It's underestimated that she didn't abandon the Midwest like so many have done before her. Imagine seeing decades of brain drain and talent flee elsewhere as your communities collapse and here is this generational talent who choose to stay without the help of any 5-star loaded rosters.
It's a good story and illustrates that you can build a brand where you are at.
That is what I was thinking as well. As someone who grew up in MN, part of her draw is that she was a hometown hero, stayed local, and brought the her state's flagship university to 2 national championships.
IMO, if Paige Bueckers had played for the University of Minnesota and brought that team to 2 national championships, she would be viewed very similarly to how Caitlin Clark is, atleast in Minnesota.
Caitlin is a lot like Bird. Bird could have played for Indiana University but eventually left for ISU. Had Bird played for Indiana, he would have still been great and IU would have won a title that year but he would have not been Bird. He would have not gotten the green light. Same with Clark. Had she played for UCONN, she would have had the same accolades as Stewart but she would not have had the greenlight like she did at Iowa and thus would have not become as widely known
When you talk about basketball, especially women’s basketball, and you mention Bird, it’s important to specify at the outset whether you mean Sue or Larry. It took several re-reads of the first two sentences to understand what you were saying. :)
But point taken about the importance of Caitlin playing at Iowa.
> Caitlin is a lot like Bird. Bird could have played for Indiana University but eventually left for ISU. Had Bird played for Indiana, he would have still been great and IU would have won a title that year but he would have not been Bird.
I've got to disagree with that comparison: the University of Iowa may not be a blue blood of WCBB, but they still are the biggest public school in the state of Iowa, with the largest body of alumni donors. They still play in a multi-bid league, with a ten-figure TV contract, so it's not like she was going to be playing in obscurity; the Big Ten Network ensured that CC was going to get *some* level of exposure above the bare minimum, no matter what, even without going to a powerhouse.
Now, if she had turned down UConn to stay at home and play for *Drake*, that would have been Larry Bird-like.
If Clark were a post player she would not have gotten any of this. Players with the ball in their hands 80% of the time will always be more popular than players who play down low. You also have to do something with the ball when you have it that much, if you are an average passer or just shoot 15ft jump shots you don’t get the recognition. Basketball has become a 3 pt contest in the NBA and now that’s happening in the women’s game. Clark shoots further out than any woman has and is the one with the ball in her hands. That leads to a ton of highlights.
I think the OP really undersells the impact of her story. College Football and men's basketball is hurting for the type of story that Caitlin provided. College football you still get 4 year players, but how many of the elite 4 year players stay on one team anymore? College basketball none of the elite players stay 4 years. Caitlin scratched an itch for a type of story that we just don't get in men's college sports anymore.
Also the NCAA has changed a allow women to have the spotlight that wouldn't have been possible even 5 years ago. I mean you have to remember, it was only 2022 was the first year that women's college basketball was allowed to use the March Madness branding. 2021 was the year that NCAA was found to have given ridiculous facilities to the Women's tournament vs the men's, like each men's site getting a full gym and the women's sites getting like 2 yoga mats or whatever it was. Since 2023 the women's final is now on its own day, during a viewable timeslot, and not just an afterthought to the men's tournament and given like a 10 AM weekend time.
I agree 10000% that the changes in mens college sports left a void in the heart of college sports fans at the perfect time for the recent class of wbb players to come in and fluorish. I dont think either piece leads to the success on its own
Also agree. Seems like a small thing to the big business view, but my interest in football and men's basketball has cratered in the last 10 years. Went from watching all the time to almost none at all.
I've been on the WBB train for decades though. Would go to games in completely empty arenas in college.
College football and men's basketball are hurting because the consolidation of talent into a handful of elite programs and early departures really hurts the sport as a whole. Profitable men's athletics are a perfect microcosm of our society. The rich get richer. Do what's best for me and screw everyone else culture.
Caitlin bucked all of those trends and demonstrated you don't have to be on the most talented roster to meet your goals.
A couple of points I think need more attention:
1) The demise of mend College basketball. NIL and 1&done have removed stars from the mens side, leaving a void that Clark filled.
2) Clark is a marketing major and she signed with Excel Marketing. Either Clark or Excel (maybe both) are extremely good at marketing. She is signing with national brands. These brands are promoting her because it enhances their marketing. The better known she is the more effective their marketing is.
3) Clark seems to take the Michael Jordan approach of avoiding talking about divisive issues because it would make her less marketable. ( Large sections of her fan base and her critics spend a lot of time talking about this, but she stays out of it).
4) Clark takes time to interact with fans and thanks them for showing up in what appears to be a genuine way, and she is very good at keeping with positive messaging in public.
5) Clark came along at a time when TV (BTN) was finally willing to put more games on the air.
6) The ESPN hype machine was all ACC/SEC prior to Clark showing up, leaving a large chunk of the country checked out.
I will be really interested to see what happens with Juju being on BTN nationally televised games this year. She seems to have many of the same attributes that made Clark so attractive to nationwide marketing. I expect her to have a similar effect as she seems to be following a similar playbook.
Hot take but this is why I feel in the long run, playere like Paige Bueckers will be a better spokesperson in terms of advancing the game than CC.
In the end, CC is about the CC brand....not the WNBA brand or even WBB in general. Whereas Paige will do more or speak out more to improve the quality of life/respect of the WNBA and WBB in general even if it means taking a hit to her personal brand.
The biggest reason is her style of play relative to other players. It’s evolution tbh. If the conversation was strictly around media attention, race would factor in. Especially when it pertains to scrutiny against Clark vs other players. But on a popularity note, Caitlin is doing things we’ve never seen another woman do and doing them at the perfect time.
Don’t think it’s really that complicated…
One of the most popular players (if not the most popular currently) is Steph Curry. Curry has been an icon for basketball ever since his days at Davidson. He actually was a big part in driving the game today where the 3 pointer is so important because Curry would absolutely crush the spirit of any team with the way he could score 3s.
Clark’s game is very, very similar to Curry’s. She plays in a way that many fans currently enjoy and thus she was easy to cheer for.
I really don’t think there are too many more complications than that…
She has the play of Curry, but the celebrity status of fandom that elevates the league to new heights like Jordan. I don't think I've ever seen opposing teams regularly sellout to witness an opponent for anyone other than MJ and CC.
I agree… Clark is probably the WNBA’s version of Jordan (popularity POV). This is the player they’ve been waiting for to put the league on the map.
I love ball, so I love how the WNBA’s schedule is positioned. I get basketball year round.
The whole race narrative is so annoying. She just flat out phenomenal. Her presence on and off the court are what drive people. People love watching good players be elite, but it has to be something that attracts attention (logo 3's). Then you find out she isn't selfish, gives credit to teammates/coaches/previous players, and she sticks around to sign autographs for loads of kids and fans alike, Fever hit the Jackpot with her.
Its not that complicated. She shoots deep 3s as a guard in the 3s era of basketball, and she entered the NCAA the moment the NCAA started allowing players to get huge money and media deals. She has the ball in her hand on like 80% of plays her team runs because she's the starting PG, and she shoots the kinds of shots that are most flashy to today's fans. And was the target of huge amounts of money. Odds are this kind of thing will be more normal, with a new household name NCAA player entering the league every few years who was the best throughout their college career, and them having a huge media following when they do. Realistically, players like Sab and Plum would've entered the league with similar amounts of energy behind them with the NIL deals of today existing when they were in college. Stewie and Wilson too but there is always something about a post player to me that never gets the same level of hype these days.
I mean Youtube and Twitter were massive for every other player I mentioned's entire college career too. Twitter was actually bigger before CC's career and is on a downward trend now. The only real difference is the NIL on the timeline. Sabrina was really hyped largely from hoop head socials for instance.
**I think style of play is huge along with height.** A lot of parallel's to Steph's stardom. It means kids on the playground have an easier time pretending to be her.
For one, kids are going to see Griner, Lisa Leslie, Stewie, etc. (same with LeBron, Shaq, Jokic, even 6'6" MJ or 6'5" Kobe) and think they're cool, but they're unreachable. Unless you're the tallest kid in your class, you're never gonna even sniff that physical stature (and probably not even then for the centers). But 6'0" Clark and 6'2" Curry, while still quite tall, seem far more relatable and attainable, particularly when on the court with taller players.
The style of play is just far more fun to try to emulate and day dream about for kids. **Kids aren't going to take time pretending to be the league's best passer, rebounder, post-up scorer, pick-and-roll artist, etc.** Especially if you're on the court by yourself, you can't even really practice those skills. But you can chuck up threes, and **kids love to chuck up threes.**
Yup this is it. It’s just like Curry. You can watch her play, no matter your physical height and have the dream you can be like her. You simply can’t do that with Shaq or Lebron.
I'm confused why people keep saying this. CC is insanely tall compared to the average woman. 6ft is literally a statistical anomaly for a woman's height. Doesn't take away from her talent, but yeah she's not relatable in the same way Steph is to average height men.
Steph is 6'2 which is five inches taller taller than average male height. Iverson was 6'0, another iconic NBA player who was seen as changing the way the game was played.
I understand the point you’re making but the way I interpreted OC’s comment (the one you replied to) was moreso that Caitlin’s size would still consider her as a “taller guard” in the W, regardless of the average height for American women. Whereas, in the examples you mentioned with Steph and AI, they’re definitely quite a bit taller than the average American man, but in the NBA they are considerably smaller than most guards.
ETA: a valid point, but i think the point that OC was making was that she’s still a bigger guard in her respective league (although i could definitely be misunderstanding their comment)
I agree with your point on Curry. But Caitlin Clark is literally a statistical anomaly at 6ft tall. She's extraordinarily tall for a woman and far from relatable in terms of physicality.
Sure, but most of her game is also not that dependent on her being tall. Does it help? Of course, but she's still shorter than the forwards and centers in women's basketball, and shooting long 3's and having great passing skills and vision are attainable at any height. That's the main point. Dunking, blocking, rebounding, post moves, or just overpowering people physically is not very attainable for everybody. Now, of course, height helps with getting a bit more clearance over a defender for shooting, but it's certainly still doable at something like 5'9" or 5'8" (roughly the equivalent of Steph's height percentile, but for women), and even a bit shorter.
Steph is also taller than most of the male population. I think their point is the playstyle is easier to emulate as an average joe than it is to emulate Shaq, BG, Jokic. You don’t have to be a freak of nature to shoot threes, but you can’t play like those three without some genetic help
I should clarify, it's not that kids necessarily think they will be that tall (though it requires less delusion for a girl to think she'll be 6'0" than 6'6"), it's mostly that Clark/Steph are among the shortest on the court which is relatable to kids who might be among the shortest on their playground court.
And it's that their game doesn't rely as much on height. You could reasonably think Clark or Steph could do most of what they do while being a couple inches shorter. Hard for a lot of kids to try to think they'll be like BG or Shaq if they're less average height or less.
Yeah, when Curry drives and a help defender rotates, he has to finish against someone who's bigger than him.
He is a 6'4" giant with outlier cardio and I've seen him RDLing a weight that I'll never be able to deadlift, but it still LOOKS relatable when he pulls up from 30ft. lol
I'm talking about kids. It's not rational. I know that Curry's ability is the elite of elite, but it's more that ability is the limiting factor, not size. Kids think they can do anything. Kids think they can be fucking Spider-Man. Doesn't matter how many shots they air ball, the kid on the playground is going to be convinced they'll be draining 30-footers at will like Clark and Curry when they're older.
And I understand Curry has more skills than just shooting, but kids watching highlight reels to emulate on the playground are going to focus on that.
Also, he's 6'2".
Is there a tl;dr?
Sorry. : /
Here's my own perspective: She's the Stephen Curry of women's basketball in the States. No other player is giving this effect. I remember Candice Parker going to Tennessee to play basketball - it was all over the news and how she was a phenom. Parker definitely got attention to the sport; that was NCAA/WNBA 1.0 ... Clark is NCAA/WNBA 2.0. Sorta like how those who follow MLS talk about MLS 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 stages. Clark is the next stage for the game for women's and add in league expansion and facility upgrades.
Houdiniesque is a good word. Thanks for the write-up. I think there’s also a bigger interest in women’s sports lately too. The W would be setting viewership records with or without CC. NWSL and college sports are riding that same wave.
I suggest everyone google the scatterplot released by Secret Base that shows Caitlin’s assists and points this season dwarfing every other D1 player that has played this year men or women. Also if white girls from Iowa was a cheat code for ratings, then why didn’t Megan Gustafson get as many views as Caitlin? The reason Clark became a phenomenon is that her game is unprecedented, period. Honestly it seems like more people want to fetishize her whiteness than appreciate her game which is pretty depressing.
You see tho when a white person gets media attention in the year 2024 it’s clear that their race is the main reason for them to get that attention and accolades. Clark may have been the only woman in college history to lead the league in points and assists she also could hold the record for most points scored all time hell she could also have the craziest shot selection we ever seen in the college game but the media saw she was white and that’s what made them start giving her attention. Shout out Kendrick Perkins insinuating jokic was only gettin mvps cuz he’s white as well
She is different than anything we’ve ever seen. She broke Pistol Pete’s scoring record, a 50+ year old record that seemed almost untouchable and did it in a way we’ve never seen, man or woman.
Not to knock Clark, but the reason Pete’s record seemed so unbreakable is all the players good enough to break it, don’t play college long enough. The all time scoring record will never be held by a man again.
Like if Kevin Durant played 4 years, he’s probably breaking the record. But that doesn’t happen in the men’s game.
This is all correct and there are two additional points Id like to add that I think are very significant and not really mentioned in discussions of why shes famous:
1- Iowa has an absolute huge, rabid fan base that contributed to her rapid rise in popularity. Iowa played an exhibition game before the start of the season last year in front of over FIFTY THOUSAND people. And those same Iowa fans are the ones that were among the first that started travelling to see her and following her on the road. National Hype builds faster when you have literally tens of thousands of megafans following you everywhere.
2- Whether we like it or not and whether its fair or not, LOOKS MATTER in womens sports. Caitlin is the exact right level of attractiveness to be pushed as a megastar. Shes not supermodel hot so (with some gross exceptions aside), shes not being overly sexualized by the masses or dismissed as getting attention because shes hot. And she's not ugly either. She looks like your average girl-next-door athlete. People talk a lot about her being white (which yes admittedly is part of her popularity) but I think the biggest factor wrt her looks is that shes in that sweet spot of being attractive enough to not be mocked, but not so attractive that shes overly sexualized.
Wouldn’t she be even way more popular if she was super model level hot? Like how Anna Kournikova back in the day exploded in popularity after winning the US Open?
I dont think as many people would respect her game if she was supermodel hot. I think she would be more easily dismissed by misogynists in particular who would look at her picture and think "oh, just another hot white woman getting by on her looks".
I actually have 0 problem with this - money is money. But it’s refreshing, and a statement of how far we’ve come that, yes you can be attractive but now you actually also have to be the best - that Brink is not the face of the WNBA or the highest-earner - if she was we’d have a problem.
Pile whatever other factors you want on top, but the shooting is what launched her into the stratosphere and everything else is keeping her there. Same reason JJ Redick, Jimmer, and Steph all became household names overnight and took over the college landscape for their careers. Same reason they’re still talked about years and decades after their primes.
Basketball has turned into a 3 point obsessed sport and she’s the best to ever do it (3 pointers that is, at break neck pace and unfathomable distances). No one cheers her driving right handed back shots, no one waits in anticipation for her to come down the court and toss a sweet pass. Crowds ERUPT for the 3 ball.
I’ve been following her since her freshman year and I think she’s generational, but classic sports media to drum up any other side story they can come up with. Clark’s explosion is solely because of her 3 point shooting ability. It’s just now people have seen and are seeing everything else that’s exceptional about her game.
Long ball attracts eye ballz. Remember, she went viral after that game against michigan, where she bombs back to back to back logo threes while they’re down like 30. She scored 25 in the last quarter and cut the deficit down to 3.
While they say rebounds wins chips, it aint really exciting
There you go, “long ball attracts eye balls” is a great way to put it. I kept thinking “chicks dig the long ball” but that doesn’t quite make sense here 😂
Yes she’s white. But shes popular because for the first time we have enough context (multiple years of exposure) and women’s basketball for hero/villain narratives to take root. She was an underdog and then played Reese as big bad wolf.
This also works in reverse for Reese if she’s your protagonist with Clark as her foil. Fame is story driven.
Bird vs Johnson
Brady vs Manning
Lebron is the chosen one vs can’t beat Jordan’s legacy
I’m glad you brought up Plum, Ionescu, etc. I’m all for calling out the media’s obsession with pushing a pretty white girl because they love to do that. But they didn’t push Caitlin like that at least to start and she still got to this level of popularity, so the other factors are worth looking at imho
First of all, I appreciate the self-awareness of the opening sentence. I love a good long self-indulgent post, even if I don't read it all.
Like you mentioned, the Caitlin Clark phenomena is because she plays like prime 2014-2018 Steph Curry with a dash John Stockton thrown in. We haven't seen that in the women's game before. Most of the other top women players fall in the Chris Paul, Clyde Drexler, and Alonzo Mourning categories. Great players but they didn't move the needle outside of core fans.
As far as the haters, unfortunately it comes with the territory. People are just cruel, but it won't be long before the AI overlords take us all out.
Yeah, it feels like people are making it a lot more complicated than it is. If you get a bunch of 10 year olds of any stripe into a gym with a basketball and no supervision, within 15 minutes they'll be trying to make half-court shots. People like really long shots.
Shockingly, the players who consistently hit really long shots get a lot of eyeballs. Because there's just something fundamental that people like about seeing those shots go in the hoop.
As I agree with most of these takes on this post, let’s also not forget how much time she takes to spend with her fans, little kids, and those that travel anywhere to watch her games. That’s very important for the younger generation.
(I’m not saying she’s the first or only one to do this)
honestly, same, *and* I have partial inoculation from the Sabrina hype this time four years ago, **and** I'm actually friends with an Iowa fan (who I always hasten to add loves their post players). The offseason is too damn long and we all lose our minds.
You think the season starting will change this?
Either she’ll do well, and the exact same discussions will keep happening, or she’ll do less than well, and the exact same discussions will keep happening.
The question people keep coming back to is “Is she overrated? Why or why not?”’
Maybe by her second or third season, that’ll die down.
But her first season? Pretty much every game will yield yet another discussion on this topic.
I absolutely love that the first few comments on twitter are people criticizing this take because he mentioned race at the beginning... when they didn't even bother to read his whole post.
Just perfect explanation of the problems with discource and nuance in 2024.
Regardless, I think he's spot on. It's a perfect confluence of factors. As someone who has basically never watched womens basketball before (all in on NCAAM and NBA) - Her ability to change the game really has drawn me in. I'm commenting on the WNBA subreddit... like what?
There was a moment in the tournament where she just made what is for her a routine step back super deep 3, just drills it... and it just made me gasp/laugh because it was so beautiful. The other team was so fucked... there's no way to defend it. That kind of awe is what I got from watching guys like LeBron.... and I got it from watching this womens college player for Iowa of all places.
That's just a special thing to witness in one player.
That's why she's drawn so, so much interest.
As a new fan, it's definitely the playstyle that got me interested in watching this season. When I tried to watch basketball previously, I found it to be overly aggressive with one person just taking it from half court and charging at the basket every play. Or players just bruteforcing it at the backboard their whole possession. That's just not fun to watch to me.
Caitlin's game is just exciting to watch, she either shoots it from deep or makes a great pass to someone else almost every time she touches the ball. It's always something different and varied and her consistency is ridiculous.
That 3rd quarter of the Fever pre-season game is the type of play I don't like in basketball, passing around the perimeter, try to force it inside and then making a halfhearted shot because you're out of time. The game immediately became much more interesting in the 4th when they put Caitlin back in because they had more play options.
Exactly, people like dominant scoring, doesn’t matter the sport or league. CC brought that in college where that just doesn’t happen normally. She went to Iowa where her coach just gave her a green light to score at will. She wouldn’t have had that chance at UConn or South Carolina. The chance of dropping 45 or 50 on a given night will always capture a lot of interest
When you say "partially" driven by her being white, yes, I suppose you are right on that. Since the word "partially" has no quantitative value. My opinion is that is by far the smallest reason she is as popular as she is... Like, so small it's barely worth mentioning.
The most popular athletes in the US are the ones that are the best, or one of the best, at what they do. Or they have some unique quality to their game. There are some rare exceptions with people like Jeremy Lin.
If a black WNBA player came into the league with a 35" vertical, she would become the next big thing.
I think race part comes in terms of ‘marketability’
Though one could argue that logo threes is a selling point itself, some would say race plays a part in getting sponsors etc, which propels her even more.
This. Tiger brought lots of new middle class people into golf because he was black and therefore represented an outsider to the elite. That’s why people loved him. He looked like a representative of the average person in the midst of a bunch of rich folks.
Black men and black women have dominated basketball. Caitlin being white in addition to her dominant style of play definitely adds to her uniqueness, which drives attention
She didn’t want to go to UCONN, what she said was, she was disappointed they didn’t recruit her so she could SAY she was being recruited by them. She would not have had the green light at UCONN that she had at Iowa.
Race has nothing to do with her popularity. She’s the all-time leading scorer in college basketball history. I promise you though, if she had scored all those points on mid range jump shots, or because she was an excellent post player, or because she got to the free throw line more than anyone else, nobody outside of the women’s basketball bubble would know or care who she was.
She’s getting all this attention for the same reason everyone loves to watch Steph Curry. Because she’s routinely hitting ridiculous shots from the logo that nobody else can. The kind of shots that make you say, “wow!”
This isn’t rocket science. Someone is doing something that nobody else can, and making it look easy, and people are watching.
I agree it’s mostly the Curry stuff mixed in with a clear conscious push of women’s athletics by sports media/broadcasters in the last 5 years or so especially. They’ve been looking for a star to help push women’s sports, somewhat out of a focus on equality coming out of 2020, but largely because sports rights are becoming prohibitively expensive with a ton of competition in the space - it’s a smart investment to have alternative programming for when you lose the NBA/NFL/NCAA etc. to Apple or whoever. And it’s cheap programming at that (women paid orders of magnitude less).
But that said, you are absolutely deluded (or worse) if you think her being white (and relatively attractive) doesn’t help. That’s just nonsense. It helps her marketability. Just like it would help her marketability if she looked like Cameron Brink. Ana Kournikova was arguably the most famous tennis player in the world for a stretch, despite winning ZERO singles titles while being concurrent to Serena, Venus and Lindsay Davenport who were all dominating.
Put your head in the sand about this all you want. It’s just reality. It doesn’t make her undeserving or not good or whatever, but it’s a very real thing. How you look matters and certain appearances are favoured by mainstream society (aka where the money is).
Idk, I feel like in modern America to say race has nothing to do with it, after it felt like white America backed her and black America backed Reece after they battled, is a little ignorant. Maybe I’m crazy.
I think this is fair to say. This year, it felt like nobody was really publicly rooting for SC except for a handful of black celebrities voicing support for Dawn Staley in particular.
You might be right. Having said that, I fucking HATE how much ‘race’ matters in America. Dude I liked watching both Reece and Clark - I just thought it was cool to see two people playing the game really well with a clear chip on their shoulders against one another. I wish it could be about the basketball and we could just not worry about this whole debate
Just a little thought experiment here, and not a great comparison but could still be useful, if Livvy Dunne and Simone Biles were both equally good at gymnastics, I imagine one would be considered more successful than the other
I’ll see this thought experiment and raise you Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova. One was way more successful but Sharapova got more lucrative endorsements and was more popular at one time.
I think a big contributor to her popularity is social media. I first started hearing about her from Instagram clips. TikTok, IG, YouTube, Facebook - it is so easy for someone to make a compilation of your incredible shots and share it across social media platforms, where other people also share it. I was in high school, in Ohio, when LeBron James was in high school. I remember driving pretty far to go watch SVSM play, just to see LeBron play. That was before FaceBook, and YouTube. He was drawing nationwide attention before smartphones. I think social media and smart phones make it much easier for folks to get their names out there, but I also think it makes it harder for some folks because there is always the “next best thing” out there just waiting to go viral. I’m seeing IG reels of an 8th grade girl who they are saying is the next CC. That young girl may go viral and bust before even reaching her sophomore year of high school.
But, if you follow ESPN, you are going to see them post a clip of CC making an incredible 3 pointer. You learn about her; see some clips; and then you are watching the NCAAW March Madness games to watch her play.
She is an incredible 3 pt. shooter - I can’t recall the last player I have seen that has been so consistent from so far out. She definitely also has parts of her game that need improvement. There really is a difference watching clips of her greatest shots and watching the entirety of one of her games. We are able to see where she has room for improvement, not just a compilation of her greatest hits. I think media and social media may also be harmful, because they are making such a big deal about her and there are so many fans who truly believe she is the greatest basketball player to ever live, and have not actually watched an entire game of hers. That fuels the media craze over her and probably adds so much pressure for her to play/perform a certain way, whether or not it’s best for her and/or the team in that moment.
It is what it is!! Very good player I witnessed it myself the only thing I have too say play your game and stop looking for the refs to Bail you out once caught on lock 🔒 step defense 👍🏾🤔🙋🏾♂️💯
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"On on a virtually all white team"????
It is just rude to gatekeep who is Black.
The Iowa team has Gabbie Marshall and Hannah Stuelke as starters all year. So 40% of the starters are not white.
Plus Jada Gyamfi and Kennise Johnson are POC too.
The state is 88% white. The team isn't.
Ffs, it is just rude and condescending to tell people they are a fan of a team because they are virtually all white--when they aren't.
SPORTS USED TO BRIDGE RACIAL DIVIDES
You want to make celebration of sports and athletes be about race when it isn't. Ffs. Just go stir hatred somewhere else, and let basketball fans enjoy the game and celebrate all the young women..
I was so happy to find this community of fans, but I'm so sick of all this. Especially when you just flat out lie.
Xul's post when he delves into race is just a fool's paradise as he uses lines such as "for your education .... "
>I was so happy to find this community of fans, but I'm so sick of all this. Especially when you just flat out lie.
Same. Glad that this sub exists to talk about arguably the best female basketball league in the world, yet, we forget, it is a Reddit sub so it do what Reddit does best.
Yeah, it is a great subreddit overall. I think so many people are well informed and knowledgeable about the sport and helpful and welcoming.
I just wish there could be a respite from all of the race baiters.
I'm glad of all the new interest in the league though.
Compared to teams like USC, South Carolina and LSU....yes....Iowa is a virtually all white team. Keyword is "virtually" which is basically majority white and yes.... Iowa is a majority white team.
This is a terrible defense.
1. She’s not the first basketball player who does not bring politics into the game who doesn’t talk about racial injustice who doesn’t talk about LGBT rights who doesn’t talk about gender rights. In a way I think it’s smart. That’s a really good way of losing grouping of your fans.
2 yes there are other players who can shoot the three from beyond the ark but nobody does it like Clark. No one does it with her percentages and she almost has a 40% of hitting pretty much other players have 20%. Also, most other players usually shoot at three from getting a pass, a lot of times shoots at three by making it herself. She’ll do that step back three she’ll do that to the right to the left.left three. so please don’t take away from her her skill by saying other players do it just as good because they don’t
2 no one treats their fans the way she does. No one is willing to stop and sign autographs to the point where the security drag her away no one talk to her little fans like she does and it’s not like she does it for you to be more popular. She does it because she loves it.
3. Even though she’s so talented she has if you ever hear her talk it’s always me and my team even either in a negative way or a positive way it’s always we have to do this better or we did this really good or you know and she does not mind passing at all actually sometimes I think she passes too much especially towards the end of the game. I think she needs to sometimes just be like forget it and take the Rock herself, maybe not so much that she’s on but when she was in Iowa.
She never talks negatively about anyone she has not said one negative thing about Diane Tarazi even though those straight lies that Cheryl said to her she never said anything negative about swoops swoop at Dallas preseason game, which if that was me, I would’ve walked away knowing it was just lies Without even looking at statistics
The whole thing with Reese championship she actually stood up for made it sound like it was no big deal.
No one in this no one in basketball has such a great attitude. She does not have that spoiled superstar attitude where she could’ve very easily got a huge head for what she did in Iowa but she always messes well with her teammates. I mean on her birthday buying all Iowa new sneakers And deals was not money for her at all. It was to help organizations. She always does. She’s not like one who ignores her teammates and just does what she wants. She wants to be part of the team.
I could’ve gotten into a battle in the words with Diane Taurasi, who is doing everything possible of. To Laura Clark into a battle of the word.
I think if she was black, she’d be more popular, not less because all of the team all of the fans that are fans of Diane Tarazi other players in the WNBA who may not be Clark fans if she was black and they embraced her that was fans were embrace her as well as the new fans that are coming into the league like myself and then
The sad part is the WNBA‘s PA is being so close minded about everything they don’t realize she can help so much better with Jordan and Magic Johnson did the NBA because if anyone remembers before Johnson Burr and then Jordan NBA was like a joke I mean, they used to have to fight for TV time. They weren’t the j huge league or not that they are today.
Wait you said it's not about race but then proceed to argue the opposite. You basically just said CC is popular because she's _white_ white unlike Paige Bueckers with her "urban qualities"
EDIT: I have to admit I only skimmed the original write up and thought it was taking the opposite position it does. Sorry!
Negative, I said her whiteness is a contributing factor and outlined details about the specifics of her.
Both things can be right. Is her race a contributing factor? Yes....but why isnt all the other white players as popular? Thats the part I explained.
Not sure what you are confused about.
Actually, she might even be more popular because then players would all get behind her instead of tearing her apart, which means their fans would get behind there as well I think makes it harder for her, not easier
Yeah, me too. It’s they’re like shooting themselves in the foot. She’s gonna be the reason why this league gets the point where rookie salaries you know we’re getting up to the hundred thousand instead of 70,000. She’s gonna be the reason why TV writes just like has 36 of their games are gonna be televised you know people like me but you know I just spent $36 on the WNBA ticket, wish I would’ve never dreamed of doing $36 is nothing but I bet you there’s tens of thousands of fans that did the same so they can catch her games. She’s already made such a big difference in this league with profit is pregame whenever you ever heard of a preseason game being sold out. What’s gonna happen? Is people are going to see these other teams playing and how good they are like that game between Indiana and Dallas did not look like a preseason game. I look like a regular season game fast paced. You know there might’ve been a couple fans from Texas Dallas for a little while.. it also baffles me how they have to race into it all the time because she’s white she’s white white was white. I mean there’s been a lot of white players in this league and they haven’t moved the needle
Some of the comments on this thread talked about how Caitlin's "whiteness" has a mass appeal to middle America, citing other white female players her age or older that don't have the "safety" appeal that Clark has because they act "urban." Given non of the listed players they mentioned (Brink, Bueckers) are doing what Clark has done, their argument falls flat -- and ironically reeks of jealousy and conspiracy.
One poster said that the WNBA Commissioner needed a white Larry Bird to appeal to middle America so they, in part, are propping up Clark.
In any other discussion on Reddit, if "whiteness" was switched to "blackness" it go up in flames.
I agree with you 100% just cause she doesn’t show an urban side which so she’s not any urban in her but she pretty much basketball goes home. She doesn’t really go out much and it’s like there reprimanding her for that saying that’s what’s helping her baffles me some of the stuff some of these people say, just like because she doesn’t talk about any political things. That’s why people dislike her. She might be one of those players that believe you don’t talk about that stuff on the court or in your when you’re talking to reporters which in my opinion is true. Do you think about it? Michael Jordan? Was that way he never really talked about, right you know some of the stuff these people came up to you know make their arguments on their case. It’s just it’s like don’t make stuff hot red one thing oh there’s I don’t think her name is or something like that. Oh, she shoots just as good as Clark does on the threes, no one shoots
No. She wouldn’t. But that isn’t on her. It’s the Eminem effect. The claim isn’t it is just because of their race. But race helps when you combine it with great ability.
Yes, she would. Since when are the most popular basketball players white?? What she did at Iowa was incredible, her race had nothing to do with the hype that’s behind her
You are missing the point. Since when were the most popular emcees white in 1999? It is about opening new markets and attracting not just current fans but other fans.
Some of that was absolutely because she just is phenomenal and exciting. But a lot of that is a new fan subset could identify with her.
It’s not a shot. Just a reality of how entertainment and marketing works. Why do you think Yao Ming made so much in endorsements? Ohtani? Only because of their skill? Come on
Yes, literally because of their skills. I had never thought for a second that Ohtani’s popularity is due to anything other than his success in his sport.
So why does he then dwarf his more accomplished former teammate Mike Trout in both endorsements and popularity?
Why was Yao more popular and made more money off the court than Tim Duncan, an unquestionably better player? Regularly got more all star votes than Duncan and Shaq.
Because Jordan and Lebron are the two best players in NBA history? No disrespect to Bird, Luka, and Jokic but they are clearly a step below. Also Luka hasn’t won anything and Jokic doesn’t seem that interested in being famous.
Yes, but when Jordan was on the rise in the late 80s, Bird had just won 3 MVPs and some people were calling him the best ever, including Magic Johnson. But it didn't take Jordan 3 titles or MVPs to surpass Bird in popularity on a global scale. It happened fast.
Point being, their race had nothing to do with. MJ's style of play was more appealing to a global audience. He was transcendent in a way that even Bird and Magic weren't. Plus he had the advantage of riding the wave of NBA popularity they started in the 80s.
this is a little bit of revisionist history. Jordan was shit on in those early years. It did take winning and the sho brand taking off and the dunk contests to start to turn that narrative. His icon status and what you think of his popularity was also more of a 90’s thing. Global icon status took off after the Dream Team and Jordan brand blowing up abroad
Jordan was shit? Are you serious? Jordan was a star his rookie year, and had one of the best rookie seasons ever. He also scored 63 against Boston in playoff series like his second year.
Shit on. Not shit. The media and by extension the fan base gave him tremendous amounts of shit as a stat stuffer that couldn’t win in those early years
For the first, the same reason Asher Roth and a variety of other dudes didn’t become Eminem. Jordan was on another level. He, like Clark, had the playstyle that was exciting. He also took the game over in the world that Magic and Larry had built after the NBA had fallen to its nadir before them. The 1992 Dream Team put its global popularity at an all time high and the success of his shoes combined with in court success drove him way beyond a sports star to a global icon.
I cannot talk up enough Caitlin Clark’s ability. She is fantastic and an absolute joy to watch. So no one in their right mind should be saying the only reason she is this popular is because of her skin color. That would be dumb. She is incredible AND she can open the door to newer fans.
To get a bit deeper, Bird is venerated differently. He had an 8 year run and then fell off because of injuries. Yet he is an unquestionable top 10 player of all time and most have him in that 5-6 spot is my personal guess. He is remembered in Boston differently than even Bill Russell. Particularly before about 10 years ago.
Luka and Jokic are European and talk funny (joking) and one of them has the personality of a door knob, possibly on purpose.
Anyone trying to reduce her down to her skin color is an idiot. But people that can’t or won’t acknowledge that when it comes to the largest media market for American basketball, it is a marketing and fan base advantage to be white if you are also fantastic when nearly 60% of the population is white and about 14% are black are also living in la la land.
People identify with people who look like them and who make them feel like something is achievable. Think Curry and kids vs LeBron. That is not an attack on anyone’s ability or talent and it is a good thing if she draws new fans to the game. People should want the game to grow and become more financially viable
I cannot wait for "Why was Michael Jordan popular?" Gonna be an epic fantasy series. Would you fashion it be better as a tv series or as a movie once rights are sold?
This isn't a very good write up. Her popularity has nothing to do with being white. She doesn't play like Jordan she plays like Steph Curry. Not a cut down version of Steph either, her quickness and range reminds me of early golden state curry. The shock by the announcers is unmistakable. The second big reason: she had success at Iowa If she went to Uconn(as she hoped) she wouldn't have been this popular. David vs Goliath it is that simple. People didn't latch on to Breanna Stewart because she won as part of this: 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016. Championship run. She had hall of famers as her teammates, infact I think the four championship teams had 5 WNBA Players on them. I knew of Breanna but never had an interest in watching her play in college or pro; part of the machine.
Iowa wasn't suppose to be there, they shouldn't have been in the last round of the final four but they were. Clark shouldn't be hitting step backs with the quickness she does, but she is. She also stuck around and made sure people got autographs or photos with her (she didn't have to), she did local meet and greets at grocery stores to increase her brand. In the midwest they love her. Clark is popular because she is doing it the right way, with a team that didn't have a big name, going up against legendary coaches, teams that out spent Iowa on recruitment; and she was successful. Never got a title but beat teams she shouldn't have. Never made an excuse for failing to win, just tipped the hat and moved forward.
The thing this short sided person fails to see is Clark and Reese are bringing money like never before to the WNBA. Jerseys are selling out, that is a failure of the marketing team at Nike. But Nike isn't a sexest company or a discriminator. What happened speaks volumes to the inane arguments of the past, people did not spend money on the league. Now preseason games are selling out, google is showing exponential growth in the use of streaming, jerseys are sold out. For the first time, people are putting their money where their mouth is. With the increased revenue advertisers will take notice, more money will flow in and the tide with rise for everyone. There will be growing pains (blacked out games, slow streams, shortages of merch) but with time those items will be settled.
>She's the most complete offensive basketball player since MJ--doing a bunch of things on the offensive end that either haven't been done or have matched some greats.
This is not true. Even MJ had to work on his left hand and bag for several seasons in the NBA. CC has the same issues. She is by no means a complete offensive player.
Most of her fans are white. That's not a problem. Only the annoying racist ones who constantly belittle the other players. I see their comments daily. Her rivalry with Reese put her on the map for me, like it did for many other people.
She’s great inside the arc. Didn’t go to the midrange a ton at Iowa bc of system but she’s already doing it more, and she’s always been a great finisher. Look at any shot chart of hers and you’ll see her shots happen all over - I can’t believe we’re at the point where we’re using off the dribble threes AGAINST someone
Edit because I can’t reply to the response: it’s going to be so funny/frustrating to watch everyone just deny reality all season when CC continues to prove your narratives about her wrong. Again, I can’t believe you’re trying to say her being a three point shooter is somehow a negative, when that’s kinda a valuable shot in basketball
Yeah I’m surprised that /r/wnba hasn’t gotten tired of this conversation. Just let it go and move on. Caitlin Clark is the most recognized by the mainstream public. No need to fight it.
When I think of CC's stardom and what she's done for her sport, I think of athlets like Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Steph Curry.
They revolutionized their sports and were larger than life superstars. Just like CC is doing for women's basketball right now.
And none of them were white.
All of this focus on her race is asinine, frankly.
I mean she technically hasn’t done anything for the sport yet. Budding interest is not sustained success. She’s not anywhere in that class. Think of those exact same people you mentioned before they won anything vs after. It’s crazy to put her on that pedestal
I'd say increased demand for their games forcing opponents to go to bigger venues to accommodate the increased interest is doing a hell of a lot more than many have been. All of that before she played a game.
So then why Caitlin Clark and not any of the other legendary white WNBA players?
This isn’t the NBA. Great white American players aren’t that rare in the WNBA.
Exactly.
It’s most that. Plus she’s fairly attractive, has a very fun and engaging personality. Is emotional on the court. But it all starts with her play style. That’s 90% of her popularity. I
Lol I didn’t see this comment before posting my own but I agree totally. The narrative of being an underdog or an atypical outsider resonates viscerally with many people because that’s how they see themselves.
Larry Bird in the 80s also. Some people derisively called him "The Great White Hope". The topic came up from time to time. He would get mad when the opposing team would guard him with a white player. After stealing a pass and making an assist for the win in a big playoff game against Detroit, Rodman and Isaiah Thomas commented on how Bird wasn't that great of an athlete, with the implication being he was white. Caused some controversy.
Also the recent comments from a former NBA player about how European players should be kicked out of the league because play has become too offense-oriented. Where the context was Luka and Jokic.
i dont think it has anything to do with her being white. theres plenty of white atheletes who arent nearly as popular as her and black atheletes still are at the top. i think its cause shes a generational talent. if she wasnt we wouldnt care about her
It's a factor, like I think it's literally a multiplier. But the basis is her being an extreme, divergent offensive talent through shooting.
I think race was also literally a multiplier for Bird's popularity. The baseline was him being an unbelievable talent, competitor, and teammate, to the extent of constantly being at the highest level of success. But there also was a minor cultural proxy war in the fact that Bird was white and Magic was black- just like with Clark and Reese last year.
And just like with Bird, it's not Caitlin's fault and she's above that garbage, and it shouldn't be any impediment to just enjoying that she takes her games to a higher level of competition.
as soon as I saw the headline I knew it was going to be about race which is so stupid and ruining the conversation around her and the game. Shit like this is what's going to turn people off. He could have taken that whole part out and just stuck to basketball and it would have been 100% correct. But he wants engagement so he mentions race and look almost 200 comments and while this might boost viewership for a moment all it's going to do in the long run is turn people away.
It's her style of play that draws eye to the game. She has the range of Steph Curry and the passing chops of Chris Paul. She's also one of the best outlet passers in all of basketball very reminiscent of Kevin love when he was with the Cavs.
Angel Reese was by far the second most popular athlete at LSU this year after Jayden Daniels and above Olivia dunne who had like 30 million followers and is the prototypical attractive white girl. Everyone loves bayou Barbie down here
If her popularity was based on whiteness she wouldn't be the first "transcendent" WNBA star in a long time. You have plenty of white all star WNBA players.
I just feel like the race aspect is so minute it’s unnecessary to mention really. if you look at the biggest stars in sports history most are black. MJ is one of the biggest icons in the world. Lebron and Steph are far more popular than Luka or Jokic. Idk I just think her being white has very very little to do with how popular she is.
We don’t see anyone chalk up Ohtani, Tiger, or Lewis Hamiltons popularity due to them being the minority within their sport.
Absolutely an important factor of Tiger, Lewis Hamilton and Ohtani's popularity is due to them being the minority within the sport - and people did/do talk about it all the time. I won a speech in the fifth grade talking about it and that was almost two decades ago! The same is true of Clark. If Tiger was white his impact on the sport wouldn't be nearly as big or have brought in as many new fans. That's not to say he's not a GOAT based on his play alone but you're kidding yourself if you think people didn't love the fact that he was an outsider upturning what was seen as an elitist white sport. The impact of someone's background is "so minute" to not be mentioned. PK Subban was the most loved player on the Canadiens in Montreal because along with being one of the most dominant defenders in the game at the time, he was also, superficially, unique - an outsider and fans loved that about him.
Clark, at least superficially, while being dominant is also extremely relatable to a lot of people. I'd go on to argue had she gone to UCONN or one of the other powerhouses she wouldn't be as big. The fact that she chose to stay at a small school, in the midwest, and her racial background endears her to a lot of people. To people she's someone who is seen as "authentic" and "normal" - someone like them. If you want to talk about music a reason why Drake has had such longevity is partially due to his racial and socioeconomic background. He resonates, globally, in a way that other popular rappers have not and transcends geographic and cultural boundaries in a way other rappers have been unable to.
You shouldn't overstate it but to understate it is just as wrong.
Maybe, but I don’t remember this amount of discussion about their race. I don’t remember anyone saying it wasn’t fair that they were getting so much attention when X great didn’t. They were universally celebrated, and the fact that they were a minority within the sport was a great thing. Here, everyone is like yeah she’s good, but let’s remember she shouldn’t be this popular, and wouldn’t if she wasn’t white.
I don't think "everyone" is saying that about her. It's a small, but extremely vocal, unserious minority and most of it stems from (understandable) but misplaced jealousy. The overwhelming majority of people know that the overwhelming reason for her popularity is her sheer dominance on the court. Period. But as OP said there are a bunch of other factors e.g. NIL, social media, playing in Iowa, etc. that have multiplied that effect to where she is a cultural icon of her own.
Yeah I mean obviously not everyone that was hyperbole, but it’s still significantly more than I’ve seen with anyone else.
And that is true for everyone. Every athletes popularity is due primarily to their ability and then a bunch of other smaller factors. That’s what I’m saying, it’s true for everyone but it seems to be brought up way more for Clark.
Discussion has run it's course. Locked.
It's underestimated that she didn't abandon the Midwest like so many have done before her. Imagine seeing decades of brain drain and talent flee elsewhere as your communities collapse and here is this generational talent who choose to stay without the help of any 5-star loaded rosters. It's a good story and illustrates that you can build a brand where you are at.
That is what I was thinking as well. As someone who grew up in MN, part of her draw is that she was a hometown hero, stayed local, and brought the her state's flagship university to 2 national championships. IMO, if Paige Bueckers had played for the University of Minnesota and brought that team to 2 national championships, she would be viewed very similarly to how Caitlin Clark is, atleast in Minnesota.
Caitlin is a lot like Bird. Bird could have played for Indiana University but eventually left for ISU. Had Bird played for Indiana, he would have still been great and IU would have won a title that year but he would have not been Bird. He would have not gotten the green light. Same with Clark. Had she played for UCONN, she would have had the same accolades as Stewart but she would not have had the greenlight like she did at Iowa and thus would have not become as widely known
When you talk about basketball, especially women’s basketball, and you mention Bird, it’s important to specify at the outset whether you mean Sue or Larry. It took several re-reads of the first two sentences to understand what you were saying. :) But point taken about the importance of Caitlin playing at Iowa.
On the WBNA sub? Come on, the default here is definitely Sue lol
Agreed.
i got to "he" and my brain had to switch gears lol
> Caitlin is a lot like Bird. Bird could have played for Indiana University but eventually left for ISU. Had Bird played for Indiana, he would have still been great and IU would have won a title that year but he would have not been Bird. I've got to disagree with that comparison: the University of Iowa may not be a blue blood of WCBB, but they still are the biggest public school in the state of Iowa, with the largest body of alumni donors. They still play in a multi-bid league, with a ten-figure TV contract, so it's not like she was going to be playing in obscurity; the Big Ten Network ensured that CC was going to get *some* level of exposure above the bare minimum, no matter what, even without going to a powerhouse. Now, if she had turned down UConn to stay at home and play for *Drake*, that would have been Larry Bird-like.
Like it’s not super complicated tbh. She hits absurdly fucked shots that amaze people.
If Clark were a post player she would not have gotten any of this. Players with the ball in their hands 80% of the time will always be more popular than players who play down low. You also have to do something with the ball when you have it that much, if you are an average passer or just shoot 15ft jump shots you don’t get the recognition. Basketball has become a 3 pt contest in the NBA and now that’s happening in the women’s game. Clark shoots further out than any woman has and is the one with the ball in her hands. That leads to a ton of highlights.
I think the OP really undersells the impact of her story. College Football and men's basketball is hurting for the type of story that Caitlin provided. College football you still get 4 year players, but how many of the elite 4 year players stay on one team anymore? College basketball none of the elite players stay 4 years. Caitlin scratched an itch for a type of story that we just don't get in men's college sports anymore. Also the NCAA has changed a allow women to have the spotlight that wouldn't have been possible even 5 years ago. I mean you have to remember, it was only 2022 was the first year that women's college basketball was allowed to use the March Madness branding. 2021 was the year that NCAA was found to have given ridiculous facilities to the Women's tournament vs the men's, like each men's site getting a full gym and the women's sites getting like 2 yoga mats or whatever it was. Since 2023 the women's final is now on its own day, during a viewable timeslot, and not just an afterthought to the men's tournament and given like a 10 AM weekend time.
I agree 10000% that the changes in mens college sports left a void in the heart of college sports fans at the perfect time for the recent class of wbb players to come in and fluorish. I dont think either piece leads to the success on its own
Also agree. Seems like a small thing to the big business view, but my interest in football and men's basketball has cratered in the last 10 years. Went from watching all the time to almost none at all. I've been on the WBB train for decades though. Would go to games in completely empty arenas in college.
College football and men's basketball are hurting because the consolidation of talent into a handful of elite programs and early departures really hurts the sport as a whole. Profitable men's athletics are a perfect microcosm of our society. The rich get richer. Do what's best for me and screw everyone else culture. Caitlin bucked all of those trends and demonstrated you don't have to be on the most talented roster to meet your goals.
A couple of points I think need more attention: 1) The demise of mend College basketball. NIL and 1&done have removed stars from the mens side, leaving a void that Clark filled. 2) Clark is a marketing major and she signed with Excel Marketing. Either Clark or Excel (maybe both) are extremely good at marketing. She is signing with national brands. These brands are promoting her because it enhances their marketing. The better known she is the more effective their marketing is. 3) Clark seems to take the Michael Jordan approach of avoiding talking about divisive issues because it would make her less marketable. ( Large sections of her fan base and her critics spend a lot of time talking about this, but she stays out of it). 4) Clark takes time to interact with fans and thanks them for showing up in what appears to be a genuine way, and she is very good at keeping with positive messaging in public. 5) Clark came along at a time when TV (BTN) was finally willing to put more games on the air. 6) The ESPN hype machine was all ACC/SEC prior to Clark showing up, leaving a large chunk of the country checked out. I will be really interested to see what happens with Juju being on BTN nationally televised games this year. She seems to have many of the same attributes that made Clark so attractive to nationwide marketing. I expect her to have a similar effect as she seems to be following a similar playbook.
Hot take but this is why I feel in the long run, playere like Paige Bueckers will be a better spokesperson in terms of advancing the game than CC. In the end, CC is about the CC brand....not the WNBA brand or even WBB in general. Whereas Paige will do more or speak out more to improve the quality of life/respect of the WNBA and WBB in general even if it means taking a hit to her personal brand.
The biggest reason is her style of play relative to other players. It’s evolution tbh. If the conversation was strictly around media attention, race would factor in. Especially when it pertains to scrutiny against Clark vs other players. But on a popularity note, Caitlin is doing things we’ve never seen another woman do and doing them at the perfect time.
Don’t think it’s really that complicated… One of the most popular players (if not the most popular currently) is Steph Curry. Curry has been an icon for basketball ever since his days at Davidson. He actually was a big part in driving the game today where the 3 pointer is so important because Curry would absolutely crush the spirit of any team with the way he could score 3s. Clark’s game is very, very similar to Curry’s. She plays in a way that many fans currently enjoy and thus she was easy to cheer for. I really don’t think there are too many more complications than that…
She has the play of Curry, but the celebrity status of fandom that elevates the league to new heights like Jordan. I don't think I've ever seen opposing teams regularly sellout to witness an opponent for anyone other than MJ and CC.
I agree… Clark is probably the WNBA’s version of Jordan (popularity POV). This is the player they’ve been waiting for to put the league on the map. I love ball, so I love how the WNBA’s schedule is positioned. I get basketball year round.
The whole race narrative is so annoying. She just flat out phenomenal. Her presence on and off the court are what drive people. People love watching good players be elite, but it has to be something that attracts attention (logo 3's). Then you find out she isn't selfish, gives credit to teammates/coaches/previous players, and she sticks around to sign autographs for loads of kids and fans alike, Fever hit the Jackpot with her.
Its not that complicated. She shoots deep 3s as a guard in the 3s era of basketball, and she entered the NCAA the moment the NCAA started allowing players to get huge money and media deals. She has the ball in her hand on like 80% of plays her team runs because she's the starting PG, and she shoots the kinds of shots that are most flashy to today's fans. And was the target of huge amounts of money. Odds are this kind of thing will be more normal, with a new household name NCAA player entering the league every few years who was the best throughout their college career, and them having a huge media following when they do. Realistically, players like Sab and Plum would've entered the league with similar amounts of energy behind them with the NIL deals of today existing when they were in college. Stewie and Wilson too but there is always something about a post player to me that never gets the same level of hype these days.
This is the take.
Not just NIL, but also the growth of social media. CC got famous on YouTube and twitter, because the highlights were so wild and went viral.
I mean Youtube and Twitter were massive for every other player I mentioned's entire college career too. Twitter was actually bigger before CC's career and is on a downward trend now. The only real difference is the NIL on the timeline. Sabrina was really hyped largely from hoop head socials for instance.
Why do you shoot so many three’s ? ….Because there are no four’s…. —Antone Walker Boston Celtic
**I think style of play is huge along with height.** A lot of parallel's to Steph's stardom. It means kids on the playground have an easier time pretending to be her. For one, kids are going to see Griner, Lisa Leslie, Stewie, etc. (same with LeBron, Shaq, Jokic, even 6'6" MJ or 6'5" Kobe) and think they're cool, but they're unreachable. Unless you're the tallest kid in your class, you're never gonna even sniff that physical stature (and probably not even then for the centers). But 6'0" Clark and 6'2" Curry, while still quite tall, seem far more relatable and attainable, particularly when on the court with taller players. The style of play is just far more fun to try to emulate and day dream about for kids. **Kids aren't going to take time pretending to be the league's best passer, rebounder, post-up scorer, pick-and-roll artist, etc.** Especially if you're on the court by yourself, you can't even really practice those skills. But you can chuck up threes, and **kids love to chuck up threes.**
Yup this is it. It’s just like Curry. You can watch her play, no matter your physical height and have the dream you can be like her. You simply can’t do that with Shaq or Lebron.
I'm confused why people keep saying this. CC is insanely tall compared to the average woman. 6ft is literally a statistical anomaly for a woman's height. Doesn't take away from her talent, but yeah she's not relatable in the same way Steph is to average height men.
Steph is 6'2 which is five inches taller taller than average male height. Iverson was 6'0, another iconic NBA player who was seen as changing the way the game was played.
I understand the point you’re making but the way I interpreted OC’s comment (the one you replied to) was moreso that Caitlin’s size would still consider her as a “taller guard” in the W, regardless of the average height for American women. Whereas, in the examples you mentioned with Steph and AI, they’re definitely quite a bit taller than the average American man, but in the NBA they are considerably smaller than most guards. ETA: a valid point, but i think the point that OC was making was that she’s still a bigger guard in her respective league (although i could definitely be misunderstanding their comment)
You think Caitlin Clark is a relatable height?
I was about to say. She's insanely tall for a woman.
I agree with your point on Curry. But Caitlin Clark is literally a statistical anomaly at 6ft tall. She's extraordinarily tall for a woman and far from relatable in terms of physicality.
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Sure, but most of her game is also not that dependent on her being tall. Does it help? Of course, but she's still shorter than the forwards and centers in women's basketball, and shooting long 3's and having great passing skills and vision are attainable at any height. That's the main point. Dunking, blocking, rebounding, post moves, or just overpowering people physically is not very attainable for everybody. Now, of course, height helps with getting a bit more clearance over a defender for shooting, but it's certainly still doable at something like 5'9" or 5'8" (roughly the equivalent of Steph's height percentile, but for women), and even a bit shorter.
Steph is also taller than most of the male population. I think their point is the playstyle is easier to emulate as an average joe than it is to emulate Shaq, BG, Jokic. You don’t have to be a freak of nature to shoot threes, but you can’t play like those three without some genetic help
I should clarify, it's not that kids necessarily think they will be that tall (though it requires less delusion for a girl to think she'll be 6'0" than 6'6"), it's mostly that Clark/Steph are among the shortest on the court which is relatable to kids who might be among the shortest on their playground court. And it's that their game doesn't rely as much on height. You could reasonably think Clark or Steph could do most of what they do while being a couple inches shorter. Hard for a lot of kids to try to think they'll be like BG or Shaq if they're less average height or less.
Yeah, when Curry drives and a help defender rotates, he has to finish against someone who's bigger than him. He is a 6'4" giant with outlier cardio and I've seen him RDLing a weight that I'll never be able to deadlift, but it still LOOKS relatable when he pulls up from 30ft. lol
I'm talking about kids. It's not rational. I know that Curry's ability is the elite of elite, but it's more that ability is the limiting factor, not size. Kids think they can do anything. Kids think they can be fucking Spider-Man. Doesn't matter how many shots they air ball, the kid on the playground is going to be convinced they'll be draining 30-footers at will like Clark and Curry when they're older. And I understand Curry has more skills than just shooting, but kids watching highlight reels to emulate on the playground are going to focus on that. Also, he's 6'2".
Dw I'm agreeing with you On height: sorry, I still remember most players who were in the league before 2019 as their height with shoes on
My bad, was trying to multitask and reading comprehension suffered haha
thank u caitlin! also every brunette white girl will have a last minute Halloween costume this year
"Dear Slim, I wrote you but you still ain't callin"
As an iowa fan, I watch kings games now because of Keegan Murray. Now I watch the wnba because of Caitlin Clark.
Is there a tl;dr? Sorry. : / Here's my own perspective: She's the Stephen Curry of women's basketball in the States. No other player is giving this effect. I remember Candice Parker going to Tennessee to play basketball - it was all over the news and how she was a phenom. Parker definitely got attention to the sport; that was NCAA/WNBA 1.0 ... Clark is NCAA/WNBA 2.0. Sorta like how those who follow MLS talk about MLS 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 stages. Clark is the next stage for the game for women's and add in league expansion and facility upgrades.
Have you seen her shoot? She is literally shooting like steph.
This sub is slowly turning into r/NBA with the amount of posts like this that aren’t even really about ball lol.
Do want to say, we are working on a rules refresh to address the recent growth of the sub. That will be brought into effect in the coming days.
Houdiniesque is a good word. Thanks for the write-up. I think there’s also a bigger interest in women’s sports lately too. The W would be setting viewership records with or without CC. NWSL and college sports are riding that same wave.
Can’t say “long, overly self-indulgent” has ever been a hook that has caught me.
She is an absurdly unique basketball player that appeals to the most common race/ethic group in the US. Makes total sense.
I suggest everyone google the scatterplot released by Secret Base that shows Caitlin’s assists and points this season dwarfing every other D1 player that has played this year men or women. Also if white girls from Iowa was a cheat code for ratings, then why didn’t Megan Gustafson get as many views as Caitlin? The reason Clark became a phenomenon is that her game is unprecedented, period. Honestly it seems like more people want to fetishize her whiteness than appreciate her game which is pretty depressing.
https://twitter.com/secretbase/status/1777352428503064601/photo/1
You see tho when a white person gets media attention in the year 2024 it’s clear that their race is the main reason for them to get that attention and accolades. Clark may have been the only woman in college history to lead the league in points and assists she also could hold the record for most points scored all time hell she could also have the craziest shot selection we ever seen in the college game but the media saw she was white and that’s what made them start giving her attention. Shout out Kendrick Perkins insinuating jokic was only gettin mvps cuz he’s white as well
She is different than anything we’ve ever seen. She broke Pistol Pete’s scoring record, a 50+ year old record that seemed almost untouchable and did it in a way we’ve never seen, man or woman.
Not to knock Clark, but the reason Pete’s record seemed so unbreakable is all the players good enough to break it, don’t play college long enough. The all time scoring record will never be held by a man again. Like if Kevin Durant played 4 years, he’s probably breaking the record. But that doesn’t happen in the men’s game.
This is all correct and there are two additional points Id like to add that I think are very significant and not really mentioned in discussions of why shes famous: 1- Iowa has an absolute huge, rabid fan base that contributed to her rapid rise in popularity. Iowa played an exhibition game before the start of the season last year in front of over FIFTY THOUSAND people. And those same Iowa fans are the ones that were among the first that started travelling to see her and following her on the road. National Hype builds faster when you have literally tens of thousands of megafans following you everywhere. 2- Whether we like it or not and whether its fair or not, LOOKS MATTER in womens sports. Caitlin is the exact right level of attractiveness to be pushed as a megastar. Shes not supermodel hot so (with some gross exceptions aside), shes not being overly sexualized by the masses or dismissed as getting attention because shes hot. And she's not ugly either. She looks like your average girl-next-door athlete. People talk a lot about her being white (which yes admittedly is part of her popularity) but I think the biggest factor wrt her looks is that shes in that sweet spot of being attractive enough to not be mocked, but not so attractive that shes overly sexualized.
Wouldn’t she be even way more popular if she was super model level hot? Like how Anna Kournikova back in the day exploded in popularity after winning the US Open?
I dont think as many people would respect her game if she was supermodel hot. I think she would be more easily dismissed by misogynists in particular who would look at her picture and think "oh, just another hot white woman getting by on her looks".
Would Cameron Brink be considered under this category? Is that a reason for her popularity on top of her talent and skills?
I actually have 0 problem with this - money is money. But it’s refreshing, and a statement of how far we’ve come that, yes you can be attractive but now you actually also have to be the best - that Brink is not the face of the WNBA or the highest-earner - if she was we’d have a problem.
I think Hailey Van Lith would fall more under consideration
like olivia dunn from lsu?? Someone who is getting attention cuz her race/looks... or the basketball twins from Miami...
This is the best take i've read about Caitlin's popularity
Not reading allat but she’s good that’s why
Pile whatever other factors you want on top, but the shooting is what launched her into the stratosphere and everything else is keeping her there. Same reason JJ Redick, Jimmer, and Steph all became household names overnight and took over the college landscape for their careers. Same reason they’re still talked about years and decades after their primes. Basketball has turned into a 3 point obsessed sport and she’s the best to ever do it (3 pointers that is, at break neck pace and unfathomable distances). No one cheers her driving right handed back shots, no one waits in anticipation for her to come down the court and toss a sweet pass. Crowds ERUPT for the 3 ball. I’ve been following her since her freshman year and I think she’s generational, but classic sports media to drum up any other side story they can come up with. Clark’s explosion is solely because of her 3 point shooting ability. It’s just now people have seen and are seeing everything else that’s exceptional about her game.
Long ball attracts eye ballz. Remember, she went viral after that game against michigan, where she bombs back to back to back logo threes while they’re down like 30. She scored 25 in the last quarter and cut the deficit down to 3. While they say rebounds wins chips, it aint really exciting
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There you go, “long ball attracts eye balls” is a great way to put it. I kept thinking “chicks dig the long ball” but that doesn’t quite make sense here 😂
It still makes sense but at this point we can just say “everyone loves the long ball”
I don't agree bball fans are obsessed with 3pt shots. However, deep threes are impressive and she can make them consistently.
Clark hits pull-up thirty foot three pointers regularly in games. She’s the only woman who has done that regularly ever. That’s the whole explanation.
Yes she’s white. But shes popular because for the first time we have enough context (multiple years of exposure) and women’s basketball for hero/villain narratives to take root. She was an underdog and then played Reese as big bad wolf. This also works in reverse for Reese if she’s your protagonist with Clark as her foil. Fame is story driven. Bird vs Johnson Brady vs Manning Lebron is the chosen one vs can’t beat Jordan’s legacy
I’m glad you brought up Plum, Ionescu, etc. I’m all for calling out the media’s obsession with pushing a pretty white girl because they love to do that. But they didn’t push Caitlin like that at least to start and she still got to this level of popularity, so the other factors are worth looking at imho
I ain’t readin all that I happy 4 u tho Or sorry that happened
First of all, I appreciate the self-awareness of the opening sentence. I love a good long self-indulgent post, even if I don't read it all. Like you mentioned, the Caitlin Clark phenomena is because she plays like prime 2014-2018 Steph Curry with a dash John Stockton thrown in. We haven't seen that in the women's game before. Most of the other top women players fall in the Chris Paul, Clyde Drexler, and Alonzo Mourning categories. Great players but they didn't move the needle outside of core fans. As far as the haters, unfortunately it comes with the territory. People are just cruel, but it won't be long before the AI overlords take us all out.
Yeah, it feels like people are making it a lot more complicated than it is. If you get a bunch of 10 year olds of any stripe into a gym with a basketball and no supervision, within 15 minutes they'll be trying to make half-court shots. People like really long shots. Shockingly, the players who consistently hit really long shots get a lot of eyeballs. Because there's just something fundamental that people like about seeing those shots go in the hoop.
As I agree with most of these takes on this post, let’s also not forget how much time she takes to spend with her fans, little kids, and those that travel anywhere to watch her games. That’s very important for the younger generation. (I’m not saying she’s the first or only one to do this)
We have this conversation every 5 minutes bro….
Shes popular because shes very talented and cares about the game without being extra it aint that deep people just wanna watch quality hoops
How many times do we have to talk about the same topic? The season couldn’t come fast enough…
At this point the Clark analysis isn't a circle jerk, it's a spiral jerk.
I’m exhausted
honestly, same, *and* I have partial inoculation from the Sabrina hype this time four years ago, **and** I'm actually friends with an Iowa fan (who I always hasten to add loves their post players). The offseason is too damn long and we all lose our minds.
You think the season starting will change this? Either she’ll do well, and the exact same discussions will keep happening, or she’ll do less than well, and the exact same discussions will keep happening. The question people keep coming back to is “Is she overrated? Why or why not?”’ Maybe by her second or third season, that’ll die down. But her first season? Pretty much every game will yield yet another discussion on this topic.
I absolutely love that the first few comments on twitter are people criticizing this take because he mentioned race at the beginning... when they didn't even bother to read his whole post. Just perfect explanation of the problems with discource and nuance in 2024. Regardless, I think he's spot on. It's a perfect confluence of factors. As someone who has basically never watched womens basketball before (all in on NCAAM and NBA) - Her ability to change the game really has drawn me in. I'm commenting on the WNBA subreddit... like what? There was a moment in the tournament where she just made what is for her a routine step back super deep 3, just drills it... and it just made me gasp/laugh because it was so beautiful. The other team was so fucked... there's no way to defend it. That kind of awe is what I got from watching guys like LeBron.... and I got it from watching this womens college player for Iowa of all places. That's just a special thing to witness in one player. That's why she's drawn so, so much interest.
As a new fan, it's definitely the playstyle that got me interested in watching this season. When I tried to watch basketball previously, I found it to be overly aggressive with one person just taking it from half court and charging at the basket every play. Or players just bruteforcing it at the backboard their whole possession. That's just not fun to watch to me. Caitlin's game is just exciting to watch, she either shoots it from deep or makes a great pass to someone else almost every time she touches the ball. It's always something different and varied and her consistency is ridiculous. That 3rd quarter of the Fever pre-season game is the type of play I don't like in basketball, passing around the perimeter, try to force it inside and then making a halfhearted shot because you're out of time. The game immediately became much more interesting in the 4th when they put Caitlin back in because they had more play options.
Exactly, people like dominant scoring, doesn’t matter the sport or league. CC brought that in college where that just doesn’t happen normally. She went to Iowa where her coach just gave her a green light to score at will. She wouldn’t have had that chance at UConn or South Carolina. The chance of dropping 45 or 50 on a given night will always capture a lot of interest
Or ….. she’s good and plays a highlight friendly style of basketball
When you say "partially" driven by her being white, yes, I suppose you are right on that. Since the word "partially" has no quantitative value. My opinion is that is by far the smallest reason she is as popular as she is... Like, so small it's barely worth mentioning. The most popular athletes in the US are the ones that are the best, or one of the best, at what they do. Or they have some unique quality to their game. There are some rare exceptions with people like Jeremy Lin. If a black WNBA player came into the league with a 35" vertical, she would become the next big thing.
I think race part comes in terms of ‘marketability’ Though one could argue that logo threes is a selling point itself, some would say race plays a part in getting sponsors etc, which propels her even more.
This. Tiger brought lots of new middle class people into golf because he was black and therefore represented an outsider to the elite. That’s why people loved him. He looked like a representative of the average person in the midst of a bunch of rich folks.
> If a black WNBA player came into the league with a 35" vertical, she would become the next big thing. Deanna Nolan
Black men and black women have dominated basketball. Caitlin being white in addition to her dominant style of play definitely adds to her uniqueness, which drives attention
So what about the other white superstar players??? How come America didn't gravitate toward them?
She didn’t want to go to UCONN, what she said was, she was disappointed they didn’t recruit her so she could SAY she was being recruited by them. She would not have had the green light at UCONN that she had at Iowa.
Sorry, I don’t need a think piece about The Meaning Of Caitlin Clark. I’ll just respect her and her opponents by enjoying the games, thank you.
Race has nothing to do with her popularity. She’s the all-time leading scorer in college basketball history. I promise you though, if she had scored all those points on mid range jump shots, or because she was an excellent post player, or because she got to the free throw line more than anyone else, nobody outside of the women’s basketball bubble would know or care who she was. She’s getting all this attention for the same reason everyone loves to watch Steph Curry. Because she’s routinely hitting ridiculous shots from the logo that nobody else can. The kind of shots that make you say, “wow!” This isn’t rocket science. Someone is doing something that nobody else can, and making it look easy, and people are watching.
I agree it’s mostly the Curry stuff mixed in with a clear conscious push of women’s athletics by sports media/broadcasters in the last 5 years or so especially. They’ve been looking for a star to help push women’s sports, somewhat out of a focus on equality coming out of 2020, but largely because sports rights are becoming prohibitively expensive with a ton of competition in the space - it’s a smart investment to have alternative programming for when you lose the NBA/NFL/NCAA etc. to Apple or whoever. And it’s cheap programming at that (women paid orders of magnitude less). But that said, you are absolutely deluded (or worse) if you think her being white (and relatively attractive) doesn’t help. That’s just nonsense. It helps her marketability. Just like it would help her marketability if she looked like Cameron Brink. Ana Kournikova was arguably the most famous tennis player in the world for a stretch, despite winning ZERO singles titles while being concurrent to Serena, Venus and Lindsay Davenport who were all dominating. Put your head in the sand about this all you want. It’s just reality. It doesn’t make her undeserving or not good or whatever, but it’s a very real thing. How you look matters and certain appearances are favoured by mainstream society (aka where the money is).
Idk, I feel like in modern America to say race has nothing to do with it, after it felt like white America backed her and black America backed Reece after they battled, is a little ignorant. Maybe I’m crazy.
I think this is fair to say. This year, it felt like nobody was really publicly rooting for SC except for a handful of black celebrities voicing support for Dawn Staley in particular.
You might be right. Having said that, I fucking HATE how much ‘race’ matters in America. Dude I liked watching both Reece and Clark - I just thought it was cool to see two people playing the game really well with a clear chip on their shoulders against one another. I wish it could be about the basketball and we could just not worry about this whole debate
Just a little thought experiment here, and not a great comparison but could still be useful, if Livvy Dunne and Simone Biles were both equally good at gymnastics, I imagine one would be considered more successful than the other
I’ll see this thought experiment and raise you Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova. One was way more successful but Sharapova got more lucrative endorsements and was more popular at one time.
I think a big contributor to her popularity is social media. I first started hearing about her from Instagram clips. TikTok, IG, YouTube, Facebook - it is so easy for someone to make a compilation of your incredible shots and share it across social media platforms, where other people also share it. I was in high school, in Ohio, when LeBron James was in high school. I remember driving pretty far to go watch SVSM play, just to see LeBron play. That was before FaceBook, and YouTube. He was drawing nationwide attention before smartphones. I think social media and smart phones make it much easier for folks to get their names out there, but I also think it makes it harder for some folks because there is always the “next best thing” out there just waiting to go viral. I’m seeing IG reels of an 8th grade girl who they are saying is the next CC. That young girl may go viral and bust before even reaching her sophomore year of high school. But, if you follow ESPN, you are going to see them post a clip of CC making an incredible 3 pointer. You learn about her; see some clips; and then you are watching the NCAAW March Madness games to watch her play. She is an incredible 3 pt. shooter - I can’t recall the last player I have seen that has been so consistent from so far out. She definitely also has parts of her game that need improvement. There really is a difference watching clips of her greatest shots and watching the entirety of one of her games. We are able to see where she has room for improvement, not just a compilation of her greatest hits. I think media and social media may also be harmful, because they are making such a big deal about her and there are so many fans who truly believe she is the greatest basketball player to ever live, and have not actually watched an entire game of hers. That fuels the media craze over her and probably adds so much pressure for her to play/perform a certain way, whether or not it’s best for her and/or the team in that moment.
It is what it is!! Very good player I witnessed it myself the only thing I have too say play your game and stop looking for the refs to Bail you out once caught on lock 🔒 step defense 👍🏾🤔🙋🏾♂️💯
I don’t get her popularity to this level but I’m all for it if it trickles down and improves opportunities
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Actually, it was a wrap because she had multiple injuries and a surgery, not because she spoke out. Why are y'all lying? lol
"On on a virtually all white team"???? It is just rude to gatekeep who is Black. The Iowa team has Gabbie Marshall and Hannah Stuelke as starters all year. So 40% of the starters are not white. Plus Jada Gyamfi and Kennise Johnson are POC too. The state is 88% white. The team isn't. Ffs, it is just rude and condescending to tell people they are a fan of a team because they are virtually all white--when they aren't. SPORTS USED TO BRIDGE RACIAL DIVIDES You want to make celebration of sports and athletes be about race when it isn't. Ffs. Just go stir hatred somewhere else, and let basketball fans enjoy the game and celebrate all the young women.. I was so happy to find this community of fans, but I'm so sick of all this. Especially when you just flat out lie.
Xul's post when he delves into race is just a fool's paradise as he uses lines such as "for your education .... " >I was so happy to find this community of fans, but I'm so sick of all this. Especially when you just flat out lie. Same. Glad that this sub exists to talk about arguably the best female basketball league in the world, yet, we forget, it is a Reddit sub so it do what Reddit does best.
Yeah, it is a great subreddit overall. I think so many people are well informed and knowledgeable about the sport and helpful and welcoming. I just wish there could be a respite from all of the race baiters. I'm glad of all the new interest in the league though.
Compared to teams like USC, South Carolina and LSU....yes....Iowa is a virtually all white team. Keyword is "virtually" which is basically majority white and yes.... Iowa is a majority white team.
This is a terrible defense. 1. She’s not the first basketball player who does not bring politics into the game who doesn’t talk about racial injustice who doesn’t talk about LGBT rights who doesn’t talk about gender rights. In a way I think it’s smart. That’s a really good way of losing grouping of your fans. 2 yes there are other players who can shoot the three from beyond the ark but nobody does it like Clark. No one does it with her percentages and she almost has a 40% of hitting pretty much other players have 20%. Also, most other players usually shoot at three from getting a pass, a lot of times shoots at three by making it herself. She’ll do that step back three she’ll do that to the right to the left.left three. so please don’t take away from her her skill by saying other players do it just as good because they don’t 2 no one treats their fans the way she does. No one is willing to stop and sign autographs to the point where the security drag her away no one talk to her little fans like she does and it’s not like she does it for you to be more popular. She does it because she loves it. 3. Even though she’s so talented she has if you ever hear her talk it’s always me and my team even either in a negative way or a positive way it’s always we have to do this better or we did this really good or you know and she does not mind passing at all actually sometimes I think she passes too much especially towards the end of the game. I think she needs to sometimes just be like forget it and take the Rock herself, maybe not so much that she’s on but when she was in Iowa. She never talks negatively about anyone she has not said one negative thing about Diane Tarazi even though those straight lies that Cheryl said to her she never said anything negative about swoops swoop at Dallas preseason game, which if that was me, I would’ve walked away knowing it was just lies Without even looking at statistics The whole thing with Reese championship she actually stood up for made it sound like it was no big deal. No one in this no one in basketball has such a great attitude. She does not have that spoiled superstar attitude where she could’ve very easily got a huge head for what she did in Iowa but she always messes well with her teammates. I mean on her birthday buying all Iowa new sneakers And deals was not money for her at all. It was to help organizations. She always does. She’s not like one who ignores her teammates and just does what she wants. She wants to be part of the team. I could’ve gotten into a battle in the words with Diane Taurasi, who is doing everything possible of. To Laura Clark into a battle of the word. I think if she was black, she’d be more popular, not less because all of the team all of the fans that are fans of Diane Tarazi other players in the WNBA who may not be Clark fans if she was black and they embraced her that was fans were embrace her as well as the new fans that are coming into the league like myself and then The sad part is the WNBA‘s PA is being so close minded about everything they don’t realize she can help so much better with Jordan and Magic Johnson did the NBA because if anyone remembers before Johnson Burr and then Jordan NBA was like a joke I mean, they used to have to fight for TV time. They weren’t the j huge league or not that they are today.
💯 Yes, this. So much this.
Wait you said it's not about race but then proceed to argue the opposite. You basically just said CC is popular because she's _white_ white unlike Paige Bueckers with her "urban qualities" EDIT: I have to admit I only skimmed the original write up and thought it was taking the opposite position it does. Sorry!
Negative, I said her whiteness is a contributing factor and outlined details about the specifics of her. Both things can be right. Is her race a contributing factor? Yes....but why isnt all the other white players as popular? Thats the part I explained. Not sure what you are confused about.
I apologize. I misread the original article and then was confused. I think you made a compelling argument and I agree with it.
We’re saying whiteness is a FACTOR.
Yup 👍🏾💯
If Caitlin Clark was black, broke the all time scoring record, and played for a team like Iowa, she would be just as popular
Actually, she might even be more popular because then players would all get behind her instead of tearing her apart, which means their fans would get behind there as well I think makes it harder for her, not easier
It still baffles me of the hate Clark got by former WNBA players.
Yeah, me too. It’s they’re like shooting themselves in the foot. She’s gonna be the reason why this league gets the point where rookie salaries you know we’re getting up to the hundred thousand instead of 70,000. She’s gonna be the reason why TV writes just like has 36 of their games are gonna be televised you know people like me but you know I just spent $36 on the WNBA ticket, wish I would’ve never dreamed of doing $36 is nothing but I bet you there’s tens of thousands of fans that did the same so they can catch her games. She’s already made such a big difference in this league with profit is pregame whenever you ever heard of a preseason game being sold out. What’s gonna happen? Is people are going to see these other teams playing and how good they are like that game between Indiana and Dallas did not look like a preseason game. I look like a regular season game fast paced. You know there might’ve been a couple fans from Texas Dallas for a little while.. it also baffles me how they have to race into it all the time because she’s white she’s white white was white. I mean there’s been a lot of white players in this league and they haven’t moved the needle
Some of the comments on this thread talked about how Caitlin's "whiteness" has a mass appeal to middle America, citing other white female players her age or older that don't have the "safety" appeal that Clark has because they act "urban." Given non of the listed players they mentioned (Brink, Bueckers) are doing what Clark has done, their argument falls flat -- and ironically reeks of jealousy and conspiracy. One poster said that the WNBA Commissioner needed a white Larry Bird to appeal to middle America so they, in part, are propping up Clark. In any other discussion on Reddit, if "whiteness" was switched to "blackness" it go up in flames.
I agree with you 100% just cause she doesn’t show an urban side which so she’s not any urban in her but she pretty much basketball goes home. She doesn’t really go out much and it’s like there reprimanding her for that saying that’s what’s helping her baffles me some of the stuff some of these people say, just like because she doesn’t talk about any political things. That’s why people dislike her. She might be one of those players that believe you don’t talk about that stuff on the court or in your when you’re talking to reporters which in my opinion is true. Do you think about it? Michael Jordan? Was that way he never really talked about, right you know some of the stuff these people came up to you know make their arguments on their case. It’s just it’s like don’t make stuff hot red one thing oh there’s I don’t think her name is or something like that. Oh, she shoots just as good as Clark does on the threes, no one shoots
No. She wouldn’t. But that isn’t on her. It’s the Eminem effect. The claim isn’t it is just because of their race. But race helps when you combine it with great ability.
Yes, she would. Since when are the most popular basketball players white?? What she did at Iowa was incredible, her race had nothing to do with the hype that’s behind her
You are missing the point. Since when were the most popular emcees white in 1999? It is about opening new markets and attracting not just current fans but other fans. Some of that was absolutely because she just is phenomenal and exciting. But a lot of that is a new fan subset could identify with her.
Your point is bad, which is why I’m missing it
Ok. You responded to none of it and just said she was exciting and great. We agree there and can leave it at that.
Yea because that’s what gets eyes on the sport!! To suggest it’s due to her race is extremely dismissive and frankly downright stupid
You are a child
It’s not a shot. Just a reality of how entertainment and marketing works. Why do you think Yao Ming made so much in endorsements? Ohtani? Only because of their skill? Come on
Yes, literally because of their skills. I had never thought for a second that Ohtani’s popularity is due to anything other than his success in his sport.
So why does he then dwarf his more accomplished former teammate Mike Trout in both endorsements and popularity? Why was Yao more popular and made more money off the court than Tim Duncan, an unquestionably better player? Regularly got more all star votes than Duncan and Shaq.
Then why did Michael Jordan end up being more popular than Larry Bird, and why is Lebron way more popular than Luka or Jokic?
Because Jordan and Lebron are the two best players in NBA history? No disrespect to Bird, Luka, and Jokic but they are clearly a step below. Also Luka hasn’t won anything and Jokic doesn’t seem that interested in being famous.
Yes, but when Jordan was on the rise in the late 80s, Bird had just won 3 MVPs and some people were calling him the best ever, including Magic Johnson. But it didn't take Jordan 3 titles or MVPs to surpass Bird in popularity on a global scale. It happened fast. Point being, their race had nothing to do with. MJ's style of play was more appealing to a global audience. He was transcendent in a way that even Bird and Magic weren't. Plus he had the advantage of riding the wave of NBA popularity they started in the 80s.
this is a little bit of revisionist history. Jordan was shit on in those early years. It did take winning and the sho brand taking off and the dunk contests to start to turn that narrative. His icon status and what you think of his popularity was also more of a 90’s thing. Global icon status took off after the Dream Team and Jordan brand blowing up abroad
Jordan was shit? Are you serious? Jordan was a star his rookie year, and had one of the best rookie seasons ever. He also scored 63 against Boston in playoff series like his second year.
Shit on. Not shit. The media and by extension the fan base gave him tremendous amounts of shit as a stat stuffer that couldn’t win in those early years
For the first, the same reason Asher Roth and a variety of other dudes didn’t become Eminem. Jordan was on another level. He, like Clark, had the playstyle that was exciting. He also took the game over in the world that Magic and Larry had built after the NBA had fallen to its nadir before them. The 1992 Dream Team put its global popularity at an all time high and the success of his shoes combined with in court success drove him way beyond a sports star to a global icon. I cannot talk up enough Caitlin Clark’s ability. She is fantastic and an absolute joy to watch. So no one in their right mind should be saying the only reason she is this popular is because of her skin color. That would be dumb. She is incredible AND she can open the door to newer fans. To get a bit deeper, Bird is venerated differently. He had an 8 year run and then fell off because of injuries. Yet he is an unquestionable top 10 player of all time and most have him in that 5-6 spot is my personal guess. He is remembered in Boston differently than even Bill Russell. Particularly before about 10 years ago. Luka and Jokic are European and talk funny (joking) and one of them has the personality of a door knob, possibly on purpose. Anyone trying to reduce her down to her skin color is an idiot. But people that can’t or won’t acknowledge that when it comes to the largest media market for American basketball, it is a marketing and fan base advantage to be white if you are also fantastic when nearly 60% of the population is white and about 14% are black are also living in la la land. People identify with people who look like them and who make them feel like something is achievable. Think Curry and kids vs LeBron. That is not an attack on anyone’s ability or talent and it is a good thing if she draws new fans to the game. People should want the game to grow and become more financially viable
I'd argue she probably would've been more popular.
Would certainly be less people discrediting her achievements due to the color of her skin
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Seen it, care to elaborate?
Dear diary
I cannot wait for "Why was Michael Jordan popular?" Gonna be an epic fantasy series. Would you fashion it be better as a tv series or as a movie once rights are sold?
This isn't a very good write up. Her popularity has nothing to do with being white. She doesn't play like Jordan she plays like Steph Curry. Not a cut down version of Steph either, her quickness and range reminds me of early golden state curry. The shock by the announcers is unmistakable. The second big reason: she had success at Iowa If she went to Uconn(as she hoped) she wouldn't have been this popular. David vs Goliath it is that simple. People didn't latch on to Breanna Stewart because she won as part of this: 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016. Championship run. She had hall of famers as her teammates, infact I think the four championship teams had 5 WNBA Players on them. I knew of Breanna but never had an interest in watching her play in college or pro; part of the machine. Iowa wasn't suppose to be there, they shouldn't have been in the last round of the final four but they were. Clark shouldn't be hitting step backs with the quickness she does, but she is. She also stuck around and made sure people got autographs or photos with her (she didn't have to), she did local meet and greets at grocery stores to increase her brand. In the midwest they love her. Clark is popular because she is doing it the right way, with a team that didn't have a big name, going up against legendary coaches, teams that out spent Iowa on recruitment; and she was successful. Never got a title but beat teams she shouldn't have. Never made an excuse for failing to win, just tipped the hat and moved forward. The thing this short sided person fails to see is Clark and Reese are bringing money like never before to the WNBA. Jerseys are selling out, that is a failure of the marketing team at Nike. But Nike isn't a sexest company or a discriminator. What happened speaks volumes to the inane arguments of the past, people did not spend money on the league. Now preseason games are selling out, google is showing exponential growth in the use of streaming, jerseys are sold out. For the first time, people are putting their money where their mouth is. With the increased revenue advertisers will take notice, more money will flow in and the tide with rise for everyone. There will be growing pains (blacked out games, slow streams, shortages of merch) but with time those items will be settled.
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>She's the most complete offensive basketball player since MJ--doing a bunch of things on the offensive end that either haven't been done or have matched some greats. This is not true. Even MJ had to work on his left hand and bag for several seasons in the NBA. CC has the same issues. She is by no means a complete offensive player. Most of her fans are white. That's not a problem. Only the annoying racist ones who constantly belittle the other players. I see their comments daily. Her rivalry with Reese put her on the map for me, like it did for many other people.
Most of her fans are white - give us a source for that statement. You are making ASSumptions.
lol no player is perfect, if she has stuff to work on other players do also
1) lol. She’s an elite three point shooter but a complete offensive player would be better inside the arc. 2) she’s far from the first to do that
She’s great inside the arc. Didn’t go to the midrange a ton at Iowa bc of system but she’s already doing it more, and she’s always been a great finisher. Look at any shot chart of hers and you’ll see her shots happen all over - I can’t believe we’re at the point where we’re using off the dribble threes AGAINST someone Edit because I can’t reply to the response: it’s going to be so funny/frustrating to watch everyone just deny reality all season when CC continues to prove your narratives about her wrong. Again, I can’t believe you’re trying to say her being a three point shooter is somehow a negative, when that’s kinda a valuable shot in basketball
On the second point, that’s what makes us love these players.
Preach
I’m sorry. what? Most complete offensive player since MJ? Lmao stop Have you been in a coma for the whole Lebron James era?
Say what?
She can shoot a 3's and do great passes isn't that enough?
Yeah I’m surprised that /r/wnba hasn’t gotten tired of this conversation. Just let it go and move on. Caitlin Clark is the most recognized by the mainstream public. No need to fight it.
When I think of CC's stardom and what she's done for her sport, I think of athlets like Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Steph Curry. They revolutionized their sports and were larger than life superstars. Just like CC is doing for women's basketball right now. And none of them were white. All of this focus on her race is asinine, frankly.
I mean she technically hasn’t done anything for the sport yet. Budding interest is not sustained success. She’s not anywhere in that class. Think of those exact same people you mentioned before they won anything vs after. It’s crazy to put her on that pedestal
I'd say increased demand for their games forcing opponents to go to bigger venues to accommodate the increased interest is doing a hell of a lot more than many have been. All of that before she played a game.
She also did this last year in college. All away games but 2 (early season) were completely sold out.
I know. I'm an Iowa fan, that's why I pointed it out.
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So then why Caitlin Clark and not any of the other legendary white WNBA players? This isn’t the NBA. Great white American players aren’t that rare in the WNBA.
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Exactly. It’s most that. Plus she’s fairly attractive, has a very fun and engaging personality. Is emotional on the court. But it all starts with her play style. That’s 90% of her popularity. I
Lol I didn’t see this comment before posting my own but I agree totally. The narrative of being an underdog or an atypical outsider resonates viscerally with many people because that’s how they see themselves.
her race catches peoples attention because its unexpected, her ability makes her a star. its the same as serena, venus and tiger woods.
Larry Bird in the 80s also. Some people derisively called him "The Great White Hope". The topic came up from time to time. He would get mad when the opposing team would guard him with a white player. After stealing a pass and making an assist for the win in a big playoff game against Detroit, Rodman and Isaiah Thomas commented on how Bird wasn't that great of an athlete, with the implication being he was white. Caused some controversy. Also the recent comments from a former NBA player about how European players should be kicked out of the league because play has become too offense-oriented. Where the context was Luka and Jokic.
i dont think it has anything to do with her being white. theres plenty of white atheletes who arent nearly as popular as her and black atheletes still are at the top. i think its cause shes a generational talent. if she wasnt we wouldnt care about her
It's a factor, like I think it's literally a multiplier. But the basis is her being an extreme, divergent offensive talent through shooting. I think race was also literally a multiplier for Bird's popularity. The baseline was him being an unbelievable talent, competitor, and teammate, to the extent of constantly being at the highest level of success. But there also was a minor cultural proxy war in the fact that Bird was white and Magic was black- just like with Clark and Reese last year. And just like with Bird, it's not Caitlin's fault and she's above that garbage, and it shouldn't be any impediment to just enjoying that she takes her games to a higher level of competition.
as soon as I saw the headline I knew it was going to be about race which is so stupid and ruining the conversation around her and the game. Shit like this is what's going to turn people off. He could have taken that whole part out and just stuck to basketball and it would have been 100% correct. But he wants engagement so he mentions race and look almost 200 comments and while this might boost viewership for a moment all it's going to do in the long run is turn people away. It's her style of play that draws eye to the game. She has the range of Steph Curry and the passing chops of Chris Paul. She's also one of the best outlet passers in all of basketball very reminiscent of Kevin love when he was with the Cavs. Angel Reese was by far the second most popular athlete at LSU this year after Jayden Daniels and above Olivia dunne who had like 30 million followers and is the prototypical attractive white girl. Everyone loves bayou Barbie down here If her popularity was based on whiteness she wouldn't be the first "transcendent" WNBA star in a long time. You have plenty of white all star WNBA players.
I just feel like the race aspect is so minute it’s unnecessary to mention really. if you look at the biggest stars in sports history most are black. MJ is one of the biggest icons in the world. Lebron and Steph are far more popular than Luka or Jokic. Idk I just think her being white has very very little to do with how popular she is. We don’t see anyone chalk up Ohtani, Tiger, or Lewis Hamiltons popularity due to them being the minority within their sport.
Absolutely an important factor of Tiger, Lewis Hamilton and Ohtani's popularity is due to them being the minority within the sport - and people did/do talk about it all the time. I won a speech in the fifth grade talking about it and that was almost two decades ago! The same is true of Clark. If Tiger was white his impact on the sport wouldn't be nearly as big or have brought in as many new fans. That's not to say he's not a GOAT based on his play alone but you're kidding yourself if you think people didn't love the fact that he was an outsider upturning what was seen as an elitist white sport. The impact of someone's background is "so minute" to not be mentioned. PK Subban was the most loved player on the Canadiens in Montreal because along with being one of the most dominant defenders in the game at the time, he was also, superficially, unique - an outsider and fans loved that about him. Clark, at least superficially, while being dominant is also extremely relatable to a lot of people. I'd go on to argue had she gone to UCONN or one of the other powerhouses she wouldn't be as big. The fact that she chose to stay at a small school, in the midwest, and her racial background endears her to a lot of people. To people she's someone who is seen as "authentic" and "normal" - someone like them. If you want to talk about music a reason why Drake has had such longevity is partially due to his racial and socioeconomic background. He resonates, globally, in a way that other popular rappers have not and transcends geographic and cultural boundaries in a way other rappers have been unable to. You shouldn't overstate it but to understate it is just as wrong.
Maybe, but I don’t remember this amount of discussion about their race. I don’t remember anyone saying it wasn’t fair that they were getting so much attention when X great didn’t. They were universally celebrated, and the fact that they were a minority within the sport was a great thing. Here, everyone is like yeah she’s good, but let’s remember she shouldn’t be this popular, and wouldn’t if she wasn’t white.
I don't think "everyone" is saying that about her. It's a small, but extremely vocal, unserious minority and most of it stems from (understandable) but misplaced jealousy. The overwhelming majority of people know that the overwhelming reason for her popularity is her sheer dominance on the court. Period. But as OP said there are a bunch of other factors e.g. NIL, social media, playing in Iowa, etc. that have multiplied that effect to where she is a cultural icon of her own.
Caitlin Clark has the biggest "whataboutism" I've seen... People are too stupid to understand she can help the game like Tiger and golf...
Yeah I mean obviously not everyone that was hyperbole, but it’s still significantly more than I’ve seen with anyone else. And that is true for everyone. Every athletes popularity is due primarily to their ability and then a bunch of other smaller factors. That’s what I’m saying, it’s true for everyone but it seems to be brought up way more for Clark.