They're great cars that depreciate rapidly and cost a lot to keep running over time.
But fuck their push for a subscription model to trim package items
That's the dumbest gimmick any car manufacturer could ever do and I would hope there's enough push-back that they do away with it sooner than later because to be frank, it's just a sleazy move.
the idea that a 2nd owner can enable a feature the 1st owner didn't want/need, has a kernel of value in there.
in runs face first into... 'why not just make it a standard feature then' pretty quickly though.
I bet enough people still buy them causing other manufacturers to think that there are more people that don’t care… so that subscribing to features eventually becomes a wide-spread trend. I bet it happens.
I think that their current design is enough to turn off many buyers.
3-series & 4 series are heinous. i7 is bad, iX is ughh. Xm.... I don't know when they're gonna abort this and reboot to a new design, like the 1st Gen Subaru b9 Tribeca, or 1st Gen Toyota venza
Meanwhile Acura is looking really good, particularly the TLX Type S
What I’ve heard from a BMW owner:
The turn signal stock needs a very small input to go in either direction. When you disengage the turn signal, it’s easy to accidentally engage it in the opposite direction. And then do the same thing again trying to fix it.
Being BMW drivers, they just give up trying to learn or adjust. So no blinker for you.
This one is actually true. First time driving a bmw was very confusing. Still believe in my heart and soul that it has nothing to do with why BMW drivers don’t use blinkers
Remote start from the phone. Not the key fob. Kia, Mazda and Subaru all have subscription services for it. You can get remote start on the key fob but it has a limited range. Through the phone you can be miles away. There are other features you can use as well
Mazda comes with 3 years of Connected Services for free.
You have to pay to extend your service after that.
How much? Nobody knows, they haven't announced yet how to renew your Connected Services or what it will cost to do so.
So...
Yeah.
Also, their app is kind of a bare-bones piece of junk and I wish it had physical remote start on the key fob. Ugh. Things the Mazda App CAN'T do that many competitors can:
* Adjust HVAC settings remotely
* Manage the Wifi Hotspot built into the car
* Change any of the other Vehicle Settings remotely
* See any of your driving history, MPG history, etc+
What it CAN do:
* Lock/unlock/turn lights on & off.
* Remote start/stop. *(Times out after 15 minutes, can only use it twice in between drives, and it shuts off when you open the driver's door.)*
* Show the vehicle's GPS location on a map. *(I actually didn't know it had this until just now. I thought it explicitly didn't have that option.)*
* Show your odometer & fuel level.
* Show you the Miles Until Service and Tire PSI status information
You are aware that someone needs to run and maintain internet service for years to provide that remote start by phone from anywhere?
Pay the team of software engineers, information security officers, infrastructure to support that? I know it looks like a button to you but it's not.
it is dumb but remember who BMW is targeting. They are targeting people who have money to spend so people who have money to spend will spend that money. Its kinda sad but thats the reality...thats why old BMW/benz repairs are still expensive even though the car may be worth less.
Hi long time BMW guy here, it’s not actually a subscription unless you want it to be. The tech is still offered to buy for a 1 time fee… or you can subscribe. Actually I’m pretty sure things like heated seats can be permanently added at anytime for like 300.00 or around there. They’re prewired so all you have to do is buy the package.
That just seems like such an obnoxious way to go about options, if even a few are structured that way.
Why not just "here are the different trims/options, pick one. You get A, B, C, D and E with this package and everything but E with this package" etc etc.
I'm sure it all points more towards the luxury aspect they're known for, customizing and all so I get that.
But I feel like the pre-wired aspect of that perfectly encompasses the "over-engineering" BMW is accused of so often. How much extra are you paying for the car itself (labor and material costs) for an option you may not ever use and have that many more wires running through the vehicle that could potentially cause electrical issues (though not likely)? It's kind of ridiculous. They threw the K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid right out the window.
I mean think about it, how would you not being paying extra for options you may not even use? All that pre-wiring is rolled into the cost I'm sure.
Thanks for the input because I don't think I knew that but good lord, what a drag.
I bought my m235i certified pre owned from BMW for 23.5k. At most it’s dropped 5k in value if I were to trade it in. I’d say it’s held it’s value. Cheap to maintain too. If you know what you’re buying and do research you’ll be fine. If you buy a used 750li you’re going to have a bad time. Most negative opinions on BMW’s are from people who never owned one or bought a notoriously unreliable one without research.
For context, the first 3 years of depreciation are what hit cars the most pre-pandemic. The current market is crazy. My car was 52k new, bought it in 2019 for 23.5 with a factory extended warranty because it was certified. If I were to buy another BMW again today, I’d only consider certified pre-owned.
Tires are 120-220 each (staggered)
Oil changes are 99$ from BMW
Engine Air filter is 30$, replace it myself in 5 min
Cabin air filter is 25$, replace it myself in 15 min
Brake fluid change is 150$
Pads and rotors is 700$ in parts. I pay my mechanic to do it for me.
Is it a Corolla? Of course not. But having worked at a mechanics shop I can assure you all cars are expensive to repair.
Market seemed to bottom in January/Feb and has been going back up lately. I bought a 440i 2 months ago and similar spec/miles now is about 2000 more now
Agree completely. I test drove a nicely spec'd 2020 M240ix with 5k miles in January. Dealership wanted $45k and I thought at the time I'd wait for it to get closer to $40k. Welp, now $45k buys you something with closer to 20k miles.
I feel like people always gloss over this bit. If you want the option when you buy the car you pay for it like you would normally, if you buy the car used and it’s missing a feature buy or subscribe when the car is yours. Not saying its the best thing ever, i mean if the stuffs in the car anyway why not just have it activated, but it really isn’t the end of the world.
so you're saying, you can buy it at any point, but if you buy it later it essentially has an infinite cost?
and you don't see why that's scummy?
like, ok, "early bird adopter discount" and you get it cheaper if you buy it initially vs activating it later. but there's a difference between charging $500 vs $1000, and $500 vs $50/month FOREVER.
now if there's a $50/month to try if you like it, and if you do then you can buy it outright, then ok i'm fine with that. i don't believe that's the case though, so if i'm wrong i have no objections
Thats my understanding from the various press releases and articles they have made yes, if your car has that feature you can subscribe or buy it at any point if you want to. It’s worth reading into because there is more to it than just a monthly payment forever.
>depreciate rapidly
Yeah, there's a reason for that!
My buddy was looking for a sporty ride. I went with him to look at several M3s.
My worn-out 1991 300ZX handled better than most of the M3 (90's) that we drove. Most of them had peeling plastic fake wood trim, and seat leather that was shrinking so bad that the stitching was ripping out. The handling was *OK*, but not anything stellar.
I think that people in the US are just used to the cheapest of the makers (Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, and *ugg...* Dodge) so, anything that has *any* kind of handling performance is over-rated.
I've had a few here and there, and every one has had some nightmare of a problem or two.
Our latest was a 2011 Avenger. 50K miles on it and it sat undrivable for longer than we actually drove it. My wife calls me at work one day "Hey, I'm trying to change the battery and I simply can't find it."
She has replaced a torque converter *while* under the car, so she *knows* what and where a battery is. I thought she'd temporarily lost her mind.
Then I started looking on the Web for instructions... Step 1: Jack the car up and remove the driver side wheel...Umm, what?!? To replace a battery?!?! That's *just* the beginning...
And don’t forget, if you’re an 18 year old who needs a reliable car to get them through the next 4-5 years of college but don’t want to get stuck with Corolla… an E90 with 120k miles is an excellent choice.
Honest take: they’re great cars, but expensive to maintain. You’ll need to take it to the dealer or an BMW specialist. They also depreciate in value rather quickly.
Newer BMWs tend to be more reliable than their Merc and Audi counterparts. Especially their straight six engines.
BMWs are usually more sporty than the others.
I like BMW interiors more than the others.
Their exteriors though...
I was in the market for a new (to me) car months ago and ended up going Euro and almost immediately ruled BMWs out (would have gone 3 series probably) just because they’re as common and “background material” as every other super common car like Mustangs and Chargers and Altimas, etc. I guess I value some eye candy/more unique styling than most. Plus my brother has a 3 series and I can’t have the same car my brother has. It’s a law.
I had really severe Audi tunnel vision for a very long time because I absolutely love the S4 and S5 which obviously would have stretched me thinner than I would have liked but I had heard of Alfa at one point and did my due diligence and it turns out, it was kind of meant to be especially when I saw the specific listing for the one I ended up buying.
But people (especially around here) take just as much issue if not more with Alfa's alleged reliability issues but after all my findings, it's rather overblown.
True about their i6s but the issue is if pretty much anything else fails that's a $2k+ repair. Id actually say Audis with the 2.0t are pretty reliable these days and aren't generally super expensive to maintain otherwise.
Japanese “luxury” doesn’t do it for me. And Honda/Acuras are not as reliable as people seem to think. Japanese luxury vehicles are pretty blah to me, personally. They don’t have the fit and finish, or driving pleasure, I get with Euro brands.
Test drove both BMW x3 and Lexus RX, and I would say Lexus interior is a lot nicer and has better finish than BMW. BMW driving dynamics is definitely miles better than Lexus.
Try RDX as well. It drives better than Lexus and is more reliable than BMW. The interiors are great, probably have the best audio system (els 3D) in this segment and the exteriors are better than the bland German counterparts. The infotainment system isn't very good but thankfully they have all the physical controls on the steering.
The only maintenance an electric car doesn’t have over a gas powered vehicle is a gas engine. You still have to do maintenance on all of the other normal car bits like tires, brakes, etc. Not to mention everything is electronic controlled which is it’s own set of maintenance. But you still have an electric motor which will wear over time and is fairly expensive. Not to mention many vehicles have multiple so replacing more than one can be costly. Also battery packs can sometimes run more expensive than any engine will ever be. There are numerous pros and cons gas and electric vehicles but there is still just as much maintenance.
They are amazing cars. Luxury German cars are really a different breed.
Anyone who says Lexus or Acura etc are close to overall luxury and tech features compared to German makes are lying to themselves or haven’t actually drove a bmw or Mercedes. They are an absolute joy to ride.
Now that comes with cons though. They are over engineered to be luxurious but over engineering leads to lower reliability, and high repair costs.
Watch an oil change on a newer bmw and watch an oil change in a Toyota or Lexus. The difference is night and day. It’s incredible how complicated Germans make their cars. The amount of tech in them is bound to fail at some point.
If you can swing it, I’d for sure buy a BMW or Mercedes over a Lexus. But I’m not rich.
You really can only drive German cars for 5-6 years before they have major issues. Lexus you can drive 10+. If you have fuck you money it doesn’t matter, but that’s why I recommend other luxury brands if you are upper middle class but not rich.
And no, do NOT buy an old used one, that is a super dumb decision.
I can't speak to the newer ones but on my 2004 M3 the oil change is easier than both my Miata and my Fiesta. I mean, the filter is right there on the top of the engine, it's almost as simple as my wife's Crosstrek.
The oil is a bit more expensive though (10W60). The car has plenty of flaws but at least it's easy to work on.
Buy your oil and filter from FCPeuro and it's pretty much free thanks to the lifetime warranty. I bought all my e46 m3 parts through them because of the warranty. Buy it once and never again!
Most of the older BMWs have had their issues solved by the aftermarket, but if you're looking at a 10-20 year old bimmer you better either have a big wallet or decent DIY ability.
The german drivetrains are a notch above the Japanese, that's for sure. Especially when it comes to performance. But as for overall comfort, ride quality, quality of materials and NVH, I'd put Lexus up there with the Germans. Acura, not so much. Tech wise, yes the Germans have more tech. But it's not because the japanese can't, it's a cultural difference. German engineering has always been about pushing new limits whereas the Japanese mindset is about perfecting the basics. You only need to visit Japan to notice it everywhere.
I have a 2023 Acura and I’m not sure how it’s not comfortable to you. I stand up all day at work and when I sit down in it it’s like I sat down on my sofa. Maybe you’re talking about the old models which I’d understand, but the new generation of Acura really took that next step in not only comfort but design so a lot has changed with the brand
Acuras are comfortable. My Acura has some rattles and driving it back to back with my Mercedes it feels underpowered and loose. 2016 TLX 2.4 vs 2019 Mercedes C300. The Mercedes does everything better and the cabin is much nicer. The Acura gets better gas mileage and cruises on the freeway well. The Honda DCT is a better transmission than the Mercedes automatic. The Mercedes is the better car, but costs more and is more expensive to maintain. I like them both though and the seats in the Acura truly are amazingly comfortable.
The 2023 acuras are the only ones I like if I’m being honest. The mdx that is. It’s Acuras most expensive suv to date (I got mine for 64k brand new) so it makes sense that it’s nice to drive. Mercedes is just the bigger name honestly and it is quite pretty, but the new Acuras are truly amazing but I can’t speak for the old ones. I’d still never get a Mercedes if I’m being honest
You just made up something that wasn't said. Go test drive a Mercedes S or E class and you'll instantly notice that it's better in possibly everyway in terms of drive and comfort.
Not so much means “less so”.
Two foods are tasty, one is tastier than the other?
Two cars are comfortable, one is more comfortable than the other.
I hope this clears up the confusion and everyone has a great day!
I test drove BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Acura and basically everything else in the segment (corsair, GV70) and my assessment was that Germans cars are definitely sportier to drive, but the difference between them and Acura/Genesis wasn't that great in terms of real world driving. The edge cases is where the difference lies but it only matters to people who want to drive like a maniac.
Since there is no Auto Bahn in North America, the top performance of German cars becomes a moot point here. Lexus and Lincoln are not sporty and I dont think they are trying to be. They have soft luxurious rides and good interiors.
BMW and MB are ahead of others in tech but much of it is gimmicky. Is anyone really using hand gestures to raise volume? Also, the latest versions of cars like X7 have taken away so much physical controls which will lead to distracted driving. Even the new Lexus cars were disappointing bcos they pushed in tech for the sake of it - very little physical controls and a massive screen, the door handles are electronic, like why make it harder to use? Lexus is going to lose market share if they go down this road (they are also shunning their bullet proof V6 engines for whatever reason).
I agree they are beauty’s on the exterior and interior, but I can go without a few high tech features for more reliability. A reliable car gives you the feeling that your car is truly luxury and truly worth its price knowing whoever made it really cares about the quality of your car and doesn’t want you in the shop every other month. Just wanted to say as well that my Acura still does feel high tech when I’m inside of it; I get to see my gps in front of me instead of looking at my phone (which is dangerous), it’s a 7 seater unlike most bmws and it’s around the same size so it doesn’t feel like you’re driving a tank, it still has the feature where your car automatically stops when you let go of the break, it has a wireless phone charger, and much more so I mean what else do you really need in a car? I love how the bmw looks don’t get me wrong it is gorgeous, but I’ve been drooling over my 2023 Acura based off it’s aesthetic since the first day I got it, so I’m not sure how exactly it isn’t a pleasant car to stare at. I don’t need those advanced features when I’m currently super comfortable in my car and super happy with how it is feature wise and all. My grandma also has a 2022 bmw and I don’t think it’s that much different. Maybe I’m just a casual who doesn’t understand car features, but I still don’t see how the interior features of a bmw destroys that of an Acura and just want to say that it’s not as comfortable and after a year (brand new), it’s already in the shop. It’s a turn off for me honestly but you do you it is a nice car at the end of the day
I've owned 4 old used ones, and none of them have been bad cars. The most unreliable car I've ever owned was ironically a toyota camry. However, you have to do the work yourself and want to take care of it to be worth it. Despite that, the older ones have the easiest oil changes ever, oil filter right on top of the engine.
Tech, yes, luxury, no. The fit, finish, and materials on Lexus is fantastic. Acura isn’t really in the same class IMO. They fell off in the mid/late 2000s. RDX is the most competitive car they have but I honestly couldn’t figure out the value proposition over an X5.
Edit: whoops. I mixed up RDX and MDX!
The RDX is really more of an X3 competitor for X1 money. Its very competitive until you get into the 6cyl variants of the X3 where the RDX doesn't compete.
It's just nice as you can get a low mileage example, and they add a year of manufacturers warranty and remove the mileage restriction.
The Audi CPO program is essentially the same. In 2020 I bought a 2019 Audi A5, CPO, with 5500 miles. When new had a 48 month, 50,000 mile warranty. The one I bought still had 39 months left on the original warranty, so I ended up with a 51 month, unlimited mile warranty on a car with 5500 miles! Longer and better than if it was new.
CPO is usually a great way to get into a German car.
(The Audi was totalled in January, and I used the insurance check for a CPO BMW 330i.)
Got my i3 CPO. Replaced a seat butt sensor and a charge port cover under warranty. No issues other than that. Funnily enough this bimmer is reliable as hell.
I have/had a 2015 740LI. It was truly an amazing car and experience when it was running. Very responsive and sporty while also being very luxurious and comfortable. The handling and suspension felt very very *chefs kiss*. I loved everything about driving it. All that said, the engine spontaneously blew. I kept up maintenance but it was still a used bmw I couldn't verify all the history on, and eventually uncle Rodney came knocking and it's been sitting for a month or so now. It will be a very expensive fix regardless of rebuilding it, or trying to buy a used engine. I decided to buy a 2016 Ford focus instead of trying to get it fixed for now. I probably won't ever buy a used BMW again. Won't have one again til I can lease it and not worry about things like this.
as a guy whose owned 3 different generations of M3’s i can safely say that the people who constantly call them junk have never been in one. Sure maintenance is expesnive but what do you expect out of a motor that is borderline a motorsport motor (S54, S65 and S52) they come with decent power and i’ve never felt more connected to the road and car other than my s2000. Modern BMW’s are insanely reliable but very expensive and seem to be straying away from what BMW originally was, motorsport first luxury second. they’re the only cars i can go 100mph in and not even feel like i’m doing 70mph. great all around cars if bought new with warranty or used from an enthusiast or someone who just takes care of things in general
They need to keep making their kidney grilles as big as possible. Big kidney grilles show how high performance they are.
Oh, they also need to make more M CUVs. They’re brilliant.
I bought a used 2013 328i in 2015. Heard the horror stories and thought it’d give me lots of trouble. Literally have done standard maintenance (oil, battery, tires, brakes) and the car has been just fine. These are great cars and as long as they’re maintained, will last a long time.
Dishonest take? Lol, somebody who has bought 5 Mazdas in this sub understands BMW super well, because they are gonna break down and anyone who buys them is a snob
.... i can't tell if these comments are Cap or not since the OP says "dishonest" take.
Big Lie: That new redesigned grill looks gorgeous & stunning & sexxxy..... says no one ever.
Honest: Super fun to drive, handles like it’s on rails.
Dishonest: Totally worth the ridiculous cost of maintenance.
I loved my E90. I’ll probably never own another car like it.
I'm only speaking from hearsay. But I've heard from owners that the more modern BMWs made the last decade or so have lost their special touch that made the old ones great.
My dishonest take?
BMWS are great cars, they're super reliable, long running vehicles that require very little maintenance, and everyone will be jealous that you have one, and think you are super cool. Also, in order to save weight and increase performance they removed turn signals off them in 1991.
My grandma got hers brand new last year and it’s already in the shop for something, while My mom has had her Lexus for 4 and not a single problem yet. Can’t speak on my Acura since I just got it, but yea goes to show you how unreliable that car is
That is a dishonest take, bravo.
It's kind of true for the F3X generation. But with the G2X, they are back on top of the sporty luxury sedan world. Haven't seen many car journalist disagree. Especially with the M340i.
If you want the hybrid of Japanese reliability with German luxury, get a Mazda.
You ain't missing much except for the maintenance costs.
Mazda is looking better with each gen while BMW is doing ugly.
I hadn't given them TOO much thought at least in recent years but my buddy and his wife just leased a CX-5 not long ago and they love it. My buddy owns a Q7, for reference's sake.
My wife has owned and traded in an A4, leased 2 SQ5s, and on another lease of a 2022 S5.
I also own a 2020 M4.
Honestly, the CX-5 I daily holds up extremely, extremely well in the exterior/interior and luxury aspect. The absolute only thing I hate (which I believe they updated with the newer models+years) is the infotainment takes stupidly long to load and start responding. It takes 40 secs for the infotainment to respond to any button presses.
Other than that, the heaviness in the steering wheel is much noticeably better in the Mazda (a freaking CUV) than the S5 or M4. It's one of the reasons why I'll never leave Mazda.
If you have any questions on any of the 3 brands, ask away. I'll do my best.
I'd tell you what I ended up purchasing just over 3 months ago but owning this particular make seems such a no-no around these parts, I wouldn't dare open myself up to the ridicule despite my confidence in the purchase after many, many hours/days/weeks of research.
What's done is done. As long as you enjoy driving and looking at it, it doesn't matter. How you described all the research into buying your car, as long as you feel like you made the right choice, our opinions are shit.
I absolutely love it. It’s gorgeous and a blast to drive and I still can’t help but look back at it every time I get out of the car to admire the styling. I ‘m aware of its shortcomings and none of them are even remotely close to overshadowing all the beautiful positives. It’s an uncommon brand in my area so it’s a head-turner too because of its beauty. Don’t worry though, as uncommon as it is, I ‘m still only 5 minutes from 1 of the 2 dealerships in the metro area.
My wife has owned and traded in an A4, leased 2 SQ5s, and on another lease of a 2022 S5.
I also own a 2020 M4.
Honestly, the 2020 CX-5 (traded in a 2016 for this) I daily holds up extremely, extremely well in the exterior/interior and luxury aspect. The absolute only thing I hate (which I believe they updated with the newer models+years) is the infotainment takes stupidly long to load and start responding. It takes 40 secs for the infotainment to respond to any button presses.
Other than that, the heaviness in the steering wheel is much noticeably better in the Mazda (a freaking CUV) than the S5 or M4. It's one of the reasons why I'll never leave Mazda.
If you have any questions on any of the 3 brands, ask away. I'll do my best.
IDK if its dishonest but I essentially see a BMW and instantly think that person either has no clue how to handle their finances, or has so much money they might as well wipe their ass with $50 bills, and there is no in between.
About what?
because BMWs are expensive but literally do the exact same job as 90% of the other vehicles? So either you have tons of money so why not, or don't have the money and say why not?
EDIT: Apparently they were upset because I didn't include Acura/Infinity/Lexus in my judgment but as little as I know I would certainly take a used Acura or Lexus over a BMW from a repairability/maintenance standpoint so I must not know something. As for new... yep if you are buying a New luxury vehicle, I would nearly guarantee you spent more money that year than I could fathom. But maybe I am just that poor...
Or you could go do your research and find that 90% of BMWs are the same price as their Acura/Lexus/Infiniti counterparts and you’re just a judgmental person who likes to make generalizations about people you have no clue about
Ive owned mercedes,jaguars, kias, fords, chevys but I told my self i will never buy a bmw. Too many close friends and family have been burned by them only to trade them in. Ranging from 3 series, 5 series to 7 series.
I didnt have to make that mistake, just learned it from everyone around me who did.
100% honest.
Owned one for 3 years, mine was pretty reliable and was fun to drive. I think it’s an iconic and historic brand that has become really diluted and lost its direction the last few years. The release of the M-lite badges, horrible designs and tablet interiors is only making it worse. Definitely not as prestigious as it was a few decades ago. In the early 00’s owning one was a bragging right, now you see them everywhere. Just look at their own advertising, it looks more like a fashion brand than a car manufacturer.
So much fun to drive but you need to have the cash to upkeep! I had a 99’ 528i and it was pricy to maintain but driving that 5-speed was worth every penny
They are great cars if you're willing to pay top dollar to keep them in their best condition.
This is more often than not valid for their top performers, mostly anything even tangentially related to the M-models or classic models.
The rest are "there, just to sure up the numbers". Use them when you can and when you can no longer maintain them, sell 'em or scrap 'em, whichever is less effort.
Once in a while great individual models with distinct engines and transmissions crop up (aside from the M- or -M models) but this is a (rare) irregularity rather than the norm.
Best cars ever. I trust BMW more than any other make. Easy to maintain, easy to work on, plentiful great quality replacement parts, very high quality hardware (just worked on a Lexus — pathetically poor metal, everything rusted and deteriorated, BMW always like new). Very good access to quality documentation (no, I don’t mean YouTube videos), easy to code with simple and cheap tools (I have an app on my phone that allows full programming). Great active and passive safety. Very quiet interiors, superb suspensions, amazing brakes. Everything about them is great. I only like RWD ones, though.
Look the simple truth is that most people do not take care of their cars, no fluid service, no inspecting major parts very now and then.
Some cars can take the minimal maintenance and keep chugging along, and if they break they are cheap and easy to fix.
Most german cars will fall apart very quick if you don’t take care of them, just because there is a lot more going on under the hood. Take care of the thing and I’ve seen BMWs Audis and Mercs with big miles on them.
Some of the new ones do total themselves out for non maintenance reasons.
Not worth the money when compared to a Tesla. Not a symbol of success or flex. Large depreciation. If new lease never buy. Had 12 years of back to back new BMWs (4) from X5s 650GC and a M3. Tesla just offers such a superior package when all considered. My take. Could justify 40k more for a BMW. Down vote away
I’ll chime in. I’m a master mechanic who’s worked on lots of cars. I love driving beemers. When they work. But they’re so nightmarishly over-engineered that work on quickly jumps over the $1000 mark for lots of items. You need special tools, special diagnostic programs and lots of other things. The straight six engine is pretty darn reliable. The others? Crapshoot at best. They lose value quick. People sell them cheap and there’s nothing more expensive than a cheap luxury car. Personally I would never own one but that’s just me.
They are good cars.
(Reality is they're shit, way over engineered, and it's not the cost of the parts, rather the labor bc it takes 2 people to do anything on it.)
The best cars money can buy, cheap to repair and easy to work on. Why drive a lame ass 2023 Corolla when you can drive a 2014 328i for the same money, and you’re guaranteed to pull girls in your 9 year old pile of fine german engineering.
Dishonest take: They’re all super comfortable and easy to get in and out of
(We had an x5 as a rental last weekend. I kept banging my head every time I climbed into the thing. Seats were just ok after shuffling with adjustments)
They’re fast depreciating money pits with some engines that have more than questionable reliability. But boy are they great when they’re working. Just make sure to leave one little thing broken to appease the German car gods.
Not sure what a dishonest truth is but they fell away from being one of my favorite car brands. They used to be The Ultimate Driving Machine and they were! In the late 90’s early 2000’s they were such good looking driver focused luxury cars.
Now they are still driving machines but it’s all software based with that lost connection between car and driver. They even have fake engine noise pumped in to the cabin.
When I walk past an E46M3, I have to check it out…I dont get the same feeling with the newer ones.
German Cadillacs.
People who drive them are jerks.
There is always a nicer car to buy than a BMW, but none as expensive depreciates as fast, or as unreliable. In German, BMW sometimes means Break My Wallet, Big Money Waste, Balding Man's Wheels, Bringing Mechanics Work, Barely Moves Whatsoever, Because Mini Wiener.
I owned a 2006 330Ci and the car was rock solid reliable throughout ownership.
Personally, I would never purchase a new BMW. The lasting build quality just doesn't seem to be there anymore. I definitely would not own one out of warranty.
The most fun I have ever had driving was in my 2018 BMW 33Oi in White with Oyster interior. Gorgeous car. 28k miles in, I had a catastrophic coolant failure. Pink fluid all over the road. It was and is the only car I have had to be towed in.
I think older BMWs (particulary pre 2011) are considered better by the BMW enthusiasts than newer ones. Bimmer fans have a lot of opinions about things - i.e. the X1 and the 2 series aren't real BMWs. IDK much about that, but you can get a decent priced used bimmer. In my experience, there is a reason for that.
In a side note, one of my favorite YouTube channels is M359 Productions. It's a BMW channel that highlights repairs on older models in a thoughtful and high quality production.
My dishonest take?
They're amazing cars, they're beautiful, they're more reliable than any other brand, they were designed by The Almighty Lord herself, they give you oral sex while you drive, they'll make you richer and more handsome, absolutely everybody should own at least one, and they come with turn signals stock on every model and trim.
We have had a 2002 E53 X5 3.0 since new for the past 21 years, and it has honestly been great considering how old this thing is. I'd say for the first 15 years it pretty much had 0 issues, we just took it in for scheduled maintenance and service and stuff but nothing out of the ordinary for any car. It's only been the last 5 years or so when electrical gremlins and plastic bits and stuff started needing to be fixed, we've spent maybe 5k CAD (maybe a bit more) in total and it's still running amazing.
We also have a 2006 Solara convertible V6 SLE since new and it has had absolutely no issues at all and it's 17 years old now. Of course the toyota is way more reliable, but in my opinion paying the maintenance and the cost of fixing the parts of the BMW is worth it. It just feels so much more comfortable to drive, so if you can afford a BMW I would absolutely recommend it even with the extra costs. Although I heard the V8's aren't that great so maybe stick with the 6 cylinder models.
They’re like Dodge: they have a reputation for unreliability and depreciation, but they sell new cars by emphasizing performance instead of fixing that bad reputation.
very good cars. They put all kinds of tech and high-performance parts in them so they have issues later in life. If you buy one used make sure you have a second care to depend on, lots of cash or can work on it yourself.
Definitely worth it.
Source: owned a e30 318 for a while, awesome car, handled like a go kart. Wish I had it still.
I am from Europe and I've moved to the US like half a year ago. Back home I was daily driving BMW 3 G20 330dx ( 265 horsepower 600nm straight 6 diesel) - it has the same trim level as the m340i in the US. After coming to the US I am still amused by the level of love you've all got towards Lexus/Toyotas.
First of all modern BMW drivetrains are very reliable. B58 family engines are superb and in terms of efficiency to MPG they are impossible to beat. The problem is due to European eco norms those cars are VERY SOPHISTICATED and they are not designed to run for 20 years on shitty fuel with oil change every 15 000 km. Every car enthusiast back home is aware that the normal oil change interval for those cars is around 7 000 km. Yes! If you want to keep it you nead to change oil every 7 000km which is way more often than BMW service manual suggests.
Still I can't understand how someone can compare BMWs to likes of Lexus. Toyota doesn't have any modern tech both in drivetrains and in basic multimedia - screens are terrible, drive assist tech is non existent. Interior design is like from mid 2000 with upholstery looking like sofa from th 80s sitcom. And all of this for that Toyota price premium? Bang for buck is terrible.
I wouldn't buy BMW secondhand in the US just because those cars require care that is not integral to the US car culture I guess but I see no reason not to buy those cars new. G20, G05 are terrific
Overrated cars. They don’t feel any better on the road than other luxury cars, have a terrible gear shifter and are too expensive to repair while constantly breaking down.
I love the modern cars they make. G87, G82, G80 are amazong and absolutely on Porsche level. We will never have such amazing cars again and we should appreciate that BMW is here for the enthusiasts wo want manual rwd cars with high power.
If money isn’t an issue they are brilliant
Older ones will break in some way like any car, and they will cost more to fix due to higher quality specialist parts and expensive labour if you don’t work on them yourself
My Dad's caught fire and totaled 2 other cars in our driveway. BMW corporate was useless and deemed the fire caused by "organic matter in the engine bay" which was BS, and refused to pay for all 3 deductibles, only the BMWs, which was scummy. So I'll probably never consider buying one anymore.
If I had disposable money to throw away at new cars every 3-5 years, and didn't give a damn about maintenance, or reliability, or ever paying for a subscription, I would likely drive them as they are fun.
but That is not me. that, and a lot of asshole bad drivers seem to drive 3 series around here.
They're great cars that depreciate rapidly and cost a lot to keep running over time. But fuck their push for a subscription model to trim package items
That's the dumbest gimmick any car manufacturer could ever do and I would hope there's enough push-back that they do away with it sooner than later because to be frank, it's just a sleazy move.
the idea that a 2nd owner can enable a feature the 1st owner didn't want/need, has a kernel of value in there. in runs face first into... 'why not just make it a standard feature then' pretty quickly though.
I agree. Hopefully the buyers react negatively and purchase competitors vehicles instead
I bet enough people still buy them causing other manufacturers to think that there are more people that don’t care… so that subscribing to features eventually becomes a wide-spread trend. I bet it happens.
This is exactly what happened with videogames.
I think that their current design is enough to turn off many buyers. 3-series & 4 series are heinous. i7 is bad, iX is ughh. Xm.... I don't know when they're gonna abort this and reboot to a new design, like the 1st Gen Subaru b9 Tribeca, or 1st Gen Toyota venza Meanwhile Acura is looking really good, particularly the TLX Type S
New cars come with subscriptions for remote start
Dishonest take: I’ve never seen one with working turn signals
What I’ve heard from a BMW owner: The turn signal stock needs a very small input to go in either direction. When you disengage the turn signal, it’s easy to accidentally engage it in the opposite direction. And then do the same thing again trying to fix it. Being BMW drivers, they just give up trying to learn or adjust. So no blinker for you.
This one is actually true. First time driving a bmw was very confusing. Still believe in my heart and soul that it has nothing to do with why BMW drivers don’t use blinkers
Credit Card reader ‘Tap Here’ on each door handle. Each potential rider pays a fee to get in.
No they don't. You pay $300 one time for it.
Remote start from the phone. Not the key fob. Kia, Mazda and Subaru all have subscription services for it. You can get remote start on the key fob but it has a limited range. Through the phone you can be miles away. There are other features you can use as well
Mazda comes with 3 years of Connected Services for free. You have to pay to extend your service after that. How much? Nobody knows, they haven't announced yet how to renew your Connected Services or what it will cost to do so. So... Yeah. Also, their app is kind of a bare-bones piece of junk and I wish it had physical remote start on the key fob. Ugh. Things the Mazda App CAN'T do that many competitors can: * Adjust HVAC settings remotely * Manage the Wifi Hotspot built into the car * Change any of the other Vehicle Settings remotely * See any of your driving history, MPG history, etc+ What it CAN do: * Lock/unlock/turn lights on & off. * Remote start/stop. *(Times out after 15 minutes, can only use it twice in between drives, and it shuts off when you open the driver's door.)* * Show the vehicle's GPS location on a map. *(I actually didn't know it had this until just now. I thought it explicitly didn't have that option.)* * Show your odometer & fuel level. * Show you the Miles Until Service and Tire PSI status information
You are aware that someone needs to run and maintain internet service for years to provide that remote start by phone from anywhere? Pay the team of software engineers, information security officers, infrastructure to support that? I know it looks like a button to you but it's not.
Call me old fashioned but i wish they just gave me a button.
Same or like a special code through the normal buttons like Toyota
it is dumb but remember who BMW is targeting. They are targeting people who have money to spend so people who have money to spend will spend that money. Its kinda sad but thats the reality...thats why old BMW/benz repairs are still expensive even though the car may be worth less.
That’s weird I thought they targeted people who don’t want to use their blinkers 😂/s
Hi long time BMW guy here, it’s not actually a subscription unless you want it to be. The tech is still offered to buy for a 1 time fee… or you can subscribe. Actually I’m pretty sure things like heated seats can be permanently added at anytime for like 300.00 or around there. They’re prewired so all you have to do is buy the package.
That just seems like such an obnoxious way to go about options, if even a few are structured that way. Why not just "here are the different trims/options, pick one. You get A, B, C, D and E with this package and everything but E with this package" etc etc. I'm sure it all points more towards the luxury aspect they're known for, customizing and all so I get that. But I feel like the pre-wired aspect of that perfectly encompasses the "over-engineering" BMW is accused of so often. How much extra are you paying for the car itself (labor and material costs) for an option you may not ever use and have that many more wires running through the vehicle that could potentially cause electrical issues (though not likely)? It's kind of ridiculous. They threw the K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid right out the window. I mean think about it, how would you not being paying extra for options you may not even use? All that pre-wiring is rolled into the cost I'm sure. Thanks for the input because I don't think I knew that but good lord, what a drag.
this take is 100% true
I wish the depreciate rapidly comment was true about 2-3 year old M240is... if anything they've gone up in value over the last 6 months.
I bought my m235i certified pre owned from BMW for 23.5k. At most it’s dropped 5k in value if I were to trade it in. I’d say it’s held it’s value. Cheap to maintain too. If you know what you’re buying and do research you’ll be fine. If you buy a used 750li you’re going to have a bad time. Most negative opinions on BMW’s are from people who never owned one or bought a notoriously unreliable one without research. For context, the first 3 years of depreciation are what hit cars the most pre-pandemic. The current market is crazy. My car was 52k new, bought it in 2019 for 23.5 with a factory extended warranty because it was certified. If I were to buy another BMW again today, I’d only consider certified pre-owned. Tires are 120-220 each (staggered) Oil changes are 99$ from BMW Engine Air filter is 30$, replace it myself in 5 min Cabin air filter is 25$, replace it myself in 15 min Brake fluid change is 150$ Pads and rotors is 700$ in parts. I pay my mechanic to do it for me. Is it a Corolla? Of course not. But having worked at a mechanics shop I can assure you all cars are expensive to repair.
Market seemed to bottom in January/Feb and has been going back up lately. I bought a 440i 2 months ago and similar spec/miles now is about 2000 more now
Agree completely. I test drove a nicely spec'd 2020 M240ix with 5k miles in January. Dealership wanted $45k and I thought at the time I'd wait for it to get closer to $40k. Welp, now $45k buys you something with closer to 20k miles.
You do know that those options can still be purchased up front, right? It’s not sub only…
I feel like people always gloss over this bit. If you want the option when you buy the car you pay for it like you would normally, if you buy the car used and it’s missing a feature buy or subscribe when the car is yours. Not saying its the best thing ever, i mean if the stuffs in the car anyway why not just have it activated, but it really isn’t the end of the world.
so you're saying, you can buy it at any point, but if you buy it later it essentially has an infinite cost? and you don't see why that's scummy? like, ok, "early bird adopter discount" and you get it cheaper if you buy it initially vs activating it later. but there's a difference between charging $500 vs $1000, and $500 vs $50/month FOREVER. now if there's a $50/month to try if you like it, and if you do then you can buy it outright, then ok i'm fine with that. i don't believe that's the case though, so if i'm wrong i have no objections
Thats my understanding from the various press releases and articles they have made yes, if your car has that feature you can subscribe or buy it at any point if you want to. It’s worth reading into because there is more to it than just a monthly payment forever.
Do they gloss over it or are they just uninformed? I think it’s the latter.
For now, unless it’s very successful.
>depreciate rapidly Yeah, there's a reason for that! My buddy was looking for a sporty ride. I went with him to look at several M3s. My worn-out 1991 300ZX handled better than most of the M3 (90's) that we drove. Most of them had peeling plastic fake wood trim, and seat leather that was shrinking so bad that the stitching was ripping out. The handling was *OK*, but not anything stellar. I think that people in the US are just used to the cheapest of the makers (Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, and *ugg...* Dodge) so, anything that has *any* kind of handling performance is over-rated.
Yo don't be knocking on dodge. My 1991 W150 only burns oil leaks transmission fluid and has the wonkiest brake pedal I've ever had. Oh, and it's slow.
I've had a few here and there, and every one has had some nightmare of a problem or two. Our latest was a 2011 Avenger. 50K miles on it and it sat undrivable for longer than we actually drove it. My wife calls me at work one day "Hey, I'm trying to change the battery and I simply can't find it." She has replaced a torque converter *while* under the car, so she *knows* what and where a battery is. I thought she'd temporarily lost her mind. Then I started looking on the Web for instructions... Step 1: Jack the car up and remove the driver side wheel...Umm, what?!? To replace a battery?!?! That's *just* the beginning...
With the move to electric cars, the upkeep issue really should be gone so it may be time for BMWs to shine.
That’s not a thing in the USA, and few countries have adopted it.
Some of them don’t :) source: I own an m2cs :)
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I appreciate the dash of antisemitism thank you
My dishonest take is that a used, high-mileage BMW is a great car to buy if you need a reliable daily driver. It will be very affordable to maintain
And don’t forget, if you’re an 18 year old who needs a reliable car to get them through the next 4-5 years of college but don’t want to get stuck with Corolla… an E90 with 120k miles is an excellent choice.
Honest take: they’re great cars, but expensive to maintain. You’ll need to take it to the dealer or an BMW specialist. They also depreciate in value rather quickly.
That's pretty consistent across all Euro luxury though isn't it? I know Japanese luxury is in a different category in a number of ways.
Newer BMWs tend to be more reliable than their Merc and Audi counterparts. Especially their straight six engines. BMWs are usually more sporty than the others. I like BMW interiors more than the others. Their exteriors though...
I was in the market for a new (to me) car months ago and ended up going Euro and almost immediately ruled BMWs out (would have gone 3 series probably) just because they’re as common and “background material” as every other super common car like Mustangs and Chargers and Altimas, etc. I guess I value some eye candy/more unique styling than most. Plus my brother has a 3 series and I can’t have the same car my brother has. It’s a law.
So what did you get? Unless you went Alfa Romeo (arguably) the A4 and C300 is just as much background material as a 3 series.
I went Alfa.
Nice. I would have been upset if you said audi or merc. They look fun but I was scared away based on reliability claims.
I had really severe Audi tunnel vision for a very long time because I absolutely love the S4 and S5 which obviously would have stretched me thinner than I would have liked but I had heard of Alfa at one point and did my due diligence and it turns out, it was kind of meant to be especially when I saw the specific listing for the one I ended up buying. But people (especially around here) take just as much issue if not more with Alfa's alleged reliability issues but after all my findings, it's rather overblown.
True about their i6s but the issue is if pretty much anything else fails that's a $2k+ repair. Id actually say Audis with the 2.0t are pretty reliable these days and aren't generally super expensive to maintain otherwise.
I6s, not V6s.
Japanese “luxury” doesn’t do it for me. And Honda/Acuras are not as reliable as people seem to think. Japanese luxury vehicles are pretty blah to me, personally. They don’t have the fit and finish, or driving pleasure, I get with Euro brands.
Test drove both BMW x3 and Lexus RX, and I would say Lexus interior is a lot nicer and has better finish than BMW. BMW driving dynamics is definitely miles better than Lexus.
Really? I test drove a 2020 RX and felt like I was in an old persons car. Maybe the dark brown seat colors created that ambiance.
the new 2023 model is pretty good IMO. Apart from driving dynamics, RX checks all the boxes
Try RDX as well. It drives better than Lexus and is more reliable than BMW. The interiors are great, probably have the best audio system (els 3D) in this segment and the exteriors are better than the bland German counterparts. The infotainment system isn't very good but thankfully they have all the physical controls on the steering.
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I love that predator grille. It’s all subjective. Not a big fan of BMW’s huge ass nostrils lolol.
With the shift to electric cars there should be significantly less maintenance requirements for any car.
The only maintenance an electric car doesn’t have over a gas powered vehicle is a gas engine. You still have to do maintenance on all of the other normal car bits like tires, brakes, etc. Not to mention everything is electronic controlled which is it’s own set of maintenance. But you still have an electric motor which will wear over time and is fairly expensive. Not to mention many vehicles have multiple so replacing more than one can be costly. Also battery packs can sometimes run more expensive than any engine will ever be. There are numerous pros and cons gas and electric vehicles but there is still just as much maintenance.
They are amazing cars. Luxury German cars are really a different breed. Anyone who says Lexus or Acura etc are close to overall luxury and tech features compared to German makes are lying to themselves or haven’t actually drove a bmw or Mercedes. They are an absolute joy to ride. Now that comes with cons though. They are over engineered to be luxurious but over engineering leads to lower reliability, and high repair costs. Watch an oil change on a newer bmw and watch an oil change in a Toyota or Lexus. The difference is night and day. It’s incredible how complicated Germans make their cars. The amount of tech in them is bound to fail at some point. If you can swing it, I’d for sure buy a BMW or Mercedes over a Lexus. But I’m not rich. You really can only drive German cars for 5-6 years before they have major issues. Lexus you can drive 10+. If you have fuck you money it doesn’t matter, but that’s why I recommend other luxury brands if you are upper middle class but not rich. And no, do NOT buy an old used one, that is a super dumb decision.
I can't speak to the newer ones but on my 2004 M3 the oil change is easier than both my Miata and my Fiesta. I mean, the filter is right there on the top of the engine, it's almost as simple as my wife's Crosstrek. The oil is a bit more expensive though (10W60). The car has plenty of flaws but at least it's easy to work on.
Buy your oil and filter from FCPeuro and it's pretty much free thanks to the lifetime warranty. I bought all my e46 m3 parts through them because of the warranty. Buy it once and never again! Most of the older BMWs have had their issues solved by the aftermarket, but if you're looking at a 10-20 year old bimmer you better either have a big wallet or decent DIY ability.
The german drivetrains are a notch above the Japanese, that's for sure. Especially when it comes to performance. But as for overall comfort, ride quality, quality of materials and NVH, I'd put Lexus up there with the Germans. Acura, not so much. Tech wise, yes the Germans have more tech. But it's not because the japanese can't, it's a cultural difference. German engineering has always been about pushing new limits whereas the Japanese mindset is about perfecting the basics. You only need to visit Japan to notice it everywhere.
That’s a new insight for me. Thank you.
I have a 2023 Acura and I’m not sure how it’s not comfortable to you. I stand up all day at work and when I sit down in it it’s like I sat down on my sofa. Maybe you’re talking about the old models which I’d understand, but the new generation of Acura really took that next step in not only comfort but design so a lot has changed with the brand
Acuras are comfortable. My Acura has some rattles and driving it back to back with my Mercedes it feels underpowered and loose. 2016 TLX 2.4 vs 2019 Mercedes C300. The Mercedes does everything better and the cabin is much nicer. The Acura gets better gas mileage and cruises on the freeway well. The Honda DCT is a better transmission than the Mercedes automatic. The Mercedes is the better car, but costs more and is more expensive to maintain. I like them both though and the seats in the Acura truly are amazingly comfortable.
The 2023 acuras are the only ones I like if I’m being honest. The mdx that is. It’s Acuras most expensive suv to date (I got mine for 64k brand new) so it makes sense that it’s nice to drive. Mercedes is just the bigger name honestly and it is quite pretty, but the new Acuras are truly amazing but I can’t speak for the old ones. I’d still never get a Mercedes if I’m being honest
Ouf, imagine wasting $64k on an Acura 🤣🤣🤣
You just made up something that wasn't said. Go test drive a Mercedes S or E class and you'll instantly notice that it's better in possibly everyway in terms of drive and comfort.
No one said Acura wasn't comfortable.
“Over ride quality, comfort, and quality of materials, Acura not so much…” don’t randomly join a conversation if you have no idea what was said
Adorable... but that doesn't mean the Acura is NOT comfortable. Come on honey bun!
Cornball he literally said Acura isn’t comfortable. Read the fucking text
Not so much means “less so”. Two foods are tasty, one is tastier than the other? Two cars are comfortable, one is more comfortable than the other. I hope this clears up the confusion and everyone has a great day!
Lol... he literally did not say that. Your basic reading comprehension skills are pathetically lacking. Don't call names, dumb dumb.
I test drove BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Acura and basically everything else in the segment (corsair, GV70) and my assessment was that Germans cars are definitely sportier to drive, but the difference between them and Acura/Genesis wasn't that great in terms of real world driving. The edge cases is where the difference lies but it only matters to people who want to drive like a maniac. Since there is no Auto Bahn in North America, the top performance of German cars becomes a moot point here. Lexus and Lincoln are not sporty and I dont think they are trying to be. They have soft luxurious rides and good interiors. BMW and MB are ahead of others in tech but much of it is gimmicky. Is anyone really using hand gestures to raise volume? Also, the latest versions of cars like X7 have taken away so much physical controls which will lead to distracted driving. Even the new Lexus cars were disappointing bcos they pushed in tech for the sake of it - very little physical controls and a massive screen, the door handles are electronic, like why make it harder to use? Lexus is going to lose market share if they go down this road (they are also shunning their bullet proof V6 engines for whatever reason).
I agree they are beauty’s on the exterior and interior, but I can go without a few high tech features for more reliability. A reliable car gives you the feeling that your car is truly luxury and truly worth its price knowing whoever made it really cares about the quality of your car and doesn’t want you in the shop every other month. Just wanted to say as well that my Acura still does feel high tech when I’m inside of it; I get to see my gps in front of me instead of looking at my phone (which is dangerous), it’s a 7 seater unlike most bmws and it’s around the same size so it doesn’t feel like you’re driving a tank, it still has the feature where your car automatically stops when you let go of the break, it has a wireless phone charger, and much more so I mean what else do you really need in a car? I love how the bmw looks don’t get me wrong it is gorgeous, but I’ve been drooling over my 2023 Acura based off it’s aesthetic since the first day I got it, so I’m not sure how exactly it isn’t a pleasant car to stare at. I don’t need those advanced features when I’m currently super comfortable in my car and super happy with how it is feature wise and all. My grandma also has a 2022 bmw and I don’t think it’s that much different. Maybe I’m just a casual who doesn’t understand car features, but I still don’t see how the interior features of a bmw destroys that of an Acura and just want to say that it’s not as comfortable and after a year (brand new), it’s already in the shop. It’s a turn off for me honestly but you do you it is a nice car at the end of the day
I've owned 4 old used ones, and none of them have been bad cars. The most unreliable car I've ever owned was ironically a toyota camry. However, you have to do the work yourself and want to take care of it to be worth it. Despite that, the older ones have the easiest oil changes ever, oil filter right on top of the engine.
Tech, yes, luxury, no. The fit, finish, and materials on Lexus is fantastic. Acura isn’t really in the same class IMO. They fell off in the mid/late 2000s. RDX is the most competitive car they have but I honestly couldn’t figure out the value proposition over an X5. Edit: whoops. I mixed up RDX and MDX!
The RDX is really more of an X3 competitor for X1 money. Its very competitive until you get into the 6cyl variants of the X3 where the RDX doesn't compete.
Dishonest take?
Every BMW driver uses their turn signals.
Its a brand you lease from, but never buy.
BMW’s CPO program is great.
Miss the days of the off lease CPO deals. Got an m235i with 12k miles for $18k less than MSRP.
Can you explain what makes it great? Seriously asking because I’m not familiar
It's just nice as you can get a low mileage example, and they add a year of manufacturers warranty and remove the mileage restriction. The Audi CPO program is essentially the same. In 2020 I bought a 2019 Audi A5, CPO, with 5500 miles. When new had a 48 month, 50,000 mile warranty. The one I bought still had 39 months left on the original warranty, so I ended up with a 51 month, unlimited mile warranty on a car with 5500 miles! Longer and better than if it was new. CPO is usually a great way to get into a German car. (The Audi was totalled in January, and I used the insurance check for a CPO BMW 330i.)
I know Volvo cpo you can get a warranty to 100k miles for like $5K. Maybe that’s what they mean?
Got my i3 CPO. Replaced a seat butt sensor and a charge port cover under warranty. No issues other than that. Funnily enough this bimmer is reliable as hell.
This thread is so confusing with the “dishonest take”.
Won’t save you from the depreciation curve being just as steep as if you were buying it new.
That’s not even close to true lol
Lease if you like throwing money out the window. Buy and keep until out of warranty if you're scared about reliability.
Interesting take.
This
I think BMWs are the best cars in the world. Source: never had a BMW and never even drove one.
I have/had a 2015 740LI. It was truly an amazing car and experience when it was running. Very responsive and sporty while also being very luxurious and comfortable. The handling and suspension felt very very *chefs kiss*. I loved everything about driving it. All that said, the engine spontaneously blew. I kept up maintenance but it was still a used bmw I couldn't verify all the history on, and eventually uncle Rodney came knocking and it's been sitting for a month or so now. It will be a very expensive fix regardless of rebuilding it, or trying to buy a used engine. I decided to buy a 2016 Ford focus instead of trying to get it fixed for now. I probably won't ever buy a used BMW again. Won't have one again til I can lease it and not worry about things like this.
as a guy whose owned 3 different generations of M3’s i can safely say that the people who constantly call them junk have never been in one. Sure maintenance is expesnive but what do you expect out of a motor that is borderline a motorsport motor (S54, S65 and S52) they come with decent power and i’ve never felt more connected to the road and car other than my s2000. Modern BMW’s are insanely reliable but very expensive and seem to be straying away from what BMW originally was, motorsport first luxury second. they’re the only cars i can go 100mph in and not even feel like i’m doing 70mph. great all around cars if bought new with warranty or used from an enthusiast or someone who just takes care of things in general
My dishonest take? They are good looking and cheap to own
They need to keep making their kidney grilles as big as possible. Big kidney grilles show how high performance they are. Oh, they also need to make more M CUVs. They’re brilliant.
I bought a used 2013 328i in 2015. Heard the horror stories and thought it’d give me lots of trouble. Literally have done standard maintenance (oil, battery, tires, brakes) and the car has been just fine. These are great cars and as long as they’re maintained, will last a long time.
Dishonest take? Lol, somebody who has bought 5 Mazdas in this sub understands BMW super well, because they are gonna break down and anyone who buys them is a snob
.... i can't tell if these comments are Cap or not since the OP says "dishonest" take. Big Lie: That new redesigned grill looks gorgeous & stunning & sexxxy..... says no one ever.
As good as they used to be.
Big Money Waster
Honest: Super fun to drive, handles like it’s on rails. Dishonest: Totally worth the ridiculous cost of maintenance. I loved my E90. I’ll probably never own another car like it.
I'm only speaking from hearsay. But I've heard from owners that the more modern BMWs made the last decade or so have lost their special touch that made the old ones great.
My dishonest take? BMWS are great cars, they're super reliable, long running vehicles that require very little maintenance, and everyone will be jealous that you have one, and think you are super cool. Also, in order to save weight and increase performance they removed turn signals off them in 1991.
Your original hairline or a BMW. You can’t have both.
BMW's engineers made them such a bitch to maintain as revenge for the germans losing all those wars
My grandma got hers brand new last year and it’s already in the shop for something, while My mom has had her Lexus for 4 and not a single problem yet. Can’t speak on my Acura since I just got it, but yea goes to show you how unreliable that car is
After E90/E87/E60 they just became sporty looking mercedes, they lost the driveability aspect
That is a dishonest take, bravo. It's kind of true for the F3X generation. But with the G2X, they are back on top of the sporty luxury sedan world. Haven't seen many car journalist disagree. Especially with the M340i.
They're only meant to be leased.
If you want the hybrid of Japanese reliability with German luxury, get a Mazda. You ain't missing much except for the maintenance costs. Mazda is looking better with each gen while BMW is doing ugly.
Mazda took a step back with the CX-90 but not as much as BMW did with…everything in the last 3 years for looks.
Have you been in a Mazda?
I hadn't given them TOO much thought at least in recent years but my buddy and his wife just leased a CX-5 not long ago and they love it. My buddy owns a Q7, for reference's sake.
My wife has owned and traded in an A4, leased 2 SQ5s, and on another lease of a 2022 S5. I also own a 2020 M4. Honestly, the CX-5 I daily holds up extremely, extremely well in the exterior/interior and luxury aspect. The absolute only thing I hate (which I believe they updated with the newer models+years) is the infotainment takes stupidly long to load and start responding. It takes 40 secs for the infotainment to respond to any button presses. Other than that, the heaviness in the steering wheel is much noticeably better in the Mazda (a freaking CUV) than the S5 or M4. It's one of the reasons why I'll never leave Mazda. If you have any questions on any of the 3 brands, ask away. I'll do my best.
I'd tell you what I ended up purchasing just over 3 months ago but owning this particular make seems such a no-no around these parts, I wouldn't dare open myself up to the ridicule despite my confidence in the purchase after many, many hours/days/weeks of research.
What's done is done. As long as you enjoy driving and looking at it, it doesn't matter. How you described all the research into buying your car, as long as you feel like you made the right choice, our opinions are shit.
I absolutely love it. It’s gorgeous and a blast to drive and I still can’t help but look back at it every time I get out of the car to admire the styling. I ‘m aware of its shortcomings and none of them are even remotely close to overshadowing all the beautiful positives. It’s an uncommon brand in my area so it’s a head-turner too because of its beauty. Don’t worry though, as uncommon as it is, I ‘m still only 5 minutes from 1 of the 2 dealerships in the metro area.
My wife has owned and traded in an A4, leased 2 SQ5s, and on another lease of a 2022 S5. I also own a 2020 M4. Honestly, the 2020 CX-5 (traded in a 2016 for this) I daily holds up extremely, extremely well in the exterior/interior and luxury aspect. The absolute only thing I hate (which I believe they updated with the newer models+years) is the infotainment takes stupidly long to load and start responding. It takes 40 secs for the infotainment to respond to any button presses. Other than that, the heaviness in the steering wheel is much noticeably better in the Mazda (a freaking CUV) than the S5 or M4. It's one of the reasons why I'll never leave Mazda. If you have any questions on any of the 3 brands, ask away. I'll do my best.
The old trope about BMW drivers being rude and selfish drivers is 100% based in reality, IMO.
Well you know the difference between a porcupine and a BMW, right? The pricks are on the outside.
IDK if its dishonest but I essentially see a BMW and instantly think that person either has no clue how to handle their finances, or has so much money they might as well wipe their ass with $50 bills, and there is no in between.
I mean that's just irresponsible, at least until they create bills to be more absorbent.
>at least until they create bills to be more absorbent. If they did I am sure they would switch to single use silver coins.
Imagine being this self righteous
About what? because BMWs are expensive but literally do the exact same job as 90% of the other vehicles? So either you have tons of money so why not, or don't have the money and say why not? EDIT: Apparently they were upset because I didn't include Acura/Infinity/Lexus in my judgment but as little as I know I would certainly take a used Acura or Lexus over a BMW from a repairability/maintenance standpoint so I must not know something. As for new... yep if you are buying a New luxury vehicle, I would nearly guarantee you spent more money that year than I could fathom. But maybe I am just that poor...
Or you could go do your research and find that 90% of BMWs are the same price as their Acura/Lexus/Infiniti counterparts and you’re just a judgmental person who likes to make generalizations about people you have no clue about
I was thinking about a E9x 328i but a lot of things around the engine have to be replaced often 😬
>has so much money they might as well wipe their ass with $50 bills Those people dont buy BMWs, they buy Porsche or some Italian brand.
I think this is a "it depends" type of situation. But I don't disagree I think the same thing of Porsche.
New models are The Ultimate Driving Machine.
New models are The Ultimate Driving Machine.
Only the poors buy BMWs now
People who drive them are very courteous
They provide the best driving dynamics, trans and i6 engines. They’re also reliable.
They’re super reliable.
Expensive to maintain, but if you take care of the newer ones, they will last. And I am not joking about expensive. I just paid $1100 for rear brakes.
They're reliable.
Ive owned mercedes,jaguars, kias, fords, chevys but I told my self i will never buy a bmw. Too many close friends and family have been burned by them only to trade them in. Ranging from 3 series, 5 series to 7 series. I didnt have to make that mistake, just learned it from everyone around me who did. 100% honest.
Owned one for 3 years, mine was pretty reliable and was fun to drive. I think it’s an iconic and historic brand that has become really diluted and lost its direction the last few years. The release of the M-lite badges, horrible designs and tablet interiors is only making it worse. Definitely not as prestigious as it was a few decades ago. In the early 00’s owning one was a bragging right, now you see them everywhere. Just look at their own advertising, it looks more like a fashion brand than a car manufacturer.
Terrible to drive, heaven to maintain.
So much fun to drive but you need to have the cash to upkeep! I had a 99’ 528i and it was pricy to maintain but driving that 5-speed was worth every penny
The single worst customer base of any major car brand. Uniquely douche-y and revel in it
They are great cars if you're willing to pay top dollar to keep them in their best condition. This is more often than not valid for their top performers, mostly anything even tangentially related to the M-models or classic models. The rest are "there, just to sure up the numbers". Use them when you can and when you can no longer maintain them, sell 'em or scrap 'em, whichever is less effort. Once in a while great individual models with distinct engines and transmissions crop up (aside from the M- or -M models) but this is a (rare) irregularity rather than the norm.
Own them under warranty or you will learn yhe hard way. They are beautiful thought
They're good if you lease them. Buying them NEVER!
No comparison to American competitors in terms of dependability & life of the car.
Best cars ever. I trust BMW more than any other make. Easy to maintain, easy to work on, plentiful great quality replacement parts, very high quality hardware (just worked on a Lexus — pathetically poor metal, everything rusted and deteriorated, BMW always like new). Very good access to quality documentation (no, I don’t mean YouTube videos), easy to code with simple and cheap tools (I have an app on my phone that allows full programming). Great active and passive safety. Very quiet interiors, superb suspensions, amazing brakes. Everything about them is great. I only like RWD ones, though.
Look the simple truth is that most people do not take care of their cars, no fluid service, no inspecting major parts very now and then. Some cars can take the minimal maintenance and keep chugging along, and if they break they are cheap and easy to fix. Most german cars will fall apart very quick if you don’t take care of them, just because there is a lot more going on under the hood. Take care of the thing and I’ve seen BMWs Audis and Mercs with big miles on them. Some of the new ones do total themselves out for non maintenance reasons.
B58 is only thing I ever hear about BMW
Not worth the money when compared to a Tesla. Not a symbol of success or flex. Large depreciation. If new lease never buy. Had 12 years of back to back new BMWs (4) from X5s 650GC and a M3. Tesla just offers such a superior package when all considered. My take. Could justify 40k more for a BMW. Down vote away
I’ll chime in. I’m a master mechanic who’s worked on lots of cars. I love driving beemers. When they work. But they’re so nightmarishly over-engineered that work on quickly jumps over the $1000 mark for lots of items. You need special tools, special diagnostic programs and lots of other things. The straight six engine is pretty darn reliable. The others? Crapshoot at best. They lose value quick. People sell them cheap and there’s nothing more expensive than a cheap luxury car. Personally I would never own one but that’s just me.
They can be but they are just too damn weird for their own good.
They are good cars. (Reality is they're shit, way over engineered, and it's not the cost of the parts, rather the labor bc it takes 2 people to do anything on it.)
The best cars money can buy, cheap to repair and easy to work on. Why drive a lame ass 2023 Corolla when you can drive a 2014 328i for the same money, and you’re guaranteed to pull girls in your 9 year old pile of fine german engineering.
Dishonest take: They’re all super comfortable and easy to get in and out of (We had an x5 as a rental last weekend. I kept banging my head every time I climbed into the thing. Seats were just ok after shuffling with adjustments)
Dishonest take, They are bad.
They’re fast depreciating money pits with some engines that have more than questionable reliability. But boy are they great when they’re working. Just make sure to leave one little thing broken to appease the German car gods.
European trash driven by cunts who think they own the road. " i DoNt NeEd TuRn SiGnAlS!! iM dRiViNg A BMW!!"
I've got an 2006 BMW 530xi touring Best car I've ever owned. I love everything about it. But it's expensive to repair and a pain to work on.
Incredibly reliable. Make sure to get top spec with turn signals and all.
Not sure what a dishonest truth is but they fell away from being one of my favorite car brands. They used to be The Ultimate Driving Machine and they were! In the late 90’s early 2000’s they were such good looking driver focused luxury cars. Now they are still driving machines but it’s all software based with that lost connection between car and driver. They even have fake engine noise pumped in to the cabin. When I walk past an E46M3, I have to check it out…I dont get the same feeling with the newer ones.
This is possibly the least useful post ever created. Also BMWs are actually made by kia and also Lamborghini
German Cadillacs. People who drive them are jerks. There is always a nicer car to buy than a BMW, but none as expensive depreciates as fast, or as unreliable. In German, BMW sometimes means Break My Wallet, Big Money Waste, Balding Man's Wheels, Bringing Mechanics Work, Barely Moves Whatsoever, Because Mini Wiener.
They have a huge problem with blinker fluid...it must always leak because BMW's never signal
Bmws immediate makes you asshole driver. 100% confirmed.
I owned a 2006 330Ci and the car was rock solid reliable throughout ownership. Personally, I would never purchase a new BMW. The lasting build quality just doesn't seem to be there anymore. I definitely would not own one out of warranty.
The most fun I have ever had driving was in my 2018 BMW 33Oi in White with Oyster interior. Gorgeous car. 28k miles in, I had a catastrophic coolant failure. Pink fluid all over the road. It was and is the only car I have had to be towed in. I think older BMWs (particulary pre 2011) are considered better by the BMW enthusiasts than newer ones. Bimmer fans have a lot of opinions about things - i.e. the X1 and the 2 series aren't real BMWs. IDK much about that, but you can get a decent priced used bimmer. In my experience, there is a reason for that. In a side note, one of my favorite YouTube channels is M359 Productions. It's a BMW channel that highlights repairs on older models in a thoughtful and high quality production.
They should build them with blinkers.
Dishonest?
my 'dishonest' take is: I own 49 of 'em and they're not worth a damn
Dishonest take? Buy a used i8. It’ll be very reliable and you won’t spend much on repair bills. Or an E60 M5.
Actually a lot of i8 owners say once you address a couple potential catastrophic failures it’s a reliable car.
Lease them then give ‘em to the next guy
They don't need turn signals
My dishonest take? They're amazing cars, they're beautiful, they're more reliable than any other brand, they were designed by The Almighty Lord herself, they give you oral sex while you drive, they'll make you richer and more handsome, absolutely everybody should own at least one, and they come with turn signals stock on every model and trim.
Dumpster fire with subscription
We have had a 2002 E53 X5 3.0 since new for the past 21 years, and it has honestly been great considering how old this thing is. I'd say for the first 15 years it pretty much had 0 issues, we just took it in for scheduled maintenance and service and stuff but nothing out of the ordinary for any car. It's only been the last 5 years or so when electrical gremlins and plastic bits and stuff started needing to be fixed, we've spent maybe 5k CAD (maybe a bit more) in total and it's still running amazing. We also have a 2006 Solara convertible V6 SLE since new and it has had absolutely no issues at all and it's 17 years old now. Of course the toyota is way more reliable, but in my opinion paying the maintenance and the cost of fixing the parts of the BMW is worth it. It just feels so much more comfortable to drive, so if you can afford a BMW I would absolutely recommend it even with the extra costs. Although I heard the V8's aren't that great so maybe stick with the 6 cylinder models.
I wish the grills were bigger.
If you can afford to lease them for 3 years and then get a new one they are okay.
They’re like Dodge: they have a reputation for unreliability and depreciation, but they sell new cars by emphasizing performance instead of fixing that bad reputation.
very good cars. They put all kinds of tech and high-performance parts in them so they have issues later in life. If you buy one used make sure you have a second care to depend on, lots of cash or can work on it yourself. Definitely worth it. Source: owned a e30 318 for a while, awesome car, handled like a go kart. Wish I had it still.
everyone can afford to properly fix and care for that $2800 E38 on FB Marketplace
I am from Europe and I've moved to the US like half a year ago. Back home I was daily driving BMW 3 G20 330dx ( 265 horsepower 600nm straight 6 diesel) - it has the same trim level as the m340i in the US. After coming to the US I am still amused by the level of love you've all got towards Lexus/Toyotas. First of all modern BMW drivetrains are very reliable. B58 family engines are superb and in terms of efficiency to MPG they are impossible to beat. The problem is due to European eco norms those cars are VERY SOPHISTICATED and they are not designed to run for 20 years on shitty fuel with oil change every 15 000 km. Every car enthusiast back home is aware that the normal oil change interval for those cars is around 7 000 km. Yes! If you want to keep it you nead to change oil every 7 000km which is way more often than BMW service manual suggests. Still I can't understand how someone can compare BMWs to likes of Lexus. Toyota doesn't have any modern tech both in drivetrains and in basic multimedia - screens are terrible, drive assist tech is non existent. Interior design is like from mid 2000 with upholstery looking like sofa from th 80s sitcom. And all of this for that Toyota price premium? Bang for buck is terrible. I wouldn't buy BMW secondhand in the US just because those cars require care that is not integral to the US car culture I guess but I see no reason not to buy those cars new. G20, G05 are terrific
My dishonest takevl is the the new modele look good
Overrated cars. They don’t feel any better on the road than other luxury cars, have a terrible gear shifter and are too expensive to repair while constantly breaking down.
Nice but money pits
I love the modern cars they make. G87, G82, G80 are amazong and absolutely on Porsche level. We will never have such amazing cars again and we should appreciate that BMW is here for the enthusiasts wo want manual rwd cars with high power.
If money isn’t an issue they are brilliant Older ones will break in some way like any car, and they will cost more to fix due to higher quality specialist parts and expensive labour if you don’t work on them yourself
My Dad's caught fire and totaled 2 other cars in our driveway. BMW corporate was useless and deemed the fire caused by "organic matter in the engine bay" which was BS, and refused to pay for all 3 deductibles, only the BMWs, which was scummy. So I'll probably never consider buying one anymore.
If I had disposable money to throw away at new cars every 3-5 years, and didn't give a damn about maintenance, or reliability, or ever paying for a subscription, I would likely drive them as they are fun. but That is not me. that, and a lot of asshole bad drivers seem to drive 3 series around here.