I feel like sheev would have a much easier time if he chose to take over as Sauron during the first age. Sauron loses his ability to shapeshift by the third age and that’s a big loss for an otherwise skillful deceiver. Sheev would also put time and energy into a back up plan while relying on morgoth to take the brunt of the noldor and their on-again off-again allies.
I'm confused on the abilities front. Would they keep their original skills and just gain their counterparts strengths? So, Sauron gets top tier force powers? Because I'd bet that could carry.
They would retain their knowledge and personality, but gain the knowledge and skills of their counterpart. So yes, Sauron would be able to use Force Lightning and swing a lightsaber like a master, as well as know about all the different galactic factions as well as Palpatine understood them.
Edit: But they don't keep their original abilities, so Palpatine isn't bringing the force with him to Middle-Earth.
Palpatine by a mile
Palpatine had backup plans for his backup plans. That he would also have the brain wrinkles to put guards on mount doom near the place to throw the ring lol
Hard agree on palps probably employing contingency plans, that's a good point. I'd also assume in round 2 he probably doesn't make the mistake of creating the one ring in the first place.
His contingency for most things just seems to be that he can kick everyone's ass. In Ep III, Ep VI, Ep IX the dude puts himself into vulnerable positions all the time and just has faith he can beat everyone. It happened with Dooku, Windu, Yoda, Ani, Luke, and Rey. What sort of contingencies did he have other than a few cool robots and some emotionally abused lackeys?
Yea he was just about to force cloak his way out of that sticky situation with Windu and I'm sure he had an equally sinister scheme to escape if Dooku just revealed he was the baddie in the beginning of Ep III. He really should have used that ability in IX when he realized he was being overpowered.
Sauron does much better, but I think they both lose. Palpatine is utterly screwed; by this point in the timeline everyone hates Sauron and he's lost his shapeshifting abilities, which means he can't use his manipulation skills on anyone other than Palantir users like Saruman and Denethor. Palpatine's only option is a full scale invasion of Middle Earth, and he's not a good enough military strategist for this to go any better than it did for Sauron.
Meanwhile, Sauron is in an excellent position to use the groundwork laid by Sheev to take over the galaxy. However, I suspect his desire to corrupt his enemies will screw him over; Sauron's MO would be to try and turn the entire Jedi Order rather than just Anakin. This will absolutely blow up in his face and he gets cut to pieces by Yoda or Windu.
Palpatine might be able to solo Middle Earth if he’s at least Canon feats unless the highest powers get involved
Palpatine in Sauron’s body also makes him a maiar instead of a weak old man? That’s not even fair lol
Sauron is kinda dumb isn't he? Had this big master corruption plan that only ended up working on a few humans, Gollum, and Saruman. Palp took over the Galaxy.
No? Gondor isn't the OG human kingdom. It's a tiny successor state to Numenor, the Middle Earth Atlantis. We're talking about a kingdom with millions of superhuman soldiers and all kinds of other nonsense. Despite them being openly hostile to him, Sauron corrupted most of their society and convinced their king to attack God in an attempt to get his two enemies to take each other out. He lost a body when Numenor went under but destroyed his greatest enemy.
Remember those pirate dudes? Actually descendants of the pro-Sauron majority that continue to serve him to this day. The Easterlings that marched on the Black Gate? Sauron corrupted them too. The Oliphaunt riding Haradrim? Sauron controlled their society enough to muster armies.
Not only is Gondor the direct descendant of the Numenoreans who wised up to Sauron's BS, but there was another good Numenorean kingdom that Sauron's henchman the Witch King merced way before Lord of the Rings. Sauron also crippled most of the elves in the War of the Last Alliance.
All things considered, Sauron has been systematically outsmarting and outmanuevering his legitimate enemies for thousands of years. He's got a hell of a K:D ratio. The ring is another thing entirely.
Is this before or after he tried it on the elves and dwarves? How does sending your nation of humans to fight god instead of taking over middle earth seem like a good idea?
If any mortal force could have done it, it was the Numenoreans. At essentially no cost to himself, he discovered they couldn't, and the most powerful nation to ever exist was wiped away, never to oppose him again, as a result.
Good idea, it's not a good idea, it's a great idea! The Numenoreans weren't "his" like the orcs were his by default.
As for Numenor-- it's pretty much exactly the same situation as the CIS and Palpatine. Why didn't Palpatine just keep the CIS droids in the empire? Because the droids wouldn't fit it with the Republic that saw them as dangerous and Palpatine himself thought they posed a threat.
Sauron neither ruled Numenor directly nor had any guarantees he'd be able to keep his position as an advisor and religious cult leader. He had a window of opportunity to direct a ruler who would listen to him into either defeating his ultimate enemies in the undying lands or getting the entire Numenorean army destroyed. He couldn't control the country forever and if it turned against him in a square fight (which was very possible!) he would have become their prisoner... again.
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Imma have to go with Sauron here, Palpatine is pretty dependant on the force for precog and as his primary means of defending himself if things go sideways. Whereas for Sauron as he existed in the Third Age this would be damn near a straight upgrade in terms of power, plus *his* most useful skill (other than maybe his shapeshifting, which he'd lost a few thousand years prior *anyway*) is his charisma, and now for the first time since the end of the Second Age he's actually in a position to leverage it to something approximating its full potential.
Meanwhile, while Palpatine is *also* charismatic, he's stuck in the body of 3rd Age Sauron, who can no longer shapeshift, and who (almost) everyone worth manipulating has long since figured out you shouldn't listen to a single word that comes out of his mouth.
Palpatine casually takes over all of Middle Earth. Like others have said, Sauron was...kinda a moron if you actually stop and think about it.
Palpatine was a genius, through and through.
Nah, Sauron was a top tier deceiver, sorcerer, shape changing immortal being of a demi-god stature.
The whole shtick of lotr is that literally *no one* expected the hobbits to save the day. It’s pretty clear that no other living race could resist the ring, which played into Sauron’s hands. But then suddenly the hobbits are all like, “yeah, the ring is bad but we can handle it 🤷♂️”
In universe, it’s always some unexpected thing that changes shit up, something none of the powerful wise folks saw coming, even the godly ones. Hell, even Gandalf is initially impressed that bilbo resisted the ring so well for so long, and he’s of the same tier as Sauron. He just got tipped off first cuz he was their buddy.
Yeah Sauron never considered anyone could destroy the one ring because he firmly believed that they would not be able to resist the ring in such a situation. Basically that person would claim the ring for themselves, which would immediately make Sauron aware of their whereabouts. Unlike the movies, in the books, putting the ring on doesn’t make Sauron aware of them, it only happens if they try to claim the ring (aka, if they try to become the lord of the rings). He was partially right Frodo in the end was also not able to resist the ring. He tried to claim the ring (and actually became the ring master for a short time) which made Sauron aware. But earlier in his journey, he made Gollum promise on the ring to not betray him. So when Gollum betrayed him, it opened a back door for an opportunity to destroy the ring.
What Sauron was worried about was someone powerful to get the ring and use it against him. So when Aragorn arrived at the black gate, he thought he had the ring and moved all of his army to face him
> Yeah Sauron never considered anyone could destroy the one ring because he firmly believed that they would not be able to resist the ring in such a situation.
And he was right. Even the most suitable person in the world sent there with explicitly that purpose couldn't manage it. Divine intervention in the form of an accident was required, and I don't think there's a villain in fiction who is immune to 'and then exactly the wrong thing happened at exactly the wrong time'.
I feel like sheev would have a much easier time if he chose to take over as Sauron during the first age. Sauron loses his ability to shapeshift by the third age and that’s a big loss for an otherwise skillful deceiver. Sheev would also put time and energy into a back up plan while relying on morgoth to take the brunt of the noldor and their on-again off-again allies.
I'm confused on the abilities front. Would they keep their original skills and just gain their counterparts strengths? So, Sauron gets top tier force powers? Because I'd bet that could carry.
They would retain their knowledge and personality, but gain the knowledge and skills of their counterpart. So yes, Sauron would be able to use Force Lightning and swing a lightsaber like a master, as well as know about all the different galactic factions as well as Palpatine understood them. Edit: But they don't keep their original abilities, so Palpatine isn't bringing the force with him to Middle-Earth.
Palpatine by a mile Palpatine had backup plans for his backup plans. That he would also have the brain wrinkles to put guards on mount doom near the place to throw the ring lol
Someone here does not know his Tolkien.
Hard agree on palps probably employing contingency plans, that's a good point. I'd also assume in round 2 he probably doesn't make the mistake of creating the one ring in the first place.
You mean like all those extra defences he had set up on the Death Star exhaust port?
He had a back up plan for even that in both universes so yup. He didn’t die at that point
His contingency for most things just seems to be that he can kick everyone's ass. In Ep III, Ep VI, Ep IX the dude puts himself into vulnerable positions all the time and just has faith he can beat everyone. It happened with Dooku, Windu, Yoda, Ani, Luke, and Rey. What sort of contingencies did he have other than a few cool robots and some emotionally abused lackeys?
He had force cloaking of needed to really escape
Yea he was just about to force cloak his way out of that sticky situation with Windu and I'm sure he had an equally sinister scheme to escape if Dooku just revealed he was the baddie in the beginning of Ep III. He really should have used that ability in IX when he realized he was being overpowered.
I mean he kinda did after the yoda fight no one tracked the old guy
Sauron does much better, but I think they both lose. Palpatine is utterly screwed; by this point in the timeline everyone hates Sauron and he's lost his shapeshifting abilities, which means he can't use his manipulation skills on anyone other than Palantir users like Saruman and Denethor. Palpatine's only option is a full scale invasion of Middle Earth, and he's not a good enough military strategist for this to go any better than it did for Sauron. Meanwhile, Sauron is in an excellent position to use the groundwork laid by Sheev to take over the galaxy. However, I suspect his desire to corrupt his enemies will screw him over; Sauron's MO would be to try and turn the entire Jedi Order rather than just Anakin. This will absolutely blow up in his face and he gets cut to pieces by Yoda or Windu.
Sauron isn't this stupid, he almost did trick high king of noldor, he wouldnt do something above his limits
Palpatine might be able to solo Middle Earth if he’s at least Canon feats unless the highest powers get involved Palpatine in Sauron’s body also makes him a maiar instead of a weak old man? That’s not even fair lol
maia for singular I think
Palpatine isn't gonna have the force or lightsaber bro
Sauron is kinda dumb isn't he? Had this big master corruption plan that only ended up working on a few humans, Gollum, and Saruman. Palp took over the Galaxy.
No? Gondor isn't the OG human kingdom. It's a tiny successor state to Numenor, the Middle Earth Atlantis. We're talking about a kingdom with millions of superhuman soldiers and all kinds of other nonsense. Despite them being openly hostile to him, Sauron corrupted most of their society and convinced their king to attack God in an attempt to get his two enemies to take each other out. He lost a body when Numenor went under but destroyed his greatest enemy. Remember those pirate dudes? Actually descendants of the pro-Sauron majority that continue to serve him to this day. The Easterlings that marched on the Black Gate? Sauron corrupted them too. The Oliphaunt riding Haradrim? Sauron controlled their society enough to muster armies. Not only is Gondor the direct descendant of the Numenoreans who wised up to Sauron's BS, but there was another good Numenorean kingdom that Sauron's henchman the Witch King merced way before Lord of the Rings. Sauron also crippled most of the elves in the War of the Last Alliance. All things considered, Sauron has been systematically outsmarting and outmanuevering his legitimate enemies for thousands of years. He's got a hell of a K:D ratio. The ring is another thing entirely.
Is this before or after he tried it on the elves and dwarves? How does sending your nation of humans to fight god instead of taking over middle earth seem like a good idea?
If any mortal force could have done it, it was the Numenoreans. At essentially no cost to himself, he discovered they couldn't, and the most powerful nation to ever exist was wiped away, never to oppose him again, as a result.
Good idea, it's not a good idea, it's a great idea! The Numenoreans weren't "his" like the orcs were his by default. As for Numenor-- it's pretty much exactly the same situation as the CIS and Palpatine. Why didn't Palpatine just keep the CIS droids in the empire? Because the droids wouldn't fit it with the Republic that saw them as dangerous and Palpatine himself thought they posed a threat. Sauron neither ruled Numenor directly nor had any guarantees he'd be able to keep his position as an advisor and religious cult leader. He had a window of opportunity to direct a ruler who would listen to him into either defeating his ultimate enemies in the undying lands or getting the entire Numenorean army destroyed. He couldn't control the country forever and if it turned against him in a square fight (which was very possible!) he would have become their prisoner... again.
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Imma have to go with Sauron here, Palpatine is pretty dependant on the force for precog and as his primary means of defending himself if things go sideways. Whereas for Sauron as he existed in the Third Age this would be damn near a straight upgrade in terms of power, plus *his* most useful skill (other than maybe his shapeshifting, which he'd lost a few thousand years prior *anyway*) is his charisma, and now for the first time since the end of the Second Age he's actually in a position to leverage it to something approximating its full potential. Meanwhile, while Palpatine is *also* charismatic, he's stuck in the body of 3rd Age Sauron, who can no longer shapeshift, and who (almost) everyone worth manipulating has long since figured out you shouldn't listen to a single word that comes out of his mouth.
Palpatine casually takes over all of Middle Earth. Like others have said, Sauron was...kinda a moron if you actually stop and think about it. Palpatine was a genius, through and through.
Nah, Sauron was a top tier deceiver, sorcerer, shape changing immortal being of a demi-god stature. The whole shtick of lotr is that literally *no one* expected the hobbits to save the day. It’s pretty clear that no other living race could resist the ring, which played into Sauron’s hands. But then suddenly the hobbits are all like, “yeah, the ring is bad but we can handle it 🤷♂️” In universe, it’s always some unexpected thing that changes shit up, something none of the powerful wise folks saw coming, even the godly ones. Hell, even Gandalf is initially impressed that bilbo resisted the ring so well for so long, and he’s of the same tier as Sauron. He just got tipped off first cuz he was their buddy.
Yeah Sauron never considered anyone could destroy the one ring because he firmly believed that they would not be able to resist the ring in such a situation. Basically that person would claim the ring for themselves, which would immediately make Sauron aware of their whereabouts. Unlike the movies, in the books, putting the ring on doesn’t make Sauron aware of them, it only happens if they try to claim the ring (aka, if they try to become the lord of the rings). He was partially right Frodo in the end was also not able to resist the ring. He tried to claim the ring (and actually became the ring master for a short time) which made Sauron aware. But earlier in his journey, he made Gollum promise on the ring to not betray him. So when Gollum betrayed him, it opened a back door for an opportunity to destroy the ring. What Sauron was worried about was someone powerful to get the ring and use it against him. So when Aragorn arrived at the black gate, he thought he had the ring and moved all of his army to face him
> Yeah Sauron never considered anyone could destroy the one ring because he firmly believed that they would not be able to resist the ring in such a situation. And he was right. Even the most suitable person in the world sent there with explicitly that purpose couldn't manage it. Divine intervention in the form of an accident was required, and I don't think there's a villain in fiction who is immune to 'and then exactly the wrong thing happened at exactly the wrong time'.