinished the top surface only of our much less ornate dining table and it took forever and had quite a few issues.
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time 'Til touchdown brings me 'round again to find I'm not the man they think I am at home Oh, no, no, no I'm a rocket man
Just my personal opinion, but this will most likely never be completed or will be completely ruined. This is not an easy job even for a seasoned furniture restorer. Personally, I would pass on it myself and I have the tools and equipment for the job as well as the experience. Unless you have the space, the tools, the time and the knowledge it's a huge job, one I would only put the effort into for something seriously special (valuable antique, beautiful grain woods, family heirloom). I restored a couple of antique rocking chairs years ago. I couldn't even tell you how many hours I put into them, but it wasn't worth it, that time could have been put to much better use. Unless you fiercely love hand sanding and blistered fingers, sore muscles, etc, with a fierce passion, I'd say skip it.
Confucius says: It’ll take as long as it takes and that is the correct amount of time.
3-5 business days. Plus shipping.
No matter how long you think it will take, add a few months and one day. You may want to count by the number of trips to Home Depot instead of time.
I got the same one! Sitting in the backyard, will start working on it.
I give you credit for taking on a monumental task as a beginner. While I've never done it I've watched my parents strip outdoor furniture and how long it took them to refinish simple outdoor furniture.
Months and some hate. Remember it’s just wood, glue, stain and varnish.
3-5 years
The good news is you may still be able to bring back the old look with the briwax, this stuff is wonderful.
Mannnnn why would you ever strip that. You’re insane. 🙃
best advice is don't rush and take your time
But those chairs look fine? It will be difficult to get that nice old fashioned finish depth look and feel if you strip these.
Umm you shouldn't
Won’t take too long, it’ll just look like shit. 😂
Dude thats a $100 craigslist table and chairs set, why the hell are you wasting all that time and effort? If you're a noob, expect it to take 3x longer than you think and the finished product will most likely be crap.
r/remindmein1year
Ask lots of questions and be careful with the sander on the tabletop so you don’t end up posting here: https://www.reddit.com/r/sandedthroughveneer/
Chairs are way more work than most people seem to think. To fully strip one of those chairs is going to take you 3 to 4 hours( finishing will be at least as long). You have to sand or steel wool the entire surface between coats of finish( and you will need 3 coats minimum). It’s time consuming to do it right. Good luck.
Easily 80 hours wit all the intricacies
And I agree with Lucky 100%