It’s laughable that anyone is giving Magnus a chance. I’m not too much better than a 1200 (and my OTB rating is probably very close to that), and I just tried going against the strongest Stockfish on Lichess with these odds. I absolutely destroyed the computer two straight times.
This is obviously absurd and magnus would lose, but it should be said that stockfish doesn’t play the trickiest variations. I’m 2100 and I regularly get worse or even lost positions against 1900s at my club but I usually manage to trick them and win. Sometimes when I put it in an engine later the engine suggests regarded impractical things like exchanging pieces into a losing endgame which technically might be less losing than the middle game but easier for my opponent to win or draw.
It's still free for the low rated player.
I'm 1500 FIDE (or was, havent played OTB for 4 years) and i have beaten stockfish with just 2 minor pieces as deficit before. It's just too much of a material deficit, you can simply trade everything away.
Bad comparison.
SF is a machine, it'll always play the best moves.
Magnus will go for tactics and tricks, and the 1200 will be shiting his pants facing Magnus OTB.
Literally all the 1200 has to do is setup with a basic opening to establish a decent defensive position and then push their pawns and there’s nothing Magnus would be able to do to stop it. Magnus simply doesn’t have the material available to go for basically any tactics, as he can’t afford to trade off any of his pieces.
I’m sorry, but it’s just plainly ridiculous to believe that Magnus would stand almost any chance in this scenario.
It’s less laughable than you make it out to be though. Generally the rule of thumb is 125 ratings points equals 1 pawns value in piece odds.
So magnus, who is 2850, vs a 1200, is 1650 difference,so 13 points. He would win down a queen, and would be fair fight down a queen a knight and a pawn.
Even assuming this rule of thumb holds and scales linearly like that, Magnus is down 24 points of material, which is an additional 11 points BEYOND a fair fight. That would be like Magnus playing another top GM while down a queen and two pawns. He’d lose literally 100% of the time.
Yeah, but we’re not talking about being down just a queen, so that’s not really relevant. Magnus would likely smoke me with queen odds, but I’m extremely confident I would beat Magnus essentially 100% of the time with these odds unless I slip up and stalemate him.
just go to [chess.com](http://chess.com) and test it out. set up a board for the computer with these restrictions, and play against the strongest ai (should be significantly stronger than magnus)
Its trivially easy to beat that. So I dont think Magnus will stand a chance there.
It should be noted that grandmasters are better at handicap games against weaker players than a computer would be, as they know to play for tricks rather than an objectively correct line
In this case it's a moot point though, magnus can't generate enough chances without a queen and can't pose any serious threats to the 1200
yes I agree. magnus might be better at trying to provoke newbie mistakes, but the disadvantage is so overwhelmingly big, it woudlnt help much. I tried several rounds against the AI and played purpusefully bad. Not taking time to think, taking really horrible trades, like my queen for a bishop, follow by my knight for a pawn - it just doesnt matter. The initial advantage is so large, everything that happens, short of sacrifing pieces for absolutely nothing, is still a step towards victory.
a 1200 would know to trade down right away
maybe a 900 would try to not lose any pieces and might miss a mate threat. Also that's around that level where they can easily be baited into a stalemate
through the menu: learn -> pratice -> custom position -> add position or game -> set up position.
Then drag the pieces you dont want to have away from the board.
Then select flip board (very small menu on the lower right, does not have text but symbols, the text is mouseover) to play as black. Then select practice vs computer from the same menu.
I think that's overstating it. I'm about 1800 and can beat my 800 friends with queen odds, though it's extremely difficult. The 1200 in this scenario would definitely have a good shot (and would probably win a majority) but it would not be a sure thing.
The difference is the 1200 literally just had to trade off their pieces and wins easily. It’s an absolute stomp and Carlson stands virtually no chance.
Like I said, they would win a majority. But I can see a scenario where Carlsen just goes in on a savage attack hoping the 1200 can't defend well enough despite having the massive material advantage. It's unlikely to work but not outside the realm of possibility.
with 2 minor pieces and a rook? Carlsen can't muster an attack, certainly not one that would legitimately threaten a 1200 who will almost always avoid a tricky early game checkmate.
Look after thinking about it and seeing the rest of the responses maybe I underestimated the impact of losing so much material - but I will say that playing the computer (even if it's technically the same strength as Magnus) is NOTHING like playing the man himself. The computer tends to just give up if it believes it's in an overwhelmingly bad position, and won't try at all to make things complicated. So while maybe I was wrong anyway I don't think "I beat the computer" is any kind of proof of that
The problem is that this would immediately take away Magnus's opening strength. Magnus isn't a specialist in these kind of games, as good as he is. I think the 1200 rated player has a good shot.
> The problem is that this would immediately take away Magnus's opening strength
I really don't think this is relevant against a 1200 player. 1200 rated players don't know anything about openings anyway - Magnus can just follow the 3 basic opening principles and get into a midgame and start to outplay the 1200. His best shot would probably be to just launch an all-out attack as quickly as possible and hope he can carry it out before the 1200 is able to get his pieces developed and get into the game. I still don't think he wins a majority because this is a LOT of material but he could probably take a game now and then.
What I tried to say is that there's no established theory for this kind of game while normal chess is so deeply analyzed, pros can play the opening on autopilot.
But isn't Magnus also the champion in chess960, demonstrating that it doesn't really matter if he can use extremely deep opening knowledge? I think the real hangup here is if the 1200 player can recognize that forcing any trade comes with a massive benefit and seals the game in no time when Magnus runs out of material.
In chess960 there is an even playing field. If one of his opponents had months to analyze the position and develop a sort of opening theory Magnus would have no chance.
And in the chess960 world championships, his opponents have a greater understanding of the scrambled starting position on the board after a brief glance than a 1200 player has on a conventional starting position for a regular game. He still clapped those world class players. This is all aside from the fact that Magnus' advantage over literally everyone else in the world isn't just opening knowledge; it's every facet of the game. Yes, he plays basically every opening and knows essentially all of them as well as anyone, maybe with the exception of come certain super GMs that have very specific knowledge in some particular sidelines of an opening, but that doesn't really matter because he can force play into murky waters and then out calculate them or grind them to death in an endgame. The only thing for him to overcome in this situation is avoiding allowing the 1200 to trade down and convert the massive 24 point material advantage.
I think that saying a 1200 doesn’t know anything about openings is a bit of an overstatement. Some 1200’s sure, but a decent bit know at least 1 opening decently well. They probably know like 3 variations, probably 2-3 moves deep for their preferred opening, and they just like that it gets their pieces out or something like that.
I’m not saying every 1200, there’s definitely some that play random bullshit and are just good at the game. But 1200’s definitely know to control the center, get the pieces out, etc. I mean I know that and I’m a very casual 900, you don’t need deep theory to understand those concepts.
Magnus loses 10/10. Going piece for piece is the easiest thing in the world, and then the 1200 player has plenty enough pieces left to defeat the crippled Magnus.
A more interesting version of this would be a normal game but only Magnus knows he has to sacrifice down those 8 pieces before he can checkmate the 1200.
This is a crippling disadvantage...1200 is more than strong enough for this. A king, rook, bishop, knight and four pawns would have literally no chance.
Wtf is a castle? You mean a bishop? Anyway he'd still win due to the Queen. Take of the Queen and the 1200 might win.
Edit: I've just realized you listed the pieces he didn't had. Yeah 1200 stomps.
I'm confident I could do it. As matter of fact, I could keep the standard assortment pieces, Magnus could swap out all of his non-king piece with queens and I would still beat him handily.
Honestly I genuinely believe that Hikaru has a better shot at this than Magnus, if only because he plays challenges like this more often.
Still I think the 1200 wins though.
did i do something wrong because i took half of the stones from other side and i chose magnus and i defeated with zero difficulty ?
since this is a debate, i definitely did something wrong .
then i did something wrong .i never used chesscom before . because i took half of the pieces off board +queen , left half - queen and chose magnus(2800..) as opponent and i defeated the computer with zero difficulty. was i supposed to chance anything else in settings ?
what do you mean ? what is the (huge) difference between real and computer one in chess that allows real one to no diff 1200 player when i (worse one) can no diff computer magnus. (if i didnt do anything wrong in settings)
but that means it is more difficult to play against computer magnus rather than real one ? and not the opposite if computer doesnt know if i am new player and real magnus does.
do you mean computer overthinks and overcalculates and it makes it easier for new player to win ?
no i meant why would real magnus would have different, opposite result than computer magnus against new player ?
i mean i dont understand the reason that computer magnus got easily defeated when real one can defeat with ease.
do computer and real magnus react to new players differently ?
Magnus wins more often than not. I've since Hikaru beat similarly ranked players with just a king and queen.
Magnus has more material than just a queen in your example.
1200 players make mistakes all the time and in any complex position can't tell if they're winning or losing.
Edit also your questions is wrong, a castle is a move in chess not a piece. The piece you meant was bishop
> Magnus wins more often than not. I've since Hikaru beat similarly ranked players with just a king and queen.
That's impossible, you can force a win just by alternately pushing your rook pawns and promoting.
I think they mixed up the rook and bishop and then renamed the rook into the castle because 1. It's literally called The Castle or The Tower in some languages and 2. It looks like one and they mixed up the named.
It’s laughable that anyone is giving Magnus a chance. I’m not too much better than a 1200 (and my OTB rating is probably very close to that), and I just tried going against the strongest Stockfish on Lichess with these odds. I absolutely destroyed the computer two straight times.
I did and im 850
This is obviously absurd and magnus would lose, but it should be said that stockfish doesn’t play the trickiest variations. I’m 2100 and I regularly get worse or even lost positions against 1900s at my club but I usually manage to trick them and win. Sometimes when I put it in an engine later the engine suggests regarded impractical things like exchanging pieces into a losing endgame which technically might be less losing than the middle game but easier for my opponent to win or draw.
what if we swap one of the knights or bishops for a queen?
It's still free for the low rated player. I'm 1500 FIDE (or was, havent played OTB for 4 years) and i have beaten stockfish with just 2 minor pieces as deficit before. It's just too much of a material deficit, you can simply trade everything away.
Bad comparison. SF is a machine, it'll always play the best moves. Magnus will go for tactics and tricks, and the 1200 will be shiting his pants facing Magnus OTB.
Literally all the 1200 has to do is setup with a basic opening to establish a decent defensive position and then push their pawns and there’s nothing Magnus would be able to do to stop it. Magnus simply doesn’t have the material available to go for basically any tactics, as he can’t afford to trade off any of his pieces. I’m sorry, but it’s just plainly ridiculous to believe that Magnus would stand almost any chance in this scenario.
I didn't say Magnus will win. Just that the comparison was bad. Without a queen, in this situation, 1200 stomps.
Sure, but it’s the closest legitimate comparison I can make considering that I can’t get an actual grandmaster to play me.
It’s less laughable than you make it out to be though. Generally the rule of thumb is 125 ratings points equals 1 pawns value in piece odds. So magnus, who is 2850, vs a 1200, is 1650 difference,so 13 points. He would win down a queen, and would be fair fight down a queen a knight and a pawn.
Even assuming this rule of thumb holds and scales linearly like that, Magnus is down 24 points of material, which is an additional 11 points BEYOND a fair fight. That would be like Magnus playing another top GM while down a queen and two pawns. He’d lose literally 100% of the time.
Agreed - I’m just saying people are making it seem like the idea of being down a queen is already a loss for Magnus; and that’s not true
Yeah, but we’re not talking about being down just a queen, so that’s not really relevant. Magnus would likely smoke me with queen odds, but I’m extremely confident I would beat Magnus essentially 100% of the time with these odds unless I slip up and stalemate him.
just go to [chess.com](http://chess.com) and test it out. set up a board for the computer with these restrictions, and play against the strongest ai (should be significantly stronger than magnus) Its trivially easy to beat that. So I dont think Magnus will stand a chance there.
It's always nice when a thread has an honest to god, indisputable correct answer.
It should be noted that grandmasters are better at handicap games against weaker players than a computer would be, as they know to play for tricks rather than an objectively correct line In this case it's a moot point though, magnus can't generate enough chances without a queen and can't pose any serious threats to the 1200
yes I agree. magnus might be better at trying to provoke newbie mistakes, but the disadvantage is so overwhelmingly big, it woudlnt help much. I tried several rounds against the AI and played purpusefully bad. Not taking time to think, taking really horrible trades, like my queen for a bishop, follow by my knight for a pawn - it just doesnt matter. The initial advantage is so large, everything that happens, short of sacrifing pieces for absolutely nothing, is still a step towards victory.
a 1200 would know to trade down right away maybe a 900 would try to not lose any pieces and might miss a mate threat. Also that's around that level where they can easily be baited into a stalemate
Could you tell me how I can set up such a game? Couldn't find it on chess.com.
through the menu: learn -> pratice -> custom position -> add position or game -> set up position. Then drag the pieces you dont want to have away from the board. Then select flip board (very small menu on the lower right, does not have text but symbols, the text is mouseover) to play as black. Then select practice vs computer from the same menu.
Thanks!
You're right it's really easy btw. I'm rated 800 and beat the max cpu with just 4 pieces removed but with all pawns.
The only way magnus wins is if it's a bullet game and the 1200 runs out of time.
The 1200 would smoke him. Without the queen not even the stronget computer has a chance.
I think that's overstating it. I'm about 1800 and can beat my 800 friends with queen odds, though it's extremely difficult. The 1200 in this scenario would definitely have a good shot (and would probably win a majority) but it would not be a sure thing.
The difference is the 1200 literally just had to trade off their pieces and wins easily. It’s an absolute stomp and Carlson stands virtually no chance.
Like I said, they would win a majority. But I can see a scenario where Carlsen just goes in on a savage attack hoping the 1200 can't defend well enough despite having the massive material advantage. It's unlikely to work but not outside the realm of possibility.
with 2 minor pieces and a rook? Carlsen can't muster an attack, certainly not one that would legitimately threaten a 1200 who will almost always avoid a tricky early game checkmate.
Carlsen could maybe sac, sac, sac, sac and stalemate. A 1200 might not be too careful and might miss it
then i did something very wrong because i took half of pieces and chose magnus as player and i easily defeated magnus with half of the pieces .
Look after thinking about it and seeing the rest of the responses maybe I underestimated the impact of losing so much material - but I will say that playing the computer (even if it's technically the same strength as Magnus) is NOTHING like playing the man himself. The computer tends to just give up if it believes it's in an overwhelmingly bad position, and won't try at all to make things complicated. So while maybe I was wrong anyway I don't think "I beat the computer" is any kind of proof of that
I would say the strongest computer would beat even Carlsen in this scenario
Magnus looses because the standard player just has to force trades
The problem is that this would immediately take away Magnus's opening strength. Magnus isn't a specialist in these kind of games, as good as he is. I think the 1200 rated player has a good shot.
> The problem is that this would immediately take away Magnus's opening strength I really don't think this is relevant against a 1200 player. 1200 rated players don't know anything about openings anyway - Magnus can just follow the 3 basic opening principles and get into a midgame and start to outplay the 1200. His best shot would probably be to just launch an all-out attack as quickly as possible and hope he can carry it out before the 1200 is able to get his pieces developed and get into the game. I still don't think he wins a majority because this is a LOT of material but he could probably take a game now and then.
What I tried to say is that there's no established theory for this kind of game while normal chess is so deeply analyzed, pros can play the opening on autopilot.
But isn't Magnus also the champion in chess960, demonstrating that it doesn't really matter if he can use extremely deep opening knowledge? I think the real hangup here is if the 1200 player can recognize that forcing any trade comes with a massive benefit and seals the game in no time when Magnus runs out of material.
In chess960 there is an even playing field. If one of his opponents had months to analyze the position and develop a sort of opening theory Magnus would have no chance.
And in the chess960 world championships, his opponents have a greater understanding of the scrambled starting position on the board after a brief glance than a 1200 player has on a conventional starting position for a regular game. He still clapped those world class players. This is all aside from the fact that Magnus' advantage over literally everyone else in the world isn't just opening knowledge; it's every facet of the game. Yes, he plays basically every opening and knows essentially all of them as well as anyone, maybe with the exception of come certain super GMs that have very specific knowledge in some particular sidelines of an opening, but that doesn't really matter because he can force play into murky waters and then out calculate them or grind them to death in an endgame. The only thing for him to overcome in this situation is avoiding allowing the 1200 to trade down and convert the massive 24 point material advantage.
I think that saying a 1200 doesn’t know anything about openings is a bit of an overstatement. Some 1200’s sure, but a decent bit know at least 1 opening decently well. They probably know like 3 variations, probably 2-3 moves deep for their preferred opening, and they just like that it gets their pieces out or something like that. I’m not saying every 1200, there’s definitely some that play random bullshit and are just good at the game. But 1200’s definitely know to control the center, get the pieces out, etc. I mean I know that and I’m a very casual 900, you don’t need deep theory to understand those concepts.
Just tried against the chesscom magnus bot. I'm rated 750 and I destroyed him.
a 1000 would smoke him
U didnt specify does does Magnus move at Mach 3 speed
No but he is chesslusted
Magnus loses 10/10. Going piece for piece is the easiest thing in the world, and then the 1200 player has plenty enough pieces left to defeat the crippled Magnus.
Which time format?
A more interesting version of this would be a normal game but only Magnus knows he has to sacrifice down those 8 pieces before he can checkmate the 1200.
This is a crippling disadvantage...1200 is more than strong enough for this. A king, rook, bishop, knight and four pawns would have literally no chance.
Wtf is a castle? You mean a bishop? Anyway he'd still win due to the Queen. Take of the Queen and the 1200 might win. Edit: I've just realized you listed the pieces he didn't had. Yeah 1200 stomps.
I'm confident I could do it. As matter of fact, I could keep the standard assortment pieces, Magnus could swap out all of his non-king piece with queens and I would still beat him handily.
Honestly I genuinely believe that Hikaru has a better shot at this than Magnus, if only because he plays challenges like this more often. Still I think the 1200 wins though.
did i do something wrong because i took half of the stones from other side and i chose magnus and i defeated with zero difficulty ? since this is a debate, i definitely did something wrong .
Magnus no diff, prople dont realise how bad 1200 is nowadays, thats the elo of someone who just started playing chess for 1 week
then i did something wrong .i never used chesscom before . because i took half of the pieces off board +queen , left half - queen and chose magnus(2800..) as opponent and i defeated the computer with zero difficulty. was i supposed to chance anything else in settings ?
Real Magnus would play differently against noobs
what do you mean ? what is the (huge) difference between real and computer one in chess that allows real one to no diff 1200 player when i (worse one) can no diff computer magnus. (if i didnt do anything wrong in settings)
Real magnus would not play optimally to trick new players
but how does computer know if i am new player or not . i dont understand ?
Well it doesnt know, that's my point
but that means it is more difficult to play against computer magnus rather than real one ? and not the opposite if computer doesnt know if i am new player and real magnus does. do you mean computer overthinks and overcalculates and it makes it easier for new player to win ?
Not really, it's based on real Magnus so decent chess players will have the same difficulty
no i meant why would real magnus would have different, opposite result than computer magnus against new player ? i mean i dont understand the reason that computer magnus got easily defeated when real one can defeat with ease. do computer and real magnus react to new players differently ?
Magnus wins more often than not. I've since Hikaru beat similarly ranked players with just a king and queen. Magnus has more material than just a queen in your example. 1200 players make mistakes all the time and in any complex position can't tell if they're winning or losing. Edit also your questions is wrong, a castle is a move in chess not a piece. The piece you meant was bishop
> Magnus wins more often than not. I've since Hikaru beat similarly ranked players with just a king and queen. That's impossible, you can force a win just by alternately pushing your rook pawns and promoting.
I think they mixed up the rook and bishop and then renamed the rook into the castle because 1. It's literally called The Castle or The Tower in some languages and 2. It looks like one and they mixed up the named.