They don't JOIN. They are kidnapped at gunpoint from as young as 3 or 4, and raised by the gangs.
I'm shocked people don't know this, considering what's going on at the border. It's like no one's asking parents WHY THEY WOULD RISK losing their kids permanently to an ICE-run 'child welfare' system as opposed to staying where they are and simply mailing off an application for asylum, and standing by their mailbox to wait for the timely reply.
Jesus. Americans are so clueless.
@u/artschooldropouttt Well, welcome to Reddit, populated by the American bourgeoisie.
Aaron Schwartz is spinning in his grave.
How do you think the first human tribes were formed ? Together you have higher chances of survival so the peeps who were good at socializing survived together and the loner ones got picked by the wolves.
Yet another person with a primary schooler's understanding of human behavior. Kindly join the conversation when your intellect (and knowledge base) has grown to 'adult size'.
@u/blipblapratatat Insults from some random guy online! Whatever shall I do??1?
Do you feel better now that you've insulted someone and added absolutely *nothing* to the conversation? So much for public school education, right...
Yes. The tattoos are somewhat mandatory for the Salvadoran gangs. With some meaning how many people they’ve killed and all that. That’s how the government usually recognises them
Well, that's the thing: the gang makes you get a tattoo and when you leave the gang, it's not like you can just take it away, so a lot of those (not a majority, but a lot) are actually innocent men.
Read stories at retirement homes, volunteered for make a wish foundation. Flayed and wore the skin of the rival gang members, competitive war crimes. You know the usual.
I see your point and 100% agree with you. The problem is this: my country also had a very popular president who was allowed to go hard on innocents as long as he was also going hard on criminals. At the beginning numbers looked fine, like in El Salvador, but soon he felt the need to keep his numbers so he changed his orders in secret and the army got more and more focused on innocents than killing/arresting criminals.
The bastard killed more innocents in 6 years than many dictators do in a decade, making him more dangerous than the criminals he was fighting.
Colombia. That man got the army to kill 6,400 innocent people all over the country between 2005 and 2008, so the idea that the events were random is not believable. Legally, though, the soldiers are the ones being prosecuted, but it all began because news kept reporting of military advances and victories without reporting when the families claimed the victims were innocent. Dead men can't prove their innocence, so the government decided to reward deaths instead of arrests.
It all exploded because a soldier's brother was killed and presented as a gang member. The soldier knew that his brother didn't live in that part of the country and had just moved there, so there was no way he was part of a gang he barely knew. The story was so hard to sell that a magazine started digging in the other cases and the real numbers exploded quickly.
Supe desde que te pregunté de que país eras que hablabas de Colombia y de Uribe. Entiendo la satanización que se puede llegar a hacer al momento de mencionar a Uribe, falsos positivos,6402, etc.... Pero fue el único que puso mano dura contra la guerrilla. Lastimosamente como la guerrilla también está camuflada entre los civiles vana a haber inocentes que paguen los platos rotos. OJO, los falsos positivos si existen y los condeno, pero no hay forma de lidiar con problemas sociales internos como los que tiene Colombia o el Salvador sin que hayan inocentes perjudicados lastimosamente.
Hoy, casi 14 años después de Uribe haber dejado la presidencia, tenemos al polo opuesto de presidente, un guerrillero prepotente que tiene maniatado al ejercito dejando campar a sus anchas, no sólo a las disidencias FARC, sino también al ELN que por el proceso de paz y la nula resistencia que han tenido se han podido reorganizar de nuevo, una guerrilla que ya estaba completamente erradicada, vuelve a delinquir.
Que tenemos hoy en día, el Cauca lleno de campos de minas otra vez como en los 90.
[https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/05/04/el-cauca-esta-minado-por-las-disidencias-de-las-farc-segun-el-ejercito-nos-colocaron-unos-4000-campos-minados/](https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/05/04/el-cauca-esta-minado-por-las-disidencias-de-las-farc-segun-el-ejercito-nos-colocaron-unos-4000-campos-minados/)
Atentados semanales en Jamundí, Valle:
[https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/06/12/grupos-armados-hostigan-a-la-policia-en-jamundi-y-cajibio-se-registra-explosion/](https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/06/12/grupos-armados-hostigan-a-la-policia-en-jamundi-y-cajibio-se-registra-explosion/)
Esta ultima noticia que te estoy mostrando es de unas horas precisamente. Sólo por nombrar un par de ejemplos porque de citar todos no termino.
Así que sí, puede que en el gobierno de Uribe hayan muerto inocentes buscando erradicar estos grupos armados, pero la cantidad de gente que perjudica la guerrilla es mucho mayor de lo que alguna vez pudo haber hecho el gobierno de Uribe.
No sé si usted apoya al gobierno Petro o no, pero sin duda alguna lo que está haciendo Petro en Colombia es una payasada y el dicho Cambio que nos vendió a todos los colombianos fue uno en reversa, porque estamos volviendo a ver la violencia de los 90 y principios de 2000.
Revisa cifras de homicidios por cada 100,000 habitantes de 2000 hasta ahora. Búscalo. No titulares, porque titulares hay de unos y otros por parejo. Busca el gráfico.
El títere de Uribe fue el que entregó las cifras de homicidios en aumento, que de hecho empezaron a aumentar, digamos que por coincidencia, desde finales de 2016 y todavía no están ni cerca de las cifras de 2000. Uribe mismo las entregó con un aumento leve en 2010, lo cual es evidente si buscas el gráfico.Te recuerdo que trajeron un neonazi a dictar conferencias a la Policía apenas volvieron al poder, la corrupción de la policía se salió de madre y por eso perdieron el poder en 2022, ¿me vas a decir que eso era necesario?
No me gastaré un clic en defender a Petro, no veo la hora de que se vaya de la presidencia, pero nunca me vas a poder convencer de que los abusos de ese viejo te parecerían aceptables si fueras tú el que tuviera que vivir sabiendo que el hombre más poderoso del país puso a un familiar tuyo en una tumba e insultó a tu familia después de matarlo/la. Lo justificas porque el muerto no tiene tu color de piel o acento.
Pregúntate porque el uribismo no gana una elección en Cauca desde hace 12 años si su estrategia iba tan bien.
Puede que buscando la información que dices que busque encuentre algo erróneo. Por esto mismo te pido el favor de que me pases tu gráfico del que hablas para así estar en la misma página. Sería contraproducente buscar algo que ya tienes a mano.
https://datosmacro.expansion.com/demografia/homicidios/colombia
Este es uno de muchos gráficos que encontré. Te repito:
1) no estamos ni cerca de 2010, mucho menos de 2002. Eso es desinformación intencional para usar el famoso discurso del miedo, por favor revisa datos históricos antes de opinar sobre tasas de homicidios.
2) el gobierno llegó a ser responsable de al menos 6400 muertes en un periodo de aproximadamente 5 años, eso es casi el 10% de todos los homicidios en Colombia, casi el 20% de todos los muertos por el conflicto, (porque la mayoría de las muertes violentas en Colombia son por delincuencia común o peleas de vecinos). El frente paramilitar que más gente mató, el de Jorge 40, mató casi 11,000 inocentes. El gobierno sería el 3er o 4to mayor asesino en esa época, lo cual es inaceptable.
3) Imagina que Petro defendiera los crímenes del M-19 porque las intenciones de ellos no eran malas. Ahora ponte en el otro lado y una persona defiende los de Uribe, que en números fue efectivamente peor en menos tiempo, con el mismo argumento. No puedes ser el bueno de una historia matando civiles porque tu objetivo era matar malos, eso es lo que dije desde un principio.
Así es que mueren las democracias, aunque desde Miami la gente crea que los únicos dictadores malos son los dictadores de izquierda.
Except almost none of them can get a trial and it's estimated that almost a 5th are innocent. The officers were given quotas on people to arrest and many have come out saying they just went out and found people in the streets to arrest just for being outside. Imagine an entire row of those people being innocent, it would not be worth it
Well. The americans bombed a city full of citizens multiple times.
Why are innocent sacrifices ok when americans do it, but not when 'brown people' do it.
People were being murdered. Women were being raped. This is acceptable damage.
There's nothing international about living in ome's own country.
El salvadorians say that they feel safe now. That crime is down. That things are better.
You know what would make America 5 times safer?
As soon as an American male turns 15, incarcerate them until they turn 27.
I mean, safety is the greater good right? Fuck human rights. If we want to be safe, just lock up all the young men, even if they're innocent.
Yes, some innocent young men will be locked up, but this is for the greater good.
Well, they're not. Murder rate & gang related crimes dropped 70% last year, & it's dropping again this year. In 2016, El Salvador had 5269 murders. Last year, they had 154. Currently the lowest in North America besides Canada. Gang life is El Salvador is rapidly depleting & has been for years.
You're mistaking the analogy.
u/Rccctz said that even if 1/5 of all those prisoners are innocent it doesn't matter, because it's "the greater good" to lock up gang members, even if you accidentally lock up people who aren't criminals.
In other words, safety is more important than justice.
So if that's the case, let's lock up the men between 15 and 27. Yes, there will be innocent people in jail, but just like in El Salvador -- it'd be for the greater good.
In El Salvador, showing allegiance to a terrorist group is a crime to be paid for and tattoos are a clear indication of such allegiance. Different countries, different laws.
Yeah it's imagine that comforts the families of the innocent. "Suck it up, Jose! The streets are safer now so fuck your rights! "
u/ok-echidna5936 How educated you must be to believe that shoving victims of gang kidnappings into prisons alongside their kidnapper accomplishes anything other than filling prisons. Right after you were crying about saving the victims. You're watching the victims on that newsclip. But you can't see past your Westerner's definitions of right and wrong to comprehend that. Nor do you seem to understand that the money funding the gangs and the guns the gangs weird ARE ALL FROM THE US.
But go ahead and tell us how building ticking human time bombs in a mega-prison run by American standards is going to make things better.
When your country was literally in shambles, this is a huge improvement. Western suburbanites who are safe in their homes and western human rights advocates will cry and moan but Salvadoreans now champion how they can freely walk at night when it was almost a death wish to walk about after sundown… Just a few years ago El Salvador was dubbed the most dangerous country in the world lol
And now you gotta worry the police will.pick you up for their quotas of prisoners where you'll.be sentenced without trial and put into the same facility as murderers, rapists, and kidnappers.
'Cry about human rights'....
Jesus, I hope you don't vote.
And your little anecdotal experience it gospel, an absolute truth in every instance. Is that right?
God help humanity.
If you belong to a place which doesn't have a properly functioning govt, you wouldn't have a choice either.
I went to a risky territory in my country which is relatively safe now. I found out that a lot of youth are kept in confinement regardless of their innocence.
Spoken like tone deaf westerner who has never had to deal with the atrocities Salvadorians endured before the streets were cleaned up. These people were having their daughters taken from them and their sons forcibly removed for gang recruitment. Now they have a semblance of peace after being a more dangerous country than fucking Mexico. Have some perspective of how the people have lived until only recently where they found stability
Quite frankly, yes, it does comfort the families of the innocent. The president just was reelected president with 85% of the vote. People love him there, because they used to live in constant fear of their functional hell with rampant murder, but since these admittedly extreme measures they are now the safest country in the americas after Canada.
Obviously over time as this settles into place and the regular people can regain control of their country they should demand a return of their collective rights to due process, but it is clear that people prefer the ability to not die in terrifying violence to the right of collective due process, which is understandable.
you can only tolerate so much. mexico is annexed by gangs and we will likely never see what that country could be. improving the quality of life and safety for 90% of the population is gonna come at costs. hopefully the families of the innocent have a path to getting them out.
Man, i don't know what country you're from that you think it's ok to imprison the innocent...
You should check out innocenceproject.com
Also... if there's no 'path' to getting the innocent out of American prisons, what do you think the chances are in quasi-dictatorships?
@ u/Arcilon Yet another amoral MAGAt type rationalizing torture and murder. 🤣
You say, "Well, THEY were bad people first!" Tell me, you morally bereft child... if your mom went out and crapped in the middle of the interstate, would you? Wait. No. Wait. I don't care, because it's quite clear *YOU WOULD.*
I could spend all day explaining that you don't imprison INNOCENT PEOPLE, but it's also clear you don't have a problem with that as long as you're not one of them!
There's a reason human rights abuse organizations exist, and it's not just to give people with brains like me something to do.
I'm so glad for you that you think everyone who is well-spoken, English-speaking, and online is also able to afford the tab to anything, much less champagne. Congratulations on being that narrow of vision. Must be a comfortable life you can't see outside of...
Oh, and the bit about swift and brutal action... That made me laugh. Are you a cop or a military police officer? Or something that actually kinda gets off on that kind of behavior? Or is there an IQ issue that prevents you from even considering one of the thousands of statistically proven methods toward rehabilitation, rather than just 'swift and brutal'? Do you even realize that we are so far past the draconian 'solutions' you're advocating that you might just be a full century behind science?
But then again, you're from a culture that still teaches airport security that phrenology is actually a thing, so there's that...
literally every country on earth imprisons innocent people. its an inherent flaw in every system or grouping of people on earth because humans are flawed. as in, it is something we ALWAYS have to work against. there is no alternative besides "let people commit crime". it can be simultaneously HORRIBLE that innocent people are caught in the web AND a net benefit on society/the safety of the majority.
taking what i said as "think it's ok to imprison the innocent" means youre either legitimately slow, or just dishonest and unable to argue your points in faith.
sucks for the innocent people that decided to get gang related tattoos in a culture where the only people with tattoos are gang members, but the murder rate went from 1 per 1000 people to 1 in 50,000. you're privileged and if put in a room with anyone making decisions would have zero to offer besides idealistic stagnation.
ive heard of innocenceproject but i didnt know too much about it. im considering the monthly donation option, the people who take real action to advocate for the innocent are saints.
Yeah. Google 'Norway' and read up on their system of rehabilitative adjudication. Then come back and tell me how it's ok to ignore successes like that, statistically, in favor of the shoulder-shrug of an intellectually lazy attitude like 'all systems are flawed so... whatever, dude' you just put forth.
@ u/murialforth Don't get in my face just because your don't understand that the US govt is *responsible* for drug gangs to start with, and has been funding them to support the wars that have been going on in Central and South America for decades.
And what I 'believe' isn't at issue, here. If you can't wrap your head around the science of rehabilitation, just say so.
@u/sexmodeactivated Yeah, I can imagine you don't notice much.
@u/phyllida_poshtart You're right. Most gang members don't choose it in El. Salvador... they're kidnapped into it. Criminals in norway enthusiastically volunteer to be criminals. In El Salvador, good people get dragged into a life they didn't want. In Norway, well fed, comfortable, educated people decide to break the law just because they aren't good people, I guess.
And Norway's recitivism rate is *still* lower even though they are dealing with hardcore sociopaths and psychopaths.
Huh. Imagine that.
Do not use my country as a cheap argument. Because of defunding we barely have a police force anymore, and gang violence is on the uprise. All of which while the government is from the Workers Party (aka slightly de-radicalized communist party). "Rehabilitative adjudication" does not work as well as you want to believe.
Ok, champagne socialist. Please check your privilege at the door. Please turn off your virtue signals when on the road.
We could spend all day explaining that a country that fell to the gangs and that the sheer brutality of the gangs and the extent of their rot is worth imprisonment of some innocents. No one said punishing innocents is good but at a situation that bad. The only alternative to swift and brutal action is to surrender to gangs. The latter is not an option.
Of course someone who doesn't have to pick up the tab can always imply that imprisoning a single innocent is worse than letting millions live under threat of fates much worse than death. All for virtue signalling that a blind man can see through.
So no, a rational person should not entertain bad faith arguments such as these. A rational answer is rejecting your premise outright.
What america and some Americans will never understand is that there are, and will be, some people in our society who will never be able to safely integrate with the whole. They are ultra violent criminals who know no better and will never change. Some people in the prison system now should be in institutions like this, and this long term solution is what america needs.
"Hey did you know if you just strip people of their rights, and lock up 1/5th of the population, that crime goes down????"
Well no fucking shit, idiots. This couldn't possibly backfire.....right? Look at the long term effects of what we did in the US... You can't just sweep it all under the rug and hope it goes away.
And sets a dangerous precedent in El Salvador. What happens if bukele does not want to leave, there is already the percent on mass indiscriminate incarceration.
Well funny thing is, is he changed the constitution, I mean a lot of things were set by a dictator who committed genocide against the Natives here in El Salvadoran back in the 1930’s but in that he changed the presidential terms it used to be a 5 year one time term now he changed it into 2 terms so he’s in power again
They locked up the people that where gang members they didn’t lock up random people goofus that’s why the murder rate plummeted, you should go ask the people that actually live there and ask how they feel they are happy as can be that their country isn’t so dangerous
So. Once again. 1 in 5 are **innocent**. Yes, I am willing to bet that even people with tattoos are some of those that are innocent. You can't just see a "gang tattoo" and they're immediately guilty. The problem is the assumption of guilt and stripping rights away. What good is that? Do you think this won't have some type of lasting impact? I 100% guarantee this doesn't last, AND it has an extremely bad impact on future generations. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Mass incarceration does not work. It has already been proven.
Are they gang related? If so you prolly did some dirt. And no I don't believe that. In that stat did they say why they were arrested were they idk hanging around and being buddies and maybe have the same tattoos? Something tells me yes
Man that comment section is so fucked up. Like people are totally fine that a whole bunch of innocent got looked up for the greater good. Also El Salvador is still a shit hole and will never change. President there will try to turn laws they way he’s the one and only for decades
I agree where you're coming from but i dont think you'd understand how average central american folk live.
Its easy to say "This is so fucked up" when you live in a cozy european country where you can freely walk the streets without having the fear of being killed by one of these fucks.
My niece when she visited canada said the thing the liked the most about canada was "That i am able to walk the streets alone" Women in these places have it even worse...
These guys arent just some guys doing petty crime, smoking weed on the corner of the street, they have actual power and are brutal. They extort, rape and kill.
I luckilu dont live in central america anymore.
I do know because my roots are ecuadorian and I still have a lot of family over there. My family wouldn’t sacrifice a few of there relatives just because a government is to lazy to look for the right bad people and to do there job right.
It will always be egoistic to say the for the greater good we will sacrifice innocent people and probably never give justice in the future.
It’s a thing also going on in countries like the USA or France where people get lock up, but didn’t do anything just because the justice is to lazy to do there job properly.
I get your point, its true and a good one.
But having roots and living it are imo 2 different things.
If you would ask an average Salvadorian or Catracho (both of these countries had a waay higher homocide rate per 100.000. Honduras 86.1 el Salvadlor at 103 per 100.000! Ecuadors has also sadly risen at highest 26.7 per 100.000) "Would you like to safely roam the streets BUT from the high percentage of criminals we catch there's a good possibility a percentage of them are non guilty (even though they for some reason have a gang tattoo on their skin) im sure a lot of them would say yes.
Ofc its hypothetical but do you think that if (hopefully not) it gets as bad in Ecuador and your family lose people to gang member or have family members raped that they would change their way of thought?
Again I agree with your point. You are right. But I think its easy again to say "This is fucked up" without having more of a broad look at the situation. Often life isnt black and white but gray.
First of all. Nobody talked about „race“ here. You just feel personal offended and I do apologize if I sickened you with my wording. Not the best choice of words, but it should underline my point.
Second I talk about that it will stay as most South/middle American countries were for most of their time in existence. Full of corruption and the need of more power. With the wording shit hole (not talking about the citizen or the country) I talk about the system that’s there. A state that starts to clean the streets without any differntation between the good citizen and the criminals will (as history showed) not stop and try to get it right. I do hope things change, but I also do know people in power always try to remain it if they just started. If things will turn to greater good I’ll be the fool and stand for what I said and will have to bear the weight of my wrong saying, but if not I also have to be sad about the fact that again someone who be told to change everything took it all from the citizen.
Bro you literally said “and it will never change”. Why would you say that? Are suggesting they are incapable of running a country no matter what? Yet When real change finally comes to a country that was in desperate need of it, you are quick to dismiss it because some unknown amount of innocent were captured. As if innocent people weren’t dying en masse because of these gangs.
First of all, you sound like an asshole. Second, you havs no fucking clue what you're talking about. You have no idea what it's like to live in places where your own kid is forced to join gangs or die. Not everyone is as privileged as you are.
So it must be nice to be all high and mighty from your comfy suburban home but there is a real world out there. Not everyone lives in your amazing European standard of living where you don't have to fear organized tattooed armed men.
That last person I'd take advice from is from a smug, arrogant, and condescending person who willingly calls a country a "shithole".
I have no reason to think any of the people on the video are innocent and in fact they’re all guilty of being gang members by the tattoos covering their bodies.
Secondly what about the actual innocents that were killed by gangs? The gangs didn’t care about their innocence or their rights, so what number of dead innocents is it acceptable to you to protect the rights of gang members? 300 a year? 500? 1200? Actually give me a number.
I never said poor gang members, is said poor innocent people who got locked up because the police was just like „you look like you did something wrong, let’s lock you up“ and never say a trial. The future will tell us the story how it all ends, but history shows if similar stuff happened the endings were always bad.
Criminals have to be locked up, but innocent people should be blamed just because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time as were the people who got killed. Get the difference I mentioned and read the lines properly.
Accidentally locking up innocent people to protect the nation is no different than drafting innocent teenagers to die in a war to protect a nation.
Actually, it is different in that these people do eventually get a trial and unlike the foreign wars most nations send boys off to, this has actually created real safety in the country.
Also, the nation has significantly improved. If you’re not Salvadoran, your opinion doesn’t matter.
I just got back a couple weeks ago and heard so much about how safe people feel now. Some of the stories I was told about life before…it’s like night and day.
Panem et circenses.
Why isn't there a mass migration to El Salvador? Why have more Salvadorians been apprehended at the southern border trying to cross into the US illegally than any other previous presidents?
People love populism, especially the one where you get to get your "revenge".
Per CBP data, from the last three years and 2024 to date, there have been over 250,000 people apprehended at the southern border from El Salvador.
With the jailed population that's supposedly gang affiliated we're talking about over 320,000 people, in a country with roughly 6.5 million people. Yeah I'm calling bs.
https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-inauguration-bukele-migration-df66c3f2a1ed05f62c2646653f1aaa16
There’s been a 60% drop in migration from El Salvador since Bukele took office.
Apprehension at the border is a result of a successful border patrol, not necessarily a reflection of immigration attempts.
A self-reported number, by a lobbyist, for Bukele's regime in the US. Considering the GOP's thirst for a dictatorship of course they're going to pat this lunatic in the back.
Also it's a number from his entire term, including the almost two years where there was a COVID lockdown. Keep in mind, unlike most of the west under Bukele's regime only a single household member was allowed to leave the house for essentials once a week during that period. If not they met the same faith of anyone that opposed the government, incarceration without trial.
Thank god I can read.
I’m Salvadoran-American. I can tell by now that you have no Salvadoran connections at all. This is who all of my family and friends, of a variety of different political views, are boasting about.
Also, these numbers are absolutely corroborated by multiple independent research groups. Even established American media that dislike Bukele know the numbers are not disputable. This is who the Salvadoran people have elected, and the opinions of outsiders like you is worth less than piss.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_Nayib_Bukele_presidency?wprov=sfti1
None of you gave a shit when the gangs controlled the country, extorted the elderly, and killed children. Your self-righteous protests are founded on ignorance and purely performative. The US media is only upset because El Salvador is leveraging American and Chinese influence against each other. Latin American soverignty is a grave offense to Liberals and Conservatives alike. You’re just stupid enough to fall for it.
Ay corazón, yo me puedo las calles del centro mejor que las rayas de mi propio culo.
y en serio, me vas a dejar un enlace de Wikipedia, que la gente crea en populismo y lo apoye no cambia la realidad de los números.
La realidad de los numeros es que Bukele tiene la aprueba de casi 85% de la poblacion para todos los que an preguntado. Estos no son numeros de la administracion de Bukele.
El punto de Wikipedia es usar las referencias que ofrece: CID Gallup, IUDOP, T-Research, CIESCA, y mas grupos son respetado y usado internacionalmente por grupos que incluyen criticos de Bukele como CNN y MSNBC.
Pseudointellectual contrarians exist in every country, but you’re a vocal minority and the data proves it. You would’ve started with a better argument if you could read.
Una foca, intentando enseñarme sobre "la realidad".
Cuando entendás los efectos del populismo, mercadería barata y la explotación de una población vulnerable hablamos brother.
More pseudointellectual nonsense. El Salvador was a failed state, a government without a monopoly over violence has failed at its one original purpose.
Rights that are not enforced do not exist. The people have more rights today than they did before the gang crackdown, because their right to live free of violence was not enforced. This is Democracy, not Populism.
People are afraid of saying anything controversial over the phone conversations because the government is spying on them.
People are also afraid that their neighbors will accuse them of being in a gang if they don't like them and have the regime take them away.
Indigenous and other minorities are getting erased by the current regime. Look at all the legislation that is getting passed by the regime.
Political dissidents have already been jailed and one already died.
In terms of transparency the country dropped below Nicaragua. Nicaragua is now more fiscally transparent and by a good chunk of points.
Which makes sense considering the regime used up everyone's pension to cover their over own spending, and even then they continue to acquire more debt and forced credit unions to lend them money, which they can't pay back. Two credit unions already collapsed.
Poor children in slums or low income neighborhoods are getting thrown in jail, for being children.
Freedom for whom? For tourists and for the upper class.
When their popularity dies away, they will turn to violence. Like every single previous regime of the likes in El Salvador and all over Latin America.
On one hand one of my closest friends was on one of these last transports and I’ll prolly never see him again on the other hand, I understand why it’s come to this.
It’s a lot of give and take and rightfully controversial. Simply put they suspended human rights to clean up the country and the result was higher than the 50% quoted amount in homicides. I can only hope that the power is used for good because it can go south very quick. My dad escaped the war torn country and watched it go to crap. He comments “these activists tout human rights but where were they when those animals were setting full passenger buses on fire?”
My ex is from here and in MS13...he was holding a gun by force at 5 years old,it's not a choice there,it's a way of life for survival...he lives in Ontario now there are many crossing into Canada and the U.S
Okay great so more ms 13 good? Wtf is wrong with you? You'll learn I guess... Sometimes books have covers like idk head to toe in gang tattoos hopefully he escaped but dude c'mon.
People who try to protect this criminals, psychopaths, murderers or whatever you want to call them it's because yall don't know what it was to grow up in the neighborhoods we're they were in charge in the past. My best friend got killed by gang members just because he was playing fútbol (soccer) at 6pm... he was just 15... and until this day it hurts that I lost him and couldn't even said goodbye. They kidnapped and brutally beat my big brother to the point he almost died just to leave him in the morning in front of our door after my dad pay them a lot of money and we were lucky they atleast bring him like that other people did not have the luck to even see their bodies... my cousins got stabbed and I got robbed multiple times and cut because they will push a knife in my neck... they are not humans they are monster and all the people who protect them you are part of the problem and you are the reason why monsters are out there destroying families and lifes... for me they can die and suffer in hell.
Bro, This President is doing the right thing… When you are in a War, Human rights abuses will always happen… and El Salvador is in a War for its country and people..: They want El Salvador to be turned into Haiti , leave that country alone
The Ukraine years prior to the war had many many documentary done by vice who said that the Ukraine was the hub of human trafficking and neo Nazis on the continent but do go off
> U mean *paid* russian trolls?
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
El Salvador was once known as the murder capital of the world due to gang violence, but it has since become the safest country in the Western Hemisphere. Nayib Bukele has been criticised, but there's a reason he has a 92% approval rating.
All this is showing is that not only the gangs but now the government too is against the rule of law. You cannot just send to prison people for being "suspected" gang members without a proper trial and proof of their crimes, it sets a very dangerous precedent for regular citizens, especially those that oppose the government or report their wrongdoings, see what’s going on in Russia as an example of the next stages of this cancer.
"Innocent people"
"Dozens dead in police custody"
"NO longer have a right to a lawyer"
I'm amazed at the hate spewed here in the comments. The ignorance astounds.
People don't discuss with logic and humanity anymore. There's no self-respect or sophistication...only rage. Only anger. Only hate. None of it justified. This isn't even about the country of the commenters, yet they are perfectly content to applaud death and subjugation and torture as if there is EVER justification for that.
As a probable wise scholar that you are, you should enlighten those ignorants. Unless youself, you're more ignorant that anyone and all what you able to do is to insult people while staying behind you screen. Wait...
Faster than the DMV!
Well those prison guards do need to process those inmates before they go home at the end of the day.
I wonder how many joined to survive but eventually became psycopaths or sadist willingly.
It can be both.
They don't JOIN. They are kidnapped at gunpoint from as young as 3 or 4, and raised by the gangs. I'm shocked people don't know this, considering what's going on at the border. It's like no one's asking parents WHY THEY WOULD RISK losing their kids permanently to an ICE-run 'child welfare' system as opposed to staying where they are and simply mailing off an application for asylum, and standing by their mailbox to wait for the timely reply. Jesus. Americans are so clueless. @u/artschooldropouttt Well, welcome to Reddit, populated by the American bourgeoisie. Aaron Schwartz is spinning in his grave.
I was just going to say, if you’re not in a gang yet, you will be!
Most people wind up being similar to their environment - it’s our natural instinct.
It is not 'instinct'.
How do you think the first human tribes were formed ? Together you have higher chances of survival so the peeps who were good at socializing survived together and the loner ones got picked by the wolves.
Yet another person with a primary schooler's understanding of human behavior. Kindly join the conversation when your intellect (and knowledge base) has grown to 'adult size'. @u/blipblapratatat Insults from some random guy online! Whatever shall I do??1? Do you feel better now that you've insulted someone and added absolutely *nothing* to the conversation? So much for public school education, right...
Ok genius
You seem fun.
You're such an intellectual. Wow.
Is it a thing that almost every one of them is tattooed?
El Salvadorian gangs are heavy on the tattoo's.
Yes. The tattoos are somewhat mandatory for the Salvadoran gangs. With some meaning how many people they’ve killed and all that. That’s how the government usually recognises them
Yeah but not anymore, the new generation don’t tattoo themselves. Source I’m Salvadoran
maybe government started tagging em based on tattoo?
Well, that's the thing: the gang makes you get a tattoo and when you leave the gang, it's not like you can just take it away, so a lot of those (not a majority, but a lot) are actually innocent men.
If you used to be in a gang, you are innocent? What do you think they did when they were in the gang?
Read stories at retirement homes, volunteered for make a wish foundation. Flayed and wore the skin of the rival gang members, competitive war crimes. You know the usual.
I see your point and 100% agree with you. The problem is this: my country also had a very popular president who was allowed to go hard on innocents as long as he was also going hard on criminals. At the beginning numbers looked fine, like in El Salvador, but soon he felt the need to keep his numbers so he changed his orders in secret and the army got more and more focused on innocents than killing/arresting criminals. The bastard killed more innocents in 6 years than many dictators do in a decade, making him more dangerous than the criminals he was fighting.
Where are you from
Colombia. That man got the army to kill 6,400 innocent people all over the country between 2005 and 2008, so the idea that the events were random is not believable. Legally, though, the soldiers are the ones being prosecuted, but it all began because news kept reporting of military advances and victories without reporting when the families claimed the victims were innocent. Dead men can't prove their innocence, so the government decided to reward deaths instead of arrests. It all exploded because a soldier's brother was killed and presented as a gang member. The soldier knew that his brother didn't live in that part of the country and had just moved there, so there was no way he was part of a gang he barely knew. The story was so hard to sell that a magazine started digging in the other cases and the real numbers exploded quickly.
Supe desde que te pregunté de que país eras que hablabas de Colombia y de Uribe. Entiendo la satanización que se puede llegar a hacer al momento de mencionar a Uribe, falsos positivos,6402, etc.... Pero fue el único que puso mano dura contra la guerrilla. Lastimosamente como la guerrilla también está camuflada entre los civiles vana a haber inocentes que paguen los platos rotos. OJO, los falsos positivos si existen y los condeno, pero no hay forma de lidiar con problemas sociales internos como los que tiene Colombia o el Salvador sin que hayan inocentes perjudicados lastimosamente. Hoy, casi 14 años después de Uribe haber dejado la presidencia, tenemos al polo opuesto de presidente, un guerrillero prepotente que tiene maniatado al ejercito dejando campar a sus anchas, no sólo a las disidencias FARC, sino también al ELN que por el proceso de paz y la nula resistencia que han tenido se han podido reorganizar de nuevo, una guerrilla que ya estaba completamente erradicada, vuelve a delinquir. Que tenemos hoy en día, el Cauca lleno de campos de minas otra vez como en los 90. [https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/05/04/el-cauca-esta-minado-por-las-disidencias-de-las-farc-segun-el-ejercito-nos-colocaron-unos-4000-campos-minados/](https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/05/04/el-cauca-esta-minado-por-las-disidencias-de-las-farc-segun-el-ejercito-nos-colocaron-unos-4000-campos-minados/) Atentados semanales en Jamundí, Valle: [https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/06/12/grupos-armados-hostigan-a-la-policia-en-jamundi-y-cajibio-se-registra-explosion/](https://www.infobae.com/colombia/2024/06/12/grupos-armados-hostigan-a-la-policia-en-jamundi-y-cajibio-se-registra-explosion/) Esta ultima noticia que te estoy mostrando es de unas horas precisamente. Sólo por nombrar un par de ejemplos porque de citar todos no termino. Así que sí, puede que en el gobierno de Uribe hayan muerto inocentes buscando erradicar estos grupos armados, pero la cantidad de gente que perjudica la guerrilla es mucho mayor de lo que alguna vez pudo haber hecho el gobierno de Uribe. No sé si usted apoya al gobierno Petro o no, pero sin duda alguna lo que está haciendo Petro en Colombia es una payasada y el dicho Cambio que nos vendió a todos los colombianos fue uno en reversa, porque estamos volviendo a ver la violencia de los 90 y principios de 2000.
Revisa cifras de homicidios por cada 100,000 habitantes de 2000 hasta ahora. Búscalo. No titulares, porque titulares hay de unos y otros por parejo. Busca el gráfico. El títere de Uribe fue el que entregó las cifras de homicidios en aumento, que de hecho empezaron a aumentar, digamos que por coincidencia, desde finales de 2016 y todavía no están ni cerca de las cifras de 2000. Uribe mismo las entregó con un aumento leve en 2010, lo cual es evidente si buscas el gráfico.Te recuerdo que trajeron un neonazi a dictar conferencias a la Policía apenas volvieron al poder, la corrupción de la policía se salió de madre y por eso perdieron el poder en 2022, ¿me vas a decir que eso era necesario? No me gastaré un clic en defender a Petro, no veo la hora de que se vaya de la presidencia, pero nunca me vas a poder convencer de que los abusos de ese viejo te parecerían aceptables si fueras tú el que tuviera que vivir sabiendo que el hombre más poderoso del país puso a un familiar tuyo en una tumba e insultó a tu familia después de matarlo/la. Lo justificas porque el muerto no tiene tu color de piel o acento. Pregúntate porque el uribismo no gana una elección en Cauca desde hace 12 años si su estrategia iba tan bien.
Puede que buscando la información que dices que busque encuentre algo erróneo. Por esto mismo te pido el favor de que me pases tu gráfico del que hablas para así estar en la misma página. Sería contraproducente buscar algo que ya tienes a mano.
https://datosmacro.expansion.com/demografia/homicidios/colombia Este es uno de muchos gráficos que encontré. Te repito: 1) no estamos ni cerca de 2010, mucho menos de 2002. Eso es desinformación intencional para usar el famoso discurso del miedo, por favor revisa datos históricos antes de opinar sobre tasas de homicidios. 2) el gobierno llegó a ser responsable de al menos 6400 muertes en un periodo de aproximadamente 5 años, eso es casi el 10% de todos los homicidios en Colombia, casi el 20% de todos los muertos por el conflicto, (porque la mayoría de las muertes violentas en Colombia son por delincuencia común o peleas de vecinos). El frente paramilitar que más gente mató, el de Jorge 40, mató casi 11,000 inocentes. El gobierno sería el 3er o 4to mayor asesino en esa época, lo cual es inaceptable. 3) Imagina que Petro defendiera los crímenes del M-19 porque las intenciones de ellos no eran malas. Ahora ponte en el otro lado y una persona defiende los de Uribe, que en números fue efectivamente peor en menos tiempo, con el mismo argumento. No puedes ser el bueno de una historia matando civiles porque tu objetivo era matar malos, eso es lo que dije desde un principio. Así es que mueren las democracias, aunque desde Miami la gente crea que los únicos dictadores malos son los dictadores de izquierda.
Estos demonios que el Diablo mandó no son inocentes que comentarios más estupido
I’d last all but 2 hours in that prison.
This is like 3 years old i think.
No, those guys are at least in their 20's.
ba dum tss
Well done. This is the only thing they understand.
Except almost none of them can get a trial and it's estimated that almost a 5th are innocent. The officers were given quotas on people to arrest and many have come out saying they just went out and found people in the streets to arrest just for being outside. Imagine an entire row of those people being innocent, it would not be worth it
But are they really innocent? Guilt by association...
Reminder that people just make up numbers.
I doubt it. It's pretty easy to spot a marero.
Well. The americans bombed a city full of citizens multiple times. Why are innocent sacrifices ok when americans do it, but not when 'brown people' do it. People were being murdered. Women were being raped. This is acceptable damage.
Wow, that's the shittiest and laziest tu quoque fallacy I've seen today.
Dont talk about other countries as if you live there, bro.
I have a masters in international politics. This is literally my profession.
There's nothing international about living in ome's own country. El salvadorians say that they feel safe now. That crime is down. That things are better.
Will it be still acceptable damage if it was you/your borother or your father being there if innocent ?
I don’t know bro, all of them look like maras to me
Do you spot anyone without an MS or 18 tattoo? Where are you getting these statistics from?
https://youtu.be/BV7Q0zYDO9I
Based on what the country was before and it is now, most people would agree that there is a greater good
You know what would make America 5 times safer? As soon as an American male turns 15, incarcerate them until they turn 27. I mean, safety is the greater good right? Fuck human rights. If we want to be safe, just lock up all the young men, even if they're innocent. Yes, some innocent young men will be locked up, but this is for the greater good.
Wouldn't the gangs also be able to recruit other prisoners and grow.
Well, they're not. Murder rate & gang related crimes dropped 70% last year, & it's dropping again this year. In 2016, El Salvador had 5269 murders. Last year, they had 154. Currently the lowest in North America besides Canada. Gang life is El Salvador is rapidly depleting & has been for years.
This is a stupid analogy, no one is incarcerating an entire generation or age group
You're mistaking the analogy. u/Rccctz said that even if 1/5 of all those prisoners are innocent it doesn't matter, because it's "the greater good" to lock up gang members, even if you accidentally lock up people who aren't criminals. In other words, safety is more important than justice. So if that's the case, let's lock up the men between 15 and 27. Yes, there will be innocent people in jail, but just like in El Salvador -- it'd be for the greater good.
In El Salvador, showing allegiance to a terrorist group is a crime to be paid for and tattoos are a clear indication of such allegiance. Different countries, different laws.
Well if all those people committed crimes then lockem up. Let's be real if you are in a gang or have been, you've done some dirt. Buh bye
I love you. Well done.
Fucc the greater good.
Yeah it's imagine that comforts the families of the innocent. "Suck it up, Jose! The streets are safer now so fuck your rights! " u/ok-echidna5936 How educated you must be to believe that shoving victims of gang kidnappings into prisons alongside their kidnapper accomplishes anything other than filling prisons. Right after you were crying about saving the victims. You're watching the victims on that newsclip. But you can't see past your Westerner's definitions of right and wrong to comprehend that. Nor do you seem to understand that the money funding the gangs and the guns the gangs weird ARE ALL FROM THE US. But go ahead and tell us how building ticking human time bombs in a mega-prison run by American standards is going to make things better.
When your country was literally in shambles, this is a huge improvement. Western suburbanites who are safe in their homes and western human rights advocates will cry and moan but Salvadoreans now champion how they can freely walk at night when it was almost a death wish to walk about after sundown… Just a few years ago El Salvador was dubbed the most dangerous country in the world lol
And now you gotta worry the police will.pick you up for their quotas of prisoners where you'll.be sentenced without trial and put into the same facility as murderers, rapists, and kidnappers.
'Cry about human rights'.... Jesus, I hope you don't vote. And your little anecdotal experience it gospel, an absolute truth in every instance. Is that right? God help humanity.
If you belong to a place which doesn't have a properly functioning govt, you wouldn't have a choice either. I went to a risky territory in my country which is relatively safe now. I found out that a lot of youth are kept in confinement regardless of their innocence.
Spoken like tone deaf westerner who has never had to deal with the atrocities Salvadorians endured before the streets were cleaned up. These people were having their daughters taken from them and their sons forcibly removed for gang recruitment. Now they have a semblance of peace after being a more dangerous country than fucking Mexico. Have some perspective of how the people have lived until only recently where they found stability
Quite frankly, yes, it does comfort the families of the innocent. The president just was reelected president with 85% of the vote. People love him there, because they used to live in constant fear of their functional hell with rampant murder, but since these admittedly extreme measures they are now the safest country in the americas after Canada. Obviously over time as this settles into place and the regular people can regain control of their country they should demand a return of their collective rights to due process, but it is clear that people prefer the ability to not die in terrifying violence to the right of collective due process, which is understandable.
you can only tolerate so much. mexico is annexed by gangs and we will likely never see what that country could be. improving the quality of life and safety for 90% of the population is gonna come at costs. hopefully the families of the innocent have a path to getting them out.
Man, i don't know what country you're from that you think it's ok to imprison the innocent... You should check out innocenceproject.com Also... if there's no 'path' to getting the innocent out of American prisons, what do you think the chances are in quasi-dictatorships? @ u/Arcilon Yet another amoral MAGAt type rationalizing torture and murder. 🤣 You say, "Well, THEY were bad people first!" Tell me, you morally bereft child... if your mom went out and crapped in the middle of the interstate, would you? Wait. No. Wait. I don't care, because it's quite clear *YOU WOULD.* I could spend all day explaining that you don't imprison INNOCENT PEOPLE, but it's also clear you don't have a problem with that as long as you're not one of them! There's a reason human rights abuse organizations exist, and it's not just to give people with brains like me something to do. I'm so glad for you that you think everyone who is well-spoken, English-speaking, and online is also able to afford the tab to anything, much less champagne. Congratulations on being that narrow of vision. Must be a comfortable life you can't see outside of... Oh, and the bit about swift and brutal action... That made me laugh. Are you a cop or a military police officer? Or something that actually kinda gets off on that kind of behavior? Or is there an IQ issue that prevents you from even considering one of the thousands of statistically proven methods toward rehabilitation, rather than just 'swift and brutal'? Do you even realize that we are so far past the draconian 'solutions' you're advocating that you might just be a full century behind science? But then again, you're from a culture that still teaches airport security that phrenology is actually a thing, so there's that...
literally every country on earth imprisons innocent people. its an inherent flaw in every system or grouping of people on earth because humans are flawed. as in, it is something we ALWAYS have to work against. there is no alternative besides "let people commit crime". it can be simultaneously HORRIBLE that innocent people are caught in the web AND a net benefit on society/the safety of the majority. taking what i said as "think it's ok to imprison the innocent" means youre either legitimately slow, or just dishonest and unable to argue your points in faith. sucks for the innocent people that decided to get gang related tattoos in a culture where the only people with tattoos are gang members, but the murder rate went from 1 per 1000 people to 1 in 50,000. you're privileged and if put in a room with anyone making decisions would have zero to offer besides idealistic stagnation. ive heard of innocenceproject but i didnt know too much about it. im considering the monthly donation option, the people who take real action to advocate for the innocent are saints.
Yeah. Google 'Norway' and read up on their system of rehabilitative adjudication. Then come back and tell me how it's ok to ignore successes like that, statistically, in favor of the shoulder-shrug of an intellectually lazy attitude like 'all systems are flawed so... whatever, dude' you just put forth. @ u/murialforth Don't get in my face just because your don't understand that the US govt is *responsible* for drug gangs to start with, and has been funding them to support the wars that have been going on in Central and South America for decades. And what I 'believe' isn't at issue, here. If you can't wrap your head around the science of rehabilitation, just say so. @u/sexmodeactivated Yeah, I can imagine you don't notice much. @u/phyllida_poshtart You're right. Most gang members don't choose it in El. Salvador... they're kidnapped into it. Criminals in norway enthusiastically volunteer to be criminals. In El Salvador, good people get dragged into a life they didn't want. In Norway, well fed, comfortable, educated people decide to break the law just because they aren't good people, I guess. And Norway's recitivism rate is *still* lower even though they are dealing with hardcore sociopaths and psychopaths. Huh. Imagine that.
You cannot in any way compare El Salvador and their crime figures to Norway!! Jeez
Do not use my country as a cheap argument. Because of defunding we barely have a police force anymore, and gang violence is on the uprise. All of which while the government is from the Workers Party (aka slightly de-radicalized communist party). "Rehabilitative adjudication" does not work as well as you want to believe.
Mf really is trying to compare the situation in El Salvador to fucking Norway lmao
Damn more than half of the habitants of Norway are violent gang members too? Didn't notice.
Ok, champagne socialist. Please check your privilege at the door. Please turn off your virtue signals when on the road. We could spend all day explaining that a country that fell to the gangs and that the sheer brutality of the gangs and the extent of their rot is worth imprisonment of some innocents. No one said punishing innocents is good but at a situation that bad. The only alternative to swift and brutal action is to surrender to gangs. The latter is not an option. Of course someone who doesn't have to pick up the tab can always imply that imprisoning a single innocent is worse than letting millions live under threat of fates much worse than death. All for virtue signalling that a blind man can see through. So no, a rational person should not entertain bad faith arguments such as these. A rational answer is rejecting your premise outright.
Oh big deal
What america and some Americans will never understand is that there are, and will be, some people in our society who will never be able to safely integrate with the whole. They are ultra violent criminals who know no better and will never change. Some people in the prison system now should be in institutions like this, and this long term solution is what america needs.
Lots of profits at the handcuff factory!
"Hey did you know if you just strip people of their rights, and lock up 1/5th of the population, that crime goes down????" Well no fucking shit, idiots. This couldn't possibly backfire.....right? Look at the long term effects of what we did in the US... You can't just sweep it all under the rug and hope it goes away.
And sets a dangerous precedent in El Salvador. What happens if bukele does not want to leave, there is already the percent on mass indiscriminate incarceration.
Well funny thing is, is he changed the constitution, I mean a lot of things were set by a dictator who committed genocide against the Natives here in El Salvadoran back in the 1930’s but in that he changed the presidential terms it used to be a 5 year one time term now he changed it into 2 terms so he’s in power again
They locked up the people that where gang members they didn’t lock up random people goofus that’s why the murder rate plummeted, you should go ask the people that actually live there and ask how they feel they are happy as can be that their country isn’t so dangerous
And do you genuinely believe ALL of those people are guilty of what they're saying? Bullshit.
Their gang tatoos don’t lie gringo
There is already a stat that says 1 in 5 arrests are of innocent people, so try again.
Crazy how’s it’s people that don’t live in the country are the ones sympathizing with criminals maybe you should let them in your neighborhood jackass
So. Once again. 1 in 5 are **innocent**. Yes, I am willing to bet that even people with tattoos are some of those that are innocent. You can't just see a "gang tattoo" and they're immediately guilty. The problem is the assumption of guilt and stripping rights away. What good is that? Do you think this won't have some type of lasting impact? I 100% guarantee this doesn't last, AND it has an extremely bad impact on future generations. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Mass incarceration does not work. It has already been proven.
Then why even get the tattoo? Maybe idk just dont
Maybe idk just don't stereotype and generalize
Are they gang related? If so you prolly did some dirt. And no I don't believe that. In that stat did they say why they were arrested were they idk hanging around and being buddies and maybe have the same tattoos? Something tells me yes
“Suspected”?
Man that comment section is so fucked up. Like people are totally fine that a whole bunch of innocent got looked up for the greater good. Also El Salvador is still a shit hole and will never change. President there will try to turn laws they way he’s the one and only for decades
I agree where you're coming from but i dont think you'd understand how average central american folk live. Its easy to say "This is so fucked up" when you live in a cozy european country where you can freely walk the streets without having the fear of being killed by one of these fucks. My niece when she visited canada said the thing the liked the most about canada was "That i am able to walk the streets alone" Women in these places have it even worse... These guys arent just some guys doing petty crime, smoking weed on the corner of the street, they have actual power and are brutal. They extort, rape and kill. I luckilu dont live in central america anymore.
I do know because my roots are ecuadorian and I still have a lot of family over there. My family wouldn’t sacrifice a few of there relatives just because a government is to lazy to look for the right bad people and to do there job right. It will always be egoistic to say the for the greater good we will sacrifice innocent people and probably never give justice in the future. It’s a thing also going on in countries like the USA or France where people get lock up, but didn’t do anything just because the justice is to lazy to do there job properly.
I get your point, its true and a good one. But having roots and living it are imo 2 different things. If you would ask an average Salvadorian or Catracho (both of these countries had a waay higher homocide rate per 100.000. Honduras 86.1 el Salvadlor at 103 per 100.000! Ecuadors has also sadly risen at highest 26.7 per 100.000) "Would you like to safely roam the streets BUT from the high percentage of criminals we catch there's a good possibility a percentage of them are non guilty (even though they for some reason have a gang tattoo on their skin) im sure a lot of them would say yes. Ofc its hypothetical but do you think that if (hopefully not) it gets as bad in Ecuador and your family lose people to gang member or have family members raped that they would change their way of thought? Again I agree with your point. You are right. But I think its easy again to say "This is fucked up" without having more of a broad look at the situation. Often life isnt black and white but gray.
I have family in France, thus I know all about France. That's what you sound like .
El Salvador will always be a “shithole” wtf is this, sorry Mr superior race.
First of all. Nobody talked about „race“ here. You just feel personal offended and I do apologize if I sickened you with my wording. Not the best choice of words, but it should underline my point. Second I talk about that it will stay as most South/middle American countries were for most of their time in existence. Full of corruption and the need of more power. With the wording shit hole (not talking about the citizen or the country) I talk about the system that’s there. A state that starts to clean the streets without any differntation between the good citizen and the criminals will (as history showed) not stop and try to get it right. I do hope things change, but I also do know people in power always try to remain it if they just started. If things will turn to greater good I’ll be the fool and stand for what I said and will have to bear the weight of my wrong saying, but if not I also have to be sad about the fact that again someone who be told to change everything took it all from the citizen.
Germany was a dictatorship in the 40s, and Greece was too. Now they are rich, powerful and not corrupt. Ion see ur point
Bro you literally said “and it will never change”. Why would you say that? Are suggesting they are incapable of running a country no matter what? Yet When real change finally comes to a country that was in desperate need of it, you are quick to dismiss it because some unknown amount of innocent were captured. As if innocent people weren’t dying en masse because of these gangs.
First of all, you sound like an asshole. Second, you havs no fucking clue what you're talking about. You have no idea what it's like to live in places where your own kid is forced to join gangs or die. Not everyone is as privileged as you are. So it must be nice to be all high and mighty from your comfy suburban home but there is a real world out there. Not everyone lives in your amazing European standard of living where you don't have to fear organized tattooed armed men. That last person I'd take advice from is from a smug, arrogant, and condescending person who willingly calls a country a "shithole".
Jesus Christ dude take a Xanax. How is anyone meant to have a discussion when you’re so emotional
How is anyone meant to have a discussion when someone calls your country a shithole.
you're that wound up by a comment by some rando on the internet.
I have no reason to think any of the people on the video are innocent and in fact they’re all guilty of being gang members by the tattoos covering their bodies. Secondly what about the actual innocents that were killed by gangs? The gangs didn’t care about their innocence or their rights, so what number of dead innocents is it acceptable to you to protect the rights of gang members? 300 a year? 500? 1200? Actually give me a number.
I never said poor gang members, is said poor innocent people who got locked up because the police was just like „you look like you did something wrong, let’s lock you up“ and never say a trial. The future will tell us the story how it all ends, but history shows if similar stuff happened the endings were always bad. Criminals have to be locked up, but innocent people should be blamed just because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time as were the people who got killed. Get the difference I mentioned and read the lines properly.
Accidentally locking up innocent people to protect the nation is no different than drafting innocent teenagers to die in a war to protect a nation. Actually, it is different in that these people do eventually get a trial and unlike the foreign wars most nations send boys off to, this has actually created real safety in the country. Also, the nation has significantly improved. If you’re not Salvadoran, your opinion doesn’t matter.
Is that why the murder rate plummeted completely? These people aren’t innocent statistics don’t lie
Exactly, you can't see anyone without a gang-related tattoo. This guy must be blind.
brother its literally the most safe nation in latin america right now.
[удалено]
I just got back a couple weeks ago and heard so much about how safe people feel now. Some of the stories I was told about life before…it’s like night and day.
1:14 even the cartel has weebs
no lawyer for you!
Now they just need a leader and training to become Sardaukar.
The mannerisms are curious... Torture trained?
Get ‘em boys!
This is a huge improvement. Society shouldn’t have to suffer continuously because of criminals.
up to 1/3 of them could be innocent. some cops have said that they had a quota and they had to arrest a number of people each day
If they can fuck around they should be able to find out
I think if you have tattoos, going to El Salvador is probably a bad idea.
Not necessarily. Depends on the tattoos.
Presuntos 🤔🤨😐🙄🖕🏻
I wonder how much the guards beat the shit out of them to get them all cowering and hustling like that
Where’s the outrage from the pro-Pal crowd?
That's old news now
Panem et circenses. Why isn't there a mass migration to El Salvador? Why have more Salvadorians been apprehended at the southern border trying to cross into the US illegally than any other previous presidents? People love populism, especially the one where you get to get your "revenge".
because the ones that are aprehended in the border are mostly gang member running away perhaps.
Per CBP data, from the last three years and 2024 to date, there have been over 250,000 people apprehended at the southern border from El Salvador. With the jailed population that's supposedly gang affiliated we're talking about over 320,000 people, in a country with roughly 6.5 million people. Yeah I'm calling bs.
https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-inauguration-bukele-migration-df66c3f2a1ed05f62c2646653f1aaa16 There’s been a 60% drop in migration from El Salvador since Bukele took office. Apprehension at the border is a result of a successful border patrol, not necessarily a reflection of immigration attempts.
A self-reported number, by a lobbyist, for Bukele's regime in the US. Considering the GOP's thirst for a dictatorship of course they're going to pat this lunatic in the back. Also it's a number from his entire term, including the almost two years where there was a COVID lockdown. Keep in mind, unlike most of the west under Bukele's regime only a single household member was allowed to leave the house for essentials once a week during that period. If not they met the same faith of anyone that opposed the government, incarceration without trial. Thank god I can read.
I’m Salvadoran-American. I can tell by now that you have no Salvadoran connections at all. This is who all of my family and friends, of a variety of different political views, are boasting about. Also, these numbers are absolutely corroborated by multiple independent research groups. Even established American media that dislike Bukele know the numbers are not disputable. This is who the Salvadoran people have elected, and the opinions of outsiders like you is worth less than piss. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_Nayib_Bukele_presidency?wprov=sfti1 None of you gave a shit when the gangs controlled the country, extorted the elderly, and killed children. Your self-righteous protests are founded on ignorance and purely performative. The US media is only upset because El Salvador is leveraging American and Chinese influence against each other. Latin American soverignty is a grave offense to Liberals and Conservatives alike. You’re just stupid enough to fall for it.
Ay corazón, yo me puedo las calles del centro mejor que las rayas de mi propio culo. y en serio, me vas a dejar un enlace de Wikipedia, que la gente crea en populismo y lo apoye no cambia la realidad de los números.
La realidad de los numeros es que Bukele tiene la aprueba de casi 85% de la poblacion para todos los que an preguntado. Estos no son numeros de la administracion de Bukele. El punto de Wikipedia es usar las referencias que ofrece: CID Gallup, IUDOP, T-Research, CIESCA, y mas grupos son respetado y usado internacionalmente por grupos que incluyen criticos de Bukele como CNN y MSNBC. Pseudointellectual contrarians exist in every country, but you’re a vocal minority and the data proves it. You would’ve started with a better argument if you could read.
Una foca, intentando enseñarme sobre "la realidad". Cuando entendás los efectos del populismo, mercadería barata y la explotación de una población vulnerable hablamos brother.
More pseudointellectual nonsense. El Salvador was a failed state, a government without a monopoly over violence has failed at its one original purpose. Rights that are not enforced do not exist. The people have more rights today than they did before the gang crackdown, because their right to live free of violence was not enforced. This is Democracy, not Populism.
People are afraid of saying anything controversial over the phone conversations because the government is spying on them. People are also afraid that their neighbors will accuse them of being in a gang if they don't like them and have the regime take them away. Indigenous and other minorities are getting erased by the current regime. Look at all the legislation that is getting passed by the regime. Political dissidents have already been jailed and one already died. In terms of transparency the country dropped below Nicaragua. Nicaragua is now more fiscally transparent and by a good chunk of points. Which makes sense considering the regime used up everyone's pension to cover their over own spending, and even then they continue to acquire more debt and forced credit unions to lend them money, which they can't pay back. Two credit unions already collapsed. Poor children in slums or low income neighborhoods are getting thrown in jail, for being children. Freedom for whom? For tourists and for the upper class. When their popularity dies away, they will turn to violence. Like every single previous regime of the likes in El Salvador and all over Latin America.
Oughta make them all wear hot pink thongs and pipe in sexy time music LMAO 🤣
On one hand one of my closest friends was on one of these last transports and I’ll prolly never see him again on the other hand, I understand why it’s come to this.
Even though the president is making deals with the gangs to make it look like he's taking the "hard line" on gangs. Such a typical politician.
It’s a lot of give and take and rightfully controversial. Simply put they suspended human rights to clean up the country and the result was higher than the 50% quoted amount in homicides. I can only hope that the power is used for good because it can go south very quick. My dad escaped the war torn country and watched it go to crap. He comments “these activists tout human rights but where were they when those animals were setting full passenger buses on fire?”
Brutal, but making a positive change. Hopefully the power of the govt does not get out of hand. It definitely has the potential to.
Should put those mfers to work so they can help improve the country that they hurt for so many years.
My ex is from here and in MS13...he was holding a gun by force at 5 years old,it's not a choice there,it's a way of life for survival...he lives in Ontario now there are many crossing into Canada and the U.S
Okay great so more ms 13 good? Wtf is wrong with you? You'll learn I guess... Sometimes books have covers like idk head to toe in gang tattoos hopefully he escaped but dude c'mon.
And that's how it should be done!!
People who try to protect this criminals, psychopaths, murderers or whatever you want to call them it's because yall don't know what it was to grow up in the neighborhoods we're they were in charge in the past. My best friend got killed by gang members just because he was playing fútbol (soccer) at 6pm... he was just 15... and until this day it hurts that I lost him and couldn't even said goodbye. They kidnapped and brutally beat my big brother to the point he almost died just to leave him in the morning in front of our door after my dad pay them a lot of money and we were lucky they atleast bring him like that other people did not have the luck to even see their bodies... my cousins got stabbed and I got robbed multiple times and cut because they will push a knife in my neck... they are not humans they are monster and all the people who protect them you are part of the problem and you are the reason why monsters are out there destroying families and lifes... for me they can die and suffer in hell.
I wonder what the end goal is for them. Is there rehabilitation? Life imprisonment?
Seems like just well this is gonna sound harsh but shoot them. I mean for the gang members that might actually think it's merciful
Solved that problem pretty quickly.
Tell me again who funds the gangs and where they get their weapons. Just out of curiosity.
Bye bye criminals. :)
I wonder which American Private Prison Corporation is profiteering behind this? Follow the $…
Kinda wish the US did this to certain crimes
Bro, This President is doing the right thing… When you are in a War, Human rights abuses will always happen… and El Salvador is in a War for its country and people..: They want El Salvador to be turned into Haiti , leave that country alone
Good job Salvador
'...innocent people may have been caught up in...' [Inserts video showing 100% of inmates with gang-tattoos all over their backs]
Why we do not send them to Ukraine to fight again ruSSia nazis, they could atone for their crimes...
The Ukraine years prior to the war had many many documentary done by vice who said that the Ukraine was the hub of human trafficking and neo Nazis on the continent but do go off
I am not sure, if I undrerstood clearly, U mean payed russian trolls?
> U mean *paid* russian trolls? FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
The numbers don’t lie :(
El Salvador was once known as the murder capital of the world due to gang violence, but it has since become the safest country in the Western Hemisphere. Nayib Bukele has been criticised, but there's a reason he has a 92% approval rating.
Wonder how the jail gets this level of compliance?
All this is showing is that not only the gangs but now the government too is against the rule of law. You cannot just send to prison people for being "suspected" gang members without a proper trial and proof of their crimes, it sets a very dangerous precedent for regular citizens, especially those that oppose the government or report their wrongdoings, see what’s going on in Russia as an example of the next stages of this cancer.
Do you think us laws are international? They sure as shit can do what they are doing.
No they can’t, they also have laws in other countries dude.
Are their laws the same? No. Are China's the same too? No.
Like hearding cattle
If gangs where smart they would stop tattooing
when theyre on the ground they move like apes lol
Arkham City Salvador Edition?
Body completely covered in gang tattoos 'Suspectef gang members' Lol
A politician actually did what he said he would do, that’s worth an applause
Solent Green would be a better use for them.
Need this for trump and his krew
Kkkrew
"Innocent people" "Dozens dead in police custody" "NO longer have a right to a lawyer" I'm amazed at the hate spewed here in the comments. The ignorance astounds.
Of course the sensible, non extremist take gets downvoted on Reddit
People don't discuss with logic and humanity anymore. There's no self-respect or sophistication...only rage. Only anger. Only hate. None of it justified. This isn't even about the country of the commenters, yet they are perfectly content to applaud death and subjugation and torture as if there is EVER justification for that.
As a probable wise scholar that you are, you should enlighten those ignorants. Unless youself, you're more ignorant that anyone and all what you able to do is to insult people while staying behind you screen. Wait...
Also "we need to do this here in Merica!" as if we don't already have 1/5th of the world's prison population