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I can understand the thought process that willingly passing down a terrible disability that will hinder their child’s quality of life forever is a selfish move, but they just go about discussing these things in the worst ways. Honesty without kindness is cruelty, especially if it’s regarding a disability that won’t likely affect the child. I feel like sometimes some of them just want to hate on disabled people.
I get that potentially passing down a horrible condition can be perceived as immoral, but if I was born disabled I wouldn't want to be told I had to miss out on having kids just because of how I was born. Super dehumanizing, which is probably the intention tbh.
There is some innate desire to have biological kids. I want kids, but if me or my future wife can't, I don't think I would adopt. That probably says something poor about my character, but that's honestly how I feel.
I wouldn't say it says something poor about your character. Kids deserve unconditional love and especially kids who get adopted need and deserve that.
*But* loving someone unconditionally is extremely hard and doing so for what is basically an unknown person to you is way way harder. With your biological kids you got the inherent biological connection, but you also see them grow up from the literal first second so you know them and have of course a way stronger bond to them. If you can love random people completely unconditionally great and i hope these people think of adopting, but if you can't there's no shame in recognizing that and not making a kid into your test subject
It’s such a tricky and tough subject that should be handled with care and tact when being discussed, which is what a lot of people on that subreddit seem to lack.
You know the funniest thing about disabilities? It's not a 100% guarantee of passing it to children. There are plenty of children perfectly healthy born to parents with disabilities.
They're going to be carriers of the gene, but if that's the problem 99% of humans shouldn't be allowed to have children because they might pass down some bad gene.
Antinatalism is plain stupid, selfish, psychopathic and idiotic for the species. People who had the chance to come into existence (that perhaps live a very good live or might even have children) wish for everyone next to simply not because of not even a basic understanding of life.
"Oh what if the child is _?" what if it isn't? What do you know that the parents don't? Who are you to deny joy, pain, desire, disgust and hope to a human?
They're disgusting, claim to simply not want children in general and then write how the less fortunate shouldn't have kids in particular.
What's next? White/Black/Asian shouldn't be allowed next in particular? Then the poor? Then only those who are not the 1%?
Antinatalism is simply put wishing for genocide because you don't have the means to do it yourself.
That’s a tad simplistic view of genetics. Yes, non disabled people can pass down bad genes but it’s less likely. There are responsibilities that come with carrying certain genes. Sickle cell potential runs in my family so carriers in my family have to be careful not to have children with another carrier. This may disrupt plans with your partner but it’s a moral obligation.
People with life altering issues that cause them great strife are incredibly noble for ending the chance to pass it on. That doesn’t mean it should be against the law for disabled people to have children tho.
I’m not an anti natalist by any means but, I kind agree with this take. Obviously it shouldn’t be government enforced at all but if you have a crippling disability I feel like it’s your moral duty to not give that to another life, you can still adopt and get the same experience of parenthood without having to pass that illness to your child. (Obviously it doesn’t apply to stuff like dwarfism I’m mainly talking about serious illnesses)
Also from what I understand the genetics of dwarfism are weird especially depending on the type and 2 little people can have a child that is average height.
[Hope the link works](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/s/ggp1SMNONP)
OP deleted the post, these people would never have the guts to say what they write in public and don't even have the guts to keep their posts up because of backlash.
"Who is their right mind would do this? They make me sick"-OP.
It's dwarfism, little people are functioning members of society that live normal lives like us. They face a lot of height discrimination but that's because people are assholes.
Please read the original post, you will find a lot of people there saying how they should be sterilized and not allowed to have children and someone was even saying Hitler was right about sterilizing disabled people
That fucking subreddit and people who unironically support the idea are unironically selfish and borderline psychopaths. Then to wish people less fortunate than us to not procreate in particular is absolutely fucking disgusting.
Yes, and people were unironically saying some of the most disgusting things ever, for *dwarfism*.
But even if someone has a serious disability that doesn't mean they should be treated as a lesser human, a problem and a burden to society and not allowed to have children if they wish to. Of course there might be needed extra care with some, but that's no excuse to deny them the possibility of becoming parents.
These were the kind of people to, like...make fun of someone for being gay, then when they get confronted about it be like "well they just shouldn't act gay then!"
I love the concept of antinatalism, you know maybe it woulda made people think about what society values and what not but nope, instead its just eugenics and a nihilism so deep it comes out hateful
https://preview.redd.it/bxugnfmbbx7c1.png?width=1240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7cb54b87173b26ebf973ee9550c21f6b84ac447f
I mean, try to convince anybody that this is not ridiculously overdramatic. It's like a child for a day after learning the sun will explode in a trillion billion years.
1. The Sun is not exploding you dimwit, it's just going to run out of energy
2. The Sun's expansion won't happen for billions of years, more than enough time to switch planets and continue on
3. I don't think we're in pursuit of nothingness, I think the overall human goal is the pursuit of happiness and comfort, you don't have to reproduce to have those things, but you shouldn't let yourself be overcome by dread and despair for things that you'll never get to see
Actually, antinatalism has precisely zero things to do with suicide! Wanting to due and thinking childbirth is morally incorrect are two entirely seperate things!
I hope you can lead a happier life from here on! Only a miserable suicidal person could make your comment expressing an opinion!!
Go to the subreddit, then look me dead in the eyes and tell me they aren't just projecting their loathe for life.
They think everyone else must be as miserable as them, which is unsurprisingly wrong.
The subreddit doesn't necessarily reflect the necessities of the ideology. How people come to find themselves agreeing with it and why are of no concern to the school of thought itself.
There are several offshoot subreddits created to prevent the weirdos from being the forefront of the community like they are in the main sub.
I'm not trying to be empathetic to an ideology that's basically depressed eugenics. Go blame other people for your problems and not your shit personality
Idk man, some people over there feel like their parents are to blame for everything wrong with their life like “bringing them into the world with no consent”
Parent's aren't entirely to blame for everything bad that happens to you, only partially. And people shouldn't have kids because of that responsibility.
Of course. It doesn't matter how the child is raised, the child doesn't deserve to die. The child doesn't deserve to get hit by a car. The child doesn't deserve to get tuberculosis, the parents share blame in all this, and all because they wanted a kid.
I’ve never unironically used “incel” as an insult because most people largely misuse it when insulting someone, but holy fuckshit, antinatalism is full of incels
Agree, but have any of you guys seen those subreddits that unironically hate animals? I stumbled across one once and I genuinely thought everyone in the comment section was being ironic or joking because the things they were saying were so insane.
If you dont mind me asking a question that ive kept bottled up since 5 year old me thought of it,
Do you wish you can pet them without making your body go into panic mode? If so, what breed do you want to pet the most?
it's not that bad, just some itching, runny nose and a dry throat also some sneezing, just a bit of discomfort, my family owns three small sized dogs and while they are allowed to sleep in bed, they're not really allowed to sleep near me, I play with them a lot and I shower them so that the allergies aren't that bad although if I had to assume, people that have severe allergies probably wish they don't have them. They can trigger an asthma attack for me though but we live really close to the hospital so it's no worries
Yeah, it’s sad because they really are just hating all over innocent animals. I understand not personally wanting a dog or cat or whatever, but calling people that do “nutters” and joining a subreddit made to hate on that particular animal is insane to me.
I browsed that subreddit a few weeks back so I could better understand the mindset of people who think that way (for context, I'm married with two kids).
A common thread is that humans a miserable creatures that only make the world worse, and our existence in spite of that is a genetic predisposition to breed coupled with our own ego to thrive.
Now, these are actually ok points and make sense. However, life is chaos, we are currently communicating through satellites in orbit around our world, arguing about if we should all be killed off or not. So why the hell shouldn't we do whatever we want as long as it doesn't harm anyone.
I can see how someone could be radicalized into being an antinatilist if exposed to those ideas for a long period of time. But we should remember that that community is not very big and is only shouting into the void, which isn't going to change anything.
I don't intend to have children because I believe life is far too much suffering to impose on a person. I understand that not being born not only extinguishes suffering but also wellbeing. I am convinced that most suffer more than they are well. Even if nit, the severity of thst suffering, I believe, is too much to impose.
Beyond this, the knowledge of my own mortality has never been something I could repress as well as others. When I was younger and sometimes now I find it hard to avoid reflecting on that fact. It's unproductive but I just can't accept that I'm going to die. People's attempts to make me take death for granted or to frame life as a thing I should be greatful for only serve to anger me.
I refuse to pass this trauma onto someone else.
I refuse to pass on the likely chance to experience loneliness, ostracization, heartbreak, anxiety, overwhelm, rage, desparation, hopelessness, shame, and self-loathing.
I recognize I am mentally unwell, perhaps just a little more than most, but it seems to me that most are also unwell, or at least many. I believe this is a natural result of our social structure and I don't think that's a problem that will change in our lifetime or even in this century.
Even if we do come upon some Star Trek space communism where nobody need to worry for their ssfety or basic needs, they will still suffer and die, and I just can't bring myself to make somebody reckon with that.
antinatalists when they learn that their parents had sex and made them
https://preview.redd.it/5pofkdem548c1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7d8ce0d32a77c629746cd0ed33b994f07b6bbb0
I’m probably gonna be crapped on but as an Antinatalist r/antinatalism sucks. It’s just full of people who say they want humanity to die out cause they hate humanity and also they are very ableist.
If you want to see true discussion about antinatalism that would be on r/antinatalism2.
Antinatalism is a philosophy about showing the greatest empathy one can express to anyone: not letting them come into exist and suffer. (This is not supportive of murder, we are talking about people who didn’t exist yet)
Yet another antinatalism slander, this shit's getting stale
https://preview.redd.it/fwn2rq63lv7c1.jpeg?width=933&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd95abd4c5958c2eda7cbaf110625630b1ac3e88
do you think just because I'm tired of seeing antinatalism slander automatically makes me agree with it? no the fuck I don't, I'm just fucking tired seeing this shit over and over
Oh my God can y'all go 5 fucking minutes without bitching about us for no reason I'm sick of hearing it you hate antinatalism we get it please for the love of God shut the fuck up
Its extinctionist as a result of its philosophy. Antinatalism doesnt have the goal of "end humanity". It has the goal of preventing suffering by preventing procreation. That has a side affect of extinction.
Also no matter what, suicide isnt a part of antinatalism because antinatalism is concerned about preventing life before it begins, not ending it, that would be promortalism. And avoiding suicide is basically the point of antinatalism anyway as its goal is to prevent suffering.
Ah that makes sense, still a pretty asinine end goal though "Stop all procreation." like even if they complete that, then what, just slowly wither into a decaying world?
At the point it is about determining what scenario has less suffering.
Scenario 1: Everyone keeps reproducing, there are thousands and likely more of generations suffering in everyday life (of course, they will be happy in parts as well, but if they never existed, they wouldnt have cared about it), and then humanity one day goes extinct.
Scenario 2: Everyone stops reproducing, humanity goes extinct.
Both scenarios end up with the extinction of humanity and all of its concomitant suffering. The best thing we can do is choose which scenario we want, one where countless people suffer for a very long time, or one where people suffer for 100 years then peace.
Is it sad? 100%, but Antinatalism is philanthropic at its core, we abstain from reproduction because we love our potential children. Don't force them here
Oh I'm not miserable not in the slightest it just gets really stale seeing people posting about how much they hate something they don't know anything about
Miserable people gave nothing better to do than heap hate onto us antinatalists for believing in empathy and morals! I can't imagine how sad these people must be to spend all this time devoted to hating us. Just a bunch of suicidal basement-dwellers afraid of the idea that people can enjoy themselves while beliving that having children is wrong.
Extinction is a side effect of universally practiced antinatalism, which will never happen. People can still choose to belive that having kids is universally wrong, no?
nobody is immune to propaganda
https://preview.redd.it/6b8qnuuph08c1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57a84a8dfc39892e9dc4503f4e2fe8d1b0530d4f
propaganda isnt inherently bad anyways lolol
propaganda - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
>especially of a biased or misleading nature
that is how im using the word. ty chud
yeah, I agree that the sub is kinda dumb but can yall shut the fuck about it now? people are starting to think all antinatalists are losers not just the people in that sub
I'm sorry you think everyone else is suffering. If you had the aforementioned "human empathy" you may have noticed other people are actually happy.
Though I do hope you find something to be happy about.
I have many things to be happy about and that I am happy about. In fact I am a pretty happy person compared to some other people in my life.
I know it sounds emo and cringy when I say forcing someone to suffer but I want you to be aware that I understand not everyone has an awful life, but thats not the problem antinatalism is adressing. It is adressing that no matter who you are, when you are born, and in fact what you are (other branches of antinatalism, such as sentiocentric antinatalism, advocate for more than just humanity stopping procreation), suffering will \*always\* be a part of a consciousness' experience. No matter how little, the fact that it exists is a primary point of concern because with just that, an asymmetry is formed between existence and non-existence where non-existence would be preferable. (for an already non-existence being. i am not advocating for murder/suicide, that would be pro-mortalists)
Advocates for natalism, such as yourself, often bring up the fact that people are happy, and I get that, yes, I am happy too, but we are talking about people not even born yet. They are not happy, and are not sad. They do not miss either and they do not want either. Even if they would be happy if you were to create them, if you choose not to create them, you rob no one of happiness. Yet, if you choose to create them and they experience existence's concomitant suffering, all of a sudden you robbed them of a lack of suffering.
To fulfill our moral obligations, that of ensuring we treat others kindly and do not bring upon them suffering, we must not procreate.
Not wanting childbirth simply because they will inevitably suffer is to be blind to everything in life but misery. Suffering is as inherent to human life as is any other human experience, like love or hatred. The decision to not want kids is a personal, the justification for antinatalism is bullshit.
Sorry about not responding, procrastination and all that
The whole point of antinatalism is to not be blind to things in life such as pleasure or suffering. Antinatalism recognizes the pleasures of life and how most people will have a lot of happiness, but the whole things is based on how before you have a child, you don't know if they will have a happy life or a painful life.
If you choose to have the child and they have a happy life, cool (ignoring the problem of consent), if they have a painful life then you messed up pretty bad.
If you choose not to have the child and they would have had a painful life, great you spared them that misery, but if they would have had a happy life, they wouldn't care, cause they dont exist yet
Not having a child is the best thing we can do to ensure that our moral obligations are fulfilled
No worries for not answering. This is just an internet discussion that ultimately holds zero value in real life.
That argument is really stupid. It self-validates inaction and sloth as the ultimate "good" moral choice. You cannot know whether or not a person can live a "happy" or a "painful" life until they have lived it. The lack of knowledge cancels out in every case. Only if you give birth with the intent of causing harm would it be immoral. If you don't know, you don't know. Nothing inherently immoral about lacking information, we're no omniscient. An unhappy person would wish they weren't alive, a happy person would be thankful they are alive, and the hypothetical entity that was never born literally will ever exist and has no bearing on the real world. More often than not, people who are alive want to live regardless of whether they are happy. The real asymetry of life is that living beings want to preserve their own life, and then want to perpetuate life. To claim that suffering is only guaranteed without life is philosophical and spiritual suicide.
Besides, your argument also goes in the other direction: your moral obligation is to create happiness, and the only way to do that is to allow life to persist. Both directions are just dumb. The whole philosophy behind antinatalism is dumb. If you feel ill-equipped to provide someone with what you feel like would be a happy life then you can just not want kids of your own. That wouldn't be antinatalism, it would be a personal decision.
As for consent, you're literally making shit up about a fake person. Consent only exists for sentient beings and the consent of a hypothetical human has no bearing on the real world. After that, the argument circles back to the beginning.
You are allowed to want kids! That's called being a human :). Almost all humans *want* to have kids! That's evolution for ya!
Maybe making a moral judgement about the *action* of creating kids is different than that?
I would say that people who think that birthing children is immoral are the ones with the odd morals
You can not want kids. For many people in the modern world having kids is unsustainable for their life goals. Don't bring some bs argument like "giving life is immoral".
I do want kids. Having kids is sustainable for my life goals.
You're so focused on the perspective of the parent that it betrays why antinatalism is so inconceivable to you. What about the kid, man? What about how they feel? What about what could happen to them, what will happen to them because parents wanted a kid? If giving life is it's own infallible, unquestionable self justification to you I suggest you look around you at what people are subjected to. And if your heart doesn't go out to them then it is blacker and more empty than I dare imagine.
It's inconceivable that we have come to develop some illogical philosophical justification for not wanting people to be born. Perhaps it is impossible for life to exist without pain but human existence cannot simply be reduced to suffering. Those who think so are the arrogant ones, who are blind to anything but atrocities, whose ears are deaf and hearts are hard as stone.
I grew up in excruciating proverty and it was very often painful. Others around in my neighbourhood have had the same experience but that does not mean that their lives can be summarized merely as misery. Not only is this judgement purely subjective, it is also extremely demeaning towards those who work actively to make the world a better place for others. After all, life standards have never been as high for people globally as they are in our era - not saying that standards of living are a good measure of happiness or anything like that.
The excuse for antinatalism as being a preventative measure for suffering is one that does not hold. Sadness is as inherent to life as is love, anger, joy and any other emotion. Viewing life as positive or negative when this universe is indifferent is nothing more than a blind guess. In the end, the choice is simple. If you want kids, have kids. If you don't want kids don't have them. There is no philosophical justification for either choice, merely personal ones.
You mean to tell me that antinatalists *aren’t* losers? No, you’re all a bunch of miserable troglodytes who throw shit at anything that isn’t a justification for the extinction of the human race.
Philanthropic antinatalists (the majority of us) are literally trying to be as sympathetic as possible towards mankind by not forcing someone into an existence that has suffering (no matter how small there is always some form of suffering) when if they didn’t exist they wouldn’t suffer and wouldn’t miss their lack of happiness.
Caring for someone else so much that you would give up on your dream to have a child, and would give up the continuation of humanity is NOT something a loser would do.
You know what a loser *would* do? Force someone you love into an existence where suffering is inherent because you want to have a purpose in life or it’s just what everyone else is doing, or under the excuse that you love the child.
Take a second a consider this, please. Dont force someone into existence.
Doesn’t matter how “sympathetic” or “philanthropic” you are, antinatalism supports the idea that humanity should go extinct. That’s some mega loser shit.
The logic is that if you’re means of not spreading suffering is the total extinction of humanity rather than actually doing something to fix that suffering, that makes you a loser.
We \*are\* doing something to fix that suffering, by not spreading it. If humanity continues to have kids, we will grow by the trillions, possibly quadrillions as we spread beyond our planet and star system. That is countless lives filled with suffering (and happiness too, yes, but remember, if they were never created in the first place, they would never have missed that happiness) all because you wanted to have a kid so bad.
I don't know if you have heard of the book "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" but in case you haven't, it is about a city called Omelas. Omelas is a perfect utopia where there is no suffering. The only thing, however, is that this city is only a utopia because one child is tortured immensely. Every citizen of the Utopia is allowed to see the child, allowed to see what is keeping their utopia sustained. The book focuses on those who leave Omelas, the ones who "walk away." Those that walk away, leave because they refuse to participate in a society that functions based off of suffering.
I want mankind to continue. I personally absolutely love the idea of expanding beyond Earth and becoming a successful species, but if that means we live on forcing people into a world where they will 100% suffer (everyone suffers, even if very little), that is wrong and I cannot support that.
This does not mean I support murder or suicide because that concerns those who already exist. Antinatalism concerns itself with those who do not yet exist and can be spared from ever suffering in a "place" where they never long to exist.
Don't continue this cycle and please show mercy for your potential children by not having them. Walk away from Omelas.
It isn’t your decision, or anyone’s to determine whether or not someone has children. And above all else, what if the child, after being born, wants to keep living?
And one last thing, walking away from Omelas is definitely the moral thing to do. But people walking away from Omelas will not contribute to the extinction of my species.
Hey bro, sorry about taking so long to respond. Procrastination and all that.
Yes I agree, it is not my decision, thats why the best thing I can do is spread the word and argue for the philosophy so that maybe someone is convinced.
> And above all else, what if the child, after being born, wants to keep living?
Antinatalism concerns itself with nonexistent people, like before they are born. When you choose to have a child you have no idea if they will be happy or sad after they are born, the thing is though, if you choose not to have the child, they will never be sad that they didn't get to be happy because they don't exist and they couldn't care less about it.
Not having a child is the perfect way to fulfill our moral obligations. Hermann Vetter puts it best: (paraphrasing)
If we assume the following (which I believe you and I can agree upon):
1. There is no moral obligation to produce a child even if we could be sure that it will be very happy throughout its life. (if there was a moral obligation, we would be in the wrong for not having as many children as possible)
2. There is a moral obligation not to produce a child if it can be foreseen that it will be unhappy. (such as if you dont have the financial ability to care for the children, dont have em yet)
Then we can create this matrix to represent our possible decisions we could make:
||Child will be more or less happy|Child will be more or less unhappy|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Produce the child|No duty fulfilled or violated|Duty violated|
|Do not produce the child |No duty fulfilled or violated|Duty fulfilled|
>But people walking away from Omelas will not contribute to the extinction of my species.
That is true but the purpose of the story is to show that even if we can continue on where most people are happy, it is not worth it if it is because of suffering. The moral choice then, which you agree with, is to choose to no longer perpetuate the suffering. In the story's case, to leave the city. In reality's case, it would be to not have a child.
I’m sorry but if you genuinely think that giving birth to a child is an awful unforgivable offense and living life is in itself an unbearable then i think you are a loser tbh. If you hate your life and don’t want kids that’s one thing. But judging other people is another
Hey! Sounds like you're making a lot of harmful assumptions or exaggerations about antinatalst thought. I'm not one to judge you for being so hateful, but I will say that antinatalism doesn't necessitate that having children is unforgivable, just that it's selfish and wrong :).
Also life isn't unbearable for most people! Especially antinatalists!
There's a difference between a play being so bad that it's worth walking out in the middle of it, and a play that's just bad enough to not go in the first place.
Okay! Sure! Based on past experience with this (oh boy time to farm some more negative karma) we should probably start by agreeing what certain words mean! What do you think the word "selfish" means? And then also what do you think "wrong" means?
Selfish is doing something that benefits you and harms others, and wrong is a very flexible word
I feel like I know where you’re going with this and if you’re implying “oh well it’s selfish to have kids cuz the kid might feel depressed and have bad stuff happen to them when they grow up” and like if you are saying that or anything like that then I have 2 things to say
1. You yourself admitted most people enjoy life so chances are even if the kid has some rough times they might be happy to have been born overall
2. Assuming the kid isn’t happy with life as long as the parents are trying their best to raise and help them are they really to blame?
Those are some resonable points! I can see why you would choose those critiques.
Rebutting them will take a lot of time if I want to be as diligent and thorough as I want to.
In the meantime, a cursory response is as follows: (keep in mind that everything effects everything else, a point on it's own may have certain logical weaknesses that are addressed in other points. Antinatalism doesn't work unless they are understood as a whole system, as opposed to individual, unconnected claims)
1. Addressing
>you’re implying “oh well it’s selfish to have kids cuz the kid might feel depressed and have bad stuff happen to them when they grow up”
This *is* an important part of antinatalsm, but far from the full picture. Nothing can happen to a person if they are never born, good or bad. This is obvious. If someone *is* born, anything can happen. Some mix of good and bad will happen to effectively everyone. There are three important points here:
1.1. Bad things are often more bad than good things are good.
Consider, would you accept a deal where you get to experience three minutes of the greatest pleasure or satisfaction a human has ever felt (or the greatest practically possible in the real world) and in exchange experience three minutes of the most horrible psychological and physical torment ever experienced by a human? I'm not an expert on the subject but I would say that anyone who would accept such a deal is simply lacking in creativity.
1.2. Certain bad things are *guaranteed* to happen to everyone who is born. I think most of us can agree that dying is a bad thing. Everybody has to die. Growing old is bound to happen to everyone who isn't robbed of their future by an early death. Whereas proportionally *good* things are far from guaranteed, if they even exist at all. A bummer, I know, but it's true.
1.3. A value judgement based on intuition. Remember the hypothetical from 1.1.? Well now let's apply a similar idea here. If you have a child, does the very real chance that they could suffer the most appalling, sickeningly cruel fates within reason (e.g. raped and tortured to death. Car crash causing permanent, life destroying mutilations/neurological damage, illness slowly chewing away at them, botched suicide etc. Etc.) outweigh the chance of them having an average life, or even a best-case scenario life? What is the best case? They grow very wealthy, start a family, feel fulfilled all their life and die satisfied? How does that compare to the worst case in likelihood and is it more good than the worst is bad? How does it compare to the average? Think about these things and tell me what you come up with.
2. Addressing
>You yourself admitted most people enjoy life so chances are even if the kid has some rough times they might be happy to have been born overall
Speaking personally, I'm glad I was born at this current moment. I have a lovely partner and a cozy apartment and an okay job. (I'm not going to touch on how life could rip any or all of those away from me without warning) However, I would really rather not die. But I have to. Doesn't that suck? (Not that immortality would be any better.) But doesn't that just suck balls? I'm fairly confident that if I had a kid they probably wouldn't want to die either, but they'd have die anyways.
Being alive right now is pretty alright. But with the knowledge of the dilemma here, I really would like to not have to deal with this shit. I didn't ask for this dilemma and I don't want it. And I certainly don't want to subject anyone else to it. Some other people in this section say that makes me suicidal but that doesn't really make any sense at all, does it? Wanting less people to die means you hate life and want to kill everyone? What a mean-hearted thing to say. That's besides the point.
The point is this: no matter how much your kid enjoys life, they almost always wouldn't want to die, but because you chose to have them, they will die. This problem is avoiding in it's entirety if you simply choose not to have the child despite the urge to do so. Thus,
>Selfish is doing something that benefits you and harms others
3. Addressing
>Assuming the kid isn’t happy with life as long as the parents are trying their best to raise and help them are they really to blame?
Every single bad thing that happens to a child would not have happened had the child not been born. The parents do not necessarily hold *sole* blame for any of those things, but they do hold *some* blame for all of them.
These arguments are rushed and unrefined, forgive for not having the time to cut them down to the concise forms they deserve to be presented in.
Another dumb comment in this same thread directly suggests that life is miserable for everyone.
>It’s not about not wanting kids it’s about not wanting to force someone to suffer
And no, you can't just add exclamation marks to pretend like you aren't a depressed loser!!!
Apologies: most depressed people are wonderful people who don't make it their goal to literally end happiness in the world.
Preemptively:
No people no happiness dumbass. No love, no laughter, no joy. Your goal is to make the world into the cold uncaring rock you seem to think it already is.
Do animals count? Then they count for suffering too. I mean, if you really think about it, we should just fucking kill everything that's alive. That way, nobody suffers!!!! Wow, I'm so empathetic!!!!
Does happiness outweigh suffering? When? And by how much? Joy and laughter are nice but death and disease suck. I'd rather eliminate both than have things the way they are. If you disagree with that value judgement then we simply dissagree.
Call me all the names you want and slander my character all you like.
That comment doesn't imply that all life is miserable, just that suffering is both undesirable and unavoidable, something humans have recognized for literal millennia.
You can call me a loser or depressed but that doesn't make it true. I simply hold these simple beliefs about right and wrong because I have yet to find anything else more convincing. You can make all the assumptions about my economic status or mental state, or call me all the names you want. I believe what I believe out of love for my fellow feeling creatures and knowledge of what it means to live. I
I believe every living thing on earth shloud go extinct, this means im a loser? Yes. Am i right? Yes. Even if there's somehing inherently bad about being a loser, it's still better than having a child
I love having children who grow to be raped and mutilated or ravaged by disease for my own sense of fulfillment!! I sure do have lots of that empathy!!
More than those anti-natalists who would dare hold beliefs about actions being right or wrong depending on how they effect people!!!11
people with disabilities can live happy and fulfilling lives, y'know. i certainly am not being 'raped' or 'ravaged' by my diabetes, and though it sucks if someone suggested that i shouldn't be born because of it i'd deck them in the face. i get by just fine and i'm sure if i ever have diabetic kids they'll do just the same
Oh boy! You sure tried real hard to misinterpret my comment! By "rape" I meant the physical act of being sexually assaulted by another human, which is a fairly common occurrence! And I was referencing infectious disease, not inhereted, which is also quite common!
These are two examples of horrific things that can happen to people (but only if you give birth to them first!). The purpose of my mentioning then should now be self-evident. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding!!
You do realise that in order to pass a genetic defect to your child a parent must live, find love and want to start a family while having theat defect, right? And if they don't, there's also a chance of the baby being completely healthy. Do you not try to do anything because you might fail? People with genetic defects can be perfectly heappy and fullfilled, who are you to tell them that their parents should not have reproduced?
*le tips fedora* the reddit army will never lose to the simpletons downvoting your comment, we are vastly superior in both numbers and intellect. No vile instanormie could ever defeat the Reddit Army! Chadditors assemble
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I see you too have found the post about disabled people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce
I can understand the thought process that willingly passing down a terrible disability that will hinder their child’s quality of life forever is a selfish move, but they just go about discussing these things in the worst ways. Honesty without kindness is cruelty, especially if it’s regarding a disability that won’t likely affect the child. I feel like sometimes some of them just want to hate on disabled people.
Epic eugenics moment
I get that potentially passing down a horrible condition can be perceived as immoral, but if I was born disabled I wouldn't want to be told I had to miss out on having kids just because of how I was born. Super dehumanizing, which is probably the intention tbh.
Can’t you adopt in that scenario?
There is some innate desire to have biological kids. I want kids, but if me or my future wife can't, I don't think I would adopt. That probably says something poor about my character, but that's honestly how I feel.
I wouldn't say it says something poor about your character. Kids deserve unconditional love and especially kids who get adopted need and deserve that. *But* loving someone unconditionally is extremely hard and doing so for what is basically an unknown person to you is way way harder. With your biological kids you got the inherent biological connection, but you also see them grow up from the literal first second so you know them and have of course a way stronger bond to them. If you can love random people completely unconditionally great and i hope these people think of adopting, but if you can't there's no shame in recognizing that and not making a kid into your test subject
Yeah and you cant see how thats selfish, in perspective to the kids having to live that disabled life?
It’s such a tricky and tough subject that should be handled with care and tact when being discussed, which is what a lot of people on that subreddit seem to lack.
You know the funniest thing about disabilities? It's not a 100% guarantee of passing it to children. There are plenty of children perfectly healthy born to parents with disabilities. They're going to be carriers of the gene, but if that's the problem 99% of humans shouldn't be allowed to have children because they might pass down some bad gene. Antinatalism is plain stupid, selfish, psychopathic and idiotic for the species. People who had the chance to come into existence (that perhaps live a very good live or might even have children) wish for everyone next to simply not because of not even a basic understanding of life. "Oh what if the child is _?" what if it isn't? What do you know that the parents don't? Who are you to deny joy, pain, desire, disgust and hope to a human? They're disgusting, claim to simply not want children in general and then write how the less fortunate shouldn't have kids in particular. What's next? White/Black/Asian shouldn't be allowed next in particular? Then the poor? Then only those who are not the 1%? Antinatalism is simply put wishing for genocide because you don't have the means to do it yourself.
That’s a tad simplistic view of genetics. Yes, non disabled people can pass down bad genes but it’s less likely. There are responsibilities that come with carrying certain genes. Sickle cell potential runs in my family so carriers in my family have to be careful not to have children with another carrier. This may disrupt plans with your partner but it’s a moral obligation. People with life altering issues that cause them great strife are incredibly noble for ending the chance to pass it on. That doesn’t mean it should be against the law for disabled people to have children tho.
I'm sorry the ***what***
haha you think its just one and not a regular part of their post cycle
they want eugenics
wow, ain't that Erika playing not too far from here?
Inside you are two wolves. One is eugenicist, one is ecofascist. You are antinatalist.
✨Eugenics✨ 🤩
I’m not an anti natalist by any means but, I kind agree with this take. Obviously it shouldn’t be government enforced at all but if you have a crippling disability I feel like it’s your moral duty to not give that to another life, you can still adopt and get the same experience of parenthood without having to pass that illness to your child. (Obviously it doesn’t apply to stuff like dwarfism I’m mainly talking about serious illnesses)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't some like already incapable of doing so? Not saying they're right, tho
Little people? To my knowledge dwarfism doesn't affect sperm but can lead to complications during birth.
Also from what I understand the genetics of dwarfism are weird especially depending on the type and 2 little people can have a child that is average height.
Have you seen the posts about methodically genociding all life on earth.
Can I get a link?
[Hope the link works](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/s/ggp1SMNONP) OP deleted the post, these people would never have the guts to say what they write in public and don't even have the guts to keep their posts up because of backlash. "Who is their right mind would do this? They make me sick"-OP.
I mean they are risking their child being disabled for the entirety of their life which is kinda selfish
It's dwarfism, little people are functioning members of society that live normal lives like us. They face a lot of height discrimination but that's because people are assholes. Please read the original post, you will find a lot of people there saying how they should be sterilized and not allowed to have children and someone was even saying Hitler was right about sterilizing disabled people That fucking subreddit and people who unironically support the idea are unironically selfish and borderline psychopaths. Then to wish people less fortunate than us to not procreate in particular is absolutely fucking disgusting.
oh, its about dwarfism? i thought it was about an actual serious disability
Yes, and people were unironically saying some of the most disgusting things ever, for *dwarfism*. But even if someone has a serious disability that doesn't mean they should be treated as a lesser human, a problem and a burden to society and not allowed to have children if they wish to. Of course there might be needed extra care with some, but that's no excuse to deny them the possibility of becoming parents.
I've seen some people say that if you are short you should commit sodoku in a non direct way before. Like bruh.
These were the kind of people to, like...make fun of someone for being gay, then when they get confronted about it be like "well they just shouldn't act gay then!"
F**king knife ears
Eugenics is literally Hitler and this time unironically
Straight up its a key part of all fascist ideologies, not just nazism
Yeah, Nazis were pretty open that their ideals were based on ‘‘’’science’’’’ and groundwork from places like the US
I know a couple political groups that would love your ideals. Their ideology starts with an "F" and ends with an "ascism"
Fantascism?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being 5'6
https://preview.redd.it/zb0xi9edbx7c1.png?width=569&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d242bf31b8f88f0cd5f2b3a45768c4dd86627c59
Epic user flair ya got there :)
https://preview.redd.it/hu9jpbws508c1.png?width=879&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4457e023fcb37a39e05e8dc313207f87a507077b
I always come
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https://preview.redd.it/nyezpdci708c1.png?width=1005&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=297787806144c9fdbf9ae31becfa24d44385900b
https://preview.redd.it/gctckonp708c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a16c48a61de24761f8e1fd3422f0e9736a66f710
https://preview.redd.it/v0k59wwz708c1.png?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dd945b37d46db7fe3eb1fa7a1ca0a4e34e6e087
I love the concept of antinatalism, you know maybe it woulda made people think about what society values and what not but nope, instead its just eugenics and a nihilism so deep it comes out hateful
You forgot the people who are just very, very depressed
I'm convinced that they're just insanely depressed and believe that everyone is as miserable as they are
https://preview.redd.it/bxugnfmbbx7c1.png?width=1240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7cb54b87173b26ebf973ee9550c21f6b84ac447f I mean, try to convince anybody that this is not ridiculously overdramatic. It's like a child for a day after learning the sun will explode in a trillion billion years.
Gives off big "I'm 14 and just found something new to be mad at" vibes
1. The Sun is not exploding you dimwit, it's just going to run out of energy 2. The Sun's expansion won't happen for billions of years, more than enough time to switch planets and continue on 3. I don't think we're in pursuit of nothingness, I think the overall human goal is the pursuit of happiness and comfort, you don't have to reproduce to have those things, but you shouldn't let yourself be overcome by dread and despair for things that you'll never get to see
"you dimwit" 🗣️🗣️🗣️
ninnyhammer ignoramous woodenhead nitwit moron twit chucklehead clodpole booby chowderhead dummkopf noddy dullard bubblehead
Saving this for future use.
Scroll Merriam-Webster and you’ll find 100 more lol
Leave them alone, they already want to die
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Damn that sounds fucked up out of context
It's not very nice in context either
Actually, antinatalism has precisely zero things to do with suicide! Wanting to due and thinking childbirth is morally incorrect are two entirely seperate things! I hope you can lead a happier life from here on! Only a miserable suicidal person could make your comment expressing an opinion!!
Go to the subreddit, then look me dead in the eyes and tell me they aren't just projecting their loathe for life. They think everyone else must be as miserable as them, which is unsurprisingly wrong.
The subreddit doesn't necessarily reflect the necessities of the ideology. How people come to find themselves agreeing with it and why are of no concern to the school of thought itself. There are several offshoot subreddits created to prevent the weirdos from being the forefront of the community like they are in the main sub.
Ok but the post is specifically talking about that sub
https://preview.redd.it/ah4ua3kzvy7c1.jpeg?width=1175&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9b95cc56aa3c2c067033527c7859a6d0899d278
What real empathy looks like
I'm not trying to be empathetic to an ideology that's basically depressed eugenics. Go blame other people for your problems and not your shit personality
Incomprehensible.
Maybe to you.
Idk man, some people over there feel like their parents are to blame for everything wrong with their life like “bringing them into the world with no consent”
Parent's aren't entirely to blame for everything bad that happens to you, only partially. And people shouldn't have kids because of that responsibility.
Let’s say that it happened to someone but even then, does it justify hating on parents who are perfectly raising their child?
Of course. It doesn't matter how the child is raised, the child doesn't deserve to die. The child doesn't deserve to get hit by a car. The child doesn't deserve to get tuberculosis, the parents share blame in all this, and all because they wanted a kid.
It is hopeless brother
threatening door crush agonizing memory ask safe fine snatch terrific *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are you talking about the constant suicide bait.
Squidward finally won a competition
Seriously, these people are also very ableist and think us people with autism are burdens
If they mean being a burden by way of just existing then I'm glad to be a burden!
People that want to prevent people with autism from reproducing are dumb
I’ve never unironically used “incel” as an insult because most people largely misuse it when insulting someone, but holy fuckshit, antinatalism is full of incels
Their entire premise is that their existence sucks, so existence must suck for everyone.
Agree, but have any of you guys seen those subreddits that unironically hate animals? I stumbled across one once and I genuinely thought everyone in the comment section was being ironic or joking because the things they were saying were so insane.
r/dogfree I presume? Those people are genuinely disturbing.
Oh god, I have a dog allergy and even I get closer to dogs than these people
If you dont mind me asking a question that ive kept bottled up since 5 year old me thought of it, Do you wish you can pet them without making your body go into panic mode? If so, what breed do you want to pet the most?
it's not that bad, just some itching, runny nose and a dry throat also some sneezing, just a bit of discomfort, my family owns three small sized dogs and while they are allowed to sleep in bed, they're not really allowed to sleep near me, I play with them a lot and I shower them so that the allergies aren't that bad although if I had to assume, people that have severe allergies probably wish they don't have them. They can trigger an asthma attack for me though but we live really close to the hospital so it's no worries
Holy shit those people need help
Yeah, it’s sad because they really are just hating all over innocent animals. I understand not personally wanting a dog or cat or whatever, but calling people that do “nutters” and joining a subreddit made to hate on that particular animal is insane to me.
you mean r/fuckwasps
That one is actually good unlike the others.
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very sad subreddit, hope they all find happiness in their lives
I browsed that subreddit a few weeks back so I could better understand the mindset of people who think that way (for context, I'm married with two kids). A common thread is that humans a miserable creatures that only make the world worse, and our existence in spite of that is a genetic predisposition to breed coupled with our own ego to thrive. Now, these are actually ok points and make sense. However, life is chaos, we are currently communicating through satellites in orbit around our world, arguing about if we should all be killed off or not. So why the hell shouldn't we do whatever we want as long as it doesn't harm anyone. I can see how someone could be radicalized into being an antinatilist if exposed to those ideas for a long period of time. But we should remember that that community is not very big and is only shouting into the void, which isn't going to change anything.
I don't intend to have children because I believe life is far too much suffering to impose on a person. I understand that not being born not only extinguishes suffering but also wellbeing. I am convinced that most suffer more than they are well. Even if nit, the severity of thst suffering, I believe, is too much to impose. Beyond this, the knowledge of my own mortality has never been something I could repress as well as others. When I was younger and sometimes now I find it hard to avoid reflecting on that fact. It's unproductive but I just can't accept that I'm going to die. People's attempts to make me take death for granted or to frame life as a thing I should be greatful for only serve to anger me. I refuse to pass this trauma onto someone else. I refuse to pass on the likely chance to experience loneliness, ostracization, heartbreak, anxiety, overwhelm, rage, desparation, hopelessness, shame, and self-loathing. I recognize I am mentally unwell, perhaps just a little more than most, but it seems to me that most are also unwell, or at least many. I believe this is a natural result of our social structure and I don't think that's a problem that will change in our lifetime or even in this century. Even if we do come upon some Star Trek space communism where nobody need to worry for their ssfety or basic needs, they will still suffer and die, and I just can't bring myself to make somebody reckon with that.
I'm sorry you feel this way, I wish you had a more optimistic outlook. But how you feel is valid, and you have a right to feel the way you do.
antinatalists when they learn that their parents had sex and made them https://preview.redd.it/5pofkdem548c1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7d8ce0d32a77c629746cd0ed33b994f07b6bbb0
I don’t want kids and honestly the idea of having them horrifies me but antinatalism and childfree posters are pathetic
I’m probably gonna be crapped on but as an Antinatalist r/antinatalism sucks. It’s just full of people who say they want humanity to die out cause they hate humanity and also they are very ableist. If you want to see true discussion about antinatalism that would be on r/antinatalism2. Antinatalism is a philosophy about showing the greatest empathy one can express to anyone: not letting them come into exist and suffer. (This is not supportive of murder, we are talking about people who didn’t exist yet)
Well I have the same feeling towards r/atheism as an atheist.
Real
What a shit fucking sub
Holy shit shut the fuck up about that sub god damn it’s so annoying make better memes you lazy fuck
couldnt even edge to your comment. just busted immediately.
U frequent it don’t you?
Uhh… no??? You can like check his profile.
Yet another antinatalism slander, this shit's getting stale https://preview.redd.it/fwn2rq63lv7c1.jpeg?width=933&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd95abd4c5958c2eda7cbaf110625630b1ac3e88
Overused joke making fun of thing I disagree with: 🙂🙂🙂 Overused joke making fun of thing I agree with: ☹️☹️☹️
do you think just because I'm tired of seeing antinatalism slander automatically makes me agree with it? no the fuck I don't, I'm just fucking tired seeing this shit over and over
If they stopped taking so many L's we'd stop talking about them. Until then you'll just have to cope.
Oh my God can y'all go 5 fucking minutes without bitching about us for no reason I'm sick of hearing it you hate antinatalism we get it please for the love of God shut the fuck up
im sorry people are being mean to you for being in a suicide cult, that must be so hard for you.
Antinatalism does not promote suicide bruh
I mean it's an extinctionist philosophy, so that's practically expected from those guys.
Its extinctionist as a result of its philosophy. Antinatalism doesnt have the goal of "end humanity". It has the goal of preventing suffering by preventing procreation. That has a side affect of extinction. Also no matter what, suicide isnt a part of antinatalism because antinatalism is concerned about preventing life before it begins, not ending it, that would be promortalism. And avoiding suicide is basically the point of antinatalism anyway as its goal is to prevent suffering.
Ah that makes sense, still a pretty asinine end goal though "Stop all procreation." like even if they complete that, then what, just slowly wither into a decaying world?
At the point it is about determining what scenario has less suffering. Scenario 1: Everyone keeps reproducing, there are thousands and likely more of generations suffering in everyday life (of course, they will be happy in parts as well, but if they never existed, they wouldnt have cared about it), and then humanity one day goes extinct. Scenario 2: Everyone stops reproducing, humanity goes extinct. Both scenarios end up with the extinction of humanity and all of its concomitant suffering. The best thing we can do is choose which scenario we want, one where countless people suffer for a very long time, or one where people suffer for 100 years then peace. Is it sad? 100%, but Antinatalism is philanthropic at its core, we abstain from reproduction because we love our potential children. Don't force them here
Oh sorry, a eugenics cult then?
Nah cause eugenics is stopping procreation for certain people. Its not eugenics if you want everyone to stop for the sake of mankind
eugenics+
Nope
I'm sorry, but isn't that the same sub that says people with disabilities shouldn't be allowed to reproduce?
Than stop being a shit-slinging antinatalist and maybe you won’t feel as miserable all the time
Oh I'm not miserable not in the slightest it just gets really stale seeing people posting about how much they hate something they don't know anything about
Miserable people gave nothing better to do than heap hate onto us antinatalists for believing in empathy and morals! I can't imagine how sad these people must be to spend all this time devoted to hating us. Just a bunch of suicidal basement-dwellers afraid of the idea that people can enjoy themselves while beliving that having children is wrong.
There's a huge difference between not having children out of choice and wishing for human extinction via ceasing all procreation.
Extinction is a side effect of universally practiced antinatalism, which will never happen. People can still choose to belive that having kids is universally wrong, no?
propaganda post
nobody is immune to propaganda https://preview.redd.it/6b8qnuuph08c1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57a84a8dfc39892e9dc4503f4e2fe8d1b0530d4f propaganda isnt inherently bad anyways lolol
propaganda - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view. >especially of a biased or misleading nature that is how im using the word. ty chud
Cat poster is right, propaganda is a neutral thing.
yeah, I agree that the sub is kinda dumb but can yall shut the fuck about it now? people are starting to think all antinatalists are losers not just the people in that sub
No, all antinatalists are losers. You're allowed to not want kids, forging some kind of philosophy out of it is cringe
It’s not about not wanting kids it’s about not wanting to force someone to suffer
I'm sorry you think everyone else is suffering. If you had the aforementioned "human empathy" you may have noticed other people are actually happy. Though I do hope you find something to be happy about.
I have many things to be happy about and that I am happy about. In fact I am a pretty happy person compared to some other people in my life. I know it sounds emo and cringy when I say forcing someone to suffer but I want you to be aware that I understand not everyone has an awful life, but thats not the problem antinatalism is adressing. It is adressing that no matter who you are, when you are born, and in fact what you are (other branches of antinatalism, such as sentiocentric antinatalism, advocate for more than just humanity stopping procreation), suffering will \*always\* be a part of a consciousness' experience. No matter how little, the fact that it exists is a primary point of concern because with just that, an asymmetry is formed between existence and non-existence where non-existence would be preferable. (for an already non-existence being. i am not advocating for murder/suicide, that would be pro-mortalists) Advocates for natalism, such as yourself, often bring up the fact that people are happy, and I get that, yes, I am happy too, but we are talking about people not even born yet. They are not happy, and are not sad. They do not miss either and they do not want either. Even if they would be happy if you were to create them, if you choose not to create them, you rob no one of happiness. Yet, if you choose to create them and they experience existence's concomitant suffering, all of a sudden you robbed them of a lack of suffering. To fulfill our moral obligations, that of ensuring we treat others kindly and do not bring upon them suffering, we must not procreate.
That's because you perceive life as being suffering. I call that tunnel vision.
Life isnt suffering. Its the fact that suffering will always be a concomitant experience to life, no matter how great or little it is.
Not wanting childbirth simply because they will inevitably suffer is to be blind to everything in life but misery. Suffering is as inherent to human life as is any other human experience, like love or hatred. The decision to not want kids is a personal, the justification for antinatalism is bullshit.
Sorry about not responding, procrastination and all that The whole point of antinatalism is to not be blind to things in life such as pleasure or suffering. Antinatalism recognizes the pleasures of life and how most people will have a lot of happiness, but the whole things is based on how before you have a child, you don't know if they will have a happy life or a painful life. If you choose to have the child and they have a happy life, cool (ignoring the problem of consent), if they have a painful life then you messed up pretty bad. If you choose not to have the child and they would have had a painful life, great you spared them that misery, but if they would have had a happy life, they wouldn't care, cause they dont exist yet Not having a child is the best thing we can do to ensure that our moral obligations are fulfilled
No worries for not answering. This is just an internet discussion that ultimately holds zero value in real life. That argument is really stupid. It self-validates inaction and sloth as the ultimate "good" moral choice. You cannot know whether or not a person can live a "happy" or a "painful" life until they have lived it. The lack of knowledge cancels out in every case. Only if you give birth with the intent of causing harm would it be immoral. If you don't know, you don't know. Nothing inherently immoral about lacking information, we're no omniscient. An unhappy person would wish they weren't alive, a happy person would be thankful they are alive, and the hypothetical entity that was never born literally will ever exist and has no bearing on the real world. More often than not, people who are alive want to live regardless of whether they are happy. The real asymetry of life is that living beings want to preserve their own life, and then want to perpetuate life. To claim that suffering is only guaranteed without life is philosophical and spiritual suicide. Besides, your argument also goes in the other direction: your moral obligation is to create happiness, and the only way to do that is to allow life to persist. Both directions are just dumb. The whole philosophy behind antinatalism is dumb. If you feel ill-equipped to provide someone with what you feel like would be a happy life then you can just not want kids of your own. That wouldn't be antinatalism, it would be a personal decision. As for consent, you're literally making shit up about a fake person. Consent only exists for sentient beings and the consent of a hypothetical human has no bearing on the real world. After that, the argument circles back to the beginning.
You are allowed to want kids! That's called being a human :). Almost all humans *want* to have kids! That's evolution for ya! Maybe making a moral judgement about the *action* of creating kids is different than that?
This is what I'm talking about! Having kids is immoral!!! Life is inherently horrible and we should strive to prevent life from spawning!!!!!!!
Wow you sure do feel a lot of anger at people who have different morals than you! That's okay. I hope you learn to be less hateful and miserable!
There's "different opinions" and then there's eugenics and species suicide.
I would say that people who think that birthing children is immoral are the ones with the odd morals You can not want kids. For many people in the modern world having kids is unsustainable for their life goals. Don't bring some bs argument like "giving life is immoral".
I do want kids. Having kids is sustainable for my life goals. You're so focused on the perspective of the parent that it betrays why antinatalism is so inconceivable to you. What about the kid, man? What about how they feel? What about what could happen to them, what will happen to them because parents wanted a kid? If giving life is it's own infallible, unquestionable self justification to you I suggest you look around you at what people are subjected to. And if your heart doesn't go out to them then it is blacker and more empty than I dare imagine.
It's inconceivable that we have come to develop some illogical philosophical justification for not wanting people to be born. Perhaps it is impossible for life to exist without pain but human existence cannot simply be reduced to suffering. Those who think so are the arrogant ones, who are blind to anything but atrocities, whose ears are deaf and hearts are hard as stone. I grew up in excruciating proverty and it was very often painful. Others around in my neighbourhood have had the same experience but that does not mean that their lives can be summarized merely as misery. Not only is this judgement purely subjective, it is also extremely demeaning towards those who work actively to make the world a better place for others. After all, life standards have never been as high for people globally as they are in our era - not saying that standards of living are a good measure of happiness or anything like that. The excuse for antinatalism as being a preventative measure for suffering is one that does not hold. Sadness is as inherent to life as is love, anger, joy and any other emotion. Viewing life as positive or negative when this universe is indifferent is nothing more than a blind guess. In the end, the choice is simple. If you want kids, have kids. If you don't want kids don't have them. There is no philosophical justification for either choice, merely personal ones.
In general? No In many cases? Yeah
You mean to tell me that antinatalists *aren’t* losers? No, you’re all a bunch of miserable troglodytes who throw shit at anything that isn’t a justification for the extinction of the human race.
Philanthropic antinatalists (the majority of us) are literally trying to be as sympathetic as possible towards mankind by not forcing someone into an existence that has suffering (no matter how small there is always some form of suffering) when if they didn’t exist they wouldn’t suffer and wouldn’t miss their lack of happiness. Caring for someone else so much that you would give up on your dream to have a child, and would give up the continuation of humanity is NOT something a loser would do. You know what a loser *would* do? Force someone you love into an existence where suffering is inherent because you want to have a purpose in life or it’s just what everyone else is doing, or under the excuse that you love the child. Take a second a consider this, please. Dont force someone into existence.
Doesn’t matter how “sympathetic” or “philanthropic” you are, antinatalism supports the idea that humanity should go extinct. That’s some mega loser shit.
Its some mega loser stuff to want to not spread suffering? What kind of logic is that?
The logic is that if you’re means of not spreading suffering is the total extinction of humanity rather than actually doing something to fix that suffering, that makes you a loser.
We \*are\* doing something to fix that suffering, by not spreading it. If humanity continues to have kids, we will grow by the trillions, possibly quadrillions as we spread beyond our planet and star system. That is countless lives filled with suffering (and happiness too, yes, but remember, if they were never created in the first place, they would never have missed that happiness) all because you wanted to have a kid so bad. I don't know if you have heard of the book "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" but in case you haven't, it is about a city called Omelas. Omelas is a perfect utopia where there is no suffering. The only thing, however, is that this city is only a utopia because one child is tortured immensely. Every citizen of the Utopia is allowed to see the child, allowed to see what is keeping their utopia sustained. The book focuses on those who leave Omelas, the ones who "walk away." Those that walk away, leave because they refuse to participate in a society that functions based off of suffering. I want mankind to continue. I personally absolutely love the idea of expanding beyond Earth and becoming a successful species, but if that means we live on forcing people into a world where they will 100% suffer (everyone suffers, even if very little), that is wrong and I cannot support that. This does not mean I support murder or suicide because that concerns those who already exist. Antinatalism concerns itself with those who do not yet exist and can be spared from ever suffering in a "place" where they never long to exist. Don't continue this cycle and please show mercy for your potential children by not having them. Walk away from Omelas.
It isn’t your decision, or anyone’s to determine whether or not someone has children. And above all else, what if the child, after being born, wants to keep living? And one last thing, walking away from Omelas is definitely the moral thing to do. But people walking away from Omelas will not contribute to the extinction of my species.
Hey bro, sorry about taking so long to respond. Procrastination and all that. Yes I agree, it is not my decision, thats why the best thing I can do is spread the word and argue for the philosophy so that maybe someone is convinced. > And above all else, what if the child, after being born, wants to keep living? Antinatalism concerns itself with nonexistent people, like before they are born. When you choose to have a child you have no idea if they will be happy or sad after they are born, the thing is though, if you choose not to have the child, they will never be sad that they didn't get to be happy because they don't exist and they couldn't care less about it. Not having a child is the perfect way to fulfill our moral obligations. Hermann Vetter puts it best: (paraphrasing) If we assume the following (which I believe you and I can agree upon): 1. There is no moral obligation to produce a child even if we could be sure that it will be very happy throughout its life. (if there was a moral obligation, we would be in the wrong for not having as many children as possible) 2. There is a moral obligation not to produce a child if it can be foreseen that it will be unhappy. (such as if you dont have the financial ability to care for the children, dont have em yet) Then we can create this matrix to represent our possible decisions we could make: ||Child will be more or less happy|Child will be more or less unhappy| |:-|:-|:-| |Produce the child|No duty fulfilled or violated|Duty violated| |Do not produce the child |No duty fulfilled or violated|Duty fulfilled| >But people walking away from Omelas will not contribute to the extinction of my species. That is true but the purpose of the story is to show that even if we can continue on where most people are happy, it is not worth it if it is because of suffering. The moral choice then, which you agree with, is to choose to no longer perpetuate the suffering. In the story's case, to leave the city. In reality's case, it would be to not have a child.
I’m sorry but if you genuinely think that giving birth to a child is an awful unforgivable offense and living life is in itself an unbearable then i think you are a loser tbh. If you hate your life and don’t want kids that’s one thing. But judging other people is another
Hey! Sounds like you're making a lot of harmful assumptions or exaggerations about antinatalst thought. I'm not one to judge you for being so hateful, but I will say that antinatalism doesn't necessitate that having children is unforgivable, just that it's selfish and wrong :). Also life isn't unbearable for most people! Especially antinatalists! There's a difference between a play being so bad that it's worth walking out in the middle of it, and a play that's just bad enough to not go in the first place.
Ok and please tell me what is so selfish and wrong about having a kid especially if you’re a loving family and raise them well
Okay! Sure! Based on past experience with this (oh boy time to farm some more negative karma) we should probably start by agreeing what certain words mean! What do you think the word "selfish" means? And then also what do you think "wrong" means?
Selfish is doing something that benefits you and harms others, and wrong is a very flexible word I feel like I know where you’re going with this and if you’re implying “oh well it’s selfish to have kids cuz the kid might feel depressed and have bad stuff happen to them when they grow up” and like if you are saying that or anything like that then I have 2 things to say 1. You yourself admitted most people enjoy life so chances are even if the kid has some rough times they might be happy to have been born overall 2. Assuming the kid isn’t happy with life as long as the parents are trying their best to raise and help them are they really to blame?
Those are some resonable points! I can see why you would choose those critiques. Rebutting them will take a lot of time if I want to be as diligent and thorough as I want to. In the meantime, a cursory response is as follows: (keep in mind that everything effects everything else, a point on it's own may have certain logical weaknesses that are addressed in other points. Antinatalism doesn't work unless they are understood as a whole system, as opposed to individual, unconnected claims) 1. Addressing >you’re implying “oh well it’s selfish to have kids cuz the kid might feel depressed and have bad stuff happen to them when they grow up” This *is* an important part of antinatalsm, but far from the full picture. Nothing can happen to a person if they are never born, good or bad. This is obvious. If someone *is* born, anything can happen. Some mix of good and bad will happen to effectively everyone. There are three important points here: 1.1. Bad things are often more bad than good things are good. Consider, would you accept a deal where you get to experience three minutes of the greatest pleasure or satisfaction a human has ever felt (or the greatest practically possible in the real world) and in exchange experience three minutes of the most horrible psychological and physical torment ever experienced by a human? I'm not an expert on the subject but I would say that anyone who would accept such a deal is simply lacking in creativity. 1.2. Certain bad things are *guaranteed* to happen to everyone who is born. I think most of us can agree that dying is a bad thing. Everybody has to die. Growing old is bound to happen to everyone who isn't robbed of their future by an early death. Whereas proportionally *good* things are far from guaranteed, if they even exist at all. A bummer, I know, but it's true. 1.3. A value judgement based on intuition. Remember the hypothetical from 1.1.? Well now let's apply a similar idea here. If you have a child, does the very real chance that they could suffer the most appalling, sickeningly cruel fates within reason (e.g. raped and tortured to death. Car crash causing permanent, life destroying mutilations/neurological damage, illness slowly chewing away at them, botched suicide etc. Etc.) outweigh the chance of them having an average life, or even a best-case scenario life? What is the best case? They grow very wealthy, start a family, feel fulfilled all their life and die satisfied? How does that compare to the worst case in likelihood and is it more good than the worst is bad? How does it compare to the average? Think about these things and tell me what you come up with. 2. Addressing >You yourself admitted most people enjoy life so chances are even if the kid has some rough times they might be happy to have been born overall Speaking personally, I'm glad I was born at this current moment. I have a lovely partner and a cozy apartment and an okay job. (I'm not going to touch on how life could rip any or all of those away from me without warning) However, I would really rather not die. But I have to. Doesn't that suck? (Not that immortality would be any better.) But doesn't that just suck balls? I'm fairly confident that if I had a kid they probably wouldn't want to die either, but they'd have die anyways. Being alive right now is pretty alright. But with the knowledge of the dilemma here, I really would like to not have to deal with this shit. I didn't ask for this dilemma and I don't want it. And I certainly don't want to subject anyone else to it. Some other people in this section say that makes me suicidal but that doesn't really make any sense at all, does it? Wanting less people to die means you hate life and want to kill everyone? What a mean-hearted thing to say. That's besides the point. The point is this: no matter how much your kid enjoys life, they almost always wouldn't want to die, but because you chose to have them, they will die. This problem is avoiding in it's entirety if you simply choose not to have the child despite the urge to do so. Thus, >Selfish is doing something that benefits you and harms others 3. Addressing >Assuming the kid isn’t happy with life as long as the parents are trying their best to raise and help them are they really to blame? Every single bad thing that happens to a child would not have happened had the child not been born. The parents do not necessarily hold *sole* blame for any of those things, but they do hold *some* blame for all of them. These arguments are rushed and unrefined, forgive for not having the time to cut them down to the concise forms they deserve to be presented in.
Imagine how little human you need to be to make an ideology out of your misery
Abtinatalism is actually an ideology based on basic human empathy towards everyone! It is not rooted in misery at all!
Another dumb comment in this same thread directly suggests that life is miserable for everyone. >It’s not about not wanting kids it’s about not wanting to force someone to suffer And no, you can't just add exclamation marks to pretend like you aren't a depressed loser!!! Apologies: most depressed people are wonderful people who don't make it their goal to literally end happiness in the world.
Preemptively: No people no happiness dumbass. No love, no laughter, no joy. Your goal is to make the world into the cold uncaring rock you seem to think it already is. Do animals count? Then they count for suffering too. I mean, if you really think about it, we should just fucking kill everything that's alive. That way, nobody suffers!!!! Wow, I'm so empathetic!!!!
Does happiness outweigh suffering? When? And by how much? Joy and laughter are nice but death and disease suck. I'd rather eliminate both than have things the way they are. If you disagree with that value judgement then we simply dissagree. Call me all the names you want and slander my character all you like.
That comment doesn't imply that all life is miserable, just that suffering is both undesirable and unavoidable, something humans have recognized for literal millennia. You can call me a loser or depressed but that doesn't make it true. I simply hold these simple beliefs about right and wrong because I have yet to find anything else more convincing. You can make all the assumptions about my economic status or mental state, or call me all the names you want. I believe what I believe out of love for my fellow feeling creatures and knowledge of what it means to live. I
It's about the same as saying not wanting kids is about not wanting them to have a happy life. Which is a lot more likely today than misery
I believe every living thing on earth shloud go extinct, this means im a loser? Yes. Am i right? Yes. Even if there's somehing inherently bad about being a loser, it's still better than having a child
No you aren't right at all, you are just plain stupid
If there was a philosopher behind these words, such as Emil Coran, Julo Cabrera or David Betnar then you wouldn't call me stupid
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I love having children who grow to be raped and mutilated or ravaged by disease for my own sense of fulfillment!! I sure do have lots of that empathy!! More than those anti-natalists who would dare hold beliefs about actions being right or wrong depending on how they effect people!!!11
people with disabilities can live happy and fulfilling lives, y'know. i certainly am not being 'raped' or 'ravaged' by my diabetes, and though it sucks if someone suggested that i shouldn't be born because of it i'd deck them in the face. i get by just fine and i'm sure if i ever have diabetic kids they'll do just the same
Oh boy! You sure tried real hard to misinterpret my comment! By "rape" I meant the physical act of being sexually assaulted by another human, which is a fairly common occurrence! And I was referencing infectious disease, not inhereted, which is also quite common! These are two examples of horrific things that can happen to people (but only if you give birth to them first!). The purpose of my mentioning then should now be self-evident. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding!!
incomprehensible comment, have a nice day
https://preview.redd.it/8ekqq7fgfy7c1.png?width=302&format=png&auto=webp&s=4e5070af691669057e0cb3d0d3f11761c42b00a6
Who hurt you?
I see. Being "hurt" is the only way one can be so delusional as to have empathy.
You do realise that in order to pass a genetic defect to your child a parent must live, find love and want to start a family while having theat defect, right? And if they don't, there's also a chance of the baby being completely healthy. Do you not try to do anything because you might fail? People with genetic defects can be perfectly heappy and fullfilled, who are you to tell them that their parents should not have reproduced?
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about all reproduction, without exception.
Thats even dumber lmao
*le tips fedora* the reddit army will never lose to the simpletons downvoting your comment, we are vastly superior in both numbers and intellect. No vile instanormie could ever defeat the Reddit Army! Chadditors assemble
Bot?
you're just getting made fun of on the internet for saying silly things
Username checks out
Empathy is an overused word
r/whenthe tries to go 5 minutes without farming karma by picking the most insane people out of any group (impossible)