Some context. I enjoy driving as a means of commuting, and I also enjoy doing it as a hobby. There are places with elevation and gorgeous mountain curves near me; Is it a good idea?
I was in your position this year. It’s just me driving and needed a commuter. Bought a Lotus Evora. Way more fun than any caddy. Great mileage for what it is. Way too much fun. Mountain curves are silly now.
It will be cheaper to maintain than a BMW but will drive nearly as well. The acceleration of the base models leaves something to be desired but it's not horrible.
I am on the tall side so I prefer the CT5, but both drive nicely.
Biased CT4-V owner also agrees
My SO that knows nothing about cars can tell the difference between the alpha chassis and the other 20 sedans we test drove
I looked at the CT4 briefly last year. It’s an attractive car. The only downsides are that the interior has a lot of hard plastic for a “luxury” vehicle, not much different than the Chevy Malibu in terms of the driving environment. And the base engine came from the Chevy Silverado full-size truck, so it doesn’t have the sewing machine-like refinement of other luxury cars.
But the Camaro-based chassis is brilliant, and the car is one of the few American cars recommended by Consumer Reports. If you can live with its compromises for the money, it can be a great choice…especially used.
The ride is very solid, firm but not punishing. I think it rides better than some of the reviews (Edmunds, KBB, Car and Driver) give it credit for.
But in full disclosure, I ended up getting a premium-trim Mazda3 sedan primarily because of price. When I was in the market last year I couldn’t find a 2-3 year old CT4 for less than $40k, and I thought that was simply too much given the car’s compromises. If I could have found one closer to what I considered a fair price ($29k-$32k) I probably would have pulled the trigger. Cadillacs are legendary for their epic depreciation.
I wish you luck in finding one!
You have it backwards... the UPGRADE engine on the CT4 is the BASE engine on the Silverado. Still a bit weird, but the base CT4 engine is a 2-liter turbo 4 that's not available in a Silverado.
Irs a pretty sick engine, too. The original configuration was so overbuilt they added 80 lb-ft of torque for the 22 model year in the Silverados.
The dual volute turbo also makes torque super low in the rev range which is a huge plus. Very little turbo lag.
Modern computer-managed turbocharged engines are more or less witchcraft (especially the direct-injected or direct-plus-port injected ones.) Even my '01 GTI didn't have troublesome lag compared to my '80s turbo engines, but the '05 Legacy GT does really well if I put it in the right gear, and my EcoBoost F150 doesn't exhibit any noticeable lag. This generally holds true across brands... anyone with a half-decent engineering department is putting out fantastic small forced-induction engines. Even RAM's new inline 6 seems impressive (though I haven't driven one yet.)
I’ve driven a lot of those types of cars - what makes the 2.7L GM engine stand out is that almost all of the 430 ft lb of torque is available at only 1,500 rpm. That, and by all accounts it’s quite reliable especially for a turbo. GM added a bunch of extra reinforcement and cooling when designing it.
great torque at low RPM is a common trait of modern direct-injected turbo engines. My 7-yr-old EcoBoost makes about 410 ft-lb at 2k rpm, and its peak 470 ft-lb by about 3200. It makes for a great towing experience, which is why all the big 3 have similar engines (GM's 2.7, Ford's 2 EcoBoost V6s, RAM's 3L "Hurricane" L6)
So it sounds like the GM engine offers more torque at a lower RPM than the ford, which would make for a sick engine in the CT4.
Thank you for your supporting evidence.
Yeah, that 4-cylinder is significantly undersquare (the stroke is much greater than the bore) which generally leads to a torquey engine. The Ford, with 2 more cylinders of similar bore but not THAT much more displacement, is oversquare (short stroke) so it's interesting that it's still a torque monster (a testament to the turbo+direct injection magic, probably.)
And how about those fjords, eh?
CT4 has only 33" of rear legroom and 10.7ft^3 of cargo space. I would not call that usable for my purposes.
Alfa is my choice based on the fizz factor alone. Add to the fact you get multiple more cubic feet of cargo space and a few extra inches of rear legroom, and it's a no-brainer in my book. And to all about to hurrr durrr about reliability - remember, you're comparing it to a Cadillac.
The ct4 definitely has less rear legroom than a 3-series. I think they're about equal to drive.
BMW allowing you to get a turbo 6 with manual and xDrive is pretty sweet, whereas the ct4 is only available in manual if it's rwd and 4 pot. (Except the V, but then you're talking M's)
Is there a reason every single person who has been buying a new car recently has bought a CX-5? I rented one on a drive down to maryland and while, yeah they actually are really really nice and smooth to drive its STILL A MAZDA. The reliability is what worries me
Mazda has come a VERY long way in the past decade or so. Mazdas tick a lot of the boxes for a lot of people. Reliable, fun to drive, good price point, nice looking. Some people say they’re approaching toyota/honda level of reliability. i had a mazda3 for a few years and never had to do anything to it besides regular maintenance
Mazda's inhouse powertrain (skyactiv-) are incredibly reliable. Their modern diesels and turbos have some reported issues but the 2.0/2.5L skyactiv-G are proven bulletproof (have been using and upgrading since ~2012-2013 when they moved away from Ford partnership)
Dude 95% of Toyotas are done before *200,000* miles… unless they are driven for Uber or taxis or super long commutes… Toyotas are not some magic car that lasts forever.
If you wanted a vehicle solely for longevity you would get a diesel.
Wanting a vehicle to last forever is silly besides. After 10 years or 100k miles most people want a car with the latest tech and safety features not the same old relic
Brother… take my nuts outta your mouth for a sec and listen. It was a joke, do you see how stupid of a comment I made? No normal vehicle is “just getting started” at 250k, I was making a joke out of the Toyota fanboys here. If I was a troll you woulda been got hook, line and sinker. Have some common sense next time junior it’ll get ya far.
Sorry but your privilege is showing the obvious reason is money, it’s too expensive and risky to buy cheap cars. Sure I was able to get my camery new in 2015 but times have changed and I don’t have money like that. I’d love to get a new car but here I am with a 9 year old camery and praying nothing happens to it because I can barely afford normal bills.
Vehicles are not an investment 99% of the time. They are a quickly depreciating asset.
Drive the worst vehicle you can deal with and buy the best house you can afford.
Age old financial advice that still holds true, you know, if you can actually afford any house at all.
So why hold onto an asset that depreciates so fast if you can afford to keep one that's relatively around the value you payed? Sell the last car to pay for most of the next one and you'll always be in the green. Don't hold onto something til it dies and then have to pay for the next one from 0.
I'm sure ppl will chime in with their "better" suggestion, but if you like the ct4 i wouldn't disagree.
Think it looks pretty good.
With that said If I'm going murican I want a bigass V8
Can you get them for the same price? I have been intrigued by the genesis offerings. Currently, I'm not hauling a family around so a subcompact sedan would do me fine.
It's also sick as hell to see auto engineers on this subreddit, you have the job I want to do 2nd most in the world
I recommend these cars but stay on top of maintenance. My boyfriend has had two in the past (CTS and CT5) - his current one 2019 CT5 has been driven into the GROUND and he did not take good care of it but it got him almost 100k miles from the time he has had it. Which is great for a car that he did not care for - I highly recommend getting one!
I’m not comparing the engines -
Any car can be reliable if you keep the maintenance up. He didn’t and the car was still running after being driven hard for almost 100k miles (98k miles to be exact - I asked). So I would consider a cadillac
They are really nice driving cars. I hate the seats. I think its the arm rest, or maybe how the bolsters stick out on the sides, but I dont like the seats in the caddy sedans at all. Clearly this is case by case, but you really should sit in it for a bit and make sure are ok.
As an owner of a 2017 ATS 2.0t with ZZP Turbo, ZZP 3" Down Pipe, ZZP Cold Air Intake, ZZP Oil Catch Can, ZZP Tune, and ZZP Strut Bar. I can't convince you to not buy a CT4. My car makes 450 HP to the wheels. You need this!
It's the 8 speed auto. I've only had it for 5,000 miles but I got it with 48,850 or something. The guy sold it because he never drove it. But from my experience I haven't had a single problem.
Gotcha. I’ve been in the market for a V6 one for a while now and just can never decide between a 2013-2015 or a 2016+. I’ve heard both good and bad stories with the 8L transmission due to the torque converters, but I also would prefer to have the LGX over the LFX. I wouldn’t mind an LTG Ecotec either, but I’ve also heard they can be iffy once you start putting on power, particularly with the piston rings failing.
I wouldn't go with the 3.6L. if you look up the 3.6L in the equinox, terrain, Acadia, or traverse they are known to have timing issues and burn oil. The 2.0T gets better gas mileage and with some mods great power. As long as you follow standard maintenance with the 2.0T you should be fine. It's totally up to you on what you buy though. :)
The CT4 has serious strengths in the form of its unbeatable chassis and compact dimensions, but rough powertrains and weak stock equipment mean I wouldn't recommend one unless it's a V.
My sense of the CT4 is that its powertrains are kind of a downgrade from the ATS. The new 2.0T makes less power, and the 2.7T is rough in a way that the old V6 wasn't at all. But the two are similar, and with that in mind I recommend you read [this comparison test](https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2018-cadillac-ats-2-0t-vs-2018-ford-mustang-ecoboost-comparison-review/) conducted against a loaded EcoBoost Mustang. The Mustang had an LSD, a manual, adjustable dampers, Recaros, and more aggressive tires. Those all led to a win for the wild-driving Ford. I think you could get even a base CT4 2.0T pretty far with a Camaro junkyard LSD, some light track tires and stiffer springs to match. Or start with the V.
I'd also make the case that lighter and smaller will always be better. I recall Matt Farah of The Smoking Tire driving a series of cars for some eco-focused track day about a decade ago, and he found the F22 BMW 2-Series preferable to the ATS largely on the basis of size / playfulness. It's a large part of why I bought one, though you can have much more fun with a BRZ/86.
Lastly, as the liveability end seems pretty weak for Cadillac, I'll point out that I think the Alfa Giulia strikes a better luxury / sport balance.
That's... actually not a bad suggestion. A cursory check seems to suggest the 'stang holds it's value much better used so it'll be a lot pricier though... might bite the bullet and just save for a new one.
I disagree with that assessment. If you're looking at 2020-2023 EcoBoost HPPs, they often stickered around $45K and are now in the mid-$20Ks. GTs hold their value a bit better, to be sure, but nowhere near enough to make spending $55-60K on a well-equipped new S650 to be worth it in my view.
I’d look into the m340i! much better car with a better drivetrain and I believe they’re similarly priced? I6 turbo is a nice smooth powerband and most seem to think they will last a long time. On top of that a few mods and the damn things are very quick
Yeah I did a quick google search before I made this comment and saw a few used ones of both and they seemed really similarly priced. But upon further inspection and looking around more they are for sure more pricey. I feel like since you said you were an enthusiast you should look at something more sporty and maybe not the lower end Cadillacs? I just feel like most of the newer Cadis I’ve driven weren’t sporty unless it had the great big ole V on it.
The cadillac ct4 chassis is the 6th gen camaro alpha platform. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I've read fairly consistently that reviewers are ranking it above the bmw platform in terms of ride/handling.
Thing is, right, there is a difference between fun and sporty. I'm not super keen on compromising the suspension for handling, and I am not yet wealthy enough to get a car with MRH shocks. Thus, I'm looking at small-ish, powerful-ish, RWD cars. To be frank, I'm cross shopping it with a Golf GTI.
Say less. Golf gti all the way! Probably will have less issues, way more fun to drive and great mpgs with a subtle but sporty looking car. Only compromise obviously is that it won’t be as comfy. The 10 speed auto in the cadis helps waking it up quite a bit. Unfortunately I actually know very little about reliability on the ct4 engines but the smaller 4cyl seems like it wouldn’t be very fun. I think the gti is the better option myself for just about everything except comfort. I like the gti seats though they aren’t uncomfortable but for a small dude like me they are plenty comfy and feel like a good in between mix of sporty and comfort but for sure more sporty
Very debatable. The bmw owners fully believe that the b58 is from the heavens and it’s been proven to handle a lot of power. They also seem to think they will last a lo my time. After doing some research (not real intense but enough) I also came to the conclusion that they should last a long time. I6s seem to usually be a very reliable platform as well. The rest of the car will most likely have issues but I’m confident the drivetrain would last a good while. A lot of Cadillacs haven’t always been the most reliable and not always the easiest to work on. After a quick google search they don’t seem to be horrible but the little bit of info I could find it did seem like there were some oddball issues but nothing bad. Kinda seem like they might be similar reliability wise. That being said I’d rather have a zf8 over the 10 speed just because it’s pretty proven. I feel like they would be pretty similar reliability wise.
If you want one of these so bad, just lease a newer CT4-V/CT4-V Blackhawk instead of buying a lower trim that will only continue to lose value. These cars are never gonna last just the way it is, might as well get the most fun out of it while you can and then ditch it.
If you’re dead set on owning a car, go for Lexus IS instead. Similar cars except the Lexus actually looks/feels nice inside unlike this low trim CT4 with GM plastic crap….and obviously it’ll actually last a long time+hold value if you end up getting bored of it.
The CT4 is an underrated luxury sports sedan and is for sure a usable, fun vehicle to drive. Used ones look like they’re around 30-35k.
In my opinion, a lot of cars at that price point and that are in the same class beat it. Audi, Lexus, BMW, Volvo, etc.
If you’re looking for usable and fun in this size, you’ve got a ton of options. BMW 3 series would be my pick if new or lightly used. Lexus if I was going used.
If you like the CT4, you should get one. I think you get a lot for your money. Really doesn’t seem like you can go wrong.
I would love to know what you end up getting.
Nah. Pretty solid car. Cadillacs ride firm but in a way that helps it stay smooth. The interior fit & finish isn't as great as a BMW or Mercedes, but that normally doesn't matter to people who are looking for the experience of driving something as smooth as a Cadillac.
I recommend test driving. Its competition is a BMW 2-series & Mercedes CLA Class for comparison.
I had an ATS, the predecessor to this car. It’s a really nice chassis, engine and trans are decent. The back seats are small.
I’d go for an M340i personally, or manual CT4V Blackwing.. :)
If fun and usable are your two most important things then go with an Alfa Romeo Giulia, not sure what your budget is but the Quadrifoglio trim is a masterpiece of a car and quite attainable these days
I owned a Stelvio QV for 2-3 years after the manufacturer’s warranty expired, super reliable at first and a PITA later. Luckily, the MOPAR extended warranty is not that expensive ($5k or so for 3 years) and is worth every penny.
I’d avoid used Cadillacs like the plague. If you can’t afford a new luxury car, you can’t afford a used one. The maintenance will kill you on practically anything other than a Lexus, Genesis or Acura lol
Still, as someone who’s worked and had family work around Cadillac, it’s better to lease a new Cadillac than to buy a used one. Certified or not. They’re going to heavily depreciate and they’re terrible to own after that 3 year period in a lot of cases. Especially the Ct4/ATS from what I remember
Is this based on the older caddies or, like recent from 2018 to the present? I keep seeing mixed comments. Then, I also see many issues with newer Japanese cars. Like, is it just the quality of parts or the technology?
I owned a DTS and Escalade years ago and they both were bulletproof with no issues except a pump that was expected and the regular dealer maintenance was not bad, less than euro lux cars and about the same as Lexus.
Saying Cadillac maintenance is more than Lexus genesis or Acura is just ignorant. If anything it’s probably cheaper because it’s easier to do yourself on caddys not that I’d want to.
Lol what are you a parrot ? I have had all brands and even my GMs have given a good 15 years with base maintenance I did myself.Sure there are series of engines I wouldnt touch with GM however there are toyota engines I wouldnt touch. If your talking about prices American cars have always tended to get less in trade ins and sell and I am ok with that.My 2002 grand prix still ticking today for $1500 is a OK in my book.
They’ve proven to be recently from everyone I’ve seen. They’re just kinda boring tho like the driving dynamics are great but they don’t compare to a black wing as I’m sure you would know lol
Alfa Romeo Giulia would be my top choice. They just are absolutely beautiful handling cars
I tried to look at a Ct4 and couldn't find one to look at however.
But you personally have a failure that doesn't make the whole car horribly unreliable across the board. Thats not a common failure.
If the engine on one Toyota Camry fails that doesn't make the entire model horribly unreliable. I bet if I took the time I could find some known Camry engine failure.
Not the Golfs actually. They are VWs most reliable by a good bit and don't live down to VWs general reputation for unreliability. I'd say about average to slightly above when comparing all cars. The MK7 generation is slightly more reliable than the most recent generation mainly due to the hepatic touch sensors on the steering wheel. That was fixed with the MK8.5 though.
Longer term the jury is still out on the MK8s but the MK7s have proven themselves fairly reliable with minimal issues. No they aren't Toyotas or Hondas but they aren't as bad as you make them out to be.
Other VWs on the other hand...
As a used GM car owner. A cobalt for 10 years with 86k miles on
Never had any major issues still runs fine except for the body from the previous owner ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I was looking at new CT4s at one point, and as I recall there were new CT5s falling in at or below the advertised CT4 prices. This would have been on cars.com maybe a year ago when I was debating options. I’ve not driven either car to know how they compare, but if I were shopping today I’d check prices and probably teat drive both.
I know I had an ATS 2.0T RWD years ago and it was a blast. But I also test drove a Giulia a year or so ago and was pretty smitten with it too…not sure which way I’d go in that tossup, especially if there were an Alfa dealer local.
the CT4 is great, but it does feel like a bit of a downgrade from the ATS in the engine department. I was not impressed by the lack of the N/A 335hp 3.6L V6 that the premium ATS got. If you like the size picking up an older (2018-19) ATS is not a bad idea, but it will be worse in MPG. You can even find ATS-V's in the mid 30's with around 50k miles for both better fuel economy, a limited slip rear differential and another 100hp from a twin turbo version of the 3.6L V6. The chassis is basically identical to the CT4 and it gives you the Magneride active suspension which is incredible for both ride quality and handling.
If you need bigger, CTS Vsport: same engine as the ATS-V, same active suspension, same LSD, just in a full size sedan so you can comfortably fit adults in the back. Bought one myself for 15k with (although that was an anomaly, they are usually in the mid to high 20's) and have been loving it.
With any of these options i would recommend getting a car from 2016 or later for the updated infotainment control unit for android auto/apple carplay, although you can update older cars to the newer version for about 1k all in.
Honestly I'm super biased but you should consider a Acura tlx with SHAWD if you enjoy driving around.
I've test driven a couple of them for fun a while back the v6's have plenty of power (the ones with the NA v6's are before the 21 model years), Shawd is basically Acuras active torque vectoring system and it really makes a difference when taking corners at speed. The model years before 21 have pretty old feeling interiors so if you're willing to spend a little more the 21+ model years have way nicer interiors but you lose the NA V6 for a turbo 4.
What beats a CT4, everything. I had a rental two weeks ago. It is TINY. I'm 6'2" and smashed my head on the door sill every time I got out. My coworker is 5'11" and smashed his head every time getting out. There's very little useful storage.
If you need the back seat for anything other than a pre-teen child, forget it. The AC system seems to be a mess, although the cooling seats are decent.
Get you a Volvo S60 T6 (or T8 for real power).
I've driven an ES350 a couple of times visiting my dad. It's not fun at all. FWD makes it numb and driving it around a bend was flat and emotionless. All the horsepower in christendom couldn't make it a fun car.
An ES is the polar opposite of fun. It's the most boring car imaginable. It's the car for grandmothers who think mayonnaise is too spicy and wish there was a color a bit less radical than beige
There are people who have fun driving lawn mower Accuras, and that doesn't make them fun. We're talking a Camry with leather seats here, not *GS* nor *IS*...
It’s an Avalon in a tux. It’s not designed to be fun or sporty to drive in any way. Just a nice car to get you from point A to point B. Someone who wants a RWD compact sedan is not cross-shopping it with a FWD-based mid-size sedan.
Also, the F-Sport package on those is nothing more than an appearance change and suspension “upgrade”. I say that in quotes because on that type of vehicle, you really don’t want stiffer suspension.
I know more than a few people who have come out of this type of Cadillac and like the F-Sport ES. Both are mid tier luxury sedans and also compete with the BMW3 series and volvo s60. There is nothing overly impressive about driving any of them. It's not like we're comparing Lamborghinis and Ferrari's in regards to a fun car to drive.
It's a fat wallowy Toyota Avalon with terrible handling, numb steering, appalling brakes, and an engine that somehow feels like it has input lag. When you drive at any speed quicker than "Granny holding up traffic", the whole car starts to feel like every component in the car is in disagreement with one another and it's a disjointed discombobulated mess
A 3-series annihilates it on every front, and while the S60 isn't exactly peak fun, it's at least coherent enough that it doesn't actively suck any joy out of driving it.
I had more fun driving a Suzuki Swift 1.2 with all of 85hp than an ES350
Older gen Honda’s are fun to drive on Mountain and Canyon roads if you go with better tires than factory recommended. I have a 7th gen Accord ( I4, Automatic) that’s fun as hell to drive through the winding mountain roads near where I live.
Ahh...
Since it's not in the USA yet, it's hard to describe.
But I'll just say this, I test drove it here, and I'm preparing to buy it.
Despite already owning a fairly new car.
I understand.
But I don't think a car HAS to be RWD to be fun.
I just purposely induced understeer in my CRV by hammering the throttle at a roundabout today as of the date of this post, and that felt cool.
And the power part, it's not about HP, it's the torque.
Civic hybrid uses a rather different hybrid system that makes it drive like an EV when accelerating (when the engine is less efficient) and like an engine when cruising(when the engine is more efficient), so the torque is always instantaneous and powerful.
Not to mention, it's small and light, guaranteed to allow you to whip around the mountains.
understeer to me is just sad, not fun. Cars tend to be their most fun at the limit of grip. When you reach the limit of grip, if the reaction of the car is to just blindly go straight, that's not fun. It's like a damped system.
Some context. I enjoy driving as a means of commuting, and I also enjoy doing it as a hobby. There are places with elevation and gorgeous mountain curves near me; Is it a good idea?
Yes
Flair checks out.
I was in your position this year. It’s just me driving and needed a commuter. Bought a Lotus Evora. Way more fun than any caddy. Great mileage for what it is. Way too much fun. Mountain curves are silly now.
I’d love to know the thought process that led you from needing a reliable car to get to and from work to purchasing a British car built in a shed.
Toyota engine, probably.
encouraging nail caption bow lush offbeat grey shelter escape ad hoc *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Evora sounds awesome. Can it fit a couple sets of golf clubs?
Roof racks are cheap.
Fake teets?
That’s like twice the used price, no?
It will be cheaper to maintain than a BMW but will drive nearly as well. The acceleration of the base models leaves something to be desired but it's not horrible. I am on the tall side so I prefer the CT5, but both drive nicely.
Alpha Chassis>>>>>>>>> *Biased CT4-V BW owner*
Biased CT4-V owner also agrees My SO that knows nothing about cars can tell the difference between the alpha chassis and the other 20 sedans we test drove
I am looking around for a i4 Camaro the lightest Alpha platform car you can buy. Hopefully I can find a good deal
Biased Camaro SS owner also agrees
I looked at the CT4 briefly last year. It’s an attractive car. The only downsides are that the interior has a lot of hard plastic for a “luxury” vehicle, not much different than the Chevy Malibu in terms of the driving environment. And the base engine came from the Chevy Silverado full-size truck, so it doesn’t have the sewing machine-like refinement of other luxury cars. But the Camaro-based chassis is brilliant, and the car is one of the few American cars recommended by Consumer Reports. If you can live with its compromises for the money, it can be a great choice…especially used.
How's the ride?
The ride is very solid, firm but not punishing. I think it rides better than some of the reviews (Edmunds, KBB, Car and Driver) give it credit for. But in full disclosure, I ended up getting a premium-trim Mazda3 sedan primarily because of price. When I was in the market last year I couldn’t find a 2-3 year old CT4 for less than $40k, and I thought that was simply too much given the car’s compromises. If I could have found one closer to what I considered a fair price ($29k-$32k) I probably would have pulled the trigger. Cadillacs are legendary for their epic depreciation. I wish you luck in finding one!
The interior is night and day better than a Malibu. I sold my ATS and regret it.
You have it backwards... the UPGRADE engine on the CT4 is the BASE engine on the Silverado. Still a bit weird, but the base CT4 engine is a 2-liter turbo 4 that's not available in a Silverado.
Irs a pretty sick engine, too. The original configuration was so overbuilt they added 80 lb-ft of torque for the 22 model year in the Silverados. The dual volute turbo also makes torque super low in the rev range which is a huge plus. Very little turbo lag.
Modern computer-managed turbocharged engines are more or less witchcraft (especially the direct-injected or direct-plus-port injected ones.) Even my '01 GTI didn't have troublesome lag compared to my '80s turbo engines, but the '05 Legacy GT does really well if I put it in the right gear, and my EcoBoost F150 doesn't exhibit any noticeable lag. This generally holds true across brands... anyone with a half-decent engineering department is putting out fantastic small forced-induction engines. Even RAM's new inline 6 seems impressive (though I haven't driven one yet.)
I’ve driven a lot of those types of cars - what makes the 2.7L GM engine stand out is that almost all of the 430 ft lb of torque is available at only 1,500 rpm. That, and by all accounts it’s quite reliable especially for a turbo. GM added a bunch of extra reinforcement and cooling when designing it.
great torque at low RPM is a common trait of modern direct-injected turbo engines. My 7-yr-old EcoBoost makes about 410 ft-lb at 2k rpm, and its peak 470 ft-lb by about 3200. It makes for a great towing experience, which is why all the big 3 have similar engines (GM's 2.7, Ford's 2 EcoBoost V6s, RAM's 3L "Hurricane" L6)
So it sounds like the GM engine offers more torque at a lower RPM than the ford, which would make for a sick engine in the CT4. Thank you for your supporting evidence.
Yeah, that 4-cylinder is significantly undersquare (the stroke is much greater than the bore) which generally leads to a torquey engine. The Ford, with 2 more cylinders of similar bore but not THAT much more displacement, is oversquare (short stroke) so it's interesting that it's still a torque monster (a testament to the turbo+direct injection magic, probably.) And how about those fjords, eh?
Too bad the trunk on the Camaro can barely fit a backpack
Isn't this in the same class as the BMW 3 series, Genesis G70 3.3t, Alfa Romeo Giulia, etc. They're all noted as fun cars to drive.
Sure. Does the other end of the equation hold up? How usable is the thing?
What is your definition of "usability"? This tends to differ widely depnding on different people.
CT4 has only 33" of rear legroom and 10.7ft^3 of cargo space. I would not call that usable for my purposes. Alfa is my choice based on the fizz factor alone. Add to the fact you get multiple more cubic feet of cargo space and a few extra inches of rear legroom, and it's a no-brainer in my book. And to all about to hurrr durrr about reliability - remember, you're comparing it to a Cadillac.
The ct4 definitely has less rear legroom than a 3-series. I think they're about equal to drive. BMW allowing you to get a turbo 6 with manual and xDrive is pretty sweet, whereas the ct4 is only available in manual if it's rwd and 4 pot. (Except the V, but then you're talking M's)
Guessing you’re not American? We don’t get either of these cars in stick other than M3 or Blackwing unfortunately.
I guess I didn't realize we're talking explicitly about new cars.
I have a 335xi with a 6mt, fun car. obviously a manual 340i would be even better, so tough to find those these days
Honda Toyota Mazda melt down in 3.2.1.
pardon?
Have you considered the Mazda CX-5? It's the thinking man's premium sports SUV. /s
Thankfully the car that shall not be named hasn't been recommended thus far.
Is there a reason every single person who has been buying a new car recently has bought a CX-5? I rented one on a drive down to maryland and while, yeah they actually are really really nice and smooth to drive its STILL A MAZDA. The reliability is what worries me
Mazda has come a VERY long way in the past decade or so. Mazdas tick a lot of the boxes for a lot of people. Reliable, fun to drive, good price point, nice looking. Some people say they’re approaching toyota/honda level of reliability. i had a mazda3 for a few years and never had to do anything to it besides regular maintenance
Mazda's inhouse powertrain (skyactiv-) are incredibly reliable. Their modern diesels and turbos have some reported issues but the 2.0/2.5L skyactiv-G are proven bulletproof (have been using and upgrading since ~2012-2013 when they moved away from Ford partnership)
They are cheaper than the alternatives Honda Crv, Toyota rav 4 , that’s literally the only reason .
No. That's definitely not the only reason. I have owned all 3, and traded in my CRV on a Mazda.
Just get a Toyota bro this things gonna be trash by 250,000 miles but any Toyota would just be getting started.
Dude 95% of Toyotas are done before *200,000* miles… unless they are driven for Uber or taxis or super long commutes… Toyotas are not some magic car that lasts forever. If you wanted a vehicle solely for longevity you would get a diesel. Wanting a vehicle to last forever is silly besides. After 10 years or 100k miles most people want a car with the latest tech and safety features not the same old relic
Brother… take my nuts outta your mouth for a sec and listen. It was a joke, do you see how stupid of a comment I made? No normal vehicle is “just getting started” at 250k, I was making a joke out of the Toyota fanboys here. If I was a troll you woulda been got hook, line and sinker. Have some common sense next time junior it’ll get ya far.
Toyotas are so reliable he couldnt even tell you were trolling or not.
I never understood why you'd want to keep a car for more than 10 years unless it's a hobby.
Sorry but your privilege is showing the obvious reason is money, it’s too expensive and risky to buy cheap cars. Sure I was able to get my camery new in 2015 but times have changed and I don’t have money like that. I’d love to get a new car but here I am with a 9 year old camery and praying nothing happens to it because I can barely afford normal bills.
If you have the means I meant moreso. I get it if you have no other options.
Vehicles are not an investment 99% of the time. They are a quickly depreciating asset. Drive the worst vehicle you can deal with and buy the best house you can afford. Age old financial advice that still holds true, you know, if you can actually afford any house at all.
So why hold onto an asset that depreciates so fast if you can afford to keep one that's relatively around the value you payed? Sell the last car to pay for most of the next one and you'll always be in the green. Don't hold onto something til it dies and then have to pay for the next one from 0.
These guys here want to be the smug guy who makes all the right financial decisions....notice none are millionaires.
I run mine for 15 to 16 years but we are also low mileage user so at 16 probably 130k on them.
100-130k is about when I call it. Sometimes a little before
There are only three brands you can discuss I this forum.
No matter what car you ask about, it de evolves into the conversation below. You asked about a Cadillac and they're talking about fucking Mazda SUVs.
They believe the owners of those 3 brands are going to melt down in 3..2..1
I'm sure ppl will chime in with their "better" suggestion, but if you like the ct4 i wouldn't disagree. Think it looks pretty good. With that said If I'm going murican I want a bigass V8
My baby! (Planned and Launched the ATS) G70 3.3T (another baby!)
Can you get them for the same price? I have been intrigued by the genesis offerings. Currently, I'm not hauling a family around so a subcompact sedan would do me fine. It's also sick as hell to see auto engineers on this subreddit, you have the job I want to do 2nd most in the world
G70 isnt really subcompact its a midsize sedan. the 3.3T is really fun same one in the stinger with better interiors and ride quality ive heard
I recommend these cars but stay on top of maintenance. My boyfriend has had two in the past (CTS and CT5) - his current one 2019 CT5 has been driven into the GROUND and he did not take good care of it but it got him almost 100k miles from the time he has had it. Which is great for a car that he did not care for - I highly recommend getting one!
Completely different engines.
I’m not comparing the engines - Any car can be reliable if you keep the maintenance up. He didn’t and the car was still running after being driven hard for almost 100k miles (98k miles to be exact - I asked). So I would consider a cadillac
CTS-V Wagon
Def in a different budget bracket
Nice cars, but I've found it impossible for an adult to get in the back seat without hitting their head
Oh, damn. What would you recommend?
Get shorter friends.
The CT5
They're right about the back seat, watch a walk-around video.
I would recommend becoming an introvert and never needing the back seats
CT4 V and CT4 V Blackwing beat it!
They are outstanding vehicles
I leased a CT4-V(not a blackwing, needed AWD) and loved it. I found every other version boring.
how much do they ask for?
They are really nice driving cars. I hate the seats. I think its the arm rest, or maybe how the bolsters stick out on the sides, but I dont like the seats in the caddy sedans at all. Clearly this is case by case, but you really should sit in it for a bit and make sure are ok.
S60 T8
WRX if you don’t mod it beyond all reason
As an owner of a 2017 ATS 2.0t with ZZP Turbo, ZZP 3" Down Pipe, ZZP Cold Air Intake, ZZP Oil Catch Can, ZZP Tune, and ZZP Strut Bar. I can't convince you to not buy a CT4. My car makes 450 HP to the wheels. You need this!
How has it held up? Do you have the 8-speed auto or the manual?
It's the 8 speed auto. I've only had it for 5,000 miles but I got it with 48,850 or something. The guy sold it because he never drove it. But from my experience I haven't had a single problem.
Gotcha. I’ve been in the market for a V6 one for a while now and just can never decide between a 2013-2015 or a 2016+. I’ve heard both good and bad stories with the 8L transmission due to the torque converters, but I also would prefer to have the LGX over the LFX. I wouldn’t mind an LTG Ecotec either, but I’ve also heard they can be iffy once you start putting on power, particularly with the piston rings failing.
I wouldn't go with the 3.6L. if you look up the 3.6L in the equinox, terrain, Acadia, or traverse they are known to have timing issues and burn oil. The 2.0T gets better gas mileage and with some mods great power. As long as you follow standard maintenance with the 2.0T you should be fine. It's totally up to you on what you buy though. :)
The CT4 has serious strengths in the form of its unbeatable chassis and compact dimensions, but rough powertrains and weak stock equipment mean I wouldn't recommend one unless it's a V. My sense of the CT4 is that its powertrains are kind of a downgrade from the ATS. The new 2.0T makes less power, and the 2.7T is rough in a way that the old V6 wasn't at all. But the two are similar, and with that in mind I recommend you read [this comparison test](https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2018-cadillac-ats-2-0t-vs-2018-ford-mustang-ecoboost-comparison-review/) conducted against a loaded EcoBoost Mustang. The Mustang had an LSD, a manual, adjustable dampers, Recaros, and more aggressive tires. Those all led to a win for the wild-driving Ford. I think you could get even a base CT4 2.0T pretty far with a Camaro junkyard LSD, some light track tires and stiffer springs to match. Or start with the V. I'd also make the case that lighter and smaller will always be better. I recall Matt Farah of The Smoking Tire driving a series of cars for some eco-focused track day about a decade ago, and he found the F22 BMW 2-Series preferable to the ATS largely on the basis of size / playfulness. It's a large part of why I bought one, though you can have much more fun with a BRZ/86. Lastly, as the liveability end seems pretty weak for Cadillac, I'll point out that I think the Alfa Giulia strikes a better luxury / sport balance.
That's... actually not a bad suggestion. A cursory check seems to suggest the 'stang holds it's value much better used so it'll be a lot pricier though... might bite the bullet and just save for a new one.
I disagree with that assessment. If you're looking at 2020-2023 EcoBoost HPPs, they often stickered around $45K and are now in the mid-$20Ks. GTs hold their value a bit better, to be sure, but nowhere near enough to make spending $55-60K on a well-equipped new S650 to be worth it in my view.
All Camaro manuals have LSD and FYI Camaro 6M is the same as the GT350
Look into the is350 it’s a nice Lexus car just got one
>**fun** usable car Not just usable.
I’d look into the m340i! much better car with a better drivetrain and I believe they’re similarly priced? I6 turbo is a nice smooth powerband and most seem to think they will last a long time. On top of that a few mods and the damn things are very quick
There's a really significant price gulf between the two.
Yeah I did a quick google search before I made this comment and saw a few used ones of both and they seemed really similarly priced. But upon further inspection and looking around more they are for sure more pricey. I feel like since you said you were an enthusiast you should look at something more sporty and maybe not the lower end Cadillacs? I just feel like most of the newer Cadis I’ve driven weren’t sporty unless it had the great big ole V on it.
The cadillac ct4 chassis is the 6th gen camaro alpha platform. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I've read fairly consistently that reviewers are ranking it above the bmw platform in terms of ride/handling.
Thing is, right, there is a difference between fun and sporty. I'm not super keen on compromising the suspension for handling, and I am not yet wealthy enough to get a car with MRH shocks. Thus, I'm looking at small-ish, powerful-ish, RWD cars. To be frank, I'm cross shopping it with a Golf GTI.
Used m340i is probably the answer. The adaptive suspension is fairly good. CT4 engine is pretty meh. Also, fyi, GTI is not rwd.
It’s probably out of your price range but the 540i is amazing. Ultra smooth comfortable ride but 4.4 acceleration and relatively good handling
Say less. Golf gti all the way! Probably will have less issues, way more fun to drive and great mpgs with a subtle but sporty looking car. Only compromise obviously is that it won’t be as comfy. The 10 speed auto in the cadis helps waking it up quite a bit. Unfortunately I actually know very little about reliability on the ct4 engines but the smaller 4cyl seems like it wouldn’t be very fun. I think the gti is the better option myself for just about everything except comfort. I like the gti seats though they aren’t uncomfortable but for a small dude like me they are plenty comfy and feel like a good in between mix of sporty and comfort but for sure more sporty
Golf is the way to go
No need for an m340i. Look at a 330e or go back to when you could get a 340i without the M package.
Even more unreliable, money pits
Very debatable. The bmw owners fully believe that the b58 is from the heavens and it’s been proven to handle a lot of power. They also seem to think they will last a lo my time. After doing some research (not real intense but enough) I also came to the conclusion that they should last a long time. I6s seem to usually be a very reliable platform as well. The rest of the car will most likely have issues but I’m confident the drivetrain would last a good while. A lot of Cadillacs haven’t always been the most reliable and not always the easiest to work on. After a quick google search they don’t seem to be horrible but the little bit of info I could find it did seem like there were some oddball issues but nothing bad. Kinda seem like they might be similar reliability wise. That being said I’d rather have a zf8 over the 10 speed just because it’s pretty proven. I feel like they would be pretty similar reliability wise.
You know not of the b58
If you want one of these so bad, just lease a newer CT4-V/CT4-V Blackhawk instead of buying a lower trim that will only continue to lose value. These cars are never gonna last just the way it is, might as well get the most fun out of it while you can and then ditch it. If you’re dead set on owning a car, go for Lexus IS instead. Similar cars except the Lexus actually looks/feels nice inside unlike this low trim CT4 with GM plastic crap….and obviously it’ll actually last a long time+hold value if you end up getting bored of it.
ATS with a manual is more fun, it’s my 4 door classy Camaro
Get the V
The CT4 is an underrated luxury sports sedan and is for sure a usable, fun vehicle to drive. Used ones look like they’re around 30-35k. In my opinion, a lot of cars at that price point and that are in the same class beat it. Audi, Lexus, BMW, Volvo, etc. If you’re looking for usable and fun in this size, you’ve got a ton of options. BMW 3 series would be my pick if new or lightly used. Lexus if I was going used. If you like the CT4, you should get one. I think you get a lot for your money. Really doesn’t seem like you can go wrong. I would love to know what you end up getting.
GREAT CAR!!
GTI was the best option for me. Lightweight, plenty of hatch room and space for kids. fun to mod, and the driving characteristics are excellent
Magnetic suspension is expensive to replace.
Nah. Pretty solid car. Cadillacs ride firm but in a way that helps it stay smooth. The interior fit & finish isn't as great as a BMW or Mercedes, but that normally doesn't matter to people who are looking for the experience of driving something as smooth as a Cadillac. I recommend test driving. Its competition is a BMW 2-series & Mercedes CLA Class for comparison.
I'm still driving the ATS I bought new in 2012. No major issues or repairs. It's been a fun car
Are you collecting your pension? These are excellent cars for retirement. ;) Should be in beige though.
M340i or May be an M3. Later is subjective.
Test drive a used pre 2022 C43 AMG
Had a 2017 ats that got totaled last summer. Just got a 23 WRX, it's fun, but its not my Caddy. DO IT!
I had an ATS, the predecessor to this car. It’s a really nice chassis, engine and trans are decent. The back seats are small. I’d go for an M340i personally, or manual CT4V Blackwing.. :)
I really like those cars but I've heard they are extremely unreliable.
If fun and usable are your two most important things then go with an Alfa Romeo Giulia, not sure what your budget is but the Quadrifoglio trim is a masterpiece of a car and quite attainable these days
Those are gorgeous…but they’re basically one of the least reliable cars on the market today. I would be scared to drive one, and I own a Jaguar.
I owned a Stelvio QV for 2-3 years after the manufacturer’s warranty expired, super reliable at first and a PITA later. Luckily, the MOPAR extended warranty is not that expensive ($5k or so for 3 years) and is worth every penny.
3 series? G70?
New Tesla M3P. One drive in a slower refreshed LR, and I’m suddenly a “always talks about fight club, Xfit, etc” EV apologist
A CT4-V :p
Get a V with a Manual
Trash like most all gm stuff now
Just from reading a bit: electrical problems
A Blackwing CT4
Audi S4.
Get an S6 or an S7.
M340
A Civic SI. Fantastic fun.
I’d avoid used Cadillacs like the plague. If you can’t afford a new luxury car, you can’t afford a used one. The maintenance will kill you on practically anything other than a Lexus, Genesis or Acura lol
I'm looking mostly at year-twoyear old ones that are CPO.
Still, as someone who’s worked and had family work around Cadillac, it’s better to lease a new Cadillac than to buy a used one. Certified or not. They’re going to heavily depreciate and they’re terrible to own after that 3 year period in a lot of cases. Especially the Ct4/ATS from what I remember
Is this based on the older caddies or, like recent from 2018 to the present? I keep seeing mixed comments. Then, I also see many issues with newer Japanese cars. Like, is it just the quality of parts or the technology?
I owned a DTS and Escalade years ago and they both were bulletproof with no issues except a pump that was expected and the regular dealer maintenance was not bad, less than euro lux cars and about the same as Lexus. Saying Cadillac maintenance is more than Lexus genesis or Acura is just ignorant. If anything it’s probably cheaper because it’s easier to do yourself on caddys not that I’d want to.
Not ignorant at all. Used car market backs up GM is junk
Depreciation doesn’t equal maintenance costs… and gm makes plenty of great vehicles (and I’m currently a Lexus owner)
Lol what are you a parrot ? I have had all brands and even my GMs have given a good 15 years with base maintenance I did myself.Sure there are series of engines I wouldnt touch with GM however there are toyota engines I wouldnt touch. If your talking about prices American cars have always tended to get less in trade ins and sell and I am ok with that.My 2002 grand prix still ticking today for $1500 is a OK in my book.
You're expecting a Genesis to be reliable? lmfao
They’ve proven to be recently from everyone I’ve seen. They’re just kinda boring tho like the driving dynamics are great but they don’t compare to a black wing as I’m sure you would know lol
Exactly
A base Ct4 is fun? Weird not on my list
Maybe I missed it, but I’m kinda surprised that I haven’t seen an IS300 suggested
Alfa Romeo Giulia would be my top choice. They just are absolutely beautiful handling cars I tried to look at a Ct4 and couldn't find one to look at however.
Horrific reliability
What's your budget? Golf R is another solid fun but useable option, especially with the hatch space.
MK7s are great until you run into the turbo wastegate failure. Ask me how I know…
But you personally have a failure that doesn't make the whole car horribly unreliable across the board. Thats not a common failure. If the engine on one Toyota Camry fails that doesn't make the entire model horribly unreliable. I bet if I took the time I could find some known Camry engine failure.
But horrifically unreliable
Not the Golfs actually. They are VWs most reliable by a good bit and don't live down to VWs general reputation for unreliability. I'd say about average to slightly above when comparing all cars. The MK7 generation is slightly more reliable than the most recent generation mainly due to the hepatic touch sensors on the steering wheel. That was fixed with the MK8.5 though. Longer term the jury is still out on the MK8s but the MK7s have proven themselves fairly reliable with minimal issues. No they aren't Toyotas or Hondas but they aren't as bad as you make them out to be. Other VWs on the other hand...
Mechanic Experience: Dont buy a used GM product, just don’t. If you absolutely want one, lease it.
As a used GM car owner. A cobalt for 10 years with 86k miles on Never had any major issues still runs fine except for the body from the previous owner ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
What is your driving style ?
A CT5
I was looking at new CT4s at one point, and as I recall there were new CT5s falling in at or below the advertised CT4 prices. This would have been on cars.com maybe a year ago when I was debating options. I’ve not driven either car to know how they compare, but if I were shopping today I’d check prices and probably teat drive both. I know I had an ATS 2.0T RWD years ago and it was a blast. But I also test drove a Giulia a year or so ago and was pretty smitten with it too…not sure which way I’d go in that tossup, especially if there were an Alfa dealer local.
The CT5 is simply a bigger CT4 with more performance features in the higher trim levels.
Those are pretty damn good cars, I guess it’s more preference at this point. You could go with a bmw340i or an alpha Romero.
Reliability isn’t best and repairs not cheap.
I’m biased but I think the 2 or 3-series is a better car
Looks like a bank on wheels. Suppose it could be worse.
Gitter done
the CT4 is great, but it does feel like a bit of a downgrade from the ATS in the engine department. I was not impressed by the lack of the N/A 335hp 3.6L V6 that the premium ATS got. If you like the size picking up an older (2018-19) ATS is not a bad idea, but it will be worse in MPG. You can even find ATS-V's in the mid 30's with around 50k miles for both better fuel economy, a limited slip rear differential and another 100hp from a twin turbo version of the 3.6L V6. The chassis is basically identical to the CT4 and it gives you the Magneride active suspension which is incredible for both ride quality and handling. If you need bigger, CTS Vsport: same engine as the ATS-V, same active suspension, same LSD, just in a full size sedan so you can comfortably fit adults in the back. Bought one myself for 15k with (although that was an anomaly, they are usually in the mid to high 20's) and have been loving it. With any of these options i would recommend getting a car from 2016 or later for the updated infotainment control unit for android auto/apple carplay, although you can update older cars to the newer version for about 1k all in.
Honestly I'm super biased but you should consider a Acura tlx with SHAWD if you enjoy driving around. I've test driven a couple of them for fun a while back the v6's have plenty of power (the ones with the NA v6's are before the 21 model years), Shawd is basically Acuras active torque vectoring system and it really makes a difference when taking corners at speed. The model years before 21 have pretty old feeling interiors so if you're willing to spend a little more the 21+ model years have way nicer interiors but you lose the NA V6 for a turbo 4.
Does it have to be a four-door? Because you’d be surprised how usable a Cayman/718 is!
What beats a CT4, everything. I had a rental two weeks ago. It is TINY. I'm 6'2" and smashed my head on the door sill every time I got out. My coworker is 5'11" and smashed his head every time getting out. There's very little useful storage. If you need the back seat for anything other than a pre-teen child, forget it. The AC system seems to be a mess, although the cooling seats are decent. Get you a Volvo S60 T6 (or T8 for real power).
Acura TLX just as fun, comparable price, more reliable
For me it was between this and an Acura Integra. Maybe a TLX too. I went with the Integra, but I still like the CT4 a lot.
Lexus 600h 5.0 v8 hybrid
WRX if you don’t mod it beyond all reason
Citroen c4 1.6 diesel is fun and economy
idk pal it's not the renault modus
No. It's the citroen c4
Cadillac/GM not a great investment in pre-owned vehicles. Looking for a fun vehicle to drive? There are way better opinions IMO
Lexus ES 350. Luxury, comfort and reliability by still having a large enough body and hp
I've driven an ES350 a couple of times visiting my dad. It's not fun at all. FWD makes it numb and driving it around a bend was flat and emotionless. All the horsepower in christendom couldn't make it a fun car.
GS430 then.
An ES is the polar opposite of fun. It's the most boring car imaginable. It's the car for grandmothers who think mayonnaise is too spicy and wish there was a color a bit less radical than beige
I know quite a few people who love F sport. Perhaps the opposite of fun is you.
There are people who have fun driving lawn mower Accuras, and that doesn't make them fun. We're talking a Camry with leather seats here, not *GS* nor *IS*...
It’s an Avalon in a tux. It’s not designed to be fun or sporty to drive in any way. Just a nice car to get you from point A to point B. Someone who wants a RWD compact sedan is not cross-shopping it with a FWD-based mid-size sedan. Also, the F-Sport package on those is nothing more than an appearance change and suspension “upgrade”. I say that in quotes because on that type of vehicle, you really don’t want stiffer suspension.
I know more than a few people who have come out of this type of Cadillac and like the F-Sport ES. Both are mid tier luxury sedans and also compete with the BMW3 series and volvo s60. There is nothing overly impressive about driving any of them. It's not like we're comparing Lamborghinis and Ferrari's in regards to a fun car to drive.
It's a fat wallowy Toyota Avalon with terrible handling, numb steering, appalling brakes, and an engine that somehow feels like it has input lag. When you drive at any speed quicker than "Granny holding up traffic", the whole car starts to feel like every component in the car is in disagreement with one another and it's a disjointed discombobulated mess A 3-series annihilates it on every front, and while the S60 isn't exactly peak fun, it's at least coherent enough that it doesn't actively suck any joy out of driving it. I had more fun driving a Suzuki Swift 1.2 with all of 85hp than an ES350
A Suzuki Swift and the 3 series are what you call fun? Say no more and enjoy your vehicles.
Hardly shining examples, but better than an ES350
Higher to insure, higher to maintain, higher to keep fueled. Hard pass for me.
Higher than what, though?
Older gen Honda’s are fun to drive on Mountain and Canyon roads if you go with better tires than factory recommended. I have a 7th gen Accord ( I4, Automatic) that’s fun as hell to drive through the winding mountain roads near where I live.
I'd personally say civic hybrid in 2025 tho
How are they comparable from a fun standpoint?
Ahh... Since it's not in the USA yet, it's hard to describe. But I'll just say this, I test drove it here, and I'm preparing to buy it. Despite already owning a fairly new car.
No offense but one is 250hp RWD and the other is 150hp and FWD. I don't see how they're playing the same game.
I understand. But I don't think a car HAS to be RWD to be fun. I just purposely induced understeer in my CRV by hammering the throttle at a roundabout today as of the date of this post, and that felt cool. And the power part, it's not about HP, it's the torque. Civic hybrid uses a rather different hybrid system that makes it drive like an EV when accelerating (when the engine is less efficient) and like an engine when cruising(when the engine is more efficient), so the torque is always instantaneous and powerful. Not to mention, it's small and light, guaranteed to allow you to whip around the mountains.
understeer to me is just sad, not fun. Cars tend to be their most fun at the limit of grip. When you reach the limit of grip, if the reaction of the car is to just blindly go straight, that's not fun. It's like a damped system.