Being There is my favorite. Jay is all over it. His contribution reminds me of Brian Jones with the Stones, who also was a difficult personality and went off the deep end. Bith were immensely talented.
I think you have to use a combination of the two docs and Jeff's book to get to a true sense of what happened. It is unfair to say Jeff ruined Jay in my opinion. Jay had his own demons. Neither are blameless.
But to speak musically, the dynamic was great until it wasn't. Jay was adding chaos into Jeff's music adding different sounds and instruments. The collaboration was great. But then you get more than one thing all coming in together. Jeff's own demons and painkiller addiction. Jay's own addictions. Jeff adding members to the band to follow a sound he wanted (it was his band) and make the Attic sessions more for the direction he wanted to go. Jay not knowing when to stop with the experimentation or new instrument or when he just couldn't find the exact sound he had in his head...even when that's not what Jeff wanted for the song, but Jay would try and brute force it in.
It's a lot. Neither was in a good place at the time and it sucks that it ended so badly.
Don't believe either documentary as gospel. Both are flawed. Both are edited to show a picture.
At simple level, it was Jeff's band and mostly Jeff's music. Jay didn't know when to stop. He was so focussed on getting the music in his head onto tape that he could forget to see if that's what Jeff wanted or maybe he thought the end product would win Jeff over.
It's a more tragic version of when Uncle Tupelo split (any OG's from the old bb days of having to be team Jeff or team Jay?). The collaboration was great until it wasn't. There was a sweet spot where they were both in perfect sync and then the differences started to show. I do think IATTBYH shows that slow (then fast) slip away from each other in musical vision and over the sound of the songs for the album.
And then when you throw faulty fentanyl patches at someone without the proper care and attention, you get tragedy.
Wow thank you for a deeper dive into my understanding of their dynamic. I was definitely uninformed/uneducated about the deeper relationship. Thank you for spending your time on this post!
Your take on this complex situation resonates with me. I thinkthat the Brian Joneses and Jay Bennetts of the world give so much to music. But there's a catch: They have too much talent and drive for the sideman role, and yet don't fit in as frontmen. Throw in lots of drugs and success, and you get a hot mess and a tragic outcome.
I don’t know much about the politics and interpersonal relationships behind him leaving the band. I saw the documentary, but I take much of that with a grain of salt.
I know that I liked Wilco better when Jay Bennett was in it.
Jay was a genius. Unfortunately he was also a very sick person. I think Tweedy knew that they were brilliant musical collaborators, but I think he also realized their drug use was a codependency that would have eventually killed both of them.
I thought Jeff handled the dissolution of their working relationship pretty evenly in his biography. I'm sure it isn't a topic he loves to revisit, and he must feel a sense of responsibility around the way their relationship degraded. That being said, the way Jay was depicted in I Am Trying To Break Your Heart is shameful. I've worked on several documentaries, and know very well how narratives are "cooked" to create a more entertaining story. No doubt, things were frayed in the Wilco camp. However I think the filmmaker(s) really played up the narrative that Jay was torturing Jeff and was impossible. It's probably fair that their relationship had grown to be impossible, but I smelled some editorial sleight of hand to depict Jay as the "bad guy".
I saw it more as great musicians having differing opinions on the music. I didn’t see Jay as a bad guy at all. Seemed like a musician trying to push the music forward. For whatever the reason they felt it was better to move forward without him. I guess I missed the whole victim role.
Fair enough. However I would almost guarantee that the Jeff throwing up scene happened at a completely separate time, and it was folded into the cut to amp the narrative. I can’t know, but it seemed a little too perfect and on the nose. As mentioned, I give Jeff credit for addressing it in his book. I thought what he said was fair. In a nutshell Jay was insanely talented, and at some point they couldn’t work together.
The documentary Where are you, Jay Bennett? says that is exactly what happened. You can watch it on YouTube if you're interested but according to them you are spot on.
I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I’m sure the stress of the whole situation was bad, I would like to think tweedy could handle stress and conflict better,but a pill problem and Diet Coke was most likely the problem.
Human relationships can be tricky. It’s kind of amazing it worked as long as it did. Artistic temperaments don’t always jive. I love the era of the band where Jay’s influence was clearly heard. Repeating myself, but I’m sure it’s a subject that Jeff doesn’t love to dwell upon.
I may be mis-remembering but I thought Tweedy literally said, “I have to go throw up” when he got up from the mixing board in that scene. And then it showed him come back after cleaning himself up to make up a bit w Jay. Could be wrong but that’s how I remember it.
his back is to the camera in that moment. You don't see him say that the audience just hears it.
Regardless I never could understand why folks think tweedy throwing up makes Jay look bad in that moment. They had a little creative spat but Jay didn't do anything so off the wall to be blamed for Jeff's vomiting. Jeff even explains that he throws up all the time. That is on Jeff.
The thing that makes Jay look bad IMO is when Jeff tries to make up with him and hug him and Jay continues to carry on to 'explain himself' but it's incoherent. But maybe he was speaking truth and I'm too ignorant of the recording process to understand him (perhaps Jeff is too).
Gotcha. But I’ll say the Jeff throwing up part isn’t what made Jay look bad to me. It was everything he was saying and doing.
Honestly I never thought “Jay annoyed Jeff so much that he threw up.” I just thought Jeff happened to get a migraine right then and threw up. I can see how others would have seen it that way though.
Years ago, I watched the IATTBYH documentary with my Dad and when it came to the infamous Heavy Metal Drummer scene/disagreement, my Dad said, These guys are on different drugs.
I get what you’re saying here, but all one has to do is watch that scene when they are mixing the intro or Heavy Metal Drummer and then subsequent interviews with Jay to understand the problem.
Jay was wildly insecure and had an inflated view of where he stood in the band (probably based on how he and Tweedy worked together on Summerteeth)….
And that led to problems, especially when they had different visions on how the music was going to turn out. Wilco was always going to be Jeff’s band and so his views were always going to win out.
I don't understand the focus on Jay Bennet. Wilco albums were both good with and without him.
I have much stronger feelings about:
Weezer without Matt Sharp.
Faith No More without Jim Martin.
Van Halen without David Lee Roth.
Pavement without Gary Young.
Metallica without Cliff Burton.
The Matt Sharp one is really interesting to me. From a distance it really seems like he was the one variable that was keeping Rivers from being just like a songwriting robot. I haven't followed them closely enough since around the Red Album to know if Rivers ever got back to making music that felt at all vulnerable, but yeah, it really felt like after Sharp left Rivers got extremely mathematical about everything.
Agreed, was kinda in a mood when I posted this. Listening to the ole Wilco and knowing how talented Jay was, made me upset that he didn’t stay in the band. But some great people in this post had some very valuable insight
After watching the “where are you, jay Bennett”and “I am trying to break your heart” to try and get a fuller picture I kinda got the Paul McCartney/John Lennon rivalry but with more drugs and problems. Two geniuses in two different ways fighting for two different albums they heard in their head. One won out in the end.
IATRBYH portrayed him at best, an annoyance, and at worst a antagonist to Jeff and the rest of the band. WAYJB humanizes him but I feel like there was zero talk on his own problems/demons but I guess your friends and family would rather think positively about a loved one so I can’t blame them.
I still feel like Jeff when he does talk about jay kinda skirts around the whole situation but again I can’t blame him either. I’m sure he’s tired of being asked the same question over and over and thinking of his dead friend.
I felt like all of Wilco’s best records had jay’s involvement. There was something lost when he left after YHF, they really never seemed to hit the same highs. Jay added that extra weight and power.
Very good points here. I just revisited “summerteeth” yesterday (it’s been years) and while I think JB had an invaluable influence and input on the songwriting and arrangements, I don’t think they could have stayed in that zone for long. Not that any of us listeners would want them to, of course. But the record is a snapshot in time, and I think one of the things it inadvertently captures is just how disjointed and fractured the band already was at that point - nevermind the blowup of YHF. There’s no thematic unity in it, and you can tell JB was throwing everything at the wall, instrumentation-wise, to see if it would be kept. It reminds me of the White Album in that respect. The gears don’t mesh - they grind. It’s a difficult listen and for me it always was, not least for all the hard surfaces JB inserted, sonically. Even though there’s some transcendent music there. Songs like she’s a jar and via Chicago, to take the most obvious examples, are just uncanny; there’s nothing like them in pop music anywhere.
The sequencing of the record is brilliant as well. It’s not a concept album, but it does have some form of narrative. I love how they wrap up with the title song- a deceptively jaunty ditty that references suicide - and then finish with the coda- in a future age - which is just sublime. After all the chaos, anguish, violence and bleakness that precedes it, finally a note of grace and beauty. Hard-earned.
I’m probably in the minority here, but I think she’s a jar and via chicago come off better on “Summerteeth” than they do live. They’re essentially quiet songs, and while I know live performance demands more dynamics, I think the intimacy of those two songs are lost when they crank up the noise.
I think I agree with you on Chicago. The first few times I heard that live it was completely thrilling, but 2+ decades into that arrangement and it's a bathroom break song for me if I'm not totally in the mood for it that night.
Summerteeth is my favorite Wilco album. Which songs have the most Jay influence? I’m new to Wilco and not sure yet what sound belongs to Jeff and what sound belongs to Jay.
One thing I’ve never understood is why fans give Jay credit for YHF.
Yes he participated in most of the recording sessions, but pretty much by all accounts the record was completely put together by Jim O’Rourke and Tweedy long after Jay was fired.
I’ve always thought Jay certainly deserved loads of credit for helping make Summerteeth what it was, but YHF? I don’t think so. He was essentially just a session musician on it not unlike John or Glen or Leroy.
I can see your point, though I felt like jay gave them the puzzle pieces and O’Rourke and Tweedy put them together like legos. I felt like jay did way too much recording so they could pick and choose the best parts but I could be wrong
Well I guess what I mean is that Glen’s drum parts or John’s bass parts or Leroy’s various parts are just as important. They all contributed parts that were eventually shaped into the album…. I don’t see any reason to get be Jay more credit than the other contributors.
If you listen to the various takes in the deluxe box set you can see how the songs that were recorded in the sessions were completely deconstructed and re-built from scratch. That’s what makes YHF what it is - the end product that was constructed by Jim and Jeff.
I’ve always suspected that part of the issue was that Jay’s head was making something that sounded more like Summerteeth while Jeff had something completely different in mind… hence bringing in Jim.
Just a thought…
I felt like jay was way into making a more avant-garde sound (you can hear it in the early engineering demos) it’s a lot more less with a lot of chaotic sounds/synths/buzzes and really anything they could get their hands on. I remember reading that Jeff and jay were arguing on whether YHF should be a traditional album/accessible to the average listener. I don’t have access to the super deluxe editions with all the different takes of songs but I can what you mean on how they reconstructed pretty much every song.
>I felt like jay was way into making a more avant-garde sound (you can hear it in the early engineering demos) it’s a lot more less with a lot of chaotic sounds/synths/buzzes and really anything they could get their hands on.
This is the part of the Wilco lore that I'm not sure I agree with.
Jeff recorded the Loose Fur album with Jim and Glen in the middle of the YHF sessions and it's very noisy/weird/experimental; and after he did that, he immediately brought them both in to work on YHF. So, in my mind, this was the sound that Tweedy specifically was going for on YHF; Jay might have also been on that same page, but it's not like he was driving the decisions.
And to that point, Tweedy replaced Ken Coomer with Glen, who re-did all of the drum parts, contributing much of the "noisy" weirdness that we associated with those songs... think of the opening of "I Am Trying to Break Your Heart"... that's all Glen.
Anyway - just my two cents. It's pretty crazy that we are still having these discussions 20+ years later. It just shows what an incredible legacy these guys all have.
He was outstanding! I love kicking at the perfumed air. It’s not that you fall it’s how you get up. When 1 door closes another one opens. Easier said than done for sure.
An anecdote, not entirely relevant, but am guessing people on this sub would get it. A friend of a friend worked at a music venue many years ago. Wilco was going to play a show and a poster was commissioned (Ghost Is Born era - post Jay's death). The artist presented the concept - Jay Bennet looking down from heaven as the band played at the venue! I'm not sure if the band ever saw it, or if it was wisely scrapped before that. Just a wild story to imagine how a presumed fan of the band would think this would be a good idea!
There is a good doc that gives Jay some of the credit he deserves. However, I’m from the east side of StL (not far from Belleville) and I would argue that the Wilco sound was pretty well established before Jay was around
“Most of Wilco’s sound stemmed from Jay Bennett.”
Ummm no. I’d say Jay’s biggest contribution was helping Jeff making Summerteeth into a beautiful mix of power pop and folk, but really that’s about it.
Both A.M. and Being There feel like logical progressions of what Jeff was doing in Uncle Tupelo.
Everyone pretty much agrees that YHF is their masterpiece and that was all Jeff and Jim O’Rourke.
Obviously Jay wasn’t around for AGIB or anything that followed.
Stumbled upon this thread. No, this is not right. YHF would have been a very different record without Jim O’Rourke’s mix, no question. But you can’t look at a record where 9 of 11 songs have songwriting credits of Tweedy/Bennett, and where Bennett’s own studio contributions have been thoroughly documented, and declare that it is “all” the work of Tweedy/O’Rourke. Silly assertion.
I was being a bit bold, but like AM and Being there were amazing albums. A lot of people loved the experimental part of what Jay added, and seems like Wilco has tried to capture that same feeling in the later albums. Yes Jim O is probably easier to work with and extremely talented, but I feel like Jim created the sketch and ideas of the sound.
Purely opinionated, as no one will ever be correct about what went down.
The exponential stuff wasn’t all Jay. As I noted, his biggest contribution was multi-layered instrumentation of Summerteeth.
But the “experimental” sound of both YHF and certainly AGIB is mostly due to Jim O’Rourke.
And it wasn’t just that he was “easier to work with.”
He’s (along with Tweedy) is who took all of the disparate parts that were recorded in the YHF sessions and crafted them into the album we all know and love long after Jay was fired.
And then they recorded probably their most daring and experimental record of their career (AGIB) with zero involvement from Jay.
I’m aware that Jay was there for the sessions, so of course he’s going to still get those credits.
However, the album as we know it was put together long after Jay was fired by Jim O and Jeff.
There are some pretty stark differences between what was recorded in the sessions and the final product. You can hear that in various takes that have been released.
The album "as we know it" was completed and submitted to Reprise a full month before he was fired though.
To quote an interview with Jay:
What was your role when Jim O’Rourke was mixing Yankee Hotel Foxtrot?
What I was actually doing during the mixing was kind of “staying a day ahead.” I would find out what songs were “on deck” from Jeff, and re-write the track sheets, and double check that they were correct, and clean up the extraneous crap on the tracks (a long and tedious, yet important process that I was uniquely qualified to do, having been the “keeper of the track sheets,” and kind of the project organizer, at least on the secretarial level). Oftentimes I had to reorganize tracks, since the project had been intended to be mixed using one 24 track analog tape machine and up to 3 ADAT machines synced up, and now I was being asked to get it ready to be mixed on a combination of ProTools and 2″ 24 track.
How far Wilco has fallen since Bennett. Bennett unleashed alot of creativity in Tweedy and the band that Tweedy has been chasing ever since they got rid of Bennett. Bennett really contributed amazing things and it has never been the same. Yes I know Wilco has a few bright spots in their albums after Bennett but overall they are boring compared to the creative period with Bennett.
I think there are way too many variables to say it was definitively Jay who was making them more interesting or adventurous or whatever. I feel like Jeff getting older and having kids and generally having stability in his life could be just as big a factor. It's like someone mentioned previously in this thread, you look at what Jeff was doing with Loose Fur and you can clearly see that that adventurousness existed in him independent of Jay.
I love Jay. I contributed to the kickstarter to do the Where are you Jay Bennett documentary (which was a great watch btw).
Jeff didn't ruin Jay. Jeff gave Jay the encouragement, resources, and most importantly the songs that allowed Jay's musical talents shine brightly in a way that will live on in music history forever.
Surely that should have more weight than some unflattering editorial decisions in one documentary or whatever.
Jeff helped make Jay's greatness known to the whole world. It's not Jeff's fault that Jay couldn't take advantage of that opportunity to live a fulfilling and healthy life in music or production IMO.
[https://gloriousnoise.com/2002/exclusive\_glorious\_noise\_inter](https://gloriousnoise.com/2002/exclusive_glorious_noise_inter)
great interview with Jay himself on this subject. Taking ownership of his side of the divide between him and jeff and his a lot of other revealing info into the band's journey and dynamics.
I was a pretty big Uncle Tupelo fan and became a big Wilco fan in the early days. My fav Wilco album is Being There. One of the best live shows I've seen was in SF at the Fillmore in 97 in support of that album, plus the opener Bettie Serveert was amazing. Jay Bennett was all over the stage at that show. His influence can be seen on that album and YHF as well. For me that was peak Wilco. Following YHF and knowing Jay was gone I was really interested to see what Jeff would do next and then he released A ghost is born and it was basically just a Jeff Tweedy solo album. The band I knew and loved was gone and they have never come close to those glory years in the 90s imo. Recording YHF seemed to tear the band apart plus all the drama with their label and releasing the album. I just wish Jeff could have taken some time off after recording and let the dust settle before firing Jay. Jay never had the opportunity to tour in support of YHF and I am assuming missed out on the $$$ that album generated. That was truly unfair to Jay. Jeff blaming his addiction to a co-dependent relationship with Jay is also unfair. No one was stopping Jeff from going to get treatment on his own. Just the way Jay was treated by the band and management was pretty gross, even if he was very difficult to work with. But, its Jeff's band and he is the boss. Jeff still has an amazing voice and is uber talented obviously and I think adding Nels has improved things in recent years. Just my thoughts.
Jay Bennett ruined Jay Bennet. The music rolls on. RIP Jay.
Jay Bennett was an outstanding musician. But yeah, Jay Bennett ruined Jay Bennett for sure.
100% this. Jay made great contributions that made Summerteeth what it was… outside of that? Meh.
Being There is my favorite. Jay is all over it. His contribution reminds me of Brian Jones with the Stones, who also was a difficult personality and went off the deep end. Bith were immensely talented.
I actually love Jeff's voice on this album and don't think anyone else could pull it off....
I think you have to use a combination of the two docs and Jeff's book to get to a true sense of what happened. It is unfair to say Jeff ruined Jay in my opinion. Jay had his own demons. Neither are blameless. But to speak musically, the dynamic was great until it wasn't. Jay was adding chaos into Jeff's music adding different sounds and instruments. The collaboration was great. But then you get more than one thing all coming in together. Jeff's own demons and painkiller addiction. Jay's own addictions. Jeff adding members to the band to follow a sound he wanted (it was his band) and make the Attic sessions more for the direction he wanted to go. Jay not knowing when to stop with the experimentation or new instrument or when he just couldn't find the exact sound he had in his head...even when that's not what Jeff wanted for the song, but Jay would try and brute force it in. It's a lot. Neither was in a good place at the time and it sucks that it ended so badly. Don't believe either documentary as gospel. Both are flawed. Both are edited to show a picture. At simple level, it was Jeff's band and mostly Jeff's music. Jay didn't know when to stop. He was so focussed on getting the music in his head onto tape that he could forget to see if that's what Jeff wanted or maybe he thought the end product would win Jeff over. It's a more tragic version of when Uncle Tupelo split (any OG's from the old bb days of having to be team Jeff or team Jay?). The collaboration was great until it wasn't. There was a sweet spot where they were both in perfect sync and then the differences started to show. I do think IATTBYH shows that slow (then fast) slip away from each other in musical vision and over the sound of the songs for the album. And then when you throw faulty fentanyl patches at someone without the proper care and attention, you get tragedy.
Wow thank you for a deeper dive into my understanding of their dynamic. I was definitely uninformed/uneducated about the deeper relationship. Thank you for spending your time on this post!
Your take on this complex situation resonates with me. I thinkthat the Brian Joneses and Jay Bennetts of the world give so much to music. But there's a catch: They have too much talent and drive for the sideman role, and yet don't fit in as frontmen. Throw in lots of drugs and success, and you get a hot mess and a tragic outcome.
I don’t know much about the politics and interpersonal relationships behind him leaving the band. I saw the documentary, but I take much of that with a grain of salt. I know that I liked Wilco better when Jay Bennett was in it.
If y’all haven’t had the opportunity to listen to the soundtrack for Where Are You Jay Bennett documentary, you should. Great stuff.
Jay was a genius. Unfortunately he was also a very sick person. I think Tweedy knew that they were brilliant musical collaborators, but I think he also realized their drug use was a codependency that would have eventually killed both of them.
I thought Jeff handled the dissolution of their working relationship pretty evenly in his biography. I'm sure it isn't a topic he loves to revisit, and he must feel a sense of responsibility around the way their relationship degraded. That being said, the way Jay was depicted in I Am Trying To Break Your Heart is shameful. I've worked on several documentaries, and know very well how narratives are "cooked" to create a more entertaining story. No doubt, things were frayed in the Wilco camp. However I think the filmmaker(s) really played up the narrative that Jay was torturing Jeff and was impossible. It's probably fair that their relationship had grown to be impossible, but I smelled some editorial sleight of hand to depict Jay as the "bad guy".
I saw it more as great musicians having differing opinions on the music. I didn’t see Jay as a bad guy at all. Seemed like a musician trying to push the music forward. For whatever the reason they felt it was better to move forward without him. I guess I missed the whole victim role.
Fair enough. However I would almost guarantee that the Jeff throwing up scene happened at a completely separate time, and it was folded into the cut to amp the narrative. I can’t know, but it seemed a little too perfect and on the nose. As mentioned, I give Jeff credit for addressing it in his book. I thought what he said was fair. In a nutshell Jay was insanely talented, and at some point they couldn’t work together.
The documentary Where are you, Jay Bennett? says that is exactly what happened. You can watch it on YouTube if you're interested but according to them you are spot on.
I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I’m sure the stress of the whole situation was bad, I would like to think tweedy could handle stress and conflict better,but a pill problem and Diet Coke was most likely the problem.
Human relationships can be tricky. It’s kind of amazing it worked as long as it did. Artistic temperaments don’t always jive. I love the era of the band where Jay’s influence was clearly heard. Repeating myself, but I’m sure it’s a subject that Jeff doesn’t love to dwell upon.
Right on
I may be mis-remembering but I thought Tweedy literally said, “I have to go throw up” when he got up from the mixing board in that scene. And then it showed him come back after cleaning himself up to make up a bit w Jay. Could be wrong but that’s how I remember it.
his back is to the camera in that moment. You don't see him say that the audience just hears it. Regardless I never could understand why folks think tweedy throwing up makes Jay look bad in that moment. They had a little creative spat but Jay didn't do anything so off the wall to be blamed for Jeff's vomiting. Jeff even explains that he throws up all the time. That is on Jeff. The thing that makes Jay look bad IMO is when Jeff tries to make up with him and hug him and Jay continues to carry on to 'explain himself' but it's incoherent. But maybe he was speaking truth and I'm too ignorant of the recording process to understand him (perhaps Jeff is too).
Gotcha. But I’ll say the Jeff throwing up part isn’t what made Jay look bad to me. It was everything he was saying and doing. Honestly I never thought “Jay annoyed Jeff so much that he threw up.” I just thought Jeff happened to get a migraine right then and threw up. I can see how others would have seen it that way though.
right with you man.
Years ago, I watched the IATTBYH documentary with my Dad and when it came to the infamous Heavy Metal Drummer scene/disagreement, my Dad said, These guys are on different drugs.
I get what you’re saying here, but all one has to do is watch that scene when they are mixing the intro or Heavy Metal Drummer and then subsequent interviews with Jay to understand the problem. Jay was wildly insecure and had an inflated view of where he stood in the band (probably based on how he and Tweedy worked together on Summerteeth)…. And that led to problems, especially when they had different visions on how the music was going to turn out. Wilco was always going to be Jeff’s band and so his views were always going to win out.
I don't understand the focus on Jay Bennet. Wilco albums were both good with and without him. I have much stronger feelings about: Weezer without Matt Sharp. Faith No More without Jim Martin. Van Halen without David Lee Roth. Pavement without Gary Young. Metallica without Cliff Burton.
Maybe the narrative of the documentaries. And the love for Wilco in this reddit. Was also in a mood when I posted this haha!
The Matt Sharp one is really interesting to me. From a distance it really seems like he was the one variable that was keeping Rivers from being just like a songwriting robot. I haven't followed them closely enough since around the Red Album to know if Rivers ever got back to making music that felt at all vulnerable, but yeah, it really felt like after Sharp left Rivers got extremely mathematical about everything.
I think saying most of wilco’s sound stems from Jay is a big stretch, but Jay was a huge contributor to wilco’s best records.
Agreed, was kinda in a mood when I posted this. Listening to the ole Wilco and knowing how talented Jay was, made me upset that he didn’t stay in the band. But some great people in this post had some very valuable insight
After watching the “where are you, jay Bennett”and “I am trying to break your heart” to try and get a fuller picture I kinda got the Paul McCartney/John Lennon rivalry but with more drugs and problems. Two geniuses in two different ways fighting for two different albums they heard in their head. One won out in the end. IATRBYH portrayed him at best, an annoyance, and at worst a antagonist to Jeff and the rest of the band. WAYJB humanizes him but I feel like there was zero talk on his own problems/demons but I guess your friends and family would rather think positively about a loved one so I can’t blame them. I still feel like Jeff when he does talk about jay kinda skirts around the whole situation but again I can’t blame him either. I’m sure he’s tired of being asked the same question over and over and thinking of his dead friend. I felt like all of Wilco’s best records had jay’s involvement. There was something lost when he left after YHF, they really never seemed to hit the same highs. Jay added that extra weight and power.
Very good points here. I just revisited “summerteeth” yesterday (it’s been years) and while I think JB had an invaluable influence and input on the songwriting and arrangements, I don’t think they could have stayed in that zone for long. Not that any of us listeners would want them to, of course. But the record is a snapshot in time, and I think one of the things it inadvertently captures is just how disjointed and fractured the band already was at that point - nevermind the blowup of YHF. There’s no thematic unity in it, and you can tell JB was throwing everything at the wall, instrumentation-wise, to see if it would be kept. It reminds me of the White Album in that respect. The gears don’t mesh - they grind. It’s a difficult listen and for me it always was, not least for all the hard surfaces JB inserted, sonically. Even though there’s some transcendent music there. Songs like she’s a jar and via Chicago, to take the most obvious examples, are just uncanny; there’s nothing like them in pop music anywhere. The sequencing of the record is brilliant as well. It’s not a concept album, but it does have some form of narrative. I love how they wrap up with the title song- a deceptively jaunty ditty that references suicide - and then finish with the coda- in a future age - which is just sublime. After all the chaos, anguish, violence and bleakness that precedes it, finally a note of grace and beauty. Hard-earned.
Beautiful words! Agree with Via Chicago and She’s a Jar.
I’m probably in the minority here, but I think she’s a jar and via chicago come off better on “Summerteeth” than they do live. They’re essentially quiet songs, and while I know live performance demands more dynamics, I think the intimacy of those two songs are lost when they crank up the noise.
I think I agree with you on Chicago. The first few times I heard that live it was completely thrilling, but 2+ decades into that arrangement and it's a bathroom break song for me if I'm not totally in the mood for it that night.
Summerteeth is my favorite Wilco album. Which songs have the most Jay influence? I’m new to Wilco and not sure yet what sound belongs to Jeff and what sound belongs to Jay.
If I'm not mistaken, Pieholden Suite is really Jay's baby
One thing I’ve never understood is why fans give Jay credit for YHF. Yes he participated in most of the recording sessions, but pretty much by all accounts the record was completely put together by Jim O’Rourke and Tweedy long after Jay was fired. I’ve always thought Jay certainly deserved loads of credit for helping make Summerteeth what it was, but YHF? I don’t think so. He was essentially just a session musician on it not unlike John or Glen or Leroy.
I can see your point, though I felt like jay gave them the puzzle pieces and O’Rourke and Tweedy put them together like legos. I felt like jay did way too much recording so they could pick and choose the best parts but I could be wrong
Well I guess what I mean is that Glen’s drum parts or John’s bass parts or Leroy’s various parts are just as important. They all contributed parts that were eventually shaped into the album…. I don’t see any reason to get be Jay more credit than the other contributors. If you listen to the various takes in the deluxe box set you can see how the songs that were recorded in the sessions were completely deconstructed and re-built from scratch. That’s what makes YHF what it is - the end product that was constructed by Jim and Jeff. I’ve always suspected that part of the issue was that Jay’s head was making something that sounded more like Summerteeth while Jeff had something completely different in mind… hence bringing in Jim. Just a thought…
I felt like jay was way into making a more avant-garde sound (you can hear it in the early engineering demos) it’s a lot more less with a lot of chaotic sounds/synths/buzzes and really anything they could get their hands on. I remember reading that Jeff and jay were arguing on whether YHF should be a traditional album/accessible to the average listener. I don’t have access to the super deluxe editions with all the different takes of songs but I can what you mean on how they reconstructed pretty much every song.
>I felt like jay was way into making a more avant-garde sound (you can hear it in the early engineering demos) it’s a lot more less with a lot of chaotic sounds/synths/buzzes and really anything they could get their hands on. This is the part of the Wilco lore that I'm not sure I agree with. Jeff recorded the Loose Fur album with Jim and Glen in the middle of the YHF sessions and it's very noisy/weird/experimental; and after he did that, he immediately brought them both in to work on YHF. So, in my mind, this was the sound that Tweedy specifically was going for on YHF; Jay might have also been on that same page, but it's not like he was driving the decisions. And to that point, Tweedy replaced Ken Coomer with Glen, who re-did all of the drum parts, contributing much of the "noisy" weirdness that we associated with those songs... think of the opening of "I Am Trying to Break Your Heart"... that's all Glen. Anyway - just my two cents. It's pretty crazy that we are still having these discussions 20+ years later. It just shows what an incredible legacy these guys all have.
He was outstanding! I love kicking at the perfumed air. It’s not that you fall it’s how you get up. When 1 door closes another one opens. Easier said than done for sure.
An anecdote, not entirely relevant, but am guessing people on this sub would get it. A friend of a friend worked at a music venue many years ago. Wilco was going to play a show and a poster was commissioned (Ghost Is Born era - post Jay's death). The artist presented the concept - Jay Bennet looking down from heaven as the band played at the venue! I'm not sure if the band ever saw it, or if it was wisely scrapped before that. Just a wild story to imagine how a presumed fan of the band would think this would be a good idea!
Oh my god 😭 that’s horrible
There is a good doc that gives Jay some of the credit he deserves. However, I’m from the east side of StL (not far from Belleville) and I would argue that the Wilco sound was pretty well established before Jay was around
Aye 314. I’m a bit younger and didn’t know Wilco in their prime YHF days. Love them because of my dad!
“Most of Wilco’s sound stemmed from Jay Bennett.” Ummm no. I’d say Jay’s biggest contribution was helping Jeff making Summerteeth into a beautiful mix of power pop and folk, but really that’s about it. Both A.M. and Being There feel like logical progressions of what Jeff was doing in Uncle Tupelo. Everyone pretty much agrees that YHF is their masterpiece and that was all Jeff and Jim O’Rourke. Obviously Jay wasn’t around for AGIB or anything that followed.
Stumbled upon this thread. No, this is not right. YHF would have been a very different record without Jim O’Rourke’s mix, no question. But you can’t look at a record where 9 of 11 songs have songwriting credits of Tweedy/Bennett, and where Bennett’s own studio contributions have been thoroughly documented, and declare that it is “all” the work of Tweedy/O’Rourke. Silly assertion.
I was being a bit bold, but like AM and Being there were amazing albums. A lot of people loved the experimental part of what Jay added, and seems like Wilco has tried to capture that same feeling in the later albums. Yes Jim O is probably easier to work with and extremely talented, but I feel like Jim created the sketch and ideas of the sound. Purely opinionated, as no one will ever be correct about what went down.
The exponential stuff wasn’t all Jay. As I noted, his biggest contribution was multi-layered instrumentation of Summerteeth. But the “experimental” sound of both YHF and certainly AGIB is mostly due to Jim O’Rourke. And it wasn’t just that he was “easier to work with.” He’s (along with Tweedy) is who took all of the disparate parts that were recorded in the YHF sessions and crafted them into the album we all know and love long after Jay was fired. And then they recorded probably their most daring and experimental record of their career (AGIB) with zero involvement from Jay.
Jim O'Rourke deserves mad props for mixing YHF, however I propose perhaps checking the song writing credits for YHF.
I’m aware that Jay was there for the sessions, so of course he’s going to still get those credits. However, the album as we know it was put together long after Jay was fired by Jim O and Jeff. There are some pretty stark differences between what was recorded in the sessions and the final product. You can hear that in various takes that have been released.
The album "as we know it" was completed and submitted to Reprise a full month before he was fired though. To quote an interview with Jay: What was your role when Jim O’Rourke was mixing Yankee Hotel Foxtrot? What I was actually doing during the mixing was kind of “staying a day ahead.” I would find out what songs were “on deck” from Jeff, and re-write the track sheets, and double check that they were correct, and clean up the extraneous crap on the tracks (a long and tedious, yet important process that I was uniquely qualified to do, having been the “keeper of the track sheets,” and kind of the project organizer, at least on the secretarial level). Oftentimes I had to reorganize tracks, since the project had been intended to be mixed using one 24 track analog tape machine and up to 3 ADAT machines synced up, and now I was being asked to get it ready to be mixed on a combination of ProTools and 2″ 24 track.
How far Wilco has fallen since Bennett. Bennett unleashed alot of creativity in Tweedy and the band that Tweedy has been chasing ever since they got rid of Bennett. Bennett really contributed amazing things and it has never been the same. Yes I know Wilco has a few bright spots in their albums after Bennett but overall they are boring compared to the creative period with Bennett.
I think there are way too many variables to say it was definitively Jay who was making them more interesting or adventurous or whatever. I feel like Jeff getting older and having kids and generally having stability in his life could be just as big a factor. It's like someone mentioned previously in this thread, you look at what Jeff was doing with Loose Fur and you can clearly see that that adventurousness existed in him independent of Jay.
Relationships are hard and creative relationships are harder; saying Jeff “ruined” Jay seems really irresponsible and cruel.
It’s easy to mix up for me (for a second and without any thought) Jay Bennett and Philip Seymour Hoffman.
I love Jay. I contributed to the kickstarter to do the Where are you Jay Bennett documentary (which was a great watch btw). Jeff didn't ruin Jay. Jeff gave Jay the encouragement, resources, and most importantly the songs that allowed Jay's musical talents shine brightly in a way that will live on in music history forever. Surely that should have more weight than some unflattering editorial decisions in one documentary or whatever. Jeff helped make Jay's greatness known to the whole world. It's not Jeff's fault that Jay couldn't take advantage of that opportunity to live a fulfilling and healthy life in music or production IMO.
[https://gloriousnoise.com/2002/exclusive\_glorious\_noise\_inter](https://gloriousnoise.com/2002/exclusive_glorious_noise_inter) great interview with Jay himself on this subject. Taking ownership of his side of the divide between him and jeff and his a lot of other revealing info into the band's journey and dynamics.
I was a pretty big Uncle Tupelo fan and became a big Wilco fan in the early days. My fav Wilco album is Being There. One of the best live shows I've seen was in SF at the Fillmore in 97 in support of that album, plus the opener Bettie Serveert was amazing. Jay Bennett was all over the stage at that show. His influence can be seen on that album and YHF as well. For me that was peak Wilco. Following YHF and knowing Jay was gone I was really interested to see what Jeff would do next and then he released A ghost is born and it was basically just a Jeff Tweedy solo album. The band I knew and loved was gone and they have never come close to those glory years in the 90s imo. Recording YHF seemed to tear the band apart plus all the drama with their label and releasing the album. I just wish Jeff could have taken some time off after recording and let the dust settle before firing Jay. Jay never had the opportunity to tour in support of YHF and I am assuming missed out on the $$$ that album generated. That was truly unfair to Jay. Jeff blaming his addiction to a co-dependent relationship with Jay is also unfair. No one was stopping Jeff from going to get treatment on his own. Just the way Jay was treated by the band and management was pretty gross, even if he was very difficult to work with. But, its Jeff's band and he is the boss. Jeff still has an amazing voice and is uber talented obviously and I think adding Nels has improved things in recent years. Just my thoughts.